A Perverse Disconnect

Written recently by a Jewish believer presently living in Tennessee whose Jewish grandfather perished in the camp at Auschwitz:

"There are some who teach, even to the point of being giddy, that Jesus will be hosting a "marriage supper” on the heels of a pre-tribulation rapture,” lasting the full seven years of the Seventieth Week of Daniel. That would mean that there would be great feasting and rejoicing in heaven right on through to the end of the "Time of Jacob’s Trouble.” Just ponder that for a moment..."

"There is a strange, and I will even go so far as to say, a perverse disconnect when believers can read Scriptures like Romans 9, 10 and 11 and can come up with the "blessed hope” as being that of an imminent rapture of the Church, with no thought of having any responsibility in Israel’s redemption, or as one man has expressed it, a mentality that says, "Jacob’s Trouble” is "Jacob’s Problem.”

"There is a serious disconnect here, and worse, your testimony to the Jew just got tossed into the refuse heap!” And, what a perverse disconnect from the reality of what the vast majority of the Church is subjected to on a daily basis throughout much of the world. We should be embarrassed."

"Perhaps, they should take the same advice that Mordecai gave to Queen Esther, "Do not imagine that you in the king’s palace can escape any more than all the Jews.” For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?"

Fred London

I find that powerful.

In Matt. 25, where Jesus foretells of the judgment, we see a direct correlation between how the nations or the Gentiles treated His Jewish brethren during their times of greatest need, and resulting in how they were ultimately judged. It’s not that loving the Jew somehow earns us a ticket to heaven. But, it does bear witness to the authenticity of our love for God.

It’s why Jesus could say, "to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.” And, by the same token, "As you did it not to the least of these brothers of Mine, you did it not to Me.” In other words, we show our love for Christ in the way in which we tangibly demonstrate that love to His Jewish brethren.

2500 years ago, a Moabitess named Ruth made this remarkable statement to a Jewess named Naomi, a statement which the Jew will need to hear and see demonstrated by the Church in that day when the Jew will need her the most. "For where you go, I will go, and where you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and you’re God, my God. Where you die, I will die, and there I will be buried. Thus may the Lord do to me, and worse, if anything but death parts you and me.” Ruth got it! And, God saw fit to record the story of this, otherwise, simple woman in the Bible for all time. Why? So, that the Church of the future would also, "Get it!

Mordecai had this sobering counsel for Esther when her people were faced with annihilation, and the Church would do well to take it to heart. "Do not imagine that you in the king's palace can escape any more than all the Jews. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?”

So, what does this mean for the Church? Just as the full identity of Jesus was revealed to the Roman centurion as He hung before him on the Cross, so too, will Jesus be revealed to the Jew as they see the Church willing to endure the Cross for the sake of His brethren. It is for this very reason that the Church must be made aware and prepare for the days ahead when Israel and the Jew scattered abroad will need her the most.

It’s been said that the best thing you can do for a future spouse, even before you know who that might be, is to become strong in your faith. Likewise, the best thing the Church can do for the Jewish People in preparation for the difficult times that are yet to come when they will need her the most, is to become corporately strong in the faith, and functioning as God originally intended, "that she might serve the purposes of God in her generation.”

If the Church isn’t what she’s supposed to be in the present, she will have a very difficult time in being what she will be required to be in the future. The Scriptures tell us that prior to Christ’s return, it will be the most perilous time in World History, and especially for Jews and Christians, alike. But, they also tell us, that, for the Church, it will be the time of her greatest glory and ministry leading to the salvation of the Jewish People, that remnant of Israel, called according to the promise of the Everlasting Covenant.

We see the theological mandate encapsulated in Romans Chapter 11. I use the term, "encapsulated,” because this one chapter truly represents the sum total of Scripture concerning God’s Everlasting Covenant with Israel and what God intends that to mean for the Church, in theology, attitude, practice and overall responsibility. In Israel’s welfare, is the Church’s welfare, with their destinies inextricably linked, that apart from the remnant of Israel, the Church should not be made perfect.

(Fred London)

David- how do you see this playing out in reality?

Well, first of all, to begin to make adequate preparation for coming events, I believe the church needs to understand that His second coming and the end of the age Jesus was asked about and replied to did not mean He would come again in judgment in 70 AD and not make a second physical appearance at that time. The foundation for this type of Preterism is replacement theology, which long ago wrongfully rendered Israel null and void as far as having any relevant modern prophetic significance.

Contrary to what much of the church today believes, I do not think that the return and re-emergence of Israel in 1948 is the return and spiritual birth of a nation that the Hebrew prophets forecast and recorded. It was for sure an against all odds event allowed by God for sovereign reasons. Yet, there is too much difference between it and what the prophets spoke of regarding a return leading to a national and spiritual national renewal heralding the Messianic age (Isaiah 66:7-9). What is missing, I believe, from much of the modern church, is a knowledge of the Hebrew view of eschatology and the "time of the end" leading to the end of this present evil age. What did they mean when they referred to the coming of the kingdom of God, the day of the Lord, and a time of lasting national renewal after the rebels and unbelieving had been purged from the land? Why did all agree that the coming of the kingdom of God would be preceded by a time of unprecedented trouble just prior to this coming (Deut 4:30; Jer 30:7; Daniel 12:1; Matt 24:21; Rev 7:14). Even intertestamental rabbis and Jewish sources, outside the canon of the Bible, record a belief in this never before experienced time of trouble before the nation's spiritual rebirth. How does all this tie in with modern Israel?

All of God's dealings with Israel are done so within the perimeters of covenant. Modern Israel has, for the large part, not embraced the new covenant in Christ, so they are still confined within the blessings or curse motif of the Deuteronomic covenant(Deuteronomy 28-32). Part of the curses of the covenant was dispersion and exile from the land for disobedience. Far from being inviolable just because they are Jews and reside in Israel once again, the modern state presently remains in danger of further dispersion and exile from the land. They remain secular for the large part, which is a great transgression in the Lord's sight as they continue to rely on the arm of the flesh. I believe, therefore, that, under the chastising hand of the Antichrist, that the nation will once again be put to flight as sudden destruction will catch them unaware while they are crying peace and safety. "Then let those in Judea FLEE!” (Matthew 24:16-22). Flee from where? Judea is in Israel. This time of fleeing is the beginning of the unprecedented time of trouble and tribulation so often forecast by the prophets and Jesus Himself (Matthew 24:21).

As the modern state is once again experiences the bitter curses of the covenant and the residents of the land are once again driven into the nations, to be sifted a final time (Amos 9:9), it is hoped that there they will find a church prepared and waiting for them. This church would not point the finger in accusation toward them but would be willing to serve and lay down its life for them as far as possible. Anti-semitism will likely be at a renewed fever pitch at this time, and the Jew may not find any willing to help among all the nations. Except for the church! This final witness to them by the church in the wilderness of the nations will go a long way toward healing the historic riff between the synagogue and the church. The chief means within the church's witness would be to employ the use of prophetic scripture already fulfilled in the history of Israel. If these prophecies came true to the very letter, then the church would be able to use prophecy and explain to the once again wandering Jew why these events are occurring. It would be the witness of prophecy within the bonds of covenant. "And those of the people who understand shall instruct many” (Daniel 11:33). The main goal would be to guide them to the only place of safety found in Jesus. Even now, it might be prudent to consider beginning to prepare places of refuge, nourishment, and substainment for the outcasts from the land that will occur again sooner or later, likely sooner. If the church has prepared an answer for the Jews, it has prepared an answer for every man. I believe those who proclaim Israel today is inviolable and incapable of defeat are ignoring large portions of eschatological scripture simply because of their own ignorance and because it just does not sit well with them that a tragedy of colossal proportions still awaits world Jewry. How can we prepare now serve them during this time is a question we need to begin asking.

Quoting, This is why the church must not shrink from confronting Israel with the evidence of prophecy and of history's witness to the judgment of the covenant (Deut 28-32), regardless of its current state of biblical literacy. The witness of the prophetic Word, and the life that points to that witness, is still the only means of divinely sanctioned means of evangelism. The lack of Jewish biblical literacy only calls for the church's greater responsibility to educate itself in those critical themes that touch God's own witness as contemporary events compel Jewish consideration of the biblical categories of covenant and prophecy, of judgment and salvation. " (Reggie Kelly)

Christ returns AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days (Matthew 29:31). I believe then is when the true return to the land as envisioned by the prophets will begin. To view the modern state of Israel as still in danger and to be uprooted again is UNTHINKABLE in the minds of many, but as Art Katz once said, "The prophets cause you to have to think the unthinkable.” The wrath of the man of sin/Antichrist and the opposition of the nations will be no other than the final chastisement of the covenant. The death of the modern state will yet lead to its true resurrection, which is the foremost biblical pattern of all ”“ death before life. Christ modeled it exactly. So the nation is destined to undergo final suffering before glory and the establishment of the theocratic millennial kingdom. If those closest to Christ and the apostles in the earliest church were premillennial, then I find safety in their witness as I hold the view of a coming theocratic kingdom with saved Israel and Jerusalem established as the servant head of the nations. Meanwhile, how ready is the church to receive and nourish the wandering Jew who will appear once again in the wilderness of the nations?

In my opinion, as you hold to the view of a personal Antichrist as being somewhat absurd, I find it equally absurd to maintain the view that the second physical coming Christ was asked about happened in 70 AD. Replacement theology and its Preteristic offshoot have done as much to cloud the church's proper eschatological perspective as anything else. What many believe today is not what the Jews of Jesus' day believed regarding the "time of the end." We still owe the Jews a debt. Will we be ready? Much is at stake.

"...And when the dragon [Satan} saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman [Israel}who gave birth to the male Child, [Jesus Christ]. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she [the Jewish believers?] could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time, times, and half a time, away from the presence of the serpent [Satan]. And the serpent hurled water like a river out of his mouth after the woman [Jews] so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. But the earth helped the woman [Jews], and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon [Satan]had hurled out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman[Jews], and went off to make war with the rest of her children, [Gentile believers] who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus." To explain, he goes after all others in Christ Jesus [ You and me!] Revelation 12. Biblical....

"There was given to him [Anti-christ] a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven. It was also given to him to make war with the saints [those in Christ Jesus] and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, EVERYONE whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." Revelation 13 Bibilcal.....

"Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the APOSTASY COMES FIRST, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, [ANTI-CHRIST] the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness" 2 Thessalonians 2 Biblical......

Dear brethren, as I get older my greatest prayer is that our Great God would give me agape love for His people and for all people! I do agree with our brother here based on these scriptures and Mark 13 written to the Roman Gentiles, and Luke 21, and Matthew 24. We are going to come into a time very difficult, with a person called the Anti Christ in bodily form. Though perhaps due to my own lack of understanding I don't see our Jewish brethren alone in there coming persecution, but all of US when that imitator the Anti-Christ comes into the temple and proclaims himself to be God!

I know brethren, true brethren with camping bags packed for that moment! That moment the Anti-Christ comes into the temple! Brethren I know honestly know Christ! Again as we have seen in the biblical passages of scriptures our God will call some of us to suffer and not run at that time. He will call, however some of you too run to the mountains when this event happens!

When God Almighty does remember, He will have work for YOU in those mountains to help some that were not prepared as He prepared you! Maybe you even end up in a jail, but not all! I could write so much more, explain the four END TIME views much clearer, but I am not called to do such. May our great God have mercy on each of US through Christ Death, Resurrection, and our continual and Individual Repentance through CHRIST alone, and in His great mercy! Guide us each through Christ, by the empowering of His Holy Spirit. Do not be discouraged, GOD will guide you at that moment according to His plans concerning you, God has plans concerning each of us.}

With prayer and respect for all of you and my own hands I cannot retract this. God's will be done on earth as it already is in heaven.....

David- I know the OP is not about 70 AD (at least I did not intend it to turn it into that) but you wrote the following which seems to be directed at me:

//In my opinion, as you hold to the view of a personal Antichrist as being somewhat absurd, I find it equally absurd to maintain the view that the second physical coming Christ was asked about happened in 70 AD.//

I have never said such a thing nor do I believe that now. I do, however, believe that Jesus did come in judgment against Israel in 70 AD(it’s obvious) but I don’t believe that was a "second coming.”
””””
EDIT: you are correct that I do not believe in a future literal individual who will be "the Antichrist.” But I don’t believe the second coming was in 70 AD.
””””””

That aside, I asked how you think this worldwide persecution against the Jews will come to be and how the Church is expected to help. I have a hard time envisioning it. If there is some sort of "Nazi” worldwide sentiment and enforcement how can millions of Jews hide in the wilderness, or in churches for that matter?

I understand your basic premise- that the Church must assist Jewish refugees, but it is not clear how/why they will become refugees. Israel will spark a global nuclear conflagration before it allows that to happen.

Quote: If there is some sort of "Nazi” worldwide sentiment

There is a "nazi" worldwide sentiment you'll find it in Islam and on the left.. It is in those two groups you find the anti-christ spirit.

Hi
It was not the grandfather that wrote this which is important as he is using his grandfathers death as his authority not scripture and did not use any scripture to back up his views.

God is outside of time and the bible says he is all powerful and can do more than one thing at a time.He can be unhappy with Cain and happy with Abel all at the same time.
If the logic is to be carried true to the end then before we celebrate anything we will have to wait for everything...
I would rather the writer was honest and say I am a post tribulation believer,I have a huge problem with the subject of grace but i will replace grace with conditional grace which is not grace at all,urs staff

Colin- if there is huge anti Semitic sentiment on "the left” then why are almost all Jews (in America at least) left leaning if not radical left? I dare say the vast majority voted for Biden and the leftist agenda.

Hi TMK,
The left are anti semitic just look at the British Labour Party whose leader was suspended over the issue.
The Labour Party also has Jewish members.
The distinction I think is between old school socialist left and the liberal left.Many Jews believe in socialism,look at the make up of Israeli Politics.
The liberals are not alone anti semetic they are anti religion.They hate Israel so much because they are a religous state .They only support Islamic countries because they strike against western demorcracy which they hate as it stands in the way of a liberal authoritarian utopia.
If you ask a true liberal they will say that the liberal socialist left are not liberal at and they hijacked the term.
Just like their is huge confusion with some Christians who tought it actually was a good thing to vote for Biden ,their is a huge confusion with some Jewish voters who voted Biden but dont understand the hidden agenda ,urs staff

"Replacement theology and its Preteristic offshoot have done as much to cloud the church's proper eschatological perspective as anything else...We still owe the Jews a debt."

Preoccupation with, and a schewed idea of, who are the chosen race, 'has done as much to cloud the church's proper eschatological perspective as anything else'.

I'll keep singing;

I had a debt I could not pay,
He paid the debt He did not owe,
I needed someone,
To wash my sins away.
And now I sing a brand new song,
"Amazing grace” all day long,
Christ Jesus paid the debt,
That I could never pay.

Let there be no racism, partiality, or favoritism among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people.

John 1:11-13 says,

He came to his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Thank you Docs for posting. There is such a precision in the title and sentiment of the article. The God of us Christians is known as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The entire divine revelation from Genesis to Revelation was written by Jews. I personally agree with the view that Luke also was a Jew. Our Lord and Savior (the Messiah of Israel) is a Jew. The twelve disciples of our Lord were Jews. I'm reminded of the great quote "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church". Church history tells us that everyone of the disciples was put to death for their testimony of Jesus. The greatest apostle to the Gentiles, who explicitly told us in Romans 11:25-29 that after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in "all Israel shall be saved in accordance with His Covenant with Israel) was a Jew, The first New Testament Churches were composed primarily of Jews. The eternal destination of all believers is a city called the New Jerusalem. And yet somehow, there is a sizeable contingent of Christians who are entirely apathetic to Israel/ The Jews welfare is truly astounding. I definitely give a hearty amen to what the brother shared about us owing a debt of gratitude. The greatest way that we can repay that debt is not just with some kind of sentimentality about the plight of the Jewish people or a knee-jerk approval of the political/militaristic actions of the state of Israel, but to declare to them the glorious Gospel there Messiah has come and his name is Jesus.

Just today I was thinking about our dear brother Paul. It was he who wrote in his letter to the Philippians that for him to live was Christ. In Galatians he declared, I am crucified with Christ and it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me, and the life which he now lived in the flesh he lived in the faith of the Son of God. Paul's estimation of the Lord Jesus Christ quite literally reached the third heavens and his personal devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ is without question. In Acts 21, Luke records how all those who were present at the house of Philip the evangelist pleaded with Paul to not go Jerusalem where Agabus, prophesied by the Holy Spirit that Paul would be captured and delivered by the Gentiles. How did Paul respond? "What do you mean to weep and to break mine heart? For I am ready not be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem FOR THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS. I don't think that there is a serious Christian that would question the depth of Paul's walk in the Spirit. He did have a brief slip up in Acts 23 when he in haste spoke a harsh word to the Ananias the High Priest. But even then, it was out of ignorance and he repented. According to his own words, he did not know it was the High Priest and he immediately recalled and quoted the scripture that forbids speaking evil of the ruler of the people. All of this is to say that if there was ever a man that walked in the spirit, Paul was such a one.

Why then would there be any room to interpret Paul's great heaviness and continual sorrow of heart, even going so far as saying that he could wish himself accursed from Christ for his brethren, his kinsmen according to the flesh to be some mere sentimentality or nationalistic/ethnic pride. As most who know the Scriptures are aware, this is not the first time that a supremely Godly man expressed such feeling. Moses did the same in the Old Testament. After the children of Israel had sinned against God by building and then worshipping the golden calf, God was about to do away with them entirely until Moses pleaded on their behalf. "If Thou wilt forgive their sin-; and if not, blot me, I pray Thee, out of Thy book which Thou has written." Could both Moses and Paul both have "missed it" on this point or did they know something deeper about God and were pleading on that ground. I think it's the latter. These men knew God. They knew that He was a God of covenant and that he had made a covenant with Abraham and his descendants that HE was not going to turn from. They understood that His relationship with them as that of a Father to his son. Hosea 11:1 says, "When Israel was a child then, I loved him and called My son out of Egypt." A few verses later, The Lord God declares, (7) And My People are bent to backsliding from Me.: though they called them to the Most High, none at all would exalt Him. Yet in spite of such rebellion, He says, (8)How shall I give thee up Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? Mine heart is turned within Me, My repentings are kindled together. (9) I will not execute the fierceness of Mine anger, I will not return to destory Ephraim.. I don't think that it is an overstatement to say that the knowledge of God's steadfast love for us New Testament believers is demonstrated first in God's steadfast love for Israel. If he ceases to love Israel, then he may very well cease to love me, but no one walking away from reading the Old Testament Scriptures and a true understanding of the New Testament can walk away with any question as to God's enduring love for Israel and by extension us who have put our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, getting back to the subject at hand which pertains to the church's relationship with Israel (i.e. the Jewish people) in the last days - how in light of all that the Jews have done for us Gentiles, how can we not be burdened for their welfare and salvation?

brotherAbey,

……in light of all that the Jews have done for us Gentiles……

Gentiles are saved by grace through faith and not by any works of the Jews.

Eph. 2:8-9 ”“
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We boast in God alone.

1 Cor. 1:30-31 ”“
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

Ps. 115:1 ”“
Not to us, O LORD, not to us,
But to Your name give glory
Because of Your lovingkindness, because of Your truth.

No distinction between Jews and Gentiles:

Rom. 3:9-10, 23 ”“
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE………for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom. 10:12-13 ”“
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Gal. 3:28-29 ”“
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Rom. 11:34-35 ”“
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

For from Him and through Him and to Him ARE ALL THINGS. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Blessings

Hi Branchvine,
Every Christian whether they are Jew or Gentile is saved by by Grace through faith and not by any works
I think this is not the question ,I guess what Abby is saying is we owe alot to early Christians and old Testament saints that came before us ,we are not saved by them but we can still owe a debt of gratitude.This gratitude does not answer the question on Gods relationship with the Jews since the first century.
It clear that God has further dealings with the Jews and its obvious that once Israel was reformed in 1948 that the clock is ticking towards that day of reckoning.Its also clear that God judges nations and people groups.
Anyone in my opinion who says that Israel is finished with is in deniel and the notion that Israels current miracle existance is an accident or on a par with other nations existance is in super deniel ,urs staff

Qoute:
Gentiles are saved by grace through faith and not by any works of the Jews.

/David- I know the OP is not about 70 AD (at least I did not intend it to turn it into that) but you wrote the following which seems to be directed at me:

In my opinion, as you hold to the view of a personal Antichrist as being somewhat absurd, I find it equally absurd to maintain the view that the second physical coming Christ was asked about happened in 70 AD./

I have never said such a thing nor do I believe that now. I do, however, believe that Jesus did come in judgment against Israel in 70 AD (it’s obvious) but I don’t believe that was a "second coming.”/

If that is not your position, then I was wrong in stating so. I honestly thought that was how you viewed this, but if not, let me be the first to openly apolologize. That's not a small mistake and therefore bears correcting which I receive and acknowledge. My bad and my apologies.

/That aside, I asked how you think this worldwide persecution against the Jews will come to be and how the Church is expected to help. I have a hard time envisioning it. If there is some sort of "Nazi” worldwide sentiment and enforcement how can millions of Jews hide in the wilderness, or in churches for that matter?/

In the wilderness, they will find places of refuge already prepared I hope. "Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast tio the earth, hre persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent (Rev 12:13-14).

Perhaps the church will have already acted because of its foreknowledge that this event was coming and in anticipation had already prepared places of nourishment and safety for even these still unsaved Jews.

"And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples(Gentiles), and there I will plead my cause with you face to face.” (Ezekiel 20:35).

Maybe the face of God they will see in the wilderness of the nations in a future dispersion and exile will be that of a Gentile willing to lay down their life for them and stand with them during the most intense hour their nation has ever known. No wagging the finger In their face by the Gentiles gloating over their misfortune. But a willing SERVANTHOOD will to embrace them in their time of extreme adversity. Being prepared would include being willing to show them from their own scriptures what has happened to them and why it has happened, all with the goal of pointing them to Christ who is the only place of safety.

The wrath of the man of sin/ Antichrist will be of the same mold as that of the Nazis except set on fire by hell ten times more. Hiding Jews during this time will be a Corrie ten Boom type of effort on a much grander scale.

/I understand your basic premise- that the Church must assist Jewish refugees, but it is not clear how/why they will become refugees. Israel will spark a global nuclear conflagration before it allows that to happen./

The HOW is that they will become refugees because the man of sin will loose his hand on this physical seed of Abraham (I didn't say spiritual seed) and make a final effort to eliminate them. "Therefore when you when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those in Judea FLEE to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your FLIGHT not be in the winter or on the sabbath. For THEN (at that time) there will be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as not has been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be again. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved” (Matthew 24:15-22). What will the church be doing during this time?

The Jews will be forced to flee and it will be the greateset time of tribulationthis race and nation has ever seen (see Daniel 12:1). The latter day invasions of the land Ezekiel wrote of will begin also.

The WHY is if they are not in the new covenant in Christ, they are still under the curses of the old covenant.

"And evil will befall you in the latter days, because you will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands” (Moses ”“ Deut 31:29).

"After all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I,even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins” (Lev 26:27-28).

As great as the modern state is, it has honored God only in lip service and has produced a secular humanistic stater through the power of the flesh. This work of their hands does appear in the Lord's eyes as it may appear to otters and many in the church. It still has rebellion and the pride of its power as its backbone.

33 will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste. 34 Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 As long as it lies desolate it shall rest””for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it. 36 And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee; they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues. 37 They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues; and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies. 38  You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. 39  And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands; also in their fathers’ iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away. (Lev 26:33-39).

63 And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.
64  "Then the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known””wood and stone. 65And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. 67 In the morning you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were evening!’ And at evening you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were morning!’ because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see. (Deut 28:64-67)

Exile among the nations and finding no rest among those nations and fear of heart while among the nations. This traceable Jewish experience in history has borne out that God still deals with them within the perimeters of covenant. If exile happens again, can the church have been forged and become large enough in heart to receive these again wandering Jews (finding no rest for the sole of their foot) and be a source of nourishment and instruction to the while pointing them to Christ? The very presence of a nurturing church during this time may go a good ways toward softening their hearts to Christ. As of now, many Jews still rightfully see the church as one of their chief persecutors over history's course. We sure have not provoked them to jealousy. In the natural, who deserves less compassion than Israel? Yet, if I CAN LOVE ISRAEL EVEN IN THEIR PRODIGAL UNBELIEF, I can become capable of loving every man in their unbelief. Loving Israel is a on the job object lesson in loving the unlovely and non deserving which is at the heart of the gospel.

/Israel will spark a global nuclear conflagration before it allows that to happen./

They will have been deceived and will be caught totally unawares. When they cry peace and safety then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION will come upon them. "Because you have said, 'We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol we are in agreement, when the overflowing scourge passes through, it will not come to us, for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood we have hidden ourselves” (Isaiah 28:15).Their reliance on a nuclear arsenal will be a part of the very thing God desires to break them from. If they believe their safety lies in their arsenals then they still rely on the arm of the flesh - "I will break the pride of your power” (Lev 26:19; see also Deut 32:36; Daniel 12:7). God will break the pride of their power in every way so when they find themselves dispersed again and devoid of anything to save them but the Lord, then He will have pity on them once again once their power is gone.

"Yet for all that,, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them; Bot for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought oput of ther land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I will be their God; I am the LORD” (Lev 26:44-45).

Christ will eventually return to Israel and then the true Jewish return from the nations as spoken by the prophets will begin as the nation will have been borne again in one day at the revelation of Christ as they will have seen Him for Who He really is.

Meanwhile, I believe the church should start preparing for a bewildered and likely panicked Jew suddenly dispersed again. Jews in the nations are destined to become the hunted Jews once again. I pray the church will not thumb their noses at them as in times past and be complicit in their demise. Much is at stake, not only the coming physical survival of Jewry but also their spiritual survival and welfare in Christ.

David- thanks for your response.

I wanted to make sure you saw my Edit in my post that you quoted. You are correct that I do not believe in a literal future person who will be the Antichrist but I do not believe the second coming was in 70 AD.

What you say is interesting but I just have a very hard time believing it can happen today, or in the near future.

Why will the entire world all of a sudden hate Jews so badly that it will be legal to hunt and kill them? Obviously there are Jews all over the world. What do you think they will do to provoke such a reaction?

And when you say "the wilderness” what do you mean? How can the church set up structures of protection in the middle of the desert that will not be located by technology?

I understand the gist of what your argument is, I just have a very hard time understanding the practicality of it. 99.9% of the evangelical churches have no idea what you are talking about.

Hi TMK,
I think if you look at time times and half a time in the bible it shows a a pattern that is repeated at the time of the end.
When 3 and half years is mentioned in the bible in whatever form 42 months or time and times we see that its a specific period of time when Elijah appears.
3 1/2 years + Elijah + An Anti Christ Figure Ahab
3 1/2 years + John The Baptist + An Anti Christ figure Herod
3 1/2 years + The Two Witnesses + The Ulitimate Anti Christ

Elijah in whatever form has many roles to fulfill,The important ones are
1 He battles against Jezabel
2 He Preaches or Ministers to the Anti Christ
3 He makes way or gets ready for the Lord
4 He gets the Bride of Christ ready (friend of the bridegroom)
5 He begins and ends the 3 1/2 years

Elijah comes before the great and terrible day of the Lord ,the cross was the great day and the end is the terrible day.
Their is no end without a battle with Jezebel ,Preaching against the Anti Christ and the Bride being made ready by the friend of the groom Elijah,
urs staff

staff says,

"Elijah comes before the great and terrible day of the Lord ,the cross was the great day and the end is the terrible day."

Not so. The great and terrible Day of the Lord speaks of a singular Day. These two words, great and terrible, are used to describe the Day. Do not make them two separate events, because they are not.

Here's where this prophecy is found;

"Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD." Malachi 4:5

I will send; though the spirit of prophecy cease for four hundred years, yet at the expiring of those years you shall have one sent, as great as Elijah, and therefore he is now called Elijah, that shall prepare Messiah’s way.

Elijah; not the same in person who reproved idolatrous Israel, who destroyed Baal, though both Jews and many Christians would gladly have it so, in favour of some errors they have adopted and would maintain. But this person here called Elijah was John Baptist, as is clear from Matthew 17:12,13.

Elias is come, and they have done to him whatsoever they listed. Then the disciples understood that he spake of John the Baptist. And he was that Elias, if they would receive him, Matthew 11:14. Elias, was to come when Malachi lived; Elias was come, and the Jews had ill treated him, and Herod had beheaded him, when Christ here lived; this Elijah then was John the Baptist, who came.

in the spirit and power of Elias, Luke 1:17, and therefore bears his name in this prophecy.

The prophet; who foretold Christ the true Messiah’s sudden manifestation, who indeed was already among them, but had not yet discovered himself; on whom he persuades the Jews to believe, and receive his person and his law, Luke 1:15-17 Mark 1:7,8; who was greater than a prophet, Matthew 11:9; nor doth John’s denying himself to be a prophet, John 1:21, in their sense contradict this.

Before; that is, immediately before; so he was born six months before Christ, and began his preaching but few years before Christ began to exercise his public office.

Great: this day was great indeed, yet it is not the day of the last and great judgment, though the Jews perversely affirm it to evade the acknowledgment of Messiah’s being already come. But this day of Messiah was great for the alterations he was to make in worship and church affairs, taking down the Mosaic ceremonies and enlarging the church; great for the miracles he wrought, and empowered others to do; great for the reconciliation between God and man, for the conquering of Satan, and casting him out of his throne. It was great too against the Jews his obstinate enemies.

Dreadful: it was a time of vengeance executed upon a people whose sins were full ripe; and such sufferings fell on the Jews at that time, as may very well be an emblem of the day of judgment, and which may be remotely meant hereby. But the first, the literal and plain, meaning of the words refer to the times of vengeance upon the Jews from either the birth, or first preaching, or death of Christ to the final desolation of the city and temple, and irrecoverable overthrow of their government, of which Christ speaks at large, Mt 24 Mr 13; which places point out first the sad and dismal miseries of the Jews, and next, by accommodation, the end of the world and last judgment. Such a description of this day, Joel 2:31, by St. Peter interpreted and applied to this day of Christ, Acts 2:20, more fully clears this. The Lord; Jesus Christ, preaching to the Jews, calling them to repentance, reproving their sins, encouraging their compliance, threatening their impenitence, and labouring to gather the children of Jerusalem together under his wings, but they would not, Matthew 23:34-39; and therefore at last destroying by the Romans these obstinate and incorrigible sinners. (Matthew Poole)

Hi Savannah
I have to repectfully say what your saying is accurate to a point but misses the big picture of Elijah.
The process of looking at that scripture is called telescoping where their is a gap in the time as if you looked at it from a distance.Also it is clear that the day of the lord has mulitiple applications and fulfillments.

Elijah was Elijah
John was Elijah
The Two Witnesses are Elijah
And through their ministry the end time Church are Elijah or have the Spirit of Elijah.

I noticed that you didnt comment on the pattern of Elijah which is only clear when it is pointed out,
Only by understanding that MT Carmel and Pentecost are in effect the same thing can you understand what the Two Witnesses are all about.
Basically Elijah comes to restore and in the end the Two Witnesses Restore Apostolic Authority to the Church .
All Israel went out to see Elijah
Elijah on Mount Carmel restores the altar by putting the 12 stones in place, putting the wood in order ,covering the sacrifice with water (12 portions) and then at the evening sacrifice the fire falls and all the water is "licked up" and their is only one thing i know that licks.A tongue
Then we have
All Judea and the Surrounds went out to see John
John baptises all the Apostles (12)
He then Baptises Jesus and what does Jesus say
permit it so that all things will be fulfilled
Jesus was fulfilling the Mt Carmel Prophetic Pattern where Elijah pours water over the sacrifice.
We have wood in order the cross.
Then the last thing that happens one sentence before Pentecost is that Peter says we must choose another to replace Judas and the criteria is that he had to be with them from John and thats the key here.
This shows that all the Apostles came under Johns ministry before they came under Jesus Ministry
And finally the fire fell and they had "tongues" of fire.

The pattern is undeniable to be honest and from knowing this we check where the three and half year pattern happens again.
And that is the Two Witnesses .They have all the powers Elijah and Elisha had and they come with repentance signified by sackcloth.
Elijah is raptured and so are the Two etc and their is way more similarities,
urs staff

/It was not the grandfather that wrote this which is important as he is using his grandfathers death as his authority not scripture and did not use any scripture to back up his views./

I'm confused as to who you refer to when you say, "It was not the grandfather who wrote this." Do you mean the Jewish believer who wrote this who is the one whose grandfather perished in Auschwitz? Or do you mean me? And how is the grandfather being used as the authority and not scripture when the grandfather was not even mentioned?

/I would rather the writer was honest and say I am a post tribulation believer, I have a huge problem with the subject of grace but i will replace grace with conditional grace which is not grace at all, urs staff/

Not trying to be smart aleck or anything, but I'm clueless as to what you mean here.

/I have a huge problem with the subject of grace but i will replace grace with conditional grace which is not grace at all,urs staff/

???

Hi Staff,

It clear that God has further dealings with the Jews and its obvious that once Israel was reformed in 1948 that the clock is ticking towards that day of reckoning.Its also clear that God judges nations and people groups.
Anyone in my opinion who says that Israel is finished with is in deniel and the notion that Israels current miracle existance is an accident or on a par with other nations existance is in super deniel

The future will reveal the truth.

Meanwhile, we will not be distracted.

"I am doing a great work and cannot come down” (Neh. 6:3).

We will keep our eyes fixed on Jesus.

Heb. 12:1-2 (Amp):
…………stripping off every unnecessary weight and the sin which so easily and cleverly entangles us, let us run with endurance and active persistence the race that is set before us, [looking away from all that will distract us and] focusing our eyes on Jesus, who is the Author and Perfecter of faith [the first incentive for our belief and the One who brings our faith to maturity], who for the joy [of accomplishing the goal] set before Him endured the cross, disregarding the shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God [revealing His deity, His authority, and the completion of His work].

We are exhorted to pray for ALL men for God desires ALL men (Jews and Gentiles equally) to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Gospel is commanded to be preached to ALL nations (Jewish and Gentile nations equally),(Mat. 28:18-20, Acts 1:8).

God alone is exalted and to Him we give our thanks and praises.

Psalms 148:13 ”“
Let them praise the name of the LORD,
For His name alone is exalted;
His glory is above earth and heaven.

Ps. 106:1 ”“
Praise the LORD!
Oh give thanks to the LORD, for He is good;
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.

Heb. 13:14-15 ”“
For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come. Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name.

Heb. 12:28 ”“
Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe;

Heb. 13:20 ”“
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of THE ETERNAL COVENANT, even Jesus our Lord, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Blessings

The saddest thing about this discussion is that many don't understand what Christ has accomplished

All the Scriptures are about Jesus Christ, even where there is no explicit prediction. That is, there is a fullness of implication in all .(from desiring God)

It is Christ who brings the promises of all of the covenants to fruition. It is Christ who brings all of creation into reconciliation with God, thereby ensuring that God will never again have to wipe out all life on earth.
(Legioneer Ministries)

In Christ, it doesn’t matter about your ethnic identity, your gender, or your station in life. If you are in Christ, you are one of God’s chosen people and you stand to inherit all that God has promised. It is only through Christ that anyone can inherit God’s kingdom
(got questions.org)

About the church:
Church leaders are to surrender ultimate leadership to the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the One who leads and determines the teachings and practices of the church.
Men's opinions don't really matter and negative opinions are not helpful.

About us:
Jesus desires that we also love the church. "Let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another””and all the more as you see the Day approaching” (Hebrews 10:24”“25). (got questions.org)

May the Lord have mercy on us !

Hi Docs
Put another way the grandson who was not anywhere near a concentration camp wrote this and is using his grandfathers experience as his authority not scripture.We dont know what his grandfathers thoughts were on the subject.
All Post Trib believers I know believe you can lose your salvation but to believe that you need conditional grace .You have to measure grace if you believe this,
It is obvious that the writer is a Post Trib believer and instead of being honest and using scripture to prove his point is using experience ,
Hope that clears up any confusion,urs staff

Hi Branchinvine
Why bother reading scripture about the future if thats the case ,scripture can never ever be a distraction.God is always telling us about the future and its never ever a distraction.
God just wasted his time writing scripture about the future because its a distraction?
urs staff

qoute
The future will reveal the truth.

Meanwhile, we will not be distracted

hi deogloria,
To be honest I dont know where these people are who dont understand what Christ accomplished .All the posters I see here know perfectly what Christ accomplished,urs staff

qoute
The saddest thing about this discussion is that many don't understand what Christ has accomplished

Hi Staff,

Why bother reading scripture about the future if thats the case ,scripture can never ever be a distraction.God is always telling us about the future and its never ever a distraction.
God just wasted his time writing scripture about the future because its a distraction?

You believe that Daniel’s Seventieth Week is in the future and in that prophecy the Jewish nation and antichrist and his covenant are the centrepiece.

I believe that Daniel’s Seventieth Week has already taken place. It was the grandest week in all time and eternity in which the Lord Jesus finished the wonderful works for our salvation by His death and resurrection and brought in the New Eternal Covenant that alone can make us righteous, holy and perfect. In that Seventieth Week, Christ was the centrepiece and to Him all glory are given.

And as far as the east is from the west, the two views will never meet, and we can only wait for the future to reveal the truth.

In the meantime, whatever takes our eyes off the Lord Jesus is a distraction.

Blessings

/Put another way the grandson who was not anywhere near a concentration camp wrote this and is using his grandfathers experience as his authority not scripture.We dont know what his grandfathers thoughts were on the subject.
All Post Trib believers I know believe you can lose your salvation but to believe that you need conditional grace .You have to measure grace if you believe this,
It is obvious that the writer is a Post Trib believer and instead of being honest and using scripture to prove his point is using experience ,
Hope that clears up any confusion,urs staff/

It clears up some confusion but at the same time shows me you have misinterpreted the words and motives for what Fred London wrote. I am the one who mentioned Fred's grandfather just to give some information on who Fred is. You seem insensitive to a large degree toward this event in Fred's family. Fred is very well aware of scripture being the final authority, and again, he didn't even mention his grandfather, I did. And again, there are more than a few scriptures giving us indication of the danger Jewish people will face in the time of the end.

I don't know what your experience is, but not all Post Trib believers I know believe you can lose your salvation. Your accusation that he is being dishonest is not true and comes from presumption on your part. You have judged according to the flesh and not the Spirit.

I would say you have misread, misinterpreted his motives and accused him of being dishonest all in one. On all three you are wrong. I don't think you understood his post at all bro.

To quote/paraphrase Mr. Paul Washer; all of our eschatology will be perfect five seconds after Christ's return.

It is my understanding that sermonindex exists to promote, facilitate, and otherwise bring about revival (to the degree that man is able to participate with God in doing so.)

I've only been back on here for a short time but it seems like a huge focus in the forums is discussing things peripheral to that particular end.

I don't know whether the church will be spared the seven years of tribulation, be taken up half way through, or if there will even be a rapture. And I don't care all that much. I trust God. If He gives me the option, I'm staying so that I can have that much more time to labor.

I love the Jews. I spent time in Israel ministering to the Jews. But I, as a gentile believer, do not exist for them, I exist for Christ. One person may be called to minister to the Jews and another may be called to minister to the lost in China, a third may be called to reach out to the homeless in NYC.

In any Christian circle I've ever encountered, people show up with their special revelation and their special mission. And they act like everyone else is off unless they're just as concerned with their favorite issue as they are. All it does for me is wear me out and turn me off.

I love Jesus. I've been called to America and to intercede on her behalf. The church in our day, at least in the western world, is in a sorry state. I love sermonindex because it provided unctionized messages for me at a time when I couldn't find them anywhere else (back around 2000-2004-ish.) I also love sermonindex because of its stated goal.

Folks we need to learn to pray. We need to learn to be still before the Lord. Maybe we do have something unique to share with the church, some special revelation or insight, but I think more often than not, we hear something from God (or think we heard something from Him) or we think we see something clearly that others aren't seeing... and we run off half-cocked without waiting on God to give us the full picture, waiting on Him to give us understanding and instruction.

I jumped back on here after all this time because I was hoping to encounter other brothers and sisters who really feel the burden of prayer for places like the United States and Canada. Folks who're called as intercessors.

I'm not saying Christians shouldn't discuss any particular issue... I just thought the focus here was supposed to be prayer and revival.

Hi Docs
I can only comment on what you have written and what you had written doesnt say that he didnt mention his grandfather.
Without the grandfather been mentioned their is no story here and the post lacks any authority.We are meant to listen to this man because he is Jewish and his grandfather died in Auchwitz.
I understand the post as you wrote it.If their is any confusion its on your side im afraid.If you want to argue that their is no rapture fine no problem but do it without getting someone elses name involved like Fred London.
If thats what you believe fair enough .
I made no accusations ,i just commented on a post that was that was claiming that because a persons grandfather was in the holocaust then he should be listened too.
I thought that was a dishonest arguement against a rapture because it didnt contain any scripture.It the same as the Corrie Ten Boon arguement that because she saw tribulation personally that their is no rapture and every one goes through the great tribulation .I personally have never met a post trib believer that believed in once saved always saved,
I understand the post quite well which is to argue against a pre trib rapture but my objection is that the authority of the piece comes by mentioning that his grandfather died in Auchwitz,urs staff

I put in the part about his grandfather at the very last second almost as an afterthought so those on the forum might know a little bit about Fred. It was not mean to try and stack the deck in any way in mine or Fred's favor.

/Without the grandfather been mentioned their is no story here and the post lacks any authority. We are meant to listen to this man because he is Jewish and his grandfather died in Auchwitz./

If I hadn't included the part about his grandfather then the post of his comments would lack authority? In what way?

/If you want to argue that their is no rapture fine no problem but do it without getting someone elses name involved like Fred London./

Where was I arguing against a rapture? The post was meant to share comments of how a Jewish brother I know feels about certain attitudes he sees in some pre-trib believers.

/I thought that was a dishonest argument against a rapture because it didn't contain any scripture/

The same reply from me as just above. It wasn't about a rapture or the lack thereof. You missed Fred's point altogether. He was speaking of attitudes of some pre-trib advocates.

/I understand the post quite well which is to argue against a pre trib rapture but my objection is that the authority of the piece comes by mentioning that his grandfather died in Auchwitz,/

No, you don't understand the post at all. You see as me being dishonest and clandestinely arguing against a rapture by pulling someone else into it. You don't understand the post at all.

Fred's point was:

"There are some who teach, even to the point of being giddy, that Jesus will be hosting a "marriage supper” on the heels of a pre-tribulation rapture,” lasting the full seven years of the Seventieth Week of Daniel. That would mean that there would be great feasting and rejoicing in heaven right on through to the end of the "Time of Jacob’s Trouble.” Just ponder that for a moment..."

"There is a strange, and I will even go so far as to say, a perverse disconnect when believers can read Scriptures like Romans 9, 10 and 11 and can come up with the "blessed hope” as being that of an imminent rapture of the Church, with no thought of having any responsibility in Israel’s redemption, or as one man has expressed it, a mentality that says, "Jacob’s Trouble” is "Jacob’s Problem.”

"There is a serious disconnect here, and worse, your testimony to the Jew just got tossed into the refuse heap!” And, what a perverse disconnect from the reality of what the vast majority of the Church is subjected to on a daily basis throughout much of the world. We should be embarrassed."(END)

Fred's grievance is that many profess a love for Israel yet believe when Israel's worst time of trouble to ever befall the nation and world Jewry comes many of those same professors of their love believe they will be gone and in the process of being married to the Savior of Israel while the Jews will be left alone on earth to face the music by themselves during the final great tribulation. Fred made note that this type of attitude may cause your Christian witness to the Jew to get tossed into the refuse heap!”

That was Fred's point, which is far from me making a dishonest argument against the rapture.

/What you say is interesting but I just have a very hard time believing it can happen today, or in the near future./

That is understandable. I find it incredible also, but I am willing to let prophecy be my guide. The end of the age will be a very trying and dangerous time for Jews and Christian alike.

/Why will the entire world all of a sudden hate Jews so badly that it will be legal to hunt and kill them? Obviously there are Jews all over the world. What do you think they will do to provoke such a reaction?/

The singular fact that they are Jews will provoke the reaction. Why - because they are Jews. In the years preceding WWII and the holocaust they Jews in Europe were doing nothing to harm anyone. They were mainly just going about their business and contributing to the culture. The type of anti-semitism that suddenly raised its hand against them has always been so non rational and without reason or logic that it is my belief it has supernatural origins. It has never been natural and I believe will manifest itself strongly again before the end of this present evil age.

/And when you say "the wilderness” what do you mean? How can the church set up structures of protection in the middle of the desert that will not be located by technology?/

The wilderness doesn't have to be in the middle of a desert or similar place I don't think. If they are dispersed from the land of Israel again into the Gentile nations that would be their wilderness. The wilderness could be a hide out cellar or maybe a place of refuge prepared beforehand for the Jews because we know these things are going to happen. I'm thinking the church may increasingly be in a wilderness of sorts also as society and its increasing evil will likely soon begin to turn against the church with increasing stridency. We need to be able and prepared to witness and minister to increasingly fearful Gentiles also. Preparing for the Jew doesn't mean turning our back on Gentiles who need the Lord. All men need him of course.

/I understand the gist of what your argument is, I just have a very hard time understanding the practicality of it. 99.9% of the evangelical churches have no idea what you are talking about./

Maybe many, but I wouldn't say 99.9%. Like I said, it's my opinion that replacement theology along with non literal interpretation of prophecy have taken their toll. The biblical Hebrew view needs to be restored.

Thanks bro for listening. Blessings.

"And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins” (Rom. 11:26-27).

I have long been intrigued by the phrase, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer.” Clearly Israel’s deliverance is a final, eschatological, closure event. But how is it to be effected? There is something in the heart-cry of David in v.7 of Psalm 14, "O that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion!” that suggests something more than the physical locus of the Returning Lord’s capitol and Kingdom, but something of the character of the King and His Kingdom obtained finally in the Church that is the key to Israel’s deliverance!

This would be, it seems to me, every bit in keeping with the release that comes to the physical creation from the bondage of corruption that "waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God” (Rom. 8:19f.). Acts 3:21 is another indication that God has bound Himself with regard to the release of His Coming and His Kingdom, and that there needs to be the fulfillment of certain conditions, "the restoration of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the age began.” As I have tried to indicate in other papers, notably the article on Ez.37, the Church is the principal agent in that restoration””but the Church of an ultimate kind! By that I mean, a corporate people brought to full prophetic and apostolic maturity sharing the character of God.

In a word, the King of glory, the Lord of Hosts is "at the gates” (Psalm 24:7), but as Karl Barth elaborates, "A bolt is fixed in place, it requires certain hands, different hands from our own, to open. ‘Clean hands’ are required for it…men with other hearts than our own…He who has ‘a pure heart,’ say the words of the Psalm, can ‘ascend into the hill of the Lord’ [i.e. Mt. Zion]…men who have ‘not lifted up their souls to falsehood”. (From "Come Holy Spirit," Wm. Eerdmans Co., Grand Rapids, Mi., 1978. p.6).

Is this not a description of "sons”? Can those who are able to approach that mount be of a character and kind that is different or other than that of Zion itself? For "Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord, or who shall stand in His holy place? "Clean, guiltless hands open the bolt that closes the entrance to the redeeming and freeing things [The salvation for all who are Israel and the turning away of ungodliness from Jacob] which God has to say to us”(ibid., p.6). Is it not to be expected that the Church of the Last Days that can "provoke them to jealousy” (Rom. 11:11) is exactly that ‘Zion,’ and provokes Israel, long-chafed by the historical Church’s insensitivities and brutalities?

How compatible is such a view with the testimony of the prophetic Scriptures that speak of the method that God employs in effecting Israel’s final redemption out of Last Days’ extremity?

"Therefore, behold, I will allure [woo] her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak tenderly unto her. And I will give her vineyards there, and the Valley of Achor for a door of hope” (Hosea 2:14-15). Parentheses and emphasis mine.

"And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead [entreat] with you face to face” (Ez. 20:35).

That latter phrase I have always interpreted as revealing the character of God (His unconditional love and sacrificial mercies) in the face (i.e., the visibly demonstrated, consistent and unaffected demeanor) of His people despite the most excruciating demands of a frustrated, panic-ridden Jewry.

How much then, in light of the mandate which is exclusively ours and one that cannot be fulfilled on any grounds other than our total sanctification, should we welcome the most stringent dealings of God in preparation thereof? How much will we welcome the intensive conditions of true church life whereby they might be obtained? Should we not welcome the necessary judgments of God of hidden things as being the very grace of God? If we are to be the agents for opening the gates that the King of glory be come in, "We must divorce ourselves from the old existence, we must become ashamed of our imprisonment” (Barth, p.7), for how can the Church be this for Israel when it is not yet this for itself? What a new, deep seeking of God this will require. But then "Who will ascend into the hill of the Lord?…The generation of them that seek after Him, that seek thy face [the revelation of God in His character as He in fact is and not as we thought Him to be], God of Jacob.”

(Art Katz)

Dear brother,

I just want to inform you of prayer time focused on Revival that takes place every Monday evening via teleconference. I had a similar burden and brother Greg Gordon informed me of it. It is led by a dear brother from Canada named Edgar Reich. My wife and I have been involved for the last two years and have never personally met any of the other brothers and sisters. The primary burden is for North America but we pray as the Spirit leads.

1 Cor. 15:22 ”“
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Comment:
And so ALL men, ALL Jews and ALL Gentiles, will be saved.

THE FINAL, CLOSURE EVENT:

1 Cor. 15:23-28 ”“
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
THEN COMES THE END, when He hands over the kingdom to our God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.
But when He says, "All things are put in subjection,” it is clear that this excludes the Father who put all things in subjection to Him.
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL

Brother Abey, can you provide a link?

The disagreement on pre/post-trib/no-trib --- or pan-trib ("I ain't worried about it, it'll all pan out.") --- will resolve itself. God is doing what He said He will do in the Earth.

If you are aloof from studies of the time of the end, my biggest concern is that you may be deceived easily in the months to come. Without me making a case that anyone who is aloof is in danger (and thereby starting an argument that will be fruitless), may I gently ask this? Pray and read. Read the prophets, psalms and the New Testament and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you whatever He will -- and be willing to be changed. If you're right to be aloof, He'll still shape you toward Christ. You've only to gain and not to lose. I believe He'll finish what He started in you and that He will move the earnest heart toward greater understanding of what He's is doing (whatever that may be).

If you're a preterist and/or amillenialist, my biggest concern is the same concern I have for post-trib/pre-wrath, millenialist believers like myself: Pride. In your case, I pray that pride will not keep you immovable if what God is doing in the Earth is, in fact, what post-trib/pre-wrath believers think we understand Him to be doing. Let's agree to love one another and remain committed to each other. I do think that, in the months ahead, that love will be indispensible, empowering and a condemning witness to counter the confusion and deception of the times. If we're right and you're wrong, our own pride can be a divider at a time when truly washing one another's feet is a most needed aspect of our nexus in Christ as opposed to patting ourselves on the back. We are going to need each other. If you're right and we're wrong, we need each other -- how will we come to knowledge of the truth (which we wholeheartedly want) if we have no one to turn to?

If you're a pre-tribber, my biggest concern for you is disillusionment and rejection of your Savior when time reveals your error. The 70th Week is coming swiftly. You'll be here for it (at least part of it depending on your survival). My concern is that you don't miss where you are in time and become so disillusioned and disappointed that you give up the faith. And, if you will, please (as I plead with the end-times-aloof), pray and read. And, as I plead with preterist/amils and other post-trib/pre-wrath believers, let's commit to love one another anyway.

We are, to one another, where we are, the greatest assets on Earth. It is my own view that the global wave against the assembling together of ourselves has now crashed into the full of North America. Let us practice toward each other what our brothers and sisters abroad already know -- we NEED one another.

The 70th Week is coming swiftly.

This is debatable. I hold the view with many others that the 70th week is already past.

This is clear:

2 Thess. 2:1,3-4 ”“
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him……………Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

The church, the body of Christ, is the temple of God (Eph.2:19-22, 1 Pet. 2:4-5).

There is NO scripture connecting 2 Thess. 2:1, 3-4 with the 70th week.

If God is for us, who is against us? We overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us, and nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 8:31-39).

"Stand firm” ”“ 2 Thess. 2:15.

And, as I plead with preterist/amils and other post-trib/pre-wrath believers, let's commit to love one another anyway.

The enemy divides and conquers. We unite to fight THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH (1 Tim. 6:12).

Such discussions about -ism and -ology etc. don't promote Biblical Revival and unity. Therefore it should be clear that they are not helpful.

Many Believers have been in such Prison Camps and Gulags etc.Many of those who survived were praising God and shared their testimony with the world. That is powerful !

Luke wrote: "Around midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening..."

Comment from Jade:
"And so ALL men, ALL Jews and ALL Gentiles, will be saved."
Correct ! - we have "one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.… (Eph 4:5,6)

savannah wrote:
And now I sing a brand new song,
"Amazing grace” all day long,
Christ Jesus paid the debt,
That I could never pay.
Have some of us forgotten that - or never experienced it ?

Joseph: I can hear what you are saying, glad you tried to remind us what really matters:
"I just thought the focus here was supposed to be prayer and revival " Amen !

"Let us practice toward each other what our brothers and sisters abroad already know -- we NEED one another." This mentality in Christ is what we need!

The world will know us as Christ's disciples by our endtime views? By our belief [concerning] eternal security? By our believing we have 100% right doctrine? By a certain denomination we are apart of? By reading our Bibles hundreds of times? By a title we have been given? By our gifting within Christ body? By our boldness?

No, they will know we are Christ's by our love for one another. Love fulfills the law. Love covers a multitude of sins. Agape love brought through Christ, and given through His Spirit is a must for us no matter what happens next.

Since judgment must begin at the house of God, nothing should be more sobering for the church’s consideration than the clear truth that one declared purpose of the coming unequaled tribulation is to bring Jacob to the end of his power (Deut 32:36; Dan 12:7). It is very significant that Messiah is not revealed to Israel ‘until’ after a time of travail and unequaled tribulation, "when He sees that their power is gone…” (Deut 4:30-31; Isa 26:16-17; 66:8; Jer 30:7; Mic 5:3; Dan 12:1; Hos 5:15; 6:1-2; Zech 12:10; Mt 23:39; 24:21; Ro 11:26; Rev 1:7).

This is more than a predicted event of the end time; it is a principle of the Spirit. The veil that hides Christ is only as strong as the pride of human self sufficiency. Christ is revealed at the end of strength! The one obstruction to revelation is the veil of the flesh, which speaks of the strength that must be broken of "the pride of its power” (Lev 26:19). That is why Christ is the end (goal) of the law for righteousness, because the law was given to take away this perverse presumption of power.

If the last days are indeed the shaking of all things, we may be sure that the church that will speak to Jacob in the wilderness is not one that is a stranger to the lengths that God will go to remove this deceitful kind of power. What kind of power is this that requires such severe dealings, even, and particularly with religious man at his best? Are we right to suppose that this power is lodged more deeply in the religious humanism of Judaism than in Christianity? Hardly.

Will Christ be fully formed in the church of the last witness apart from a deep travail of the Spirit sufficient to ‘cast down’ this hidden conceit of the heart? (see Gal 4:19). What will press the church to this? If the church, as the pillar and ground of the truth, will be the prophetic voice to Israel in the tribulation (Dan 11:32-33; 12:3, 10; Rev 12:10), what kind of shaking must surely come in advance of that time in order to deeply empty the servant people that will speak to Jacob in his distress?

Christ was crucified in weakness and raised in power. Paul meant this not only descriptively of Jesus but prescriptively for the church. It is a statement of our corporate calling to Israel and the nations. This is why Jesus had more than a few isolated predictions in mind when He said, "Ought not Christ to have suffered …?” He was referring to the much larger pattern of the many servant sons (Joseph, David, etc.) who anticipated in their sufferings the preeminent Servant. This is how we must speak to Israel.

Must Jacob bear his tribulation alone and all the church go free? Are we to suppose that those sealed servants of God who will suffer with Israel during her wilderness flight have been only recently saved after an alleged pre-trib rapture? No, they are servants with a history in God who know the fellowship of His sufferings and the power of His resurrection. It seems that prophetic logic would forbid that God would speak to Jacob through any lesser agency than a corporate servant son who has passed through death to know and testify to "the God who raises the dead.” Only by such a church would God speak / prophesy to Jacob in the day of his calamity. This is why I am led to expect some deep dealings that will shake and humble the church in necessary advance of Jacob’s trouble, not only individually, but corporately.

As things threaten almost daily to bring radical changes to the world as we’ve known it, it is only a matter of time till the dam breaks, not in the final form of the last 3 ½ years of "the final and unequaled tribulation,” as many falsely expect, but in the form of seismic changes that must precede and prepare for that time. This too will be costly, but it is this time that I believe God will be doing His great work of preparation in the church for the final thrust of witness and evangelism (Dan 11:32-33; 12:3), which, according to Rev 7:9, 14 will result in the greatest harvest of souls the world has ever seen. So the last witness of the tribulation church is guaranteed unprecedented success by the inerrant Word of prophecy. If our eye will be made utterly single in the pursuit of His glory, we will count it privilege to suffer for His sake, as a supreme gift of grace (Phil 1:29).

Affectionately. (Reggie Kelly)

https://hillelontario.org/blog/did-you-know-that-these-nine-celebrities-are-actually-jewish/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_entertainers

Hi Docs,
Well the only thing about all the Tribulation and rapture talk is that the pattern of 3 1/2 yrs ,time ,times and half a time and 42 months is totally ignored.
As I have said many a time the link between Mt Carmel and Elijah ,Pentecost and Elijah and the Tribulation and Elijah is one of the most important keys if not the most important key (because it is missing)in understanding what happens in the end.
Elijah plays a huge part in the end ,getting the bride ready.
The bride is not ready as we speak and needs to be made ready by "The Friend of the Bridegroom"(the term Jesus used ).The friend of the bridegroom is Elijah and Elijah will make way for the Lord and will get the bride ready,urs staff

brother Joseph,

Sorry for the delay in getting this to you. Here is the relevant information for the revival prayer group I mentioned.

Dear Sisters and Brothers: Won't you pray for Revival with us?
Please pray with us for Revival tomorrow Monday night December 14, 2020.
A brief challenge precedes our praying together.
The Conference access number is: 1 (712) 770-4160
The access code is : 603053# . If you have problems with this Tel.
No. please use this back up No. 1(206)451-6010.
The times below are for each Monday.
Eastern Standard Time 9 p.m.
Central Time 8 p.m.
Mountain Time 7 p.m.
Pacific Time 6 p.m.
If you would like to hear one of the prior challenges please
dial 712-770 4169 and your access code 603053#.
If you receive this notice, you are loved and you are being prayed for.
Sending Blessings and Love,
Brother Edgar
Psalm 121

Thank you Brother Abey