Shoud Christians fight for abortion laws?

I might be attacked for my views here but I am sharing my thought process here expecting to validate my thoughts against strong logical argument. Please do not get emotional about this subject as I believe abortion is very emotional.

I do not believe any country enforcing laws to restrict abortion is even feasible on this earth, due to the widespread liberal thinking. Even the USA cannot have federal or state laws to restrict abortion. I am a prolife as any Christian has to be, but that does not mean I can force or want to force any country to have pro-life laws. This means we are actually forcing people to follow prolife policies because our God wants us to be.

1. I believe God hates abortion but how does God want Christians to fight this evil? Is that by influencing politicians to make laws that will bind or force people to avoid abortion? I do not believe it is right. We all think of the millions of lives we save by forcing people to stop abortion. But what prevents this unregenerated person who is forced to have an unwanted baby from abusing the baby after birth? The baby would have better died in the womb rather than being born and abused all their life. In the USA recently a well-respected Baptist Pastor was abusing a CHild from birth and using her as a concubine. When the Church in the USA has degraded to this level where the Pastors are child molesters, what authority do we have to say others should not abort their CHildren because our God told so? Should we not be correcting our own mess first?

So my first point is, in a democratic country like USA it is impossible to have laws against social evils like Abortion or LGBTQ. Eventually, at some stage, the conservative Christians who believe that laws in the USA should be according to Bible will be numbered out. Democracy is a place where people decided how they should be treated and what is best for them. So it is always the majority that dictates.

2. What is God's ordained way for a Christian to fight any social evil? The answer is by being a witness.

Phil 2:14 Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15so that you may be blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and perverse generation, in which you shine as lights in the world

This is God's will for us to be a light in the perverse world. God does not want Christians to put their trust on politicians to be the light to enforce laws that fight this perverse generation. God's desire for the disciples of Christ to be a Light and thereby fight the spirit of perversion in this generation.

The Church has failed this purpose. How many Christians have raised their Children to be light in their generation? *** How many Christians even in this forum, can say that their Children were pure virgins when they got married? If the answer is no then what is the use of bringing laws in USA to fight abortion when your own children are having loose sex outside marriage thereby enocuraigng abortion? ***

Is abortion the only evil today that God hates? What about divorce? Does not our God say he hates divorce (Mal 2:16)? Still the divorce rate in Churches is as much as it is outside Churches? ***How many of these Church going christians who fight against abortion are willing to fight against laws to stop divorce? *** They are not because they themselves have failed marriages and are divorced.

I am not saying to fight against abortion laws a Christian should also be fighting against divorce laws or other social evils. I am saying do not give priority of one over the other. *** I am saying be a light first and live a clear and clean married life with your spouse and raise your Children first to be Godly in this generation *** These are the things that Church should first fight for than against abortion laws. I believe Church has failed here.

***The proof that so many elderly posters in this forum who consider themselves as Strong Christians have divorced and failed to raise Godly offerings, shows their wasted personal testimony. But they will all fight against abortion as that is the only thing in their eyes that God hates!***

I think there is a great deal of self-pleasing religious feel that such Christians get by fighting for prolife laws, hence they keep doing it.

Perhaps the most frequent and insistent attack from Satan to which we are vulnerable is accusation.

We have all heard Satan's lying, hateful voice in our consciences.

But now he seems to post in this forum.

A couple of things:

I understand your point. There are countries where voting is not allowed. Things like abortion are not fought at the national or state level, they are fought in homes and communities. But that isn't America. We CAN vote. We CAN legislatively duke it out at the state and national level. So why not? Does it hurt anything to push for the laws while we simultaneously preach the Gospel? No it does not. There are far too many brothers and sisters in Christ down through the ages who have affected incredibly positive changes in their societies just by loving and following Christ for me to say we should abandon that hope now.

That being said, there are a few things you have said that I believe need to be addressed.

1) "But what prevents this unregenerated person who is forced to have an unwanted baby from abusing the baby after birth?" You are mistaken here. General revelation and the conscience that God has given all men and women come into operation here. Just because an unregenerate mother considered abortion, but did not do it does not mean that child will have a terrible life. Common grace, motherly instincts, and morality revealed through the conscience can make even a wordly woman a motherly woman. On this same vein, to say that if a child is abused that they are useless in this world is a flaw to the greatest degree. By your logic, I should have been aborted along with my sisters for the horrible childhood we all had. Yet, 3 of us are believers and impact our communities well. 2 of us are missionaries and preach the Gospel across the globe.

2) To call abortion and homosexuality a "social evil" is a misnomer, designed to deflect the actual offense of te crime. Those things are evil. God hates those activites. So should you. However, by your logic, Shouldn't I simply avoid from stopping a man from raping a woman and instead just preach the Gospel to him while he's in the act? I think the Bible is clear on this. I am commanded to defend the innocent--and I will do that with every godly means in my considerably small power.

3). "The Church has failed." Please, sree, tell me by what means are you coming to this conclusion? Have the gates of hell been prevailing against the Church? You ask very pointed questions, but you yourself do not know the answer to them. How many are divorced on this forum? How many of the members children were virgins upon marriage? You don't know. You assume you know, but you don't. And to lay that kind of accusation against all of us with hasty generalizations is dangerous.

Yes, christians should absolutely fight for pro life laws. Just because a child might be abused after he or she is born is not an excuse to murder him or her in the womb.

I believe civil law should line up as closely as possible with God's law. Homosexuality, for example, should be illegal. I am not progressive or politically correct, nor will I ever be.

Did you know the founders of the gay rights movement supported pedophilia? And many people want what they call being a "Minor Attracted Person" (pedophile) to be legal. 100 years ago it was unthinkable that homosexuality would ever be seen as normal or acceptable behavior; look how far society has been degraded. Now someone is a "bigot" for not approving the sodomite lifestyle. Mark my words, as society gets worse we will see acceptance of abominations like pedophilia. It's a slippery slope.

The line is drawn in the sand. God's laws do not change, and christians should be unbending and unyielding to the world's demands.

I understand your point. There are countries where voting is not allowed. Things like abortion are not fought at the national or state level, they are fought in homes and communities. But that isn't America. We CAN vote. We CAN legislatively duke it out at the state and national level. So why not? Does it hurt anything to push for the laws while we simultaneously preach the Gospel?

I appreciate your answer here. Yes, there is nothing wrong in voting for someone who supports prolife. My point is to put our hope on that as if it is the only hope. Voting for prolife is not even a God ordained way, it is a privilege that the USA gives to their citizen to choose the way the country should run. If the majority have chosen to run otherwise then there is nothing we can do about it.

For example, in 2016 the majority chose a prolife candidate. But now the elected person is not a prolife, which means the majority have chosen differently. But the question is should the Christians keep fighting for it? I don't believe that is right.

On this same vein, to say that if a child is abused that they are useless in this world is a flaw to the greatest degree. By your logic, I should have been aborted along with my sisters for the horrible childhood we all had. Yet, 3 of us are believers and impact our communities well. 2 of us are missionaries and preach the Gospel across the globe.

No that is not my point. My point is the Child being abused all their life or the child dying by suffering continuous abuse. We have so many such cases. There are so many cases in which mothers have killed their children in a cruel way.

The point is, our hope should be to work on regenerating men through the Gospel not to chain them through state laws. These things are not a foolproof way of preserving or protecting the children.

And to lay that kind of accusation against all of us with hasty generalizations is dangerous.

My point is not to accuse people, my point is are we using abortion laws as a replacement for Christian testimony. Because the Church in the USA has failed to be a pure testimony, which is evident by the number of divorces in the Churches in the USA, lack of young people gripped by the gospel, etc. The Christians in America are focusing on such laws to ease their conscience.

In a country with such a high number of CHurches and a Christian population, there is no need for laws to chain people from sin, rather the spread of the Gospel.

Hi Sree,
The overwhelming evidence is that the democrats helped by censorship from big tech and lies by main stream media used various methods to fraud and were beaten comfortably .

"For example, in 2016 the majority chose a prolife candidate. But now the elected person is not a prolife, which means the majority have chosen differently"

urs staff

Now someone is a "bigot" for not approving the sodomite lifestyle. Mark my words, as society gets worse we will see acceptance of abominations like pedophilia. It's a slippery slope.

I agree with this point. Yes as Bible says the generation will get more and more perverse. No stopping it.

The LGBTQ people search for acceptance in the society so that their sin can spread. As Christians we should never accept this practice as normal.

I believe civil law should line up as closely as possible with God's law. Homosexuality, for example, should be illegal. I am not progressive or politically correct, nor will I ever be.

This is where I disagree with you. Can you give a Biblical support that we Christians should support the civil law to line up with God's law?

Here are my points against such views,
1. If we believe in a Christian majority nation, civil laws should be governed by Christian principles then we should also accept in Muslim nations, Sheria law should be used. But Sharia law is clearly anti-Christian and prevent the spread of the Gospel by persecuting Christians. How do we call that evil but call Christian laws in USA as good?

Other than our personal bias, there is no way we can give a clear answer to this question.

2. Because Christians are supporting civil laws based on Bible, Church has to mix with politics. A church should never have anything to do with politics. Jesus nor the apostles did anything with the politics of their time.

Sree, let me ask you a question: do you think pedophilia should be legal?

I fear We put the cart before the horse when we demand the unconverted follow God’s ways! They cannot, they are blinded by the spirit of this age. Without knowing Jesus intimately, they will not obey. The call from God’s messengers from Old and New Testament as I grow in knowledge of our Savior is repent and turn to, or turn back to God through Jesus Christ, and literally and spiritually follow Jesus.

The laws of Christ [agape love being the top priority, and flowing downward through the rest] should and were used within the church, to grow the church into the image of Christ through the empowering and continual direction of the Holy Spirit within each born again one. By the Word of God ministered through the various parts of the body of Christ, unto and with the rest of the growing body of Christ.

To throw laws down for unconverted people to follow I fear is a waste of energy and time God has provided us with to win the lost for Christ and grow His body into the fullness of Christ. These laws will not get them one step closer to Christ and without Christ they will still go to the lake of fire!

We each know Gods grace has been holding people back from more sever outreaches of sin for an extremely long time. We also know that, that grace is promised to diminish bit by bit. Until unrighteousness goes full swing.

Perhaps God has called some to put energy into politics, if so I fathom it is to win others to Jesus and thus them to become apart of Christ body to help us all grow into the Image Of Christ. It’s suppose to be all about Jesus. I have been given perhaps a cup full, probably less of God’s oceans of knowledge though, so at the end of the day may God be glorified and His will be done on earth as it already is in heaven. We will each answer to Him one day and all will be burnt but the gold, silver and precious stones from our lives.

May God open my eyes to my blind spots in His mercy, and the eyes of my brethren as well in His mercy. So we all can see clearer what He would have of us daily. May we each heed His voice and follow Him wherever He leads. Growing into the image of Christ. Even if like Paul and Peter it is to our physical deaths as His witnesses, or John where we continue to tell of the glorious truths of Christ till old age.

Billy, I agree. Legislation will not make anyone holy; the world does not know what love is. They don't know Jesus.

Read Romans 13 though. The proper purpose of government is to punish evildoers. Sometimes they fall short of their God-appointed purpose, but that does not negate the scriptural mandate given to governments.

"A wise king scatters the wicked, and brings the threshing wheel over them." Proverbs 20:26

Sree, let me ask you a question: do you think pedophilia should be legal?

No, I don't believe it should be legal. In the same way, as I believe abortion should not be legal and also gay marriage. But I don't believe we as Christians should fight to make them illegal.

To throw laws down for unconverted people to follow I fear is a waste of energy and time God has provided us with to win the lost for Christ and grow His body into the fullness of Christ. These laws will not get them one step closer to Christ and without Christ they will still go to the lake of fire!

I agree with you completely. I want to add that this restriction of unconverted people in the name of Biblical laws in the country, we are only turning people away from the Bible and God's love.

I cannot believe a woman who wants to abort her unplanned child will come to christ just because there is a law to prevent her from doing what she wanted. Instead, she will further move away from Christ in whose name such laws are established in this country.

She can come to Christ by Christians around her being a light to her though.

I'm not trying to pick an argument with you.

But, and let me make sure I am not misunderstanding you, you don't believe we should oppose pedophilia being legalized?

Sree, that's absolutely bonkers.

I agree with you completely. I want to add that this restriction of unconverted people in the name of Biblical laws in the country, we are only turning people away from the Bible and God's love.

So we should show them how much we love them by letting them murder and abuse their children?

Please correct me where I’m wrong as much of what you are saying finds concordance with my spirit 🙏🏻

If I’m understanding you correctly, you are saying that a/the Law cannot bring righteousness. Full stop

In this case you aren’t opposed to laws being enacted to protect the innocent, but you are saying as the body of Christ this isn’t our primary objective as it does not produce the fruit we are sent to harvest.
- Righteousness thru faith in Christ -

You are saying, yes vote your conscience for all good ! But don’t let that be where we (the body of Christ) overcommit to the cause of affecting the lower law only but primarily focus our efforts and intentions to affecting the world round about us thru allowing Gods influence (grace) to flow thru us to both believers and unbelievers alike. If we get too caught up in the civilian affairs of this world, we are distracted and more likely to have strife and factions due to our identifying ourselves with that cause which makes us less focused and less effective in the spiritual battle.

This is what I’ve gotten from you in this thread, feel free to correct or ignore 🙏🏻

The Gospel is central to everything we do. There is no doubt about that. We must be proclaiming the Gospel. People need to be saved. We must be faithful and diligent as individuals and as churches to make sure that is happening. However, to suggest that it is better that a mother murder her child than to allow that child to live and (potentially) be abused is absurd.

Think about it, with that logic, I could go to a child, who is being abused, even violently or horrifically and say "it would have been better if you had just been killed in the womb." What kind of convoluted statement is that? It isn't godly. It is evil. It denies the intrinsic value of the person and it most certainly is a de facto denial of the doctrine of the Imago Dei. You don't know what kind of life the non-aborted child is going to lead. You don't know how God plans to use them. And believing something like that will NOT get them saved nor motivate you to witness to them.

"But what prevents this unregenerated person who is forced to have an unwanted baby from abusing the baby after birth? The baby would have better died in the womb rather than being born and abused all their life." Show me this principle anywhere in Scripture.

"The proof that so many elderly posters in this forum who consider themselves as Strong Christians have divorced and failed to raise Godly offerings, shows their wasted personal testimony. But they will all fight against abortion as that is the only thing in their eyes that God hates!"

Who in the world are you talking about here? I hate divorce. I hate sexual immorality. I hate abortion. I hate all those sins. Every godly person I know hates them as well. Just who are you pointing the finger at here, sree? At the Church? You have no right to condemn the entire church in this matter, because your beliefs are not justified. I can hardly bring a logical argument against your case because you literally provide no evidence for the things you claim! This is insanity to abuse the bride of Jesus Christ like this.

You said: "I want to add that this restriction of unconverted people in the name of Biblical laws in the country, we are only turning people away from the Bible and God's love." Sounds a lot like "let us sin that good may come." You're walking a dangerous line here, my friend. Prove to me that this is the case. Show me how me voting for certain laws causes lost people to remain unconverted. The bible makes it clear that the law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. If there are no laws, if there are no morals, and everyone does what is right in their own eyes, then how would we ever be able to express the need for repentance from sin? Sure, we can show them the Bible, but if the government is doing what it was meant to do per Romans 13, then they will punish the wicked and reward the good. Without moral laws based upon the general revelation of God, the conscience that God has given us, and frankly the special revelation of God (the Bible), then people will be so immoral and wicked and ignorant of that, that I don't think we'd be able to convince them that what they are doing is evil.

Q: Should Christians fight for abortion laws?

I do think that there is an error in the premise of the question itself. The idea of "fighting" is not exactly what Christians are trying to do when it comes to abortion. Rather, it is sharing a collective voice of the Christian community.

One error in the concept of government (and the role of Christians in it) is that the idea of "government" and "law" seems quite faceless and nameless. This might be due to the long history of monarchies, theocracies and dictatorships in human history.

The United States was very different during its founding. It created a government "of the people, by the people and for the people." In fact, the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution says the following:

WE THE PEOPLE of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Thus, in the very foundational legal document of the United States, the purpose of the Constitution (the law of the land) is to "form a more perfect Union." This includes the following:

- Establish Justice
- Insure Domestic Tranquility
- Provide for the common defense
- Promote the general Welfare
- Secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity

To be clear: This is not really the Constitution OF the United States of America. Rather, it is the Constitution FOR the United States of America.

Obviously, you cannot mandate godliness. You cannot legislate salvation either. That isn't the purpose of the law (even the Law of Moses). The law establishes a set of statutes for righteousness.

Interestingly, the foundation of law in the United States itself is based upon the principle known as the "consent of the governed."

As such, the law exists in America because we (the people) consent to its existence. Even the Constitution is not a law that tells us what we can or cannot do. Rather, it exists to tell the American government what it cannot do -- because we have "natural rights."

John Locke was one of the English philosophers who influenced the founders of America. He pushed the idea of "tabula rasa" -- a clean slate. This was somewhat revolutionary at the time. He pointed out that there was no real "divine right of kings." Rather, babies were born into a sinful world yet with a clean slate -- not yet having committed a sin.

This became a foundation for America. With this in mind, a republic was born with a constitution that LIMITS government by remanding the rights to the people themselves.

The law exists because we agree upon it. If we want that law to change, then we can change it at local and state levels. If that law is deemed by the Supreme Court to be unconstitutional, then we still have an ability to amend the Constitution too.

Let's be clear: Abortion is murder. To believers, this is some evil "right" for a mother to solicit a medical practitioner to KILL her very own child. There is no "right" in the Constitution.

The Roe v. Wade decision insinuated that there was a "right of privacy" (so that a doctor could recommend an abortion). However, that law itself doesn't even state that abortion is actually a constitutional "right."

So, what should Christians do?

I believe that the idea that Christians should sit idly by -- doing, saying and influencing nothing -- while the world around us moves toward immorality is a bad idea.

We have an ability to influence. Obviously, our first method is by sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world. At the same time, we can share our voice. We have a voice -- via a vote -- in determining who governs us (temporarily as it might be) and, of course, the laws of this land.

Corrie ten Boom and her family defied the laws of the Nazi subjugators. She hid Jews in a hiding place in her home. She obtained extra rations too. Her family paid for their insurrection with their lives. Other Christians have done likewise.

Corrie ten Boom believed that God's law superseded the demands of the Nazis. She believed, as many Dutch resistance people did, that the people of their land had a natural right to determine the laws of the land. Thus, they weren't subjects to the Nazi laws.

The early church echoed this when they considered whether it was right to obey God or men. If we have an ability to influence the law -- as temporary citizens of a country -- then why not share our voice that reflects our heavenly citizenship?

This is an area where I think science may ultimately have more of an effect than evangelical protest or voting.

At some point there will be undeniable evidence that a fetus is a human being. For example, we will be able to establish that an unborn child thinks, has emotion, etc. As cience progresses evidence will become undeniable.

It will get to the point that a pro abortion person would have to make the argument "we know a fetus is fully human but we want the right to kill it anyway.” I don’t see that going over too well.

After all, even sea turtle eggs are protected.

You are saying, yes vote your conscience for all good ! But don’t let that be where we (the body of Christ) overcommit to the cause of affecting the lower law only but primarily focus our efforts and intentions to affecting the world round about us thru allowing Gods influence (grace) to flow thru us to both believers and unbelievers alike. If we get too caught up in the civilian affairs of this world, we are distracted and more likely to have strife and factions due to our identifying ourselves with that cause which makes us less focused and less effective in the spiritual battle.

Yes, that is my exact point. You have put it in better words.

I am NOT against people using their democratic rights to vote for a person who is prolife. But to set their heart on such a person and call such a person a messenger of God to save those unborn children, these things I am against.

Vote based on your conscience but do not set your hope on the laws. This is not God-ordained way to fight any evil.

Also, Churches and Christian leaders supporting political candidates because they are prolife is also pure evil. Let them vote for whom they want but not come public in their support. This to me is very similar to Muslim leaders enforcing Sheria law in Islamic countries by controlling the politics. I find no difference between Islam and Christianity in USA, both are in the same gutter of politics.

Corrie ten Boom and her family defied the laws of the Nazi subjugators. She hid Jews in a hiding place in her home. She obtained extra rations too. Her family paid for their insurrection with their lives. Other Christians have done likewise.

The Tenboom family did not get involved in politics to fight Hitler and the killing of Jews.

The equivalent of what they did in this scenario could be to find mothers who wanted to abort their children and convincing them that you will raise the child as your own and raising them safely. There is nothing wrong in this.

I also know a very Godly elder brother in my native place who was a doctor in a government facility. He rejected to treat women who were getting abortions as it is against his faith. The government authorities thretened to fire him, he answered them that he is willing to lose his life anytime, so just losing a job will not make any difference!

Such testimonies are great, but this cheap testimony to fight for a politician just because he is willing to support prolife is what I am against.

Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.

Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy. Prov 31:8-9 NIV

Thus says the LORD: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place. Jer 22:3 ESV

Edit to add a scripture

This is a historical Christian conviction, one that caused Christians over the centuries to risk their lives to protect the defenseless and weak and to fight against oppression.

People in this forum are not answering one of my fundamental question.

If you believe Christians in the USA should unite and fight to influence civil law then will you also accept Muslims doing the same in Islamic nations and Hindus doing the same in India, Napal etc? When Islamic nations due to the influence of Islam prevent the spread of gospel by banning the Bible, we say that is wrong, but we have no problem with us Christians influencing the law in the USA.

Religion should have nothing to do with Politics and civil law. Civil law should give everyone freedom to do what they want unless it is affecting the freedom of others.

Religion should have nothing to do with Politics and civil law. Civil law should give everyone freedom to do what they want unless it is affecting the freedom of others.

The Quran and the Bhagavad Gita are not inspired by God. The Bible is. So no, I do not accept Muslims or Hindus passing laws in accordance with their religions. There is no such thing as neutrality. Atheist governments are anything but neutral. I think christians should influence laws not only in the U.S., but in every country in the world.

Is a homosexual practicing his sin affecting me? Ask Lot. Sin brings God's judgment on a nation. Everything a person does affects others in some way, even if it is a sin done in secret.

"Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people." Proverbs 14:34

Hi Sree,

The Tenboom family did not get involved in politics to fight Hitler and the killing of Jews.

What makes you say this? What evidence do you have to make this claim?

Let me (again) make it clear that this is not "fighting." Rather, a vote in the United States is simply sharing your VOICE. It is a voice about who you think should be the Chief Executive Officer for the next four years. Period.

This isn't about choosing a pastor.
It isn't about selling your soul for politics.

Rather, this is simply sharing a voice about which person you think would make decisions that embrace righteousness over unrighteousness.

To be clear: Corrie ten Boom and her family were following God rather than man. They were abiding by what John Locke and the founders of America would call "natural laws" or "natural rights."

There are examples of believers who impacted their nations through vocal participation.

Consider William Wilberforce. He pushed England for the abolition of slavery.

Consider Telemachus. He was a believer who tried to stop individuals from being killed by gladiators in a Roman ampitheatre. He was stoned by the crowd -- but the Roman emperor heard about his death and ended the practice.

Consider the fight against slavery in the United States. From even before the story of the "Amistad" to the end of the Civil War, it was BELIEVERS who loudly opposed the practice.

Consider the Civil Rights movement in America. It was largely comprised of ministers -- white and black -- voicing opposition to this.

Let's be clear: I don't know anyone who is placing their faith in Donald Trump. He is little more than a flawed human vessel. Most people didn't vote for Trump's personality; rather, they voted for his policies.

At the same time, voting is a choice between the remaining candidates for a temporary office. Trump was the better choice because the alternatives in 2016 and 2020 proudly embrace a form of unrighteousness, immorality and ungodliness that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

Many believers were simply making a choice and voicing for others to do the same.

Hi Sree,

Civil law should give everyone freedom to do what they want unless it is affecting the freedom of others.

I disagree.

As I stated before, law in a republic is based upon the consent of the governed. That consent is formulated by our morals. Those morals are very often shaped by our faith.

The Constitution for the United States exists to place limits on the FEDERAL government. The 10th Amendment delegate most governing responsibilities to the states.

So, the Constitution doesn't give us rights. Rather, it exists to restrict the federal government from taking away what are deemed to be fundamental natural rights.

There are laws that are prohibitive and punitive in nature. We have laws that govern everything from restrictions on marriage (by age, relationship, etc.) to laws that govern who can drink alcohol, who can drive, who can go to school, etc.

These laws are based upon the consent of the governed. If "we the people" do not like a law, we can petition our representatives in government and even the courts to overturn such laws. Even if the Supreme Court rules that a law is "constitutional," the Constitution itself can be amended to a point that it would change the law.

Voting is not simply a "right." Rather, it is a responsibility. It is the responsibility to share your voice -- a decision -- based upon your own beliefs. As believers, our morality is shaped by our faith. So, our voice -- our vote -- can cancel out the voices (and votes) of those who are antagonistic toward God.

We aren't trying to legislate salvation or even godliness. Rather, we are trying to prevent others from legislate unrighteousness, immorality and ungodliness. We're trying to prevent others from using their voice (vote) and influencing our children through it.

"When Islamic nations due to the influence of Islam prevent the spread of gospel by banning the Bible, we say that is wrong, but we have no problem with us Christians influencing the law in the USA."

Sree, that's because Islam is a lie. Why would I support the propogation of idolatry, lies, and wickedness?

I stand for truth. And truth isn't found in Islam, hinduism, or any other religion, save for what can be known by general revelation. Civil Law must be based upon something, and that something is the innate morality that is found within people that has been placed in them--not by society, not by Allah, not by man-made religion--by by God, Himself, who is the Author of the Bible. So, if we want to base laws on something that is concrete truth, then we base it upon the Bible! We are not secularists, we are Christians.

Also, I do not have to deal with your "fundamental question" since your argument is so poor. There are plenty of holes in it that do not match the truth of the word of God.

Sree, that's because Islam is a lie. Why would I support the propogation of idolatry, lies, and wickedness?

I appreciate this answer but it is Subjective. Suppose you are living in an Islamic nation and were tortured by the government for your faith, will you tell them that they are wrong to let Islam influence the government but Christians can do that in the USA?

I have lived as a Christian in India where we are ruled by the Hindutva government. They persecute the Church to please Hindus. They have laws like anticonversion laws to preserve the Hindu population from Christian conversion. They even have a law where marrying outside the Hindu religion is punishable! The root of all this is the mix of Hinduism and politics. Hindus need political support because their gods are not real and impotent to protect them. But that is not the same with our Christian God. Why do we act like we have the same impotent gods by exptecting political backing?

This is like Israelities asking for an earthly king because the nations around them are having kings. Since nations around them are controlled by their pagan religions, we Christians in the USA want the same.

Sree,

If you are wordly and secular it is subjective, but we are talking about TRUTH and that is not subjective. The Word of God is the objective truth in all things.

Your experiences are subjective, which is what you're basing your argument on. However, the Scriptures are not. That is your fundamental error. Whether you realize it or not, your words reflect someone who does not believe that there is objective, moral truth.

It's called Post-Modernism.

Your experiences are subjective, which is what you're basing your argument on. However, the Scriptures are not. That is your fundamental error. Whether you realize it or not, your words reflect someone who does not believe that there is objective, moral truth.

It's called Post-Modernism.

As a Christian, I do believe in Objective moral truth. I am also well aware of logical arguments to prove objective morality. But like you said in the post-modernism, in which people do not believe in Objective morality, should we not be different? Should we not be different as a Christian and stay away from politics?

I strongly believe that as Christians who believe in a true living God, we should be separate from State and its civil laws. This is how I see Jesus and the Apostles living. They never commanded us to influence the country we live in to follow Biblical laws. But Islam teaches that in Muslim majority nations, the laws should be governed by Islam and all non-Muslims should be forcibly subject to Sheria law. Hindus even though they do not have clear teachings, they too are following the footsteps of Islam to protect their religion.

As Christian how are we different? If we too take the same route then how are we showing the world that our kingdom is not of this world?

We may agree to disagree, but at least I am bringing a different discussion to this table which has some truth to it.

Once Zakir Naik, a famous Islamic preacher from India and now living in the middle east, was asked this question. How do we Muslims fight against Hindu laws in India but in our Muslim majority nations, we force Hindus to follow Islamic laws. He gave the same answer that you gave. He said we know that Islam is the truth and hence we will force Hindus but we will not allow them to force us because they are believing in the lie. I don't find your answer different from his!

Quote: Religion should have nothing to do with Politics and civil law.

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 1 Tim 2:1-2

Your thinking doesn't line up with scripture; we are urged to pray for Kings and Politicians this is the place Christian should get involved with politics and the shaping civil law.

The Lord's prayer as we pray it we are asking for a new government according to God's will - thy kingdom come; thy will be done; on earth as it is in heaven.

Do we understand that we are asking for when we ask the earth to be like heaven?

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations Matthew 28:18-19

We are commanded to make disciple of all nations.

Is there a valid hope to influence nations for the glory of God? A quick look at history tells us that, yes, the gospel really can and should change nations.

Hans Nielsen Hauge (1771-1824), a lay preacher who spent decades promoting revival in Norway, helped to transform the religious and social landscape of his homeland.

Willian Wilberforce wrote in his diary - October 28, 1787: "God Almighty has set before me two great objectives, the suppression of the Slave Trade and the reformation of morals.

For the next forty-six years Wilberforce worked tirelessly to change English law, to change English culture and to change the English economy in order to end the English slave trade. Three days before his death on July 26, 1833, the House of Commons passed the bill that abolished slavery in the entire British Empire. This was not done by a preacher, but by a Christian serving God in civil government.

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 1 Tim 2:1-2

Your thinking doesn't line up with scripture; we are urged to pray for Kings and Politicians this is the place Christian should get involved with politics and the shaping civil law.

Totally unscriptural. We are asked to pray for people in power so that we might find mercy in their eyes to worship our God with full freedom. The only thing we are asked to pray is freedom for Christians. Not for Christians to even influence civil laws. This is taking things that the scriptures do not ask us to do. This does not even in the slightest ounce sound like Christians should take part in politics! Even a 6-year-old who can read 1 Timothy 2, will not come to this conclusion. The difference is the 6-year-old does not have personal agendas hence it can plainly see what the scripture says but we are using scripture to justify our personal agendas.

Is there a valid hope to influence nations for the glory of God? A quick look at history tells us that, yes, the gospel really can and should change nations.

There is a huge world of difference between gospel changing the nations and we changing the nation using politics! Gospel changes the nation by changing men inside out. By changing their value system. But when we do it via politics we are placing burden and laws upon uncovered souls. When we do by the gospel we bring glory to God but when we do by involving in politics we bring Shame to the name of God like what happened in the capital few weeks back.

Clearly, you are extending scripture by adding things that scripture does not say. This is dangerous and destructive.

*sigh*

Sree, due the lack of answering any of the questions I have posed to you, the refusal to engage with others in the forum regarding their questions and objections to your position, and the lack of Scriptural support for anything that you have said, I am forced to no longer continue discussing this with you.

If you are trying to win a debate, here ya go. You win. Congratulations. I concede.

If you're trying to make a theological statement, you're doing a poor job. What little truth you have said is clouded by the radical and ungodly ideas you are associating with them.

so many places in this thread I have appreciated the answers given by people who disagree with me. This is a discussion. I have clearly explained 1 Tim 2:2 which was explained incorrectly by another poster here. There is no proof in New Covenant of Jesus or Apostles involving in Politics nor trying to influence civil law. So anyone who calls me theologically wrong has to post scriptures that proves me wrong. There is none that shows that Christians can involve in politics.

One may not agree with my perception that is because most of the posters here have the western mentality and MAY NOT have suffered persecution for their faith in the hands of heathen in a heathen nation. Once a person goes through that they will understand what Christians do in the USA by influencing the politics and civil law is clearly wrong.

Since when did the Old Testament become invalid? We see people like Joseph, Daniel and Esther being used by God in ungodly governments. God is fully capable of raising up godly politicians to do His will.

Quote: Not for Christians to even influence civil laws.

You miss the point - as soon as you pray for a politician or a King we are inserting ourselves into politics which will in the end influence and change civil laws.

Quote: There is a huge world of difference between gospel changing the nations and we changing the nation using politics!

You cannot separate the two - Gospel(Christian message) and people. The Gospel can't change anything without christians people to bring the Gospel(Christian message) - It is the faith of those christians that causes them to do, it is faith that cause them to go and make disciples of all nations.

I gave you two examples of men one who changed civil law and one ho brought religious, social, economic and political change to a nation.

1. William Wilberforce who worked to change civil law.
2. Hans Nielsen Hauge who brought religious, social, economic
and political change to Norway

You miss the point - as soon as you pray for a politician or a King we are inserting ourselves into politics which will in the end influence and change civil laws.

This is true, by our prayers if we are influencing the civil laws that is a different story. But my quesion is should we fight to keep the civil law in line with Bible?

I gave you two examples of men one who changed civil law and one ho brought religious, social, economic and political change to a nation.

1. William Wilberforce who worked to change civil law.
2. Hans Nielsen Hauge who brought religious, social, economic
and political change to Norway

I don't know about either of them, but I know about MLK in the USA. He was a renowned Pastor. He fought against the unjust laws against a particular race. He even joined hands with politicians to bring a change in civil laws.

His justification was - "when we fight against an unjust law, it is same as obeying a just law". The unjust law in our discussion can also be abortion laws. So according to MLK, there is nothing wrong if a Christian fights against abortion laws, nor join hands with politicians to abolish it.

Even though I respect what MLK has achieved, I don't know if it is a Christian way. To fight against civil laws to bring a change even for the right reason, is that a Christian way?

For example, Jesus was once asked a question about paying tax to Caesar. It was clearly unjust law to tax the Jews in their own land by a foreigner. But Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar's. So even if the law is unjust, just obey it for the sake of conscience.

Jesus also taught his disciples to obey the Pharisees in because they sit at Moses' seat. But not to follow their example. He never encouraged rebellion against authorities unless there is a loss of our freedom to worship our God.

"...what Christians do in the USA by influencing the politics and civil law..."

...might be the reason why Americans...

"...MAY NOT have suffered persecution for their faith in the hands of heathen in a heathen nation."

https://endabortionnow.com/video_posts/arguing-with-a-planned-parenthood-supporter/

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

A W Tozer quote -
The teachings of Jesus belong to the Church, not to society, for in society is sin, and sin is hostility to God! Christ did not teach that He would impose His teachings upon the fallen world. He called His disciples to Him and taught them, and everywhere throughout His teachings there is the overt or implied idea that His followers will constitute an unpopular minority group in an actively hostile world. The divine procedure is to go into the world of fallen men, preach to them the necessity to repent and become disciples of Christ and, after making disciples, to teach them "the ethics of Jesus," which Christ called "all things which I have commanded you." The ethics of Jesus cannot be obeyed or even understood until the life of God has come to the heart of a man or woman in the miracle of the new birth. The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk in the Spirit. Christ lives again in His redeemed followers the life He lived in Judea, for righteousness can never be divorced from its source, which is Jesus Christ Himself!

I thought this quote is in line to what I am trying to say here.

Hi All,
God raises up,kings,queens democratic leaders or at least allows them to take positions.
It doesnt mean that all of these leaders elected or not are going to be unsaved.It doesnt mean that a Godly leader cant make,influence and enact Godly laws.Unsaved people will benefit from Godly laws as will the Godly.
Jesus never taught that people in political authority of whatever kind could or would not be saved.Godly political leaders can only do Godly things which includes making and enacting Godly laws.
Their were times when society was openly hostile against Christians as happened with Paul and their were times that society were not openly hostile to Christians as happened with Billy Graham.

Billy Graham once said, "I know it’s common today to think of abortion as a simple answer to an inconvenient problem””but it is actually a far more serious issue. Your child isn’t simply a mass of tissue; he or she is a human being in God’s eyes.”
----------==============
They are a human in God's eyes and the God who heard the innocent blood of Abel cry up from the ground also hears the cry of the blood of millions of children from the ground.

Millions of Children ,many who would have become born again and many of these would have preached the Gospel.God has a responsiblity to these millions who are his Children.
As well as preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ we are to be truthful and be on the side of truth.We cant turn a blind eye to wrong doing to the defenceless.God still does not condone or turn a blind eye to murder.

Should William Wilbourforce have fought relentlessly to end slavery in the British empire?
Was Abraham Lincoln wrong to fight to stop slavery in the USA?
Was Martin Luther King wrong to protest and break the law to stop discrimination of black people?

Galatians

10 So then while we have opportunity, let’s do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith

Surely doing good to all people also includes unborn babies .Can we do anymore good of a thing for them than working to enact laws that protect them and recognize them as humans and Gods children?
urs staff

Right or wrong...

https://youtu.be/_u9j2GYWuqg

Thank you 🙏🏻

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

God is the same today and yesterday and forever .In the old Testament he only stood for Child Sacrifice for so long and then came the Judgement.Jesus coming did not change this.God only takes Child Sacrifice for so long and then the Judgement.
We the Christians are the only ones that know that Abortion is Child Sacrifice.We the Christians are the only ones that knows the spirit behind Abortion is the same as it was back in the Old Testament.

I did not read all the responses to the OP but have a few opinions.

As we view the civil laws in any county they are made to limit anti-social behaviors by lawless, evil people otherwise you will have a chaotic society ruled by violence. The OT had laws that governed people's behavior.

Having worked at a CPC for 15 years I have come to a conclusion that some would consider radical. It was my belief back then that if the church would aggressively teach against the sin of immorality and discipline the unrepentant members the numbers of abortions would drop substantially. A lot of those having abortions were people in a church. (I will admit church numbers have dropped since then). In any case most ab minded people know it is wrong/sin. But it is odd that church people believe the state should restrict a behavior the church is powerless to stop among its own people.

Then there is the push to legalize pedophilia. Lord, have mercy! if you will have laws that can allow this atrocity inflicted upon children without fear of prosecution!!! No child will be safe in public.

And divorce...if the church would not allow its members to remarry after a divorce the numbers would drop, I am sure.

My point in case you missed it is that if the church would teach holiness, obedience a lot of these social ills would not be as widespread as it is. Even among our own people the pressure exists to be more accommodating.

We live in terrible times, for sure.

Sandra

Hi Sandra,
If the Church was more for the want of a better word successful in all aspects then yeah we would see a drop in sinfulness fair enough.
God though has to look at the bigger picture of what is better for the Church and for the world.John The Baptist preached against Herod for marrying his brothers wife in his successful message of repentance.He had to show that generation what was right and what was wrong.
Does not God hear the cry of the saved and the unsaved?Is he not lord of the whole Earth and not just the Church?
God does call Christians to be leaders in society whether people like it or not.Look at William Wilbourforce.These leaders that are Christians have a duty to God as well as to their stewardship to do,vote and influence the right thing in society for Christian and Non Christian alike.God had even concern for the cattle in Nineveh and so much more concern for the unsaved in our time.
Not alone do I think we should fight in every non violent way possible to stop Child Sacrifice but that we should do a better job of it,urs staff

My point in case you missed it is that if the church would teach holiness, obedience a lot of these social ills would not be as widespread as it is. Even among our own people the pressure exists to be more accommodating.

Yes sister, what you have mentioned here is to some extent the crux of the main post as well. Paul himself said this in 1 Cor 5 -

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked person from among you.

But today the Church is busy telling whom to vote to oppose these social evils in the world but is least concerned about being a witness. If Apostle Paul was alive, he would care least about abortion laws in the country but will preach against evils like divorce, remarriage and loose sexual life that is seen in the churches today.

The main point in my post is, the Church has failed to be a wintness to the world hence it is trying to compensate by means of these cheap political practices like aboriton law etc. And mordern day politicians are utilizing this failed position of the church to their political advantage by giving false hope like they fight against abortion. If any politician is really interested then why is it difficult to make anti abortion laws federal? The truth is no one cares, they just want to use the religious sentiments to their advantage.

Hi,
If Paul were alive to today he would difinitely be against Abortion no doubt about that.We are not talking about judgement of the world.In context Paul had no judgement power over the world but he had over the Church.
(On a side issue that authority is missing today in the Church.)
We are talking about William Wilberforce who wrestled with the idea of giving up politics due to his conversion and ruled against it primarily to get rid of slavery.
If we went along the route suggested here we would be living in western democratic countries today that would have black minorities still as slaves while preaching Christianity.What a bad witness that would be.The headline would be "Christians refuse to condemn slavery" as its none of their business!
The process of getting rid of Abortion is clear ,it has to be defeated in a case brought to the supreme court.The supreme court would have to have appointees sympathetic to defeating it and the correct case would have to come before them.We now have since President Trump's 3 appointees enough judges to change the law.This is not false hope ,for the first time in decades we have the judges in place.
The Church can both be a witness to the world and at the same time do the right thing regarding laws of the country.We can do both at the same time!
Or we can sit back ,not get involved and have abortion,slavery,child abuse etc ...the choice is simple because if the Church isnt willing to stand up for what is right as well as witness then it doesnt matter how many people are saved or repent the world will still operate on evil laws,
urs staff

Yet our weapons are not are not carnal but spiritual and mighty 💯
We can pray today that every woman who has an abortion scheduled today would come under great conviction of the value of the life they carry within them... that they would see and witness a child and it’s mother enjoying intimacy and be pricked in their own heart, provoked to jealousy. We can pray that their own fond memories of their own childhood would be illuminated in such an inescapable way that their very conscience would bear witness to the joy of childbearing and motherhood. That those round about them whom have ear to hear the Lord would boldly and earnestly contend, interceding on behalf of the child yet unborn, that they might themselves have an opportunity to live and know the love of Christ and thereby glorify God. That the Lord Himself might excite movement so the child would require the mother to acknowledge and confess the child within her womb is alive and was fearfully and wonderfully made in the likeness and image of God the Father. We can pray that these convictions will be followed by a movement of His spirit, turning the attention of the mother to see Jesus high and lifted up,... that through this experience she may draw close unto the Lord, seeing and knowing His comfort and confidence. That through her experience that the seed of His word might find the good ground of her heart, taking root and growing, bearing much fruit to the glory of the Lord 😇
Yes brothers and sisters we should fight, and pray for His law of love to be so on earth as it is in heaven 🙏🏻
Don’t despise small beginnings and never under estimate what God can do with 1 second left on the clock ;)

Hi JFW,
And when we pray.....
God will raise up leaders to political positions that will appoint just judges on the SCOTUS that will vote against abortion,
God will raise up Christians who are discerning enough to vote for the right person in the election
God will raise up Christians like William Wilberforce who didnt except slavery as a concept but fought the good fight to the very end and won,
urs staff

And we are praying the gov to police the church folks when its leaders and members refuse to do so?

(FYI) A high percentage of those that want AB are fornicators and adulteresses.

Church culture has so evolved that it has become acceptable to embrace single parenting all in the name of forgiveness and love. But it wont stop there - keep on sinning the people will forgive and eventually come to accept it and it will/does - and so it goes on and on....Repentance is not taught or expected but love and forgiveness is. SIGH

Am I sitting on an island away from reality? I do not think so. We had a church member that would get involved in adultery. When it was discovered he would make the most impressive apology only to resume it at a later date. After each episode he was excommunicated and after a spell it was lifted. But then he did it again (and again and again and again) and the cycle resumed. It ended up that we had to shun him for lack of repentance and sorrow for sin. Some people think we are not loving. Sin divides and effects the Believers in any Brotherhood.

Sounds like I am weary...

Sandra

Yes of course we want abortion to be illegal and yes of course we pray for godly representation in all aspects of governance... yet that is not our only or even our primary battleground-

Abortion is less of a problem and more of a symptom of fatherless (unmarried) homes.... this is a spiritual issue more than a legal one and that’s where our weapons are most effective:)

In the grand scheme of things, our attention and focus should be primarily the spiritual (behind the scenes) battle. Which is not to say we forgo participation in every avenue the Lord grants us opportunity, including the social, cultural, judicial and political spheres tho we can and should influence them from a primarily spiritual disposition. If we seek the Lord for light on how and when to do so, He will give it 🙏🏻

Yes ma’am and it will most likely get worse before it gets better... tho we who are sober can and should pray... interceding for those whom have strayed.

14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Hi JFW,
We can do both the primary and the secondary .

my qoute from earlier

"We can do both at the same time!"

Your qoute

"Yes of course we want abortion to be illegal and yes of course we pray for godly representation in all aspects of governance... yet that is not our only or even our primary battleground-"

Also we cant complain when Christians have roles in governance who are doing the right things,we should be praying for them .
The heading of the post put another way is "should we forgo participation in all avenues?"
and the answer in my opinion is, no we should not forgo participation in all avenues.

urs staff

Abortion is less of a problem and more of a symptom of fatherless (unmarried) homes.... this is a spiritual issue more than a legal one and that’s where our weapons are most effective:)

In the grand scheme of things, our attention and focus should be primarily the spiritual (behind the scenes) battle.

I agree our war is spiritual not against flesh and blood. I have no problem with the Church praying against abortion. Or a group from the Church standing infront of abortion clinics with verses.

Which is not to say we forgo participation in every avenue the Lord grants us opportunity, including the social, cultural, judicial and political spheres tho we can and should influence them from a primarily spiritual disposition. If we seek the Lord for light on how and when to do so, He will give it

This is where I disagree. If we fight using politics as a weapon then our weapon is no longer spiritual. If we fight to introduce laws against unconverted then we are fighting against flesh and blood not against spiritual.

Bible does not tell us to have our primary focus on spiritual fight and secondary focus against flesh and blood. Our fight is ONLY against spiritual forces. We do not fight against flesh and blood at all. Bible is so clear here (EPh 6:12).

Also Bible does not say use spiritual weapons primarily and also fleshly weapon (politics) as secondary weapon! Our weapons are only spiritual (2 Cor 10:4).

My primary point in this thread is the Church has failed in spiritual fight and has no spiritual weapons. Hence it is trying to fight against flesh and blood (abortion laws) using carnal weapons (Politics and political support). There is no partnership between light and darkness. I do not see Jesus or the Apostles doing anything with politics to advance God's kingdom or bring his will on this earth. It is because they did not fight with flesh and blood nor had carnal weapons.

Do you think Christians should avoid seeking political offices or appointments?
Also if a politician comes to faith in Christ while occupying office, are you suggesting they should recuse themselves and seek employment outside the political arena?

"I do not see Jesus or the Apostles doing anything with politics to advance God's kingdom or bring his will on this earth."

Then again...there was no vote, no constitution, or any other governing documents as we have. They didn't live in America in the 21st century, nor did they have a history of 250 years as we do of the freedom of worship and of speech.

When your worldview limits God to certain spheres in His world and created order you tend to leave significant life decisions to the society or the culture to dominate and manage. BAD THEOLOGY!

"This is my Father's world"
https://youtu.be/Kyg9qqiiMXw

Do you think Christians should avoid seeking political offices or appointments?
Also if a politician comes to faith in Christ while occupying office, are you suggesting they should recuse themselves and seek employment outside the political arena?

I do not find any connection between your question and our point of discussion. In new covenant each one can decide whether they can be a good Christian following a profession of their choice. I work in computers, but if I cannot keep my internet usage clean then it is better for me to quit my job. Every profession is equally dangerous.

Even if there can be a strong Christian in politics it does not mean we as Christians can put our trust in politics to fight against evil. It is like saying there can be God fearing judge so let me take my brother to court! We know the scripture says not to take a brother to court instead trust the Church to solve the disputes.

Then again...there was no vote, no constitution, or any other governing documents as we have. They didn't live in America in the 21st century, nor did they have a history of 250 years as we do of the freedom of worship and of speech.

When your worldview limits God to certain spheres in His world and created order you tend to leave significant life decisions to the society or the culture to dominate and manage. BAD THEOLOGY!

I assume you have a genuine question. Instead of judging my theology, if you have asked a question like how Fetcher is doing here then we can have meaningful discussion. Acting smart and jumping ahead of a discussion will not result in fruitful discussion.

Agreed, Jesus nor the apostles lived under democracy. But if you see under Old Covenant, the Godly judges and kings tried to save Israel from its captivity. But Jesus nor the Apostles did anything to free Israel from Romans. Nor did Jesus preach anything to rebel against the Roman oppression. He clearly distanced himself from the political situation of Israel. Even when a leader of Pharisee came to see him, he did not try to use him to influence some reformation in the Pharisees. Instead he clearly asked him to be born again (John 3).

I have said so many times that I am not against Christians voting or having political views. But putting our trust in politicians and political parties to bring some laws in our nation, using it as a weapon to bring some imaginary heavenly kingdom etc. are not Biblical.

In response to the original question;

It is good and right that we should say when something is wrong.
It is good and right to stand against injustice.
It is good and right to advocate for the innocent.
We should whole-heartedly disagree with what we see is wrong in our government and society, and whole-heartedly agree with what is good.

But the word of caution in this is that we must watch our mouths when it comes to cursing men who are made in the image of God.

I wrote;
Do you think Christians should avoid seeking political offices or appointments?
Also if a politician comes to faith in Christ while occupying office, are you suggesting they should recuse themselves and seek employment outside the political arena?

Sree wrote;

I do not find any connection between your question and our point of discussion.

Sree also wrote;

This is where I disagree. If we fight using politics as a weapon then our weapon is no longer spiritual. If we fight to introduce laws against unconverted then we are fighting against flesh and blood not against spiritual.

This ☝🏼statement is why I asked that question ...
now can you see how it’s connected to not only this discussion but your voluntary statements....

Much like in the other thread we were discussing, you tend to make suggestive remarks and when pressed about them you sometimes defer or just ignore it entirely... that’s your prerogative but in all honesty, if not changed, it will over time weaken your credibility-

This ☝🏼statement is why I asked that question ...

I understood why you asked it. I still do not find a connection. I clearly explained why there is no connection. A Christian can be in any profession as long as his conscience is pure. So politics is also one of them. But our discussion is about Christianity as an entity,whether it can use politics to control the civil law. I do not find any connection. Our discussion is NOT about individual being a politician or not.

I clearly explained in my pervious post why there is no connection in the point that you are trying to derive. I also explained my answer to your question. I never evaded from any question. You chose not to quote the part where I explained my answer. Selectively quoting someone also can affect your credibility.

1First of all, therefore, I exhort entreaties, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings, to be made on behalf of all men 2for kings and all those being in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth........Paul is teaching here that the quiet and peaceful life that he desires comes through prayer towards those who are in or play a part in ruling and law-making, he is saying gods desires all types of men in all areas of life to be saved, because of the evil that controls the world it is imposable to led a peaceful life with full persecution, but when a king is saved, Christians living under his rule will become blessed and more free to witness the gospel and do the normal things that we want to do, like buy and sell and trade and work, he never desired persecution for the church, but excepted it and treated as chastisement refine meant when it comes we have examples in the bible .................. Cyrus king of Persia, is one

I understand where you are coming from and although I see it differently, there is no point in arguing over it -
As far as selectively quoting you, it was not intentional as I quoted the portion relevant to the point I was hoping you might see from my perspective,... again no worries on my end as we agree on far more than we disagree on and so in the spirit of unity, I will leave it at that :)

Bless you, brother, i don't like and want anything to do with politics my self it always creates argument with nearly everyone i have spoken to about it , ill still pray that they get saved.....

If you want a world without strong debates, you want a world without strong people. - Anon E. Mouse

better of quoting scripture, savanna most debates,are just flesh against flesh , what is debate is it biblical how do we define what we are doing ..........a formal discussion on a particular matter in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward and which usually ends with a vote:
"last night's debate on the Education Bill"
verb

1.
argue about (a subject), especially in a formal manner:
"MPs debated the issue in the Commons"
synonyms
discuss, confer about, talk over, talk through, talk about, exchange views on, exchange views about, thrash out, argue, argue about, argue the pros and cons of, dispute, wrangle over, bandy words concerning, contend over, contest, controvert, moot, informal:kick about, kick around, bat about, bat around, archaic:altercate ..............9But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the law, because these things are pointless and worthless. 10Reject a divisive man after a first and second admonition,…

Gary...are you dee-baiting with me? 😉

lol hope not brother ..

Love in action...fighting the good fight...

https://youtu.be/xoDb_5YIelA