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Steve Gregg on Unconstitutional Coronavirus Restrictions and Romans 13

O
Oracio

From Steve Gregg/The Narrow Path Facebook Group:

Christine wrote:
"Hi Steve - I agree with much of what you're saying. I know that Peter said we are to obey God and not man. It seems that Christians have differing ideas about whether a temporary suspension of gatherings violates the scriptural direction to "not forsake the assembling of ourselves." And how does Romans 13:6-10 fit into our Christian paradigm right now?”

Steve Gregg’s reply:
"Hi Christine,
Many Christians who have become concerned about government overreach are asking themselves, "How much toleration of such governmental abuse does Paul require me to endure patiently, according to Romans 13?" Paul does not say that governments have all authority (only Jesus has that””Matthew 28:18). Paul, in fact, says that governments have only such authority as God has ordained for them””which is limited to criminal law enforcement, national defense and taxation.
Apart from that, each nation places its own restrictions, or lack thereof, upon legitimate governmental power, by either a written or assumed charter. In this country, the very founding documents place the people above governmental officials in most respects. The officials are public servants who are to serve at the pleasure of the governed. The officials are not the bosses. Those who elect them are the bosses, whom the officials are elected to serve. This is, of course, entirely different from the way most nations understood government five-hundred years ago, but it is the understanding of modern constitutional republics, like ours.
Remember, the supreme authority of this country (under God, I mean) is the U.S. Constitution. This is not true of every country, but in this country the Constitution defines the rights of citizens which the government cannot legitimately curtail. For several years, specific government entities have been gratuitously violating more and more of these rights and having gotten away with it. They are pushing the envelope, to see how far they can go.
If our memories need to be refreshed, remember when it was possible to express your opinion about the definition of marriage without losing your job? Or when it was possible to exercise your religious freedom to abstain from certain professional activities which violate your conscience, without being threaten with jail? Or when a person could defend his home and family with a gun without being treated as if he is the criminal? Or could attend a free and peaceful assembly to worship God according to his conscience at whatever risk to himself he might choose?
An American citizen must submit to all Constitutional authority””unless it violates biblical morality. Behavior on the part of government agents (whether elected or police), which violates the Constitution, is rogue activity””even if it become standard and widespread. I cannot think of any Constitutional authority that I would be required to violate for conscience sake. The Constitution defends everyone's legitimate rights, and no command of God would ever require me to violate anyone's legitimate rights. If governments do what they are authorized to do, they will hear no complaints from me.
I do not think that civil disobedience against mandates that violate my rights is a Christian obligation, per se. For me to have my rights violated is something that, as a Christian, I am prepared to suffer on behalf of Christ or my brother. On the other hand, when unconstitutional authorities are illegitimately violating everyone's rights, my concern for my fellowman may require my speaking up for justice. If there is a trend of unjust governmental activity that has no Constitutional warrant, then speaking and standing against it may become a Christian duty, simply out of love for my neighbor.
Again, I have personally suffered nothing from the shelter-in-place policies. I have plenty of toilet paper. My concern is for people whose lives are ruined, who lose their jobs and their homes, and, in some cases, their lives, due to inept and callous government response to a virus that has turned out to be less deadly than anyone anticipated””less deadly, in fact, than the annual seasonal flu, for which no one has every found reason to shut-down the world's economies, or to restrict Americans' Constitutional freedoms.
I do not believe (and a constitutional scholar is welcome to prove me mistaken) that any elected official has the right, by a unilateral pronouncement or the stroke of a pen, to open-endedly cancel the Constitutional rights of an entire non-criminal population. Laws are to be made by legislatures, not executives, both at the federal and state levels.
Short-term restrictions for the general safety of the public probably fall under the purview of executive orders, but can anyone pretend that the public good or safety is served by tyrannical restrictions such as the following:
1) A California surfer being fined for being alone on the ocean with his surf board?
2) A Pennsylvania woman being fined $200 for going out for a drive alone at night?
3) Glendale, California placing a $1,000 fine upon those who walk their dogs without wearing a mask?
4) The Michigan governor making it punishable to drive from one's city home to one's own second home on the lake? Or to go on the lake in a motorized boat””even though it is permitted to go on the lake in a non-motorized (green-agenda-friendly) boat?
5) Locking down people in states where there is almost no occurrence of the virus?
6) While allowing people to congregate at food markets, Costco, Walmart, liquor stores, and government offices, nonetheless forbidding more than ten Christians to be in one place?
Would anyone wish to embarrass himself trying to logically defend these nonsensical rules?
When we see the meaningless restrictions being dictated to a supposedly free people, it is clear that something far more than public safety is on their minds. They are pushing the envelope ever so gradually to see where the tipping point is for a formerly free people's tolerance for the violation of their Constitutional rights. No awake person can call this a conspiracy theory. There is absolutely no rationale for these restrictions based upon any legitimate health threat. It is simply government exercising its muscle. Nothing but a love of power and addiction to overreach can explain these dysfunctional behaviors on the part of certain elected officials.
I am very alarmed at the way many lives are being destroyed by these governmental actions. The long-term disruption of many families' lives for the sake of a virus that has proved to be far less deadly than any of the alarmists anticipated, seems completely disproportionate. Numerous experts say the statistics on the rise in alcoholism, drug addition, domestic violence and suicide are traceable to the lock-down. It is credibly possible that more people may die, or have their lives ruined by the governmental response than will be impacted long-term by the virus.
The government did not cause the pandemic, but a certain kind of politician will never let a good crisis go to waste in pressing for more power over the people. A precedent is being sought. If the population simply rolls over and lets Unconstitutional governmental actions strip them of their legitimate rights, such intrusion will become the trend, and will be pressed ever-further each time it recurs. If the American people respond by holding their elected officials responsible for criminal overreach (particularly by un-electing them), or by taking even stronger measures of protest (itself a Constitutional right), perhaps the criminal interlopers will think twice before trying it again.”

J
JFW

Brother Oracio,

Thank you for sharing this !

It is very much in line with my understanding and it’s encouraging to hear, others whom have a broader platform and greater public credibility, speak up and speak out honesty and soberly helping to elucidate what has become a difficult situation to navigate for allot of people. With so much misinformation and disinformation muddying the waters it’s refreshing to hear such a clear and earnest plea for sanity and accountability not simply from our government and healthcare officials but most importantly from us!!

S
staff

Hi Oracio,
This is simple for me ,washing hands ,distancing and shuting down events saves lives .I think the reaction by the federal government seems about right .I think the reaction by people protesting about constitutional rights is over the top to early on .
If this was the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic nobody would be complaining about closing down for a couple of months .Why because it killed healthy people in their prime really quickly within 4 or 5 days or less.
This is only really an issue because these communities protesting havent been hit hard enough by the virus.Go to Italy or Spain and people wont be so selfish.The USA has a pro Christian,Pro Israel and pro constitution government in place and they are doing their best and if it were your grand mother or father or sick relative that was in danger of dying you wouldnt be protesting,staff

J
JFW

Not sure if you didn’t read the transcript from Steve Gregg that Oracio posted but it doesn’t sound as if you did from your response...

No where did it mention "the federal government” as a whole but carefully singled out individual examples of state governors whom clearly overreached their authority, people responded with peaceful (albeit passionate) protests which is the lawful response.

Also you cite Italy and Spain as examples of being "not selfish” tho you do so without making the distinction, that as beautiful as these countries are, they have socialist governments and simply aren’t afforded the same rights guaranteed by our Bill of Rights or the civil liberties guaranteed by our Constitution.... so the comparison doesn’t really hold up under scrutiny for a host of reasons with the obvious one being economics. Under a socialist system the state has a far greater response for the financial well being of the citizenry where as in a representative republic We the People share the burden not the government, which was one of the main points of the OP- namely that those whose small businesses and or livelihoods have been destroyed by the overreacting to a condition that is not much worse than the seasonal flu (death toll numbers) then the fallout from the response will ultimately have a greater negative affect than the virus itself. So perhaps the people who aren’t protesting haven’t seen enough of those around them lose their jobs, businesses, homes etc. to realize that punishing people for walking their dogs without wearing a mask by fining them $1000 is heartlessly discompassionate and ultimately doesn’t serve to protect anyone?

Having said this I do agree with your assessment that the Federal Government has done everything possible (within their powers) to serve the people as effectively as possible and should be commended for their efforts as they have surely saved countless lives 🙏🏻

There are many positives to this situation and Lord willing many people who wouldn’t normally, will seek and find Him 😇

S
staff

Hi JFW,
No I read it and what I am saying is the federal government are on top of the situation no matter what happens locally.
Im all for the bill of rights ,its a great thing but it looks like these people have jumped the gun protesting.
The EU are socialist but that doesnt always play out for individual countries within the EU sometimes you have right of centre governments.
The Coronavirus is not just the winter flu and the EU in total have passed 80,000 dead so the US has got off lightly,Europe in Total is past 100,000.The reason they are not protesting in Europe is nothing to do with different systems,its because Europe has been hit harder(because it wouldnt stubbornly close borders) and realize that if you dont isolate, older people,sick people and vulnerable people die if we dont.
Across Europe evictions have been suspended so no one can lose their homes in the next 3 months but everybody like in the US they are not working and businesses are suffering too.This seems more like to me an Economic complaint dressed in guize of a Bill of rights complaint.I dont believe we can stay on Lockdown indefinitely but equally we cant put our own jobs and businesses ahead of the weak and infirm.
The Federal government have given an estimate of up to 2.2 million deaths if their were no lock down and I heard a woman protesting saying she want to get her hair done!How crazy is that.Equally as crazy and heartless as a 1000 dollar fine.
My other point is that if the people with businesses and jobs etc were at risk of losing their own lives to Covid 19 rather the people in nursing homes and with underlying health issues they wont be complaining about their Bill of Rights ,that compares to their own lives would appear to be a luxury at that stage,
The US as you know is always on election footing in some form or other ,if someone has stood on your rights Kick them out of power next time!
Also playing into this whole topic is the very complex "fear" Americans have about losing democracy either by stealth or quickly by force.The whole political system in the US is brilliant in a way because it is set up so no one can have too much power at anyone time.The real genius about the US system is that it designed delibrately not to function fluently.
I am a firm believer that socialism is not a Godly system and that the best system we have is a caring capitalistic system.However regardless of the system if the federal government puts in place a lockdown then they have to have to the best of their ability away of sustaining everyone during the lockdown.Also long after US jobs and businesses have recovered most other countries will still be suffering,the US will be benefiting from the lockdown they are now enduring ,urs staff

S
staff

Hi
Just one footnote Corona is not like the winter flu death wise because if you let the winter flu run its course over the season it wont kill 2.2 million people,staff

J
JFW

We categorically disagree on allot of what’s being discussed and will most likely not agree on the points of contention, as such there is no reason to continue going back and forth- having said that, the reason (I believe) thar we have such incompatible perspectives is primarily due to the source of our information regarding said situation. This is why I had initially pointed out the problem of misinformation and disinformation, depending on a persons source (narrative) they come to very predictable conclusions, which more often than not puts them at odds with their neighbors who drink from a different trough. That’s not to say that we can’t have the same source and come to different conclusions tho usually they are somewhat compatible whereas in this case the facts don’t line up.
Nothing new under the sun,..

Personally I believe it’s way bigger and more important than our personal liberties... this is a battle between light and darkness, a spiritual battle and as I’ve said before, we would do well to put on the full armor and steady ourselves in the Lord 🙏🏻

In any case I do appreciate your amicable disposition and since you balk at the woman who wants her haircut... I’m a barber in Alabama with a GED- with a wife and 6 children to feed and shelter and have had no legal means of making an income of any sorts, not for any of the "stimulus” roll outs really help me keep my business or home, so if you would please remember us in your prayers 😇🙏🏻

O
Oracio

Fletcher and Staff, I appreciate the feedback!

Fletcher, I am sorry to hear about your employment situation, I will be praying for the Lord's provision for you and your family brother.

I understand that Sweden has not locked down the country as all others have, and there seems to be good reason to believe that they have not been worse off for their decision in terms of the COVID-19 death toll. I thought this article made a good case for that:

https://reason.com/2020/04/17/in-sweden-will-voluntary-self-isolation-work-better-than-state-enforced-lockdowns-in-the-long-run/

From what I understand, when the 1918 Spanish Flu hit in the US, they implemented a similar social distancing shutdown strategy as we're seeing today. However, there were two waves of the virus. The second wave caused many more deaths than the first, and it is argued that the reason for that was due to not having a herd immunity to it due to the strictness of the lock-down during the first wave. It is argued that it would have been better to let the virus run its course more freely to create herd immunity.

I think another thing to consider is that many within the medical and scientific communities have decried the strict shutdowns as being unnecessary and even cruel. Many doctors and scientists have been trying to reason about the importance of strengthening our immune systems with healthy diets and vitamin intake. Yet, when do we hear about that from the mainstream media? Instead, all we keep hearing is that we need to be afraid of one another and keep good hygiene.

Anyway, just my two cents I guess.

S
staff

Hi JFW,
This a haircut nobody wanted lol and I pray for that the Lord will roll out a personal stimulas for you and your family .I cut my own hair the other day as it became annoyingly long and it came out 50 percent good lol.
On a serious note I have no doubt if that if the outcome of the 2016 election were different this would have been a terrible time for the great US constitution and peoples rights at a national level.
They used to say that when America sneezes ,the world gets a cold but we might have to change that to When China sneezes the world gets a flu !
Its Ironic in that the EU were ready to spend trillions on fighting a makey uppey crisis in the form of global warming and when a real crisis comes along they are paralyzed to do anything!Also if you notice we are not hearing anything from the Green agenda or from Atheists during this pandemic. One is trying to pretend they doesnt exist and other has nothing to offer because they believe God doesnt exist!
I do think that this crisis will bring about a humbling and it is ultimately as you said a spiritual battle going on at the moment and God will want to hear his people sing together again soon,God bless

O
Oracio

Another thought came to mind. Wouldn't it be just like the devil to try to cause Christians to be afraid of gathering together as we are instructed to do in God's Word? I'm sure the devil knows full well about the power of believers gathering together as a body and of fulfilling the many one-another admonitions in Scripture.

S
staff

Hi Oracio,
Praying and agreeing for Fletcher too.Sweden is a difficult case because they were really in lockdown since November because of the dark winter months being so northernly and I think that played into their minds ,Could the population after being in all winter take another 3 months of being inside.?
The Spanish flu the second time around was meant have been awful because it attacked young healthy people but not children.The Spanish flu advanced walking distance everyday until almost everyone got it.
One of the statistics that I think is over looked is that altough the death rate maybe 4 percent of those that get it another 14 percent get a really bad sickness and have a really hard time .Thats almost 20 percent or 1 in 5 of people who get it either die or feel very bad due to the illness.
The Lord will make good out of this situation ,praise his name staff

D
deogloria

Thanks Oracio for posting this.
I don't always agree with Steve Gregg's theology.
But I think here he make some good points and the way he reasons from Scripture makes a lot of sense. Only Jesus has the ultimate authority, all others are somehow limited. Where are those limits, that's the main question.
We might get a bit of a wake up call at some stage in the future.
Quote: "I'm sure the devil knows full well about the
power of believers gathering together as a body..."

...and the lack of power if we just "meet" behind screens...

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wildhorse86

I find some of this thread interesting. This is an unusual circumstance and I wouldn't claim it as over reaching. I find it painful, I find it depressing at times but see a level of wisdom in in it.

We're talking about a virus that spreads and has the ability to kill that we have no natural defence against. The common flu is easier to weather but the problem is how fast covid spreads and if not contained how overwhelming damaging it will be (more so).

So, what would God have us do? I think to follow what leaders are telling us and that is to keep distanced. I don't think in this case this is persecution. This is common sense to save lives and protect the people God loves.

The pandemic makes it hard for those without internet to see each other, and I acknowledge that but I only have to see the news with USA, China and parts of Europe to recognise the wisdom to staying home until this is over.

People are scared and now is a time to share the gospel and God's light to those we see.

If restrictions were kept in place after this all died down then I would say civil protest and claiming the rights being squashed is a fair argument but at the moment people are dying all over the world by the minute because we don't have the resources.

I do wonder though how many restrictions the government will want to adapt to have a level of control once it's all over though... I have no doubt Satan is having a field day causing chaos and fear, but not all of the fear is unfounded.

God hears our prayers whether they're said side by side or over the phone or Internet.

O
Oracio

I thought the below FB post was interesting. There is quite a bit of different info out there, and it's not too easy to sort through it and decide what information is the most accurate. Sometimes all we can do is compare and weigh it and take our best guess with our God-given discernment.

Translated from Spanish to English, Facebook post by Joshua Enio Jimenez, FB page Cristiano Conservador:

"What has happened; why are so many people dying?

I answer:

I've already explained it a thousand times. But hey, I guess explaining it once again doesn't "kill" me.

1. Panic induced people to go to supermarkets in hordes, this was the place of greatest spread.

2. We are in the seasonal flu season, with or without COVID-19, quite a few people are going to die from respiratory diseases. However, when the media panicked the masses, many who developed the classic flu symptoms (cough, fever, weakening of the body, etc.), were scared and crowded medical centers: this, same as (1) above, led to even more spread, especially in classes vulnerable to the new virus, namely, the elderly.

3. The panicked masses put pressure on politicians to have to do something drastic. And the measures that were approved did not help at all. They closed schools, most businesses, and confined everyone to their homes, children, adults, and the elderly confined to small spaces. What happened? Well, the least-risk groups (healthy children and adults) infected the elderly. What's worse? They are not outside in the sun, which is necessary to produce vitamin D, a molecule much needed for a good immune system. In addition, they are not exercising, glued to their TVs watching the numbers of deaths every day, producing stress and fear, and due to the shortage that the massive shutdowns produced, most were eating poorly, processed foods. Well, all this together caused what? Simple: a drastic weakening of the immune system, especially in people vulnerable to COVID.

4. The governments, in addition to decreeing an almost complete closure of the economy, also channeled the vast majority of resources, both input goods and medical services, towards the treatment of COVID-19. In fact, here in the United States (and I imagine the same thing happened all over the world), the government declared many medical services "non-essential" and created economic incentives for hospitals for each COVID-19 diagnosis. What did this lead to? Well, inescapably the dismissal of many "non-essential" health workers, the shortage of medical products, and insufficient treatment (in some cases, complete cessation) of other serious illnesses in the population. And in addition to this, WHO’s guide, along with financial incentives, motivated hospitals to over-diagnose the number of deaths from COVID-19. Now basically anyone who dies WITH COVID-19 is counted as dying BY COVID-19, which just isn't the same.

Anyway: people are dying for COVID-19, I have never denied that and I have never downplayed that unfortunate reality. But what many people are not seeing, due to the constant media propaganda of fear and the politicization of the crisis, many more people are dying from other diseases that are not being adequately treated at the right time, and a good number of them are registered as COVID deaths.

What's worse? The only thing that will stop this pandemic is immunization: either by means of an effective and safe vaccine or by means of herd immunity. The vaccine will not come until 18 months, and those are optimistic estimates. Some in fact say never, being that the two previous coronavirus strains, SARS in 2002 and MERS in 2012, still have no vaccines (which in fact, people don't even know, that COVID-19 is not the first coronavirus, and in fact, the least lethal of all). So, our only logical way out of this pandemic is herd immunity. However, draconian measures, which in fact completely violate our fundamental rights, largely stop this much-needed immunity from developing.

So, there you have it, the information that the fear-mongering media will not tell you, but that is the reality of what has been happening.

Oh, and lastly, as more and better serological tests are done around the world (antibody tests, not RNA, giving us a much better estimate of the extent of infection), we increasingly find that the COVID-19 case fatality rate is closer to the same rate as seasonal flu; and, in fact, children are more likely to die from influenza (flu) than from COVID-19."

O
Oracio

A recent case study was conducted by medical professors at Stanford University, in which they tested 3300 residents of Santa Clara County California. They say the results showed evidence that the fatality rate for COVID-19 is actually much lower than we've been told by the WHO and the majority of the mainstream media. They say it seems to be closer to the same fatality rate as the seasonal flu. These are some links regarding that recent case study:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1?fbclid=IwAR2eSfbxPZKFwhJTCtMXTlW__40L80l4BhLOgZqDiUg1QgwuikMTX1CTglE

https://off-guardian.org/2020/04/19/watch-covid19-fatality-rate-in-the-ballpark-of-seasonal-influenza/

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6150670357001#sp=show-clips

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wildhorse86

Sadly, while I think restrictions are necessary in order to help medical systems around the world cope, and I agree that the media is reveling in the creation of fear mongering, I think we're going to see many more deaths as a result of other illnesses not being treated, poverty and suicide.

I'm in Australia where it isn't bad, but I only have to look at what I'm seeing around the world, in the news, on Facebook and in one case a friend who had a relative die of it to see the dire straits we're in.

I'm hoping people realise their own mortality and seek Christ as a result of this. I honestly believe that God is allowing this to happen very much for that reason.

J
jochbaptist

I hesitantly post this link, but feel that it might contain some vital information for the coming months.

https://www.facebook.com/110765133937555/videos/528912011318864/?t=8

O
Oracio

deogloria wrote:

Quote: "I'm sure the devil knows full well about the
power of believers gathering together as a body..."

...and the lack of power if we just "meet" behind screens...


Amen. Reminded me of this below FB post I recently came across:

"The Church is not "virtual", it is interpersonal (Acts 2:42); the Church is called not to transmit preaching online, it is called to baptize new converts in water (Matthew 28:19); The Church has been ordered to keep the Lord’s Supper in the fellowship of the brethren announcing the coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:24-26), not to suspend this mandate by order of evil men who do not fear Christ; the Church is called to congregate even more faithfully as that Day approaches (Hebrews 10:23-25), not to shut themselves up in their homes due to an unfounded fear by the unbelieving world.
It sounds "politically incorrect" and to many even "irresponsible" and "evil" in these dangerous times; but I tell you the truth and I am not lying, it is the law of our Lord Jesus Christ.
CHRIST is LORD, not Caesar!”
Translated from Spanish to English, post by Joshua Enior Jimenez

J
JFW

A hearty AMEN to ☝🏼👇🏼 what you shared from FB !

/ The Church is not "virtual", it is interpersonal (Acts 2:42); the Church is called not to transmit preaching online, it is called to baptize new converts in water (Matthew 28:19); The Church has been ordered to keep the Lord’s Supper in the fellowship of the brethren announcing the coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:24-26), not to suspend this mandate by order of evil men who do not fear Christ; the Church is called to congregate even more faithfully as that Day approaches (Hebrews 10:23-25), not to shut themselves up in their homes due to an unfounded fear by the unbelieving world.
It sounds "politically incorrect" and to many even "irresponsible" and "evil" in these dangerous times; but I tell you the truth and I am not lying, it is the law of our Lord Jesus Christ.
CHRIST is LORD, not Caesar!”
Translated from Spanish to English, post by Joshua Enior Jimenez /

And may the Lords blessings be upon this brother for his courageous stand in faith 🙏🏻😇

O
Oracio

Translated from Spanish to English, FB post by Joshua Enior Jimenez:

"Here's some "explosive news" (at least according to some media headlines) that the White House shared yesterday regarding the new coronavirus. Are you ready for this?

Being outdoors in the sun substantially decreases the half-life of the new virus, basically killing it.

A technical note on half-life: half-life (symbol t1⁄2) is the time required for a quantity of particles to be reduced to half of their initial value. So for example, if there are 1,000 SARS-CoV-2 molecules on the surface of a wall, and their half-life is 10 hours, then only 500 virus particles will be left alive after 10 hours, in the next 10 hours 250 particles will remain, and so on.

Well, according to the latest study, this new strain of coronavirus has a half-life of about 1.5 minutes in direct sunlight, outdoors. What happens in interior and confined places? The half-life is approximately 18 hours. That's right, 18 hours indoors vs. 1.5 minutes outdoors in the sun ... think about that for a minute please.

William Bryan, the chief scientist at the United States Department of Homeland Security, puts it this way, and I quote: "In summary, within the conditions we have tested to date, the virus in saliva droplets survives best indoors and in dry conditions and does not survive as well in saliva droplets ... The virus dies faster in the presence of direct sunlight. "

Question friends, for those who have followed me for a while now, who has told you so far to go outside to bathe in the sun, in order to strengthen the immune system, create vitamin D and not live confined under fear in small space places and without exercise? Yes, "irresponsible me". And well, who has confined you all, in small interior spaces without sunlight, and even fines you or takes you prisoners if you go out to the park to run outdoors in the sun? Yes, the state.

I don't know how much more evidence you need to understand what I'm telling you: EVERYONE SHOULD NOT BE CONFINED in their homes, that only compounds the problem, and as we can see now, this is where the virus best survives. The group that is really at high risk should be protected (our elders, whom we have failed so far), while the rest continue to work and create herd immunity. We already have enough examples, from Japan to Sweden, to Wyoming and Oklahoma.

I hope that soon more and more open their eyes to the truth.”

source: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10222675132684248&set=a.10216327606080050&type=3&theater

D
docs

They might just be finding this out about the coronavirus. Many people are working hard to crack it so to speak and new info comes out continually. But get some sunlight I would say.

O
Oracio

They might just be finding this out about the coronavirus. Many people are working hard to crack it so to speak and new info comes out continually. But get some sunlight I would say.

Brother, this has been known for at least a century in the US, as they implemented an open-air sunlight treatment during the Spanish Flu:
https://medium.com/@ra.hobday/coronavirus-and-the-sun-a-lesson-from-the-1918-influenza-pandemic-509151dc8065

From the article:
"Put simply, medics found that severely ill flu patients nursed outdoors recovered better than those treated indoors. A combination of fresh air and sunlight seems to have prevented deaths among patients; and infections among medical staff.[1] There is scientific support for this. Research shows that outdoor air is a natural disinfectant. Fresh air can kill the flu virus and other harmful germs. Equally, sunlight is germicidal and there is now evidence it can kill the flu virus."

I find it very odd that we are not hearing from the mainstream media or the big health organizations about the need for sunlight and fresh air to combat this coronavirus and to boost the immune system and create herd immunity.

These two California-based medical doctors (who administered more than 5,000 coronavirus tests) were recently interviewed by news media and sought to expose this COVID-19 fraud (not a total hoax, but a fraud nonetheless in terms of overreach and unreasonable draconian measures used), a must watch!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaTYYk3HxOc

Facebook version for those with a Facebook account:
https://www.facebook.com/KGET17News/videos/537566680274166/?v=537566680274166

This is another respectable physician weighing in:
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/494034-the-data-are-in-stop-the-panic-and-end-the-total-isolation?fbclid=IwAR2tdAeEEffeYkTw0UdoaWzT1qP-CHVmfX6kHFn2ve1_TT2GoinKLFWZj9Q

This is a recent "explosive" speech by US Senator and physician Rand Paul after recovering from the virus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKxrPZm8ZkE&fbclid=IwAR3S5hGw4B4NouUiR43XwdHb7p87wLJw3O8h9NBMqDFsdBmC1bLkpfdcfuY \\

J
JFW

Yes again this is very much in line with my understanding -
The virus is real but the reaction is not.... and as it was in the garden so to it is today, the enemy seeks and takes opportunity to launch a campaign of lies attempting to deceive all who feed (believe/respond in accordance with) on his word.
As Paul says, "you are a slave to whom you obey”

Historically the enemy will use the pleasure principle to entrap the unsuspecting and while the pursuit of pleasure and the subsequent release of serotonin and dopamine are powerful controllers they are not to be compared to the most powerful control of (unsaved) people....
self-preservation is the king of fear as it not only actualizes a whole different set of chemical and emotional protocols, it also does something far more damaging in that self-preservation (the base control of all sentient life) ultimately serves to demoralize a people who have been artificially brought under its spell. Indeed many are currently under its spell and this is where our faith, the words of our savior become even more valuable than gold -
Self-preservation is (in certain instances) completely at odds with our faith in that "he who seeks to save his life will lose it but he who loses it for my namesake shall find it”.
As stated early on in this situation, we more than anyone on the planet should be unmoved by this and let our lights shine :))) but mostly we huddle and hide, so the world wonders "why bother with Christ when He can’t do anything for His people,... look they seek the power of science and medicine just like us” :(((
This should not be so brethren for we are called to a higher life, a life of faith where our hope is firmly founded in Christ Jesus alone !

If anything this "global situation” has been used to expose the "church” is really powerless to offer the world anything that they can’t find at the doctors office, university or government... and that (I believe) is the real fatality or was it dead (from unbelief) already and this opportunity to shine just turned attention to the fact it’s mostly just an artifice at this point?
Having the form of godliness but denying the power thereof -

D
docs

/If anything this "global situation” has been used to expose the "church” is really powerless to offer the world anything that they can’t find at the doctors office, university or government... and that (I believe) is the real fatality or was it dead (from unbelief) already and this opportunity to shine just turned attention to the fact it’s mostly just an artifice at this point?
Having the form of godliness but denying the power thereof/

Perhaps this global situation has also revealed that an officially atheistic communist government can loose havoc on the world Christians and non-Christians alike by letting a virus get past them and loose and then brazenly pass the buck and lie about their responsibility.

As of now, 54,253 people have died of this virus in the United States along with almost one million confirmed cases in this country. It may not be as dangerous as they first predicted but those stats show it is nonetheless very dangerous. In a abnormally bad flu season approximately 20 to 30,000 people die. This virus has done that much and much more in four months or so. More than one church that has continued to meet in spite of the precautions have lost members of their congregation and even pastors have died because of their insistence on continuing to meet together. It's not like this shut down is going to last from here on and it's not like we have lost all sense of spiritually and communion with Christ because of it. This has been a minor convenience compared to what is likely to come. If we have run with the footmen and they have wearied us then what will we do when the horsemen arrive? I don't blame society for being careful and hunkering down for a while until they get a better handle on this sickness is obtained. Jesus said sometimes the children of this age are wiser than the sons of light. The growing protests over the strictness of the lock down in certain areas show society is not just sitting back and being led by the nose. They are restless and want freedom and are beginning to come out. Good. Yet still, every day or day and a half, the death toll from the virus goes up by 8 or 900 people. There's still much room for caution.

Every Christians I know have not lost a iota of faith during all this, just the reverse. The call of faith always contains the call to be wise. I'm not going to go out and handle snakes just because Christ made a reference to them not harming believers. Meanwhile, the brick and mortar buildings may be closed but the true church is not.

The real culprit here is not the church but the communist and atheistic leaders of China. Why lose sight of that and take the church to task?

I'm not trying to be a know it all or involve myself in matters too great for me but just look at things from all angles.

J
JFW

We see the situation completely different... and as such most likely will not come to the same conclusions-

While there is no doubt some of the officials in China bear a significant amount of responsibility, as does the WHO, NIH, etc... but they (last time I checked) don’t claim supernatural endowments as does the "church”... ?

As Paul says, "those outside my house I judge not, those inside are judged”
I could give a hoot what the world does, the world systems are controlled by the "god of this world” so it’s no surprise at all that they would release a contagion wether deliberately or not, it’s a result of their arrogance and desire themselves to have power like unto God.

I understand and respect that you see that the "church” has responded correctly- I could not disagree more ... if I need to explain why then it would be a moot point as the scriptures are clear on this.

Just ask yourself,... What would Jesus do?
Would He be self-quarantined hiding away wearing masks and gloves and encouraging others to do so as well ?

D
docs

When I read your post the main thing I felt was a sense of condemnation which is not the same as conviction. Condemnation is exactly what the church does not need now. When Germany was bombing London should the people of London went out into the streets during the bombing because "nothing shall by any means harm you?" I just felt in your strong faith you voiced a little too much condemnation toward others who don't believe the same way. Condemnation does not come from the voice of the Holy Spirit. Being supernaturally endowed does not mean throw away wisdom. This is unchartered territory for most of the church worldwide. What we have done this time we may not do next time. We should be using this time in our prayer closets to cry out to the Lord for relief instead of feeling condemnation. 33 people have died from coronavirus since I made my first post today.

That's all. 'Nuf from here.

Blessings.

O
Oracio

Thanks again brothers for the feedback!

David, I'd point out the fact that we're hearing about many physicians being pressured to put down covid-19 as the cause of death when in fact it may not be the case, thus inflating the numbers. And it's crystal clear that most hospitals throughout the nation have been emptied out and doctors and nurses have been furloughed; some hospitals are in danger of closing down for good now due to a lack of volume in patients. There have been many normal citizens going to hospitals in their cities to see for themselves if they are packed with covid patients, and they have filmed the hospitals being essentially ghost towns. I understand that that may not be the case in certain areas like certain parts of New York. But in most states and cities across the nation, hospitals are empty and people can't even get treated for other serious illnesses needing attention even though there are no covid patients there. How does that make any sense?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the numbers are not high or that I disbelieve everything put out by the msm and major health organizations. I'm just saying they have clearly been wrong before, particularly in their initial projected models, as well as in other areas; some msm outlets have even been exposed/caught lying in some of their reporting regarding this virus (I can show clear recent examples from CBS and CNN to name a few); so there is good reason for us not to just blindly believe everything they throw at us without using our God-given discernment and critical thinking.

Regarding the church's response in all this, I do side with the sentiment that the church as a whole has failed in several ways during this crisis, myself included.

I believe that churches with buildings should have started meeting in homes or other places and should not have forsaken the assembling of themselves together on account of this prevalent fear mongering by the lying and exaggerating mainstream media. Live streaming doesn't cut it imho because it does not allow fulfilling certain biblical commands and admonitions requiring in person contact.

This is an open letter from a Canadian pastor written to the church at large, wherein he confesses his own initial failure, shares about his resolve to be more faithful and bold, and challenges us all to do likewise going forward:
https://canadarevival.blogspot.com/2020/04/our-compromise-in-face-of-covid-19-open.html?m=1&fbclid=IwAR1uJiuKddMnXkvgJsaPDMA025LzkNBVp6kMXcfntP7tUUVlm-n2BsMHmaM

Edit added: This is a clear example of the Health Department pressuring doctors to put down covid-19 on death certificates without valid reason, so you can clearly see I'm not making this stuff up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B20klwaqTw&fbclid=IwAR2e05OD50_7hD_kouVXg_n7TogVU5ei7T06zJS_DzkzDfXcMrsVpNrD548

And this is an example of death counts being retracted:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/pa-removes-200-deaths-official-coronavirus-count-questions-mount-reporting-process-data-accuracy

D
docs

Even if the numbers are lower than reported or even misreported (still open to question), this virus has taken many lives and continues to be dangerous. I am not going to come under condemnation and say I and the church have failed. Nothing like this has come along before and we are learning by experience as we go. One pastor berating the seriousness of the virus on the internet recently died from it. Another pastor lost his right hand man in his church after he insisted on continuing to meet together and this person in his church contacted the virus and passed away. This lock down has not been overly long, some states have reopened and others are about to do so within a week or so. This experience has shown me that the church can continue without being centered on a main building. The buildings are locked yet the true church is not. In the not too distant future things will likely take on a semblance of normalcy again. Above all things, I refuse to feel condemened at this point. Insistence on "my" rights to continue meeting together can affect others so it's not only me I have to consider. If this is as many say just a dress rehearsal for the not so distant future then what will we do then when more pressure is put on the church to stop functioning? It's coming.

J
JFW

Again we see it from totally different perspectives and as such will most likely disagree...
Having said that, I appreciate and respect your opinion I just categorically reject it as having a scriptural basis - nothing personal with you as my beloved brother in Christ:)
To liken this virus unto bombs is exactly the point I was making earlier, which is to say - the virus is real (poses a health threat) but the response/reaction is clearly manufactured and if you can’t see/understand that then I would ask that you seek the Lord and pray that the truth might be revealed to you regarding this matter 🙏🏻

Also was Jesus too harsh (condemning) when He called out the "church” for their hypocrisy?
He wasn’t using sweet language when He called them a pit of vipers and a den of thieves... does that sound convicting or condemning to you?
But again, the very fact that this needs be pointed out is itself the problem which I was addressing.

Consider the source of your information dear brother, if we are filled with the "news” of this world where shall the "good news” find a place in us?
That’s not to say it’s wrong to be aware of the situation we are in but not to feast on it... we who call on the name of the Lord are to feast on Christ 🙏🏻

Incidentally, per the "facts” the virus itself doesn’t actually hurt a person so much as it hacks our autoimmune system and tricks it onto hyper reacting to the presence of the virus by misinformation (lies) and ultimately the body’s natural defenses are what primarily contribute to morbidity-
It seems a comparable thing is happening in society... our hyper reaction to the presence of this health threat is worse than the virus itself ...

O
Oracio

Fletcher (JFW) wrote:

Just ask yourself,... What would Jesus do?
Would He be self-quarantined hiding away wearing masks and gloves and encouraging others to do so as well ?

Amen brother. I can't see our Lord or the Apostles and first century disciples reacting this way either on account of this kind of threat. Too many scriptural principles and examples would seem to contradict that kind of reaction imo.

I know they had a law whereby they quarantined lepers under the Old Covenant, but they quarantined the sick, not the healthy along with the sick (which doesn't make sense).

D
docs

/Also was Jesus too harsh (condemning) when He called out the "church” for their hypocrisy?
He wasn’t using sweet language when He called them a pit of vipers and a den of thieves... does that sound convicting or condemning to you?/

Jesus WAS NOT addressing the church when He made these statements. He was addressing the rigidly legalistic and spiritually dead Pharisees who kept people in bondage to the strict letter of the law while not keeping it themselves. This was not the born again church He was addressing. This is what I am referring to. This is not conviction born of the Holy Spirit, it is blanket condemnation. The church is not a broad of vipers and den of thieves for taking precautions during this present pandemic. Each man's conscience and their decision of what to do has to be respected or otherwise our liberty can become a means of judging others. Blessings and peace to you. I've said all I am going to say in this thread.

O
Oracio

David (docs) wrote:

Jesus WAS NOT addressing the church when He made these statements. He was addressing the rigidly legalistic and spiritually dead Pharisees who kept people in bondage to the strict letter of the law while not keeping it themselves. This was not the born again church He was addressing. The church is not a broad of vipers and den of thieves for taking precautions during this present pandemic. This is what I am referring to. This is not conviction born of the Holy Spirit, it is blanket condemnation. I don't believe it should be received. But blessings and peace to you. I've said all I am going to say in this thread.

What about the church in Laodicea, or even the other churches in Revelation that Christ sternly warned and rebuked for their compromise? Laodicea didn't get any commendation while the others did.

Also what about James calling his readers adulterers and sinners, warning them that friendship with the world is enmity with God, and exhorting them to cleanse their filthy hands and to purify their filthy hearts(James 4:4-10)? James' letter was clearly written to the church. Just saying brother.

D
docs

Just saying, the current church has not lapsed into Laodicean like unfaithfulness etc. because they exercised wise caution during this present set of circumstances dealing with a never seen before global encompassing and deadly virus. Apples and oranges.

Berating and condemnation is the last thing the church needs right now.

"Nuf. Let's be about prayer good bro.

O
Oracio

Fair enough brother David. I agree that prayer is essential right now.

J
JFW

I understand your point regarding "who” Jesus was chastising and agree with you on that point- which is why I politely put it (church) in quotation marks so as to differentiate between the current corporate institutions and the body of Christ, perhaps I should’ve/could’ve been more clear in parsing out the difference- tho nonetheless we were NOT given a spirit of fear by the Lord and it sincerely pains me deeply, grieves me in my spirit, to witness the reaction to this crisis by those whom claim the name of Christ as it (to me) seems quiet in step with the unbelieving world and that is ultimately a spot on the testimony of the "whole church”, no?

We are called not to react to situations with fear or frustration but rather to respond to the Lord in faith :)))
Again as I’ve stated before, this is a wonderful opportunity for our lights to shine and actually draw people unto the Lord by lifting up the Son!
Putting on the full armor of God so that we can stand !
For our weapons are not carnal but spiritual and mighty for the pulling down of strongholds (web of lies) or ANY KNOWLEDGE THAT EXALTS ITSELF AGAINST THE KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST including the "bad report” from a godless and unbelieving world media and atheist medical experts.
Having said this,... if others are weak in their faith and are overcome by fear then let us pray, interceding on their behalf seeking mercy that per adventure the Lord should grant them repentance. But we are those who are saved, overcomers, those whom possess within themselves the very remedy for not only this but every trouble one might encounter:🙏🏻
Let us walk worthy of the gospel wherewith we were called :)
And please know dear brother there was no intent to offend you in anything I have written but more a call to armor up and take a stand for the faith knowing that the devil is like a lion seeking for whom he may devour next -

D
docs

Yes Oracio. I haven't done enough praying even while having time to do it now.

D
docs

You haven't offended me. I just don't think being wise and taking precautions during this time is entirely borne out of frustration and fear on the part of the saints. Faith and wisdom are good companions. As you say, we all need to be praying right now. For me, it involves laying aside time and convenience I am not used to laying aside. I consider myself as still learning to pray and subduing my flesh that tells me to be up and about other things. My spirit is willing but my flesh is still weak. But pray we must. Empower and teach us O Lord.

J
JFW

Yeah... we just see it differently-
And it just really seemed, by your words and quick responses, that you got offended and even a lil heated but perhaps I’m misreading your words and intentions 🤷🏽”â™‚️

O
Oracio

This may be the last link I share here in this thread as I've shared quite a few now to share where some of us are coming from in all this. Thank you brother Greg if you read this, for allowing us to share our view here. A brother sent me this video via a text message, of this pastor preaching atop a truck in Louisiana during a protest rally, and I thought I just had to share it here. I downloaded it from Facebook and uploaded it onto YouTube to share with those who do not have Facebook. Hope it encourages some:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaxK8ftShp8&t=632s

J
JFW

Ha! Amen to that message!!
Thanks for sharing and yes thank you Greg for your forbearance 🙏🏻

O
Oracio

Just got back from picking up my mom from a nearby hospital here in Whittier CA. She's 75 years old. She went there wanting to get tested for covid-19 because she's been having a pretty bad dry cough lately.

When she called me from the hospital she was freaked out because they told her she has the coronavirus. You gotta understand my mom only speaks Spanish and doesn't understand things that well sometimes. She was so worried about infecting us that she was considering not coming home for a while and trying to find some other place to stay like another hospital. I told her not to worry because if she has it, we all likely have it or have had it (I know I had flu-like symptoms not that long ago and some people are asymptomatic), and it hasn’t affected us in any serious way.

She was still very worried as I tried reasoning with her, and eventually the nurse asked to talk to me. The nurse told me they had recommended for her to quarantine herself for a few weeks and to keep at a distance from us in case we haven’t gotten it yet.

I asked the nurse if they tested her for covid-19, she said no, and that they based it on my mom’s described symptoms (i.e. what my mom told them). I asked the nurse again just to make sure, "So you guys didn’t do the swab in the nose test or anything like that then right?” She said no, but that my mom likely had covid-19 based on described symptoms. I thanked the nurse and she handed the phone back to my mom, and I told my mom that they hadn’t even tested her for the virus and that she need not worry.

My mom also told me that they told her that many in our apartment complex have contracted it as well.

This further confirmed what I've been hearing. I've heard of other hospitals also giving covid-19 diagnoses based on mere flu-like symptoms without testing.

I believe there are incentives for reporting the virus haphazardly.

I am more convinced now that both the case numbers and death toll have been largely inflated and that in many cases there is no basis in reality or valid reasoning.

Bottom line, regardless of whether or not my mom and the rest of us here have this virus (we may or may not have it or may have already had it), it's not right for them to diagnose her with covid-19 based on mere assumptions without due testing. It's like telling someone they have stomach cancer based on symptoms of stomach pain without testing for cancer.

J
JFW

Wow!
Firstly I’m sorry your mom was put through that, as it sounds inhumane not to mention lacking any medical soundness or scientific basis and ultimately didn’t do anything good for her. I will def lift her (and your family) in prayer dear brother 🙏🏻
Would you be willing to share her name ? if not I understand-

As you already know- boosting her immune system with sunshine, fresh air, minerals and vitamins is always a good and promising practice:)
Also apparently foods that have an anti inflammatory effect (Cinnamon etc) are useful as well as foods that detox the liver (red onion etc ) also help our body’s inherent systems mitigate the effects .

How long has she had symptoms and what are the specifically?
(Again if you don’t mind sharing )

O
Oracio

Thanks Fletcher! Her name is Gloria. She has been battling a host of complications for many years, things like diabetes, high blood pressure, arthritis. She's had many bouts of dry coughs on and off over the years. Right now it's mainly at night that she gets it. It doesn't seem life-threatening right now. Last night she was fine, with very minimal coughing, slept very well thankfully. The paperwork stated it's a viral infection. They took X-rays and blood, no pneumonia thankfully. They prescribed cough suppressant medicine.

Basically based on her descriptions it sounds like a viral infection of some sort, could be a common seasonal flu, could be covid-19, God only knows. But it seems very manageable so far thankfully.

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