We will get through this because...

We will get through this because we are Americans. Though not quite like this, we have faced tough times and situations before and we have always come through because we are Americans and we can face and overcome anything when we set our minds and strengths to do so.

I'm not trying to be a blowhard here or make already tough times tougher. But it seems to me that the sentiments expressed in the opening paragraph above may be the very spirit and attitude that needs to be broken in our nation. Past success in national and world affairs and facing crises of the past and overcoming them can eventually and subtly lead to a pride that fosters a attitude that WE can do whatever we set our mind to. Those are nice sentiments but the strength of man takes central stage in such thinking. The best thing we can do right now as a nation is humble ourselves before God. All national pride, "hey, we are Americans," needs to be broken. Because God has helped us in the past is no guarantee He is obligated to help us this time. We can't take our next breath or tie our shoe unless the Lord helps us and allows it. I know you know this but this crisis is a glaring reminder and questioner as where do we find our strength and reliance as a nation.

Blessings to you and yours. May the Lord keep you and bless you and surround you with ministering angels and may the indwelling Holy Spirit be your strength.

Praying the way Daniel prayed in Dan:9, that's the way we should be praying.

This present crisis can set a new direction for global affairs, prophecies are not there for nothing, their fulfillment don't need our concurrence nor understanding.

Pardon me for bringing this up, somewhere this got posted i.e. "is the current crisis lead to demise of cash and to widespread use of cryptocurrency"or what about a grave economic recession.

Perhaps, these are just wild imaginations, but somehow if they are possible, looming situation lies ahead for many people and economies, at least for a time.

I guess the choice between saving the economy or life is now giving a big headache to our leaders. Herd immunity which the UK chief scientist is aiming to, is the status that can substantially mitigate this crisis.

Massive antibody testing of populations will indicate those who had already infected but successfully developed immunity. It will determine the persons who can safely return to work now or be deployed to the front line.

Well, it is sad, if the people will fail to realize things beyond natural events

The might of America, but do you not wonder why God has allowed America to be in this state and why its very fortune is now becoming a cause of its troubles.

President Trump refuses proposals for enhanced lockdown that may severely cripple the U.S. economy. This can be a huge gamble, I guess it needs people to be in their closet and pray really hard or perhaps fast as the Jews did in the book of Esther.

The punishments and judgments meted out by God are in direct proportion to the gravity of the sins committed. Whatever the extent of the sins are determines the extent of the punishments. It seems only Christians can adequately stand in the gap right now for the church and the nation.

"Amen brother, this is a judgement of the Lord allowed on the earth. "

I'll ask the same question I asked on another thread.

COVID 19 is particularly dangerous to the elderly and those with health conditions. If this is all God's judgement, then does he have something particular against these people?

I think of my very elderly, frail grandmother. Is God out to punish her?

Or even my wife who works in healthcare on the front line and is probably more at risk, is God out to get her? Indeed, should she be helping people who are suffering if it's God's judgement and instead let them suffer their just punishment?

Same goes for other natural disasters. It's very fashionable on Sermonindex (where the topics of wrath, hell, suffering and judgement seem to be the favourite) to say they are always punishments, but it is always the poor, sick and vulnerable that come off the worst in these scenarios. The rich and otherwise healthy tend to do better. That hardly seems like perfect divine justice, but random acts of divine violence.

I mean no sneering in my comment here, these are genuine questions.

Mark said: Same goes for other natural disasters. It's very fashionable on Sermonindex (where the topics of wrath, hell, suffering and judgement seem to be the favourite) to say they are always punishments.

Mark, I won't address that statement, but I will say, 99% of the time I just read now.

It is a phenomenon that hasn’t escaped my attention (the tendency to credit God with disasters) yet it seems as it’s the result of a particular doctrine....

Your points are well taken in that more often than not (your observations are correct statistically) it’s the weakest and most vulnerable among us that suffer the most...

TBH it would not surprise me in the least if it turns out this was a man-made "manufactured” crisis- in which case I wonder would it still be the judgment of God 🤔

We are wise in our own eyes.
We know what causes earthquakes so they are not of God.
We know what causes tornadoes so they are not of God.
We know what causes disease so this is not of God.
We know about Gods love so His anger will not be kindled.
We know about Gods grace so His judgment has to pass us by.
We know the outward appearance of frailty so the hardened heart inside does not need to be touched.
And even if a person were to conceed all these things we "know" how dare anyone even imply that God could use these natural things to bring man back to Himself. How cruel!
No. We know better. We can't see ourselves doing it so we can't imagine the Lord doing it. In doing this we become idolators, creating a god in our own image, hardening our heart, and positioning ourselves as the judge of right and wrong.
I plead with the Church in America and the world. Please wake up. We should not judge the Lord we should judge ourselves that we be not judged. We must stop accusing God to excuse ourselves. Jesus message, Repent! Must be heeded today and now. Before it is too late because one day it will be.

Washad1,

Is this an indirect reply to my post? If so I would rather you do so directly and actually address my points, rather than write general assertions.

You wrote

"We know the outward appearance of frailty so the hardened heart inside does not need to be touched."

If this is reference to what I put about my frail old grandmother, then you have the wrong end of the stick. My Grandmother is a very godly woman who prays for me every day. She is anything but hard hearted.

I am not accusing God and excusing myself - I confess my sins often, and do my best to continually repent. I'm not even denying God's sovereignty over all of this.

My main point is that if we are to say this epidemic is completely the judgement of God (and I do not believe it is), then it does not seem fair or just as the sickness (and the negative economic impact) will have the worst effect on the old, already ill, vulnerable, poor and needy. These are the very people that scripture exhorts us to love and uphold (and some of the prophets even warned of God's punishment for neglecting these people).

Hi Mark: Washad 1 make a good point, namely, if we can connect a materialist answer to any occurrence God is removed by reason of 'the natural events preceding', this demands no supernatural explanation. It's really a humanist model to frame every situation so that humans need only resort to human means and intellect to overcome the situation.

But readers of scripture do not find this model for interpreting such events. What we do find is God in the middle of it all and his own explanations for it's occurrence or non-occurrence.

Every Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Philistine can consult their mediums, counselors and wise-men and obtain the answer most suiting their itching ears. But the Christian does not look at events outside of the Sovereign hand of God, it is not right to blame God for every evil that comes upon the world...nor is it right to dismiss God when evil befalls individuals or a nation.

The answer has always been insight into scripture and much prayer. The answer of 'why'? God permits this or that can be leveled at God for every single event, as we all know, Covid 19 is only one disease and just how many more can be added so as to either blame God, justify God or remove God as we see fit.

But let's not do as we see fit, let us realize whether we know God be the cause directly or indirectly, the Christian has been sent into the world to preach the gospel and minister to all. This means even if God were judging men or women...does not exclude them whatsoever from our prayers, faith and love toward God for their healing and deliverance.

I saw another pride in me during this time. Being a guy in his mid 30s, I was confident that I will survive the virus even if infected. But God later showed me, that I need to put my trust in God not in my age or fitness.

2 Cor 1:10 - He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and He will deliver us. In Him we have placed our hope that He will yet again deliver us,

Had asked this earlier in another thread and got..... crickets-

Perhaps it will garner a response in this one, has anyone here on SI received any direct confirmation and/or mention about this virus from the Lord Himself while in prayer?

Mark. No this was not a post to disparage you grandma. This virus and most unpleasant things hurt vulnerable, frail, sickly, immunocompromised, etc. Frail seemed appropriate as it includes all of the above.
The last paragraph was who this was addressed to: you, me, us, we. The Church. Many pastors are bending over backwards to absolve God of any part in this event and others like it. Its just sad that people are in danger of death, physical and spiritual and many visible "celebrity" pastors are offering them a shot of spiritual morphine to deaden the personal and national conscience the Lord could be trying to awaken.

My apologies if this post or the other hurt anyone. I have many loved ones, elderly and otherwise health compromised who are in danger. My view has always been the church at large so I speak in a general sense.

Fletcher,
My experience with the Lord specifically concerning this is as follows. As it was becoming apparent that the virus was going to become more widespread in the U.S. many were mimimizing the impact it would have. It was only in washington at the time and confined to a nursing home there. On that day I walked by a tv in the break room at work and saw that the largest earthquake in its history had hit salt lake city. I distinctly felt the Lord say "are you still going home to watch tv?"
My impression is that this is a merciful wake up call to the Church to fast, pray, repent, and evangelize. Now it is time, it is high time that we awake out of sleep. For now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

//For now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.//

This is true for every second that has passed for the past 2000 years.

TMK. And will continue to be so until the Lord appears.
It won't be long according to Jesus. To quote the King "surely I come quickly." Amen.

//To quote the King "surely I come quickly." Amen.//

Define "quickly.”

quickly

5035 taxý (an adjective, used adverbially, and derived from 5036 /taxýs, "promptly") ”“ properly, swift (quick), without unnecessary delay; used of God's promptness characterizing how He has ordered all physical scenes of life to happen on His perfect timetable without unnecessary "delay" (Rev 1:1, 22:6).

[5035 (taxý) does not mean "immediately" or necessarily "in a very short time" but rather "without any delay."]

So, I think the word carries with it the connotation that on God's timetable, when the proper time in God's ordering of all things has arrived, Christ will come again quickly without any unnecessary delays. From the definition given, it does not seem to mean very near in the future a very short time after He spoke it.

//From the definition given, it does not seem to mean very near in the future a very short time after He spoke it.//

Obviously. But any suggestion that right now in March 2020 all of a sudden "quickly” DOES mean "very soon” seems dubious at best. Of course it will be sooner to now than it was 2000 years ago.

So, I think the word carries with it the connotation that on God's timetable, when the proper time in God's ordering of all things has arrived, Christ will come again quickly without any unnecessary delays. Therefore, it does not seem to mean very near in the future after He spoke it.

That is a right interpretation. Jesus did not say 'I am coming soon', instead he said he is coming quickly. Which means when the time is right his coming will be so quick that there will not be anytime to set things right. So it is better to set it right now when we have time. WHich means we live with clear conscience towards God and man.

I just want the church to be ready and her membership pure however and whenever they meet the Master.
Thank you David for the powerful reminder that our help comes from the Lord.

/ this is a merciful wake up call to the Church to fast, pray, repent, and evangelize. Now it is time, it is high time that we awake out of sleep. /

That we can agree on :)

Still it’s a leap to say God caused this to bring judgement on the ungodly...

For example; on an average year the US experiences approx 40 million flu "infections” with over 25,000 deaths - just two years ago over 65,000,000 Americans got the flu and over 80,000 died-
These numbers which just include the USA dwarf the current Global numbers of coronavirus and yet not even a Chuckie-Cheese was closed much less the whole world being "shutdown” with national guard being deployed to all 54 territories and both boarders closed and international flights suspended all for some flu like symptoms??!!!

So why, when the average death toll from an average flu season just in the US exceed the current global numbers of coronavirus, is the "regular” flu not also considered Gods judgment on the ungodly??
I mean it kills and effectively "judges” far more prolifically... 🤔

Could it be that the "fear porn” hype machine that is mainstream media has created a hysteria around this virus that is far more damaging than the virus could ever hope to be?

Which is why I keep asking - has anyone personally heard from the Lord on this?

As it seems we are all (for the most part) reacting to the "bad report” and not responding to the "promise” to the "better word” our Lord so graciously offers His children -

Remember how He says He is gonna divide the sheep from the goats...?
Well goats will eat anything -
Sheep need to be led to pastures -

We would do well to limit our intake/consumption of worldly news report for we know the "god of this world” is a liar,... and we would do well to keep "our oil” filled in the lamp of faith by regularly consuming the Word- least our bridegroom call and we missed it being distracted with the cares and concerns of the world :/

"Lord I found your word and I ate it”

You are what you eat ;)

You get my point bro. Below is a portion of President Trump's letter today to governors.

TRUMP CORONAVIRUS MARCH 26 LETTER TO GOVERNORS

"Together we are proving that no challenge can match the indomitable strength, ingenuity, and determination of the American people,” Trump wrote.

docs: I think what he means is it is guaranteed that if we put our heads and efforts together and we will get through this. It's guaranteed because we are Americans. This is what bothers me. Meanwhile, I haven't heard one voice from the conservative movement or whatever it is mention God one time during this whole thing. A national confession and breaking of our pride would be a good thing at this point it seems.

You wrote; "I haven’t heard one voice from the conservative movement or whatever it is mention God one time during this whole thing”
Ok now that’s just either laziness or deliberate.... neither gets a prize -
This literally took a few minutes to pull up via a search so either you didn’t look for it or you didn’t want to find it.... Because your above statement lays a hefty charge -

Donald J. Trump
✔
@realDonaldTrump
It is my great honor to declare Sunday, March 15th as a National Day of Prayer. We are a Country that, throughout our history, has looked to God for protection and strength in times like these....

374K
5:54 PM - Mar 13, 2020

While I understand our current POTUS may not be up to your standards,... he’s done more in 3 years to restore this nation than any other president in the past 100 years... and that’s something we can definitely give credit to God for 🙏🏻😇

Every President of the last few decades has likely signed off on these national days of prayer. It's part of the thing you do when you are President. President Obama likely did it.

I'm very thankful to this day President Trump has been allowed to be in charge of our nation right now instead of another President Clinton. He got my vote. He governs as a CEO who wants results and not political talk with no action. Yet what President, even this one, has had the courage to stand up and openly and unashamedly say that our national pride needs to be broken before any true restoration of the country can take place? I admit I'm likely spoiled to a degree in wanting to see this. Meanwhile at the church I attend, we pray for this President regularly.

Yeah but ummm... you said you hadn’t heard a conservative mention "God” one time in all this - well now you have :)
And it was the President of the United States that did it and did so in a sincere way with the intent to unite our nation around the concept of looking to God for help 🙏🏻

Not to mention what all his administration has done to remove drug cartels, corporate and political corruption as well as substantial damage to global and domestic human and child traffickers- when you look at the numbers of arrests, resignations, etc... its astonishing! Especially considering he’s constantly being attacked by a groups of godless, baby killing, transgender promoting, Christ hating, child trafficking, corrupt people who don’t want (for the most part) to be delivered from their sin - the celebrate it with lavishness and what’s more their master - the Media- opposes all things good and godly not to mention perpetually spreading lies and misinformation is his biggest critic for attempting to restore this nations moral foundations and not kowtowing to their agenda no matter how hard they try to shame him for not going along with it !

They are the ones creating a frenzy around the corona virus and desperately trying to stop what’s coming for them ... it won’t work !
The virus is real and the threat is real but the reaction is manufactured and the numbers sited in my previous post clearly reveal this-

We are being presented with an amazing opportunity for our Lord to be publicly magnified by our faith in Him, displayed by the Joy, peace, comfort and rest that only He can provide:) we have the ability to help untold numbers come to faith in Christ and be welcomed into His Kingdom but that is only going to happen if we are beholding Him - The world is watching, looking, wanting an answer... let us be instant in and out of season to give an answer for our Hope 🙏🏻

Like I said, I'm glad he has been allowed to be in charge of this nation right now. Truth be told, in the hustle and bustle going about these days I seemed to have missed his March 15 declaration of a day of prayer. Perhaps I just wasn't keeping up closely with things right then or either the media just didn't cover it. There's not a thing this President can do to satisfy his critics in the media. Journalism really doesn't exist in this country anymore in my opinion. President Trump said the main thing we weren't prepared for in this crisis was the media. The Governor in Minnesota where I now reside has called for a shut down beginning tonight at 12 PM. So after work today I'm coming home until April 10. I'll be isolating and hopefully spend time with the Lord in self examination and trying to keep His word before me.

Many years ago when I lived in North Florida I visited Dothan once or twice and once was when I was in a Chrisitian meeting there. It is a nice city and I pray divine protection and the best for all of you there.

Thank you.

JFW wrote:

"Still it’s a leap to say God caused this to bring judgement on the ungodly..."

I think you would agree if you thought about it that all calamity is a judgement by God against the sins of mankind.

A question in this case then, is whether God is sending this judgement on the earth as a warning against sin and its consequences like "repent or you will likewise perish" and I think we could agree that at least this warning is true.

The second question is whether this also is a warning to God's people not to put their confidence in this life, in health, wealth and prosperity that is found in temporal life. We have taught much against the prosperity gospel but have done a good job of justifying living out that gospel as somehow consistent with the Christ like walk.

And connected to that question is whether the people of God are too focused on building their own lives, kingdom on earth and establishing their desires, homes and goals in this world instead of looking forward to the city built by God and focusing on building His Kingdom ( and not their own) as their first and highest priority. This I believe is true. Here is God's "warning" through the prophet Haggai:

"Thus says the LORD of hosts: These people say the time has not yet come to rebuild the house of the LORD."
Then the word of the LORD came by the hand of Haggai the prophet,
"Is it a time for you yourselves to dwell in your paneled houses, while this house lies in ruins?
Now, therefore, thus says the LORD of hosts: Consider your ways.
You have sown much, and harvested little. You eat, but you never have enough; you drink, but you never have your fill. You clothe yourselves, but no one is warm. And he who earns wages does so to put them into a bag with holes. "Thus says the LORD of hosts: Consider your ways.
Go up to the hills and bring wood and build the house, that I may take pleasure in it and that I may be glorified, says the LORD.
You looked for much, and behold, it came to little. And when you brought it home, I blew it away. Why? declares the LORD of hosts. Because of my house that lies in ruins, while each of you busies himself with his own house.
Therefore the heavens above you have withheld the dew, and the earth has withheld its produce.
And I have called for a drought on the land and the hills, on the grain, the new wine, the oil, on what the ground brings forth, on man and beast, and on all their labors." - Haggai 1:2-11

Yet now be strong, O Zerubbabel, declares the LORD. Be strong, O Joshua, son of Jehozadak, the high priest. Be strong, all you people of the land, declares the LORD. Work, for I am with you, declares the LORD of hosts,
according to the covenant that I made with you when you came out of Egypt. My Spirit remains in your midst. Fear not.
For thus says the LORD of hosts: Yet once more, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land.
And I will shake all nations, so that the treasures of all nations shall come in, and I will fill this house with glory, says the LORD of hosts.
The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, declares the LORD of hosts.
The latter glory of this house shall be greater than the former, says the LORD of hosts. And in this place I will give peace, declares the LORD of hosts.'" - Haggai 2:4-9

There are precious living stones, more valuable than silver and gold that God will shake from the nations if His people will go and build His church as their first and highest priority, if they will go and make Jesus supreme in all the earth. Unfortunately, many of God's peoples' highest priority is building their own kingdoms on earth.

I'm not trying to take advantage of peoples' suffering to push a theological pet doctrine or agenda. We must have compassion on the suffering and comfort them. At the same time, God does speak in suffering, calamity and through His prophets and God has said in 2 Chronicles 36 that His prophetic warnings and even His measured calamities are His expressions of compassion and mercy before there is no remedy left for His peoples' disobedience.

Each can form his own opinion or interpretation for what God is saying in a calamity, but be assured He is speaking in and through it. God has a purpose in this and I do not think God is saying "nothing to see here, peace, peace, this too shall pass". Perhaps God is speaking to each of us individually to consider our ways and to focus on walking in His Way and work on building His Kingdom, His church, His body in the nations so that we can deliver to Christ the reward of His suffering, the inheritance of the nations.

Please understand that my primary concern is the truth, the person of Jesus and we have been given a glorious gospel by Him, the healing of the nations, to take unto the poor and needy... to the weak and elderly,.... to the fatherless and homeless,... to the lame and leper’s - and yes to those with this Chinese flu virus !

Ours is not a passive gospel nor is it a weak one, for the truth we bear is of God and is mighty to save,... yes even from this Chinese flu virus !
Our gospel equips us to do battle and war with powerful weaponry and we are commissioned to pull down strongholds (interconnected web of lies) of the enemy, taking every thought captive making it obedient to Christ :)))!!!!

We keep sayin we want revival!??? Well the stage is set! The fields are white with harvest!!... but the workers are few -
Revival, the spark - the light of Christ, shines brightest in the dark.
Right now the world is literally being sedated, sequestered under a spell of lies that has cast a spiritual veil over the eyes of those who know not the Lord...
if His children, the children of light don’t take opportunity to fight back, cutting down the lies that ensnare others with the sword of Gods word, His very Spirit!!! Then who will?? And why were we redeemed to begin with if all we do is cower in the corner, huddled in fearful masses just like the ungodly,... just like those who never knew Him or even met Him !???
GOD FORBID!!!
Let us labor while it is still day for night cometh when no one can work-

Let us all ask ourselves this;
If Jesus the Christ were presently walking the earth , would He self-quarantine all fearful and being seen wearing a surgical mask for protection!!????

Guess what? He is on the earth and WE ARE HIS BODY!!! If we bow our knee to this tactic of the enemy we will lose something that cannot be recovered!
I’d rather be spent for His namesake and counted a fool than to be found a spineless, cowardly hypocrite who’s faith is as fickle as the appetites of godless children!
There are some "hours” in time that are more important than others, the scriptures clearly bear this out,... if we shrink back from this encroachment of the enemy.... if we don’t armor up! if we don’t seek His face with the intent on sacrificing ourselves for the advancement of His kingdom at all costs then we have failed His grace and walked not worthy of the gospel wherewith we were called!!

The whole earth groans and travails awaiting the manifestation of the SONS and DAUGHTERS of GOD

and as many as ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THESE ARE THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD

He saved us for this, to be a light unto the world -
Let us stir up the gift that is in us lest we forget that we have within ourselves the remedy that not only heals those in fearful bondage but brings glory to God!

We’re either gonna be sheep or goats...
#dontbeagoat

Much of what you wrote finds agreement with the spirit which is within me:)

Having said that - you say that "all calamity” was a from God ...

Not sure that’s something that the scriptures bear out- unless you’re using that word in a more narrow way than it sounds?

For example-
When Pharaoh killed all the first born of captive Israel... that was by definition a calamity... are you saying that our God is the author of thar sin?

No doubt the Lord used it to the good as He can use ALL THINGS but that doesn’t mean He causes all things....

Regarding this particular "calamity” ...
it’s clearly man made and the hysteria surrounding is "artificial” and is itself a web of deception, intent on taking captive and devouring all those whom it can.
So do I believe that our God can and will use this "calamity” to speak?
Yes
Do I believe our God is the author of this "calamity” ?
No
Do I believe our God created and released the flu to bring down judgement on the ungodly?
No

Jesus, so say the scriptures, was the express image of God- the fullness of the Godhead dwelling bodily-
And Jesus brought; healing, hope, peace, comfort, joy, grace, mercy, deliverance and warnings,.. but not calamity and affliction!

Let us be certain of our message lest we lay a snare, a stumbling block before those whom would otherwise joyfully enter His kingdom but be turned away by our word-

Brother Fletcher

In a broad and not narrow sense, all murder is a consequence of the judgement of God against sin. God gives man over to a hardened and evil heart as a consequences of sin. So yes, I think Scripture does bear out that all calamity was ordained by God as a consequence of the sins of mankind.

Here's a text that I think bears out the doctrine I am speaking of and actually speaks directly to the murder by men of a first born son:

for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. - Acts 4:27-28

I don't believe the idea that I shared should be described as a snare but rather a stumbling block

Again that passage speaks directly of a predestined plan of God to bring HEALING and SALVATION to the world of sinners by the sacrifice of His Son...

It’s a real stretch to take that passage as a license to say God causes all calamity and sin?
That’s crazytown talk!

So you’re sayin that our God, the Holy One of Israel is the author of the abortion of millions of unborn babies??? That He, Himself is actually controlling it - causing it to happen !???

Perhaps it would be good if I just suggested that Deuteronomy 28 from verse 15 on addresses your point/question better than I could from my own imaginations.
It's lengthy so I won't quote it here but it is quite illumining on this point. Let me know what you think.

Wow brother Robert!
Seriously???
I’m hoping you aren’t aware of the context of that passage and why the Lord was saying that and to whom He was warning and are not attempting to (with knowledge) pass that off as a current means by which the God of creation deals with the people on the earth? For to do so is to render the cross of none effect and absolutely deny the sacrifice once and for all for sIn- ultimately negating the very blood of the NEW COVENANT withwhich we have been sealed unto the day of the Lord.

Again the cross and the work thereof is the only hope 🙏🏻😇

Hi Brother Fletcher:

Reading over your conversation with Robert I wanted to chime in on one point.

In regards to the law, Paul said the law was good and that he had not known sin except by the law Rom 7. Who was Paul speaking to? Devout Jews under Moses care? No, pagan romans who have now become Christians. Paul said this so that the ex-pagans could understand God's law transcends times, peoples and cultures. Yet, so does God's punishments and judgments based on that same law.

Sodom judged and overthrown, Jericho overthrown, pagan kings and their empires...not gospelized but judged based upon the knowledge available at that time.

It is very acceptable to understand God as keeping his holy law intact and valid during this whole time of trial upon the earth while mankind lives on it.

It is not a dismissal of grace and gospel to recognize as did Paul Jesus sacrifice didn't annul the law but validated it and established it as binding upon all mankind. Why because God's grace establishes the validity and terror of the law by showing God's goodness in Jesus receiving the sinners due judgment for breaking that law...all of this you know well.

I think it's fair to use Deut 28 in this current time to reveal God's judgments against sins...as He has always done.

The original thought:

Because we are Americans and our strength and ingenuity is next to none, we will get through this as we have all else that has ever faced us. Because we are Americans. This is what we do.

What politician or national leader has voiced the fact that this attitude that seems a strength of character may indeed be part of the problem at this point? If the church is supposed to come forth and shine right now with the right perspective and the correct voice from on high is this church willing to voice this message - our national pride needs to be broken.

This was the thought behind the original post. A truly prophetic church which most agree we must become may not have a altogether popular message. What do you think?

Dear Brother I have one question;
Was sin judged on the cross?

//What politician or national leader has voiced the fact that this attitude that seems a strength of character may indeed be part of the problem at this point?//

Certainly not Winston Churchill during WW2. You seem to be suggesting it is wrong for national leaders to try to inspire their countrymen. I will never agree with this. In a situation like this it is all hands on deck.

Of course this includes the church and the church should be doing what the HS wants it to do. This is independent of any cheerleading by Trump or whoever.

Hi Fletcher,

I wasn't using Deut. 28 to establish a NT covenant of works. I was only using it to show what God would do to youth, babies and even those in the womb because of His peoples' disobedience. He did the same thing throughout Israel's history. You had made the point I believe that God would never be authorizing or bringing about the destruction of the unborn in the temporal.

Again, in this instance especially, I am not suggesting that God's true people are subject to God's eternal condemnation. Just a temporal judgement as decided by God to correct, discipline and chasten His children.

We must be able to discern the difference between God's loving and compassionate correction of His children through painful but corrective temporal means and and the final wrathful judgment of condemnation that might begin on earth per Revelation but find its ultimate consummation in eternal wrath which is actually much worse than any temporal pain and suffering for the unbeliever.

Throughout the Bible there are instances where God's people are taken out of this world ( killed ) in order to spare and save them from continuing in sin and a sure condemnation at final judgment. 1 Corinthians 11.

Thank you for the continued dialogue :)

You wrote;” You had made the point I believe that God would never be authorizing or bringing about the destruction of the unborn in the temporal.”

Actually that’s not what I said- and as such would be a mischaracterization
of the question I asked you... tho having said this I don’t see that there is really middle ground - one of us is in gross error and neither of us seems to be open to actually have our minds changed...

Is that a far assessment in your opinion?

Hi Brother Fletcher:

Well, in the abstract sin was not judged on the cross simply because it had already been judged according to God's law. We know sin because the Spirit of God testifies to God's law in the form of conviction.

Maybe this sounds a little to precise, but sin has always been judged of God according to his revealed will=law=testimony=commandment=precept=ways.

Jesus sacrificial death didn't judge sin, it judged us, we who sin...and because Jesus was pure, we who sin may now be made righteous as he was made a sin-sacrifice for us.

Sin and law left in the abstract or existential really can confuse matters. When we recognize we are judged by the law according to what we have done, this places sin where it should be and connects us to Jesus sacrifice in reality.

Hope this answers the question.

/You seem to be suggesting it is wrong for national leaders to try to inspire their countrymen. I will never agree with this. In a situation like this it is all hands on deck./

I'm not suggesting that at all. I believe it is wrong though to rally the country to trust in our own "American" ability to overcome in the strength and ingenuity of man. I did see President Trump recently say that with our determination and ability and the grace of God we will get through this. Amen. I just wish there was more.

Everyone has their own way of looking at America. I am grateful and oh so thankful to born in America.

Saying that, imho, being an American isn't going to get me or anyone else through this. If our hope is in America alone, we are doomed (not saying anyone said that). It's not because America is bad but it's because our hope (treasures) is not focused on earthly things (America) and not on heavenly things.

Is not He your Father who has bought you? He has made you and established you. ~ Deut 32:6

All Christians need to be careful, in Judges 8 when Gideon died it says in verse 34: Thus the sons of Israel did not remember the Lord their God, who had delivered them from the hands of ALL their enemies on EVERY side..."

In these times we don't want to forget what the Lord has already done for us and what He will do for us again. "Stay close by (the Lord), we've never been this way."

God bless,
Lisa

Man has lost control of the coronavirus, the Lord God has not. It will ravish the nations until His purposes are fulfilled.

Psalms 33

8 Let all the earth fear the Lord;let all the inhabitants
of the world stand in awe of him!
9 For he spoke, and it came to be;he commanded, and it
stood firm.
10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of
his heart to all generations.
12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord,the people
whom he has chosen as his heritage!
13 The Lord looks down from heaven;he sees all the
children of man;
14 from where he sits enthroned he looks out on all the
inhabitants of the earth,
15 he who fashions the hearts of them all and observes
all their deeds.
16 The king is not saved by his great army;a warrior is
not delivered by his great strength.
17 The war horse is a false hope for salvation,and by its
great might it cannot rescue.
18 Behold, the eye of the Lord is on those who fear him,
on those who hope in his steadfast love,
19 that he may deliver their soul from death and keep
them alive in famine.

/All Christians need to be careful, in Judges 8 when Gideon died it says in verse 34: Thus the sons of Israel did not remember the Lord their God, who had delivered them from the hands of ALL their enemies on EVERY side..."/

And a nation can do this as a whole. Look where we have gone since WWII for instance. That's a very timely scripture. When if ever will the cycle of being delivered then forgetting be broken?