Some scriptural Reasons Christians should not wear masks in church services or stay on lockdown

//What kind of God will allow his people to catch plague like diseases as they meet with him i.e. gather unto
Him? Where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name He is there.
(or is he not?)//

It’s already happened plenty of times, so you tell me. Whole choirs have been infected.

If a person doesn’t want to wear a mask in church I could care less but they can’t complain or blame God if they get sick or pass it on to at risk family members. The virus does not magically fall out of people’s bodies as they enter the building. It is wishful thinking to think churchgoers are miraculously immune.

I personally won’t be attending church in person, even with a mask, until all this dies down. I agree online church is obviously not ideal, but our online Bible study is actually as good as it is in person.

John Lake Protected From Bubonic Plague:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/everestalexander.wordpress.com/2015/10/18/john-g-lake-bubonic-plague-testimony/amp/

Mike-
Not 100% sure what your point is. Neither I nor any reasonable Christian would say God does not sometimes protect his followers.

At the same time thousands of Christians die every year from disease.

Covid-19 is a disease that Christians can catch.

Are you saying they can’t? If so then I guess the test for true faith is susceptibility to Covid-19.

TMK, Overall I have to agree with you here while understanding Greg's Concerns.
The question here is Has this gone too far and is this a delibrate attempt to halt our spiritual freedom in Christ by Satan and a delibrate attempt to halt our religous freedoms by our Government?
On the first one we can be sure Satan has a hand in this no doubt.Yes by some government and no by others.
I do not like the idea of wearing masks on the one hand because here we are a shining light to the world preaching the power and healing of Christ and we dont seem to be as powerless as anyone else.
On the other hand I dont think wearing masks has crossed a the line of being persecuted but has put possible future persecution on the table or in the ball park.
Where is the Line Then you may ask?
For me the line is biblical and its a thing God hates.
The thing God hates is for his people to be counted .
The passage where Satan caused David to count the people is very revealing about the end times and about Gods view of the Church .The church and the final amount of people in the Church are for God to know and no one else .As David found out when he counted what did not belong to him the consequences were pretty dire.
I dont believe they have crossed the line with Masks but I wont attend Church if I have to sign,become an official Church member of if I have to sign in for the case of Coronavirus.So I wont get involved in the counting of Christians thats for God to know not me or David ,urs staff

Christians wear seatbelts because risk of harm from an auto accident is real. A Christian does not HAVE to wear a seatbelt but they may get a ticket if they don’t and they may fly through the windshield in a bad wreck.

I don’t see the difference. Obviously if there was no Covid virus, masks would not be necessary. But because the risk is real- like the risk of getting into a car accident is real, we wear a mask.

I don’t see how logically the two scenarios are different. All kinds of precautions are taken against known risks. I don’t think it’s a lack of faith or a sign of weakness to use our brains.

Why all of a sudden is this virus a spiritual issue instead of simply a medical issue?

Hi Tmk,
I agree with you on the practicalities of Corona virus and of course you are right where we find ourself is with a disease that we have to take precautions against.
It becomes a spiritual issue because the way many of the politicians are using the virus to cause mayhem and anarchy.These politicians and related media are clearly with doubt in my opinion being influenced by principalities and powers.I have never seen politicians and media being so overtly evil.
So we are walking a fine line in doing what is practical and right to do to stop covid and watching and fighting a force that is very evil and using our predicament to spread choas and would in a flash stop Christian Worship,Its the classic Rock and a hard place but Jesus is our Rock is the redeeming factor ,staff
P.s Over the years I have argued as many know against finding Persecution behind every stone and am not a post tribulationist as many are on SI .However although I will do like you follow medical and practical advice I also realize thier is an amazing evil force at play at the moment ,a force we havent seen in our lifetimes so I am vigilant too.

this has to be one of the greatest shams of all time...

100 the enemy has fingerprints all over it...
he came to kill,steal,and destroy- just look around 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Tend to agree with the OP at least in general. If people that identify as Christians wear a mask in faith that would be different than people wearing one in fear,... that would by definition be sin. The way to tell the difference is when someone is wearing a mask in faith towards God, they aren’t requiring that you wear one also. When a person is acting in fear, that triggering of their self-preservation mechanism, they desire control so they will naturally require you to wear one too and use every agency available to make you do it (even tho it says on the box it doesn’t protect against this flu).

There are cases of Christians who might need to be more cautious but that has more to do with their spiritual health and less with their physical health.
If someone wants to wear a mask at church, I personally wouldn’t restrict them from doing so,... however to require that everyone does is a gross overreact and signals an end in itself to the self-governance of the Church as we knew it :(

If the media didn’t hype this flu up, it would not have had this effect- full stop.
Everyone knows it, wether they admit it to themselves or not. They (med officials) are and were wrong about EVERY single prediction and yet people continue to listen and follow them.
This has been incentivized monetarily for the medical community to participate in this obviously planned event. It’s only a step towards a definitive end whereby a greater destruction (also planned) occurs. We are (mostly) all playing along and pretending that things which aren’t true are true by virtue of masses of people collectively participating in it (albeit for differing reasons)... mass deception is afoot and I’ll prove it right now to every reader of this post-

"If the medical community said in concert that the ONLY way to avoid contracting this virus was to smoke cigarettes and the government’s required via mandates that everyone comply and smoke them,... would you all be so quick to comply? "

James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

It’s a lie!!! From the father of lies !!
But we have been so slack, so worldly in our practice of faith- conditioned over decades to act just like the unbelieving that it’s not difficult for most to conform to the image of the world, which is precisely what is happening... aka; the great falling away :(

This is not different and not separate from Americans pretending that J Biden isn’t sliding down the slippery slope of dementia.... which he obviously and undeniably is and couldn’t run a register at Baskin Robbins for a week so how pray-tell could he run the worlds most powerful military and largest economy ?? To even suggest he has a capable is an affront to all honest and rational people everywhere, yet we are all silent and compliant because we fear man more than we fear God and that my dear brothers and sisters will be charged to our our accounts. This is the same "spell” that leads to people pretending that gender is a social construct and not a biological reality, there really is no difference in that they are both lies from the pit of hell and are given life through the belief (denial of conscience) and the participation (silence) of the masses... this road leads to one place - destruction:(

Perhaps this COVID 19 pandemic is a sham and a work of the evil one, but my father passed away from the COVID 19 viruw on JULY 5TH. I was with him as he took his last breath, and watched the effects of this "sham" undermine his ability to eat, drink, and eventually even swallow.

While caring for him, I myself contracted the virus and it nearly took my own life. I am still dealing with the after effects of the virus.

My father wore a mask, and sought to be reasonably cautious, but when he became infected, the virus quickly crippled his body. I contracted the virus while caring for him.

Unless you personally have known those who have lost a loved one and or had a serious case of the virus yourself, it is easy to develop all kinds of theories.

mak

Have you had a loved one eaten alive from the inside out by cancer, leukemia etc....?
I have as well as dementia and while I can personally relate to and empathize with your loss, are you suggesting that you would support a global lockdown to stop the spread of those diseases?
Or better yet, how bout heart disease ... (the number one killer) should the medical community be authorized to ban lattes and McDonalds ?

I’m not saying there isn’t a flu like contagion that has extreme affects for a very small amount of people.... what I am saying is that there is obviously a sham being perpetrated on the public by media, health officials and anyone else ideologically aligned with the deception of the enemy-
So to be clear, it’s not the flu that is a sham- it is the response and coordinated forced compliance.

"Dear Saints, I humbly come here today in obedience to the Lord. His Spirit constrained me this morning to come and reply to certain ones who responded to the article. True Saints, Let us beware. Remember our Lords words. John 6:44 "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.' Some will cast off faith and betray Jesus and true saints in these last days. Let us please remember "1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils..; 2 timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness,but denying te POWER THEREOF, FROM SUCH TURN AWAY. Just like in every church in America some if not many of this beautiful God provided forum have inwardly turned away from the faith and are just really what you will call agnostics. Meaning they think God may or may not save his people, God may or may not hear prayers, God may or may not heal... Faithless and perverse generation...May God help us. Where there is sin and perversion in the church or our lives there will be no living faith. 1 timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.' And where there are idols in our lives and no passionate love for Jesus there will also be no living faith, I mean a faith with evidence, with works "faith that can believe God for healing or even raising the dead..' Galatians 5:6 "Faith that works by love." Repentance is needed for church, not mandating masks. "Whole choirs have been infected. " Ask how many choir members in the usa are involved in immorality, fornication etc? Do you think MAJORITY OF our choirs are so holy and full of obedient people? According to Christianity today over 50 percent of pastors admit struggling with looking at wrong pictures.
Yes Again, if whole choirs can be infected while singing praises in our churches we need to go back and see what is wrong, for all through the bible God kept his people from plagues except when they had sinned or were not obeying Him." Judgment begins in the house of God. Mandating Masks in church now is not the answer, only a small patch on a big wound, for the church we need genuine repentance. READ 2 Kings 25 Jeremiah declared judgment was coming to Jerusalem. Furthermore once Jeremiah decreed judgement for sin was coming in several instances, Gods people tried to escape to other nations for their lives instead of facing,repenting and bearing the consequences of their sin. The prophet told them don't go stay here and it will be well with you though you may suffer etc but they tried to save their lives not repent and were destroyed. Same way even now, churches and saints who think instead of repenting and crying out for Gods power in our lives and churches, they think not assembling as church, social distancing, not preaching the gospel and not singing praise in church, muzzle mouths with masks is going to save us. No dear saints, THIS ONLY furthers THE disobedience that most churches/christians in the west has been living in already. I humbly say it has potential to only add fuel to Gods grief and anger with his people. Mandating Vaccine or mask for church members is not our answer for people catching viruses in church services in Christs presence. Repentance of personal and corporate sin and a restoration of Gods power and presence is what is needed. Those who reject repenting and seek to run to egypt for help will find that greater judgment will still come in another way for any help from egypt comes at a price, either send leanness to ones soul, killing the faith thats already almost dead or sorrows from hands pierced by leaning on the staff of egypt. Isa 36:6 "Lo, thou trusteth in the staff of this broken reed, Egypt, on which if a man leans, it will go into his hand and pierce it. So is Pharoah king of Egypt to all who trust in him." Beloved saints, Let us repent and the poer of our God will be present again to heal us and we will see and show his glory to the world. Grace peace and love to all who love our Christ sincerely.

Amen Brother and let me be clear that saints still weak in faith may feel the need to wear masks etc, we do not condemn. Its like the meat issue, one more mature says I am free I can eat meat, the other younger in faith and weaker says I cannot eat will wound my conscience. Both are accepted before the Lord. Both are acting according to the measure of faith they have. I am talking specifically about a whole church MANDATING MASKS or even ministers of the gospel using masks in church, there is no excuse but fear and unbelief. May God help us for without faith it is impossible to please God. And if ministers are filled with fear then it will be the faithless leading a people called to be full of faith. God help us. But we have a high priest.. Whose name is faithful and true, the WORD of God. We will listen to Him. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God, He is our HOPE, OUR ANCHOR IN THESE troublesome days.

SisterMargie- your "theology” stinks.

Mak-

I am very sorry to hear about your father. I have parents (75 and 79) in the hot zone in FL.

Praying that you will continue to make a full recovery.

Hi All,
I have heard in the posts nothing to convince me that TMK is wrong in his views regarding the virus and the need to take precautions.
This is not a lack of faith by no means or a spirit of fear but good stewardship.
Is their absolute evil behind this yes most definitely,Is it effecting our politicians and media 100 percent it is.
Are the enemies motivates evil and from the pit of hell for sure.Is this illness unlike other illnesses again I am sure it is because powers and dominians behind it .
The thing is that both can be true and correct at the same time taking practical percautions and being vigilant about the enemy and his plans at the moment but wearing masks or not wearing masks in not about faith or fear,staff

Condolences
Makrothumia at this horrible time for you.You did great by your Father by looking after him and its something you will never regret and will be proud of.
Its easy for everyone to be theoretical about the virus when it doesnt effect us first hand.I am glad you were present right up to the end and I think the most devasting stories are about people who were saying goodbye by iphones etc Its truely heartbreaking.We at SI are praying for your recovery and your time of grief in the Name of the Saviour Jesus,Amen urs staff

I just want to be clear that I am 100% on board that the media, left wing politicians are using this virus and the BLM issue to further ungodly agendas. I speak out about this almost daily. I am convinced there is gross over reporting of Covid deaths and a couple of news stories out of FL in the last week prove this out.

Nonetheless we cannot deny this virus is again spreading rampantly and to me it is simply stupid and incredibly naive to not take precaution.

However I am not a mask Nazi- I could care less what other people do. But if I am indoors at a store I will have a mask on until this dies down.

Sister Margie seems to be of the Word of Faith ilk that says those with enough faith don’t get sick and die. Extreme poppycock and silliness as the greatest Christians who ever lived who were born up to the 1920s or so are now dead.

Yours is not an unreasonable position and am not against you nor the position the Lord has you in to be His witness. Also I tend to agree with that last bit of sarcasm

" as the greatest Christians who ever lived who were born up to the 1920s or so are now dead. "

Would you be willing to consider that other believers see that this is the case and it’s because we fumbled the ball,... and now, tho facing a more daunting task, we have another opportunity to advance to Kingdom and the Scriptures say God is all in... so for some there is a fire inside to take the gospel of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ and running with it, set the whole world ablaze for Him by bearing the light of His presence.

Every generation faces defining moments, (challenges) and how they’re responded to determines in large part the framework of the next generations landscape or environment, (Spiritually, socially, culturally, governmentally etc..)
So in order for people to do that under the direction Holy Spirit, they have to set "themselves” aside or crucified and allow Him to lead us in His path, otherwise we’re just walking our own path with a Jesus t-shirt on . 🤷🏽”â™‚️

It’s understandable that this might seem unreasonable or even delusional by more pragmatic perspectives, but for those whom practice faith in this way it is the only reasonable option in existence.
I don’t belong to me,... He bought me and any willful actions on my part are effectively denying Him the right to His purchase, even and especially self-preservation. "he who seeks to save his, life shall lose it but he who gives it for His name shall find it "
Personally it’s somewhat like being a donkey that carries the light of His life to whom ever He says, whenever He says. He knows the needs of His sheep and meets them before they ask but we can’t hear Him so well when we are in command, making our own decisions based on our perspectives because we’re not really listening as one whom seeks to be commanded, people tend to go to God more for guidance and approval, often we actually tell God what to do,... much like Martha but Jesus is seeking Mary’s

So mask or no mask Jesus is Lord of all 💯

//The way you responded to sister Margie grieved me.//

I guess I’m getting too old to beat around the bush. Actually I’m not THAT old but I can’t stand by and read such WOF nonsense without saying something. To the uninitiated it may sound so wonderful and so spiritual but nonetheless it is nothing but lies and very harmful to the body of Christ.

They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to SHRINK FROM DEATH. Revelation 12:11

There was a time in John Wesley's life that he faced death and he shrank from it. He realised that all his "christian" life up to that point was a figment of his imagination, even though he was a missionary to the indians in america. He sought God after this point of his life and was born again, but the pivotal point was the fear of death he had on the ship.

Maybe God is using this virus to shake up those who have been playing games, not really born again. The fact that they are fearful is evidence that they know not God! Giving them time to repent and give their life to Him before it is too late. May we have ears to hear for time is short and this is just the start to the shakings we are all about to see come upon the earth.

But the COWARDLY/FEARFUL, the UNBELIEVING, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. Revelation 21:8

Blessings Steve

Edited.

I was just reading some of the posts on this thread and though I'm sure she and I might have some differences in doctrine if we sat down to go over it all, Greg and I do know Margie personally. She is an unknown missionary, among other things, who has given her her whole life--every aspect of it-- absolutely sacrificially to Christ without reserve.

She is a sister in Christ who in time of our need or sickness, rather than mention it at a prayer meeting (although that is a blessing too!) has actually gone into prayer for hours or longer -- with fasting. As far as the "word of faith" movement, no she is no part of that. But she does have absolutely faith in His word and trembles at it.

May we all have grace and love one another fervently and bear long with each other in these days of social distancing and division.

Dear Alan and Dina, we are SO sorry to hear of your loss . ((Thank you)) for helping us all see another, very personal side to this, and the need to be so tender and considerate of those for whom this is hitting so close to home...

Praying for everyone on this forum... love to you all. God is faithful.

My main beef is with this statement: "What kind of God allows his people to catch sicknesses and diseases as they are praising Him?"

There is very improper theology behind that statement that essentially leads to the rest of her assertions. Is it really necessary to go back through the ages and list all the great saints who died prematurely from sickness and disease? What about all the other horrible things that happen to real and true Christians on a daily basis?

And the idea that it is "cowardly” to wear a mask is absurd. Is it cowardly for Christians to put on sunscreen, wear a seatbelt, have fire alarms and extinguishers, learn how to swim, wear insect repellant, get medical checkups, stop at stop signs, avoid snarling pit bulls, wear eye protection when warranted, take prescribed medication, stay hydrated in the heat etc etc etc?

No- these are common sense things with ZERO spiritual component. I’ll even go out on a limb and say that even Jesus took some precautions in his carpentry shop.

Jesus told the devil that doing stupid, potentially harmful things and expecting God to save you was "putting God to the test.” Needless to say he did not throw himself off the temple roof.

Since I have developed over the past years, a powerful prayer life, and have the time in my life now, to almost continually pray and talk to God, my response to this thread, will be all about prayer. While some may give in to cynicism and think there is nothing we can do, let’s not forget the power of prayer.

Prayer is the exact prescription the Bible gives us to cure anxiety. It’s easy to want to look at all the news outlets and overthink all the possible negative outcomes that can take place. All that will do is rob us of the peace God promises us. "Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.” Philippians 4:6

We can panic, or we can pray, but we can’t do both. Jesus called His church a house of prayer, and now is our time. It’s time to pray for God’s intervention to stop the spread of this disease. It’s time to ask for healing. It’s time to ask for peace and comfort for those who have lost loved ones. It’s time for us to ask for direction and discernment for our leaders and our homes. Prayer is powerful and effective, and if we are too busy panicking instead of praying, we forfeit our greatest strength.

In the face of the coronavirus pandemic, we have the power to choose our response. When we choose faith over fear, wisdom over worry, and prayer over panic, we can experience the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding. In doing so, we become the light of Christ in a very dark situation.

Brother you do not know me but there are some here who have known my life and testimony for many years including Greg Gordon and wife. I am what I am by God's grace anddobnot judge even myself yes. Christ will be my defender on that great eternal day of accounting. I will say this for now. I am a 42 year old Virgin who loved Jesus so much I gave my whole life to him at age of 17 as a fulltime missionary. I recently returned back from Kenya and I am here because the Lord told me stay and pray for revival. I live completely by faith like George Mueller trusting only in the Lord for every need doing full-time missionary work in USA and abroad. I also guide a missionary training center and mission house dedicated to day and night prayer. I believe in modesty purity, ie ideally I think couples should share first kiss even after marriage. See how ancient in views I am O but what peace and security it wroughts in the soul. . Following the ancient words of faith in the scriptures. Word of faith I am not, if you mean those who deny reality. I just believe in Gods truth and facts more than any other truth or facts. TRUTH is God will heals and is a healer and loves to heal his people./people. It will be unto us all according to our faith. I was healed by God at the age of 17 and now 42 and I have never taken a single pill after that till this day. Jesus has kept me in divine health as I've trusted Him. I have lived like like George Mueller and Jesus has never failed me. So No brother I am not word of faith, not sure who they are, not interested, may God save and sanctify them if unsaved, BUT I believe completely in God's word written in the Holy Scriptures. . I have experienced the healing I speak of not just living in a fantasy land of untruth and denying reality,believing you are sick but claiming you are well no. I have prayed for many saints to be healed this time with no socal distancing from any saint and God mercifully has done so even those with corona. Yesterday I personally cooked food and took lunch and dinner to a dear Christian family to a family with corona symptoms, prayed God will heal and strengthen them as they eat, which happened. Then went to a hutterite family and did 5 hours prayer and testimony/christian exhortation. then 2 hours praying for the dismantling and exposing of Muslim brotherhood activities in the USA by God's grace, I esteem humility so speaking like a fool here as Paul says but you boast of how good your online bible study is, , this is love for saints brother, risking our lives for them not sitting in front of online screen posting on sermon index unbelief. Calling faith nonsense. Spiritual things are foolishness to the natural or carnal, they cannot receive it, because they are spiritually discerned. We should love the saints in deed not just from my online screen. I write these things to say brother my ancient what you call bad theology views has kept me and others full of faith and unspeakable joy and confidence even in times like this. Right now I minister in Africa,busa and among Amish people whom God is saving and strengthening with his scriptures and filling with his Holy Ghost. I guarantee what I posted was led by the Lord and not harmful to anyone but Satan and unclean spirits who wants saints to live in fear and unbelief. I want to respond humbly in a Christlike manner but still speak the truth. Jesus help. Brother consider what I say here for I will type no more responses after this though tempting . Again I am not word of faith but I do believe in Gods word literally and wholeheartedly and in my Lord fully. What I have written I have written. I do not know you but brother you say you speak in such an unChristlike way it's because you are old. Truth is the older spiritual saints get the more peaceable wisdom you will have and you will have the tongue of the learned to know how to speak to other younger saints or women. You will respect and nurture the faith of weaker vessels. Which include Sisters or children. I'm sad to say it brother but I believev your speech sounds like the worldly liberals of the world today. and carnal. Do you spend too much time on worldly or liberal news? Instead of fellowshipping with sains?!that's one of the results if you do. Liberals attack the personhood of people they do not agree with. Brother you also said you will not gather in church with or without mask until all this is over. That your online Bible studies is just as good. O brother, how sad and telling. When will that be? Some do not value the gathering of saints nor see the worth of obeying God's commands. Do you truly have the interests of Christ at heart? If you did you will encourage saints to gather even if some need masks. Yet you say you wont go to church at all until all this is over? When will that be? I beseech you to Show more concern for Christ's will on earth. It is his will that his saints gather with him displaying the fruits of the spirit and exercising the gifts of the spirit. Yet you say you are concerned this article that exhorts saints to have faith and trust God and gather will hurt people? Satan is a deceiver. And angel of light who will deceive even saints when not walking in intimacy with Christ. Beware. Brother I humbly ask all saints to consider in this day,am I in a good earnest spiritual state right now, if not I fear carnal or worldly unChristlike attitude and words will hurt saints if left here unchecked. I love you in Christ dear saints including our Brother Todd. I remind all to keep eyes on Jesus. Church awake. Be that glorious church again. O innocent lambs of Christ. Beware of dogs, backsliders, vipers, religious Pharisees meaning to take all life out of you and foxes, government officials wanting to trick and deceive you. Cling to your Christ. Now More than ever before. Like little children. With all your heart. Cling to his word and be full of childlike faith and trust. CLING. Insist to see Jesus. Let no man or woman block your way. Lay hold unto eternal life. Cut off hand feet eyes anything that will cause you to sin. Behold HE COMES!

First of all the article was written in response to a church considering mandating masks for everyone. If weaker Christians in faith feel they need masks in church there is no condemnation. But Older mature believers full of faith trusting God should not be mandated to wear masks violating their conscience. It's very simple, any sincere spiritual saint can understand these words. Like Jesus said, Why is it that you cannot understand my speech, even because ye cannot hear my word. When we listen to the voice of strangers we cannot hear God's word of faith. No I'm not word of faith though Yes Faith comes by hearing and hearing by God's word. I kindly ask that you cease your liberal godless attacks brother. There are better, more edifying Christlike ways to communicate truth.

"Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil."
Proverbs 3:7

"Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!"
Isaiah 5:21

"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness . . . Therefore let no man glory in men"
1 Corinthians 3:18-19,

We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know."1 Corinthians 8:1b-2, KJV

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
1 Corinthians 13:2, KJV

"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness . . . Therefore let no man glory in men . . . And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"
1 Corinthians 3:18-19, 4:6-7

"From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm."
1 Timothy 1:6-7, KJV

"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."
Proverbs 16:18, KJV

"For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
Luke 14:11, KJV

"Submit yourselves therefore to God . . . Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up."
James 4:7a, 10, KJV

"Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:"
1 Peter 5:6, KJV

Dear Saint, Your precaution is to wear masks etc and to follow CDC guidelines and guidelines the world tells you to do, Our PRECAUTION is to be careful not to offend God with unbelief, fear and Mistrust. And especially NOT to defame his character as the God who is unable to protect his people from plagues as they worship him together. God forbid. That is not our God. His truly obedient children Faith filled children will not catch plagues as they obey to gather and worship him. If you believe otherwise,its your choice but be it unto each one according to their faith. And another PRECAUTION is to LISTEN keenly to WHAT GOD is saying to do in these days. What God says..that is wisdom and life. To use the words stupid, silly etc to describe saints position of faith you disagree with only sounds like worldly carnality and anger and needs to be repented of brother. I will not say you are carnal, let God judge but your words sound, carnal, and angry and attacking. thereby not edifying or profitable to anyone. Does Not sound like it's truth coming from a heart filled with love and gentleness. May God open all our eyes. May repentance come.

Thank you Brother Bill. Praise God. I pray all my life and testimony will be submissive to these scriptures. I pray God continues to give me grace to take heed and be obedient to these scriptures all my life. As for receiving these right now, Jesus speaks truth but a bruised reed will he not break. I was just really wondering where are all the true Christlike men/brothers when a brother is using words like stink stupid etc to talk to a sister. Do you see that as right brother? Were you grieved by it? Did you address the brother with truth and warnings?It is one matter to correct a wrong doctrine of your think its wrong which in this case cannot be proven wrong biblically, but using words like stink stupid silly etc with a sister was not necessary or like Christ. I hope saints do not speak like that to our wives or children when we do not agree? This was my first experience to hear a christian brother who claims to be spiritual and able to judge christian doctrine or attitudes speak that way to a sister and I was shocked and my heart was wounded (for a few minutes though I will not get offended, since Psalm 119:165 is true, also Christs words of healing through some other saints brought peace and health) It truly was just someone abusing or belittling/bullying/dismissing a sister with no evidence and truly no excuse. It was not done in the right spirit nor influenced by right spirits. Correction in love is what Christ does when saints are wrong. Using words like stink stupid are what worldly unsaved liberals do to make people cower submit to their worldly liberal socialist etc beliefs. Im surprised only 1 or 2 brothers here saw anything wrong with a brother talking like that to a sister and to speak the truth that transforms to him? Well Praise God for brother Caleb. I know Joshua our Jesus and Caleb did so praise God. Did you our dear brother Bill see anything wrong with that? Are these scriptures meant only for the weaker vessels or for both? Again I do not understand why I only was addressed here brother but thank you for the scriptures. Let us not err or judge from appearances but make righteous judgements led by Gods Spirit, CHristian love and truth. I appreciate your concern and scriptures. I will always humble myself where truth of scriptures are presented, not just opinions.

Thank you Sister. Testimony was a blessing. Thank you also for reminding us about the personal losses of many. Deeply feel the pain of true members of Christ. Praying for Alan and Dina now and comfort and grace for those mourning in his body in these days. You are loved in HIm as is every other blood bought saint. Sincerely, your sister, M.

Maybe God is using this virus to shake up those who have been playing games, not really born again. The fact that they are fearful is evidence that they know not God! Giving them time to repent and give their life to Him before it is too late. May we have ears to hear for time is short and this is just the start to the shakings we are all about to see come upon the earth.

Amen Brother. Yes. Its time to get truly saved/born again if death is still so fearful and if backslidden its time to repent and return to our loving heavenly father who will in no wise cast us out while we are still alive. God give me/ grace us all grace to do so these last days.. Bless you Brother Steve.

Thank you brother. You shall know saints by their fruits. Your grace truth and love in Christ and peacemaking grace brought healing and grace."And the work of righteousness shall be peace, and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance forever." Isaiah 32:17

Also, after looking more closely, I realize I may have been confused. Is Sis Maggie who Greg’s OP references the same as sister Margie who posted in the thread twice thereafter?

Yes brother it is me.

Brother do you live in Minnesota? If you still do I thank God. We need saints of God there so glad you are there praying. May God save Minnesota. its quickly become a muslim stronghold. May God save many there and pour out his spirit there.

Sister Margie-

I do apologize for coming on too strong. It is nothing personal. I just very strongly disagree with your position and the theology behind it.

Just to be clear and to save everyone having to go back and look for it- I never called you stupid or silly or absurd etc- I am referencing a theological position not you personally.

Your statements like this are what I take strong objection to:

"If weaker Christians in faith feel they need masks in church there is no condemnation."

Don't you see how that sounds? You are essentially saying that people who decide to wear a mask in public places, based on their best judgment and hopefully with prayerful consideration, are weak Christians. Don't you see how condescending THAT sounds? You may think I sound condescending and I admit sometimes I can sound that way, but your statement takes the cake in that regard.

Might I submit that very STRONG Spirit-filled Christians may decide to wear a mask in public? And that the Lord may be 100% okay with their decision?

You seem to be suggesting this is not possible. You suggest that strong Christians would never wear a mask because to do so is offensive to God. I would say that is very presumptuous indeed.

How about we just let people do what they think is best, and not condemn them for it?

Dear Sister Margie, I think you need to calm down a bit.

Masks protect the other person, not so much you.

In our church we had people who did not want to come because we mandated masks and others would not come if we did not mandate masks!

I gladly wear a mask if it helps to set my brother at ease and he will attend our fellowship for that reason.

Did you not read what brother Alan shared? Did he get the bug because of lack of faith? He risked his life caring for his father! Should he have stood in the pulpit preaching despite of the virus he caught and endanger his fellowship?

Joseph and Mary were caught up in the Roman census and had to give birth at a very inconvenient time. Of course, one may argue, the census was totally pointless and King David was judged by God for this very reason.
Imagine Mary had refused to be registered by stating that she carried the Son of God in her womb, who was the King of Kings and not subject to the pagan Roman authority?

Why not bear a little inconvenience for the sake of my brothers health. Why make liberty and freedom an idol?

The scriptures I posted were for all. I just saw a lot of "I's" in one of your posts, as it appeared to me there was a lot of puffing up going on. Remember, we're ALL equal in God's eye's, and our works will never get us into Heaven, by Grace we get there. I'm personally grateful for all you're doing for the kingdom of God. Our testimony's should be more about what we were doing, before we ask Christ into our lives, not what we are doing now. The lost sheep need to know that once we were lost, if not more lost than they are. Yes, it's ok to bring up "some" of the things we are doing for Christ, to maybe help others with a direction, but ultimately, we should allow God to lead us. As for as me commenting on your question, is it right for a Brother to speak this way, I'm not going to answer that, why? because as a sinner, I don't cast stones, Prayer works better for me, and the person/persons I pray for.

Yes Amen 🙏🏻

What’s the point of making this a legal issue amongst ourselves, the body of Christ ?
This can be, and should be by believers, taken as a matter of faith not law. As a matter of conscience, if the spirit of the living God is leading you and this is your testimony in these matters, then who are we to judge another mans servant ? We too are servants in the same house with both a common foundation and master. (For me) we could be better utilized by the Lord if we simply keep our lamps lit, at the ready and be available to share what’s been shared with us, the Kingdom, serving to also provide margin by standing in the gap between the living God and a (spiritually) dead people, going both before Him on their behalf and to them on His behalf. For this we need mercy to be given to us to that we can give it to others. (In my experience) the more mercy we give to others, the more we receive from the Lord.
I’ve caught myself doling out mercy based on what (I believe) is due... but I should be giving it based on how much is available and not on how much I think they deserve. This is a very dangerous and subtle sin that has escaped me for years but now I’ve seen it in myself and the light of truth, His presence, convicts me and repentance follows. Now with new (heart) eyes to see, my desire is to go all in on every opportunity the He allows, the alabaster jar not jus poured out,... but broken at His feet and wasting it all on Him. Not presuming I have anything of worth to offer anyone save that which my savior gave me.
"Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have I give thee”
That is the Kingdom of God in action, and I believe it’s just as available to us as the man Peter quoted above. In some ways even more so and it’s because people like Cephas became persons like Peter. When he (Cephas) became a son he became Peter :)

This same transformation awaits all who consent to it, the Spirit and the Bride say "Come” !

Romans 8:19
For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are.

The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

In fact, all creation is eagerly waiting for God to show who his children are.

Shouldn’t we stir up the gift within us, trim our wicks and be ready in and out of season to answer His call to joyfully share with others that which has so bountifully been given to us?
Not struggling over the hurdles of "taste not, touch not’ regulatory agents, rather we are to fellowship in the spirit, not being carnal but spiritual with our ONLY committed position being to do the will of our Father, and in this way we can "walk in the light as He is in the light” and have fellowship through the blood 🙏🏻

I can amen that Fletcher.

Hi Greg and SI members
The problem brothers and sisters is that we are in a bind or a catch 22
Yes all the virus can do is kill our body which is to a certain degree ours but unfortunately it can also kill other people as well through us .So the virus has put other peoples lives in our hands .These lives are not ours to give or take and its only responsible to protect them by wearing a mask .
I dont think this is an issue of fear or boldness insomuch that if you wear a mask you are in fear and lack boldness or if you dont wear a mask you are fearing the Lord more than man and are being Bold.
Quite clearly the enemy has the Church in a lose bind and its up to the Lord and Saviour of the Church to break that bind .A challenge no doubt he has prepared for and will succeed at.

"We need to be bold in our day. What can a virus do but kill our body, but God can kill the soul in hell., So therefore we fear God and obey Him."

Hi All

Now for a few moments of Encouragement about 2020 For the USA
If you have time have a listen and I am sure you will be blessed especially if you are an American.
Sermon regarding 400TH Anniversary of the founding of America

2020 Ӣ The Year When We Will See Wonders | Carter Conlon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA8_VNLUrHE

Good words Staff.

Dear Friends on SI,

This is your brother Michael Liao. I pray during this pandemic season that you are all safe, well-fed, and in the state of peace. My prayer for all of us is that we remain in Christ Jesus, remaining present with Presence, and knowing Him as our all in all.

I write this to you all because I have noticed a lot of discussions lately on this forum with regards to masks and politics. But, I want to address us all as believers in the Lord because I am quite grieved over how we are communicating with each other on this forum. As a user on SermonIndex since 2011, I have been blessed by the sermons on this forum and some of the brethren here who post encouraging words for the saints. However, I am saddened to see that we are seemingly becoming more divisive over issues, some of which could be trivial, but some could also be serious and endanger the lives of people. We're debating about whether it's biblical or sinful to wear a mask during this pandemic, whether wearing a mask is muzzling our mouths to preach the Gospel, or it is a government conspiracy to shut churches down.

Brethren, if I may share a personal testimony of what the Lord has been doing in my life recently, I hope it may shed some light in how God can be glorified in the midst of this chaos we are living in. I'm 29 years old and I live with my family. My parents are in their late 60s. The reason I choose to wear a mask and gloves outside is that it is for the sake of my family. I don't want them to get sick. It is my way to honour my father and mother as Scripture says. I work as an Uber Driver and Uber has a policy where if I do not take a selfie of myself wearing a mask, I cannot drive. Also, there is a "No Mask, No Ride" policy for our customers. It keeps the drivers safe and it keeps the customers safe. I have to spray down my car with Lysol at the end of each shift. Why do I take these precautions? It's so that I can be careful and look out for the person next to me. It is to make sure that my neighbour, my parents, the people around me don't catch this virus. To look out for the OTHER. To look outside of ourselves, see the needs of others, and to meet them where they are.

Recently, by the Lord's grace I was able to share the Gospel with one of my customers on an Uber ride. He had said he's a Christian, but as I discerned more it seemed that he knew about Christianity, but not have Christ in him. I explained how the Gospel leads to the Resurrected Life of Christ to dwell in us and to live out His Life in us. The young man told me he had never heard of the Gospel that way before and seemed intrigued. I said it's the transformation of the Holy Spirit within a man's heart, not getting your bootstraps together to make yourself a Christian. I pray that the Lord saves this young man. But, the point is that we both wore a mask when this conversation happened. God is much bigger than our circumstances and we shouldn't be fretting so much about what the government is doing or not doing. We argue so often about how we will lose our freedoms and we seemingly put ourselves into a frenzy that is not really a frenzy. A mask does not muzzle my mouth to share the Gospel. It's just a piece of cloth meant to protect myself and others, but my voice is bigger than a mask. What saddens me is when we make blanket statements such as "Wearing a mask is being disobedient to God. It's unbiblical." Am I, your brother in the Lord, being disobedient for wearing a mask, even though the Lord had given me an opportunity to share His Son with a young man? It's awfully condemning to write someone off for....being careful. For looking out for my friends and family. For looking out for my customers. But, because I am wearing a mask, I'm automatically on the devil's team? Salvation is by grace, not by what you believe politically. What I am saying is that when we make these blanket statements, we could potentially hurt someone in the Body, and we'll have to answer to the Lord for every word that is spoken.

During the last few months, I have been able to fellowship with some brethren online. Though it seems less than ideal as gathering in a physical location seems better, we still benefit spiritually from each other. I have a brother in the Lord based out in California where every time we see each other on-screen, we're overjoyed to see each other and we simply pour Christ into each other. We both come out of those meetings being marked by the Presence of Christ. We're encouraged to seek Him more after our meetings. To behold His glory! That's what matters at the end of the day. To see Him who is our Head and Authority over all things and the Church.

My friends, if I may ask a pressing question, how much are we touching Christ daily? How much are we beholding Him? I believe the way we can check if we know Christ is by the way we communicate with each other in this Body. When we blast each other for our differences, we are not exercising the Words of Christ when He said, "They will know you are My disciples by the love you have for one another." (John 13:35) The greater the view of Christ, the greater our unity. The Centrality and the Supremacy of Christ does not ignore our differences, but rather transcends them. Meaning that though we may disagree, I see you not as a label to destroy, but a brother or sister worthy of love and respect because you and I are beholding the same Head. Perhaps what we are missing is the Centrality of Christ in our individual lives, which inevitably leads to "Christ in the Center" missing out of our corporate lives. It's easy to hide behind a computer screen and throw an insult at someone for disagreeing with you, which is why I don't post too often on this forum. I carefully pick my battles because I don't want my ego to get in the way and not benefit the saints. A heart that beholds Christ expresses Christ because out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

I believe that we as a Church should return to the call of the Centrality of Christ. His Pre-eminence and Grace are what matters at this point. The Vision of Him who reigns is what cuts the earthly divide in our egos and brings us into a unity that no man can manufacture apart from His Holy Spirit. Many of us here have internet, we have good food to eat, we have fresh water to drink, we live in the Western World, freedoms to enjoy, and much to be thankful for. Perhaps the reason why we get into these petty arguments and are restless is that we're so focused on what we don't have. We're not thankful for the things we have now. We're constantly ruminating about a future that has yet to exist. We're not present with our King and therefore we are not present with each other. We're often focused on outside problems and our rights that we miss the riches that have already been deposited into us through the Holy Spirit - The Riches of Christ. We're constantly projecting enemies that are not really there and are living in constant fear because of a perceived lack within ourselves. We argue because we don't realize we already can be content with the Living Christ in us. We've forgotten our sense of belonging. The Vision of Christ gives us that sense of love, acceptance, and belonging that satisfies our hearts and there would be no need to argue. There's no need to prove yourself. In fact, it leads to the greater embrace of His Bride as a whole. The Spirit takes us away from our ego selves and enables us to see the Imago Dei within each and every one of us collectively. Again, this is not to say that there will be no disagreements. At the end of the day, we are human and will be in error in some ways. But, through the seeing of Christ, we can engage each other in the expression of His Spirit - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, and self-control. As Paul says, "Against these things, there is no law...." Ask yourself, how does the Lord Jesus feel within you when you say a hurtful word to a brother or sister on this forum? You can mask it by saying, "Oh, but I'm just telling the truth as it is...", but what would the Lord say? Many times I could sense the Lord's grief on this forum because we divide over these petty things. He's grieved over us being mean-spirited.

We are living in precarious times, brethren. My prayer and hope for all of us is that we seek a greater unity among the saints through the Vision of Christ. Maybe it means for some of us to just simply take time away from this forum and to sit still. To be with Christ. To see Him in all His excellencies! "O God, you are my God! Earnestly, I seek You!" (Psalm 63:1). It is a call to return to our initial foundation: our sense of belonging which is our identity in Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:27, Galatians 2:20). You are all loved and accepted beyond measure. When we touch the Lord through our spirit, when we commune with Him, when we learn to enjoy Christ, there's a beauty in Him that surpasses all the petty things we fret over in life. Seeing Him makes us realize that there are things that matter to us in the now that won't matter in light of eternity. Our late brothers, Theodore Austin-Sparks and Watchman Nee both saw the revelation of Christ so deeply that it caused them to lay down their lives in service to the Gospel. With Watchman Nee, it cost him his life in a Chinese Prison. With T. Austin-Sparks, he preached the Revelation of Christ with such depth that he wrote The School of Christ and the Centrality and Supremacy of Christ. To this day, Sparks' ministry gives out his books for free to those who order them on his website. Why? Because Sparks saw that Christ was worth it! He believed that as he freely received the revelation of Christ, he would freely give his teachings away to people. Christ was worth more to Sparks than the money he could've made with his books. And here we are arguing about masks and whether it is biblical...God forbid that as we do this we are trifling with human lives in the process. We just saw what happened with Herman Cain and how he died of COVID-19 because he pridefully did not care for masks and social distancing. Yes, the Lord calls us to trust Him. But, trusting Him does not mean being presumptuous about things. The Lord has given us a brain to reason.

Though I believe it is safe for me to wear a mask, I believe this is a matter of conscience. This is between all of us and the Lord. We all have to answer to the Lord in the end for our actions - whether we have benefitted someone or hurt someone (knowingly or unknowingly). We all have to live with the consequences of our decisions. What bothers me more is how we treat each other as brothers and sisters on this forum regardless of where we stand. My hope is that as we engage these issues, there will be a speech that is seasoned with salt and an understanding that dispels our divisions. I want Christ to be seen. I want Him to be proclaimed and enjoyed by us corporately. May God turn us back towards Him because as we behold Him who is Light, we become light ourselves. As we behold His Love, we become His expression of love. And as we behold His Life, we become the expression of the Tree of Life Himself whose river runs into the spiritual deserts of our dying world. Love, Light, and Life - These are the 3 Ls that our Father calls us to in His Son. As we behold the glory of the Lord with an unveiled face, we are transformed into the same image as Christ from one degree of glory to another (2 Corinthians 3:16-18). Do we see Him? Do we know Him? And do we love Him? And if we love Him, do we love His people as the natural outflow?

I will end off by sharing these precious quotes:

"The longer we live, and the more we know, the more we shall be made aware of how little we do know, and how vast this Christ is!” -T. Austin-Sparks

"Christ is the Head and He is also the Body." -Watchman Nee

"I believe in church and I love the fellowship of the assembly. There is much we can learn when we come together on Sundays and sit among the saints. But there are certain things that you and I will never learn in the presence of other people. Unquestionably, part of our failure today is religious activity that is not preceded by aloneness, by inactivity. I mean getting alone with God and waiting in silence and quietness until we are charged with God’s Spirit." -A.W. Tozer

May Christ our Lord be glorified in us all! I love you all, brethren.

Your Servant in Jesus' Name,

- Michael Barnabas Hoy-Kuen Liao

Hi narrowpath,

Masks protect the other person, not so much you.

This is a very good point.

A person (like makrothumia's dad) can take precautions and even wear a mask each and every time they walk out the door. Yet, they can still contract COVID-19 almost as easily as if they weren't wearing a mask.

A mask isn't really going to protect you. If someone coughs or sneezes in your direction and an invisible particle lands on sensitive areas of your fact (or in your eyes), you're still very much at risk for contracting the coronavirus.

Rather, as most people are aware, the mask is meant to protect those around you. People who aren't infected often are unaware. A significant number of people (especially people under the age of 50) are asymptomatic -- meaning that they show no known signs of associated symptoms (e.g., fever, sweats, fatigue, cough, etc.).

Thus, by wearing the mask, you're protecting people around you from being infected. Some of those people might be at greater risk of death. So, by wearing the mask, you prevent yourself from inadvertently infecting or even killing them.

I am NOT saying that people should or should not wear a mask in public or among other believers. However, I do think that it is wise to be cautious and even take precautions.

We don't drink from a well that we know has bad water in it. We certainly wouldn't give that water to our spouse, children, family members or neighbors (especially if we know that water might potentially be deadly).

Doctors and researchers are still trying to figure out COVID-19. We know that the greatest risk is with people who are elderly or those who have preexisting health issues (particularly with their lungs or issues with clotting).

In our Silicon Valley county (Santa Clara County), we have roughly 2 Million residents. Our county has implemented extensive testing. As of the time of my writing, we have had a total of 9,913 cases. Of those, 191 have died. Most of those individuals who died were over the age of 70.

In fact, 45.6% of deaths were in people over the age of 80 -- and most of them had a comorbidity (a preexisting condition in addition to COVID-19). In fact, at least 82.1% (and possibly as high as 87%) of COVID-19 deaths in our county are the result of a comorbidity.

https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/dashboard-demographics-of-cases-and-deaths.aspx

So, I would certainly suggest that those individuals take precautions. We should be wise about these things.

Most importantly, we should all PRAY. We should pray for our families, the family of God and, of course, ourselves. We should pray for unbelievers too.

With this in mind, I would only urge each of you to pray about your decisions when it comes to COVID-19. Obviously, we should pray for the health of those around us. However, we should pray about what we should do when it comes to a mask.

On a personal level, I am conscientious when it comes to those at greatest risk. I live in the Silicon Valley. I still go to certain grocery stores. While I am healthy and my age doesn't place me at risk of death from COVID-19 (even if I contract it), I still don't want to spread it inadvertently to someone at risk.

A few months ago, my wife and I had hoped to travel to visit her family. Yet, we opted against it out of care for her parents. They are both strong believers. However, they thanked us for it.

At the same time, I think that we should be so detached from this world that we are ready to depart it at any time. This is true whether our final breath will be due to COVID-19, some other disease, an accident or simply old age.

We will all die at sometime during our lives. Some will die as early as the womb. Others will die when they are exceptionally old. Everyone else dies somewhere in between. With this in mind, life is short. As ambassadors of Christ, we have a responsibility to be a good steward who takes responsibility for the time and talents that God has given us.

I think that it is important to fellowship with believers -- and all the more as we see that day approaching (Hebrews 10:24-25). The early church met daily in one another's homes. That church was not quite so "institutional" or even formulaic and ecclesiastical as churches became later.

We can still meet together with other believers. When we do, I don't think that the mask is a sign of unbelief.

More importantly, I think that the greater problem in the church is that invisible "mask" that believers sometimes wear. This "mask" is the one that we sometimes wear to hide who we are on the inside (both during fellowship with believers or when we are out and about in this world).

Family of God, we shouldn't allow something as superficial as a physical mask divide us. Perhaps this is one of those issues of which Romans 14 speaks:

Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.

Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Romans 14:1-9 NASB

With heartfelt love, you are all in my prayers.

I read most of the comments in this thread.

mak:I'm sorry to hear you lost your father !

MichaelLiao: thank you for your comments and concern. I understand what you are saying.
I quietly gave this topic the title "christianity today..."
Might explain a bit more in other threads what I mean.

Michael-

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I seen a few quotes that seem timely in response to these posts.

"Was talking to a friend last night and he said, ' Where Im from (rural Kentucky) wearing a mask and social distancing is considered liberal'
Americans seem to be uniquely gifted at politicizing pretty much everything. May the church not follow the world in this way." - Taken from Shai Linne's twitter account.

Shai Linne also posted something that Martin Luther said during the bubonic plague.

"I shall ask God mercifully to protect us. Then I will fumigate, purify the air, administer medicine, and take medicine. I shall avoid places and persons where my presence is not needed in order to not become contaminated, and thus perchance inflict and pollute others, and so cause their death as a result of my negligence. If God should wish to take me, he will surely find me. But, I have done what he has expected of me, and so I am not responsible for either my own death or the death of others. If my neighbor needs me, however, I shall not avoid place or person, but will go freely. This is a God-fearing faith because it is neither brash nor foolhardy, and does not tempt God"
- Martin Luther

Hi Danstone,
MLK Sums up our prediciment perfectly and the best we can do at the moment,staff

Agreed.

https://www.cleveland19.com/2020/08/04/spread-like-wildfire-churchgoer-spread-covid-least-other-people-cases-family-gatherings-continue-rise/?outputType=amp

I know I don't have to wear a mask but I'm not going to flaunt my freedom in the face of others.

Where is the love of God toward our neighbors in all this craziness? People are fearful in these days, if my wearing a mask alleviates someone else's fears, why should I not love them enough to wear it?

My personal opinion is that the heart of men and women are being revealed, from Christians to non-Christians.

If meat offends your brother or sister, why would you want to eat it in front oh him?

That's my two cents in all this mess!! God bless us all as we realize what exactly true love is in this hour.
Lisa

This thread reminds me of a video I saw early this year. I don't know where I first saw it but Asia Harvest posted it too.

I share it not to take a position on masks in part because I am only required to wear one in a few places and I like most people around here mostly don't other wise. Rather I post it to remember what our mission is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG-EG1oe1Dk&feature=emb_title

REJOICE! =)
Mary

Is wearing Mask in Church against our faith?
The most important thing about worship is not the place of worship but whether we worship in spirit and truth (John 4). I do not believe wearing a mask will prevent someone from worshiping in spirit and truth. Let us focus on worshipping in spirit and truth which our Lord seeks.

Is wearing Mask against my faith?
Wearing a mask is prevention before cure. Prevention is better. Taking a preventive step is not against our faith. Most of us take vaccines to prevent deadly diseases. I believe in taking those. I believe God can heal me through those miraculous drugs. Hence I and my children have taken it. I do not believe it is against my Christian faith.

Jesus himself took preventive actions. He did not walk in blind faith.
John 7-1:- After this, Jesus went around in Galilee. He did not want to go about in Judea because the Jewish leaders there were looking for a way to kill him.

Is this not a preventive action taken by Jesus? It is commonsense not to go to a place where people are trying to kill you. Jesus lived by commonsense whenever it was not against God's will. But when God wanted him to go Judea, he ignored his commonsense and went by faith.

It is commonsense to wear a mask to prevent a disease that people believe is still deadly. I will come to the topic of why I still believe covid19 is deadly.

Am I a weak Christian if I wear a mask?

I do not believe I am a weak Christian if I wear a mask. I wear a mask if asked to wear, but I still believe my life is completely under God's control. Wearing a mask does not prevent my faith or reduce my faith. Jesus believed that his life was completely in God's hand, he believed that if he jumps from Temple top God will hold him as it is written in the scripture, yet he chooses not to jump and test God. I too choose not to tempt God by not wearing Mask. How is it even weak faith?

What about a Church that emphasis on wearing masks?

I do not believe anything is wrong with a Church emphasizing it. Think about this scenario. If there are people in the CHurch who are (so-called) weak in faith, and they are not comfortable attending the Church because others are not wearing masks, then why should they be prevented from attending Church? Why should my freedom to sit unmasked, affect the other who is not comfortable meeting with me? Is not this (so-called) weak feathered person affected by my freedom to no wear mask? I would rather ask the Church to wear masks thereby preventing this (so-called) weak faith believers from dropping off from Church! I believe this is reasonable just like how Apostle Paul asks us to not eat meat if it disturbs others.

What is true freedom?

Freedom in Christ is freedom from sin. Freedom from the law of sin and death. Not freedom from a mask or anything. I know people who do not take vaccines by faith. I know people who do not visit doctors in faith. I know people who do not take any medication in faith. I respect them but I see God's hand in everything. I see God's hand in the medications that I get. Without God's approval, nothing can happen to me. I believe in it.

Regarding Covid19-

People here post that the Covid19 death rate probability is very low. I agree it has reduced its severity. But it was not always the same. A few months back it was very severe. Even young people with no medical history were admitted with multiple organ failure due to COVID. I got the first-hand reports from believers working in the emergency unit. I know for sure they are telling the truth. I too know people who barely survived and that too being young and healthy.

But the reason I believe the severity of Covid19 has reduced is, due to weather change. In summer and the countries with high temperatures and tropical weather, the virus had very less effect. But it still spreads though. If we do not take any precaution in controlling now, then in winter it will show its true color. This winter will be very deadly for the USA.

I wish I could be wrong but my take is based on the evidence I see. So let us take it seriously and do everything to prevent its spread but not in fear because God is still in control.

Lysa and Sreeram, thank you for what you shared! ✝️

It has been imposed in some places that there can be no congregational singing to God allowed when meeting to worship God though. This would personally cross the line of my conscience as in "we must obey God rather than man." Does anyone else feel the same?

Whether someone wants to wear a mask or does not want to, may the Lord give all of us grace and tenderheartedness toward eachother. 💛

Romans 14:3 in the context of Covid could read:

"Let not him who wears a mask despise him who does not wear a mask, and let not him who does not wear a mask judge him who wears a mask; for God has received him" ✝️

Edited.

It has been imposed in some places that there can be no congregational singing to God allowed when meeting to worship God though. This would personally cross the line of my conscience as in "we must obey God rather than man." Does anyone else feel the same?

Thank you for your post sister. In India, there is a ban on religious gatherings from singing. Based on 25 years of being a Hindu, I know that only Christians sing in their gathering. For Hindus it is occasional. The law I believe was made just to restrict Christians. But as law-abiding Christians, we have to follow it.

In USA, if there is a scientific reason behind not to sing then I believe it can be followed. In most American Churches I attended, people do not sing but just hear the choir. You know very well, we sing in our churches!

Hi Followthelamb,
I dont think you can directly swap the scripture because eating or not eating as in Romans 14:3 does not lead to the spread of an infectious disease so its not a matter of grace

Romans 14:3
"Let not him who wears a mask despise him who does not wear a mask, and let not him who does not wear a mask judge him who wears a mask; for God has received him"

yours staff

Hi Greg/all ,

"This is a clear word that I believe much of it we can all easily agree with in these times. It is written from a godly sister with good testimony. I encourage brethren to read this post."

Going back to Gregs original post ,I dont think this is a word that we can easily agree on because as of yet their is not an easy way out of this predicament that we are all in, grappling with this catch 22 situation.On the one hand we dont want to pass on a deadly infection and on the other hand we want to assemble and praise God freely while also understanding the enemy of the Church is behind this situation pulling the strings of politicians like puppets...

Perhaps one of the things we can do which is one of the last things I want to do in the flesh because of their unrightiousness is to pray for our politicians that they see clearly yours staff

These masks have about as much to do with this virus as these protests do with George Floyd -

It says on the box,.. "Does NOT prevent spread or protect against Covid”

It’s like eating plastic fruit hoping to lose weight ... just silly .
Both N95 masks ONLY protect the wearer not others and only if worn properly which from what I’ve seen is as rare as Bigfoot.

Meanwhile there are demonic forces on the march openly with lil to no real resistance and one of the reasons why is those who claim the name of Christ rather spend their time debating nonsense ad infinitum ....

May God have mercy 🙏🏻

None of us would ignore the concerns of families whose children were exposed to unnecessary risk because another family knowingly brought a child with fever to an assembly simply because neither parent wanted to miss the gathering.

Who would not consider this "inconsiderate" and "unloving?" Who among us would argue that all the other families with children simply need to have faith and allow the other families with sick children to be able to worship?

As a person who witnessed the death of my father from the virus, had my own severe case COVID 19, and have still not tested "negative" yet, I understand people's concerns who are not comfortable being near me. I am convinced that I am no longer contagious, but they are not and I respect their concerns and limit myself for their sake.

As Sree has said, we consider it irresponsible to not take precautions when we know there is a risk that others could be affected by a condition we are aware of. Most church nurseries have a policy that parents are not to bring any child with a fever, and no one questions this.

When churches take similar precautions to protect their members, especially churches with elderly congregations, why is this not seen as prudent and loving.

This scripture comes to mind for this thread - "If anyone thinks he perceives something, he does not yet know as he ought." We are cautioned not to think beyond the measure of faith that God has granted us. Those who want to tell others what faith should look like for them should consider carefully whether they have gone beyond the faith God has given them.

Mak

or health crisis.... in the Kingdom of God ✝️

6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 🙏🏻

It is obvious that most people have strong opinions about the wearing of masks regardless of location. At the beginning I, too, was alarmed about the implications of this coronovirus, how contagious it is and deadly to boot. I personally sewed many and sold them - made good money, I may add.

However, in time, facts asserted themselves and have had a change of mind on this issue. The question I am now facing is do we trust God for our health? Is our life, our health in his control? Is God surprised when one of his saints succumb to this virus? Will he accuse them of irresponsibility for not taking care in protecting themselves against it? Difficult questions, I know.

Allow me to share a testimony - it only reinforces the conclusion to my questions.

A year ago our family of 27 persons planned for a family retreat in the Smokies. As the alarm of covid19 spread, I canceled this reservation because of the uncertainty of our ability to pull this off....In time things seemed to have settled down and our son rescheduled our retreat for the same time.

In the meantime we were praying much for this family retreat. A week before the time of our get-to-gether my husband fell ill - we believed he suffered from heat exhaustion - he had all the symptoms. We went anyways thinking a time of relaxing would facilitate recovery.

My husband did not improve so one of our boys took us to a clinic and he was x-rayed, blood drawn and tested for covid19. He got antibiotic and we went back to the retreat. Three days later thy called us telling us that hubby tested pos for covid19. Oh....will our children get it, too?? The son who took us to the clinic advised us to not tell anyone about the test results. In the meantime we kept tab on our tribe and no one else got sick. Nobody. Nobody wore masks and we did not do any social distancing. Was God in control?

I also tested pos for covid19 but neither my husband nor I were very sick - we have had colds and the flu virus that was a lot worse. Is God in control of our health? We are no spring chickens - 73 and 75 years old...

Can we trust God to keep us healthy until our mission is done? And if we fall ill, can we still trust Him? I cannot answer this for other people but these are questions we faced and it gets more serious the older we get. When God is in control he leads us to difficult situations so we are forced to either trust Him for its outcome or abandon our trust in him completely. The choice is up to us.

In short, we are living in times where our trust and faith is being tested and the testing will likely get more severe as time goes on.

Sandra

Why is it a matter of faith and not simply common sense?

How is this a spiritual issue?

and the just shall walk by ....

I'm sorry Sandra but what I say, I say with concern. You tested positive and you didn't say anything? That is completely irresponsible! You may not have got it bad, your family may not seem to have, but what if they are an asymptomatic carrier and ended up transferring it to someone else who does react to it badly?

God gives us wisdom to reason and at the moment there is a world wide health concerns and there is so much we still don't know about the virus at the moment. It is clearly hurting and killing others. I'm saddened to hear that you didn't say anything when you were found to be positive and I hope it doesn't harm or cost a life. I would be telling your family to get tested as you need to tell them and give them the option to look into it.

I believe God looks after his people but that doesn't mean we don't let others know if we have a potentially dangerous virus.

//and the just shall walk by ....//

True, but to quote Harry Callahan, "A man has*got* to know his limitations.”

That’s why God gave us common sense.

"With man this is impossible but with God all things are possible” - Jesus

"what is not of faith is sin” - Paul

Fletcher just to clarify-

What "faith” are you talking about- that God won’t allow you or your loved ones or your neighbor to get sick with Covid-19?

Freedom from plague and sickness and accident and criminal acts and natural disaster has not been the experience of true Christians for over 2000 years, regardless of the strength of their faith.

Hi Sandra (ginnyrose),

Thank you for sharing your story. I'm so happy that you and your husband are healthy!

I also tested pos for covid19 but neither my husband nor I were very sick - we have had colds and the flu virus that was a lot worse. Is God in control of our health? We are no spring chickens - 73 and 75 years old...

The issue with COVID-19 is that it effects different people differently. For instance, you and your husband undoubtedly have fewer preexisting health issues (particularly pulmonary or circulatory). Consequently, you were unlikely to die from it or even experience long-term pressing health concerns.

In fact, I've known a few people in our area who took the test and learned that they had the COVID antibodies. They had no idea that they had even been sick.

Most of the deaths and long-term health issues from COVID-19 are with people who are either: A.) Over the age of 80; and/or, B.) Have preexisting conditions.

There were individuals over 90 in a local nursing home that survived COVID-19 with relatively few symptoms. However, at that age, they are exceptional outliers rather than the rule.

In our Silicon Valley county (Santa Clara County) with around 2 Million residents, there have been a total of 208 deaths. No one under the age of 30 has died. In fact, just slightly over 15% of the deaths were people under the age of 60. Out of those, nearly all of them were deaths due to comorbidity (two or more causes of death of which one was COVID-19).

https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/dashboard-demographics-of-cases-and-deaths.aspx

Most of the deaths in our area that are NOT actual comorbidities are people who are over the age of 80 (and of which it skews heavily for those who are over the age of 90 -- accounting for more than 21% of all COVID-19 deaths).

In other words, the people who are primarily dying from COVID-19 are the very old and/or those who had already-existent health issues. The most complicit issues causing either death or long-term care complications are lung and circulatory issues.

The mask certainly does little to protect a person from COVID-19. It was never meant to protect the person wearing it. Rather, it was meant to help stop the spread of this coronavirus.

One of the most common symptoms of COVID-19 is a dry cough. The mask (plus the addition of "social distancing") is meant to diminish the spread impact of the most common way of contracting the disease. In other words, even if you have COVID-19 (and may be unaware that you have it), you're less likely to spread it if:

A.) You're at least six feet way from others; and,
B.) You're wearing a mask.

The mask obviously doesn't protect the wearer. However, it might prevent someone with COVID-19 (even if they don't know that they have it) from spreading it to those around them.

If one of those people around them has an existing health issue, a mask might prevent the person wearing it from inadvertently spreading COVID-19 and killing that person (or people).

I don't have a problem with going out in public places. I am not sick. My wife and I are both relatively young and fit. We don't have lung or circulatory issues and we both exercise regularly (I run more than 10 miles at a time several times per week). In fact, if the Lord wills and allows it, my wife and I will be hiking up to the top of Half Dome at Yosemite National Park next month. I received permits after applying on March 1st.

That said: I would be more concerned about being around someone else -- especially if they are older or have health issues. I'm also aware that some people are unaware of their own health issues. I don't want to inadvertently be the cause of someone else's pain or death.

In fact, I see COVID-19 for what it is: A coronavirus. The common cold is a type of coronavirus -- but one that isn't particularly deadly (unlike COVID, SARS or MERS).

I rarely get sick. I once went to a NASA clinic due to a severe sunburn that I received while at a conference in Puerto Rico (for which the doctor prescribed fresh aloe vera and baking soda baths). During college, I went to the university clinic because I got paint in my eye while painting signs for a symposium. Other than that, I haven't needed medical attention since I broke a bone while playing basketball during high school.

Yet, even during those few instances where I contract a common cold, I took measures to avoid spreading it. Covering my mouth when I sneeze (while suffering from a cold) is not a sign of a "lack of faith." It's simply caring about those around me so that I don't spread something that I have. It's putting the well-being of others before my own.

Like you said, it is all about trusting him. We aren't promised tomorrow. Our days -- all of them -- are in the hands of the Lord. Whether we live or die, our faith is in him.

By the way...

I wonder how you and your husband didn't spread COVID-19 to others at the retreat. Were others tested to see if they might have contracted COVID-19 yet remained asymptomatic? I know that some people have contracted COVID-19 yet, somehow, their spouse didn't contract it. The husband of one of my wife's coworkers contracted it. Yet, she and the rest of the family at home did not.

Brother Todd,
So you’re suggesting God doesn’t prevent or heal His children?

Brother Chris,
would you please respond to this precise question...
"who told you that?” Gen 3:11

Hi JFW,

Brother Chris,
would you please respond to this precise question...
"who told you that?” Gen 3:11

While I am keenly aware of the verse, I don't understand what you mean.

Are you equating the wearing of a mask with eating fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

The difference is that the Lord explicitly forbade Adam and Eve from eating from that Tree.

Are you arguing that the Lord God -- the Creator of all things -- has forbidden the people of this world from wearing a face mask meant to prevent the spread of a coronavirus?

As I pointed out, the face mask does NOT protect the wearer from COVID-19. It is simply a method of protecting those who might have it (without being aware) from spreading it to others.

Yes, God can prevent people from getting the disease. He can -- and does -- heal his children. However, there are many believers who still get sick too.

The Lord can certainly prevent things like gingivitis, bad breath and tooth decay. I still brush my teeth two or three times each day. Thankfully, I've never had a cavity.

//Brother Todd,
So you’re suggesting God doesn’t prevent or heal His children?//

Not at all. Whatever gave you that idea?

God does what He pleases. Sometimes it pleases Him to protect and heal.

And sometimes I expect it pleases Him when we don’t act like fools.

I’m not sure how I could make the request regarding the question more clear 🤷🏽”â™‚️
So I’m left with attempting to clarify but unsure it would help...

When you make statements as tho they are fact regarding mask-no mask and their effectiveness-ineffectiveness to mitigate the contraction and or spread of a viral or bacterial agent including but not limited to covid-19
I am asking , "who told you that?”

I only site the scriptural reference to qualify the biblical precedence of said question:)

Hope that helps?

" Not at all. Whatever gave you that idea?”

Your words and general disposition seems to suggest that when you ask to qualify what type of "Faith” , when the context of the scripture being referenced does so nicely 🤷🏽”â™‚️

You then say, " And sometimes I expect it pleases Him when we don’t act like fools.”

Which seems to suggest that if someone sees a situation differently that they are, in your eyes and potentially Gods, a fool ....
else why say such a thing ?
Is it not a thinly veiled and otherwise condescending attempt to discredit their perspective?

Sister Sandra gave her personal testimony regarding this and considering her history here on SI as a sincere and sober minded saint, why would we not accept it, giving her the benefit of the doubt if needed and prayerfully consider it?

FTR : the original post was to offer a scriptural basis for a faith based resistance to a secular mandate and unconstitutional overreach by our elected officials-
There are other "Faith based” exemptions regarding children’s vaccines with school mandates that are recognized by the states so this would not be an isolated incident or a first of its kind.
Mandates by definition are not law as there is no penal code being violated and therefore technically unenforceable under the law, tho they do present a pretext for harassment in the form of stereotyping, marginalization, vilification, etc...
The basis of all 3 founding documents- Constitution, Bill of rights, Declaration of Independence is, and as history records, the freedom to worship.
The recent forced closing of Churches, houses of worship, is an affront to these founding documents and their stated purposes.
Mask mandates are for many people an additional affront to the guarantees of said documents.

If masks are so effective then allow people who want to wear them to wear them and stop short of mandating that all conform or else face hefty fines and arrest. If so many people are scared to attend worship services and prefer to watch online, then simply allow them to do so and stop short of preventing those whom choose to practice their faith in person regardless of risk from doing so.

Please try to understand that for many people, they not only have the faith but also the constitutional right to attend and there is no clause in any of the documents that suggests that freedom is suspended if allot of people get sick ... but there are in fact amendments that prevent forced closures and even (technically) mask mandates - specifically the 14th amendment.

So the point for many people is it would be a sin for them to wear a mask out of fear of a disease or government control as it would not be an action of faith towards God but rather fear of man and as such a violation of their conscience.

Hope that helps :)

Perhaps I should explain why we were told to not tell the family we tested pos.

The public is so paranoid about this coronovirus unlike the cold or flu virus that stalks the country. People will shut down their business if they think one of their employees was in the presence of this corvid19. This causes a severe hardship for the owner and employees. Stats prove the ones who really get sick and die are those with serious health issues. It has also been proven that masks do little to halt its spread but can cause infections to the wearer. And if anyone of our group would have tested pos to this corvid19 it does not mean they would have necessarily got it from us.In fact we are not certain where we got it since we wore masks and others did, too. (After we got the diagnosis we did quarantine ourselves until we recovered.) And our children did not want to be told until after 14 days had passed. I have concluded a lot of what we were told initially is bologna. Now, how one does obey the law and yet be sensible? This is the issue posted in the OP.

Me thinks that with all the focus on health - don't eat this or that because it is not healthy only to be told later they were wrong - does more to promote paranoia then actual health. Do we believe our times are in the hands of God or are we in total control apart from God?

Sandra

Christopher,

In answer to your question....I believe this family retreat was protected by God. We did not know that my husband was infected with it when we went - we thought he was suffering from heat exhaustion and needed some time to rest, relax to get over it. But it did not happen. We had prayed earnestly about this family retreat for a month prior and so believe God was in charge. All of us can look back and are in awe at how God protected everyone else - our family needed to witness this power of God over them.

Is there a lesson here? It boosted my faith and trust in God and forced me to take the alarmists theories with a grain of salt.

Sandra

Christopher,

This article I read the other day may explain why Sandra and her husband did not spread the COVID.

(And yes Sandra, God is in complete control.)

"SEATTLE - A new report from Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center is giving researchers a better understanding of how and when person-to-person transmission of COVID-19 occurs, with findings showing that 80% of those infected will not spread the virus, laying the blame of transmission largely on gatherings.

The preliminary research, conducted by epidemiologists and infectious disease physicians, shows that people with COVID-19 only shed enough viral load to be contagious for a brief period of time: one to two days.

These brief periods when an infected person is most contagious is known as super spreading, and researchers believe that it is now driving the pandemic.

However, that two-day period when a person is most contagious and likely to spread the illness often occurs before the person is exhibiting any symptoms, meaning they are most likely to infect others before ever knowing they are sick.

"The ethical thing to do as an individual is to walk around with the assumption that you’re infectious and contagious, and that it’s your responsibility to protect the public,” said Dr. Joshua T. Schiffer, an infectious diseases physician and author of the research.

Super spreader events such as weddings, concerts and family gatherings have made headlines in recent days as the U.S. nears 5 million cases.

One of the first known super spreading events occurs in Skagit County in March at a choir practice attended by 61 people. Eighty-seven percent of the people who attended the practice contracted COVID-19, and two died as a result.

"Super-spreader events come from when people are shedding virus at their peak,” Schiffer said. "They have to show up in a crowded place, and they have to do so when they are shedding at a high viral load."

The findings lead Dr. Dan Reeves, a research associate who co-authored the report, to believe that early intervention that reduces the viral load and rapid testing may be key to stopping transmission.

These new findings are concurrent with another recent report from the Institute for Health Metric and Evaluation which predicted that the Evergreen State will need broader mask compliance by November in order to avoid more nonessential business shutdowns and stay-at-home orders."

Found here:
https://komonews.com/news/coronavirus/fred-hutchinson-study-80-of-infected-people-do-not-spread-covid-19

REJOICE! =)
Mary

//Hope that helps :)//

It does- and in fact I can’t disagree with anything you have written.

As I have indicated in the past I do believe there has been great overreach for political and other expediencies.

However that belief does not mean the virus does not exist.

What has bothered me is that in this thread there has been an undercurrent of suggestion that mask-wearing evinces a lack of faith and that only non-wearers truly trust God.

I guess if it could somehow be proven that Christians have not spread the virus I would be more on board with the idea that Christians shouldn’t wear masks. But I do believe Christians are spreading the virus just like everybody else.

But I agree with you- if folks want to assemble unmasked in church, more power to them. I am more concerned about those they may infect when they stop at the store on the way home.

Hi JFW,

When you make statements as tho they are fact regarding mask-no mask and their effectiveness-ineffectiveness to mitigate the contraction and or spread of a viral or bacterial agent including but not limited to covid-19
I am asking , "who told you that?”

I apologize for the misunderstanding. Perhaps I should have been clearer. I am not using those claims (in terms of death rates or the efficacy of a face mask) as indisputable truths. I am citing collected data, peer-reviewed research and observational studies.

The death data comes from Santa Clara County Public Health. That data is gathered from hospitals (public and private), clinics (public and private), the coroners' office and testing programs (usually in conjunction with the county and local towns/cities).

The efficacy of the masks is based upon studies that existed before the outbreak of COVID-19. Coronavirus is not "new." The common cold is a type of coronavirus -- albeit much weaker. SARS and MERS are also types of deadly coronaviruses. COVID-19 is a particularly contagious, harmful and deadly form of coronavirus. These studies aren't new. If you go to scholar.google.com (a Google Scholar search engine that primarily considers only results from academic, professional or peer-reviewed journals), you can even toggle your results to only come even before the onset of COVID-19.

I also want to say that it is good to be skeptical -- particularly if that skepticism is based upon an understanding of fact).

Despite what some areas of "science" claim, skepticism is important (hence the need for peer review). If you look at the comments section of a peer-review science, engineering or medical journal, you'll often find strong debate. Those debates can be extremely divisive -- even more than what you'd see in a forum of believers arguing over the controversial topics that believers often seem to argue about.

One of the interesting (pardon the pun) side effects of such debates is that they dispel the oft-claimed myths of "conspiracy" among researchers. So, skepticism is healthy and often welcomed by researchers. Yet, at the same time, the skepticism that is healthiest isn't built upon "us versus them" mentalities, circular reasoning or confirmation bias.

So, in answer to your question (i.e., "Who told you that?"), it is no single individual or group. I've simply cited data from our county (that, in turn, came from many hospitals, clinics, etc.). I've also cited the findings of what other researchers have found in regard to face masks.

Again: I am NOT advocating for or against face masks. Hopefully, that has been made clear. I am simply saying that even well-made or clinical face masks are NOT particularly effective in preventing the wearer from contracting COVID-19. Yet, they can (*emphasis on the word "can") be effective in preventing the person wearing it from spreading COVID-19 (especially if they're unaware that they have contracted it and are at the time pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic).

The reason for this is that masks can prevent most droplet particles from the dry cough associated with COVID-19 from spreading as readily. This, of course, is even more helpful if it is used in conjunction with at least three feet of distance from another person.

If you'd like me to cite the specific studies, I can do this. However, I think that a quick search via Google Scholar would reveal the same research articles.

Most importantly, I should make the point that I am NOT advocating on behalf of any or all findings from researchers. I am just saying that this is, well, the finding of researchers. Other things are essentially common sense verified by research (such as covering your mouth when you sneeze to prevent spread of a common cold -- a type of coronavirus).

On a personal note, we often utilize the results of such research in our daily lives whether we know it or not. If you brush your teeth with toothpaste, use antibacterial dish/bar/hand soap or if type on a computer, there has been quite a bit of peer-reviewed research that went into those things.

I hope that this clarifies what I was saying just a bit.

Hi Sandra (ginnyrose),

Thanks for the update. That is very interesting (to say the least). The husband of one of my wife's coworkers was diagnosed with COVID-19. This was confirmed via two tests. Yet, no one else in their family home was diagnosed.

I know of a couple of studies trying to determine why this might be. It could be genetic. For instance, I have the CCR5 Delta 32 gene variation. This completely inhibits me from contracting things like smallpox, bubonic plague or even AIDS.

One of the studies was trying to see if a CCR5 gene variation or something similar might prevent such an individual from contracting coronaviruses like COVID-19, SARS or MERS.

At the same time, I certainly believe in the power of God to answer prayers -- or to work (supernaturally) on behalf of those who pray.

In your case, that sounds quite miraculous! Praise God! Were other family members tested to verify that they didn't have the antibodies?

Hi Mary (SHMILY)!

Thank you for the article. I looked up the research (currently pre-published) mentioned in the article. It seems like it will be very interesting!

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.07.20169920v2

Thank you and that indeed does help to provide context for your aforementioned statements.
Also I can appreciate your congenial approach to this subject and have found the research data to be quite conflicting as well. It has been allot to source and vet for me (and I’m sort of a research nerd)... interestingly allot of the available data has "sponsors” that often have political ties wether financially or ideologically and that makes parsing out the findings more of a challenge, at least for me.
Personally I don’t have a "position” on masks in a medical capacity, as i haven’t had a reason to form one and doubtful I will ever need to. Having said that, I do have a position on "mandatory mask requirements” for a host of reasons some of which have been listed in this thread. At the end of the day, (I believe) if we’re honest with ourselves, meaning self-preservation is off the table, the hype around this phenomenon is being utilized to cause divisions for the sake of exploitation, wether politically, financially, socially, ideologically or all of the above. There were several "influencers” wearing masks a year before covid and I don’t believe in "coincidence” - Also these masks make it far easier for criminal and even terrorist activity to occur as they defeat most opportunities to identify individuals who are or have engaged in said activities. Again, in my mind, not a coincidence where governors, mayors, etc... have allowed large assemblies of people to act out in criminal and even murderous behavior with virtual immunity in that they are (if arrested at all) usually released without charge ... all while these same elected officials are forcing churches to close and are in fact charging pastors and churchgoers as criminals !?? I’m gonna have to say no to that and every (including masks) attempt to "normalize” this ungodliness. To be completely honest, I don’t believe those whom are mandating masks actually believe in their efficacy and for the most part utilize them as a form of control over well intend, albeit misinformed, people. This isn’t the first time masks have been required in that end and it’s an interesting topic to dig into and the similarities of the groups ideology is astonishing as it is ungodly.
If you feel so inclined there is an interview I stumbled across years ago from the ‘80’s with a KGB defector named Yuri Bezmenov (13 min or so- easily found online) where he outlines the steps of a communist takeover without bombs or bullets- where Marxism is utilized,tho ultimately discarded, thru ideological subversion. It has 5 steps and we seem to be engulfed by it presently.
Also I found a pdf of a meeting from ‘09 where our current events were mapped out in alarming detail including, you guessed it, masks and temperature checks. This meeting was conducted by David Rockefeller and is titled "Scenarios for future technology and international development- its a 54 pg document and the part that is presently applicable began on pg 18 and was entitled "Lock Step” tho the entire document is informative regarding the ungodly attempt at global control... again if you’re interested-

Our Lord says to be "as wise as serpents yet as harmless as doves”...
(for me) this places an importance on being aware of the schemes being utilized to undermine the Kingdom of God from being advanced. This is (for me) an imperative as deception abounds and "even the elect” ... so having the enemies "playbook” in the above mentioned forms has really helped me to not get distracted by the tactics of our common enemy which (for me) have been consistently increasing in number and volatility.

Knowing this is long and somewhat off the main subject, I’d like to touch on one more aspect of this situation we're all facing-
In Luke 18 Jesus makes a very telling statement in question form, "will He
find faith on the earth?”
This is very sobering to me and the subsequent parable opens it completely both as a measure and a warning- because (for me) at the end of the day it matters little where, when or how I die,... what matters is that He gets glory from it, full stop. In my understanding of scripture, this can only happen if my life and most especially my death is one of faith, not according or acceptable to me or my pet doctrine, but according and acceptable to Him. I believe the scripture marks out unquestionably that this is a heart matter and as such, a matter of faith- wether it’s masks, vaccinations, or otherwise,... everything is a matter of faith. So when I ask "who told you that?” it’s literally the question I ask myself about most things and if it’s not He who told me that, then no matter how practical, how beneficial, how desirable.... it is a lie- for the devil has been lying from the beginning and when he lies he speaks his native language and since he is the "god of this world” and will "deceive the whole world” it is incumbent upon us to be certain that the source of our information is ultimately from our Lord as every good and perfect gift comes from Him- James 1:16-17 .

Ok this got way long and that wasn’t my intention tho honestly there is so much more to say on this subject because it’s all connected to either the Kingdom of light or darkness with no coincidence nor unemployed occurrence... tho this is where I’ll stop and please forgive me for the digression. 🙏🏻

///So when I ask "who told you that?” it’s literally the question I ask myself about most things and if it’s not He who told me that, then no matter how practical, how beneficial, how desirable.... it is a lie- ///

That sounds great, but practically speaking how far do you take it?

"If you are born again of the Spirit of God, you are the will of God, and your ordinary common sense decisions are God’s will for you unless He gives you an inner check. When He does, call a halt immediately and wait on Him.” ~ Oswald Chambers

I like the way OC puts this because it lines up with our practical experience. I don’t ask God if He wants me to eat oatmeal or Grape Nuts for breakfast- I eat what I feel like eating unless I get a sense that God wants me to eat one or the other. Haven’t had that sense yet that I can recall.

What is something of a mystery is why some Christians feel God wants them to wear a mask as a sign of neighborliness, while others think wearing a mask is like signing their soul over to Satan.

Does God really deal with people so divergently?

Obviously He must, which unfortunately is why there is biting and devouring over this issue.

I love OC and literally jus finished reading a devotion by him a few moments before I read your reply-

Ok so regarding the "practicalness” of asking "who told you that”, it mostly misses the point 🤷🏽”â™‚️
If we look at the context in which the Lord originally asked this question it was to expose the source of the information. The "practical” thing to do was to hide themselves, common sense even... but this particular common sense action was based on a lie that was not from God, hence the question "who told you that” -
(For me) God obviously knew whom had lied yet He asked them anyway,...
This being the second question of three consecutive questions He already knew the answer to. This (for me) illustrates His mercy and desire for confession and repentance 🙏🏻 As such it serves us well as a "self-check” mechanism to source the information we consume and are conformed into.
His word IS our daily bread, the word of life, and when we are intentional about sourcing and consuming it we are conformed into the image of the Son :)
Now that is not only practical, it’s genius is its simplicity. Honestly I hope to become so likely to do this that it affords Him the right to literally direct my steps. Sometimes I’ve found He tests me and doesn’t answer so quickly and I must wait upon the Lord to direct my steps otherwise I make myself "god” and do what is right in my own eyes effectively working to get on the "good side” of the wrong tree much like Adam or Martha. Even then the Lord is gracious and merciful and uses even my missteps to the end of drawing me into a more intimate fellowship with Him.

To be clear, there are far too many times I rely on my own wits or opinions to decide a thing and in each case He is being cheated out of which He shed His blood, namely His right to command that which He purchased.
If we are commanded to "seek ye first the Kingdom of God” then should we not seek and sometimes wait for the Kings’ decree on a matter?
Isn’t that what happened in the garden, where they didn’t seek the Lords word but were beguiled by the subtle lies of another ?
Deception is a grave danger for everyone and the interesting thing about being deceived is often when we are, we don’t know it - so what’s to do?
This has provided me an opportunity to guard against it, along with the full armor, yet still I fail His grace all too often and that is on me and I must repent otherwise I perish -

Interesting to note that A&E fashioned coverings (fig leaves) as a result of believing a lie and I’m sure to them, it was quite practical -
I wonder how many of us actually asked the Lord if we should wear a mask and waited for Him to answer,... or did we allow our pragmatic self-preservation mechanism (flesh) to have its say? 🤔

Should I ask God if I should wear a hat or sunscreen to protect my head from sunburn when working in the yard? Why would I do that? I already know that long exposure to the sun causes sunburn. That said I probably use less sunscreen than I should.

I honestly don’t see the difference between that and a mask to protect from virus.

Yet the latter seems to have taken on a spiritual component while the former does not.

Why is that? No one has yet answered that question.

To frame it more plainly, what is the difference, spiritually speaking, from taking precautions against one known danger (sunburn) and taking precautions against another known danger (Covid-19)?

Again it seems you’re missing the point...

Perhaps this could be of something help-
Who told Martha to go in the kitchen in the first place ?
Did Jesus?
Then why did she believe she wasn’t in need of instruction like Mary?
What was the difference between their personal dispositions as described in scripture and how did this affect their ability to see and know their need of Jesus as a savior?

So I’m suggesting you may be walking past the point and asking a question that is itself based on a presumption...

Also just curious, would you support a forced mandate that everyone had to wear sunscreen when they walked outside of their homes?

Indeed Fletcher- I must be missing the point very badly (sorry for my denseness on this issue) and I have no idea what Mary and Martha have
to do with it. Jesus was upset with Martha because she started berating her sister for sitting at his feet instead of helping her. There is no indication that Jesus said anything about Martha and her preparations until she chided her sister- by complaining about her to Jesus in Mary’s presence.

//Also just curious, would you support a forced mandate that everyone had to wear sunscreen when they walked outside of their homes?//

Absolutely not- nor am in favor of a mask mandate.

What I am in favor of is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” and "love your neighbor as yourself.”

If a person doesn’t mind if other persons potentially infected with a deadly virus breathe and cough and sneeze all over them, I would say that’s a little strange.

The golden rule is intended for reasonable, normal people, not masochists.

Had typed out a thoughtful reply but the Lord has me delete it in favor of OC devotional from this morning...

" Jesus says a tremendous amount to us that we listen to, but do not actually hear. And once we do hear Him, His words are harsh and unyielding.”

Isn’t that the truth.

I go to meet my brothers and sisters in need. I help them as much as I can. I also host needy believers in my home. I trust in God's protection. But I will never want anyone to hide the fact that they are tested +ive for COVID and still try to meet with me. It is not unbelief but prevention. Also, it is Government mandatory to stay at home if we are sick, I see it posted along the highways. Still, someone keeping it secret and behaving normally is clearly disobedience to government and hence a sin to me. No matter how much they argue it as a matter of faith it is not one to me.

I know a sister who was influential in bringing me to Christ. She was married to a believer in her young age who was HIV+ive. But he hid this fact from her and then died 3 years after marriage due to the virus. But God miraculously prevented her from getting infected. Still, we all will agree that what this guy did to her is a sin. He was a believer too and it was a Church wedding. He should have told about his infection. How different is Covid19 infection from HIV? Please do not bring in stats that less young people are dying etc. I have seen first hand report of people coming with multiple organ failures without any prior health issues at a young age.

If a person hiding covid+ive is right then this believer hiding HIV+ive is also right. But no one in their right mind will say that the guy did right by hiding his HIV Virus.

Question: Were other family members tested to verify that they didn't have the antibodies?

Not that I am aware of. They did not want to be told if we tested pos until fourteen days had passed. Except for one son and the medical clinic nobody else knew it we had it. (It was hard to isolate ourselves from others.)I kept tabs on them to see how they were doing and nobody felt bad or sick. They were afraid if their bosses would have learned they were exposed to it they would have been furloughed for two weeks. The miraculous thing is there are 27 of us and nobody wore masks or did any social distancing except my husband did keep his distance - some.

Our family needed to witness the hand of God and this was an awesome demonstration of it. Some were in awe when they learned our situation and in turn theirs as well!

Sandra

Mary!

This is very interesting! My husband started with his symptoms a week before we left for our family retreat.

Amazing....

Sandra