Torment...not Pain

Luke 16:23, And being in torments in Hades...
verse 24, Then he cried...for I am tormented in this flame.

When we think of hell, what do we really think?

Do we see it as a few flames burning the unrepentant? Or do we see it as hot as, say, a volcano, with the flesh of the unrepentant being consumed. The flesh falling from them.

I know it is not nice to consider. But it is harsh reality.

To reach the lost, and we must, is not easy. But God said with Him all things are possible.

There is no need to reply. It is just there to make us think.

If there really is a great chasm fixed between heaven and hell, how could Lazarus hear the rich man?

How can those in heaven enjoy their time there if they incessantly hear the pleas and cries of those in torment?

No need to reply- just there to make us think.

Is that all you got?

"But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Luke 12:5

Get that... after He has killed you, then you go to hell. I don't think soul sleep or annihilation is scary to anyone.

My only point is that the story is not literal and has points that cannot be taken literally. It is no more literal that the prodigal son parable.

I think it could very well be literal.

Hi Enid,

Definitely. The Good News of Christ our Saviour must be preached to all nations.

But,

FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

WHO was that rich man? Was he a heathen?

Blessings

Hi Nigel,

LUKE 11:37 - 12:12

WHO was Jesus talking to?

WHO was He talking about?

WHAT was He against?

Seems to me, when I read scripture, that Jesus came to save sinners and it is the self-righteous who will go to "hell".
Then, what really is "hell" and "fire"?? Is what that is commonly taught correctly taught? And of course those who condemn others to "hell" are sure they themselves will not go there. But it is not man himself but Jesus who is the Judge and "there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known".

Blessings

Hi Jade. It seems clear to me, from these passages of scripture and many others, that hell is a place of eternal separation from God, a place of fire and brimstone, of eternal torment, the people there knowing that they rejected every offer of mercy and forgiveness and did abominable sins against God their whole lives.

It takes deliberate ignorance and twisting of very obvious scriptures to deny the stark, terrifying reality of hell. (And saying that I am not insulting anyone who holds a different viewpoint.)

I know I will not go there because 1. I trust God's promises to me and, 2. I know Jesus and have the witness of the Holy Spirit that I am a child of God.

I think everyone here (including me) should pray for a fresh vision of how exceedingly sinful sin really is, how offensive and hurtful it is to a holy God. People deserve much worse than hell for what they have done.

99% burning in torment for all eternity
1% escape

That doesn’t sound much like a head-crushing to me.

With those numbers there appears to be a clear winner for the ages but no one wants to admit who it is.

It amazes me how few people stop to really consider what their views say (slander) about God.

Let’s think about this succinctly: God knew man would sin before he was created; he knew in advance that everyone would sin but He created them anyway; he knew that a huge majority would never have a realistic chance of responding to the gospel, and that an exceedingly small percentage of those who do hear would respond favorably, yet He created a special place of never ending torture for the vast majority of his creation that He knew in advance would have to go there because of the system HE created.

That, my friends, is insanity, and, if true, means God is decidedly not good.

So perhaps we need to think more carefully about what we have always accepted as true.

Dear brother,
Not sure what’s going on but,...
let’s take these 1 by 1 -

You wrote; " he knew in advance that everyone would sin but He created them anyway”
" he knew that a huge majority would never have a realistic chance of responding to the gospel,”
" and that an exceedingly small percentage of those who do hear would respond favorably, yet He created a special place of never ending torture for the vast majority of his creation that He knew in advance would have to go there because of the system HE created.”

You then, rightly, state that would be a form of insanity IF it were true....

So may I ask you dear brother to provide scriptures for the three above presuppositions quotes above?
That would provide a basis for us to discuss the facts without all the emotional conjecture:)

You don’t really need the fluff- all that’s needed is the premise that 1) God created the system (if not Him, then who?), and the premise 2) that He created a place of eternal torture to house those who failed in the system He created. Regardless what percentage you think is accurate, I think the consensus would be that far far far more people fail than not in this system.

I don’t have a problem at all with premise 1- it’s premise 2 that gives me pause. Why it doesn’t give everybody pause is beyond me.

Hi Todd. Just a query. Do you have problem with the premise that God creatied a hell to send Satan and the fallen angels to?

Todd, no offense but it's pretty easy to poke holes in your argument.

Read Romans 1. People know instinctively and from their God given conscience that there is a God. They suppress the truth in unrighteousness. The whole world is in darkness and rebellion against God; they aren't people who have made a few mistakes but are basically good, and are sent to hell by a bloodthirsty, tyrannical God.

God has given people free will, and if the majority of the human race stubbornly refuse to give up their sin and choose to go to hell, God has to let them.

I recommend you listen to Ten Shekels And A Shirt by Paris Reidhead. "It wasn't trying to convince good man that he was in trouble with a bad God; it was to convince bad men that they deserved the wrath and anger of a good God."

Read these words directly from the mouth of Jesus: "Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." Luke 13:23,24

You wrote; " You don’t really need the fluff- all that’s needed is the premise”

Are you suggesting that the scriptures themselves as a basis is "fluff”???
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your words? But it seems you begin with a premise that may not have a firm footing in the scriptures themselves.

It’s clear from your posts over the years that you’re view of this topic is somewhat nuanced in that it isn’t a "traditional” position but it seems for some reason now there is a hostility, even a contemptuous position of intolerance for what the scriptures clearly and plainly state.... Our unwillingness to accept them doesn’t negate the them or the position they present.

Might I ask if there is a personal reason you reject this doctrine? Perhaps like Francis Chan, someone close to you whom you loved and was a "good” person died apart from Christ? And it just doesn’t seem fair or just?

No Fletcher- my position has not changed at all. My official position is that I do not know what the final fate of the wicked is. I believe there are 3 positions that can be amply supported by scripture if they are given honest consideration. The vast majority of evangelical Christians refuse to give honest consideration to two of these possibilities but fall all over the third. And when I say "honest consideration” I don’t mean reading a proponent of one view tearing apart the others. You have to read the best defenses of each position from respectable persons who hold them. I have certainly done so which is why I can honestly say that I do not know which view is correct.

I am not hostile toward any scripture, but perhaps as I grow older I do get impatient with those who say they love God with all their hearts but are so willing to lay the most horrible and monstrous things at His doorstep without a second thought. I suspect one day people will hear from the Lord: "How could you have thought that about Me?” That being said, I may hear: "How could you not have believed that about Me?” Of course I think that is much less likely 🙂

Todd. Ito suggest that the " 3rfd view” is monstrous, insane and represents an evil God is not an "I don’t know” attitude and is more than mere impatience. with those who hold to it. Finally, if the 3rd view is true, saying those things aboht God is "problematic”.

Fair enough- and that’s an understandable position.
But isn’t it a measure of maturity to allow others to express and discuss their understanding of scripture and or doctrine without being swiped at? Especially so long as they’re not "teaching error” and are expressing a heart of humility to reach the lost?
Idk bro, it seems to me that we should do as Paul says and "strive to maintain unity” and not squabble over things that again, wether we agree with their conclusions or not, are pretty consistent in the scriptures.

I mean it’s pretty hard to argue with passages like, "knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade men” and "how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation” and "if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the sinner and ungodly appear” just to name a few of the new covenant passages that seem to clearly express there is a severity to Gods wrath that is, according to scripture, impartial and without respect of persons.

Regarding sister Enid’s initial post, (in my understanding) if Lord Jesus uses actual peoples names then it’s a historical event and not a figurative parable... as in this case He was siting an actual scenario that happened-

Regarding the "premises” you sited,... honestly I think we all eventually get confronted by these types of questions especially relating to these most serious and sobering subjects found in our faith... resulting, in many cases, with us coming to very different conclusions. In many cases these conclusions are being informed more by our experience and culture rather than the Spirit of truth. When I searched the scriptures as to how to responsibly handle this fact it was very clear- approach the subject and brethren with all meekness and humility. I can’t say sister Enid is right or wrong in her understanding of this subject but it seems apparent that her heart has been pricked by her understanding of this subject and this has resulted in her having a desire to reach the lost.... and that looks like how the Jesus that saved me works in the hearts of those whom He has already redeemed and are being saved🙏🏻

In any case, tho we may have different understanding of this doctrine, I love you and am grateful for how God has used you to help me in my walk over the years cause you might be surprised how big of an influence you’ve been in my life <

It is never my intention to "swipe at" anyone, and if I have done so I apologize. I do appreciate other viewpoints.

Having said that, I believe removing hell from ones theology is dangerous. The Holy Spirit comes to convince men of "sin, righteousness and judgment to come." If there is no punishment for the wicked, why should men fear God? I know many atheists who assert that when you die, that's it, it's just like going to sleep. Exactly what difference is there in those atheist's beliefs than someone who believes in soul sleep or annihilation?

If you go to a church that teaches hell does not exist, get out as fast as you can. It's error, and it's a grievous misconception of God's character. God is loving, but He is also just.

Todd, I love you. I don't believe you are unsaved, but even believers can wander into error. Some of the Moravians, even Peter Bohler, who John Wesley was converted through, did not believe in hell. Wesley reproved them for it, though he did not separate himself from them because of it. I have to remain firm in my stance that eternal judgment is a vital doctrine.

Brothers and Sisters.

This is more than a theological debate of preferences. Jesus, Paul and Peter made clear warnings to God’s professing church and to His servants that they be aware that He was coming to judge with vengeance and fire. He told His beloved disciples that they should not neglect
doing the will of the Father, abiding in Him, doing the work He called them to do or fail to employ the "talent(s)” He gave them for good or they would be thrown in the fire with the unbelievers and hypocrits. To deny the consequences of these warnings (eternal punishment ) is to cause everyone to ignore the warnings. This is very serious and a wrong understanding passed along to others would have dramatic impact on Jesus’ very words and intentions with the warnings. I do love my brethren, but we need to not let love diminish the seriousness of the issue. It does have consequence on souls.

Hi Nigel,

These are my thoughts:

Yes, God hates sin.

Ps 5:4-6 ”“
For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness;
No evil dwells with You.
The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do iniquity.
You destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

Sin separates man from God and lands man in hell.

Hell is that place of darkness and torment without the Light, Life, Love, Peace and Joy of God.

The EXCEEDINGLY GOOD News is that God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved (John 3:17).

We must open men’s eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Christ (Acts 26:18).

May we have kindness and compassion for lost sinners and pray for all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:1-6).

Matt. 5:43-46 ”“
You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

How great and glorious will be that eternal day when at the name of Jesus EVERY knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER (Phil. 2:10-11).

For ALL things have been created by the Lord Jesus and FOR Him (Col. 1:16)

FIRE

Fire burns out the dross.

When fire enters darkness, it gives the light that swallows up the darkness

Jade, I absolutely do love sinners; in fact I speak to them much more about God's goodness than I do about hell. (One man I work with said "You care about me more than I care about myself!")

But our message must be balanced. "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God." Romans 11:22

Maybe I can ask a rhetorical question:

What is the very worst thing that an all-powerful being could do?

Answer: Lie

What is the worst thing an all powerful being could do?

Depends on what that being says is the worst thing He could do. Not what we say. The worst thing a perfect being could do is to do that which He abominates according to His own revelation of Himself.........To condemn the righteous and to justify the wicked (Proverbs 17:5). That statement is why the cross is necessary, why Jesus suffered and died, why those who are in Christ do not and why those who do not know God or obey His Gospel are condemned for their own sin and guilt. To become righteous and avoid guilt and condemnation, we must become righteous by being brought into Christ who has been raised for our justification.

Perhaps substitutionary atonement is the issue in all this and not Hell.

Todd posted,

"Maybe I can ask a rhetorical question:"

"What is the very worst thing that an all-powerful being could do?"

Since the truth is that there's only One "all-powerful being", the One and Only True God, the question is not so much of a rhetorical question as it is a question which fits more with it being a non sequitur-ical question.

Please try again Todd.

If I could, I would love to weigh in with a thought or two on the discussion. I wanted to comment on the OP and how it might be a key to the current discussion.

First, I believe the rich man and Lazarus to be a parable told by Jesus to make a very important point. If you look at the conversation leading up to the parable, you will see Luke 16:15. "Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.". Now look at the story and pay close attention to verses 27-31. "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

He was dealing with the hard and impenitent heart of the Pharisees and showing them that if they did not believe in Him through the law and the prophets, they would also not believe even if He came back from the dead. I don't believe the story has anything to teach us about heaven or hell any more than the parable of the talents has anything to teach us about investing money.

That being said, if this parable is not a teaching about heaven and hell, then we have to look at the other scriptures that weigh in explicitly about the topic. I have spent quite a bit of time doing so. I was raised in a group that taught total destruction of the wicked, or annihilation as most call it. I had to really question that belief when I stepped outside of that group. So, I studied. I found that I am not 100% sure about it, but the weight of scripture seems to lead me to the opinion that destruction of the wicked is probably the most Biblically defensible, even if it flies in the face of what a seeming majority of Christians believe.

Matthew 10:28 says to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Hell.

The word perish in John 3:16 means to destroy fully or to abolish. So Jesus tells us here that whoever believes on Him will not be destroyed.

Paul uses similar language when he says that God will destroy both the meats and those who eat them (the bellies).

2Thess 2:8 says that the wicked God will, "consume with the spirit of his mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

My point is that it is not Biblically "out there" to believe that the wicked will be annihilated rather than suffer eternal torment. In fact, I have never found any scriptures that explicitly state that they will be tormented eternally without some amount of implication by the interpreter.

I also believe it is more consistent with the nature of God, as Todd has said, to destroy the wicked rather than punish them with pain and torment eternally. Think about this. The Revelation is explicit about Satan and his end, it says that He, along with the demonic host, will be cast into the lake of fire and there be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The reason given is that they deceived man. God created man for fellowship and to bear His image on Earth. Man did not rebel in the sense that Satan rebelled. Man was deceived and sin entered. So I believe it more consistent with God and with His purpose for mankind and the love He has for mankind to believe that those who were deceived and followed the Deceiver will be destroyed.

Just my opinion, and I submit it as, perhaps, another perspective.

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:15

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. - Revelation 20:10

Clearly, the lake of fire is torment and pain. Unquenchable thirst (for the sinner) and a worm that never dies; always consuming.

The parable if the rich man in purple is about people who do not love their brother in need who testify of the horrors of hell. It is a lake of fire.
It is just a parable, but as a shadow of the reality that is far worse.

This conversation is undercutting the warnings of Jesus and emasculating the OT prophesies. Most people who love their sin and thus hate God do not want to go to heaven if it’s all about worshipping Him. They are content with living it up now and dying finally when sin is done. This is a sad discussion.

Agree, Nigel.

Blessings

1Jn.1:5,
" ¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
"IN HIM”. ..? ,... we are in Him aren’t we?

* God, ..Who is The Word, is The Light, to enlighten us to His Word... to quicken His Light that He has put within us.
In The Light there is no gray areas, it is either Light,... or it of the hue of darkness.

We must go back and study what He has said. Did Jesus teach any part of darkness or gray areas, except to repent or perish ,... (turn completely around from all sin,..and defilement?

The gospel of God,.. the gospel of the kingdom,....
Heaven, "The goodness of God ",... the "I Am The Way”, who made a Way for us,to go through His Spirit,The Truth”,which is The Word of God, that we might have Life,..His "Life” lived out in us.
OR,...
Hell, "the severity of God”

Is there a shadow of turning w/ God?
The Word says He changes not.

””””””””””-
elizabeth

FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

Heb. 12:29 ”“
For our God is a consuming fire.

Matt. 3:11 (YLT) ”“
I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire,

Comment:
Believers are immersed in the Holy Spirit and immersed in fire.

I agree totally Robert, it is sad when people question basic Bible doctrine. One of the first things God did when He convicted me of sin is convince me of the reality of hell. I was, without exaggeration, absolutely terrified of hell. It kept me up nights.

Not sure if anyone here is questioning the reality of hell. Certainly not me.

Thank you, Nigel, for that thought,...
Re: Nigel, "but our message must be balanced. "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God." Romans 11:22”

You are so right,
We see a balancing scale, ..Heaven in on one side and Hell is on the other.
I don’t see anything in between but a loving and a just God, through His loving son, Jesus, pouring His Grace upon us, trying to persuade us to go,.. walk, in the path that He has for us.

We must eat His Bread daily,... there is Life there,..He is willing, but are we willing, or do we throw His bread to the ground, and eat our bread, that does not satisfy the hunger of our souls?

I know this is strong, ..strong for me too, .. but is it of urgency for strength and truth that is so important ? Now

Surly, in His love I speak,

””””””””””””
elizabeth

Todd posted,

"Not sure if anyone here is questioning the reality of hell. Certainly not me."

You're playing with fire, Todd.

It's your understanding of hell, not your believing that there is a word spelled h-e-l-l.

Also, you never followed up on your last post where you asked a "rhetorical" question, as you called it.

No problem- What is the worst thing the one and true God could do?

I would weigh in on this matter to remind us that we all know that where there is sin there is suffering. There are many, many people in the world living in a practical hell and it's getting worse every day. We may not be able to reconcile what things people suffer with the doctrine that God is love. But no intelligent person gives up facts because he cannot explain the philosophy behind them.

I am convinced that the sure teaching of God's word is that there is a hell, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matthew 25:41)

From a mere human perspective, hell as described in the bible is so terrible and unbearable, that almost all of us would want to shrink back and lessen its severity, limit its time or think of an escape in anihilation or purgatory.

God's gift of his son to the world was unlimited and infinitive. When God provides salvation for all man at the highest possible price for Him, and we reject it, I can perceive eternal unbearable hell as a just punishment.

I have been called to a death bed last week. I quoted all relevant scripture of salvation to the man and asked him if he wants to confess his sin and believe. He gave no clear answer. I repeated some of the passages and expounded them a bit, still no response.

I finally left with a heavy heart, but even the believing son and daughter agreed there is nothing else that could be done.

Actually all in heaven will one day agree of the eternal punishment of every sinner, even if they had been their loved ones on earth!

Should this not create a sense of urgency as Flechter said:

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade man..

To paraphrase a well known old saint:

If I had the power of God I would change everything. If I had the wisdom of God I would change nothing.

There is nothing that causes man to think his own thoughts of God instead of what God reveals His thoughts to be so much as a misguided and misunderstood definition of what God's love is and what love with power would or should do coupled with a very low estimate of His hatred of sin.

Often, these two misunderstandings have called into question God's character and led to faulty applications of God's Word more than any other reason.

Men tend to suggest God's love of His Son would never allow Him to punish His own Son for our sin. Men suggest God would never punish us made in His own image for our sin because He loves us. Yet God loved Jesus so much and still poured out His holy righteous anger and wrath on Him. God is love is still true even on the cross because God's love hates sin. We don't mind God pouring out His wrath on angels whom He created ( in love ) for their forkenown rebellion but somehow our rebellion in not worthy of that. Strange. I would suggest man centered thinking (not love but hubris) but can't be sure.

Robert,
What an eye-opening thought, as well as others here, on this subject.
Appreciate the wisdom, ...and the thoughts,and time.

””””””””
elizabeth

People do not like to think of hell. They will work to minimize its reality yet not succeeding quite well.

Reading this thread reminded me of a similar one that was written here on SI and below is its link. I had asked for the text of a tract "Papa, Hell is So Hot!" It was one that was widely distributed back in the 1950s and it had made a profound impression on me.

We know the scriptures teach about its existence but are there any human interest stories that can verify it? I say "yes". Anyhow, here is the link:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?forum=35&topic_id=9159&post_id=69436&viewmode=thread&order=1#69436

Sandra

It is noble-minded to examine scripture to see if what we are told are so.

Acts 17:11 ”“
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

If the vast majority of mankind must still be punished and consigned to unimaginably horrible eternal torment in hell when God had already punished His own Son for the sins of the WHOLE world (1 John 2:2), would not the enemy say, "Because the Lord’s sacrifice could not save the whole world as purposed, therefore, the vast majority of mankind must be punished and tormented forever in hell”?

Cf. Num. 14:15-16

What glory is that to God?

Consider these scripture:

Isa. 26:9 ”“
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

v. 11 ”“
Indeed, fire will devour Your enemies.

v.14 (NKJV) ”“
They are dead, they will not live;
They are deceased, they will not rise.
Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,
And made all their memory to perish.

These say to me that inhabitants of the earth are made righteous by God's judgements and enemies are destroyed forever. I don't see eternal torment.

And the latest in the scripture tells us:

Revelation 20:10-15 NASB
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Judgment at the Throne of God

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I would like to read/believe that people in hell will be totally annihilated but I cannot find that concept in the NT at all.

Sandra

Do the wood and hay and straw that are burnt in the fire disappear totally and forever or do they continue to burn forever??

God destroys to save.

God discards the entire old creation and brings in a whole new creation

In Adam ALL die. In Christ ALL are made alive.

I do not add to that or subtract from that.

Sister Jade

I know you like to restrict yourself to Scripture so the Scripture answer to your question is:

1 After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
2 for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality, and has avenged on her the blood of his servants."
3 Once more they cried out, "Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up forever and ever." - Revelation 19:1-3

Robert, WHO is that great prostitute?

Also, you have not responded to the scriptures I quoted.

Rev. 18:21
Then a mighty angel picked up a stone like a large millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, In this way, Babylon the great city will be thrown down violently AND NEVER BE FOUND AGAIN.

Some think the false church, some think Rome, some think the Jews, some think the wicked world or even America. No matter which you prefer, it always represents people. Always.

As to your Scriptures, it is easy to suggest that Jesus can suffer for sins but for His blood not to be applied to those who do not come humbly to the altar of the High Priest for sprinkling. The blood is shed, it is sufficient but it must be sought, sprinkled and applied. Our hearts are sprinkled and washed clean for forgiveness as Ezekiel 36 makes clear.

Whatever it is, it is "never be found again.” Does that sound like extinction or eternal torment?

And, yes, of course, men must repent to be saved.

Where are the intercessors?

Ezek. 22:30 ”“
I searched for a man among them who would repair the wall and stand in the gap before me on behalf of the land so that I might not destroy it, but I found no one.

7 or so years ago, after I had been confronted by a whole series of "doctrines” and concepts that were dressed in Christianese but were not founded in the scriptures (tho could be referenced by cherry picking the texts), I wound up questioning allot of the traditional positions on fundamental doctrines. Ultimately this led me to take a different approach in searching out the truth. After noticing that several if not most of the epistles would be totally unnecessary if these concepts of "universalism” - "no eternal torment” were true and remarking about it, it was suggested that I start over,... imagining if I was on a deserted island and had never heard of Jesus or the Bible etc (not indoctrinated).. only having the inherent ideas and questions about the existence of a god that all humans seem to have, and a bible washed up on shore and I read it for the first time as an adult.... based on what the Bible says;
Would I believe in an eternal Heaven where people will live in communion with God ? Yes absolutely
Would I believe in a literal eternal hell where people are tormented? Yes absolutely!
Would I believe in the power of prayer? Yes absolutely
Would I believe that Jesus is the only begotten son of God? Yes absolutely
Would I believe that He died on a cross and rose again? Yes Absolutely
Would I believe that God the Father was mighty to save? Yes absolutely
Would I believe that He made a way for me to know Him and thereby be saved? Yes absolutely
Would I believe that He requires me to cooperate with Him, allowing Him to lead me so as to live a holy life of righteousness thru faithful obedience? Yes absolutely
Would I believe that He was patient when I made a misstep? Yes absolutely
Would I believe that I must repent (stop serving self and serve God)? Yes absolutely
Would I believe that a person must be born again to enter His kingdom?
Yes absolutely
Would I believe that God, (because of His goodness not mine) has promised to provide me with everything I need to do everything He requires? Yes absolutely
Would I believe that He would put His spirit inside of me so as to lead, guide, direct, inform, convict, convince, comfort, minister and open His word to me? Yes absolutely
Would I believe that God loved me and wanted to be in communion with me? Yes absolutely
Would I believe He had a plan for how He wanted to use me to advance His Kingdom? Yes absolutely
Would I believe that He expected me to respond to His influence (grace)? Yes absolutely
Etc, etc,..

Would I believe that He had done so that everyone gets to go to heaven? Not a chance
Would I believe that He would spare those whom disobeyed? Not a chance
Would I believe that He had made it so easy that we don’t have to whole heartedly participate, cooperating with Him in His plan? Not a chance
Would I believe that He expects us to figure it out on our own? Not a chance
Would I believe that He was wrong or somehow unjust in His inevitable judgement of mankind? Not a chance
Would it make sense that there would be an eternal reward for the obedient and not an eternal punishment for the disobedient? Not a chance
Would I think that God was unreasonable? Not a chance
Would I think that the God of the Bible was impotent or incapable? Not a chance
Etc, etc...

There is one absolutely undeniable narrative in the scriptures from beginning to end, the character of God is not only Holy but the person(s) of God wants to be known to His children- full stop. I mean He went to ALLOT OF TROUBLE to make Himself knowable to us and to be known by us,... considering how short our lives are in the light of eternity and how much trouble He’s gone to and how much of a fight the enemy puts up to deceive us,... the stakes are honestly most likely FAR GREATER than we imagine with the corresponding rewards & punishments being equally FAR BEYOND what we can even imagine.
At the end of having read the scriptures in this way (as though it was the first time/deserted island scenario) what has stuck out the most and been most sobering since then was all the warnings in the new covenant, I mean there are tons of them!!! The consequences of obedience/disobedience must be massive to make such sobering gestures so frequently so as to deliberately use the fear of such as a tactical measure! Remember it’s Gods love that is warning us! So for me, (and I can only speak for me) sister Enid’s original post rings true in my heart and calls me to action in faithfully seeking the lost and calling the wayward back home🙏🏻

"not found again” sounds like not found again. Either extinction or Hell will fit that.

I
Don’t think you have responded to Ginny or myself with the Tevelation passages.

If "never found again" fits hell..... God even sees the little sparrow that falls. Can hell which must be so vast to accommodate billions of men be lost from God's view??

What exactly have I not responded to in your Revelation quote?

If you are referring to the lake of fire in Ginny's post, I believe God's fire is a refining and purifying fire.

What about my question on intercession?

Jade, I think the theme of final judgment in OT and NT is an eternal wrath of God lasting forever against sinners. Here are some clear Scriptures. Destruction of souls can be an eternal destruction. Perhaps that is a more consistent understanding given the breadth of Scripture.

The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: "Who among us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?" - Isaiah 33:14

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. - Daniel 12:2

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. - Revelation 20:10

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11-15

to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. - Romans 2:7-8

wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever. - Jude 1:13

Sandra wrote:
"I would like to read/believe that people in hell will be totally annihilated but I cannot find that concept in the NT at all.”

With all due respect Sandra, you aren’t looking very hard. While it is true that almost every reference in the OT to final judgment sounds like annihilation, an equal or stronger case can be made from the NT.

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

No rest day or night in torment. Just curious how that is reconciled with the rest of the "strong" arguments against it. One can easily reconcile this Scripture with the Scriptures that set forth that dying in your sin results in destruction at judgment. "Destruction" is an eternal destruction ( the worm that never dies )
However, annihilation cannot in any way be reconciled with "no rest day or night" in torment after judgment. That fact alone argues against annihilation. Annihilation isn't in the Bible. "Destruction" is. Just becomes a question then of how to define destruction. The word is best defined by using Scripture with Scripture according to the context of judgment. Using common English definitions for spiritual and eternal ideas is sophistry at best.

Once again, as Todd has previously been a prime example, the argument for annihilation always begins in those who make it with "how could a loving God punish men that He says He loves unconditionally". Clark Pinnock and John Stott, like Todd. staked out the same musings about God's character before they launched into shifting their thinking into the same unorthodox opinion Todd has adopted even if he doesn't appear willing to say it outright.

Annihilation arguments never begin with a pure search for the truth. It always starts with a subjective human centered view of what God is like and then pursues interpretations of Scripture verses to support it.

Annihilation is just one easy step down to universalism. It is a practically easy leap to go from Jesus suffered the wrath of His Father for sin so that all who hate Him could "sleep forever", to Jesus suffered so that ALL men are completely forgiven, including those who hate Him, because He loves them so much and His work on the cross was accomplished, so that all that He loves shall be in heaven with Him forever.

Again, this debate is more important than it seems on its face. The warnings of Jesus and the epistles rise or fall on where one lands on this issue. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. A lack of the fear of the Lord is a continuation of foolishness and the destiny of the foolish is not a deep sleep. Jesus said "fear Him who can destroy body and soul in Hell". Perhaps He could also have said..... fear Him who can cause your body and soul to die in your sleep.

Revelation is a highly symbolic book, apocalyptic in nature. Its images shouldn’t be interpreted literally. This is particularly true of the phrase "forever and ever” since similar phrases are used elsewhere in Scripture in contexts where they clearly can’t literally mean "unending” (e.g. Gen 49:26; Ex 40:15; Nu 25:13; Ps 24:7).

Probably the most significant example of this is Isaiah 34:9-10, for it closely tracks the passage in Revelation (the writer of Revelation was likely referring to this apocalyptic passage in Is.) In this passage Isaiah says that the fire that shall consume Edom shall burn "night and day” and "shall not be quenched.” Its smoke "shall go up forever” and no one shall pass through this land again "forever and ever.” Obviously, this is symbolic, because the fire and smoke of Edom’s judgment is not still ascending today(the last time I checked). If this is true of the Isaiah passage, why should we insist on interpreting similar expressions in the book of Revelation literally?

Seriously Todd ? So Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the parable of the rich man in purple in Hell being tormented in fire was symbolic of annihilation? The passage in Revelation about Satan and the false prophet being tormented in the lake of fire forever is symbolic of annihilation? On a more positive note, the man who found a treasure in a field and sold all he had to get that treasure was symbolic joy? So the eternal joy of salvation and the night and day never ending pain of torment are symbolic? You can't have torment be only symbolic and yet the joy of salvation be literal.

Of course there are symbols. But symbols are mere shadows of the reality. They are not, however, mere hyperbole made up for creating false joy or false fears.

//Seriously Todd ?//

Yes, absolutely!

Todd,

I was wondering if you know whether the proponents of annihilationism believe that it is human beings only who are annihilated, or are satan and the angels who left their first estate (Jude 1:6) annihilated as well?

Savannah. To be consistent they have to.

Hi Robert,

The wonderful story of the Bible is the story of man’s redemption and of God’s fiery judgment that will remove every vestige of sin and wickedness from existence so that God’s heaven and earth will be completely holy and glorious.

Our God is mighty to save (Isa. 63:1)

Isa. 66:23 ”“
For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Isa 66:23 ”“
And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.

Isa. 33:14 ”“
Sinners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless.
"Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with continual burning?"

These are sinners in Zion i.e. sinners in the church.
So, perhaps believers should examine themselves first before condemning anyone to eternal torment?

Dan. 12:2 ”“
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

And so they will remain in disgrace and everlasting contempt but
for the purifying lake of fire!

Isa. 26:9 ”“
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Isa. 35:4 ”“
Behold, your God will come with vengeance;
The recompense of God will come,
But He will save you.

Isa. 54:7-8 ”“
For a brief moment I forsook you,
But with great compassion I will gather you.
With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment;
But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,” Says the LORD, your Redeemer.

Isa. 57:16-19 ”“
For I will not contend forever,
Nor will I always be angry;
For the spirit would grow faint before Me,
And the breath of those whom I have made.
Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry,
And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.
I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,
Creating the praise of the lips.
Peace, peace to him who is far and to him who is near," Says the LORD,
"and I will heal him."

Isa. 54:10 ”“
For the mountains may be removed and the hills may shake,
But My lovingkindness will not be removed from you,
And My covenant of peace will not be shaken," Says the LORD who has compassion on you.

Gen. 9:14-16 ”“
It shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow will be seen in the cloud, and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.

Yes ”“ God saves us because He loves us!

Isa. 63:9 ”“
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them

Rom. 11:32-36 ”“
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?
Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to Him again?
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Hi Jade. Love every Scripture you shared. The wonderful story of the Bible is also, I see as most important, the display of God’s glory in Jesus. Man’s redemption and a new heaven and earth are important and precious displays of His grace, but Jesus is supreme amongst and before all things.
Some see man as the center of the Bible story.

If anihilation were the end of sinners then
* the pleasures of a life of sin an option worth considering
* sin would not be so serious
* God would not be so holy
* The gospel not so urgent
* Jesus death on the cross a mere good deed
* Suffering and enduring persecution recomendable but not
* necessary

Believe in anihilation is not new, even mentioned in the
bible
Isaiah 22:13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and
killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine:
let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we shall die.

Your understanding of annihilationism (preferably conditional immortality) is incomplete. The unrepentant are not simply "snuffed out” at their death- they will be punished for their crimes- quite severely and in proportion to their guilt- God judges that. Some may need to be punished for a very long time indeed.

If folks are not deterred by severe punishment of indeterminate length, they will not be deterred by a threat of eternal punishment.

Enid,
I appreciate what you brought up here,.. It is, I believe of great importance.
We need to truly look at and face the importance and truth of reality.

I can identify through a testimony of the volcano and the severity of hell,.. and the true fear of God,..The God Who is The Word, Who speaks The Word, and it is final,... who is faithful to His Word,.. who cannot lie,..and can cast us there,..although He is long suffering w/us,.. and has great mercy.

You see, just a few years ago,(Understand,I was already a Christian,.. Christ already living in my heart, but I was not allowing,”it is no longer I that liveth. but Christ that liveth in me,.. I was allowing me to live,old self)
I had bad unforgivness in my heart toward a couple of people,... my Mother would say,’you have to forgive’,... but it would just annoy me.
But The Lord began to make real to me, that I had to forgive.
And I told The Lord,’ I know that you ,.. your Word is right and I am wrong,
But I just COULDNOT, forgive them.

I got sick , was in hospital, and the History Channel was on, and it was showing a volcano erupting w/ Black/ red hot lava, coming down a hillside.
The Lord spoke to me in that and said, ‘ if you do not forgive, hell is restless,.. it is never full enough, and that is where you are going to be, if you do not forgive.

So I determined that when I got home that I would.
When I got home , I called these persons up and ask forgiveness for overflowing in the unforgivness.
But I want you to know, I held back , just a little unforgivness,.. then in , I would say couple of months or so, a cotton mouth moccasin bit me,.. Hospital again.

The Word says, that judgement begins at the house of God, and if it begins with us, ... so I began to take thought, and So I ask ‘why Lord’,.?

He made me realize the holding on to ‘just the little bit’ of unforgivness, so I begged the Lord to take it away, and to fill my heart with love for these people.
He let me know ,’ I could not to talk about it, Not to think about it , if it came up, to brush it out of my mind’

And He filled my heart w/ love.

So it was He that helped me, when I could not help myself,... and I thank Him

Thank you Enid.
””””””””””””
elizabeth

Edited to add:
Th Word speaks of brimstone,...(This is where Sulfur comes from)
and come out of a volcano, out of the center of the earth, .. is that right ?

Elizabeth-

Have you considered that in the traditional view, the wicked are not being punished to learn something, as God’s chastenings are intended to do in this life. There’s nothing remedial at all about their torture. Instead, God keeps them in existence for the **sole purpose** of torturing them. This torture is without hope of ever being terminated or eased. After fifty quadrillion years of agony, the damned are no closer to completing their sentence than they were fifty quadrillion years earlier. Is this view really compatible with a God whose heart was expressed in Jesus’ dying prayer, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do?” (Lk 23:34)?

How can an eternal place of agony suffered by the vast majority of mankind at God’s hand be consistent with the idea that Jesus is the Victor in the cosmic battle with Satan?

Instead of a glorious universal eternal Kingdom unblemished by any stain whatsoever, a repellant dualism reigns throughout all eternity.

It's not just the "traditional" view, it's what scripture clearly teaches. The same Greek word eternal (aionios) is used for eternal life and eternal damnation. Sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If hell is not forever, then I can use the same logic and say that heaven is not forever.

And Todd, hell gets worse and worse throughout all eternity, just like heaven is a never ending revelation of Jesus that gets better and better.

I have to say it again; people that don't believe what the Bible clearly teaches on hell have a skewed concept of God.

//clearly teaches//

That is quite the overstatement.

Todd, the view that annihilation means extinguishment at death is not "incomplete”. Sounds very condescending. The majority of annihilationist hold that view.

If you read one different minority annihilism view it holds that sinners are punished but only for an unknown temporary time more fitting man’s idea of appropriate justice (which is humorous and hubris in itself) . This narrow view’s basic argument is that while sinners are thrown in the lake of fire into pain and torment for a time, eventually the fire goes out but the smoke of it is what goes on forever. That is a completely made up idea. When pushed to justify this view of "everlasting destruction”, the authors or contributors to this view invariably resort to " a loving and just God would never punish forever”. Again, it is man imposing his views on the interpretation of Biblical texts based on their estimation of what is loving and just. Again, this looks loving and sympathetic but is really just plain hubris.

Most Christians are not comfortable with eternal torment. Yet, they set aside personal preferences and submit humbly to God’s word. It would be fine if you would do that and sincerely say "I believe annihilism is right but if Im wrong it’s ok.” But, you haven’t said that. You’ve said Eternal torment is monstrous for a loving all powerful God. That is the rub.

As for whether sinners deserve 1 million years of punishment or everlasting punishment, I don’t have any interest in debating. The character of God isn’t at stake for me because whatever He says is good is my standard
of good. I don’t make up my own.

It's not an overstatement. I believe scripture is written so we can understand it. We don't need some guru to interpret it for us. The average man can pick up a Bible and understand the basic concepts in it.

Like the writer of Hebrews (I think it's Paul) says in chapter 6: "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." (v1,2) Notice he says in verse 2 that eternal judgment is foundational to our faith? It would be pretty serious if we got that wrong...

If I read a churches statement of faith, and it says "We don't ultimately know if people end up in hell forever or if it's like a protestant purgatory" I would definitely avoid a church like that.

//The character of God isn’t at stake for me because whatever He says is good is my standard of good. I don’t make up my own.//

Isn’t that just a round about way of saying that God might not be "good?”

No. It is a direct way of saying neither your definition of good nor mine should be the Rosetta Stone for interpreting Scripture. I feel Ike this is a topsy turvey conversation from the Book of Job at this point........”would a good God really do this to a wicked man?”

We’ve had this same conversation in another thread before about new birth. My biggest concern Todd is that man coming up with a definition of what a good God would do or not do is a disastrous method for interpreting Scripture. It is an infectious disease and I don’t want it to infect God’s people. I don’t think it is going too far to suggest that questioning God’s character or imputing bad motives to God based on the clear statements He makes is the oldest scheme and mistake in the Book. Innocent Eve made that mistake and so can any one of us.

Yes!

You are essentially saying that we have no ability to assess what is good and I think that is hogwash. We are made in God’s image. God certainly seems to charge us with knowing what is good. Jesus preached it all day long.

But you are saying that God can do the most horrible thing imaginable but it is still good because He is God and we’re just a bunch of hapless dopes that don’t know what is good and what is bad.

I want to know why you are so willing to lay the most most awful things to God’s account. Maybe your understanding is just plain wrong! But you are so embedded in one way of thinking that you are willing to do just that instead of even considering other possibilities.

I have never insisted that my view is correct.

But at least I can say with full conviction that I hope the traditional view is not.

Bro, Todd,
We know and have read that God’ Ways are not our ways.
.... but He is always just,... He is always right [eous]

And no matter how hell is and the punishment thereof, He is always just/justice/judgement.
””””””””-

elizabeth

Edited:
But He wants us to know about hell and eternal punishment, ...He desires that we see and know.

Now is the time,... TODAY, is the day of salvation,... and when tomorrow comes, ... it will be,’TODAY, is the day of salvation.

Todd, how about God telling the Israelites to kill the Canaanites? Men, women and children? Would you say that's "barbaric"? A good God just couldn't do such a thing.

Todd. Maybe I misinterpreted what you said. I thought you said that the God of the traditional view of Hell would be monstrous. Did I read that wrong ?

What I said was:

"I do get impatient with those who say they love God with all their hearts but are so willing to lay the most horrible and monstrous things at His doorstep without a second thought.”

Todd: got this quote from early in the thread

It amazes me how few people stop to really consider what their views say (slander) about God.

Let’s think about this succinctly: God knew man would sin before he was created; he knew in advance that everyone would sin but He created them anyway; he knew that a huge majority would never have a realistic chance of responding to the gospel, and that an exceedingly small percentage of those who do hear would respond favorably, yet He created a special place of never ending torture for the vast majority of his creation that He knew in advance would have to go there because of the system HE created.

That, my friends, is insanity, and, if true, means God is decidedly not good

Correct.

Why would God create a system where he would have to torture the vast majority of persons created in His image for all eternity?

I know you will probably say "for His glory” or some other such nonsense.

My answer is simply that He didn’t do that.

Todd,

I put the quote in there because you said I was not willing to even consider a different approach than the traditional view. Actually, based on your quote, it seems that you are unwilling to even consider the traditional view of Hell. You rule it out completely based solely on your personal assessment of God’s character. I land on the traditional view not on the basis of my subjective views but rather on plain wording of many Scriptures. I actually personally prefer universalism. I don’t see it in Scripture so I humbly submit my preference to what my mind clearly sees
and not because of personal predilictions or subjective constraints. Not that personal preferences are always wrong but rather when there are conflicts between my wisdom and God’s foolishness, I prefer to be thought "dopey” and submit to what He clearly says. That’s how I got saved.

My view is not just a preference. I’ve looked into this for a good number of years from all angles and, like many others, have come to strongly question the traditional view of hell. My view is based on a review of scriptures not just philosophical preference.

I knew nothing (or extremely little) about any alternative view until I was well into my 40s and prior to then simply dismissed them out of hand as liberal twisting. And I ain’t no liberal.

You are correct that I cannot state with certainty that the traditional view is not true. But I am convinced that it is not, just as I am convinced that Calvinism is not correct but that is of course a whole other ballgame.

In other words, I think a person can be convinced something is not true, yet still accept the possibility that it might be.

The crazy thing is that persons who hold the traditional view are persistently stubborn about it, i.e. they hold no possibility whatsoever that they might be wrong. Like I said early on, there are 3 views that have ample Biblical support. It is far too cumbersome and time consuming in a forum like this to lay out all the scriptures and pros and cons of each view, but the resources are certainly out there for those willing to look.

Todd. I appreciate what you say and would recommend that everyone explore the Scriptures and think deeply and carefully about what they believe. Blindly accepting what others think is unwise. You went beyond that approach though and said that anyone who holds the traditional view is insane, slanderous and blasphemous of God’s character. If you merely stressed or just strongly suggested people examine Scripture to assure themselves of the truth as taught by the Spirit and not just blindly follow the blind leader, you and I would be in complete agreement but you tend and have gone way
beyond that Berean attitude. You call those who disagree
with your assessments of Hell dopey and their views hogwash. That isn’t "Berean”
We can definitely debate with gentleness and patience conflicting views of Scripture but calling someone names and telling them their views are insane is neither helpful nor persuasive. I am sorry to say that to a brother but an open loving rebuke is honey.

I said a certain view when boiled down to its essentials is insanity- just like doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is insanity. Yet there are I people I know who do just that- and they themselves are not insane.

And I used the word "dopes” in a specific, collective, context. I didn’t call anyone a dope or at least I did not intend to.

QUOTE by TMK:

"With all due respect Sandra, you aren’t looking very hard."

I tried. I have too many kinfolks who have apostatized and I grieve for them and there ain't a thing I can do to change it.

Scripture talks about there being weeping and gnashing of teeth. I have never heard of a dead body doing the like after it is dead and burned up.

Sandra

But it may wail and gnash until it is burned up. It might take a million years.

But it may wail and gnash until it is burned up. It might take a million years.

So then God is decidedly not good for only 1 million years, but not for eternity?

A million years of torture? What kind of a sadistic monster would do such a thing? Those poor, poor humans. All they did was lie, steal, rape, murder, molest children and all kinds of other little mistakes all the while they rejected Jesus and treated him like his sacrifice meant nothing.

And did not love God with all their heart, mind, strength and might all day every day. We will do that one day though. PTL

We tend to find the sins of commission against humans far worse than the great sin of omission. Infinite punishment for the infinite evil of offending an infinite, loving and holy God.

Against Him only have I sinned and His judgment is right.

Jesus had already been punished for the sins of ALL mankind and taken away the sins of ALL mankind. The penalty had already been paid in full.

Isa. 53:4-6 ”“
Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
ALL OF US like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused THE INIQUITY OF US ALL
To fall on Him.

John 1:29 ”“
The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of THE WORLD!

1 John 2:2 ”“
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the WHOLE WORLD.

1 John 4:14 ”“
We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.

Jesus is the saviour of the world!

He is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb. 13:8).

He saves for the sake of His name.

Ps. 106:8 ”“
Nevertheless He saved them for the sake of His name,
That He might make His power known.

Isa. 48:11 ”“
For My own sake, My very own sake, I will act;
for how can I let Myself be defamed?
I will not yield My glory to another.

Ps. 109:21 --
But You, O GOD, the Lord, deal kindly with me for the sake of Your name; deliver me by the goodness of Your loving devotion.

Ezek. 20:9 ”“
But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the eyes of the nations among whom they were living, in whose sight I had revealed Myself to Israel by bringing them out of Egypt.

All mankind will be saved because Jesus IS the Saviour of the world! He cannot deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:13).

Luke 23:34 ”“
Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”

"UNIVERSALISM”

A COMMENT

I love Bible Study. It is the joy of my heart.

Ps. 119:103 ”“
How sweet are Your words to my taste!
Yes, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

Ps. 34:8 ”“
O taste and see that the LORD is good;
How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!

But when I try to study the doctrines of men, I just have a total mental block and cannot make any headway.

Does "universalism” just mean the salvation of all mankind?

If so, I find it so incomprehensible that Christians are so utterly petrified of "universalism” when NO ONE will be going to hell just because they do not believe in eternal torment and NO ONE will be saved from going to hell just because they believe in eternal torment.

And, this which should be feared is NOT feared and is hardly preached:

2 Cor. 13:5 (KJV) ”“
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

John 15:4-6 ”“
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, AND CAST THEM INTO THE FIRE AND THEY ARE BURNED.

Can we be born again,... born of the water and of The Spirit,... enter His kingdom,and yet,...??

Can we enter into His kingdom, (life in His kingdom) and yet ‘OFFEND’ (Him) and be gathered out of His kingdom, and cast into the furnace of fire , for offending and for inquity ?

Mt.13:41-43,
"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather ‘OUT OF HIS KINGDOM’ all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun ‘IN THE KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER’ ,Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

That is very ‘thought provoking.
I know,no way to explain these Scriptures away.

I would tend to believe we would have to stay in a continued state of true repentance. ...that The Lord, through His great mercy, wants to continually save us from our sins.

Could that possibly mean that ?....

.. how much love for Him would be required of us to be such a person, ..a child of God,.. w/ that type of relationship w/Him?

Does it go back to what The Scriptures say about how we are to love God.?
..and we must love His Word, because, The Word is God,.. He who speaketh to us, through The Spirit.

Mt.22:37,
"¶ Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.”

* Jesus loved like this.

..... "nay,.. but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish .”

My thoughts are rambling on,...
””””””””””””
elizabeth

There are pretenders in the kingdom but only God knows who they are, as in the parable of the dragnet.

Rom. 11:20-23 ”“
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. DO NOT BE CONCEITED, BUT FEAR; FOR IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU, EITHER. BEHOLD THEN THE KINDNESS AND SEVERITY OF GOD; to those who fell, severity, but to you, GOD'S KINDNESS, IF YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS; OTHERWISE YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

John 1:17 ”“
For the Law was given through Moses; GRACE and truth were realized THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.

Eph. 2:6-9 ”“
and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show THE SURPASSING RICHES OF HIS GRACE IN KINDNESS TOWARD US IN CHRIST JESUS. For by GRACE you have been saved THROUGH FAITH; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD; NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, SO THAT NO ONE MAY BOAST.

Titus 3:4-7 ”“
But WHEN THE KINDNESS OF GOD OUR SAVIOR AND HIS LOVE FOR MANKIND APPEARED, HE SAVED US, NOT BECAUSE OF WORKS DONE BY US IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, BUT according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Hi all: it's been a long time.

In the heart of a true believer, not a fake or deceived person there lay dangerous ideas.

What we think God should be like and with it, what we think God should do. (If God think and acts like me)

What we believe God to be like and what we think God did.
(If God is what I believe and acts like I think he does)

What God is truly like and what God truly did.
(What God truly is without my ideas of him and what he did without the biases I have about things)

We all get to wade through this with bible in hand and prayers being made and discussions being done.

With all the above there are thousands of different nuances about God and what he does to cloud the reading of any scripture for eternity.

We see through a glass darkly. When that which is perfect is come we shall see clearly and know as we are known.

Until then, a good student of scripture must confess his biases, repent of keeping them in the face of a clear reading of scripture.

A distorted view of God always results in distorted understandings of his actions. Heaven, hell, Calvinism, Arminianism, Cessationism, Continuationism, eternal security, eternal threat, all of these doctrines contain scriptures and human obligations to believe them in the face of a thousand different caveats from a thousand different people.

It takes a revelation from God to know the truth about God and his word. Without that revelation every doctrine is just another mode of attack or another means to create strife. What difference between this doctrine and calvy/armin debates? None.

My hope is you all will seek God and call upon him to reveal his word to you regardless if the moderator here or elsewhere have made up their mind that all discussions on the topic are now relegated to the 'strife' bin.

There is a right and wrong belief on this subject, you get right belief from God himself and with that the risk of losing 'what you thought God was like and how he should act'.

This is an interesting discussion. I know that it has been discussed over the years here. However, I would add something that might provide just another way to look at it.

Time.

When did "time" begin?

Time is certainly a concept that is confined to our created universe and its system of measurements. Our concept of "day" is based upon a single rotation of the Earth -- one full night and day in a 24 hour cycle. Our concept of "year" is based upon the Earth revolving through space around the Sun in roughly 365 days.

A "day" or "year" on other planets is different. A day on Mars is 25 hours. Yet, a day on Venus is 5,832 hours! A day on Jupiter (the largest planet in our solar system) is just 10 hours. The concept of a "day" on the sun is even more perplexing -- because it has nothing else to measure how it "rises" or "sets."

Even brilliant physicists and other scientists perceive "time" as "relative." They come to this conclusion from the confines of this side of that "glass darkly" or "mirror dimly" (I Corinthians 13:12). Concepts of time are very different perceptions in eternity.

After all, this created heavens and the earth will pass away. What will a "day" be like after that? What was a day before the "Sun" and "Earth" were created?

Why am I even bringing this up?

My point is that our concept of time is earthly. We're approaching it from a very earthly perspective. God is ETERNAL. We can count our days on Earth. God knows our days in eternity. However, God knew us before we were born.

Consider this: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4 KJV). What about "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isaiah 46:10 KJV).

We know that the apostle John was able to "see" things that are recorded in the Book of Revelation. However, I think that we often tend to think that he was having a dream-like vision of the future. However, this wasn't mere dream. He was instructed to write things that he had SEEN (Revelation 1:19-20). He was caught up into the "spirit" in Revelation 4:1-2. In other words, he was transformed from this earthly world into that which is eternal.

What does this mean when it comes to the concepts of Hell and eternal punishment? I am not entirely certain. However, I do think that our pondering can sometimes miss this crucial element. Eternity cannot be measured by time. It certainly cannot be measured by an earthly view of days, months or years.

Think of big numbers. A "googol" is a name for a number that was invented in 1920 by a 9-year-old boy named Milton Sirotta. It represents a one followed by a hundred zeroes. In other words, it is a HUGE number. It is technically a shorter way to describe the number 10 duotrigintillion.

Yet, a "googol" of years is nothing in eternity. A googol number of googols is nothing either.

Why?

Eternity is not a measurement. It is more of a state. It is literally infinity. Timelessness. This is difficult for us to comprehend because there is nothing to compare it with.

Time is still important. It is certainly important for us in the scope of this world, Biblical prophecy (e.g., the weeks of Daniel, etc.). However, time as we know it will cease to exist when the heavens and the earth are destroyed.

When we try to rationalize "eternal" punishment, I think that our concept of what "eternal" means is skewed by our measurement of time on Earth. Time for us is not a state. It is a concept of measurement.

Personally, I don't like to conceptualize that measurement. The issue is that of punishment. The Bible is clear that sinful man is punished.

Chris-

Excellent point”” I have sometimes heard that word "eternal” is more of a God-quality than a time measurement, which is why we have eternal life "now.”

The idea of no time cannot be comprehended by humans, nor can words express it, which is why the Bible can not explain it. It’s not a knock on scripture but rather is a function of our limited minds, like Marvin said.

Good to see you again Marvin!

Please just be consistent with your arguments that "eternal destruction”
may not actually mean forever. That everlasting burning may not mean forever. If that is a possible truth, then eternal life might not really be forever and everlasting love may not be unending.

The fact that God is outside time means that when time goes away, then what is at that point will always be. There will be no ending or starting of anything. Everything at that point including real spiritual life and real punishment just is.

Your argument is that "eternal fire” and "eternal punishment” suggest everlasting torment. In response, it should be pointed out that "eternal fire” does not directly speak to the consciousness of the being(s) involved. Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be examples (Jude 7) of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Those cities are not still burning, but their judgment was from God and was seemingly absolute. Further, Jesus could have contrasted "eternal life” with "eternal torment” or "eternal punishing.” The word punishment gives us the freedom to interpret the saying about Hell either as everlasting conscious torment (eternal punishing) or as irreversible destruction (eternal punishment). There is a subtle but important difference. The text allows for both interpretations because it only teaches the finality of the judgment, not its exact nature.

I agree that the passage seems to indicate a symmetry between eternal life and eternal punishment, but this symmetry of "eternal” may be overpowered either by the contrast between "life” and "punishment” or neutered by a more careful understanding of the Greek word for "eternal.” (as noted by Chris)

In Mark 9, in addition to images of everlasting fire, we read of worms that do not die. My guess is that you would state that the undying nature of the worms coincides with the undying nature of those being tormented by them. The problem with this is that Jesus, in Mark 9, is obviously quoting Isaiah 66:24. But Isaiah’s text does not even describe everlasting torment. In that passage the dead bodies (real, actual dead bodies) of God’s enemies are eaten by maggots and incinerated. The flames and the worms in this passage are destroying the dead bodies, not tormenting conscious people. When the Isaiah reference is honestly examined, the everlasting torment interpretation of Jesus’ words in Matthew seems questionable at best.

Hi Todd. Using the word "eternal” in the same sentence for a critical idea doesn’t "suggest symmetry.” It demands sameness.

Not at all.

In I Cor. 15:53 Paul says "this mortal must **put on** immortality." Doesn't this imply that it is something he did not already have? A plain reading would indicate this.

Paul also says in I Tim. 6:16 that God *alone* is immortal.

That is where the term "Conditional Immortality" comes from- the idea being that God must grant immortality to those who repent and believe. In other words, this granting of immortality to certain persons is conditional.

So, the effects or consequences of one's punishment is eternal if they are ultimately consumed like "chaff,” "stubble,” "wax,” "smoke,” etc. (Matthew 3:12; Malachi 4:1; Psalm 68:2; 37:20.). It can't be changed, altered, or redirected. Life eternal also can't be changed, altered, or redirected.

ADD: I forgot about John 3:16.

Thanks Todd, I think I have arrived at the end of this never ending circle :). Blessings.

Was anyones mind, (participating or just observing/reading this thread), changed as to what they believed prior to this thread?

Been tryin to keep up with this sort of thing and would be grateful for any help offered 🙏🏻

I am not sure if it is simply a matter of changing minds.

For a Christian, it’s a moot point because hell in any form is not in the picture.

For a non- Christian, they should be coming to Christ for HIS sake, not their own. Peter preached:

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:36-38

I don’t believe it is possible to be truly converted if the motive is to save one’s own skin. The motive must be because of true faith in a Person who deserves our allegiance regardless of what we do or don’t get out of it.

/ I am not sure if it is simply a matter of changing minds. /

Yeah except wasn’t that exactly what you were doing when you initially responded to sister Enid’s OP?.... you essentially derailed (what was her obvious intent in starting) the thread taking in a totally different direction by taking a swipe at her presented position and the effect it had on her in the practice of seeking to share the gospel with the lost- she was just sharing a realization/revelation and commenting on the sobering effect it had on her personally.

Now is it permissible? Yes absolutely
Is it profitable?.... that’s what I’m seeking to find out ?

Honestly, and I mean no disrespect, this seems like a personal issue that you’re wrestling with God on.... everyone agrees this is a seriously big deal and yet it’s clear that when Jesus came and fulfilled EVERYTHING God the Father intended for Him to do, which in large part was correcting the record of who God is and what His plans, feelings, intent, requirements, etc... are for us, it’s interesting to note that He did not only not "change” the OT view of hell but expanded on it 😳 so that tells me (call me simpleminded) that it’s most likely worse than we can imagine,... just as what God has planned for those whom obey Him far exceeds our wildest expectations 😇

(In my experience) when someone responds from a short tempered/testy defensive postured position, it’s usually cause God has already engaged them on this very thing and they’re especially sensitive to it 🤷🏼”â™‚️

Wonder(ed) you not why salvation had to involve the wounding of another Man rather than a simple resolution to forgive and forget from God, seeing he is all powerful? Here lies another spiritual mystery (that may, as with many scriptures, appear to some to warrant differing takes). But saints (and not liberals) will indeed do wrong to think that we are to always advocate for God even in cases where its clear that he would rather by himself intervene. We are to advocate only so long as clarity and understanding are given but when obscurity arises, we have a reason to ascend his throne, and humbly summon him to come and vindicate his own Word. Elijah did this when he felt people held between two views (1 Kings 18:21-39). So did the 139 Psalmist  understood that a man needed God's intervention to have his steps better directed in the way everlasting (23 and 24) . As brother Marvin said, without God granting the only one meaning of each of his Scriptures, every doctrine can indeed become another mode of attack or means to create strife. 

Yes while the approach of only quoting Scriptures certainly have its place, it has in this particular conversation proven to be ineffective alone - especially since many brethren not only cherry pick as they please but that at times lean decidedly on their own interpretations - leaving the whole to appear indeed like the said 'endless circle'. One may be correct in their position but when understanding is not given to the hearer, no edifying gets be done. Humbly going before God (in as many such cases, especially when both parties are open minded) on the other hand would ensure, if the LORD will grant, that brethren come to see eye to eye - in interpretation, understanding or revelation (where aught was simply not revealed).

I say grant because this does not appear to be always the case. John Wesley and George Whitefield held different views on the subject of Calvinism vs Arminianism and yet held each other's ministry in great honor at the time death separated them - which ministries the LORD appeared to be pleased to work mightily in. Sure they tried to convince each other but without evident success. A case where I would say the LORD was not pleased grant - whether so they could be thorns of humility to each other I cannot tell.

I read this was the case with circumstances surrounding the foundation of the Moravian Revival - that brethren had to overlook denominational differences and stick to what they agreed on. Of cause some differences appears so material that they ideally aught to be taken to throne rather than to be shelved or be given up on. Yes handing it to the LORD and let him (in as any such cases) be the one who chooses to do nothing about the matter. Alas that he may be true, and every man a liar!