Andy and the Minister

Andy and the Minister One Sunday morning, the minister noticed little Andy standing in thefoyer of the church staring up at a large plaque. It was covered with names with small American flags mounted on either side of it. The seven year old had been staring at the plaque for some time, sothe minister walked up, stood beside the little boy, and said quietly, "Good morning, Andy." "Good morning sir," he replied, still focused on the plaque."Sir, what is this?" he asked the minister. The minister said, "Well, son, it's a memorial to all the young menand women who died in the service." Soberly, they just stood together, staring at the large plaque. Finally, little Andy's voice, barely audible and trembling with fear, asked, "Which service, the 9:30 or the 11:00?" I thought you all would enjoy this.Bub

LOL.... now thats pretty funny.Krispy

Bubba,I'm not amused. Sorry guys. Been the ridiculed child too often in my life. And been mortally frightened. Believe me, it's not entertaining to be 'Andy'.

Dorcas... I say this with as much compassion as I can muster up... Get a sense of humor!This joke wasnt making fun of anybody... I dont know how you could draw the conclusion that it was.Krispy

Krispy,I love laughing when it's appropriate. I read the leading post and spent half an hour writing much more of what I thought about it - about 4 paragraphs to be precise. I didn't feel happy with my attempt, so I decided to cut to the quick, blanked it all out, and you saw what I decided to say. You call it 'a joke' and quite simply I would not. That's really the heart of the matter. And, I didn't think it was 'funny' for the reasons I gave. For me, the scenario rings too many bells from my past and it's possible it does for others who read these forums, for all sorts of reasons. As an adult now, I have no intention of glossing over the serious side of the way the 'joke' was put together, nor ignoring the reasons I'm probably not the only person feeling uncomfortable. But hey, I'm comfortable with the way I'm reacting. Sure others will do their own thing, too.

I'm interested in seeing if any others reacted the way you did... If anyone did, please feel free to post... I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around why this joke is offensive. Someone enlighten me, please.If anyone has a child they appreciate the humor behind this joke... this is something one of my kids would say... out of the mouths of babes, ya know.I'm totally befuddled. We cant even tell clean jokes on here without this kind of thing happening... or am I completely missing something?Laugh everybody! C'mon... it's not hard to do!Krispy

One Sunday last fall my two older sons and I were watching a football game... (they are ages 9 and 10). My 9 yr old is a football guru... understands the game better than most adults...Anyway, it was a close game, and the score was back and forth all afternoon... toward the end of the 4th quarter he looks at me as serious as could be ... and says..."I think the team that scores the most points is gonna win this one!"LOL... I about fell out of my chair laughing. We havent let him live that one down yet. Probably never will!!Krispy

I enjoyed this little anecdote. 8-)

Roadsign... Dorcas and I worked this out privately, and we both are comfortable with everything here. So since Dorcas is cool with me, and I am cool with her... it seems to me that it should be cool with everyone else..... and dropped.Thanx,Krispy

that Krispy is a classic...can yu say, hall of fame?I just want to clarify for folks from countries other than America... that when I say we were watching football, I do not mean soccer! I am referring to good ol' American smash-mouth football.Krispy

roadsign,It would be true that by the time Krispy wrote your second quotation from him, he and I were in private correspondence. In fact, when he posted as he did the first time, it was comforting for the post not to have been passed over without comment by the next person, which I knew would have been easier for anyone to do. From the poem, Please hear what I'm not saying,I tell you everything that is really nothing, And nothing of what is really everything, it is difficult to explain what it's like to have been invalidated as a person so comprehensively that one cannot even put into thoughts what one knows. There is just a deep silence which needs to be broken, if ever there is to be healing.Not going to say much about myself here, except a big thanks to SI for having cultivated a spiritual climate in which I could break a personal sound barrier, knowing I'd be accepted.

Krispy, I feel that I took your words here seriously by taking some time to pray and meditate, and then respond to you. I'd sure appreciate it if you would think about what I wrote and respond to my words. Is that Okay? Was I any help in adressing your perplections?I refer you to philologos's post just previous to this one... as usual, he eloquently spoke the words that were in me, but not able to come out for some reason.Bravo, philologos... well done.Krispy

There are many possible ways to respond to the preceding posts, which I have considered. It seems most glorifying to the Lord, though, if I continue to bring forth that which is in my heart, as we all have been, trusting it plays a part in the whole, that is, our lives for the Lord both here and in 3D. If your patience may be required, then humbly, thank you.

Hi guys,Yesterday, I spent quite a long time trying to respond in the light of roadsign's response to what had passed so far. It seems I did not succeed as well as I'd hoped. In what follows, perhaps I will seem to be repeating thoughts. Overall, I believe this is justified by the complexities of the topic.As I tried to explain, in my last post, Krispy's reaction was a blessing. To me, this thread has turned into a piece of 'Body ministry' far more than some ever do, not just because I've been a beneficiary, but because it has become an opportunity for all of us to exercise family love in a truly Christian way - to all be able to be ourselves in the Lord, accepted, 'heard' and affirmed. 'But Dorcus was not the focal issue in my response. She just brought it out.' I thought I recognised this and was glad the focus was no longer on me. In fact, although roadsign quoted Krispy, in the context, her comments were appropriate for anyone who had felt as Krispy did, were they not? 'Your reaction is your responsibility not bubbaguy's nor Krispy's.' Yes. I thought that was clear. I decided not to contact Bubba privately, because I felt more good for the Church could come out of doing the way I felt most comfortable, which I took to be a form of direction from the Lord. I know it may have looked like an outburst but, you can read it fast or slow, say it fast or slow, or put any complexion on it to try to mitigate it. I said what was on my heart. Is anyone saying that was wrong? Or is it, what I thought, maybe slightly uncomfortable to deal with? Is that 'wrong'? I don't think so, even though I'm a Christian. Within the context of my life, my response was appropriate, measured and balanced. I am any hurt child you care to name, if you can name any. Again, don't read that as a jibe, like it's the punchline of a joke. It's a fair statement which points towards my concerns for others.Bubba also had the option to pm me if he felt it was appropriate, which, so far, he has not. I hope you don't mind my mentioning this Bubba. I am completely comfortable that you didn't pm me.I made a choice to post my original response, believing it was the right thing to do. I could do so, because of the healings which Christ has wrought in my heart and mind and body over several years of yeilding up my festering pains to Him. He was not only willing and able, (as one always supposes from the gospels,)but I have proved He really could do this for me in my experience, so each time, I am changed - I am altered, like the man at the gate Beautiful, in fact. I think one of the difficulties faced by people who bear historical pain, is that it changes you (me, them) and there is a process of acceptance which must go on, that one cannot ever be changed back to what and who one could have been. But, in the Lord, one can go forward, being healed, being changed and becoming what and who He wants one to be now. It is also a process of discovery and resignation combined. Yet, it is truly glorious to be in a relationship with Him which becomes the foundation of one's testimony, eventually.

philologos,However, I think I want to point out that it would be impossible to describe a single blessing without someone somewhere being 'hurt' because it brings back memories.This somewhat understates the life-crippling level of difficulty I have experienced. In fact, I'm still dealing with it, having only begun to recognise it about 10 years ago."it hurts so much when I see it working".This is a handy way of explaining the tears at the time, but, the Lord is doing far more than meanly reminding a person of their failures or vanished dreams. These sort of tears cannot be avoided by the person who cries them, especially if they seek to be met by the Lord. The word 'hurt' covers many bases which cannot be easily separated by the person. The representative success of your marriage would have brought hope and healing, actually.There was nothing offensive in the joke;This may be a great little 'joke' to tell in western churches, where many of the parents have little experience of war, or losing many loved ones, or, of caring for orphans. I wonder if you would really tell it to a congregation drawn from - please pick your own military conflict or famine victims or refugee camp?Are they to be held accountable because of your private history? Of course not.In one sense, I agree, but only because you are asking everyone who has inner pain, to hide it rather than bringing it to the Lord to be healed. Even if the latter was the case, I would be aware of the potential for this joke to trigger inner pain. Why should not the joke-teller choose not to tell the joke? Surely by telling the joke, that gives me as valid a choice to say I didn't find it funny? Audience reaction cannot be predicted accurately, this episode illustrates. It's a risk a joke-teller takes. I'm trying to put both sides fairly here. Is there a reason he should not be as 'fair game' as the listener to be hurt?

Secondly, it will have the effect that the bubbaguys and Krispys of our fellowship will retreat into quiteness rather than risk stepping on the toes of someone's history. (well, theoretically at least. :-?) That would produce a 'spiritual climate' in which no one would dare say anything which is not what any of us want.This is not what I was seeking. I was staking my claim to give an honest reaction in public, where the joke had been published. In so doing, I in no way rob anyone else of their honest response. In fact, in this case, that has been the beauty of this whole thread. Of course, I may not be the only person who read it, who was not amused. Just as there are many like you, Bubba and Krispy, who find it funny.How then are we to react to 'little jokes' when our heart is breaking? Gently and privately. This is a choice one makes which may or may not be within reach. People, if I may say it like this, who can contain their pain until they are alone, may be bearing less pain than people who eventually avoid social situations like churches, because there is no way they can interact meaningfully, under the burden of pain they carry. I still am not clear why the Church should be absolved of consciousness of this truth.we would never be able to discuss things like death, abortion, divorce, child-abuse, adultery...It is dawning on me (not just with respect to this reply) that several things need to be 'able' to happen for people who have cause to 'hurt'. These circle round aspects of how old the pain and whether they are aware of it - a frozen part of them which will thaw under the love of God - and, what I shall call timing, with regard to there being a general attitude of permission to let the pain show up when in company. If the church is a person's main family, the church should fulfil the role of family. Those with natural family may have a safe place to be outside of 'church' time, but even they should have the same freedom to express how they are, for the benefit of the whole Body. I'm not sure what the balance is, but, three kinds of relationship play into whether this can take place naturually and spiritually, simultaneously. Within the Body, there are natural relationships, spiritual relationships and friendships which cut past the other two. All three of these dimensions need to be functioning for any one individual's pain to be appropriately acknowledged. Everything God seeks to do for a person has a perfect season. I seek a culture of acknowledgement which is not phased, thrown, dismissive, minimising, over-emphasising or exalting of the condition in which we find our souls as God reveals them to us, but rather, which gets on with administering the healings which are necessary (or is it essential? ;-) ) to enable ordinary believers to undertake great things for the Lord, even to the death. Church is weakened by the many who come, who can never be emotionally robust enough for God's calling on their life, because of the amount of inner pain they carry.

In sharing without offering labels for pain and pains, I should acknowledge there is never a right or convenient time for pain to surface. But God is always available to relieve it in a measure. He leaves some pains because their time has not yet come. Others, He is longing to take, if we would only think of asking Him. It's a personal transaction with Him, privately, in the heart, mind, soul and spirit. There may be occasions in church life when it is more appropriate than others, but my general plea is for there to be a recognition that some pain is just to large and all-pervasive to be released in a single or several 'spiritual' events. No-one can be comfortable bearing pain, nor watching another bear it but somehow, there should not be an atmosphere which usually implies 'now is not the time, Sunshine. You can hold it together better than that if your try hard enough.' There is a truth in this, but, it is a false economy in God. Amorphous indefinable inner turmoil cannot be labeled. It takes willingness, time and many other concessions, to begin to identify entities which can be given a context of being and for understanding. The person doing the work in all this, the individual believer, is not necessarily completely incapacitated by the process. Certainly, they don't stop being 'in the Spirit' because of it, nor, unable to minister in the Spirit. Without the Spirit, none of their strength to address their pains would be possible. They are juggling. From time to time, they put it all down and have a breather but this should never be construed as THE END and that when they pick up the task again, this is a sign of failure or that God didn't do anything for them the last time and their latest testimony is false.

This is the last of what has come to me to say. When I was 25, and as close to clinically insane as I have ever been (still holding down a job somehow) I contacted the only person in the world who I suspected really cared about me. How did I define this 'care'? Well, she had told me I'd upset her so much she couldn't speak to me. And did not, for at least 18 months. Also, she had shouted at me several times about my attitude to making decisions. Somehow, I knew that this person would have some answers for me. On our way to visit an elder in another city, who she was sure could help, she asked me whether I had never understood that it is a sin to hold on to my pain? Huh? Wha...? I had pain? This was a sin? Because I should have given it to Jesus long ago and not be in this state now! I should?The whole new world which she was opening to me was waaaaayyyyy beyond my comprehension. But, not so much that I was convicted by sinfulness for having pain, I was convicted by my preference to hold on to it. In fact, I was a very long way from being able to define any of my pain well enough to give it to the Lord, but, the elder pushed me off in the right direction, although it has taken all the years since then, for the final victory to have been given within the last month. No kidding! ;-) Another triumph for the patience of the Lord. And yours, probably. :-P

It is truly amazing how this community of believers can take a silly joke that made me chuckle... and turn it into this. Simply amazing... It must be a slow news week.Krispy

I'm at a loss for words. (When has that ever happened before?? :)Dorcas, I pray that you find healing and hope you know that I had no idea the joke would cause you or anyone else pain.Bubbaguy

Bubba, Thank you. I am much more whole than I used to be. That is all to the glory of the Lord.After I switched off the computer last night, I realised someone here had said I was hurt. To the best of my knowledge, I said I was 'not amused' because had been the hurt child. Had I not begun to heal, I could not have spoken up. Later, I testified in a general way to many healings, to convey how long it takes to recover once one realises one's inner condition is not due to lack of belief, or, lack of the Holy Spirit. Being no way alone statistically, I'd hope this thread may be a blessing to many who cannot make easy sense of how and why they ache.Thanks for giving me the opportunity to say that.

Surely God must be pleased... May your boldness give courage to many others!Now you're embarrassing me, but I hope so.– even at the risk of being misunderstood yourself.Optimist that I am, this was unexpected, but, is useful learning (should I choose to make it work for me - which I intend), which 'healing' prepared me to withstand - ('survive', I may have said in the past). I would never have called my past experience 'suffering' or, 'the cross in my life', but, the acceptance of being 'misunderstood' when I am 'whole' is ... perhaps something closer to a meaningful laying down of 'my' life. Somehow, the glory of the cross is in the making-it-work. It's not something I've been able to embrace, I admit, but it presents itself in every part of 'my' life, immediately, and I'm turning to face its implications with more understanding. Thank you for your insightful and affirming words.Bubba,I'm at a loss for words. (When has that ever happened before?? :)I don't want to promise, ;-) but I'm getting towards that too, now. But let me say, your silence has been eloquent indeed and has contributed to the whole.

I have no doubt that it is God working providentially in our lives when He brings things into our lives which trigger these strong reactions. He is lovingly reminding us that there are unresolved issues in our lives. I am also sure that His intention is to bring us to Himself with our pains. He remains 'acquainted with grief'.[EDIT added: In retrospect, I feel I didn't really appreciate Ron's post as I should have. I apologise for not acknowledging the simplicity of its tenderness and truth immediately, but rode roughshod off into what I said, somewhat without due preparatory care and attention. end EDIT]I think it is this point - that we bring our pains to Him for healing - and this is a separate work from being forgiven for our sins, which is poorly preached, even if it is commonly understood by those who preach. Also, when one's own actions have been implicated in being sinned against or suffering a significant (however small) loss, it takes time to work through separating the factors which may need to be healed, rather than repented of. Also, I would testify that at times, repentance is what comes last, from the position of having been healed from weakness to strength. I have never found the Lord critical of this apparent reversal of doctrinal process, the point being that if one cannot honestly 'see' how one's own 'sin' contributed to one's pain, it cannot be repented of, meaningfully (to Him or 'me').I think it is also tricky, if one has not had a serious 'pain' to admit that something is hurting. For me, old pains had, by the grace of God, been numbed. The lack and loss of function of the numb part, had ramifications, but wonderfully not every pain has to be un-numbed to be healed, I found. This is no small miracle to experience. However, I would defend the right of anyone to bring their new 'pains' to church for healing, rather than feeling they must hide at home and work it all out, alone with God. (Although, that's an option.) And I do believe the acquaintance of Jesus with grief, can be seen by some people as justification for not yeilding pain to Him. I'm not sure that's ok, if it prevents a person from functioning. However, the expereince of grief and pain, met by the Lord's comfort, contributes to the Compassion we can show to our fellows - not just in church.our consciousness of othersThis grows, does it not, as we find our answers in the Lord's presence?