Daniel's Prophetic Visions

Hi David (Doc),

You wrote in another thread:

Just last Wednesday, we finished going through the book of Daniel in our home group. If you study this book and have questions etc., I would be glad to share with you in any way I can. I come from a post-trib premillennial point of belief.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=63348&forum=35

So, I am starting this thread to discuss Daniel’s prophetic visions.

You wrote:

The return of the exiled nation to the land and its eventual messianic redemption at the end of this evil age was a prominent theme of the prophets. This end-time scenario is impossible without a Jewish presence in the land. Therefore, the latter-day return of a Jewish populace to the region known today as Palestine (formerly Canaan) and the reemergence of the modern state of Israel is one of the most significant prophetic signs to transpire since the resurrection of Christ.

Yet Daniel did not mention a second return of the Jews in his 70 Weeks prophecy. Much appreciate if you can give other scripture predicting this event.

Also,

Daniel's 70th week cannot have already occurred since it ends with the resurrection of the dead which occurs at Christ's second coming.

Are you referring to Dan.12:2?

Thanks and Blessings

I'm not trying to ignore you. I've just been busy. I'll try and make a reply soon.

Thank you.

No worries, David. Thank you.

SCRIPTURE FOR THE SEVENTY WEEKS PROPHECY IN THE BOOK OF DANIEL

DAN. 9:24-27

NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE (NASB):

Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

NEW KING JAMES VERSION (NKJV):

Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.

KING JAMES VERSION (KJV):

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

YOUNG’S LITERAL TRANSLATION:

Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.

And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.

And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations.

And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.

BRENTON SEPTUAGINT TRANSLATION:

Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out the iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy.

And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.

And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.

And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

"In an attempt to analyze and interpret prophecy correctly, many have employed the supposed necessity of transferring prophecy out of its original Jewish context into a more symbolic and spiritualized fulfillment in the Church. The same has been done with Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks. The rule seems to be that the original literal Jewish context must be rejected if any progress is to be made in prophetic interpretation."

"No interpretation of this prophecy which ignores the Jewish focus should be seriously considered. The nation of Israel was Daniel's concern at this point and the subject of his prayer. In the introduction to the prophecy Gabriel speaks of "your people and your holy city" and the "holy of holies" (qodesh qadashim), which is clearly and always in the Old Testament a reference to Israel's tabernacle or temple. The prophecy throughout employs such terms as "Jerusalem," "the city," "the sacrifice and the oblation," and "the many." The people and the city under discussion could not be more obvious, namely the nation Israel and her capital city, Jerusalem."

(From the article, "Daniel's Seventy Weeks - an Historical and Exegetical Analysis" - Fred Zaspel - 1991)

I concur with Brother Zaspel, and this is the view I take in any discussions regarding the book of Daniel or any of the other prophets.

Thanks. PTL.

//The people and the city under discussion could not be more obvious, namely the nation Israel and her capital city, Jerusalem."//

Does not a past fulfillment meet this requirement?

"The fulfillment of many prophecies of both testaments, depends upon the return of the Jews to their own land. And their return has been established by scripture beyond successful contradiction. And their return is plainly implied in these prophecies which speak of "the temple," "the holy place," "the sanctuary," "the daily sacrifice," etc., in connection with the Second Coming of Christ. Daniel 12:11 contains a prophecy of this kind, and reads thus: "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." This was spoken to Daniel about 534 years B.C. And in this verse we are informed, that 'the daily sacrifice shall be taken away:" if this taking away is yet future, the Jews must return to their own land, in order to re-establish it.; for the daily sacrifice has not been observed at any time since in the last 1800 years. Now, this taking away of the daily sacrifice NEAR THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST (emphasis docs), implies its re-establishment after the present time. The daily sacrifice will be taken away NEAR THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST (emphasis docs)."

(P.S.G. Watson - 1880)

I concur and agree with Watson and take this view in discussions regarding the book of Daniel and the 70 weeks prophecy.

Blessings.

//The people and the city under discussion could not be more obvious, namely the nation Israel and her capital city, Jerusalem."

Does not a past fulfillment meet this requirement?//

No, I don't believe so.

The best that can be said regarding the past is that types and partial fulfillments have occurred while a exhaustive and complete eschatological fulfillment still lies in the future. Daniel's overall context is speaking of events at the "time of the end" (Daniel 8:19; 11:35, 40;12:4,13.) "Time of the end" is a Hebraic phrase speaking of the very last eschatological events that occur at the culmination of this present evil age.

Also, these events end in the resurrection of the dead which occurs at the second advent of Christ. I remain positive that has not occurred yet.

If the abomination of desolation was the statue of Jupiter in the temple in Jerusalem placed there by Antiochus Epiphanes, why did Jesus prophesy about it in the future tense? Was He prophesying backwards?

Nigel-

Compare these two versions of the same event:

"Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Matthew 24:15-16

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luke 21:20-22

Jesus is talking about the same event in these two verses- the sacking of Jerusalem by Roman armies. This pagan army WAS the abomination Jesus was talking about. Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the temple during the time of the Maccabees by sacrificing a pig on the altar and the general Titus destroyed the temple and sported the lamp stand through the streets.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/abomination-temple/

Oops. He was speaking to Nigel and not me. So I deleted my reply. Sorry.

David-

Did Jesus come in judgment on Jerusalem in 70 AD?

Old Testament imagery helps us see that the Olivet Discourse did come true. Jesus likely used His "coming on the clouds” as a figurative image of God’s judgment, just as the prophets did (see Isa. 19). It seems best to see Jesus in the Olivet Discourse predicting His "coming” through the Roman army in 70 a.d. to judge Jerusalem for rejecting Him. This is especially true as Jesus said this would occur in their generation.

And””- Isn’t it rather ridiculous that you are questioning someone’s heart because they don’t agree with your interpretation? Lots of folks don’t agree with your interpretation. When you start questioning "hearts” it smacks of desperate pleading.

Besides you already warned Jade that there would be disagreement on this topic and when someone disagrees you question their heart.

I don't question your heart even though I think you are wrong- why do you question mine?

Note I deleted that post and felt better for doing so. I am the first to admit I don't always say things right. So I'm sorry for any slight on my part.

Yes, judgment fell on Jerusalem in 70 AD but if just that was what Christ was referring to when He answered the question, "What will be the SIGN OF YOUR COMING and the END OF THE AGE?" His coming again will be at the end of the age which is when the dead are resurrected. That is so obviously what Christ was referring to.

When did the Roman armies or Titus exalt themselves above all gods and declare that they were God and that worship should be to them alone (Daniel 11:36; II Thessalonians 2:4)? If Titus and his armies placed a statue of a god in the temple of that day, then it proves they were not saying we and we alone are god and demand that only we be worshipped. If they believed that they would not have placed statue of a god besides themselves in the temple.

Earlier, even Antiochus Epiphanes issued a coin with Zeus on one side and his (Antiochus) inscription on the other side. So even Antiochus didn't believe He was god alone. He was still mindful of Zeus and the other so called gods. If he believed he was the only God why did he place a statue of a god besides himself in the temple of that day? The latter day, "time of the end" Antichrist will exalt himself above all gods and declare Himself to be God alone. The plainness of the language does not need reinterpretation.

More importantly, were the dead resurrected in 70 AD? Christ's coming again has always been associated with the time of the physical resurrection of the dead.

The sign of your coming and the end of the age is plain uncomplicated language. It is as plain as plain can be. It speaks so loudly in its plainness that it doesn't need reinterpreatation so as to connect it with events not even related to the end of the age. To see it in its plain meaning and to make it into something else entirely enters the realm of, "Has God really said?" in my opinion.

I know replacement theology has Preterism has as one of its foundations. So, if you believe Israel has no prophetic significance in the events at the end of the age and it's all in the past, then go with it, I just don't believe it. I hold to the view that Christ left Israel and will return to Israel. That does not in any way mar or disfigure the reality of the one new man in Christ. Anyway, please feel free to comment all you desire to. We can be civil even if I had a lapse and used poor wording.

Todd, you said:

"All can be answered by the real person Antiochus Epiphanes who profaned the temple and placed a statue of Zeus (Jupiter) on the altar- the abomination of desolation."

It can't be both, and it can't be what Antiochus Epiphanes did, because Jesus speaks about it in the future tense.

Nigel- Jesus is talking about 70 ad.

Daniel in that passage is prophesying about what Antiochus did during the time of the Maccabees.

David wrote:

//His coming again will be at the end of the age which is when the dead are resurrected. That is so obviously what Christ was referring to.//

I agree that Jesus’s second coming will immediately precede the resurrection.

The Olivet Discourse does not mention the resurrection

If you are referring to Daniel 12:2, there is good reason to believe that does not reference the final resurrection of all persons. The OT contains examples of figurative resurrection (eg Ezek. 37).

And check out Simeon’s statement when baby Jesus was presented in the temple: "Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Luke 2:34-35

That sounds quite a lot like Daniel 12:2 but Simeon is not referencing the final resurrection but rather salvation of those who trust in Messiah and the fall of those who do not.

Daniel 12:2 says "many” shall be raised (just like Simeon’s statement); clearly in the final resurrection all will be raised.

/The Olivet Discourse does not mention the resurrection/

But the Olivet Discourse ends in the second coming of Christ which has always been the blessed hope of the Church. (Matt 24:29-31). This second coming is what Christ was asked about - what will be the sign of your coming. When Christ come the resurrection occurs.

/If you are referring to Daniel 12:2, there is good reason to believe that does not reference the final resurrection of all persons. The OT contains examples of figurative resurrection (eg Ezek. 37)./

What good reason is there? Can you provide any quotes or references as those who hold that it doesn't pertain to the resurrection of all persons? Daniel 12:2 is preceded by Daniel 12:1 which describes a final time of trouble and distress for the nation. So the final tribulation is followed in close time proximity by the resurrection in 12:2.

But again, what good reason is there to believe it does not refer to the resurrection at Christ's coming.

/And check out Simeon’s statement when baby Jesus was presented in the temple: "Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Luke 2:34-35

That sounds quite a lot like Daniel 12:2 but Simeon is not referencing the final resurrection but rather salvation of those who trust in Messiah and the fall of those who do not.?/

So how is that relevant? Bearing in mind that the resurrection of the dead was always associated with the coming of the Messiah and the end of the age, what dead do you believe were raised in 70 AD?

/Yet Daniel did not mention a second return of the Jews in his 70 Weeks prophecy. Much appreciate if you can give other scripture predicting this event./

Regarding the return of the Jews to the land, at the bottom of this post, I have included some thoughts along with some scriptures that a friend sent me regarding this return. I told him of our discussion and he wanted to help and contribute a little if possible. Also, it is helpful in my opinion to remember that many times, the prophets repeated familiar themes that other prophets had addressed also. For instance, Jeremiah predicted a exile to Babylon that occurred yet he was able to remain in the land and Jerusalem. Ezekiel and Daniel were both carried into captivity and corresponded with Jeremiah while they were in Babylon. And all of them were expanding on themes already prophesied by Isaiah about 150 years before. The prophets painted an overall picture, many times tracking with one another although they lived centuries apart. If the prophecy of the 70 weeks did not mention a latter day return, this return was covered by some of the other prophets and woven into the big picture Daniel was commissioned and inspired to predict. Again, I believe the 70th week is to be fulfilled at the end of this present age. Therefore, a Jewish return to the land, in agreement with the prophets, is mandatory if the end-time scenario is to play out as forecast. I'm also aware you may know all of this. I'm just stating it again.

A Messianic Reset

"Jesus was the first to reveal that His coming would occur in two stages consisting of not one but two advents. "You have heard me say, I am going away and am returning to you" (John 14:28). The disclosure of this previously hidden mystery resulted in a divine reset of staggering proportions in the Messianic understanding of Jesus' disciples. Yet, unforeseen to the community of faith even then was the long interval of time that would transpire between the two comings. Unanticipated also was the almost unimaginable reality that for a majority of the interim between the two appearances, the covenant nation itself would be in exile."

"The return of the exiled nation to the land and its eventual messianic redemption at the end of this evil age was a prominent theme of the prophets. This end-time scenario is impossible without a Jewish presence in the land. Therefore, the latter-day return of a Jewish populace to the region known today as Palestine (formerly Canaan) and the reemergence of the modern state of Israel is one of the most significant prophetic signs to transpire since the resurrection of Christ."

(From "Prophecy and the Footsteps of the Messiah" which I wrote recently)

Here are my friend's thoughts:

(BEGIN)
I believe that the far greater number, very nearly all, of the return passages are post-tribulational, after the great national transforming revelation and repentance at Christ’s return.

However, there are a few passages that speak clearly enough of a "recent” return to the Land that is before the tribulation while the larger nation is yet in unbelief and therefore still vulnerable to covenant judgment, treading down, and even further dispersion (Joel 3:2; Isa 27:12-13; Mt 24:16; Lk 21:24; Rev 11:2; 12:6).

One example of a pretribulational return would be Jer 30:3-7, but it is not clear whether the return is the first return from Babylon or the modern return is in view. As typical of the near and far perspective of much of Hebrew prophecy, It works both ways, but the latter is most likely since the context suggests that this return is rather soon followed by the unequaled tribulation that ends with the salvation of the nation (Jer 30:7 with Dan 12:1; Mt 24:21).

Eze 38:8 is especially clear that the return is before the tribulation and the great day of God that ends in Israel’s eternal salvation (Eze 39:8, 22, 28-29). This becomes especially clear from comparing a couple of other scriptures that demonstrate that this return is after " many generations of desolation” (Isa 61:4), after the Land has been a desolate wasteland of " long continuance” (Eze 38:8).

Nothing in the earlier history of Israel has ever answered to this description except the age long exile that began with the final Roman destruction of 132 A.D. Only since then did the Land lay desolate for "many generation” and "of long continuance”.

Even Jeremiah’s prediction of 70 years did not fulfill this language. That was only one generation. This is many. Therefore, only the modern return in unbelief before the great tribulation answers to the context and language of Isa 61:4 & Eze 38:8.

So Eze 38:8 is decisively pre-tribulational and pre-DOL ((compare Eze 39:8 with Rev 16:12-17). Moreover, Eze 38:12-13 shows that the Land is a prosperous prize of great wealth and beauty when invaded by Gog / the Antichrist (Eze 38:17). This agrees with Joel 2:1-3, which shows that the final foe from north descends on a Land that is compared to Eden, and like a swarm of locust, the armies of the Antichrist turn the "beautiful Land” (Dan 8:9; 11:41) into a "desolate wilderness” (Joel 2:3).

There is also Eze 22:19-21. There we see the Lord gathering His apostate people back to Jerusalem for the final crucible of divine purging and smelting in preparation for the nation’s repentance. This too is a very clear instance of Jewish return or regathering before the tribulation while yet in unbelief.

The only other verse that I can recall right off hand is Zeph 2:1-3. There, the people are described as having recently gathered themselves to the Land BEFORE the tribulation an final stoke of judgment.

Zephaniah 2:1-2

Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.

Of course, some commentators see this as only the prophet’s warning to gather together in corporate repentance in order to turn away wrath, but this is a less likely reading. More likely, this is what can be called a prophetic taunt or indictment against the presumption that mere return to the Land is security against the discipline of the covenant. It was no security the first time the Jews returned from Babylon, and repatriation of the Land, if it be yet in unbelief, is no security now.

A full nation of Jews are in the Land when the 7 years begin, but many remain in the nations until the end when the penitent, now Spirit filled survivors all begin their long trek home (Isa 11:11-12, 15-16; 27:12-13; Eze 39:28-29). Other scriptures show that there is flight from the face of the Antichrist into the neighboring wilderness from which also many will return after the tribulation (Isa 16:1-5; 26:20-21; 27:12-13; 35; 42:11-14; Jer 32:2; Eze 20:34-40; Hos 2:14-15, Rev 12:6, 14, etc.).

You can see then how rare and context sensitive these few instances of Jewish return before the tribulation. But what is not rare are the many references where Jewish presence in the Land is assumed. Such a presence, particularly one so fertile, prosperous, and militarily secure, did not exist for the many centuries of desolation. All of this required a return after many generations of desolation and waste.

As to the climactic 70th week prophecy not mentioning Jewish return, why should it? Jewish national presence is completely assumed, since the goal of the 70 7’s was to bring the end of the times of the gentiles with the deliverance of the nation. Daniel need not reiterate what was affirmed throughout all the prophets that final deliverance would include the "full” return of the dispersed exiles with the final destruction of the Antichrist. For any of this to happen, the Jews obviously have to be back in the Land.

Everything depended on the return to the Land, which for centuries seemed distant and remote, with nothing on the immediate horizon to give much hope of this except the bare Word of God. But here we are! After many centuries, we’ve come full circle, the Jewish question and the question of the divine covenant gift of the Land has brought us around to another time when once more, Jerusalem has again become a "cup of trembling for all nations”, pulling all nations, like a swiftly swirling vortex, into the final conflict, the war to end all wars! (END)

I pray some of this helps BranchinVINE. Daniel is a book loaded and chock full of precious revelation. Besides the first eleven chapters of Genesis, it is the most hotly contested book in the Old Testament and not without reason. Someone said, the downfall of the devil is in the details of Daniel. But I will discuss or try and go through any portion of the book of Daniel you may desire to discuss.

Blessings to you good bro.

David it is obvious this topic is extremely important to you- far more so than it is for me.

If you can’t read Daniel 12:2 and see why it may not be referring to the final resurrection of all persons at Jesus’s second coming then I can’t help you.

But I can say that in reference to the mysteries of Dan 12, that Peter believed these referred to the mysteries of salvation by faith in Christ. Daniel asked for clarity but was kept in the dark and even the angel in the vision could not understand.

"Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look."
1 Peter 1:10-12

Here are several teachings by RC Sproul on the "last days” and Olivet Discourse. I think most folks at least respect him as a student and teacher of the word. Of course there are many respectable Christians and teachers who believe similarly:

https://youtu.be/rUKtA0HLPrI (Destruction of Jerusalem)

https://youtu.be/Db2l1OyjU1s ( This generation)

https://youtu.be/Db2l1OyjU1s (The end of the age)

https://youtu.be/Pb5B5pjacCM (Literal of figurative?)

https://youtu.be/fwOgsg6KJH8 (Understanding the parousia)

https://youtu.be/H8PCrvPLqMo ( a question of time)

https://youtu.be/aDYBQjF93Ko ( the Antichrist)

https://youtu.be/vR12QsI8obs (The beast)

Thank you, David (Doc), for your response.

Your friend has given many scriptures.

Let me go through them and give you a reply soon.

Blessings

Todd wrote:

But I can say that in reference to the mysteries of Dan 12, that Peter believed these referred to the mysteries of salvation by faith in Christ. Daniel asked for clarity but was kept in the dark and even the angel in the vision could not understand.

"Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look."
1 Peter 1:10-12

I am still studying this chapter but will say that I am inclined to agree with Todd.

No problem whatsoever. Take thy time.

I enjoy this topic but I will bow out and just read. I’m interested to see how and where it goes.

Hi Jade,

Haven't read through all the responses yet...even after logging out it still says "online!" but I have very limited time to be on here. :)

You had mentioned:

"Yet Daniel did not mention a second return of the Jews in his 70 Weeks prophecy. Much appreciate if you can give other scripture predicting this event."

Though I don't know the Old Testament scriptures off hand that apply, this reminded me of something the Lord said when He was prophesying the destruction of 70AD. He said:

"And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Though this verse does not specifically say that the Jews will return to Israel and Jerusalem, thought it was worth sharing in this discussion.

Love and blessings to you all!

Hi followthelamb,

Thank you very much for contributing the scripture on what Jesus said.

The formation of the nation of Israel in 1948 is a significant event.

My interest in the second return of the Jewish people in this thread is strictly confined to whether there is a clear word of God that there will be a second return BEFORE the events mentioned in Dan. 9:27.

If there is no such prophecy, then the Dispensational View of the 70th week stands on very shaky ground.

The Messianic View however does not require the second return of the Jewish people BEFORE the events mentioned in Dan. 9:27.

The Dispensational View of the 70th week obliges us to watch closely for the coming of the antichrist.

The Messianic View of the 70th week fixes our eyes on Jesus and the wondrous blessings of the New Covenant in His precious blood, which are for the Jewish people too. For this reason, I am in favour of the Messianic View.

Love & Blessings

Hi BranchinVINE.

I am not a Dispensational believer. You haven't referred to me as such but I just thought I would mention it. I believe Israel and the controversy over the land etc. will play a central role in events at the end of the age but I don't believe there are two peoples of God, Israel and then the church. Dispensationalism teaches that those saved during the tribulation are not going to be part of the Church and will not be indwelled by the Holy Spirit as all other believers over the centuries have been. I do not ascribe to this doctrine yet I believe that Christ will make a post-tribulational return to Israel. Not that I am the judge, but I've also found dispensational believers to be among some of the most fervent and God loving people to be found. I just don't ascribe to that particular point of belief but brothers and sisters in the Lord they are. Kudos.

Regarding Daniel 9:27 and the Dispensational view versus the Messianic view, one fact I believe to be important in determining the proper answer to this question is to remember that the taking away of the daily sacrifices and the abomination of desolation is spoken of four times in Daniel and not just in Daniel 9:27.

11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the DAILY SACRIFICES WERE TAKEN AWAY, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. (Daniel 8:11)

27 But in the middle of the week He shall BRING AN END TO SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, and on the wings of abominations shall be one who makes desolate. (Daniel 9:27)

31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall TAKE AWAY THE DAILY SACRIFICES, and place there the abomination of desolation. (Daniel 11:31)

11 And from the time that THE DAILY SACRIFICE IS TAKEN AWAY,
and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Daniel 12:11)

Also,

15 Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand),... (Matthew 24:15).

We see that in Daniel 8:11, 11:31, and 12:11, that each time the abomination of desolation spoken of it is accompanied by the taking away of the daily sacrifices. It is an evil personage doing this in these three passages and in Daniel 9:27 we see one who will bring an abomination that makes desolate as (curiously in the middle of the week) he takes away the daily sacrifices. The point is, that if in three passages it is an evil personage doing this taking away and making desolate why is all of a sudden Christ supposed to the one doing it in Daniel 9:27? That is in no way speaking against Christ and His work, it's just trying to rightfully compare Daniel 9:27 with the other three passages in Daniel that speak of the same thing.

That's all bro. Altogether, I feel like I have overloaded you a bit and I apologize for that. I'm sorry if I have posted too much and should have slowed down a bit. But thank you for your interest and the time you have taken to discuss things.

PTL forever!

/If you can’t read Daniel 12:2 and see why it may not be referring to the final resurrection of all persons at Jesus’s second coming then I can’t help you/

Yet, you have left many loose ends hanging. You have said there are many reasons to believe this is not the resurrection at Christ's coming being spoken of, but you gave none of those reasons.

Who do you believe those being resurrected are in Daniel 12:2 and why do you believe so? For the sake of sound and clear discussion, this you left unanswered.

Blessings. Thank you.

I just like to look at the topic a bit more from a Biblical point of view, without going into all the History details.
I hope this might help some people.

When God uses the word "seventy" then He always means 70.
Eg Cainan lived seventy H7657 years, and begat Mahalaleel...
Moses,...and seventy H7657 of the elders of Israel
Then we have the 70years of captivity.
Nobody would think of 70 as 69 plus a unspecified number plus 1

Dan 9:27 And "he" shall confirm the covenant H1285 with many for one week
We can't link "he" with a Antichrist, because there is no Antichrist mentioned anywhere in the chapter.
We read about a "covenant"
But the Bible never uses the term "7 year tribulation"

There is quite a bit more that I could add, but this is enough for me to see that a Biblical foundation can't be established.
Most Biblical scholars in the past did not believe in a personal Antichrist to come in the future. I just mention Matthew Henry, the Reformers, John Wesley, but there are many many others.

Most important; we should be disciples, followers of Jesus and not of some -ology and -ism.
We could miss out on the deeper things, the truths about every spiritual blessing we have been given in Christ, as makrothumia beautifully explains it in his thread.
May we be like the wise one who is hearing...

Hi Doc,

Thank you for the scriptures you gave regarding the second return of the Jewish people to their land.

This is my conclusion:

We can take other scriptures on what we consider to be prophecies of the second return of the Jewish people to their land and plant them in the 70 Weeks prophecy and hold that the second return of the Jews is implied in Dan. 9:24-27.
My Question:
But exactly where would you place this event in Dan. 9:24-27? The 70 weeks prophecy is precise in the placing of dates and events.

OR

We can strongly maintain that as there is NO mention of a second return of the Jewish people to the land in Dan. 9:24-27, and neither is there any mention of the building of a third temple, therefore, there is NO second return of the Jewish people and NO building of a third temple for the Antichrist to desecrate BEFORE the seventieth week. That is, the prophesied seventieth week is BEFORE 1948. And the covenant mentioned in the seventieth week is the grand and glorious New Covenant of our great Saviour and not some ignoble covenant of the Antichrist.

What saith ye?

Regarding Daniel 9:27 and the Dispensational view versus the Messianic view, one fact I believe to be important in determining the proper answer to this question is to remember that the taking away of the daily sacrifices and the abomination of desolation is spoken of four times in Daniel and not just in Daniel 9:27.

I will take a closer look into this and reply as soon as able.

What has helped me is to remember that the coming of Christ is to occur in two comings, not just one. He came and left but He will come again. Much prophecy can still occur near to His second coming. After all, the question was, "What will be the SIGN OF YOUR COMING and the END OF THE AGE?" A large amount of prophecy and its fulfillment occurs near or at the end of the age. As part of His reply in regards to His second coming, it was Christ Who said, "When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet..." So it was Jesus Himself Who, in regards to His second coming and the signs to precede it, directed us to go to Daniel. Going to Daniel for clues is therefore an act of obedience to Christ.

In the four passages regarding the abomination of desolation, mention is also made each time of the taking away of the daily sacrifices. Most commentators and people I have spoken with will not even take into account Daniel 8:11-12, 11:31, and 12:11. They contend only from Daniel 9:27. From my point of view, I would urge you to consider all four of the passages together with Matthew 24:15. The abomination of desolation, which is a sign of His coming (at the end of the age), is always accompanied by the daily sacrifices being taken away. Therefore, that is what leads us to believe that a rebuilt temple and a vain resumption of the daily sacrifices will occur near Christ's second coming. Sacrifices were made in temples. See my post "The Re-establishing of the Jewish Daily Sacrifices."

And again, if an evil personage is spoken of in Daniel 8:11-12, 11:31 and 12:11, why is it all of a sudden a good personage in Daniel 9:27?

I'll try and reply some more before long on the 70 weeks and the fulfillment of the 70th week. You ask good and legitimate questions in my opinion.

Thank you.

Hi David (Doc),

Not that I am the judge, but I've also found dispensational believers to be among some of the most fervent and God loving people to be found. I just don't ascribe to that particular point of belief but brothers and sisters in the Lord they are.

Our salvation does not depend on whether we are dispensational believers or not. But there is NO salvation for both Jews and Gentiles without the New Covenant in Jesus’ blood.

Regarding Daniel 9:27 and the Dispensational view versus the Messianic view, one fact I believe to be important in determining the proper answer to this question is to remember that the taking away of the daily sacrifices and the abomination of desolation is spoken of four times in Daniel and not just in Daniel 9:27.

11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the DAILY SACRIFICES WERE TAKEN AWAY, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. (Daniel 8:11)

27 But in the middle of the week He shall BRING AN END TO SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, and on the wings of abominations shall be one who makes desolate. (Daniel 9:27)

31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall TAKE AWAY THE DAILY SACRIFICES, and place there the abomination of desolation. (Daniel 11:31)

11 And from the time that THE DAILY SACRIFICE IS TAKEN AWAY,
and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Daniel 12:11)

…………………

We see that in Daniel 8:11, 11:31, and 12:11, that each time the abomination of desolation spoken of it is accompanied by the taking away of the daily sacrifices. It is an evil personage doing this in these three passages and in Daniel 9:27 we see one who will bring an abomination that makes desolate as (curiously in the middle of the week) he takes away the daily sacrifices. The point is, that if in three passages it is an evil personage doing this taking away and making desolate why is all of a sudden Christ supposed to the one doing it in Daniel 9:27? That is in no way speaking against Christ and His work, it's just trying to rightfully compare Daniel 9:27 with the other three passages in Daniel that speak of the same thing.

TAKING AWAY OF THE DAILY SACRIFICE

(1)

Dan. 8:11 (NKJV) ”“
He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.

This took place in Daniel’s vision of the Ram and the Goat in Chapter 8.

This vision is confined to the Medo-Persian and Greek Empires (Dan. 8:20-25).

The "little horn” which removed the daily sacrifices in v.11 was a king from the line of one of the 4 generals who succeeded Alexander the Great (v.9). It is generally agreed that he was Antiochus Epiphanes, a descendant of Seleucus I Nicator, the general who took over the bulk of the territory which Alexander had conquered in Asia, centring on Syria and Persia. Antiochus Epiphanes set up an "Awful Horror” in the altar of the temple and offered pagan sacrifices on a pagan altar erected on top of the altar of the temple. He ordered the Jews not to offer burnt offerings, grain offerings and wine offerings. He also ordered them to treat the Sabbath and festivals as ordinary workdays. He shipped off the sacred vessels, including the seven-branch golden menorah, and stole gold and silver coins (1 Maccabees 1).

(2)

Dan. 9:27

NASB ”“
And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.

NKJV ”“
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.

Brenton Septuagint ”“
And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

This is the last verse in Daniel’s 70 Weeks prophecy in Chapter 9:24-27.

The 70 Weeks prophecy was given in response to Daniel’s prayer.

Daniel had observed that the 70-year period God had set for the desolation of Jerusalem (Jer. 25:11, 29:10) was about to expire. He then went to God in prayer and prayed for God to forgive His people, to let His face shine on the desolate sanctuary and to take action because "Your city and Your people are called by Your name” (v.3-19).

In response to his prayer, the angel Gabriel came to him and gave him the 70 Weeks prophecy (v. 24-27).

Therefore, the 70 Weeks prophecy is a prophecy for the Jewish people, for their sanctuary and their city.

This prophecy culminates in the coming of the Messiah (Christ) AFTER the 69th week, i.e. in the 70th Week, who will be "cut off” (Christ’s crucifixion) (v.26).

In this 70th Week (v.27) Christ’s death on the cross brings in the glories of the New Covenant in His blood, of which their prophets had prophesied. This final 70th week merits a separate and special mention for it is the most momentous "week” for mankind in all time and eternity.

And with Christ’s one offering, all OT offerings are taken away.

Heb. 7:18-19 ”“
For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Heb. 8:7-8, 13 ”“
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them, He says, "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah……When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Heb. 10:1,9,10,14 ”“
For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near……then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all……For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

1 Pet. 1:10-12 ”“
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things into which angels long to look.

(3)

Dan. 11:31 (NKJV) ”“
And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

After receiving the 70 Weeks prophecy, Daniel was given further revelations in connection with the 70 Weeks in Chapters 11”“12:1-4. Note that in the 70 Weeks, the 62 weeks in Dan. 9:25 refer to the intertestamental period and this covers the time of the Persian, Greek and Roman empires. Dan. 11 gives more prophecies of the events that would occur during this time. The ruler who took away the daily sacrifices in Dan. 11:31 is the same ruler who took away the sacrifices in Dan. 8:11 i.e. Antiochus Epiphanes.

(4)

Dan. 12:11 (NKJV) ”“
And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Consider this:

According to Josephus, the Roman armies first approached Jerusalem under Cestius in Nov. 66 AD. In July 70 AD (approx. three and half years later, taking away parts of the 2 months), the daily sacrifices were taken away as recorded by Josephus:

"And now Titus gave orders to his soldiers that were with him to dig up the foundations of the tower of Antonia, and make a ready passage for his army to come up, while he himself had Josephus brought to him; for he had been informed that, on that very day, which was the seventeenth day of Panemus, the sacrifice called 'the daily sacrifice' had failed, and had not been offered to God for want of men to offer it; and that the people were grievously troubled at it" (Wars, VI. 2.1.).

I am not saying that this is definitely the event in Dan. 12:11 but it could be.

A Question:
Why would the Antichrist desecrate the Jewish temple? Isn’t antichrist anti-Christian, anti-grace and truth (John 1:17), anti-New Covenant, anti-faith in Jesus, anti-the body of Christ, anti-church……?

John 2:19-21 ”“
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Eph. 2:19-22 ”“
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

ADD: I will study the abomination of desolation next.

Blessings

I'm busy and trying to find time to respond.

Thank you.

That is okay. Take your time. I am rather busy too.

Something else to consider:

Jesus said in Luke 21:24 (NKJV) ”“

"And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

(1)

Has the "times of the Gentiles” been fulfilled?
The Muslim mosque, Al-Aqsa still stands on Temple Mount and the Arab population in the Old City still exceeds the Jewish population there.

(2)

In Rom. 11:25, Paul speaks of the time "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in”. But note that what follows is salvation NOT any desolation or tribulation.

This agrees with Isa. 51:11 (NKJV)”“

"So the ransomed of the LORD shall return,
And come to Zion with singing,
With everlasting joy on their heads.
They shall obtain joy and gladness;
Sorrow and sighing shall flee away.”

Note that they return to "everlasting joy” and "sorrow and sighing shall flee away” i.e. NOT a return to any desolation or tribulation.

This would support the view that the desolation in Dan. 9:27 is a past event.

Blessings.

The Lord Jesus said in Matt. 24:15-16 (NASB):

"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.”

The Lord said this in the Olivet Prophecy (Olivet Discourse) in Matt. 24:1-44. Parallel passages of this prophecy are in Mark 13:1-37 and Luke 21:5-36.

SETTING OF THE OLIVET PROPHECY

One day, as Jesus was leaving the temple, His disciples pointed out the buildings of the temple to Him and one of them said:

Mark 13:1 (NASB) ”“
"Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!"

Jesus replied:

Matt. 24:2 (NASB) ”“
"Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down”.

Later, as He sat on the Mount of Olives, Peter and James and John and Andrew came to him privately and asked Him:

Matt. 24:3 (NASB) ”“
"Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Parallel passages regarding this question are in Mark and Luke as follows:

Mark 13:4 (NASB) --
"Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?"

Luke 21:7 (NASB) --
"Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?”

It was in response to this question that Jesus then gave the Olivet Prophecy or Olivet Discourse.

THE DISCIPLES’ QUESTION

We see in Matt. 24:3 that there are two questions:

(1) When will the stones of the temple be torn down i.e. when will the temple be destroyed?

(2) When will Jesus come again?

NO SIGN WILL BE GIVEN FOR THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST

Jesus said that NO sign will be given for His second return. His return will be totally unexpected.

Matt. 24:36-44 --
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be………Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Mark 13:32-37 ”“
But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
"Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.
It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert.
Therefore, be on the alert””for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning”” in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep. What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’”

Comment:
The Dispensational View of the seventieth week in Daniel’s Seventy Weeks Prophecy, by setting a fixed future time-line of events and signs for the second coming of Christ, clearly contradicts the Lord Jesus’ words that there will be NO sign for His return.

THE SIGN FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM AND TEMPLE

The "abomination of desolation” is the SIGN to the disciples for the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

Matt. 24:15-16 (NASB) ”“
Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Mark 13:14 (NASB) ”“
But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20 ”“
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

NOTE in the above passages: "When you SEE……” i.e. a sign that can be seen.

This is the "abomination of desolation” predicted in Dan. 9:27. The Septuagint text uses the same word that Jesus used:

Dan. 9:27 (Brenton Septuagint Translation) ”“
And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATIONS; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

WHAT IS THIS ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION

By comparing Luke 21:20 with corresponding verses Matt. 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14, we can see that the "abomination of desolation” is "Jerusalem surrounded by armies”.

Therefore, the armies that are were to accomplish the desolation of Jerusalem were the "abomination of desolation”.

"Abomination” just means a "detestable thing” (Strong’s Concordance). It is often used in connection with idols and idolatry in the O.T. But it can equally and fittingly be applied to the "detestable thing” of the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem to destroy it. It is the abomination NOT to desecrate the temple BUT to make Jerusalem DESOLATE. Note: Abomination of DESOLATION.

THE HOLY PLACE

Matt. 24:15 speaks of the abomination of desolation "standing in the holy place”.

This is often interpreted as in the "holy of holies”.

The Greek word for "holy place” here is "hagios: sacred, holy” + "topos: a place or locality”.

Therefore, it can certainly be applied to Jerusalem, the holy place or the holy city.

In Heb. 9:12,24,25, the Greek word for the holy of holies is just "hagios”, not "hagios topos”

Besides, people outside the temple would not be able to SEE an abomination set up in the holy of holies.

This is an abomination of DESOLATION, NOT an abomination of desecration.

A PERSONAL THOUGHT

The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD seems to me to be a fitting fulfilment of Heb. 8:13 and Dan 9:27.

Heb. 8:13 (NASB) ”“
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Dan. 9:27 (Brenton’s Septuagint) ”“
And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

An infinitely greater than Solomon is here (Matt. 12:42).

An infinitely greater sacrifice is here (Heb. 10:1-18).

An infinitely greater temple is here (John 1:19-21, Eph. 2:19-22).

An infinitely greater priesthood is here (Heb. 6:19-20, 7:15-28).

An infinitely greater city is here (Heb. 12:22).

An infinitely greater covenant is here (Heb. 8:6-13).

An infinitely greater hope is here (Col. 1:25-27).

And, infinitely greater riches are here (Eph. 3:8, 17-19).

2 Cor. 5:17 (NKJV) ”“
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

I COUNT ALL THINGS TO BE LOSS IN VIEW OF THE SURPASSING VALUE OF KNOWING CHRIST JESUS MY LORD

The apostle Paul was a Jew.

He said:

Phil. 3:4-11 ”“
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh.
If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

A NEW AND LIVING WAY

Heb. 10:19-22 (NASB) ”“
Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

LET US FIX OUR EYES ON JESUS

Heb. 12:1-2 (NASB) ”“
……let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

WATCH AND PRAY

Matt. 24:42 (NKJV) ”“
Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

Luke 21:34 (NKJV) ”“
But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.

Matt. 24:42 (NKJV) ”“
Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

What do we watch and pray for?

Luke tells us:

Luke 21:34 (NKJV) ”“
But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.

Comment:
We must watch that the temptations of the world and the cares of life do not take us away from abiding in Christ.

Jesus said to His disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane:

Matt. 26:41 (NASB) ”“
"Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Comment:
Only the Holy Spirit can keep us in Christ and set us free from sin and death.

Rom. 8:2-8,13-14 (NASB) ”“
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God…………for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Comment:
Will we be found living according to the Spirit with our minds set on the things of the Spirit when Jesus comes?

PARABLE OF THE TEN VIRGINS

Matt. 25:1-13 (NASB) ”“
Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.
For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.
Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’
Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’
And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’
But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’
Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

Hymn: The Old Account Was Settled Long Ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqc3euphOLU

SCRIPTURE

Heb. 10:3-47,9-10,17-18 ”“
But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins
…………
then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
…………
He then says,
"AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Ps. 86:8-9 ”“
There is no one like You among the gods, O Lord,
Nor are there any works like Yours.
All nations whom You have made shall come
and worship before You, O Lord,
And they shall glorify Your name.

Oh boy do I ever apologize for my tardiness in replying to your good posts and questions and insights. Sometimes I get busy and can't seem to get loose. I have been asked to teach Sunday school over Zoom tomorrow morning so I need to prepare for that. Plus I have to do a bit of work today. But beginning tomorrow, I will be free and will try to pick up where we left off.

Blessings.

Hi David (Docs),
Reply when you can.
Blessings

BUT WHEN THE FULLNESS OF THE TIME CAME, GOD SENT FORTH HIS SON……… (Gal.4:4)

The Seventy Weeks Prophecy culminates in the coming of the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, who took away the Old Covenant (which was weak and unprofitable because the Law made nothing perfect ”“ Heb. 7:19) and brought in the New Covenant of grace by which we may be perfected and gain the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Th. 1:12, 2:13-14).

Different timelines have been constructed for the Seventy Weeks Prophecy.

For me, the following timeline shows the certainty and wonder of God’s Word.

(1)
STARTING POINT OF THE SEVENTY WEEKS

Dan. 9:25 (NASB) ”“
So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

The starting point of the Seventy Weeks is the "issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem”.

Long before Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by the Babylonians, God had decreed that it would be through Cyrus that Jerusalem and the temple would be rebuilt.

Isa. 44:26 (NASB)”“
Confirming the word of His servant
And performing the purpose of His messengers.
It is I who says of Jerusalem,
'She shall be inhabited!'
And of the cities of Judah,
'They shall be built.'
And I will raise up her ruins again.

v. 28 ”“
"It is I who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd!
And he will perform all My desire.'
And he declares of Jerusalem,
'She will be built,'
And of the temple,
'Your foundation will be laid.'"

Isa. 45:1-7 (NASB) ”“
Thus says the LORD to Cyrus His anointed,
Whom I have taken by the right hand,
To subdue nations before him
And to loose the loins of kings;
To open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:
"I will go before you and make the rough places smooth;
I will shatter the doors of bronze and cut through their iron bars.
"I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden wealth of secret places,
So that you may know that it is I,
The LORD, the God of Israel, who calls you by your name.
"For the sake of Jacob My servant,
And Israel My chosen one,
I have also called you by your name;
I have given you a title of honor
Though you have not known Me.
"I am the LORD, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

v.13 ”“
"I have aroused him in righteousness
And I will make all his ways smooth;
He will build My city and will let My exiles go free,
Without any payment or reward,” says the LORD of hosts.

The starting point was NOT the time when the work of the rebuilding of the city began. It was simply the time when the decree to restore and to build the city was issued. Cyrus issued this decree in the first year of his reign.

Ezra 1:1-5 ”“
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying:
"Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, ‘The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and He has appointed me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever there is among you of all His people, may his God be with him! Let him go up to Jerusalem which is in Judah and rebuild the house of the LORD, the God of Israel; He is the God who is in Jerusalem. Every survivor, at whatever place he may live, let the men of that place support him with silver and gold, with goods and cattle, together with a freewill offering for the house of God which is in Jerusalem.’”

It may be argued that the decree in Dan. 9:25 was for the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the rebuilding of the city of Jerusalem was not mentioned in Ezra. 1:1-5. But God had said in Isa. 45:13 that it would be through Cyrus that BOTH the temple and the city of Jerusalem would be rebuilt, and God’s Word cannot fail.

Ps. 33:9 ”“
For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.

And God’s Word did not fail. For when the people, by Cyrus’ decree, returned to rebuild the temple, they also began to rebuild the city of Jerusalem as evidenced by the complaint of the adversaries to the king.

Ezra 4:12 (NKJV) ”“
Let it be known to the king that the Jews who came up from you have come to us at Jerusalem, and are building the rebellious and evil city, and are finishing its walls and repairing the foundations.

In 1913, Martin Anstey constructed a chronology based solely on biblical data which gave the year of Cyrus’ decree as 457 BC.

(2)
THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH, THE ANOINTED ONE, AT THE END OF THE SIXTY-NINTH WEEK (DAN. 9:25)

69 "weeks” i.e. 483 years (69 X 7) after 457 BC brings us to 26 AD.

This was the year the Lord Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist in Jordan River. It was at His baptism that the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove (Luke 3:22). God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power (Acts 10:38). Jesus then began His ministry in the power of the Spirit (Luke 4:14) and declared Himself to be the "Anointed” One, the Messiah: "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor……” (Luke 4:18).

The sixty-ninth week thus ended and the seventieth week began.

(3)
MESSIAH "CUT OFF’ IN MIDDLE OF SEVENTIETH WEEK

Dan. 9:26-27 (YLT) ”“
And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah………And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease…

It is inferred from information in the Gospel of John that the ministry of Christ lasted three and a half year. This is supported by the Law of the Passover Lamb. The lamb was selected 4 days before it was sacrificed (Ex. 12:1-6). Jesus was declared to be the Lamb of God at His baptism by John the Baptist (John 1:29), in whom God is well-pleased (Luke 3:22). Four years from His baptism brings us to His crucifixion and resurrection in the middle of the seventieth week, 30 AD.

And with Christ’s one offering all other offerings were taken away (Heb. 10). And by the New Covenant in His blood, the old Covenant was made obsolete (Heb. 8). Everlasting righteousness was brought in and the Holy Spirit has come to fill disciples of Christ, anointing God’s spiritual temple (Dan. 9:24 ”“ "and to anoint the most holy place”. Also, see 2 Cor. 1:21).

Thus ends the prophecy for the Seventy Weeks.

No event was prophesied to mark the end of the seventy weeks.

Christ’s great sacrifice and the New Covenant in His blood has opened for all mankind the glorious eternal day of truth and grace.

(4)

Jerusalem was destroyed 40 years later in 70 AD. This event is not an event within the 70 weeks (Re: Dan. 9:24).

THE NEW COVENANT

Six sermons by David Wilkerson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhERYLteo-c&list=PL56B05D3BC61B40AB

1 Cor. 11:23-26 (NASB)””

For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is THE NEW COVENANT IN MY BLOOD; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

The body of Christ now being the temple of God goes without saying. That is a given beyond dispute.

The Jews rebuilding a physical temple in a vain attempt to once again please the God of their fathers is an altogether different matter. You are not even speaking of the same thing. The Jews rebuilding a physical temple does nothing to alter the fact that God now dwells within those who have placed their faith in Christ. I've heard it so many times when making mention of a rebuilt Jewish temple. The thought is, well the body of Christ is now God's temple. Of course it is, yet the rebuilding of a temple by the Jews is not even speaking of the same subject. It helps to clarify this.

/MESSIAH "CUT OFF’ IN MIDDLE OF SEVENTIETH WEEK

Dan. 9:26-27 (YLT) ”“
And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah………And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease…

It is inferred from information in the Gospel of John that the ministry of Christ lasted three and a half year. This is supported by the Law of the Passover Lamb. The lamb was selected 4 days before it was sacrificed (Ex. 12:1-6). Jesus was declared to be the Lamb of God at His baptism by John the Baptist (John 1:29), in whom God is well-pleased (Luke 3:22). Four years from His baptism brings us to His crucifixion and resurrection in the middle of the seventieth week, 30 AD.

And with Christ’s one offering all other offerings were taken away (Heb. 10). And by the New Covenant in His blood, the old Covenant was made obsolete (Heb. 8). Everlasting righteousness was brought in and the Holy Spirit has come to fill disciples of Christ, anointing God’s spiritual temple (Dan. 9:24 ”“ "and to anoint the most holy place”. Also, see 2 Cor. 1:21).

Thus ends the prophecy for the Seventy Weeks.

No event was prophesied to mark the end of the seventy weeks.

Christ’s great sacrifice and the New Covenant in His blood has opened for all mankind the glorious eternal day of truth and grace.

(4)

Jerusalem was destroyed 40 years later in 70 AD. This event is not an event within the 70 weeks (Re: Dan. 9:24)./

*/It is inferred from information in the Gospel of John that the ministry of Christ lasted three and a half year. This is supported by the Law of the Passover Lamb. The lamb was selected 4 days before it was sacrificed (Ex. 12:1-6). Jesus was declared to be the Lamb of God at His baptism by John the Baptist (John 1:29), in whom God is well-pleased (Luke 3:22). Four years from His baptism brings us to His crucifixion and resurrection in the middle of the seventieth week, 30 AD.*/

This seems to me to be changing horses mid-stream. I say this because this view advocates that the time from the issuing of the decree to rebuild to the crucifixion and resurrection are to be counted as literal years. Yet the final three and a half years of the 70th week (occurring after the crucifixion and resurrection) is said to represent the entire church age up until the second coming. So, the first sixty nine and a half weeks are measured in literal years while the second half of the seventieth week represents thousand of years. Why change methods of interpretation mid-stream?

/No event was prophesied to mark the end of the seventy weeks./

I would disagree. The resurrection of the dead and the re-instatement of Israel to covenant favor under Christ occurs at the end of the 70th week. Daniel 12:1 speaks of a time of distress for the nation such as has never occurred followed in Daniel 12:2 by a description of the resurrection. The resurrection is when Christ comes again. Thus ending the 70th week. The large interim of time between His first and second coming is what was unforeseen.

Thank you. I'm very sorry for taking this long to try and get back to you.

This my view of the clauses of Daniel 9:24.

The Clauses of Daniel 9:24

24 Seventy weeks have been decreed (determined) for
your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement (reconciliation)for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place.

God's plan of redemption is based on two advents of Christ. The clauses of Daniel 9:24 speak of seven Messanic triumphs to be achieved in two stages - partly at the first coming of Christ and completed at His second advent.

FIRST COMING

1) to finish the transgression

To the Jews of that day, the finishing of the transgression could mean only one thing: It meant the end of the sinful condition that was perpetuating the curse and delaying the promise of everlasting security in the Land. It meant the end of rebellion and wrath from God because of the nation's disobedience and reckless disregard of His law. They understood that so long as this condition of national apostasy would persist, the day of the Lord that would accomplish the final discipline of the covenant and the bringing in of the promise of an everlasting righteousness was yet future.

"to finish the transgression" can also have an appropriate application to Christ's victory over sin and death at Calvary

2) to make an end of sin

This also speaks to Jews and Christians of the time promised when the sin of Israel would no longer prevail to hold back the promise that an all righteous and eternally preserved nation would inherit the Land forever by a righteousness that is forever, a righteousness that is not their own. It speaks particularly to the Christian who sees application to Jesus' triumph over the claim of sin and the accusations of Satan by the atonement and the breaking of sin's power over the life by the gift of the Holy Spirit received by faith in Jesus. This aspect of this promise was sealed at Messiah's first advent and will be entered into by the surviving remnant of Israel at His return.

3) to make atonement (reconciliation) for iniquity

The meaning to the Jews of that day was that this atone- ment and reconciliation would be made by sacrificial tem-ple ceremonies but through the revelation of the mystery of the gospel, we see a much more eternal foundation of the everlasting covenant in the Lamb slain from the foun-dation of the world. He is the anointed prince (Messiah) who is introduced in Dan 9:25 and "cut off" in Dan 9:26 at the end of the sixty ninth week. All that will be made sure to the nation at the day of the Lord, at the end of the seventieth week is based on what was accomplished in Messiah's atoning death at the end of the sixty ninth week. Through the revelation of the gospel and the present gift of the Spirit, this has come now, in unexpec-ted advance of that day, as the New Covenant in His blood.

SECOND COMING

4) to bring in everlasting righteousness

By His atonement Christ purchased everlasting righteousness by His atoning death, but whereas this is available now to the believer in Jesus, it is not be 'brought in' for the nation until the end when all Israel will enter into
the righteousness of Christ when Jesus will reveal Himself
to the surviving remnant and a nation will be born at once,'in one day', enabled now to possess the Land in final peace and security, never again to be plucked up or rooted out.

5) to seal up vision and prophecy

This does not mean to 'fulfill' the vision and prophecy.
This is speaking particularly of Isaiah's sealed vision(Isa 8:14-17; 28:9-10, 12-13; 29:10-14, 18-19; 45:3; 48:6),
which echoes from the Song of Moses (Deut 32:34). It
means that until the end of the seventieth week, when God's face would no longer be hidden from the nation as a whole(see Deut 31:17-18; 32:20 with Isa 8:14-18; Eze 39:23-24, 29), the vision and prophecy would be 'concealed' from all but the believing remnant from whom God's face was never hidden (Isa 8:16; Mk 4:11-12).

When the heart of the nation will be turned to the Lord,
the mystery of God will be finished and the veil that covers, not only the Jewish heart but the nations will be
removed in one day at the last trump (see Isa 25:7 with
Isa 66:8; Rev 10:7).

6) and prophecy

See #5 above

7) to anoint the most holy place

For those who read prophecy literally as the exiles who first received Daniel's book, this can only mean the 'holy place'(Mt 24:15) that has been so recently defiled by the Antichrist, as foreshadowed in the desecration by the Syrian tyrant of the second century B.C. According to Ezekiel's prophecy (Eze 40-48), a new temple will be erected after the great conflagration of Armageddon. It will be situated on a newly elevated plain as described in Zechariah chapter 14. It is here, shortly after the ending of the seventieth week, evidently after a season of profoundly deep and contrite mourning, the newly reformed nation will rededicate the temple by first anointing the mos\\t holy place, which is the in most part of the temple.

Thank you, David (Docs), for your replies. Am busy, will reply when free.

No problem good man.

David (Doc),

You wrote:

The body of Christ now being the temple of God goes without saying. That is a given beyond dispute.

The Jews rebuilding a physical temple in a vain attempt to once again please the God of their fathers is an altogether different matter. You are not even speaking of the same thing. The Jews rebuilding a physical temple does nothing to alter the fact that God now dwells within those who have placed their faith in Christ. I've heard it so many times when making mention of a rebuilt Jewish temple. The thought is, well the body of Christ is now God's temple. Of course it is, yet the rebuilding of a temple by the Jews is not even speaking of the same subject. It helps to clarify this.

Then why bring 2 Thess. 2:3-4 into Dan. 9:27 and assert that the Antichrist will desecrate the Jewish temple in the seventieth week??

2 Thess. 2:3-4 ”“
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Is the temple of God in 2 Thess. 2:4 a Jewish temple?

Stephen said that God does not dwell in the Jewish temple:

Acts 7:46-49 ”“
David found favor in God's sight, and asked that he might find a dwelling place for the God of Jacob.
But it was Solomon who built a house for Him.
However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands; as the prophet says:
'HEAVEN IS MY THRONE, AND EARTH IS THE FOOTSTOOL OF MY FEET;
WHAT KIND OF HOUSE WILL YOU BUILD FOR ME?' says the Lord,
'OR WHAT PLACE IS THERE FOR MY REPOSE?
WAS IT NOT MY HAND WHICH MADE ALL THESE THINGS?'

Paul himself said:

Acts 17:24 ”“
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;

Paul said we are the temple of God (God’s new creation) and he said:

2 Cor. 13:5 (KJV) ”“
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Can we say as Jesus said:

John 14:30 (KJV) ”“
……the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

---------

ADD:

The Jews accused Paul of desecrating their temple!

Acts 24:5-6 ”“
For we have found this man a real pest and a fellow who stirs up dissension among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes. And he even tried to desecrate the temple; and then we arrested him. We wanted to judge him according to our own Law.

--------

I will reply to other points you raised when free.

Blessings

/Then why bring 2 Thess. 2:3-4 into Dan. 9:27 and assert that the Antichrist will desecrate the Jewish temple in the seventieth week??/

Because the believing body of Christ, Jew or Gentile, now being the temple of God and still unbelieving Jews vainly rebuilding a physical temple and beginning sacrifices again are two different things.

Also, the abomination of desolation is spoken of four times, not just once in Daniel 9:27. Daniel 8:11-12; 9:27; 11:31; 12:11. Each time it is spoken of, the cessation of daily sacrifices is also spoken of. So, in Matthew 24:15 when Jesus said, "when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, the prophet, standing in the holy place...", was Jesus speaking of something different or was He speaking of the same thing Daniel was? It's entirely consistent to believe he was referring to the same thing Daniel was. At this point in Matthew 24:15, the scriptures also state,"whoever reads, let him understand." So, going to Daniel to find the meaning is being obedient to the words of Jesus.

Matthew 24:15 - "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE" (whoever reads, let him understand)…."

The reference to the holy place made by Jesus here could only have been understood to mean the holy place or inner sanctum of the Jewish temple - the holy of holies. It's the same with Paul in II Thessalonians 2:4. The Jewish people of that day could only have understood this to refer to the Jewish temple. Now, the great vexation arises in trying to interpret this. The Jewish temple of that day was destroyed and almost 2,000 years have gone by with most of the time the Jewish nation being dispersed and scattered from Palestine. Yet now they are back again although largely in unbelief. Jesus said the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15)would set off a time of great tribulation such as has never occurred (Matthew 24:21) and would end in His second coming at the sound of a great trumpet (Matthew 24:29-31). None of this HAS OCCURRED YET. But without a Jewish presence in the land this end of the age scenario cannot occur. Yet now, against all odds, there is again a Jewish presence in the land again after almost two millennia.

Since each time the abomination was spoken of by Daniel it is accompanied by the ceasing of daily sacrifices, then it is not out of the park speculation to believe that, at some point, the Jewish nation (still largely in unbelief) will make a vain attempt to build again a temple and resume sacrifices. All that has come before has been types and patterns of a ultimate eschatological fulfillment still to occur.

Also, how could a man of sin enter into the church, the temple of God, and speak great blasphemies and declare himself to be God? No man of sin/Antichrist can enter into my innermost man where God dwells and utter blasphemies and declare himself to be God. It is not possible. But into a literal physical temple built again by unbelieving Jews in a vain attempt to become right with God again he would be able to enter. And he does this in the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK (Daniel 9:27).

None of this possible many say. For centuries they also said that a Jewish return to the land was not possible and would never occur again.

Jesus gave us the grandest and clearest of keys to unlocking the timing of the question, "When will these things be and what will be the SIGN OF YOUR COMING and the END OF THE AGE? Jesus said, "When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet..." Taking place during the middle of the week.

1) A consistent hermeneutic of interpretation should be applied. It seems inconsistent in my opinion to advocate that from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the crucifixion and resurrection should be counted in literal years, but the remaining three and a half years of the 70th week after the crucifixion and resurrection represents thousand of years encompassing the entirety of the church age.

2) The believing church now being the temple of God is beyond dispute while the rebuilding of a physical temple by unbelieving Jews is another matter altogether. A rebuilt temple would in no way obscure of render void the firm and indisputable reality that the believing people of God are now the temple of the indwelling God.

3) The abomination of desolation is not mentioned once by Daniel but four times. Daniel 8:11-12; 9:27; 11:31; 12:11.
When the abomination of desolation is mentioned it is always accompanied by reference to the taking away of daily sacrifices thereby setting off the distinct possibility of another temple being in service. It is doubtful renewed sacrifices would be attempted in any place but a temple. And this temple would have to be built again since it does not currently exist.

4) According to Jesus, the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15) sets off a great and final tribulation (Matthew 24:21 - compare with Daniel 12:1) leading to the return of Christ AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days (Matthew 24:29-31). These things have not occurred.

5) To "anoint" the Most Holy" (Daniel 9:24) does not refer to anointing Christ. Christ is not a place but a person.

6) How can the man of sin/Antichrist enter into the temple of God and defile it? If he can, then the enemy can enter our born again inner man. I don't believe this is possible.

7) The abomination of desolation occurs mid-week (Daniel 9:27) and ends in the return of Christ and the resurrection of the dead at the end of the 70th week. How then can the remaining 70th week not still be a future event?

8) A Jewish presence in the land is essential for the end time scenario forecast by the Bible and there they are again against all odds and against many forecasts made by master theologians who have long ago and currently written Israel off as not having any remaining prophetic significance!

/Then why bring 2 Thess. 2:3-4 into Dan. 9:27 and assert that the Antichrist will desecrate the Jewish temple in the seventieth week??/

Because the believing body of Christ, Jew or Gentile, now being the temple of God and still unbelieving Jews vainly rebuilding a physical temple and beginning sacrifices again are two different things.

Then why are members of the believing body of Christ bringing 2 Thess. 2:3-4 into Dan. 9:27 to support "unbelieving Jews vainly rebuilding a physical temple and beginning sacrifices”?

2 Thess. 2:3-4 has been misapplied.

Take away 2 Thess. 2:3-4 and there is NO scriptural ground for the need of a Jewish temple in the Seventieth Week (Dan. 9:27) and the view that the Antichrist will desecrate the Jewish temple in the seventieth week crumbles.

The reference to the holy place made by Jesus here could only have been understood to mean the holy place or inner sanctum of the Jewish temple - the holy of holies. It's the same with Paul in II Thessalonians 2:4. The Jewish people of that day could only have understood this to refer to the Jewish temple.

II Thessalonians was written to Thessalonian CHRISTIANS, NOT to the Jewish people.

The Christians that Paul had taught would have been grounded in the truth that they themselves, believers, were the temple of God (1 Cor. 6:19, 1 Cor. 3:16, 1 Cor. 3:17, 2 Cor. 6:16, Eph. 2:19-22).

Also, how could a man of sin enter into the church, the temple of God, and speak great blasphemies and declare himself to be God? No man of sin/Antichrist can enter into my innermost man where God dwells and utter blasphemies and declare himself to be God. It is not possible……How can the man of sin/Antichrist enter into the temple of God and defile it? If he can, then the enemy can enter our born again inner man. I don't believe this is possible.

Paul tells us that God dwells in the church:

Eph. 2:19-22 ”“
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Can the church fall away and cease to be the dwelling place of God?

Most certainly the church can lose Christ as her first love and lose the light of Christ and plunge into sin and darkness as the church in Ephesus did.

Rev. 2:4,5 ”“
But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent.

Most certainly the church can evict Christ as the church in Laodicea did.

Rev. 3:20 ”“
Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Ezek. 14:2-3, 6 ”“
And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their hearts and have put right before their faces the stumbling block of their iniquity.”……”Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Repent and turn away from your idols and turn your faces away from all your abominations……”’”

2 Pet. 1:19 ”“
So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.

That is, the prophetic word is the lamp shining in a dark place until the day dawns when Christ, the Morning Star (Rev. 22:16) arises in our hearts, till Christ dwells in our hearts by faith (Eph. 3:14-19) and becomes our Light of Life.

Paul warned Timothy about the apostasy, the falling away from faith in the Lord Jesus.

1 Tim. 4:1 --
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

When the apostasy comes and Christ no longer dwells in the hearts of believers, His holy temple, the man of sin takes His place, as Paul wrote:

2 Thess. 2:3-4 ”“
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Who is the antichrist?

1 John 4:2-3 (NKJV) ”“
By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

Comment:

The Spirit of Christ will lead us into all truth (i.e. lead us into Christ for Christ is the Truth ”“ John 14:6). We are in Christ and Christ in us when the Spirit of Christ indwells us (John 14:16-20). Christ is tabernacled in our flesh and we do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit, for "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me (Gal. 2:20).

The spirit of Antichrist opposes Christ in us, rejects Christ tabernacled in our flesh, rejects "it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me”. We will not have this Man to rule over us! Man will be his own god (Gen. 3:22), eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, abounding in his own wisdom (which is foolishness to God), walking "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience”, living "in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind” and the boastful pride of life (Eph. 2:2-3, 1 John 2:16).

God says to us:

Prov. 23:26 ”“
Give me your heart, my son,
And let your eyes delight in my ways.

BUT,

Isa. 14:13-14 ”“
But you said in your heart,
'I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'

Phil. 2:21 ”“
For they all seek after their own interests, not those of Christ Jesus.

To "anoint" the Most Holy" (Daniel 9:24) does not refer to anointing Christ. Christ is not a place but a person.

On the Day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was poured out to anoint all believers, God’s holy temple, God’s holy dwelling place.

1 Pet. 2:4-5 ”“
And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Eph. 2:20-22 ”“
………Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Also, the abomination of desolation is spoken of four times, not just once in Daniel 9:27. Daniel 8:11-12; 9:27; 11:31; 12:11. Each time it is spoken of, the cessation of daily sacrifices is also spoken of. So, in Matthew 24:15 when Jesus said, "when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, the prophet, standing in the holy place...", was Jesus speaking of something different or was He speaking of the same thing Daniel was? It's entirely consistent to believe he was referring to the same thing Daniel was. At this point in Matthew 24:15, the scriptures also state,"whoever reads, let him understand." So, going to Daniel to find the meaning is being obedient to the words of Jesus.

I have commented on this on this thread re:

Taking Away of the Daily Sacrifice
--- Posted on 7/9/20

The Olivet Prophecy ”“ The Abomination of Desolation
--- Posed on 11/9/20

A consistent hermeneutic of interpretation should be applied. It seems inconsistent in my opinion to advocate that from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the crucifixion and resurrection should be counted in literal years, but the remaining three and a half years of the 70th week after the crucifixion and resurrection represents thousand of years encompassing the entirety of the church age.

Did the angel Gabriel speak to Daniel about a "Church Age” when he gave Daniel the 70 Weeks Prophecy?

Blessings