How Spurgeon Responded During a Severe Epidemic in His Midst

C.H. Spurgeon did not cower down during a severe Cholera outbreak in his midst. He continued ministering to people in person, from house to house, even as he saw many die in front of him and conducted many funerals. He sought to be faithful to God’s prescribed will and trusted God to protect Him as He saw fit. Here in the US, we’ve not come anywhere near that in terms of severity right in front of us; yet I hate to say it, but I believe a huge number of Christians, and in particular the vast majority of pastors and/or elders and leaders, have given in to unfounded fear; they’ve obeyed unjust and unbiblical government sanctions, while disobeying certain biblical mandates, such as calling for the assembling of God’s people together in person, administering the Lord’s Supper, performing baptisms of new converts, and the laying on of hands in prayer. The following are quotes from Spurgeon describing the situation:

"During that epidemic of cholera, though I had many engagements in the country, I gave them up that I might remain in London to visit the sick and the dying. I felt that it was my duty to be on the spot in such a time of disease and death and sorrow…..All day, and sometimes all night long, I went about from house to house, and saw men and women dying, and, oh, how glad they were to see my face! When many were afraid to enter their houses lest they should catch the deadly disease, we who had no fear about such things found ourselves most gladly listened to when we spoke of Christ and of things divine….

At first, I gave myself up with youthful ardor to the visitation of the sick, and was sent for from all corners of the district by persons of all ranks and religions; but, soon, I became weary in body, and sick at heart. My friends seemed falling one by one, and I felt or fancied that I was sickening like those around me. A little more work and weeping would have laid me low among the rest; I felt that my burden was heavier than I could bear, and I was ready to sink under it.

I was returning mournfully home from a funeral, when, as God would have it, my curiosity led me to read a paper which was fastened up in a shoemaker’s window in the Great Dover Road. It did not look like a trade announcement, nor was it, for it bore, in a good bold handwriting, these words: "Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation; there shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.”

The effect upon my heart was immediate. Faith appropriated the passage as her own. I felt secure, refreshed, girt with immortality. I went on with my visitation of the dying, in a calm and peaceful spirit; I felt no fear of evil, and I suffered no harm. The Providence which moved the tradesman to place those verses in his window, I gratefully acknowledge; and in the remembrance of its marvelous power, I adore the Lord my God.”

Source: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/.../spurgeon-ministry.../

Respecting the conscience of others and the decisions they make because of it is important also. If you feel free to go out and carry on as usual that is you and your conviction. It can't be a one size fits all blanket thrown over the whole church. I'm hesitant to reply here because I know where these posts can go. In spite of what they may believe personally on this issue, shepherds and elders are charged to look out for and guard their flock. Their decision of whether to meet together or not has to involve more than just their personal opinions and preferences. Because of the yet many unknowns of this virus, wisdom in my opinion would seem to dictate being safe rather than sorry. Things are beginning to open back up anyway as more are beginning to return to at least a semblance of normalcy.

"Beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak."

"But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience. you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble." ( I Corinthians 8:9, 12-13)

If casting aspersion on my brother's decision to stay at home during this pandemic causes my brother to stumble, then I will never again do so.

Food for thought.

Thanks.

Hi David, you wrote

"Beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak."

"But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience. you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble." ( I Corinthians 8:9, 12-13)

If casting aspersion on my brother's decision to stay at home during this pandemic causes my brother to stumble, then I will never again do so.

Food for thought.

Thanks.

I do regret the strong tone of my op in my introductory comments. I had posted them on my FB page but edited and revised them as follows:

During a severe epidemic, C.H. Spurgeon continued ministering to people in person, from house to house, even as he saw many die in front of him and conducted many funerals. He sought to be faithful to God’s prescribed will and trusted God to protect Him as He saw fit. Here in the US, we’ve not come anywhere near that in terms of severity right in front of us

I do want to say that I do have sympathy for pastors and church leaders in light of the fact that we've never experienced anything like this in modern times.

The governing authorities initially asked churches to cooperate with their guidelines and ordinances for a few weeks, but they continue to prolong things.

Eventually, if it becomes more clear that there are nefarious reasons for forbidding biblical practices, I think many will have to really decide who they'll obey, whether God or Caesar. Many churches in China have had to make that decision and many underground churches have made the right choice, while many Three-Self churches have compromised.

Hi Oracio,
In fairness Spurgeon today would have stopped ministering temporarily as directed.Cholera is not passed human to human in the same way as Covid .Its passed by eating contaminated water or food .If Spurgeon had the Knowledge that he could cause more death by his ministry he would have chosen to stop.He had a logical train of thought that led him to believe he was doing the right thing in carrying on in ministry.Today he would have a logical train of thought that would stop from ministry.Pastors and Elders are doing the right thing at the moment,staff

Hi Staff, I don’t believe the comparison is as apples and oranges as you think brother. But my main point was to point out the courage and boldness of Spurgeon amid deaths left and right in front of him, while many shrunk back in fear.

Hi Oracio,
They are very different diseases and the knowledge now has greatly increased.No doubt Spurgeon was showing fearless courage and boldness but Pastors leaders now are not shrinking back in fear but out of good stewardship with the knowledge that they may cause more harm rather than good.Spurgeon today would not carry on in ministry ,fear wouldnt come in to it .It isnt about fear or courage ,staff

Hi Staff,
From what I've read and understood so far, cholera can easily spread during a food-born outbreak even today, thus presenting a high risk of infection anywhere. Spurgeon saw it as something completely out of his control and trusted God's sovereign hand of protection. This coronavirus is similarly out of control regardless of these droconian, totalitarian, communistic, orwellian, dyspotian measures being implemented. Scientific studies and data have shown the high prevalence of the virus and the mortality rate being similar to the seasonal flu'a mortality rate.

Hi Oracio,
The thing is that today Spurgeon would have seen the spreading of the virius as completely under his control and he would have known that he was risking other peoples lives and would have not ministered.Spurgeon would not have minded his own health but would have minded other peoples.
On the Mortality rate compares to the flu :
This is only true if we had mitigated ie if we had gone about our daily lives ,not social distancing,hand washing etc it would have been hundreds of thousands not thousands.
The Trump admistration had said earlier in the spring that the death rate from seasonal flu is around 30,000 a year and we are at 65,000 already with Covid.If we had not mitigated then it would be a great number of times more.I cant buy into either of your arguments.The right thing to do is to follow guidelines as much as possible and this only becomes orwellian later down the track,we are jumping the gun ,its only been a couple of months,staff

The thing is that today Spurgeon would have seen the spreading of the virius as completely under his control and he would have known that he was risking other peoples lives and would have not ministered.Spurgeon would not have minded his own health but would have minded other peoples.

On the Mortality rate compares to the flu :
This is only true if we had mitigated ie if we had gone about our daily lives ,not social distancing,hand washing etc it would have been hundreds of thousands not thousands.
The Trump admistration had said earlier in the spring that the death rate from seasonal flu is around 30,000 a year and we are at 65,000 already with Covid.If we had not mitigated then it would be a great number of times more.I cant buy into either of your arguments.The right thing to do is to follow guidelines as much as possible and this only becomes orwellian later down the track,we are jumping the gun ,its only been a couple of months,staff

Regarding the 2017-2018 flu season, the CDC had said there were about 80,000 US deaths from the flu, but they eventually lowered it to about 60,000 max for that fall and winter season.

Just yesterday the CDC lowered the total current covid-19 US death toll from 60,000 to 37,000.

Edit added: Correction, at the end of March the White House projected 100k to 240k US coronavirus deaths even with stringent social distancing guidelines being adhered to.
I thought for sure I had seen the 265k figure somewhere but couldn't find it when I looked for it.

Hi
So Ive been watching an american doctor qoute the Cdc seasonal flu of 2019 2020 season as somewhere between 22,000 and 55,000 deaths .Already the US is at 65,000 plus deaths for corona virius and thats after the lockdown has been in place for many weeks.This doctor says a good average would be 1 in 1000 die from flu each year.Already we are at 2 in a thousand for Corona virus and thats after the strong measures.
Also important is the incubation period of the flu is shorter ie you get infected and have the symtoms 3 days later but an average 5 days on corona.
On hospitalization
Flu patients :If you get the flu around 2percent need to be hospitalized
Covid:If you get covid around 20 percent need to be hospitalized (as of march 18 figures)
That means a possible huge pressure on the health system.
Treatment:
Their is a flu vaccine although not perfect it does help reduce the amount and severity of the flu.Also their are anti viral drugs .Corona virus up until yesterday with Remdeisvir their was no proven treatment

I think comparing flu to coronavirus to being the same doesnt wash at all,staff

Hi Oracio,
Isnt it more presumptuous to think that Spurgeon would keep ministering knowing that he could cause people to die?Spurgeon would do what other Christian leaders did today and distanced himself.

I think your CDC figures are wrong .Here is a link from right now reading 65,000 deaths from corona virus
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/cases-in-us.html

Even if you take that 74,000 die from Corona thats only because people followed guidelines ,social distanced etc if they had not the figure would be very much higher .So again only if you compare flu with corona with social distancing in place are the figures anywhere near similar ,
staff

I think your CDC figures are wrong .Here is a link from right now reading 65,000 deaths from corona virus
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/cases-in-us.html

Hi Oracio,
I heard this brilliant qoute
A sucessfully halted pandemic is indistinguishable from an over reaction.staff

Hi Oracio,

I think a bigger question revolves around this.

As Christians we know that at some stage the enemy will try to take over control completely of the worlds systems and we dont want to be caught out!
It is so difficult to know is this the time or is that he time and so we react differently.
staff

Isnt it more presumptuous to think that Spurgeon would keep ministering knowing that he could cause people to die?Spurgeon would do what other Christian leaders did today and distanced himself.

Both of us can share info from certain doctors, scientists and other sources and our info and conclusions may yet be contradictory.

That's why I think it's beneficial if we are open to differing sides of this issue, because there are respectable professionals on both sides.

Hi Oracio,

I think a bigger question revolves around this.

As Christians we know that at some stage the enemy will try to take over control completely of the worlds systems and we dont want to be caught out!
It is so difficult to know is this the time or is that he time and so we react differently.
staff

Hi
By Caught out I simply mean,let it happen and not react,staff

Hi Oracio
Their is no way the figures in any stretch of the imagination show that the Flu being the same as Covid 19 .
Look at them
With social distancing 65,000(my guess it will be closer to 90 to 100,000 in the end)

Flu Max 60,000( 2018 Was 35,000 but this year It could be as low as 22,000)
Flu is only in the same ball park as Covid only if you take into account that social distancing measures were put in place.
If social distancing was not put in place what would the figure be?I dont know but it would have been a huge amount more if everyone went to ball games ,concerts ,restaurants and Churches that is for sure,staff

Hi
By Caught out I simply mean,let it happen and not react,staff

Secondly, there are times when it's right for Christians to speak up and stand up for their rights and freedoms, as we see with Paul in Acts 22:25 and other places in Acts. If there is a possibility of keeping certain freedoms that will continue to help advance the gospel without hindrance, why not take advantage of that? Why give up our freedoms so easily without any kind of protest?

Hi Oracio,
And their are times when Christians make a fool of themselves in the eyes of the world laying hands on sick when they are sick themselves and pass on sickness.
How stupid do some of the Pastors appear to non Christians laying on hands in this climate.
Assembling together ,the Lords Supper ,baptisms are covered under the law of grace.The Lord knows we cant do these things in this season and it would be bad stewardship to do them.
It is a Christian right to speak up at the right time but its also our responsibilty not the "cry wolf" because when the wolf really comes we want to be taken seriously.
Their is a time to protest but especially in the USA its not now ,You have the most "Godly President" not maybe in outward manner but in deeds he has shown to stand up for Christians and Israel and the unborn.If Hillary Clinton was in power at the moment you may be on the borderline on whether to protest or not but she is not and protesting is too much too soon,staff

Hi Oracio,
If I thought that the enemy was trying to take away freedoms at this time I would protest too.I think over all some good things are going to come out of this sad time.People will turn to God no doubt,The EU an ungodly entity if ever their was one may actually fall and China will be put back in their box.
On the other hand I am weary this may be by accident or design a dry run for something in the future,staff

Flu is only in the same ball park as Covid only if you take into account that social distancing measures were put in place.
If social distancing was not put in place what would the figure be?I dont know but it would have been a huge amount more if everyone went to ball games ,concerts ,restaurants and Churches that is for sure,staff

Hi Oracio,
But that is a totally different perspective than what you started with .
Yes they did but the question was whether the Lockdown was about taking away freedoms or not?
Their were three trains of thought one to lockdown and take pressure off health services or let everyone who is going to get it get it or contract trace and wear masks everywhere(this only worked if you were able to contain it)
The Swedes had another problem they were already after coming out of 6 months of winter where it was dark at 3 OClock and they decided they couldnt do lockdown.
The Swedes may end up being right or not but that is not the point ,it wasnt about nabbing freedoms but about which scientific approach a country would take.The Uk did what the swedes were doing but had to change course as it was clear it wasnt working for them.The Tawaineese have the best record they havent closed the economy ,they are close to China but they have contained it to contract tracing,mask wearing and cleaning everything.They have 6 deaths and a pop of 23 million.Sweden also are not measure free ,restaurants for instance have a table free between customers.The USA feared swamping the health service and chose the lockdown approach for the right reasons and motivations to save lives not take freedoms staff

Hi Oracio,
And their are times when Christians make a fool of themselves in the eyes of the world laying hands on sick when they are sick themselves and pass on sickness.

How stupid do some of the Pastors appear to non Christians laying on hands in this climate.

The enemy and many of the powers that be which are largely at his disposal, will always hate the godly and the advancement of God's kingdom and truth. He will always seek to lie and manipulate believers into submission and compromise. Many times he starts off with certain subtleties, then once he gets a foot hold he comes in stronger to get a strong hold. Before you know it you end up denying the Lord under pressure in a weak moment like Peter.

Assembling together ,the Lords Supper ,baptisms are covered under the law of grace.The Lord knows we cant do these things in this season and it would be bad stewardship to do them.

I'll mention a few good things that may come from this. For too long many of us have gotten used to an individualistic type of Christianity wherein we only come to church once a week and don't really seek to fellowship with believers. Could it be that the Lord may be saying, "Okay, since you've wanted an individualistic type of faith and have not sought to fellowship as I've prescribed in my Word, you can have your solo faith now if you really want it. You didn't take advantage of how much easier it was to try to seek out true fellowship among believers. Now you're going to have to work hard if you really want true fellowship and it may cost you dearly."

Also, for too long many of us have been used to depending on pastors to provide everything for us while we are mere spectators. But right now I've been hearing of many Christians being convicted to do more for the Lord now that they see the persecution that lies on the horizon.

May God raise up His people as a mighty army in these dark times. Amen.

If Hillary Clinton was in power at the moment you may be on the borderline on whether to protest or not but she is not and protesting is too much too soon,staff

There are a few governors that have kept "non-essential" businesses open.

DEFYING THE VIRUS

The evangelical pastor who vowed to keep preaching unless he was "in jail or the hospital" has died of COVID-19 ... only weeks after defiantly opening his church doors.

Bishop Gerald Glenn showed off his jam-packed congregation back on March 22 at the New Deliverance Evangelistic Church in Richmond, VA ... telling followers to stand up and prove their numbers ... despite social distancing guidelines and warnings against large gatherings in the face of the coronavirus pandemic.

His church announced that Glenn died on, of all days, Easter Sunday from COVID-19 a week after testing positive for the novel coronavirus.

During that infamous in-person service, the Bishop said he firmly believed God was larger than the virus and said he was proud of being "controversial" for violating safety protocols. The Bishop also claimed he was an "essential" worker, saying he's a preacher and he talks to God.

The Bishop's wife, Marcietia Glenn, is also infected with COVID-19.

The couple's daughter, Mar-Gerie Crawley, reportedly said her father dismissed his symptoms at first because he has a health condition that often results in fevers and infections. Now, she's urging everyone to stay home, saying the virus has become very real to her.

43 GET SICK AFTER PENTECOSTAL CHURCH REVIVAL, 10 TEST POSITIVE FOR COVID-19

Forty-three people fell ill after a revival at a Pentecostal church in Illinois. Of those 43, 10 have tested positive for COVID-19.

The Daily Herald reports that 80 people gathered at The Life Church of Glenview for a revival service on March 15, days before a statewide stay-at-home order was issued in Illinois. Pastor Anthony LoCascio says he considered canceling the meeting but decided not to, since the number of cases in the state were so low at that time. Plus, he reasoned, they were hosting an out-of-town guest speaker and had been promoting the event.

"A lot of people are sick," LoCascio says. "My whole family has the same symptoms."

When LoCascio woke up the morning after the service, he thought he had the flu. He had leg cramps and a fever of 102. A week later, he started coughing.

"My lungs felt very hardened and stiff, like leather," he says.

LoCascio's wife, Layna, posted on Facebook that "one of the main pillars in our church, who has cancer, is in the hospital with pneumonia and a blood infection and pancreatic cancer and Covid19. He is not doing good. He's in ICU and on a ventilator. My husband is tore up about it! SO torn up! He's been so sick as well.

"It's been 11 days straight of fever and sickness. He still has fever, and now a cough but he's able to walk and talk and eat at least. (It had gotten so bad he asked me to check on his life insurance, poor thing.) Without the prayers of precious people all over the nation praying, we might would've had a different scenario."

The church released an official statement, saying many of those who are sick are on the road to recovery.

Hi Oracio,
It also proves that Trump has your back and the ultimate power in the USA isnt buying any crap.He also said the protesters are keeping social distancing while protesting,staff

Hi Docs
I think thats sums it up really.I am feeling so sorry for these people as well but its a real illness and its not the flu.
I have gone through times before of not meeting other Christians and I am still here ,still loving God and still knowing Jesus is my saviour
staff

Listen. Read that article. Dust off your critical thinking skills and think about what it is presenting.

43 people got sick. 43!!!!! That's a LOT of people to get sick in any 1 gathering. Only 10 of them have COVID-19. Simple, deductive reasoning would lead to this conclusion: those great majority of those people weren't sick because of COVID. 43-10 = 33. That means 33 people got sick from something else and did not test positive for COVID-19. They were sick because of something else. If you have paid any attention to the facts, the incubation period for COVID is several days at the least. Those who tested positive did not catch COVID 19 at that church service like this article wants you to think.

I barely know what to say regarding these things.

If you think that all this social distancing, government control, churches being banned across the world is not some slick tactic by the enemy, look again. I am not prophet, but I saw where this was heading before it even started. I recognized it for what it was--a setup by the enemy.

If you think that abandoning the brethren is going to keep you safe from an unconscious disease, what will you do when men are beating on the door of your home? Let's be real about this people. They aren't targeting churches directly, but rarely in history have they ever just targeted churches. It's always been through some other means. Look at the Roman Empire. Christians were considered atheists because they rejected the pantheon of Gods, they were considered incestuous because they called each other "brother and sister" even in marriage, they were considered necromancers, etc, etc, etc.

I agree with Oracio. He is right about this.

I can also point to pastors that have continued to meet and have not suffered illness or died. That pastor who died had other underlying conditions that exacerbated his illness.

But I do not defend his attitude of "showing off" his church like that, as it comes accross as prideful imo. We can do God's will without that kind of pride being involved.

Many times there are certain risks or dangers associated with doing God's will. Just ask persecuted people of God throughout history beginning with the OT prophets.

In the first century all they had to do was say "Caesar is Lord" to avoid severe consequences. Without saying that they could not buy or sell and risked being thrown to lions. Some caved in while others didn't, placing themselves and their family members in mortal danger. Some may have reasoned thus, "What's so wrong with just saying Caesar is Lord when you don't really mean it if it's going to save you and your family from dying from hunger or martyrdom?"

In North Korea if you have any Christian gatherings you place yourself and your family members at high risk of being imprisoned and killed, and many have counted the cost and have suffered greatly.

Many that have compromised have said, "how stupid for those Christians to risk their lives and the lives of their family members like that. They don't care about anyone else but themselves and their fanaticism. They make Christians look like fools."

The pastor with pre-existing condition would never have had those conditions aggravated if he had not continued gatherings. Not all people have the faith of Spurgeon nor all they called to. Their decisions should not have aspersion cast upon them. The virus has taken a very large amount of lives and is still more than a little dangerous even if the figures are not what they were originally anticipated to be.

Docs,

they didn't catch COVID from church. The incubation period is too long for it to have happened the very next day. They caught it from elsewhere.

COVID is killing people. That's sad. But 3,000 die every single day by abortion. We don't shut down the country for that? The Flu is more virulent. Cancer is more common, heart disease more common, smoking more common. You can't convince me that this isn't some ploy. I've looked at the numbers. I know how to read statistics. I literally live in a house with an engineer who runs all the numbers each day.

But it is appointed for men to die once and after that, the judgment. God is the author of life and death, not a disease. Do you think people are dying and God is up in heaven saying, "if only you had taken precautions against this invisible, disease, you would have lived forever." No. He's not saying that.

The problem is our worldview. People think death is the end. It's not. If a pastor dies and goes to heaven, do you really, honestly think that he is going to regret that? No.

Hi Havok,
Spurgeon would not have carried on ministring ,no way if he thought that he was going to be an instrument for people dying he wouldnt.It would be irresponsible to think that he is immune to being a carrier.
Abortion wont shut down the country because its not contagious ,the flu is not more virulent than covid.
The flu killed 35,000 in the winter season in 2018 ,Covid has killed 70,000 as of today in the US.
Its only 70,000 because of social distancing,it would be many many times more if there werent social distancing.
Leaders of Churches are showing either stupidity,lack of good stewardship or arrogance in having meetings when their is a pandemic.
They are CDC gov figures,they are very simple to analyse .Social distancing works and perhaps herd immunity does too ,time will tell but why take the chance when we know if its human to human and you restrict that interaction its definitely going to work.staff

I don't see any conspiracy ploy. China let this thing loose through irresponsibility. Yet I'm baffled when people say we need not worry because it has only killed 40,000 or so instead of 70,000. That seems a bit non-chalant toward the 40,000. If 3,000 a day die because of abortion how does it make the daily toll form COVID any less important? I don't get it.

I'm not saying that certain government officials have not been overboard in certain locations but if this bit of government interference has worn many Christians out, what will they do when real government bias and discrimination against the church begins to take place? Scripture says the AC will be given power to make war against the saints and will overcome them. These present events might be seen as a kindergarden dress rehearsal of sorts for the future.

Peace. Things are beginning to open up again anyway.

Hi Oracio
This is not at all about martydom ,its about common sense,
The figures show this is a dangerous pandemic ,their have been worse but this is real ,its not makey uppey.Its not Martyrdom to go to a meeting in these circumstances its foolishness and its selfish as you may pass on the virius without even knowing you had it.
Its not the same as flu ,it just isnt,staff

COVID is killing people. That's sad. But 3,000 die every single day by abortion. We don't shut down the country for that? The Flu is more virulent. Cancer is more common, heart disease more common, smoking more common. You can't convince me that this isn't some ploy. I've looked at the numbers. I know how to read statistics. I literally live in a house with an engineer who runs all the numbers each day.

Why don't we hear about the sad stories of those experiencing excruciating pain while dealing with other medical conditions (such as cancer or a killer flu) right up to their last dying breath?

This covid-19 thing just seems so hyped up all the sudden. And then we're learning of the numbers being inflated. In New York they had to detract 4k from their death toll recently.

Hi Oracio
This is not at all about martydom ,its about common sense,
The figures show this is a dangerous pandemic ,their have been worse but this is real ,its not makey uppey.Its not Martyrdom to go to a meeting in these circumstances its foolishness and its selfish as you may pass on the virius without even knowing you had it.
Its not the same as flu ,it just isnt,staff

We cannot live and/or operate our lives based on these kinds of unknowns (i.e. thinking we may have a virus even if there's no evidence of it, or thinking we may be at risk of other things).

Many in Asian countries have been conditioned to live like that even when there is no pandemic. Many Asians have been wearing masks all the time, even here in the US way before this pandemic. They want to condition everyone to live like this folks.

These scriptures come to mind:

"The wicked flee when no one pursues, but the righteous are bold as a lion.-Proverbs 28:1

The lazy man says, "There is a lion outside! I shall be slain in the streets!”-Proverbs 22:13

The fear of man brings a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord shall be safe.-Proverbs 29:25

Hi Oracio,
As I said before alot of Christians fear being caught out and this looks like that to me.
We know that 70,000 Americans have died ,thats a known and we know that the virus passes Human to Human and we know we have limited ways to treat it.
The governments around the world had to do something and most went to social distancing including China because it was the only thing that was sure to have an effect and it did.
This is fear you are living in as well ,fear of being caught out and fear of not reacting ,its still fear staff

Hi staff, there is no sound reason for taking that 70k figure or any other figure put out by the msm, city officials, state officials or the CDC or WHO for that matter at face value. They've been changing their figures left and right, and have included probable victims who were not tested. Both the case numbers and death numbers the msm touts are not reliable in the least bit, unless you take everything they throw at you at face value without questioning anything and without fact checking things for yourself.

If you want to just take everything the msm throws at you like that at face value, go ahead brother, but many of us have considered differing sources of data and have done comparisons and have concluding that we smell a rat here.

Remember, the msm has a proven tract record of lying and exaggerating to get their biased point across. Just look at how CNN and others have daily sought to malign the president without cause ever since he took office. That's just one tiny example among so many.

Hi Oracio,
Last night you were qouted CDC gov .Come off it. The more likely as in Britian and France they delibrately didnt put figures in .They are not playing it up ,they are playing it down if anything.
You are smelling rats where there are no rats.Yes the Chinese and WHO are trying to hide the truth its obvious but their is no big conspiracy going on here .People are dying ,ive had people up the road who died from it .
You have been in lockdown too much ,let God sort it out.The stuff you are talking isnt real.Yeah CNN and the gang are against Trump thats nothing new but the American figures are pretty spot on or higher rather than lower .
What you are saying is that their can never be a pandemic without it also being a conspiracy ,staff

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/reporting-pui.html

Look at the first few lines of the CDC website. Any presence of COVID-19 is considered positive.

It doesn't matter what they die from. If they test positive for COVID, it is a death by COVID.

This is why our numbers are so crazy.

I have also been looking at the numbers. The percent of people who had been tested for COVID and found positive was 15% max (based on a daily average). This max occurred April 4. Now what does that say. That means that 85% of the people who showed symptoms that warranted testing did not have COVID.

And this is a ploy. It is. Not by men, but by satan and his minions.

05/04/2020 Tanzania’s President Tests Pawpaw Fruit For COVID-19 & It Tested Positive: "Something Is Happening”

The Facts: Tanzania's President John Magufuli has dismissed imported coronavirus testing kits as faulty, saying they returned positive results on samples taken from a goat and a pawpaw.

Reflect On: How much of what we're being told is false? How much is true? What is really going on with the new coronavirus, testing, death rates and infection fatality rates? Are there powerful people trying to capitalize off the coronavirus in some way?

Coronavirus test kits that’ve been sent to Tanzania, Africa, have come under fire from their president, John Magufuli. Magufuli is claiming that coronavirus testing kits are faulty, given the fact that they have returned positive results on samples taken from a pawpaw fruit as well as a goat.

After the testing kits were imported from abroad, he ordered Tanzanian security forces to check the quality of the kits. To do this, they obtained multiple non-human samples, which also included a pawpaw, a goat and a sheep. They assigned them human names and ages and were then submitted to Tanzania’s laboratory for coronavirus testing, all the while the lab technicians were deliberately left unaware of the origins of the samples.

Full article: https://rb.gy/4d3xos

Hi Oracio,
When goldrushers back in the day continued to stay on propecting beyond any reasonable chance of getting a "Vein of Gold" they were said to have "married the vein".
Ithink thats where your arguement is at.
You are qouting wild speculation now.
I heard over 2 months ago the Mike Pence task force saying the certain tests were faulty and they gave false negatives and I also heard them saying that if you reverse the figures over 95 percent of people came back negative for Covid.
None of these things are news that was not there before.They also said they were putting in anyone with Covid as dying with Covid so nobody was hiding anything,I heard all that before on mainstream media.The test kit the Tanzanians uses I hazard to guess was not made in the US.Everyone knew there were faulty test and protective gear being made .You are entering wild speculation now and altough your original arguement was about Spurgeon and had some points to be explored ,this theory that the American Gov is being duped and their is a conspiracy beyond the conspiracy we know to be true which is the Chinese are covering up and the media hate Trump is years of distrust coming out with the wrong conclusions,staff

Staff,

Your argument has consistently been that COVID is worse than the flu, you've cited CDC numbers, and you've pointed to experts in your appeal.

However, your argument is flawed.

We have already shown that the numbers are overinflated. We have already shown that the numbers change after being reported. We have already shown that heart disease, cancer, and death by smoking kill more people each year than Coronavirus.

To say that we are entering wild speculation by merely referencing other sources that don't agree with your already preconceived notions is a combination of the bandwagon and genetic fallacies. You assume we are wrong. It doesn't matter the data we present or the questions we ask. Your assumptions have not addressed the fundamental things we have presented regarding the data.

As far as a conspiracy is concerned. We are saying that this is a spiritual battle. Can I give you objective data for that? No. No one can. I am operating on a hunch that this is why I am seeing things play out the way they are. Feel free to ignore that, but you can't throw out everything else we've said because you don't agree with this one point.

"During that epidemic of cholera, though I had many engagements in the country, I gave them up that I might remain in London to visit the sick and the dying. I felt that it was my duty to be on the spot in such a time of disease and death and sorrow…..All day, and sometimes all night long, I went about from house to house, and saw men and women dying, and, oh, how glad they were to see my face! When many were afraid to enter their houses lest they should catch the deadly disease, we who had no fear about such things found ourselves most gladly listened to when we spoke of Christ and of things divine….

I see Spurgeon quote in line with social distancing as well. If Spurgeon was alive today under this Pandamic, he would have called and facetimed the needy people rather than visiting their home. I am sure he too would have participated in Social distancing.

I am saying this not because one virus is severe than other. I am saying this because the times have changed. Supergeon no longer needed to go and visit the sick by entering their house. Technology has improved so much that by sitting at his place he can meet with the needy brothers and sisters.

My family helped a Covid19 elderly person in our community in both Physical and spiritual way and also keeping social distancing. If we are walking with Christ nothing should separate us from doing his will even during lockdown.

You are qouting wild speculation now.
I heard over 2 months ago the Mike Pence task force saying the certain tests were faulty and they gave false negatives and I also heard them saying that if you reverse the figures over 95 percent of people came back negative for Covid.
None of these things are news that was not there before.They also said they were putting in anyone with Covid as dying with Covid so nobody was hiding anything,I heard all that before on mainstream media.The test kit the Tanzanians uses I hazard to guess was not made in the US. Everyone knew there were faulty test and protective gear being made .You are entering wild speculation now and altough your original arguement was about Spurgeon and had some points to be explored ,this theory that the American Gov is being duped and their is a conspiracy beyond the conspiracy we know to be true which is the Chinese are covering up and the media hate Trump is years of distrust coming out with the wrong conclusions,staff

In places like Canada and the UK, they recently rejected many thousands of Chinese-made test kits after realizing they were faulty.

About a week ago, California’s governor ordered 100s of millions of masks from China at $1 billion. No wild speculation there.

Remember, supposedly the president is wanting to investigate China on that Wuhan lab. Why would the governor of California order all those masks from China? Is he not aware of the possibility of all those masks being infected, just like their faulty test kits have been infected? Of course he’s aware.

Why am I pointing all this out in this thread on Spurgeon’s response to the Cholera outbreak? Simply to say that Spurgeon too would have put on his thinking cap in these dark times of massive deception from the enemy and from the big powers that be. I don’t see Spurgeon being that easily misled by the msm and these corrupt, tyrannical politicians and other powerful entities moving things behind the scenes (e.g. the Bill Gates’ of the world today).

Speaking of how pastors are responding to this virus, I thought this pastor did a good job of outlining where things are and where things may be headed; this message seems to be trending and going viral right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTd1R72Maaw

Hi Oracio,
An antibody test is not a test to see if a person has covid,its a test to see if they had covid.Its only use is that it gives a very good idea how many of the population had covid.
So antibody tests are only a medium long term fact finding excercise.
The US has also the best test and most reliable covid test in the world hands down in the ABBOTT 5 MIN TO 13 MIN test .
China has been sending dodgy equipment around the world for the last 10 years ,alot of it is cheap poor quality rubbish ,their is nothing new in that why should be different when it comes to medical equipment.China was the only place that was in high production because of the original outbreak and their was a massive bidding war between countrys to get masks at the start ,California had no choice but to source where ever they could.
Cholera as I said is a totally different animal than Covid,Cholera is not spread by coughing or sneezing ,Cholera is spread by water or food ,not person to person .Your assumption that Spurgeon knowing that he could spread covid would then go on ministring is way of the mark .To me you are being misled to a certain degree.I have watched people on SI for years being hyped up by martyrdoom ,by the siege mentality and by the longing for persecution where the Church has to go underground in the US(which never seems to come).Then when the US gets a president that shares the Christian values they are still at it and cant embrace the good things happening.This is nothing to do with being mislead .Governments had to make a decision and the safest option was mitigation and lockdown rather than the untried herd immunity which isnt working at all for Sweden despite people saying it is.3000 Deaths compares to Norway 215 deaths with half the population.We all have our thinking caps on but its important not to over think a simple situation ,staff

Brothers, just my thought on statistics and science. Many Christians with minimal knowledge of science and math, think that science is so specific in what it says. Actually science does not say anything only scientists say based on their scientific experiments and observations. 2 different scientists can observe a same test result and can come to 2 different interpretation of it. So just because there is a scientific test or a scientific claim, things are not definite.

Statistics is also something similar, we can see a data and interpret it in multiple way. The well known example of a half filled bottle which can be seen as half empty or half full. And both are correct.

So COVID19 numbers and thoughts can be interpreted in so many ways. One can look into COVID19 numbers in USA and say that even with lockdown the numbers are high. One can also look into Sweden and say that lockdown does not affect the count as their numbers are very low. So just looking into numbers we cannot confidently say anything.

My stand on this issue is neutral. While I understand social distancing is needed, I also understand that economy should be protected as well. So many daily wage earners are affected especially in developing countries.

I have got reports from my church brothers and sisters who work in hospitals directly facing the patients. They say that this infection is serious. Many healthy people even relatively younger are suddenly having multiple organ failures and no one knows why COVID19 is causing this. One reason is the sudden reduction in oxygen level in the body for which each body reacts differently. I trust such reports because these brothers and sisters are not having any reason to lie.

Sree,

You are right in saying that statistics can be interpreted a variety of ways.

However, look at the links I posted or commented on, especially that article where 43 people got sick. Look at how they are using the numbers--they are manipulating them to paint an untrue picture.

The article says that 43 people got sick at this church function. 10 tested positive for COVID. They write it like people spread the virus; however, it is so obvious that these people didn't catch COVID from each other.

Not all the statistics are bad. However, there is a right way to interpret data and a wrong way. Many, many times, the data is being manipulated and presented in series of half-truths. The picture that is painted is not what is real.

Hi Sree,
I dont agree on statistics not being accurate or important but they can be manipulated .The old saying lies,damn lies and statistics!

Lets be clear Sweden 10 million pop is a basket case at the moment 3000 dead compares to Norway 5 million pop its neighbour with 215 dead .So the Swedes count is not low.
The reason why governments went with mitigate and lockdown is that you are gaurenteed results versus the herd immunity approach which you may or may not get results and is a big gamble.
your qoute
One can also look into Sweden and say that lockdown does not affect the count as their numbers are very low.

I totally agree with your Christian hospital workers this is not a hoax and real people are dying because of Covid and it certainly not the Flu,Fair comment over all staff

Hi
To be fair with Oracio,
Its obvious alot of deception is going on too on things like the effective drugs like in the link below .These drugs are being down played just because they are being reccomended by the President,This can only be described as evil,
staff
https://aapsonline.org/hcq-90-percent-chance/