Biblical models today ?

Something occurred to me after hours of prayer this morning... [upon reflecting on the topics being discussed, the varied perspectives and approaches to the common challenges of our time] , in most cases does not the Biblical narrative reveal the Lord using secular governments and religious orders to bring about His plans?

So why then in our modern age do we attempt to separate Him from our governing bodies ? [be they civil or religious]

For example, there were always corrupt government officials who sought to exploit their power for base ends - like when Pharaoh ordered the male Hebrew children slaughtered... No where do the scriptures say (that I have seen) that God "did” that or was controlling Pharaoh making him decree this unholy thing,... but my Bible does say that God used it for the good !
It emphatically states that He was very much aware of this diabolical plot and the Lord (having a plan of His own) made a provision to act within the governmental structure that existed at the time by raising up and training Moses to operate within that system but with a power from without that system. So too it was with Joseph, Daniel, etc... even Jesus .

So why do we not think that the Lord is not,... has not done the same thing here in our age just as He has always done?
Would there not be evidence?
What would keep us from "seeing” or perceiving this evidence of His hand at work ?
Why are we so insistent that the Lord "doesn’t have a special covenant” with people, cities, states, nations, organizations, etc... when the scriptures clearly testify to the contrary?

Not sure what you mean Fletcher. Are you suggesting that God might have a capital C "Covenant" with the US (or other nations) that we don’t explicitly know about? That the prosperity of the US over the last two hundred years is evidence of this hidden Covenant?

I wouldn't see it so much as a "covenant" (as with the nation of Israel) but more like a sort of "relationship" between God and nations, regions, states or cities wherein they are accountable before God and suffer consequences or prosper in accordance with their conduct.

I think of the fact that Nineveh had this type of a "relationship" with God if you will, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah, and those cities that our Lord denounced in the gospels; although it does seem from those examples that it's more like God's judgment was either brought down upon populations or withheld accordingly as opposed to blessings being given or withheld. In other words, it doesn't seem like there's much of a promise of, or examples of prosperity given to people groups (besides Israel) who by and large do good (other than promises to be spared from judgment). Yet certain biblical principles (especially as we learn from Proverbs) would seem to back up the idea that people groups that do good are blessed and prospered by God, but it may be more like general principles that apply also to individuals, and not absolute promises.

For example, as a general rule, individuals are promised prosperity if they work hard as opposed to being sluggards. It seems more like common sense and natural if you will.

And there seems to be a general rule of people groups prospering when they are faithful to God and His Word as a whole. But it's not absolute, because sometimes there is much hardship and persecution brought upon God's people regardless of how faithful they are and how hard they work. It may ultimately depend on God's sovereignty, i.e. when He sees fit to either prosper, test, or judge people groups in His infinite wisdom.

So if it ultimately depends on God's sovereignty, can the faithfulness of God's people make a difference? Yes, the people of Nineveh said, "perhaps God will spare us if we repent in sackcloth and ashes," and we see that God did respond in mercy to their repentance. I think that's a good attitude to have, to say the same as Nineveh and do likewise during these dark and difficult times.

Just some musings that came to mind; carry on now-with UK English accent :)

Hey brother glad to hear from you:)) you’ve cone up in my prayers lately and so I hope you and your wife are well 🙏🏻

Well I’m not sure what you mean by "hidden” covenant ?
What I was hoping to suggest is that God honors repentance and obedience,... like when Jonah was required to call Nineveh to repentance-
They did and God honored it as an act of obedience by faith and as such they were blessed- that is a "covenant” of sorts, no?
The point being, is that the Lord works within the framework provided, be it a civil, social, governmental, military, or otherwise- to draw a people unto Himself that they might be saved.
Another example was Sodom, a call to repentance was ignored [repeatedly] and yet those whom were faithful, Lot and his family, were given instructions to provide an escape so in this case it was only a local or personal provisional "covenant”.
In other cases the Lord established a personal relationship with a small group or tribe or family or in the case of Rahab an individual that ultimately served as a "covenant” of sorts - an agreement or opportunity if you will- and I’m suggesting there is no evidence [as far as I can see] to suggest that He has stopped using this as a means to bring about His plans-

Flecher, looks like we were typing similar things, giving the same examples, and posted them at the same time lol.

Just thinking out loud here. What of the original Abrahamic covenant from which all nations of the earth were to blessed? Later, the new covenant Jeremiah spoke of, made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, gives the necessary inward change that must occur before one can truly obey God from the heart. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness, likewise when we exercise faith we become the true sons of Abraham and all families of the earth being blessed is fulfilled in us. I don't think God has a special covenant with the United States. The early settlers came here and planted a cross on the first beach they walked on after departing from their ship. They were carrying the blessings of Abraham to distant shores and a new country when they did this. Any true blessings for America come from the Abrahamic covenant which requires faith in Christ to enter into its blessings. God knows of and may honor other covenants and types of covenants but His interest lies mainly in the provisions of the covenant made with Abraham. America would do well to have leaders raised up like Joseph who appeared in a time of crisis and knew beforehand what needed to be done Men who honor and desire to spread the blessings of Abraham through faith in Christ. While not denying the power of our Constitution, that would be covenant faithfulness. Just thinking out loud.

At this point I do not know what "national repentance” would look like in the US with a population of 328 million.

Is national repentance a certain percentage? Every man woman and child? All Christians?

When I hear folks quote 2 Chron. 7:14 that’s what runs through my mind. If the verse is applicable at all to the US, which seems questionable, it says "my people who are called by my name”. So does that mean every Christian in the US or a reasonable sized chunk of them?

Ha! Yes I’m also seeing that 😇

Well we do in fact have a Biblical model for what [i understand] you are asking...
remember how with Sodom, the Lord had the conversation with Lot over the number of people, and how He kept lowering the requirements till it was a forgone conclusion?

Is that the type of thing you’re asking about ?

Well I don't think we can consider these things with our eyes on the practical out working. We are just called to humble ourselves pray and seek his face.
The power of even one individual really doing this in faith is 'exceedingly abundantly above all we ask or think.'

The revival in South Africa with Andrew Murray took no account of the condition even of the church in the nation or the condition of the country itself. God just proved himself sovereign and honored his promises to his servants when the diligently prayed.

Likewise on Lewis in 1949 a small group of intercessors got hold of Gods promises and the whole island was influenced so wonderfully

(this was a reply to Todd's post)

You wrote :
" The early settlers came here and planted a cross on the first beach they walked on after departing from their ship. They were carrying the blessings of Abraham to distant shores and a new country when they did this.”

YES AMEN!
And when I use the term "covenant” I’m putting it in quotations to utilize the term loosely- the reason I’m not using contract or some other similar term is because of the unilateral workings of a covenant versus a contract which is, by design, open to negotiation. What I’m hoping [but apparently struggling] to point out, and forgive me because this is somewhat fresh and not fully formed yet, is that God seems to have a consistent track record of being open to provisional arrangements within the Abrahamic covenant,... or if I’m understanding you correctly, because of it ?

//Well I don't think we can consider these things with our eyes on the practical out working. We are just called to humble ourselves pray and seek his face.
The power of even one individual really doing this in faith is 'exceedingly abundantly above all we ask or think.' //

I agree with this Ian. Then why do people call for "national repentance?” It ain’t gonna happen and I am not even sure that is what God is looking for.

You are right bro.
I fear that in the developed world at least, David Wilkersons catastrophic prophecies will prove accurate and we will all have to face things we would rather not. Its part of the great falling away that heralds his return.

I believe most of us in some way or other are too involved with the humanistic tendancies that Paris Riedhead accurately diagnosed in 'Seven Shekels and a shirt'.

God Operates for his own glory. and we approach him as though he is 'Trying' to achieve 'Things' in our lives and our nation. He is sovereign and does what he wills among the children of men.

We look at Scripture and interpret Him in our own image and run into battle like Israel, thinking we have inquired of the Lord but really we have consulted our own understanding.

At least this is painfully how it has been with me in far too many instances.

With our eyes on Him not the world, may we, who are saved, fall on our faces and stay there till we see this exceeding abundance above 'All we ask or think'. He longs to gather us for his own great names sake. Don't let his final sentence be to us as it was to Israel
'But ye would not, now is your house left to you desolate'

In obedience to scripture lets pray for our nation as, in His response to our asking, many can be drawn out of 'The city of destruction' and the whole nation can still be blessed. We don't know the parameters of the great falling away, but we do know his tender mercies are over all his works and we do know that there is light at evening time.

I believe all the gracious moves of God testify to this.

/ that God seems to have a consistent track record of being open to provisional arrangements within the Abrahamic covenant,... or if I’m understanding you correctly, because of it?/

Hmmm. Interesting question. I've understood I think that when God entered into covenant with Abraham that this covenant formed the basis of all of His subsequent dealings with mankind. I think He might honor any provisional arrangements within the Abrahamic covenant because of it. But He might say, why make another covenant or add a provision, rather, just be faithful to the Abrahamic covenant and all other things are meant to take care of themselves as you honor it.

I have to admit I'm surmising a bit here because as you, I'm just considering these things in a bit of a new way because of your post.

Thank you bro.

Yes it would be plausible (in my mind) in either way ... but in either case wether a provisional or all inclusive one thing is for sure, it is by faith just like with Abraham- yet and this was/is the original point,... the Lord seems to clearly operate within pre existing power structures, wether governmental or civil or otherwise and what I’m asking is why do we imagine this has ceased (from other posts and threads) and what would keep us from seeing His hand at work ?

Would it not be faith?
Or a lack thereof ....

Thank you again for sharing your insights :)
I’m hoping you can help me to better understand what you are saying-
In one instance you say "God isn’t trying” that He is sovereign and simply does as He pleases- yet in the next paragraph make point that God "longs to draw is unto Himself” -
I’m not saying that there is an inherent contradiction between these two statements or even that I disagree with them,... rather I’m hoping you may be willing to expand on them and help me to better understand your concept of the sovereignty of God ?

Ill try brother Fletcher.

In the sentence 'He longs to draw us to himself' I was refering to Jesus longing to draw Israel to himself as a hen gathers her chicks.

In the statament 'God isn't trying' I was 'trying' rather clumsily to express the fact that our view (my view anyway) of what God 'wants' is often in contradiction with the fact of his soverignty. All things are created for his pleasure (Rev 4)
he works all things after the counsel of his own will. (Eph.1)

Trying implies a degree of failure.

Though for the Glory of God he became a man of sorrows aquainted with grief, there is no fault or deviation from his divine purpose that he is 'trying' to rectify.
The angel seeing the situation on earth cried out holy holy holy the whole earth is filled with his glory.

The Longing is an expression of the compassionate yearning of his heart in his great love to us which the admonition 'But ye would not' of Mat.23 shows we are capeable of refusing to respond to, in spite of his for knowledge and the sovereignty of election.

It is a theme through out the OT pleading with wayward Children, 'inspite of it all yet return to me and I will heal you.'

Saying God isn't trying I was refuting the horrible Andrew Womack type theology which implies God all but lost control of his own creation when Adam bowed to Satan's enticement. And is now trying to regain it.

Though I know this is a false teaching I do find something equating to it creeping into my own prayers and desires. A practical humanism which draws from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil rather than faith in his perfect will and seeking only the glory of the Father as Jesus did.

Sorry I'm aware this is very badly expressed, I'm posting it anyway and will pray the Lord gives me more clarity.

Blessings

Thank you that does indeed help to clarify your position.... it appeared you were holding to a reformed theology, tho since there are various degrees of adherence each with its own nuance it would seem appropriate to allow you to articulate your personal perspectives.

Thank you again for your willingness to correspond:)

most cases does not the Biblical narrative reveal the Lord using secular governments and religious orders to bring about His plans?

So why then in our modern age do we attempt to separate Him from our governing bodies ? [be they civil or religious]

Sorry Brother Fetcher, I have to strongly disagree here. I understand that you have quoted verses like Israel should repent or Nineveh should repent etc. But these are all Old Testament verses. There is not a single verse in New Testament asking a country or city or a region to repent.

There should be a reason for it, right? Please think in this line.

When Jesus writes his letters, he is not addressing to the cities but the Churches in the cities. He is asking 5 out of 7 Churches to repent. So in New Covenant, it is not a city that has to repent but the Church or the Body of believers in that locality should repent.

Any preacher who preaches that America should repent or Africa has to repent, has no clue of God's heart in New Covenant. He is an Old Covenant person who has not entered the life of New Covenant at all. In New Covenant the messages are for the Churches that is believers.

Why is it so? 1 Peter 2:9 says "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light."

It is believers who are taken out of every nation to form a Nation for God. It is not America or any other physical nation in the world but we believers, though we are separated Physically, still we form a Holy Nation for the Lord. This is His plan.

Mixing religion and state is always a big mess, no matter which religion it is. Mixing Christianity and State forms Babylon whom God detests. Check the Church history for example, whenever the State and Church mixed, it was start of dark ages of Christianity in the form of Roman Catholic.

New Covenant is not made with a country. A country cannot live by the principles of Sermon on the Mount which a new covenant disciple of Jesus lives. We have to reduce the standard of New Covenant to please the people which will result in Church backsliding.

In India for example there a great desire among people to rule the country according to Hindu principles and make it a Hindu Nation. USA has now listed India as a Nation with very low religious freedom that persecutes minority. The Church is now persecuted in India because of the Hinduthva Government. Now as a Christian when we oppose the mix of Hinduism with Indian Government, how can we in right conscience encourage the mix of Christianity with American Politics? If we do then what is the difference between American Christians and the heathen people of India? One may argue that Christianity has more tolerance (which is true), the same argument I have heard Hindus also make. In fact Hindus have never attacked other nation and enslaved them like Christians, so they have better argument, honestly!

Thank you for your insights- and you never need to apologize to me for disagreeing ;)
That being said, it seems you might’ve misunderstood the point I am attempting to make and I realize now that using the word "covenant” even in quotes with a lil "c” has been misleading at best, ultimately betraying the point in question- I accept that.

Yes we don’t disagree that in the NC the Lord isn’t establishing a covenant with a "preselected” group per say, but rather making an appeal to them to repent and obey by faith the gospel:)
So we can agree that the Lord dies in fact call unbelievers to repent otherwise what’s the point of preaching the gospel, no?

Yes we don’t disagree that in the NC the Lord isn’t establishing a covenant with a "preselected” group per say, but rather making an appeal to them to repent and obey by faith the gospel:)
So we can agree that the Lord dies in fact call unbelievers to repent otherwise what’s the point of preaching the gospel, no?

Brother, I am still not able to understand clearly your point. But I assume that you are telling that God wants America to repent or any specific geography to repent. I assume your point is God is still interested in how nations are run or in politics etc.

I do not believe it is right. God wants entire mankind or human world to repent and come to Christ, which is true. But God's desire is not to have a specific group of people like Americans or Indians or any race to repent and represent Christ. Instead he has chosen his people out of these boundaries (mostly man made like National boundaries), to be his people and to represent him, this is the Church. I do not see anyone addressing a nation to repent in the NT or a race to repent in NT.

Yes we need to preach the Gospel, but it is to individuals than to a group. Even though the Apostles preached to groups, the call to repent was for individuals. They never asked a group to repent and come to Christ. So it is not appropriate to ask whole of America to repent of its sins.

I do not see the problem with USA in the liberals or in its liberal laws or government principles. Changing them or stricter laws will not help and is not the right approach. The problem is with the Church in America. They do not represent Christ anymore. Most Churches have gone far of from Christ. When Christ is exalted, he will draw men to himself. But Church is not doing this simple task, instead they are talking about political government to control sin. If Church has a pure testimony then the people in the nation will change.

Yes, God is still in control and he holds the heart of all world rulers. But the purpose here is to shape the Church rather than to shape or structure all people. For example God still allows a hard dictator to rule so that he can shape the Church through persecution. He allows a government with religious freedom to rule because he can allow the Church to spread the gospel through the freedom they enjoy. All this for the Bride to Adorn herself.

Ha! You posted a quote from me that was fairly straightforward (minus a misspelled word) which even held an olive branch of sorts in presenting an obvious fact asking for your agreement so we could find common ground to build on :)

However, tho you quote my words, you seem to ignore them and begin what amounts to lesson of sorts based on assumptions (your own words) and a need to disagree-
This can be said with confidence as the "olive branch” was rejected 🤷🏽”â™‚️
Again dear brother, I have no quarrel with you tho we do not see things in a compatible way past the basics of Christ and Him crucified. As stated in a previous thread I am completely ok with this and have no desire to "convert” you to my way of thinking or practical living out of faith :)

Having said that, this thread is a response (of sorts) to several threads where saints say things like you are saying here (and there) which I find borderline at best but most likely an overconfidence in a shortsighted albeit a passionately held belief that was not born in heaven, but is a creative endeavor nonetheless.
There is a clear basis for this being displayed in this thread, from the beginning a question was being asked in good faith,... a question born out of a prayerful occurrence that I desired to bring forth and share with my brethren here,... to have an earnest discussion to be able to work out what has been worked in . It was and is being done in a teachable and peaceable spirit, hoping to foster a community effort with each giving the other the "benefit of the doubt”- which is to say that nothing being put forth was really to be "disagreed” with so much as "developed” building where we had light to and otherwise if no place was found then simply observing the development of others :)

All to often a thread begins here in like fashion only to have someone who sees it differently to jump on the board and begin their diatribe telling everyone else how they are wrong.... rather than just letting us work out our own perspectives together, or perhaps using their different perspective to grow and guide the group. But that is not at all what happens here, rather you "strongly disagreed” and tho I have been careful to point out that we aren’t actually disagreeing as you might think and disclaiming that you had clearly misunderstood my point, even attempting to find common ground in the basics of our faith with you personally so as to form a bond that can be exercised unto godliness but that, by your actions, attitudes and words, is clearly not what you are after but rather you dear brother seem offended, and determined to cause strife where there is none, otherwise why ignore the "olive branch” ?
I’ll be honest with you, I don’t believe you even saw it as that, but rather your desire, need to be right and make others believe so has blinded you to a more gentle and peaceable way -
I say this not to cause or require you to argue in defense of yourself but rather to see that there is, especially when brethren are asking questions putting forth ideas to be developed, to disagree in a way that doesn't prevent progress :)

To be clear,... I am saying that you appear to be making assumptions, projecting those assumptions and then reacting to your own projection as opposed to what is being said .

So why then in our modern age do we attempt to separate Him from our governing bodies ?

Fetcher, the crux of your post is this above question. According to you there are so many references in the Bible of God showing interest in Governing bodies but Christians of present time are not much interested in governing bodies. I believe it is a genuine question, nothing wrong about it.

I am someone who strongly believe that Christians should not show too much interest in politics. Also I believe that God is no longer interested in governing bodies in the perspective that you are presenting. He still controls them but not interested in Governments running by his principles. My simple answer is there is NO NEW TESTAMENT verse to support your claim. No where in New Testament God is showing any interest of controlling governing bodies to run by his ways.

I also gave my reason for why I believe God acting this way in New Covenant.

The purpose of any discussion is to bring different preservatives, it is not to convince anyone. You may not agree with my answer and you have all rights to live by Old Covenant letters (which will eventually kill!). But one has to respect every alternate view especially when it is presented with clear scriptural proof the way I have done. You can choose not to agree with my answer but you cannot deny my answer.

I normally have discussions with Atheists on existence of God. The end result is not conversion of Atheists (though I long for it to happen) but they end up telling that I have a clear reason to believe what I believe. Most Atheists start the discussion with a mindset that Christians have blind faith but at the end of the discussion they acknowledge that my faith is based on sound logical thinking. They will choose NOT to agree with my logical view but they cannot deny that I have a clearly thought about logical view. This is exactly what we need to achieve through our threads as well. We may not change our views but we have to end up with respect

Dear brother let first state that I love you and your heart for all things true and holy are evident and inspiring 😇🙏🏻

Tho, again, there for some reason is a disconnect in what I am attempting to present as an observation and what you are understanding/reading that I am sayin... 🤷🏽”â™‚️ What’s to do other than pray and wait on the Lord?

An example is that you seem to believe that I am suggesting that the Lord is desirous of "control over governments” - tho I never said or even suggested as much but in fact quite the opposite! That being said, I am saying that He has, does and will work within the framework of a government or organization or group or individual to further His plans:)

That’s it, full stop...

apparently because of the predetermined understanding of the term "covenant” it was a poor choice on my part to attempt to express an observation that came from a time of intimate prayer, my personal "quiet time” with the Lord -

And yes as I’ve previously stated in this thread I have found that the pooling of our differing perspectives has a potential to be beneficial to the cause of Christ, which necessarily includes different understandings and even disagreements, provided the disagreements don’t fall below the NC standard of spirit and delve into the works of the flesh -

There are numerous New Testament examples of the Lord working within the structures of governments to bring about His plan for the advancement of the Kingdom- in fact the entire new covenant at its inception stands as an unassailable testimony to this fact with the Roman Empire being hostile (as an official stance) towards our faith and the promotion of such. Yet the Lord worked within that pre-established structure by the work of His spirit in various individuals and groups to magnify Jesus :)
And has throughout history done the same,... it’s something that can be argued really ... anymore than someone could legitimately argue that water isn’t wet ?

So when I say, we don’t disagree on the points you’re raising- that’s simply a fact. While it is also a fact that you are addressing a point that I’m not making much less defending but you seem to believe so ? 🤷🏽”â™‚️

I am everything short of certain that if we could sit and reason together there would be allot less confusion and talking past one another but alas,.. as grateful as I am for an online medium such as SI there are indeed observable limitations to its capacity to facilitate clear and consistent communications -

In any case there are no hard feelings and still have hope to develop this concept because I honestly believe it to be a worthy endeavor 🙏🏻

Blessings upon you dear brother and may the grace and mercy of our Father be yours in abundance 😇

//I am someone who strongly believe that Christians should not show too much interest in politics. //

I can understand why one might say this, but things are a little different in a democracy today compared to the government in Paul’s day, for example- which was emperorship by force. The only option for the Christians in those days was to try to influence governments like yeast in dough via the gospel. Thank goodness they were successful!

Of course we do have that option today as well, but we also have the vote, which requires at least a modicum of interest in politics if we are to vote as God would have us vote. I have little doubt that God expects Christians to vote, even if it means voting for the lesser of two evils which all too often is the only choice we have.

I can understand why one might say this, but things are a little different in a democracy today compared to the government in Paul’s day, for example- which was emperorship by force. The only option for the Christians in those days was to try to influence governments like yeast in dough via the gospel. Thank goodness they were successful!

This is a very good observation. I appreciate the fact that you have agreed with my point that the apostles in New Covenant were not involved with government like how Prophets of Old did.

Now regarding democracy, I do not believe it is even in God's plan. When Israel wanted King, God did not allow them to elect one, instead he appointed a king. If democracy is such a good model, then why not allowing the people to elect one? Further in New Covenant there is no mention of elders getting elected in a Church. So I do not believe Churches should follow democracy.

I have no problem with countries following democracy. It is the best system that men have come up with. But when we say that a bunch of Christians can influence the government in the name of Democracy then we should also accept Muslims influence the democratic government of Pakistan and Hindus influencing the democratic government of India. This has resulted in the persecution of minority religion in those so called democratic countries because the majority people who elected the government want the country to support their own religion.

I personally have not voted and have no view against others who are voting.

America is not (as a form of government) a democracy - democracy is a social experiment... America (As a form of government) is a representative republic - and in that system Muslims citizens can and do have an "equal” voice - take the Somali populace in Minnesota as an example.