God and the accuser wager over Job's life

Someone I love dearly is struggling with his faith. He is asking a lot of questions that show he is doubting who God is.

One thing that has been bothering this person is how God basically used Job as a pawn. God made a wager with the accuser and basically destroyed Job's life. That seems rather unfair and unjust.

I don't have an answer. I have looked online and honestly I didn't find a satisfactory answer. Mostly I feel it is not addressed. The common idea that is stated is that while it seems that God is wagering with the accuser, there is more going on. But the question isn't really answered.

I myself trust God's goodness and mercy so for me this is not a struggle; it just shows me I don't understand God. But for someone who doesn't trust God, I can see why there would be an issue.

If anyone can provide some explanation or any resources that I can use or pass along I would greatly appreciate it. Video formats are better for this person.

Prayer is also welcome because ultimately it is the Holy Spirit that will convict him.

Thank you.
Natalie

There is a lot of strangeness in the "set-up” of Job. There’s no way to know what exactly was going on or even IF it was actually going on.

Bottom line, however, is that your friend should be a disciple of Jesus, not Job.

Job is the question”” Jesus is the answer.

If there appear to be inconsistencies because of our limited understanding, ALWAYS look to Jesus. Hebrews 1:3.

Maybe what we don't see are God's secret thoughts in the story. His love would say I'm going to bless Job more if he gets through this and obeys me.
It's just something I have heard from others how they went through a difficult time at one point in their life

A righteous man like Job who suffers injustice that God allowed and even planned for so that that righteous man could be tested whether he would remain faithful to God, conquer temptation, the world, his flesh and Satan so that he could see God. That sounds vaguely familiar.

All God's people suffer to differing degrees in the same manner, testing their faith, conquering the world, the flesh and Satan ultimately to one day receive the crown of life and a vision of their God.

That form of narrow path and hard road to God is not hard to understand. Difficult to do of course. Necessary? Only Jesus' words suffice to answer. "If there is any other way Father". Apparently not. All things are designed for our good. Can't argue with "all things" and "designed".

I view Job's story as an illustration of what life is like, explains the trials we have, how and why they happen. The end result of being blessed financially like Job may not always happen to people who are faithful.

If you study the book carefully, you will find questions common to people who experiences difficulties in life. Before our daughter was diagnosed with glioblastoma I was led to study Job....I got weary of it after several chapters because of those friends who kept pestering Job with the same questions, kept going long after they made their point - lots of circular reasoning - bored me stiff. BUT I got the point. Then Regina got sick and died later. I can look back at this point in time as the hand of God leading me to learn a few things about God and among them is that some things won't make sense and I do not have to know why He is allowing it - just trust Him anyways.

In reality, the rest of the Scripture proves this very point, as well. Consider the life of Joseph and later the Exodus. All these trials as recorded in Exodus can be summed up as stated in Exodus 20:20: "Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin." NASB

I suggest you tell your friend to study carefully the life of the patriarchs, go on through to the Israelites entering into Canaan and read Joshua. All the while imagine being there with them, participating in that journey. It may help to get a good Bible atlas like Holman Bible Atlas to help you get a sense of distance and place. These are real people you are studying - don't forget that. Also note the time between events - this is very important. All the while ask the LORD to reveal what it is He wants you to learn. The scriptures are super rich in insights - no other piece of literature can equal it. None.

God bless.

Sandra

Hi Ginny, While it is true that God more than restored Job's temporal situation which is comforting from an OT perspective, that does not always happen in this life in the Kingdom of God. However, what was lost on me in the Job story until this thread made me consider it is that Job got to "see" God. To me, that grace given to a bankrupt follower of God far surpasses any temporal gain God would also give Job. Job's vision of God was an unimaginable blessing to Job that arguably would not have occurred unless Job had faithfully continued to worship God no matter what Satan threw at him.

Natalie,
I do not know if this will help, as I know that one cannot come to God except He draw them through His Grace, but The Lord does draw ones though God who is working in a person, which after watching dozens of this man’s messages believe God is truly working in him.... a modern day Paul that God has gave great insight into The Life and knowledge of God.

I watched this today , and you came to mind.
It blessed me.
I pray it helps.
””””””””””””
"Understanding The God Who Has Spoken”
By Gbile Akanni

https://youtu.be/aaUMyuhiEPA
””””””””””””-
elizabeth

He has misunderstood what God was doing with Job. An important principle to understand why what happened happened is issue of hope. Not just mere natural aspiration and fleshly ambition but true biblical hope.

Let’s look at the example of the stewardship of God given talents. In Matthew 25, we have the parable of the talents. The lord was gone for an extended time and the servants were responsible to use and invest the talents on his behalf. The lord didn’t expect the servants to feed and house themselves. He provided for their needs and made them responsible for a portion of his wealth to invest it and be fruitful. When the master returned, the neither the talent nor the increase were the servants’. Yet their needs were taken care of every day. The one who was responsible for the single talent was provided for just as much as the one with five. But the kicker is that the profits from the talents were a trial for the real reward responsibility for multiple cities and all the honor provisions that brings with it. So did the servants keep the talents they had earned? No, most certainly not. They were given something much better.

The one who did not receive the greater blessing was the one who complained and called his master stingy and unfair. His master had taken care of him.

The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof. Really? What’s the implication? What does anyone actually own? Job understood this and when the Lord revealed Himself in Job 40-41 that Job’s mouth was stopped. Even righteous Job saw his inadequacy and sin.

11 "Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 ***If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children***, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Luke 11:11-13

Why can’t folks just admit that the "set-up” in Job is just terrible? It really is. It’s not wrong to say it. That’s why this friend in the OP is struggling.

Platitudes don’t help at all- I am sure he has heard all of them and all the justifications.

It is an extremely difficult passage to understand regardless how it turned out for Job.

The God who Devastates by Art Katz

Topic: Devastation
Scripture(s): Proverbs 1:7 \t
Description: Art Katz speaks prophetically using the holocaust and the sufferings of Job applying it to the Church and the need of repentance. If Divine reality is to come into the church in its present unreal condition, then we need to expect devastations in our midst of the deepest and challenging kind. The text is from the suffering of Job.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3328

First and foremost there is a great logical flaw in the question posted by OPs friend. One cannot deny a fact because it does not feel good to them. For example one cannot deny the spinning of the earth just because one cannot feel the spin. If we consider the existence of God as a fact, one cannot deny this fact because the nature of God is not feel good to them.

To understand Job better we need to understand what is valuable in the sight of God. Job 1:1 stays about Job's spiritual righteousness and after that only verses 2 to 4 talks about his Physical blessings like his possession.

Even God himself presents only the Spiritual condition to Satan, he does not even mention about how many goats, camels that Job has to Satan.

All this shows that God is only interested in spiritual condition of Job. This is the same from Genesis to revelation.

But OPs friend with his unconverted heart, values only Physical blessings of Job and that is why they cannot value what God does in Job's life to uplift his spiritual condition. It is impossible for him to value what God values as well. That is why he feels that what was done to Job was a terrible act.

Job had a self righteousness in him. He argued to his friends that he does not deserve to be in this condition because of his righteous God fearing acts! God had already seen this in Job even before it came out his mouth. God wanted to remove this self-righteousness in Job. That is why in the End Job says that he now has seen God and repents from his self-righteousness (Job 42:5 and 6).

Hebrews 2:10 says that Jesus himself was made perfect through sufferings. If God did not spare his own son from suffering then where are you, I and Job.

Again unless a person is truly born again, he cannot understand how God values our spiritual condition more than Physical. He will always call Jobs treatment as bad and unjust. But if we know God even little then we will acknowledge the value that God brought inside Job through all this suffering is nothing compared to the sufferings he went through. That is why Paul who knew the ways of God says,

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us (Romans 8:18).

We also must remember that God did not just strike Job himself in order to "improve” him, but he also allowed his children to be killed.

"If we obey what God says according to our sincere belief, God will break us from those traditions that misrepresent Him. There are many such beliefs to be got rid of, e.g., that God removes a child because the mother loves him too much ”” a devil’s lie! and a travesty of the true nature of God. If the devil can hinder us from taking the supreme climb and getting rid of wrong traditions about God, he will do so; but if we keep true to God, God will take us through an ordeal which will bring us out into a better knowledge of Himself.” ~ Oswald Chambers

I would like to present a moment of honesty. Hopefully everyone could also drop the "religiosity" and be honest as well.

In Job satan tells God the only reason Job serves Him is because of the protection and blessing God gives him.

satan then asks for the permission to destroy Job's health, finances, and murder his children. God allows this to happen. Let that sink in. God gives permission for satan to destroy Job's health, finances, and murder his children..
Yes, later restored ... but the point is that God permitted this. It appears that the only motivation was that God was proving to satan that Job would still be faithful. In fact there is one time God angrily respond to satan basically saying that satan had pushed Him into this "proving" contest.

NOW FOR THE HONESTY PART....

If you had a criminal in your town that said the only reason your children loved you was because you blessed and protected them. He then bet you that if he could infect your children with diseases, destroy everything they owned, and then murder their family they would disown you. You had every ability to either allow or stop this assault on your kids. However, to prove they would not disown you the assault on your children is approved by you. YOU ALLOW AND PERMIT the disease infection, financial ruin, and murder of your own child's family ... just to prove they would not disavow you.

If someone did this in your world everyone on this forum would be screaming of child abuse and to lock them up!

How would you feel toward a parent that willingly let a man enter their childs bedroom and inject them with diseases as they slept? How would you feel about a person that gave all their childs financial banking information to a person allowing them to steal their entire life savings costing them their home and all they had? How would you feel about a person that willingly allowed a person to enter their children's house and murder all the family at gunpoint. The parent had every ability to stop all this ... but allowed it just to prove a point to the man attacking the kids. How would you feel about that person .... Be honest.

You would absolutely brand them as a child abuser, wouldn't you.

THIS is why the man's friend in the op is in a quandary about Job. He sees God making choices that are diametrically opposed to every sense of goodness and justice that are known. If a person did what God did in Job everyone on this forum would brand them a child abuser, accessory to murder, and criminal of the worst sort.

Failure to see this and be honest about it is why the op's friend is in a quandary.

All the religious platitudes and efforts to somehow make the story palatable are shallow, hollow, and easily seen through by anyone not afraid to look at it with clear glasses. We should not continue to lie to ourselves about the reality of what happened ... much less make up false narratives to try and sooth our conscience about it. It happened exactly as the book states. I'm sure no one likes it, few want to be honest about it, and almost all try to somehow twist it around to make it fit their preconception biased theology.

It is apparent that most do not understand God nearly as well as they think they do.

Nowhere in the book of Job does it say that God was angered by Satan's accusations. However, His wrath *was* kindled against Job's friends who did not speak the things that were right concerning Him and His servant Job (see Job 42:7).

Well said. It is a very primitive thought process to think that God and Satan had a challenge with Job. Satan is not equal negative power of God. God created Satan and uses his foolish actions for His (God's) glory.

In Job's case as well, Satan thought of destroying Job but God fooled him to bring Job to a higher plane.

Similarly in Peter's case as well, Satan was given permission to test Perter, even though Jesus knew clearly Perter is going to fail. But Jesus knew that Peter will one day speak a short sermon that will bring 3000 people to Christ! To prepare Peter, God used Satan and there by fooling Satan again.

May be it is a Sunday School mistake to show kids that God and Satan had a head to head battle with Job!

I personally believe God permitted Job's children to die because God also knew that Job will not be disturbed by it. God will never tempt anyone beyond what he can take (1 Cor 10:3).

In fact Job came with flying colors, when his Children died he ended up worshiping God. Even when his body was hurt by sores, he said that he is willing to receive both God and bad from God! All this God knew that Job will handle.

But later it was Job's friend's who brought the self righteousness out of Job by their poor council! It was actually his friends who became too much for Job to handle. Hence God was angry at Job's friends because they made a righteous man stumble!

Alec wrote:

//Actually, Solomon101, you are reading things into the narrative that are not there.
You wrote: "In fact there is one time God angrily respond to satan basically saying that satan had pushed Him into this "proving" contest."//

Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, ***although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”*** (emphasis supplied)
Job 2:3

I would like to thank all that have answered thus far.

I would like to first state that there is no doubt that this person I love is saved. However, he has allowed himself to be taken so far away from his First Love that he no longer recognizes the One he once loved. I have seen the enemy pull him further and further away, to the point now that he has been doubting that God is good, and mocks the fact that we use the Bible to prove the Bible, responds to convicting scriptures with a joke or a "meme," and other such things. I know that He Who began a good work in him will complete it, but it is so hard to watch the process.

As to the responses, I have been reading and pondering all of the responses. I think all of them are correct, even if that seems contradictory.

The issue I think is what we think of the nature of God. If we know God is good and merciful and graceful, we come at this question from a different perspective. Job summarizes this thought: "Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?” Job 2:10.

If we think God is like us, then His motives and response seem rather cruel.

And while there may have been what appeared to be a wager, we do no really know God's intent; He does one thing for more than one reason. As someone said, Job did learn something from this, and though he had a "righteous" heart, his idea of God was not entirely correct and he felt justified to judge God.

But these responses are not satisfying to one who is not at peace with God generally. I do not know how to respond to him in a way that makes him understand. Someone mentioned the suffering of Jesus, which was definitely unfair and unjust, and I know that is something we, and I assume he as well, are all glad about.

I don't think there is a satisfactory answer for our earthly minds. It does seem cruel; yet, I KNOW it is NOT because my God is good! My prayer is that the Holy Spirit will reach into his soul and enlighten him with the love of Christ.

Thank you all for taking the time to respond.

EDITED TO ADD THIS: I think, however, that we need to have an answer ready (1 Pet 3:15), and I really don't. It is not enough for me to say, "You have to wait until you understand God," or, "you don't get it because you are unconverted (or your heart is wrong, etc.)." For someone who is seeking, these seem like trite answers to a legitimate question. I will continue praying for the answer that God wants me to give this person (if He wants me to answer him at all).

Natalie.

What God did in Job’s life is clear and not hard to understand factually. We know that God designs and works all things for the good of His children and "all things” in the context of Romans 8:28 is sword, affliction, loss, death, Satanic attacks and suffering . The problem is not that people don’t understand this about God. The problem is they don’t accept " this” God. It is pride for a finite human with a comparatively minisicule wisdom to reject God as He reveals Himself. Human pride in human value and in human standards of "fairness " always result in either a judging of God or a rejection of portions of the whole counsel of God’. Ours is only a partial revelation and explanation by God of Himself and His ways.

//What God did in Job’s life is clear and not hard to understand factually. //

Right, which is why the book has been debated for hundreds of years.

Hi Todd. The facts of what happened are not debated. The why of it is.

Questions: Here are some of God's questions to Job, to me, to you, to your friend with questions, and to all who've been created in His image.

Job 38:2,3 40:2,7-9

Now brace yourself like a man. I will question you, and you teach me the answers. Now gird up your loins like a man, and I will ask you, and you instruct Me!

Will the faultfinder who contends with the Almighty correct Him?
Do you God's accuser, have answers?
Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Will you accuse Me of injustice?
Will you condemn Me to justify yourself?
Do you have power like God's?
Can you thunder with a voice like his?
(read chapters 38-41 for the whole)
______________________

Don't gloss over these questions with a mere glance! These are God's questions we must reckon with.

If you cannot answer as Job does, you must go back to square one. Because the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom. And no answers to any of our questions will be to our satisfaction.

"Behold, I am insignificant; what can I reply to Thee? I lay my hand on my mouth. Once I have spoken, and I will not answer; Even twice, and I will add no more.” Job 40:4,5

Will you add more? If so, prepare yourself for the frustration! You will ever be as this man in the OP who, "...is asking a lot of questions that show he is doubting who God is."

No one was ever meant to be able to give answers to such questions as these which we're faced with in Job.

Who God is! Ah!... Is that not at the root? I quote the following, not to place this man in the OP in the category of wicked men, but to make us all consider what is at the heart of all of our perceptions of providence.

"Wicked men would have God to be any thing but what He is; nothing that God is really and truly pleaseth them." - J. Owen

Here's the best answer:

"Worship God." Revelation 22:9

Not an image you've erected in your mind, otherwise known as an imagination. Otherwise known as an idol.

"Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker”” An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’ Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’? Isaiah 45:9

‘Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand. Deuteronomy 32:39

Here are some answers from the Holy Spirit about suffering for doing good that Job did not receive.

From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.
And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, "Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you." But he turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man." - Matthew 16:23

Sometimes those closest to you have their minds set on worldly and temporal concerns and not on the eternal ultimate things of the Kingdom and the purposes of God for you in ushering in that Kingdom. They want you to have the same temporal focus and concerns they do. Their motives aren’t evil but their concerns are against the will of God for you and even against the goal of God for His Kingdom. Like Peter, God must work on them and in them to change their point of view.

Here is Peter’s changed perspective that Jesus worked in him:

In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith-more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire-may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. - 1 Peter 1:6-7

Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.
But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.
If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. - 1 Peter 4:12-14

I couldn’t agree more 🙏🏻
The book of Job is in many ways the most anomalous and in other ways the most relatable...
When we are temporally minded it (the book of Job) will surely give us fits
Tho when we are focused in eternity the opposite is true,... we even find comfort in the fellowship of suffering-

Recently the Lord showed me another application/interpretation of "if the eye be single” passage that could be applied to Job-

If our eye (vision) is focused in eternity - we will see Gods goodness and as such our whole body is filled with the light of eternity:)
If our eye (vision) is split- vacillating between eternity and temporal then we get confused and will become increasingly self focused and as such we become unfaithful to God as we walk in darkness-
If we believe we have light (faith) while we walk in darkness then it becomes a great difficulty for us to see we are in darkness (deception) because we are unlikely to seek/receive what we think we already have-

(For me) this summarizes the 3 different positions of Job, his wife and his friends...
Job was able to withstand these trials because his eye was set in eternity and not in time,... on the giver and not the gifts,... and then at the end we read "I had heard of you with the hearing of the ear, but now I see you with the seeing of the eye and I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes”

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Job proved himself pure in heart and indeed he saw Him 🙏🏻😇

Nonetheless, the clear text of Job 2:3 says that Satan incited or moved God to destroy Job.

This, despite James 1:13 saying God cannot be tempted by evil nor does He tempt anyone.

The plain reading of Job is that Satan came into the presence of God and goaded God into letting him attack Job and his family. There is no indication at all that God intended to assail Job absent Satan’s goading.

Even if Satan lost the "big” wager as to Job’s ultimate response, he STILL won because he could kill and destroy and inflict one of God’s favorites, which of course is what he loves to do.

Even if Satan lost the "big” wager as to Job’s ultimate response, he STILL won because he could kill and destroy and inflict one of God’s favorites, which of course is what he loves to do.

Wow, going by the same logic, Satan WON on the calvary, because he was able to even KILL, destroy and inflict one with whom God was well pleased! Let us then rewrite all the scriptures that says Jesus defeated satan on the cross!

If this is true, then we are all doomed! No hope of salvation. Praise God it is a lie, Satan was defeated on the cross,.

Exactly Sree. You made my point. Something does not add up in the narrative in Job as it is written.

I can't add much to what has already been said, and I'm not going to try and pick apart the book of Job, I'm just going to point out what it says to me personally, through the spirit. Job doesn't show me that there's really any rewards like Job received in the end, for those who endure the worst of trials and tribulations, even though Job did receive many things back.

Job shows me that I can have patience and faith, in the mist of all my trials and tribulations, and still trust God. I haven't been through all Job went through, but I have lost children, and a wife, and many other things in life. As I was going through my life's trails, I reflected back on the book of Job many times, it help me hold onto my faith and be patient, knowing that my reward would probably be, "my testimony".

I have a powerful testimony, and God has used me to minister to others that have lost love one's, and have experienced many other losses. For me personally, there could be no greater reward than seeing someone come to Christ over my testimony, this is the Lord working through me, showing me that what I've been through was not in vain. I know some may want to pick apart the book of Job, and expect the same experience Job had and the same rewards, for enduring many trials and tribulations, this has never been my challenge, it just ministers to me, what our simple faith and trust can bring us through.

God did not use Job as a pawn, or make a wager with the accuser, he used him as an example that we can overcome even the worst things in life, if we just have patience and faith. People ask me all the time, Bill, how do you continue to move forward after all you have lost, first I tell them I haven't lost anything, I haven't lost my wife and child, I know where they are, you can't lose something if you know where it's at, and I also tell them, I will see them again, God promised me that. I also tell them to pick up their Bible and read the book of Job, when you're finished, it should help strengthen your faith, it should also show you, with faith and patience you can overcome your losses, as Job did.

We all have to remember, yes Job did receive back many of his losses, but I don't read where Job knew he was going to receive all back he lost, as he was enduring his trials and tribulations, if he had known this, he would have never had to trust in God, and hold on to his faith. My post may not help answer all the questions that Natalie's friend needs, but as I said earlier, this is what the book of Job personally ministers to my spirit.

Amen Bill. Thanks for sharing that

Satan said to God: Job serves God because you protect him and his house and family...nothing bad happens to him, touch him and he will curse thee to thy face!

Satan said to God: Job like everyone else, you touch his flesh and he will sacrifice anything to save it...Including you!

God said: You touch him, but do not kill him.

Then over the next 30 some chapters we read the rehearsal of Job's trials, counsels and God's meeting with him.

In the end Bill comes away with this...quote "God did not use Job as a pawn, or make a wager with the accuser, he used him as an example that we can overcome even the worst things in life, if we just have patience and faith. People ask me all the time, Bill, how do you continue to move forward after all you have lost, first I tell them I haven't lost anything, I haven't lost my wife and child, I know where they are, you can't lose something if you know where it's at, and I also tell them, I will see them again, God promised me that. I also tell them to pick up their Bible and read the book of Job, when you're finished, it should help strengthen your faith, it should also show you, with faith and patience you can overcome your losses, as Job did. "

I'd say Bill came away with the right exegesis, Job didn't serve God for reward, nor did Job serve God only when he was in health and prosperous...but even when all was lost.

God's blessing upon Job just added insult to Satan's injury. Job was all that God said he was and Satan after taking Job's health home and family had to watch while God heaped back upon Job health, home and family.

Satan says...How foolish God is to think sinful and depraved man will ever give God true love from his heart.
God says...How foolish Satan is to think I don't know who loves me and who does my will.

Great post Bill.

The patient endurance of Job does point to an important
part of the message of Job. However, we would be amiss not to express to others the worthiness of God that Job’s faithfulness reveals. That second part of the point is the real terminus of the story.

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ - Philippians 3:8

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. - Matthew 13:44

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. - Revelation 3:21

We endure all things and overcome the flesh, sin and the devil, so that we can be with and know God.

The real testimony of the faithfulness of. Jesus, Job, Bill and all God’s suffering and sacrificing saints is the proven joyful worth of our God.

looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. - Hebrews 12:2

Robert your last post was excellent, thanks

but where in Job do you find "the worthiness of God in Job"?

I know where I would look, what about you?

And he said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." - Job 1:21

I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you;
therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes." - Job 42:5-6

Sorry, I left an important passage out.

Behold, we consider those blessed who remained steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful. - James 5:11

Here's a link from 2018 that relates to the OP;

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=56202&forum=48

(For me)
The book of Job is primarily the story of a mans faith in God... a mans unshakable belief in Gods goodness ... his unwavering commitment to obey Him no matter what it cost him or how hard it got... a characteristic was/is shared by all the hero’s of our faith even tho it figures more consistently in some characters and in others had to be learned the hard way- but in all the cases and especially in Jobs’ there was a devotion to the person of God :)

We can always (and most likely will) discuss or debate the how/why of Jobs devotion... but each of our positions will be informed by our experience as well as perspective and concept of who God is -
In each case a persons relationship with God ultimately reveals their perspective-concept-experience of God and in each case it seems God deals with each individual a bit different and ultimately on an equal basis tho as the book of Job reveals, it doesn’t always appear that way.

At the end of the day Jobs devotion proved the proper response,... we could all use a bit more of that 🙏🏻

Natalie,
Has this thread answered any of your questions?

Sandra

Sandra asked: "has this thread answered your questions?"

The answer is: not really. I think it is a difficult question to answer, which is why I don't have an answer myself.

It is funny that in the thread that Savannah provided a quote from me is used several times. Apparently, I said on some thread: "this is the main question in the matter of FAITH: do we TRUST God to be Who He says He is? Do we even know Who He is?"

That is the question here, is it not? For those of us who trust God to be merciful, graceful, and loving the setup of Job is not really a problem. We might not really feel comfortable with it, but we trust our God to be good, so we don't dwell too much time on it.

I think that there really isn't an answer that will satisfy someone who is doubting God. So I will be praying for this person.

Thank you for asking.

Natalie

Everything that God does is good. Everything that God allows others to do, no matter how evil, is for good. That is Scripture no matter how we may resist. If we fight that, then either God is not good or God is not in control.
To suggest that God is in control but He cedes His sovereignty to Satan so that Satan can exercise his own free will is ludicrous. Thus, God is either in control and good or God is not in control.

Robert- are you making God responsible for sin? If you are that’s your prerogative- I’m just can’t tell from your post.

Because, for example, if you are suggesting God uses child molestation for good, we would have to part company on that point.

Some people have said that if God planned for and punished His own Son on the cross with His wrath that He is a child molester. They say we would be accusing God of evil if We say He did this.

Joseph was a favorite of God and in jealousy ripped from his family and sold into slavery by his brothers and was unjustly imprisoned for 13 years even though he did no wrong. All to save the very people who abused him. God said through Joseph that those who did such horrible things planned it for evil but that God planned it for good. Your argument Todd is clearly with God and not me.

You speak as a foolish woman speaks, he told her. Should we accept only good from God and not adversity? Throughout all this Job did not sin in what he said. Job 2:10.

I don’t think I’m sinning Todd in what I’ve said that God says.

Robert-

You are saying that God allows, or directly causes children to be sexually abused by adults for some "good.” You are stating this is an incontrovertible fact.

I am saying that God does no such thing, regardless of how it may appear to us who have very weak minds.

I would never slander God in such a terrible manner. I may not understand it because of the limitation of my ability to comprehend but I would never ever state with 100% certainty that God does horrifying things to children to get some "good” out of it.

Note I am not saying that God could not somehow get good out of it; I am saying it is slanderous and libelous to say that He would use that *method*.

I refuse to lay that at God’s feet, and so should you.

In the last days before Christ comes, the devil and his demons will be unleashed on mankind and the restraint in men of their conscience and the Holy Spirit of peace will be withdrawn. Unbelievable atrocities will occur against people of all ages, even saints and even children. Who commands and releases all that? The Scripture answers that clearly. But, as horrible as all that is, many youth will suffer unbelievable torment for their sin forever from the wrath and cup of God’s anger. Forever. Does this break my heart? Of course. I’m human. But God is not weeping when all this occurs against the ungodly. This is where I bow, praise God for His perfect wisdom and ways, thank Him for my mercy and praise Him for His righteous judgements. This is where I bow rather than accuse.

Uh ... seems odd to have to mention this ... but it is absent from the thread thoughts in any way.

It would be important to be aware that Job did not even know that satan existed. Job attributed all things good and bad to God. You don't see Job even once have an inkling of an idea that he has an enemy. In his mind it's all God ... good, bad, & ugly.

Divine Concurrence is a very difficult subject. I wont in this little post scratch the surface of it, and probably will generate more questions than answers.

God is not the author of sin.

Nevertheless God uses wicked men, nations, ideologies and philosophies indwelling in men to accomplish his own ends.

When one does a fair study of Jeremiah and Ezekiel one cannot come away saying "Well, God just permitted evil". There are way too many chapters, passages and themes where God is directly sending Israel into harms way. Men, women and Children suffered horribly. Rape and murder, starvation and enslavement were all a part of God's judgments on his own people.

If one sits down, turns off the phone, radio and TV and actually thinks through the ramifications of God's sovereignty over the nations...even pagan nations startling conclusions arise. The student of scripture must put flesh and blood on the judgments of God.

We are right when we quote scripture that God is good. We are right when we quote God is a God of judgments.

Difficulty arises when we know God is not blind and deaf to the cries of those who suffer, yet God is not twiddling his thumbs waiting for someone to make the first move toward him. For the most part, it is too dark and foggy to navigate Divine concurrence, where God is working, sin is working, evil is working all at the same time...and the appearances of evil winning for no good reason ( in our minds) is far too often.

Our own county serves as a true example. Why are our children being attacked by the perverse...telling them to decide their own gender, to be what they want. Parents are shamed for interfering with their decisions. LGBTQ rages forward with more and more political clout, silencing and shaming anyone contrary to their agenda.
All of this wickedness...sex trades, corruption, hatreds, violence all flourish before God's judgments.

To some it make sense on a large scale judgment to rid the world of such people, but on the small scale, where little suzy in suburbia was abducted and sold into the same sex trade as those in pagan countries makes no sense.

One thing we do not get to do, is dumb down God and act as if God is just a passive passerby to human plight, nor is it right to use our own morality to judge God when evil is committed in the most senseless and meaningless situations with not even a peep from God.

Wherever you fall in this topic, judging God like the wicked is blasphemous.

Solomon101 wrote:

//It would be important to be aware that Job did not even know that satan existed./

Great point- I never considered that before. And in the story as written, God did not enlighten him. That would have been a tough conversation.

I am not a betting man, but I’d wager that Job knew the story of the fall, the serpent, Kain, the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. pretty well. 👍🙋🏼”â™‚️
Edit to say:
Otherwise God would have shown him, as he was a believer.
Ezekiel 14:14
even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness, declares the Lord God.

Marvin, your point is well expressed. I think when we look at the cross that all the varied views and
"feelings" of God about suffering are clearly seen.

We see God's compassion for the injustice and suffering of the innocent. We also see His compassion and love for His enemies and for the gross sin of those who greatly offend God and cause others to suffer ( all of us, even youth).

At the same time, we see at the cross that no one is "innocent" except Christ. That all deserve judgement and eternal punishment and suffering. We see at the cross that God's compassion, patience and long suffering will one day end and that God hates sin and He hates sinners ( the Bible says both things).

In everyday life, we saw Jesus show such great compassion at peoples' suffering even at times weeping with them and for them. At other times, we see that Jesus is told of the untimely death of many of God's people by a collapsed building and other gruesome deaths by the Romans and His response is seemingly detached....."unless you repent, you will likewise perish."

My case is not that God lacks compassion for sufferers. The cross and the suffering of the innocent for the wicked alone is sufficient to make that case. What I think is missing in most peoples' understanding of God is that He is sovereign over all that occurs on earth. Satan has to seek God's permission in Job and Satan has to ask God's permission to sift Peter and the demons have to ask Jesus' permission to leave a young man. If the demons have to ask permission to leave, one would be curious if they have to ask permission to enter in the first place.

The real issue that people have if they are honest is that they can't "accept" that God is sovereign and loving and yet at the same time, that He superintends over suffering in this life. In their estimation, a loving God would stop suffering if He could. The NT, however, is absolutely wallpapered with God telling and forewarning His people that they will absolutely unjustly suffer and that He "grants" it to them as a privilege for great purposes and He even explains all the purposes of the suffering He ordains for them. I've counted at least 17 different purposes God expresses for the suffering He leads His people through. In many cases, the instruction is to rejoice in that suffering. The historical list of suffering by God's precious chosen children, men, women, and children, at the hands of evil is overwhelming yet, God is behind it all with good purposes whether we agree or not.

As Jesus said to Peter when Peter suggested Jesus shouldn't have to go through injustice and suffering....Get thee behind me Satan. You have the interests of man and not those of God.

Joch wrote:

//I am not a betting man, but I’d wager that Job knew the story of the fall, the serpent, Kain, the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. pretty well.//

Perhaps, but there is no hint of this knowledge in the book of Job. I don’t think it can be taken for granted that he knew. He may have been a contemporary of Abraham or maybe preceded him. God never told Job that he was goaded into killing his children by a devil.

You may take offense at this way of saying it but that is how the story goes. There is no indication whatsoever that God planned to wipe out Jobs family had the devil not offered a wager.

Todd. There is some evidence of Gid’s Plan when Satan wiped out a someone’s children:

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. - Acts 2:22-23

You wrote " God is that He is sovereign over all that occurs on earth”

Is that really true?

Why do you think this?

Thank you
Fletcher

Hello Fletcher,

There are dozens of verses that I could link you to but I was
thinking God’s answers to Satan’s challenge and God’s questioning of Job in that book are really very sufficient. However, and generally, look at Jesus. Commanding and ruling over creation, Satan and demons, money, food, healing, the sea, angels, death, hades, moving of mountains, authority over kings and governments, sustaining all of creation by the power of his word, building His church, holding His brothers and sisters in His love not allowing any created thing to separate Him from them. That should cover it.

I’m sorry dear brother- you move too fast for me, I’m not able to keep up...
So are you saying that God is sovereign over His plan (which includes the law, the prophets, the Christ etc...) ?
Or are you saying that God, the Holy one of Israel, the great I AM is literally sovereign (is the source of and in control over) "all that occurs on earth” ?
Which would include every depraved act of fallen man?

Honestly seeking to understand what you are putting forth as your beliefs-

Hi Fletcher. I will give you a verse to comment on.

The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. - Proverbs 21:1

/ Hi Fletcher. I will give you a verse to comment on.

The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. - Proverbs 21:1 /

Brother Robert,
Firstly thank you for your demeanor, and I hope we can maintain a spirit of fellowship throughout our discussions - - each giving the other "the benefit of the doubt” regarding our chief aim being the glory of God thru the truth of His spirit being revealed and agreed upon, and not simply a base desire to "be right” until which time that fact becomes unavoidable and even then to proceed with a spirit of meekness in all prayerfullness not allowing a spirit of division/bitterness to spring up 🙏🏻😇

Regarding the passage of scripture that you put forth for me to comment on,...
it’s a familiar and beloved passage that I’ve quoted/referenced many times:)
Tho regarding it as a basis of literal fact, it cannot be taken as such -
A Kings heart is not a stream of water in a literal sense and the writer is clearly speaking metaphorically or figuratively to express a theme as he (the writer) perceives it -

This topic can and should be quite exhaustive, in lieu of hijacking this thread, perhaps we should start a separate/new one where we can deep dive this most important subject?

Hi Fletcher and Brother Robert:

If I could jump in with you?

When it is said God controls all that occurs on the earth.
What we don't mean
1. God's works are indistinguishable from Satan's
2. God tempts man to sin in that God is conspirator with a man to sin.
3. Mans sinning is equivalent to doing the will of God, especially if God ordained the occurrence.

This text seems to bring some clarification for those who will hear it.

Isaiah 53:10

Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

"Yet it was the will of the Lord".

The cruel romans whipping him...
The cowardly Pilates shiftiness...
The roman guards blindfolded and slapping him
The Pharisees calling for his crucifixion
The crowd yelling 'crucify him'
Judas Iscariot selling him out for 30 pieces of silver

The will of God to crush and grieve his own Son included sinners of all kinds, with motives, actions of all sorts.

Was God raising the whip? No, But God put Jesus there to be whipped.
Was God cursing and spitting on his own Son? God forbid, but God sent his son to them knowing this was to be his treatment.
Did God design the betrayal of his own Son? No, but God knew who should betray him and Jesus accordingly chosen him to be among the 12 disciples.

But Divine concurrence, where God's working out his own plans and bringing about the greatest display of glory and salvation ever is hemmed in with the sinful act of men, not only foretold but necessary to the extent God was willing to sacrifice his own Son. God received upon his own Son, what we should receive for our sins.

Roman soldiers...just the right ones who would not step back from giving Jesus 39 stripes. Pharisees, religious leaders who would not step back in horror over their corrupt trial and accusations. Disciples who despite big words to stand for Jesus, fled from him or denied him.
The right men, in the right place in the right time, all orchestrated and situated...as a stream of water curves from a hard bank or cuts through a soft bank or rages down a steep drop...cannot deviate from its course on it's own. It is subject to everything around it, that 'everything' was planned and designed of God even as the water itself was purposed to run through it.

So too, a man may harden his heart, he may resist the will of God and insofar as he can he will disobey and rebel against God; nevertheless the man can do nothing to stop God's plan and his active participation in it. He may take credit for his no's or yes's but divine sovereignty has not lessened it's weight or varied it's strength to turn the heart wherever God would have it turn.

Hi Marvin. I concur wholeheartedly with your explanation with one exception. God did "design” the crucifixion of his Son if by "design” you mean the particulars of it. For example, God kept them from breaking his legs. He ordained that he would receive stripes . He kept Jesus from being stoned during His ministry so that He could reach Jerusalem to be crucified instead. The actions of men according to Scripture do not fulfill the foreknowledge of God’s seeing of the future as a prediction but rather the actions of men fulfill the Scriptures. Jesus said "these things must happen to fulfill the Scriptures”.

Thank you for helping to inform the position being put forth- and it does help to further the point, as illustrated by brother Roberts agreement with your exposition of his earlier point.
I am indeed seeking to understand and if you might indulge my ignorance a bit further, it may prove helpful to this end 🙏🏻

You wrote eat the opening ;
"When it is said God controls all that occurs on the earth.
What we don't mean
1. God's works are indistinguishable from Satan's
2. God tempts man to sin in that God is conspirator with a man to sin.
3. Mans sinning is equivalent to doing the will of God, especially if God ordained the occurrence."

You also wrote at the end;
" The right men, in the right place in the right time, all orchestrated and situated...as a stream of water curves from a hard bank or cuts through a soft bank or rages down a steep drop...cannot deviate from its course on it's own. It is subject to everything around it, that 'everything' was planned and designed of God even as the water itself was purposed to run through it.”

It seems that my understanding fails to find continuity between these two positions, as the first seems to disavow what the second allows even expects, with both somehow not expressing an inherent contradiction...
this is not an accusation of fraud or an indictment of malfeasance, simply put this doesn’t make sense to me,... might you help to clarify?

There (for me) seems to be a presumption and then a "filling in” after the fact by things that wouldn’t stand up to a proper inquiry-

For example;
I’m unaware of anyone who disputes Gods sovereignty, foreknowledge, prophecy etc... regarding His plan which certainly includes the passage you cite
/ Isaiah 53:10

Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

"Yet it was the will of the Lord".

The cruel romans whipping him...
The cowardly Pilates shiftiness...
The roman guards blindfolded and slapping him
The Pharisees calling for his crucifixion
The crowd yelling 'crucify him'
Judas Iscariot selling him out for 30 pieces of silver /

Yet again this pertains exclusively to His plan and in no way extends beyond it (that I’ve found in scripture) except to say that there are certain hyperbolic or poetic passages, that if taken literally, "could” be made to fit this order but to do so would render them wholly invalid as being literal-
For example; " 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.”
Now what this is saying is certainly true, but what’s being said is not in a literal sense as no one, not even Jesus, came forth from their mothers womb speaking anything ever, much less lies-
So while if taken in context as it as presented, a writer waxing poetic to frame a spiritual truth in a sincere effort to point to the glory of God (by contrast) then this one simple passage is indeed pregnant with spiritual life, with light to help us find our way... tho if one attempts to take it literally, denying the fundamentals of biology and common sense then even the spiritual truth otherwise contained within is aborted and the parts used, not as intended, but to prop up mans vain attempts to prove himself wise...

So I’m asking for us to all agree and maintain the naturally occurring lines of demarcation between that which is clearly intended to be taken literally as a fact or a potential and that which is clearly metaphorical or hyperbolic with no hope of a legitimate literal application.

Again my only objective is to pursue the truth of Christ wherever it may lead regardless of how unpleasant I may find it-
Having said this, it would be dishonest of me not to disclaim that I do believe that very early on, the early church was infiltrated by Greek (pagan) philosophy and this is evidenced by the fundamental changes in perception or definition of who God is, what He does or doesn’t do, etc... which if removed from present tense Christianity it would quite literally tear it apart much like removing a hair from a biscuit.... it’s just not possible without making an unnecessary mess, which perhaps is why our Lord said wait till the harvest and the tares will be removed on the threshing floor -

Hi Fletcher.

Interpret this then

So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. - 2 Corinthians 12:7

Who "gave” the thorn. Did Satan have a plan to make Paul humble or was it God?

Good morning dear brother :)
My prayer is this finds you rejoicing in the day our Lord has made 🙏🏻
Thank you again for the opportunity to share my faith <

You asked; " Hi Fletcher.

Interpret this then

So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. - 2 Corinthians 12:7

Who "gave” the thorn. Did Satan have a plan to make Paul humble or was it God?

Answer - -
It is written; " 20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good,”

And in another place the scriptures say;
" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

Wether satan has a "plan” or is just opportunistic, (for me) is irrelevant... what does matter tho is we have a great God, one whom can sympathize with our weakness and infirmities, one who knows us just as He desires to be known by us :)))) He says, He has a plan and I believe Him 🙏🏻

Brother Robert:

you said: "The actions of men according to Scripture do not fulfill the foreknowledge of God’s seeing of the future as a prediction but rather the actions of men fulfill the Scriptures. Jesus said "these things must happen to fulfill the Scriptures"

Well, this will knock loose the cobwebs in the head.

Excellent insight.

I believe it's right to lean towards "to fulfill the scriptures" as the principle rather than lean towards mans actions. This is still a little sticky for me...but it's early and Im foggy headed this morning.

Thanks

Hi Brother fletcher.

Articulating something complex in simple terms is sometimes difficult for me.

What appears to be a contradiction (I hope not) is probably due to my own shortcomings in how to explain.

Two things regarding God's sovereignty.

1 God is meticulous...he has the power to work on a great quantity of things simultaneously without error.
2. God is precise...he has the wisdom to orchestrate the vast array of human actions and words to bring about his own desired results.

When I apply those two things regarding God's sovereign rule over the affairs of men I see that even words spoken in haste, mockery, jokingly, threatening can and do bring about the plan of God.
I see even the worst and off-base occurrences guiding people and events toward grander purposes than the human being ever conceived.

These are God's anonymous workings. The behind the scenes God, unseen, unknown, unclaimed yet all belonging to him.

The reality for a man like me is the ability to apprehend the truth of God doing such things. Yet, I have scant ability to comprehend the meticulous precision of how God interworks in all the affairs of men.

Thank you dear brother for your candor and willingness to help me better understand the position you view as the truth of Christ :)
You have always seemed earnest and well researched,... your diligence in searching out a matter is apparent and not in any way in question:)
You (as far as I’ve seen) have, even when we’ve disagreed, always attempted to be fair and considerate and it goes a long way when we conduct ourselves in such a way to represent what we claim to believe:)

Having said this;
May I ask you a sincere and simple question regarding these matters?

Hi.

I have read all the responses in here and am very interested in the discussion (though the topic seems to be changing).

I found something by John Piper that might be useful for my original question.

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/how-should-i-read-the-book-of-job

Natalie

Natalie, what' a romanchog?

Thank you for sharing that link to the research on Job -

Wow! There were several points that had slipped through my filter and as such has given me some new opportunities to dig into :)))

While there were some aspects that might be a bit too speculative for my taste, they were clearly disclaimed and overall I found it to be not only resourceful but also a fun piece material to read and study.
I can honestly say that I hadn’t (on my own) considered Jobs’ ethnicity to be in question tho now... we’ll they made a substantive case for his potentially being a gentile and that would indeed be fascinating if it pans out.
There’s much to tackle and I’m sincerely looking forward to it, it honestly amazes me just how much more the word of God has to give... just when you think you’ve gotten all the meat off that bone, someone turns it over and whoa!!! There’s so much more 😇

Thanks again for sharing it 🙏🏻

Fletcher: you are always welcome to ask me anything.

Thanks for the kind remarks.

you said..."even when we’ve disagreed, always attempted to be fair and considerate and it goes a long way when we conduct ourselves in such a way to represent what we claim to believe:)"

Sometimes that's true, and my reputation has also been
"he brings a double sided axe for his minor surgeries"

For that, I am ashamed.

now...on to the question.

You wrote;
"he brings a double sided axe for his minor surgeries"
Ha!! That literally made me laugh out loud 😆
That literally is why I’m about to ask you this question””

So to the question;

Would you be willing to walk with me through a reconsidering of the most basic and fundamental presumptions of our faith in hopes to have the spirit confirm what is true and expose what is not?

In order to do this we would have to (both) lay down our preconceived ideas,... even definitions of what we think/believe we know and allow the spirit to draw out the meaning He intends, so as to produce the testimony of a witness to the Spirit of Christ - something that can withstand the bias of doctrinal and theological dispositions. Something for the Lord to use to better unify, to better prepare His bride :)

This not something that I would attempt alone or in private,... for both of those would allow too much opportunity for deception or laziness to creep in and snuff out the light - so I would need someone to agree to push back as hard as they can on each and every point (even definitions) and allowing me to push back to the same extent both knowing the other is doing the pushing not to start a fight but to encourage the pursuit and unwavering commitment to the Truth of Gods Spirit being as fully revealed as we are able to allow Him to do in and thru us-

It will take an almost military like level of discipline and at the same time, being supple, malleable, sensitive enough to the promptings of Holy Spirit to literally be lead by Him in every step -
He told me that to even begin to consider embarking on this journey, I would have to be willing to consider I might be wrong... about even the most certain of things regarding Him,... His person, His purpose, His plan, His provisions, etc... honestly that was easy at first to agree to but very quickly He reached to touch some of my most beloved (well founded) doctrines (golden calves) and I reeled, drawing back from Him... and as gently as He has ever addressed me, He showed me how in some cases I love my ideas about Him more than the reality of Him 😔

So that’s how I got here.... I want to know the Truth of who He says He is and I believe He does indeed desire to be known but we are so distracted and so filled with our own ideas (doctrines) there’s no room left for Him to teach us,... to show us who He really is -
And if that’s true I want Him to be able to get a respectable return on the investment He has made in us,... 😇

Hi Fletcher:

A few things.

1. I love your candor and humbleness in being willing to be taught and have a listening ear.
2. I may or may not be the right person for such a request.
3. I too want Jesus to receive the reward of his suffering in that I bear much fruit.

Allow me to begin with my disqualifications for joining you in this.
1. No man ejects his presuppositions. He lives by them, thinks and engages the world around him with them.
2. No man who has already been taught the priceless truth of scriptures sells it as a matter of whim, where by he digs up his own foundations that Christ has laid in his life without doing irreparable damage the building itself.
3. I personally cannot discount the previous work of the Spirit who has been my teacher these 44 years, therefore I could in no way with faith in God believe that what I have learned doctrinally, experientially is simply 'up in the air' and its truth and value need to be reassessed because others in their own way are seeking truth in doctrine and experience.
4. I cannot in good faith deny what I have already been given by revelation. I cannot in good faith reject the work of the Spirit heretofore accomplished in me and has made me what (in some measure) like Christ.

In application

The best I can offer with truth and sincerity is what God has made me with all the doctrine and experience I have been given. With that I am instructed in scripture to judge, discern, listen and pray over and over again whereby what I have received is always put the test, what I have experienced always approved or disapproved by the Spirit's revelation of the word to me.

Lastly, In that the Spirit of God is our teacher and Jesus is our Lord, both of us are fully dependent upon God for the revealing of himself and our own growth and maturity in the faith.

A major paradigm shift of doctrine...I have no faith in it's necessity for me. Minor course corrections along the way...that is the norm for me.

In conclusion you are good a faithful brother who has instructed me in countless posts, I have read and taken heed to the voice of Jesus with your own voice speaking to me confirming the word of God.
I am not sure any change is necessary from what I have been given thus far.

I hope this post is not discouraging to you, I hope by my straightforwardness in this matter you see my love for you and my faithfulness to what Jesus has given to me thus far.

Hi Christinyou.

Romanchog is a username my husband came up with.
Our last name is Roman.
chog stands for CHild Of God.

Not that interesting. ☺

Natalie

That is understandable -

No offense nor discouragement taken,

God is Holy, there is no quarrel 🙏🏻

Thank you Natalie

I think that is beautiful. Now I know the Romans and who I am reading and praying for.

In Christ: A fellow CHOG