One angle of how bad theology plays itself out.

I just have to share this because this is one an isolated case. I don't think it is anyway. This is more of a PSA

I have a friend of some 22 years who swears to me that Trump will be serve a 2nd term as President. She is very certain that this will happen. I asked her for a time frame and she says 6 months. I asked her why does she beleieve so strongly about this. 2 reasons.

1. Prophecies about Trump being re elected. ( Well, we know those prophecies were and are false but she wants them to be true)

2. She believes Biden will go to jail not long after he is in office. I think it has to do with dealing in China.

I told her that if Biden goes to jail then Kamala Harris becomes Prez and after her it is Nancy Pelosi.

She is so confident in this that she actually bet me $100 and the deadline is her birthday which is late February.

While this is easy money it won't bring me satisfaction until she becomes broken, admits the many prophecies were false and learns not to trust so called prophets today as a result. I don't care about the money. I am only taking the bet to reach her soul.

p.s. She is also stressed out about the mark of the beast and is pushing the commentary about not taking the vaccine because it may be a part of the mark of the beast. I told her that I don't think the mark of the beast is so obvious as she thinks.

John

Hi Deadn,
Your picking a very worse case scenario there but her reasons for expecting a second term are suspect.Their is better reasoning than that available.

Also to flip it on its head what makes you so sure he wont do a second term?

On Timlines
I copied and pasted this from another post i just did as it fits the bill

"The 20th is a deadline.Its a deadline similar to Lazarus's deadline .Lazarus's deadline was actually a real deadline and on the the day of his deadline(the 20th for this discussion)he physically died.Mary and Martha and all the mourners had no choice of course but to follow the deadline(of the 20th).God did not have to follow man's deadline and Jesus tarried 4 days.Enough time for the man to be dead and buried and decomposing .Then Jesus tells us the reason for the delay was for the Glory of God.God's Timeline is not mans timeline."

And " I want my 4 days that Jesus took to ressurect"

urs staff
p.s tell me what she spends her winnings on ?lol

I wish this were a worse case scenario. How many other people are hanging their faith on these prophecies? Or are they just now dismissing them and moving on with no thought that these 'prophets' should be marked and avoided? I bet that is the case more than believing the prophecies so much.

This quote is more of a SQUIRREL to me then anything. I understand what it is saying but it is also a a road to nowhere. It applies more to OT prophecies and Revelation since. I also think it is a subtle attempt to push prophecy forward where no actual prophecy exists i.e. using the Lazarus passage with Trump.

It is a fail all the way around for me. It also sows seeds for those who tend to hang their hat on those who prophesy and become led by that more than the Word itself.

"The 20th is a deadline.Its a deadline similar to Lazarus's deadline .Lazarus's deadline was actually a real deadline and on the the day of his deadline(the 20th for this discussion)he physically died.Mary and Martha and all the mourners had no choice of course but to follow the deadline(of the 20th).God did not have to follow man's deadline and Jesus tarried 4 days.Enough time for the man to be dead and buried and decomposing .Then Jesus tells us the reason for the delay was for the Glory of God.God's Timeline is not mans timeline."

And " I want my 4 days that Jesus took to ressurect"

Deuteronomy 13:1-5 says "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’””which you have not known””‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

Deuteronomy 18:17-22 says "And the LORD said to me: What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’”” when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

There you have it. If they do not proclaim the same God that we do (many prosperity Gospel preachers do not) or they prophesy wrong, they are false.

Hi Deadn
I really do understand your concerns and dont believe in pushing a prophecy down the road is correct.

Assuming you believe Prophecy is for today which I think their is ample scripture to show that it is then we have to listen to the Prophecy and weigh it up.
I have said on numerous occasions their is a problem in the so called prophetic movement but that doesnt mean we throw out the baby with the bath water.The baby being true prophecy.

My qoute on Lazarus is scripturally well put together and makes sense.Why the rush to judgement we havent even hit the 20th much less the 24th .I didnt use the Lazarus passage with Trump ,I used it with Resurection .Its in the resurection that God gets the glory not man.Everything has to look completely lost or God will not be fully glorified.
Cant we at least see will Jesus come to the funeral or will Moses part the Red Sea?

Another point on the election prophecies is that already the prophets who were presumptive,the prophets who lacked faith ,the prophets who were along for the ride ,the prophets who lied and the prophets who wanted to save their own "ministries" have apologized and backtracked.These have already have been seen for what and where they are.

One assumption you are making that I dont think is correct is that people who listen to prophecy dont know the scripture like people who dont listen to prophecy.

What makes you think Trump wont get a second term again?

urs staff

I used to believe there was prophesy today but in time I came to a conclusion that there isn't. Maybe I should say there are no prophets today. The ones we see today tend to be after their own glory and the more popular ones are very ambiguious in their prophetic. I think of Bethal church as an example of this.

I have also learned that when you want to believe in modern prophesy you open the door to leaning on it more than on the Word or you will mix the Word with it but subtle find yourself looking more toward the modern prophetic than the Word itself because the Word becomes not enough.

I want to lean toward someone who gives a modern prophecy but is not a prophet but I don't see evidence of that taking place BUT I do see evidence of people who give words of wisdom to someone else while not operating in a gifting of a wisdom prophet so to speak.

Another point on the election prophecies is that already the prophets who were presumptive,the prophets who lacked faith ,the prophets who were along for the ride ,the prophets who lied and the prophets who wanted to save their own "ministries" have apologized and backtracked.These have already have been seen for what and where they are.

One assumption you are making that I dont think is correct is that people who listen to prophecy dont know the scripture like people who dont listen to prophecy.

THe prophets are false. These prophets, if they were repentant, would take themselves out of ministry and get under a pastor for a time and possibly not come back into ministry. This won't happen because my theory is there is to much power and attention to be held there and they don't want to lose it. It is another reason why I dismiss this people. We are talking about spiritual things. Do you want a false prophet to be repentant and yet teach you spiritual things? And you will trust that? UH NOT ME

What makes you think Trump wont get a second term again?

Common sense dictates Trump won't get a 2nd term. He is s a disgraced President. The only people holding onto Trump are those who are invested into Conspiracy theories such as Qanon and those who don't want a Democrat in office and are holden to Trump because he is the Republican candidate. I am GOP and Trump is an embarrassment to the GOP but I have my foot more in the kingdom of God then I do the hope of politics

Also, if Trump goes to trial, after Biden takes office, it could be possible that Trump would not be able to hold any public office. I say Trump will be hold up in his bunker while playing golf and dodging possible trials over whatever things he may have done that we are not aware of.

Hi
I will just address a few things some I agree with.

The list of prophets should take themselves out of ministry and stop making excuses agreed.
On whether prophecy exists or better put should exist the scripture is clear.
Prophecy is for exhortation ,consolation and edification and without it these areas can not be filled with anything else.

On Trump being disgraced
I couldnt disagree more.

On the one side you have a group of people media and politicians who did this
1 Spied on a political campaign(100 times worse than watergate)
2Introduced a hoax (now accepted by all)Russia collusion story bought and paid for by the Clinton foundation

3Introduced an impeachment about a call to Ukraine to cover their own tracks with Hunter and Joe Biden
4 Introduced the heaviest Censorship in living memory as you know
5
Manipulated polls to make it look like both the 2016 and 2020 elections were done and dusted and both were clearly not
6
Committed Election Fraud on a scale never even thought of before.All of this fraud evidence was given in the open and under affidavit to state legislatures.
7 The democrats have had a Militia who fund raised for them called BLM on the streets burning and murdering all year,causing over 1 billion in damage

They have lied ,cheated and in my opinion committed treason but yet I am meant to believe them this time round.If their was nothing wrong with the election it would have been in Joe Bidens interest to do a full proper audit of the states involved but like the thief running away from the police they did not .They tried to stop and intimidate anyone who wanted open elections.

On a personal note ,you really need to hear the evidence given under oath to the state legislatures.I am not being nasty here or trying to be but you sound like you didnt follow it closely and got soundbytes from Mainstream media who are far bigger false prophets than all false prophets that have ever been.
Donald Trump is not at all perfect but he has done nothing disgraceful and will go down at least as the greatest one term president we have seen and if he is vindicated he will go down as the greatest president in our lifetimes.
I think we have to be fair ,he was Pro Life ,Pro Israel ,Pro Christian and stood up to the most evil opposition the US has seen in 160 years.If any Christian cannot see the evil spiritual darkness behind this group and think this is conspiracy theory they have a far bigger problem than knowing scripture or going to Church on Sunday,

urs staff

How is peace a disgrace?
North Korea was the biggest threat to US security per outgoing (pre-Trump) administration and what was thought impossible was accomplished and seen by all - a US President crossing over the DMZ by invitation and signing a Historic Peace Accord significantly reducing militarization/nuclear threat of the Korean Peninsula effectively creating a more peaceful world.

Additionally the Peace treaties between Israel and several of her neighbors including, but not limited to, Saudi Arabia where now we see a normalization of their relationship which puts a positive regional pressure to pursue a similar peace with Israel on other Islamic countries.
Remind us please, how long have USA politicians and Presidents sought these very Peace deals but failed to deliver?

Likewise, where is ISIS, ALQEDA, TALIBAN, MS13, etc... ?

Remind us again please, how many wars President Trump started?

Remind us again please, how long it’s been since we had a POTUS that didn’t start a war?

Remind us again please, who was the last POTUS (before Trump) who fought openly for religious freedom?

Remind us again please, why has it taken Washington so long to take care of our Veterans (before Trump) ?

Remind us again please, why is it that the worlds most evil and perverse people, promoting godlessness in all forms under the guise of unity, have aligned themselves against President Donald John Trump... even to the extent of demonic principalities (church of Satan, disciples of lucifer, witches association) holding public service in multiple cities across the IS and Canada to cast spells and hexes upon him so he wouldn’t get elected?

Remind us again please, how you sir have such a refined discernment yet have left out these things from your compilation?

If money and bets is what your after I’ll give you $100 to go earnestly before the Lord, seeking His face and His word soaked in prayer and bring here, where you chose to take a stand, for us to see what He reveals to you on each of these subjects...

I dare you to ~

Hi JFW,
This is the small list of the good things he has done.
The only disgraceful thing is the way he has been treated and persecuted for doing good.
urs staff

Could it be that all these people who prophesied that Trump would be re-elected were correct but were off on the timing? Perhaps Trump will be re-elected to a second term but it will happen not in the 2020 election but further down the road, perhaps 2024. These prophets just assumed it would be an immediate second term.

Hi TrueWitness,
I thought of that and indeed some are using it as an excuse but it has to be this time.
Their will be no glory for God in 2024 and the criminals would have got away with the crime which remains election fraud,corruption and censorship.
It would also veer off the course God has set in the western world with 2016,Brexit and supreme court judges.
Britian would be left alone without a true ally,nation state policies changed in the US and the supreme court would be packed.It certainly could happen in the natural that a president gets a second term with a gap ,its happened before.
The problem with this that a win in 2024 would be a catalyst for nothing.A 2020 win at this late stage would be a catalyst for reivival in the Church and would answer alot of the divisions in the Church on gifts and the use of gifts etc.
As I have said regardless of what happens on the 20th I want my "4 days" that Jesus took to resurrect Lazarus so I can wait and see him perform a miracle.
But you are right God's Timeline is not Man's Timeline and their can be a difference to what we understand to when God moves,its just not the 2024 unless God allows because of the disruption Donald Trump to do 3 terms .This I would say definitely could happen,
urs staff

JWF

I want to remind you that the topic here is NOT what Trump has done in his 4 years of office. NO, the topic is prophecy and his re election. Prophesy for the many who prophesied that he will be re elected to a 2nd term. Is that happening? Big fat NO.

My refined discernment from bible study. Knowing the Word and being able to use it to discern what is true and what is false along with illumination of the Holy Spirit.

There is a lot of seduction in the church and there are too many of us falling for seducing spirits and doctrines of demons that look like light.

If money and bets is what your after I’ll give you $100 to go earnestly before the Lord, seeking His face and His word soaked in prayer and bring here, where you chose to take a stand, for us to see what He reveals to you on each of these subjects...

NO NO NO

She is the one who wanted to bet me 3x. She kept saying 'I will bet you'. So I decided ok put up or shut up. On my part when I win this bet I may ask her to take the money and use it to pay for a counselor because she is not thinking rightly at all.

Could it be that all these people who prophesied that Trump would be re-elected were correct but were off on the timing? Perhaps Trump will be re-elected to a second term but it will happen not in the 2020 election but further down the road, perhaps 2024. These prophets just assumed it would be an immediate second term.

In other words a prophet of God can get it almost right and still be ok?

Also this is a hypothetical that doesn't even exist. It is just wishful thinking. There is a good chance that if Trump goes on some trial that he may not be able to hold any public office. If that happens then it would really blow any prophesies straight to hell.

I am passionate on this because there is such itching ears of people wanting to hear from God and Satan is ready and willing to deceive. THere are con men and hucksters just waiting to gain an audience of Christians and have them give them fame and attention.

I used to be a pentecostal and I saw so much of this stuff take people, seduce people, lie to people.

Another point on the election prophecies is that already the prophets who were presumptive,the prophets who lacked faith ,the prophets who were along for the ride ,the prophets who lied and the prophets who wanted to save their own "ministries" have apologized and backtracked.These have already have been seen for what and where they are.

One assumption you are making that I dont think is correct is that people who listen to prophecy dont know the scripture like people who dont listen to prophecy

NO, I don't make that assumption. A false prophet can know scripture, and twist it for their own gain. Rick Warren, though not a self professed prophet, does this. A person can know scripture but still use it deceitfully. What we as Christians needs to do is practice more discernment with the Word.

Not that I want to draw attention to myself, but I really think the solution to the problem is found in the Scriptures that I posted from Deuteronomy 13 and 18.

Listen, If prophesy has ceased , then every "prophesy" that is made will innately fail one of those two tests. They will either be proclaiming a god that is NOT the God of the Bible or they will get their prophesies (and subsequent interpretations) incorrect. If they fail either of those tests, then they are false.

If prophesy has not ceased, then true, God-given prophesies will pass both tests, and false prophesies will fail one of them.

The genuis behind these commandments that God gave is that they force us to both examine WHAT the prophets are saying and WHOM they proclaim is saying them, based upon their theology. It's fool-proof really.

I don't care if you are charismatic or a total cessationist--these two tests are invaluable for examining EVERY SINGLE person proclaiming to be a prophet.

------------
DEADn,

I can see you're as staight-forward as I am about things; however, I would caution you from one stubborn man to another: don't tell your friend to pay for counseling. I promise she won't appreciate that now or later. Definitely not what I would want said to me if I were in her situation.

A possible suggestion: if she really does give you $100 dollars, buy her a John MacArthur Study Bible and the documentaries American Gospel part 1 and American Gospel part 2. It'll be money well spent and definitely give her some insight.

Hi Deadn
Yeah but their is a problem here the only way you could discern what has been going on in this election is by looking at the evidence presented and by knowing that a Leopard never changes his spots.
The democrats who had a militia on the streets that are communist called BLM all year burning and killing and you didnt discern the evil behind them.So your bible study didnt work.
Judging on the rhetoric you are saying it is very clear to me that you are just saying the same stuff main stream media are saying with no discernment at all.The evil people,very evil people that are saying trials and this and that are the exact same people that are censoring all Christian voices at the moment and unchecked their will be no Sermonindex.

How can a group of poeple like who support Abortion,Are Antisemtic ,gay agenda and who have told evil lies about Russia,Ukraine,Brett Kavanaugh,Amy Barret just to mention a few things to be trusted or believed about anything?
These poeple are atheistic media like CNN,Msnbc and the entire democratic party and some of the gop and we are expected to believe anything that comes out of their mouths?

"My refined discernment from bible study. Knowing the Word and being able to use it to discern what is true and what is false along with illumination of the Holy Spirit."

urs staff

Hi Havok,
Just one thing on your post .
Their is no test for an interpetation of a prophecy unless God said this is the interpretation and they give the interpretation as also a intrepretation from God.
Some poeple have given a prophecy and then gave an opinion on what it meant or what they thought it meant.

"Young men will have visions and old mean will dream dreams"
You could also argue that dreams and visions which are definitely for both Testaments are not prophecy as in wide awake spoken prophecy

urs staff

I cannot recount a place in Scripture in which the prophet gave an incorrect assement of his own prophesy, save once--and that man, disobeying the Word of the Lord paid with his life for his grave error.

You sir stated that he was a disgraced president... did you not?
I’m simply taking you to task to qualify that statement-

As for you "bet” ... honestly I’m as concerned for your salvation/mental state as you are for your "friend” as you clearly believe she is deceived and yet have in no way expressed a brotherly love by intercession or recruiting us to join in prayer for her but instead are pompously bragging about your "rightness” in relation to her being crazy ... that is not the response of a born again Christian- that is the flesh. You even continue to berate her behind her back saying- when I win I’ll tell her to use it on therapy??
How callous is the spirit in you ??? Have you no fear before the Lord- remember "As a man soweth so shall he also reap”

Btw I do hope and pray you take the advice offered and I have been and will continue to pray the Lord softens your heart 🙏🏻

Hi Havok,
But their was one ,thats the point.
Also Agabus gave a prophecy over Paul but did not give an interpretation of what to do with it.The Christians at Caesarea wrongly intrepreted the dream as a warning to Paul to get on his bike.

So wrong intrepretations can happen even when the word is sure.
In the situation we are in it is easy to see how a prophecy can be intrepreted wrongly as regards to a timeline.
For instance Trump will serve two terms in a row and the assumption is made that jan 20th which is a firm date in mans calendar is the be all and end all but may not be in Gods.
I would even say that if God gave me a prophecy that Trump would win 2020 election that I would not even think that anything other than a Trump inauguration would happen on the 20th .
urs staff

The nature of prophesy is important here. Agabus indeed prophesied to Paul, but the one to whom the prophesy was directed--Paul--knew exactly what to do with it and did exactly what He was commanded.

The prophet in the OT who was killed by a lion also KNEW what the prophesy meant that was given to him; however, he willfully disobeyed it at the word of a lying prophet.

There are two tests--the Word of God gives them both. All prophesies are run through these tests. Since the Word of God is sufficient for all matters regarding His instructions and expectations, we need not look for another test.

Again, run every prophesy through these tests, regardless of whether you understand the interpretation or not. If what they say comes to pass, but they proclaim a god different from the Scriptures, they are false. If what they say does not come to pass and they crawfish on modify their words, they are liars and false. It's that cut and dry.

Now I understand that I am digging my heels in the ground on this, but this is all the Bible gives me on this (that I am aware of) and on that truth I am going to rest. Theoretical scenarios abound, but the Word of God is true. However, if you can demonstrate through Scripture additional tests, leeway, or anything else I am missing, I am all for it. After all, God did not make me the gateway of theology.

Havoc,
Yeah the Christians intrepreted Agabus Wrong though and thats the point.The secondary point is sometimes the Prophet doesnt interpret.
Also it doesnt nessacary mean they are "liars" if the prophecy is wrong ,they could be liars or they could genuinely believe what they are saying is true.
We also dont know was Paul commanded to do anything ,it isnt clear on that.It may have been a decision Paul had to make without insight from God .
So I am saying the Prophecy is cut and dry and if true will come to pass but the intrepretation may not come straight away and in the quest to join the dots people sometimes may go off route.In that sense Old Testament Prophets have an added incentive to get it right ,their heads.
We should also mention that we have dreams,visions and Prophecy and alot of what you hear today involves dreams and visions which may not be 100% straight forward,

In context of the election though I think and believe he will have to be President this time around and a very important thing everyone is missing which is that almost everybody said their would be "exposure" and "judgement" as well
We have never had a time in the Church as this in our living memory where the lines are drawn theologically.Both sides can now say without doubt that if Trump becomes President then it is from God.
Lets wait .... before we rush and say thier is no Red Sea moment or Haman doesnt get to use his own equipment,lets have our funeral for Lazarus and wait the four days for Jesus to arrive.I think thats scriptural and wise ...

urs staff

Now I understand that I am digging my heels in the ground on this, but this is all the Bible gives me on this (that I am aware of) and on that truth I am going to rest. Theoretical scenarios abound, but the Word of God is true. However, if you can demonstrate through Scripture additional tests, leeway, or anything else I am missing, I am all for it. After all, God did not make me the gateway of theology.

Why are we going to the old testament on conditions a prophecy should satisfy? why not the new testament because we live under the New Covenant?

Paul clearly says this is what will happen when a Propshsyc is made in a Church.

1 Cor 14 23 Therefore if the whole church gathers together and all the people speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are insane? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

Bible is clear that in new covenant a prophet is given to the Church, not to a nation. So if anyone is under New Covenant and prophesies then the prophecy should reveal the secrets of the hearts of the people in the Church. If this condition is not satisfied then the prophecy is worth no salt to build the Church and the prophet is not one given to the Church to build.

So all the political predictions made public in the name of prophecies are not worth a salt in building the Church of Christ. They clearly fail the filter criteria given by Apostle Paul. If anyone got up in the Church of Paul and said who will win a political race then Paul would have kicked him out of the Church, sadly today people don't know the New Covenant nor the teachings and standards of the Apostles.

I agree Sree.

The whole idea of future telling pronouncements on social media by supposed prophets is off-putting.

It’s not valid, as you state, and there is no accountability. And judging by the comments to these "prophecies” there is a vast horde of apparently quite infantile Christians who are extremely gullible.

If these prophets had predicted a Biden win the same people fawning over the predictions of a Trump win would be castigating the Biden predictors as being of the devil and false prophets.

In other words, the Trump predictors were preaching to the choir who apparently had no discernment whatsoever.

Hi
Prophesy as we can see benefits the unbeliever and the outsider .Where better to get unbelievers and outsiders than outside in the world.The scripture is not saying that Prophecy can only be given in the confines of the building or only when Church is meeting.
Also in context of Paul's letter he was addressing the chaos of the Corinth Church and how they should behave when they are meeting and how to use the gifts when they are meeting.
He wasnt saying that the gifts could only be used exclusively when the Church was meeting.He was adding some discipline to his disciples.

"But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an outsider enters, he is convicted by all"

On Whether this is over

Martha and Mary thought this was over because of their unbelief but Jesus ressurected Lazarus after 4 days .
Jesus timeline was so God could be glorified ,Cant we at least have the resolve to wait for the 4 days?

urs staff

There seems to be a convenient out already being propagated. That being, we're not going by man's timetable and calendar but by God's timetable. That way, the fulfillment of the prophecies which were presented as going to happen here and now will be allowed to free float into who knows how long in the future.

I'm not looking forward at all to a Biden administration. I voted for President Trump twice. He has a undeniable long and phenomenal list of achievements. I would still love to eat crow, but it's my opinion, that, if all the prophecies about a Trump second term prove to be false then the difficult questions must be asked and the answers not avoided with replies like touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm. Or the saints failed to join with the prophets in faith. The normal Christian layman saint deserves better than that. I remain disappointed in the election and the multitude of the prophecies that preceded it. I"m back to there are many voices in the world but the voice of the Lord is that which gives peace.

Aren’t there yet unfulfilled prophecies/declarations in the NT... ?
How long was the wait from the first messianic prophecies before the coming of Christ ?

While SI comprises the largest extent of my social media engagement, I’m not ignorant of the multitude of voices saying all sorts of things that may or may not occur- having said this the current stream of "prophecies” are mostly piggybacking on a few seemingly sincere voices. Unfortunately the monetization of modern Christianity has done untold damage to the cause of Christ and the "prophetic movement” is surely included in this failing. Even so, the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ - when a true prophecy is heard the spirit bears witness for He cannot deny Himself.

Rather than attempting to exert some retrofitted church discipline upon those whom we don’t personally know or maintain fellowship with, perhaps our time would be better spent before the Lord in intercession that the name of Christ not be blasphemed ...
None of us here has any ability to stop or censor what other people say to, for or on behalf of Jesus, but we do have not only the ability but the commission to intercede before God on their behalf, if for no other reason then at least for His Namesake 😇

The issue is settled by the fact that many of the prophecies strongly implied or prophesied Trump would begin his second term on Jan 20 which is today. That is what many were told to believe. Not some free floating time of fulfillment in the future. It"s just a simple undeniable fact this was done.

Hi
Nothing is being propagated Docs.Its scriptural to say that God only gets the Glory when everything else has died as explained in detail before.

. That being, we're not going by man's timetable and calendar but by God's timetable.

This has not been proven yet and is still an "if" and we could say the opposite of course if they prove to be true their will be alot of people who will have to change course on what they have been saying and believing.

" if all the prophecies about a Trump second term prove to be false

Ive been listening about Persecution coming on SI for about 18yrs with no timeline except "soon" and the same people giving that prophecy which they say wasnt a prophecy of course were perplexed and disapointed that God put a Pro Life ,Pro Israel and Pro religous freedoms President into power.Sure if we wait long enough some persecution is bound to come along......

urs staff

These prophets were not saying at the first what they are now saying about God's timetable versus man's timetable and the election. I would love to be wrong. I watched Mr. Biden being sworn in today and felt sadness, disgust, and anger. Nevertheless, I'm just trying to be objectively sane and sober and there's nothing wrong with me spiritually for doing so. I have been through the charismatic movement in its fullness and I know how long not addressing flakiness and falsehood went on. It wasn't healthy and we are still suffering from it. If I'm wrong then so be it but I am not willing at this point to participate in so many apparently false prophecies just being swept under the rug if indeed they turn out to be false.

Rather than attempting to exert some retrofitted church discipline upon those whom we don’t personally know or maintain fellowship with, perhaps our time would be better spent before the Lord in intercession that the name of Christ not be blasphemed ...

Whether these political predictions that are done in the name of Jesus come true or not, they do not qualify to be the prophesy that Apostles spoke about. They blaspheme in the name of Jesus as rightly said by you.

Yes, we do not have the power to prevent such blasphemy but we have the power to spread awareness. Why are such self-proclaimed prophets willing to do predictions in the name of Jesus? Because they have an unsuspecting audience who have no clue what real prophesy is nor do they know their bible. My problem is not with these self-proclaimed prophets but with their listeners. I have never listened to anyone and will never. But the problem is with those who listen to them and call them something special. There is nothing special.

When Apostles spoke about prophesy that will take place in the CHurch in which the inner motive of our hearts will be disclosed by a powerful prophetic word then why are we even interested in such political predictions? It clearly shows that people who follow and listen to such political predictions have no clue about real Biblical prophesy nor are they interested in the Church of Christ.

Jesus himself warned his disciples of wolves in sheep's clothing, so we should also warn the Church against such cheap policial predictions done in the name of prophesy.

just remember we all will be judged by every word that comes out of our mouth whether it be from the lord or from the flesh, many here will be judged as well for promoting things that are not from god and promoting conspiracys, remember the false prophets were stoned but the priests are killed if they speak forth not gods words ,and any other commanment breakers like adulterers, dishonering parents all came with death penalty under the old covenant ,, make sure every word that you speak is not your opinions, but truth , you will be judged as well for every idle word that you speak on this forum, make sure god has cleaned you heart and conscience is clear ,,, because no one will escape the chasicment from our father,, beware of that , and be quick to hear and slow to speak and slow wrath , remember this verse and guard your own heart from speaking blasphemy and you will do well......... 10As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God.

Hi Docs
I have been calling out the crazy side of the pentecostal movement since the day I got saved,including the last few months for people apologizing without stepping down and for making excuses which are basically "its the Churches fault".

However I refuse to throw out the "baby with the bathwater"in the sense that I refuse to throw out prophecy as part of the new testament church because people make money out of it ,build their own ministries rather than Gods kingdom or because people prophecy falsely.
I am not surprized at all with false prophecy regarding this election because I carefully looked at prophecy about Trump 2016 ,about Covid and about Brexit and its fairly scarce on the ground!But I wont throw the Church's God given right and God's desire for the gifts to operate correctly in the Church.
I also have to then look at my own interaction with God regarding the election and on what I believe God showed me.

Then I have to realize that some of these people are genuine Christians who love the Lord and I will see in heaven ,so even if they are wrong ,I will not stone them for it.

On line at the moment reminds me of a funeral and its certainly is a time like no other in the recent history of the Church.Everything is being shaken including the mulitiple cracks in the prophetic movement and our hard held theologies.
One other thing that is being tested to the full is our faith and this time of testing is hard but it is right,
urs staff

P.s A far bigger problem by the way in the Church today is people being called by their gifts for instance Pastor Frank or Pastor George but that never seems to get addressed.

Hi
We are not under the old Covenant and no one gets stoned (unless its smoking legalized pot in Canada) and no priests get put to death.The lord deals with us as the scripture says

"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

Sometimes its the woodshed with chastisement and sometimes its in the still small voice,
urs staff

I'm not against prophecy today at all. Being honest though, I've never really followed the modern prophetic movement much at all. It's just as the election approached, it seemed more and more were publically predicting there was not a chance President Trump would not serve four more years. Now many are saying that what looks like failed predictions may not really be that. They are giving themselves an out by bringing up God's timetable versus man's.

I'm through posting about it at this point. God is well on His throne.

We seem to have a baseline agreement:)
Perhaps where we may differ is in how to or wether to respond -
Yes it is a problem for the hearers that may be duped but... if the prophecy itself doesn’t come to pass then isn’t that testament enough 🤷🏽”â™‚️
(For me) it’s important that our actions and more our intent is to build up the body and be weary of divisive rhetoric especially when the spiritual battle has emerged into the public arena.
As brother Gary stated,... we will give an account for every idle word so let us speak as the oracles of God else be silent.

we can all agree that the world needs Jesus as much as we do. We have before us such an opportunity as not seen in many years,.. Look for the fields are ripe for harvest but the workers are few, pray 🙏🏻 that the Lord of the harvest will send workers into the fields - .... "send me” said the prophet

This "send me” is more a mark of the prophet than his other prophecies as this is the prophecy of himself in active submission to God. This proclamation, this decisive moment of faith in God actualizes the office to which one was called. The basis for this action is love for God and by extension what God loves. Faith being the fuel for action is itself a gift from God. Grace being the directive is itself a gift from God. Mercy being the measure is itself a gift from God. Holy Spirit being the enabler is Himself a gift from God. To Him, for Him, by Him, through Him, to Him be all the glory.

Our fellowship is the key -
IF we walk in the light as he is in the light, THEN we have fellowship with one another AND the blood of Jesus the son of God, cleanseth is of all sin.

IF is the condition
THEN is the benefit
AND is the result

We can choose to lay down our earthly dispositions and concerns and agree to assemble before the throne of grace as the body, fellowshipping in the spirit by interceding for those round about us and elsewhere collectively. Rather than a the occasional individual tactical response in the spiritual battle, we can do what Lot couldn’t do- get 50 people to pray 🙏🏻

As it was in the days of Lot, so shall it be when the son of man returns...
The testimony of Lot... "and the righteous spirit of Lot was vexed as he prayed and made supplication for the sins and abominations being committed round about him”
God accounted Lot righteous and spared him because he at least tried ...
we have a FAR better covenant to operate in. Let us not squander this opportunity to see Christ magnified... let’s pray for one another and do battle in the spirit, fully armored, lamps full, let’s agree we’ve been enlisted-

"If anyone be enlisted into service as a soldier, he no longer concerns himself with the civilian affairs of the world but rather strives to please the one whom enlisted him”
All the Lord requires is willing vessels. living sacrifices ... the Spirit and the Bride say "Come!”

Amen !

Hi JFW,
"Send me" as in evangelism is for everyone not just the prophet and so are dreams and visions and words from the Lord.

Everything that you have said regarding Love,faith,mercy,willing sacrifices and willing vessels are great but why has it not worked to bring revival to the Western World ?
And all that prayer? it hasnt worked either?We've had plenty of time to see Christ magnified but that hasnt happened?
If the standard that things come to pass is a standard then we have all failed miserably.
Even soldiers,non civilians have to understand tactics of war and military training .We have failed on that front too.
Devisions in the body have stopped us in our tracks regarding fellowship.
Yes we may fellowship and we may meet together on the odd occasion but that is the height of it.We are rooted in denominationalism and fractured,disunified because of that.

We have tolerated the Pastor/leader structure in the Church totally unscriptural for centuries but do not put any scrutiny on that wrong.
We have failed miserably but we blame people who bring words about the Presidency fueled by faith,some of which dont claim to be prophets at all but are just sharing what God has given them.Too many people blabbing on the internet we say but we use the internet too.Most are doing it for the ideals of love,faith and mercy too do not forget.

My point is their is plenty of failure to go around ...

urs staff

Yes there is more than enough to go around... yet the key is we have an enemy that actively seeks to kill, steal, and destroy so it’s not simply thh jig e failings of man but also the work of an enemy-
While I don’t disagree with much of what you wrote, there is more to the story...

Firstly the Lord does not measure success in pragmatic terms as are listed above.

As for prophecy, I firmly affirm the scriptures are clear in stating it is certainly in play today and all should seek to - Paul makes this clear without exemption or exception. As has been pointed out previously in this thread, while we all should seek to prophesy that itself doesn’t make us a prophet by office. This is because the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ :)))

Also it’s notable that the person who said "send me” occupied the office of a prophet and not an evangelist 🤷🏽”â™‚️

(In my understanding). We should all say "send me” and have our tasks and positions assigned according to the will of God as revealed by the spirit- just like in Acts.
Additionally while it’s somewhat accurate what you say regarding the vices and virtues of the Church and how it has largely been ineffective... again if we measure the Lords objective of defeating death, the devil, and saving multitudes of people by the same standards, they too seem to fall short yet we know they did not ...

This is not to say we have abounded in Christ as group thus far tho neither did the disciples till they became the "send me’s” apostles, prophets, preachers teachers and evangelists then they turned the world upside down:))) why, how? Because they took up the weapons of Christ willingly by faith 🙏🏻
As it was before so shall it be again, there truly is nothing new under the sun-
While I (and others) see and share the concerns for the modern corporate structured "church” in its mixing of carnal marketing exploits even to the point of reducing the power (dynamo) of God to clever manipulation techniques of the worlds systems, these are but a counterfeit a cheap imitation of the truth of the spirit of God being revealed where holiness and godliness was reduced to feigned morality and obligatory regimented services. Yet God says the fervent prayer of the righteous availeth much😇

To be clear, like you said do believe that the Lord our God has and does use all things (including politics) to the good of His people... even that which was intended for evil- I am simply saying that IF we will get alone with the Lord and let Him minister His will the His body (individually) I believe He will assemble us in the spirit to do His will corporately,.. an army if you will as opposed to well intended albeit unorganized individual soldiers. Whereby Christ will truly be magnified for all the world to see...

At the end of the day, we can’t give someone something we don’t have,... yet what we do have, what is inside us will come out - so let each of us look after the other seeing to it that each are filled with the Spirit of the living God so that when we are pricked or prodded wether by man or the Lord, Jesus comes flowing out like living water bringing spiritual nourishment to all who seek it.

No matter where we are on the geopolitical spectrum... all is soon to be revealed and many will be disillusioned and without hope, so the opportunity to share the gospel, extending the hand of fellowship, inviting them into the kingdom will be greater than any other time in our lifetimes. Paul says, "be instant in and out of season to give an answer for the hope within you” and "be all things to all men that we may win them to Christ” let us be so, so that the Lamb who was slain may indeed receive the reward of His suffering 🙏🏻

Brother Staff, as stated before- while we may not be in lock step on every point, you have been unwavering in your faith and it is very much an encouragement to me and FTR I share in your hope that the Lord wants to and will restore us just as He did Israel so many times before but this is conditional ... (((IF))) those who call on my name (((WILL))) humble themselves and ((((PRAY)))) then I will have mercy on them and restore their land .

Peter & John went to pray, they met a lame man on their way, who held up his palms asking for alms and this is what Peter did say "silver and gold have I none but such as I have give I thee, in the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk” he went jumping and leaping and praising God, jumping and leaping and praising God!!! In the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, RISE UP AND WALK ;)

It's sad how some people would rather listen to prophets, than God himself.

I wonder how many President Trump may have been advised to listen to who told him ("prophesied") he had nothing at all to worry about regarding serving a second term.

Hi Bill,
Their is no evidence for that.How do you know ?Did God tell you?and if he did how did he communicate it?And if its by the Spirit,in a dream or by a vision why should anyone believe you?
Your putting yourself in a a very high ivory tower?
us staff

Hi Docs,
Still here?I dont think it would be scriptural for God to say worry about it.We dont know except he made one comment when the pastors prayed over him in the White house which was something to he the effect of "Well I hope you are right" ,it didnt sound like he was waiting around whittling away time as he campaigned to win like his life depended on it ,urs staff

amen ! JFW, your word then comes strait from the heart of christ , i encourage everyone to stop dragging the chain ,and listen to what he says ....

Hi
The problem here is how do we know his word is from the heart of Christ ?unless the same Spirit that gives dreams,visions and prophecy tells us.What some people are actually saying is contradictory as they are saying God can illuminate scripture but cant communicate through the Spirit in other ways.
God can communicate about a,b and c but he can communicate about x,y and z.We will use old testament scripture when ever its handy but when its not ,its a case of where is that in the New Testament?
The same people cant give an example of any dream,vision or prophecy they agree with and pay lip service to New Testament scipture about prophecy ,dreams and visions.

The reality is their is no real unity in the body of Christ regarding the gifts.If their is no unity in the body regarding the gifts then their is no unity full stop.The only 3 times unity is mentioned in the New Testament is in regards to the proper working of the gifts.We are making a mistake in thinking unity is harmony (as in getting along,trying to see each others point of view and being civil).
I am sure however what JFW comes from Christ but so do alot of people who got dreams ,visions and prophetic words.

JFW, your word then comes strait from the heart of christ , i encourage everyone to stop dragging the chain ,and listen to what he says ....

Staff, it was just a statement/opinion, does everything we say have to come from God? I thought He gave us a free will, I was just exercising my free will. But I do stand by my statement, that I truly believe "SOME" folks listen to Prophets more than God. If they listened "MORE" to God, He "MIGHT" just tell them, don't listen to what that so called Prophet is saying.

You kind of see where I'm coming from? By the way, I'm surely not the Biblical scholar here, but I was gifted with an abundance of common sense, that allows me not to just see outside the box, it allows me to get of the box.

I also believe some folks have allowed to much chatter in their lives, that it has hindered them from hearing His voice and I pray that He will remove that chatter, so we can all hear that still small voice of His spirit within us. Praise Jesus!

Paul wrote to Timothy the following: All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

For this reason ^^^ I go to the incredible, wonderful, and glorious OT for theology as much as the NT. Am I a legalist? No. Do I think the law saves? Not at all. But the OT is where we get a great deal of theology about a LOT of things--prayer, the nature of God, creation, etc.

So to answer the idea that I need to stay out of the OT when developing theology is both dangerous and a complete failure to understand the Bible as a whole.

Hi Havok,
yeah I agree with your qoutes ,,my complaint is people who when it suits they will use the OT but when it doesnt suit they will exclude it for instance in this case "God never tells man about the future" like he did in the OT.
As if we can limit God on what he wants to communicate.
urs staff

"So to answer the idea that I need to stay out of the OT when developing theology is both dangerous and a complete failure to understand the Bible as a whole."

I am not a total cessationist. And I am willing to confess that it is entirely possible that I have just never heard a legitimate prophesy. However, I have not met anyone or seen anyone on TV who did not fall into 1 of the 2 categories.

I even had someone prophesy over my life about what I would be doing in the future--they said I would make unique music with CDs, fame, blah, blah. I have had someone prophesy over me and all they did was flatter me and feed my flesh everything it wanted to hear. I don't believe either of those were from the Lord.

It really has been one disappointment after another after another.

Is that informed by my experience? Sure. But I am willing to hear a prophesy as the bible commands me and test it, like the Bible also says. They've all failed up to this point.

But I haven't heard them all. Maybe a good exercise would be to provide some specific examples of prophesies that have been given that actually came to pass from people who actually proclaim the God of the Bible.

Hi Havok,
I am with all the people who hate the stuff you outlined.
It has been disappointing big time.So has miracles and healing etc.
One thing is that the charlatans wont attach themselves to the dry end of the Church because their is nothing there for them to exploit and no gain to be got.
The mistake is to think that means the dry end of the Church is the correct end .It is not.
As I have said the only way their is unity in the Church is with the gifts in operation correctly.The only time unity is mentioned in the epistles is when the gifts are being discussed.I am not talking about harmony which is different than unity.
I cant throw the baby out with the bathwater.The bible clearly says Prophecy ,dreams and visions are for the Church and that it cant operate correctly without all the gifts and without all the gifts operating in correct order.
Is their a need for Paul,Peter ,James,John and all the lesser known Apostles who didnt write any scripture today,yes is clearly the answer.Is their a need for Agabus and his Four Prophetic daughters today ,yes of course their is.Paul says the prophetic is for Consolation,exhortation and edification .You cant get these in the manner prescribed unless the prophetic is in operation but correctly.

On one practical matter,their are millions more Christians in the world today than in the first century that naturally means their are millions more gifts in the world than the first century.As Paul used parchment paper to administer Church business so we use email,youtube and websites like SI to adminster Church business.Put together those to practical things and you get millions of Christians using modern technology to adminster Church business.
urs staff