Relevant and hard hitting videos regarding the recent election and the modern prophetic movement

I don't do this often. Yet recenty, I have come across two videos by a Jeremiah Johnson. He publically predicted former President Trump would be elected to another term and the morning after the election, Johnson posted a letter of explanation and apology for getting it wrong. He has caught much grief for doing so and continues to do so.

He has offered two videos on the matter - "I was Wrong" part 1 and part 2. They are repentant and hard hitting at the same time as he addresses his own mistakes and out of bounds non scriptural trends he sees in the contemporary prophetic movement. And he deals with motives and the attitude of many hearts today. It's the sanest and most objective comments I have seen so far on the recent election and the prophetic controversy that accompanied it. I already recommended part 1 but want to especially recommend part 2 also. They can be found on youtube - just type in "Jeremiah Johnson I was Wrong." Both are a little over 35 minutes each. You are not obligated to agree with all but I believe there is a lot in them worthy of consideration at this critical juncture in the church's history.

Bless y'all.

Brother David,
Admittedly I’m only half way through the 2nd video but several things have given me pause, while other mentionings sound correct but will require further investigation-

I do have a question for you about JJ’s assessment of NT prophets...
without quoting him/his position here as I’m sure you’re familiar, Paul says in Ephesians 2:20 that the church was build on the foundation of apostles and prophets and not that the church has any authority over them to select or appoint a prophet or apostle, that was up to God Himself ... what say you?

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Not submitted in an argumentative spirit but a simple inquiry 🙏🏻

Hi Docs,
I will look at the second video and see if their is anything new.
However he needed to bring forth fruits in line with repentance and he did not.He needed to stand down from ministry but he would not.The problem with Johnson is that he has lost all his credibility.

My position is exactly as it was before the 20th and the 6th and the 14th,I believe this is not over and Christians who look through the lens of persecution for better or worse will view this differently than those who do not look through that lens.
I believe this is not over for a few reasons
a.It would involve God doing a 180 degree turnaround on what he was doing in the world with Brexit and 2016 elections.This move is totally illogical.
b.I have had dreams personally myself that I am saying are from the Lord including one from earlier this evening.
c It is clear as day to me what happened in the election and what is going on as we speak has an AntiChrist Spirit behind it that God wont allow to have power before its time.

urs staff

Hi Staff,

Momentum shift may seem illogical, but our Lord’s ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.

Abraham waiting 25 years to have Isaac did not seem logical since his body was as good as dead and Sarah’s womb was also dead.

Having the Israelites turn back and appear lost did not appear logical at the time, but it did draw out the Egyptian forces.

Joseph ending up Potiphar’s slave and Pharaoh’s prisoner would not have seemed logical at the time.

David being chased around the wilderness by Saul after being anointed king and his early successes. This did not seem logical. Also, less than two weeks from the ransacking of Zicklag, David was king of Judah and Benjamin. Wonderfully true, but not very logical.

If you have received divine insight into the coming days, I do not believe brothers will be disappointed that you stood faithful.

May the Lord do what is in His heart for the church here in the US however logical or illogical it may seem to our understanding.

Mak

JFW,

Thank you for your inquiry and attitude.

/I do have a question for you about JJ’s assessment of NT prophets...
without quoting him/his position here as I’m sure you’re familiar, Paul says in Ephesians 2:20 that the church was build on the foundation of apostles and prophets and not that the church has any authority over them to select or appoint a prophet or apostle, that was up to God Himself ... what say you?/

I would definitely say that the church has no authority to select who is a prophet. Far be it from the church to think it can do that. That is God's sovereign choice.

I do believe though that prophetic ministers should be recognized and come to maturity and fruition within the body of Christ in a local assembly. I don't believe NT prophets have the okay to just wander about on their own in the body of Christ giving words here and there with no judging or accountability to anyone taking place. Far be from the church to do that, but that seems to be what has happened in many cases. If one feels they have a word from God then one should not fear having it judged. This is not common practice in today's church.

I've also been of the somewhat firm belief for a while that just because someone may be able to prophesy etc. that that may not necessarily mean he has the OFFICE of a prophet. They may just be someone who can operate on the gift of prophecy, words of knowledge etc. These are my opinions and may not be everyone's opinion. I realize that.

/Not submitted in an argumentative spirit but a simple inquiry 🙏🏻/

Amen!

Hi Greg,
A few points,
If Paul and Peter were around today they would probably use everything they could to bring the gospel to people including youtube.
Just because people listen to youtube which includes many many SI videos( by the way) doesnt automatically mean they are not listening to local believers in the body of Christ or that they are not listening to God personally.Its not a one or the other situation.Neither does it mean they have left the word of God or are not listening to the Holy Spirit as you are suggesting.
Another point is that we have many ,many more Christians in the world today than we had in the first century so we are going to have mulitiple more giftings and ministries which like SermonIndex and Timesquare Church will find themselves on Youtube.
My guess is that its not the fact that Christians ministries are on youtube that is a bother to you but rather what the type the ministries are,
urs staff

Good word, Greg!

Be careful on who to follow, the nation and churches are divided. There are extreme ideas, remember what happened to soviet union or what was before the union, people seeking relief and haven from oppression on one hand and other sorts of people on the other hand.

The new testament is full of encouragent and warnings on how to live in trying times. Now, I believe sermonindex should not be a forum to wild ideas but to be an instrument of God for guidance and exhortations among believers.

/Hi Docs,
I will look at the second video and see if their is anything new.
However he needed to bring forth fruits in line with repentance and he did not. He needed to stand down from ministry but he would not. The problem with Johnson is that he has lost all his credibility./

Then why are you still following and clinging to the words of prophets who very obviously missed their predictions and have lost credibility and haven't repented and stood down from ministry and continue going about business as usual. It seems you are criticizing others while doing the very thing you are criticizing them for. That is lost credibility.

Hi Docs,

I think ive explained myself very clearly to you.
I have not predicted anything but have explained my position based on three things but I will repeat it once more just for you.
1 Its not in line with what God has been doing in the 2016 elections and brexit
2 God has shown me things personally
3 It is clear as the blue sky in summertime that their is an AntiChrist Spirit behind this election which I dont believe at this juncture of history God is going to allow this Spirit to win this battle.

I have not apologized for my position unlike Johnson who clearly didnt hear from God,its very hard to make a mistake like that.I have no credibility issue as I viewed 6th the 20th and dec 14th as man made deadlines just as Jesus viewed Lazarus's death and Funeral as a man made deadline.

Their are only 3 credible postions for those that made prophesies
1 I am stepping down from my ministry because.....
2 I got the timeline wrong and but I still think Donald Trump will be the 46th president
3 I didnt go by the man made timeline at all and I am sticking to what I said all along .

Johnson doesnt fit into any of those categories and has lost his credibility
urs staff

Hi Passerby,
The gospel is completely a wild idea itself but it turns out to be true.
The new testament never says to lie down and be buried by tyranny brought about through an AntiChrist spirit.
Their are times of great persecution and their are times like Billy Graham had where their relatively no persecution.Living through trying times doesnt mean stop telling the truth,never does it say that,
urs staff

staff,

Just what has been God been doing with the 2016 election and Brexit?

Also, what has God told you, personally?

Thanks,

Nate

Greg,

You are asking why people will look at these videos.

Some of us are very much aware of what will likely happen if the pro-death politicians win this recent election. But we do not want it to happen. I am very much aware how communists took over Russia and other countries. I have read Richard Wurmbrand's books and newsletter; Corrie ten Boom wrote about the atrocities inflicted upon Europe so one looks to see if our fears are justified or not but still sense they have good reason to exist. I, for one, believed that if these prophets are false it will not happen as they said it would which on one hand does not surprise me.

We are living in trying times. False prophets/teachers are being exposed everywhere. How we handle gov mandates as a brotherhood is a harbinger of things to come, I think. Will we be united or divided?

Mothers with young children are very concerned....and I feel for them. I told one young mom that all she can do is to teach her children how to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit...and this applies to all Believers.

Sandra

not you staff, it is much wilder than i have read here at si. yes we must not belittle what God can do, as those proud empires and nations did.

our enemy is a roaring lion.

Having read the comments on JJ and the disagreement on who we should be giving heed to, it would be wisdom first of all to take the Word of God as our main source of guidance. The Holy Spirit has come to lead us into all truth, so we should have such an abiding fellowship with the Lord Jesus that we are listening to what He is saying.

The ministry of the prophet is a valid ministry, and has been given to build up the Church, so believers should do the work of the ministry.

Every true prophet will say only what He hears the Lord saying.

The prophetic gift will bring edification, exhortation, and comfort, but also there will be clear warnings to the Church, and there will also be prophetic words of those things that grieve the Spirit of God. I will not give much attention to a so called prophet that speak only pleasant words.

Staff, All Christians that live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. Jesus said that a servant would be as His master. "If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you.” There is much persecution all over the world. Why do most Christians in America think that we are exempt?

Hi Havok,
The 2016 and brexit God is heading in the direction opposite of globalism and one world government until he has achieved what he wants to achieve.I wont linger on this as the second bit is long.

Personally,
I had a serious of dreams which I am definitely saying are from the Lord to be clear.Ive had many dreams from God over the years.
1
.After the election I saw Joe Biden going through the doors of the white house which I believe are the doors from the Rose Garden.He got to the threshold and went in and I said to myself in the dream "thats it then maybe he does get in"
I have to be honest its the last thing I wanted to hear.
2
In the next dream I was looking at a political chamber which I think is the congress after looking at the pictures.Prof Helmut Norpoth from the Primary model who is a Pollster and predicted Trump to win walked in and took authority over the politicians in it.They shouted and roared at him but it was clear he was had authority and he just smiled.In the dream I said "thats Norpoth hes from the primary model but he cant be in charge because hes just a pollister so it must be someone like Norpoth".I learned a few days after that Christopher Miller the acting secretary of defence look very similar but thats just my opinion..
I then heard a voice say "whats sauce for the goose,is sauce for the gander"
3
I had a serious of dreams about these dates in or around the 20th november. These dates are 13/2 14/3 and 15/4.The first dream about the 13 of feb was so faint ,so dim I woke up and said did I just have a dream about the 13/2.
I waited for the 20 days or so to see what was going to happen on the 13th and low and behold the impeachment vote happened and Trump was acquited.
The 15th of April is my birthday but in the dream it was my mothers birthday.This is the only dream where I think I have an intrepretation.Mother or The pastors wife in a dream from God usually means "THE Church".So the Churches Birthday is on the 15th of April is the meaning.Whether thats my local Church or something bigger I dont know.Funnily enough the Pastors wife's real birthday is actually the 15th of april as well.
4
This evening I fell fast asleep and dreamed the following which is very pictorial and hard to explain.
I saw a round coffee Tin and the lid was off,it was full of dark granular coffee.I saw what looked like a piece of hard paper or light cardboard rolled up like a tube and going down through the middle of the coffee ,it then expanded out and through some shaking it came to rest around the whole inside of the tin with all the coffee now inside it.
I then heard God say "I am as big as I have always been and I have inserted myself in".
I clearly understood that God was the paper insert and that he had positioned himself around all the evil.I also clearly understood that the paper insert looked small at first but then it expanded surrounded all the coffee.
Why I say evil is that in another portion of the dream I could see that the contents of the tin were sin an all sorts of evil carry on too disgusting too mention.
I immediately woke and understood this is about whats going on at the moment.God was saying nobody noticed but I have inserted myself in.

So I am confident enough to say that "This is not over" ,I dont know Gods plans or his timing other than what he gave me.I cant say for sure that Joe Biden wont be President for the four years or that Donald Trump will be restored to be president for the remainder of the term as other people have said.
If you ask me whats my opinion rather than intrepretation I would have to say their will be investigations perhaps a public prosecutor and the election will be overturned and then the show of Gods power and Justice in such a tangible way will fuel a great revival,
Thats my opinion rather than intrepretation but I have no doubt this is not over and God has inserted himself in,
urs staff

Hi Abideinhim,
I am not saying that Christians wont be persecuted.Its clear even now that throughout the world their is persecution onto death.
But their are clearly times of great persecution like Corrie Ten Boon and times where their was little persecution like Billy Graham and he lived a godly life in Christ.
I have complained about always looking through the lens of persecution and believing if it doesnt come then it isnt true Christianity.I have complained about how pre trib believers are misrepresented on SI.All pre trib believers I personally know understand about persecution and that we could come under persecution like other Christians have around the world.Just because we believe that we will be raptured doesnt mean we dont understand persecution.
Paul had times where he preached freely and without hindrance and then he had times of persecution.He didnt long for it to come though but saw the good it produced when it did come,urs staff

I know a number of people who have been telling me about their nightmarish dreams. Each and every one of them have been so disturbed by these nightmarish dreams that their daily lives have been affected in one way or another and to some degree or other.

These nightmarish dreams that each of these persons are having have to do with the political atmosphere and world events.

Also worth mentioning is the fact that all of these persons are christians.

Another thing worth mentioning is that they see and hear news reports daily on the current events in our nation and the world.

I asked if they'd consider fasting and praying. The fast I had in mind was in regard to their daily diet of the news and the current events in our nation and in the world.

They all agreed. They spent all the time in fellowship with God through His Word and prayer, in the place of the time they'd been spending seeing and hearing news.

An amazing thing occurred. After just 2 days, all of their nightmarish politically charged dreams ceased.
They all slept soundly and had sweet dreams. To this day they're experiencing God's peace and are focused on doing justice, loving mercy and walking humbly with their Lord. They are praying for family and friends more, helping those in need, evangelizing the lost, and growing in the grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus. All this with the joy of the Lord in their step. They've got a thankful and giving heart, and are an inspiration and an encouragement to all around them.

It may be that some others are also having dreams due to these factors.

Just saying...🙂

Hi Savannah,

The reason people are having dreams from God is because the word of God says thats what would happen.Some Christians who are afraid of the supernatural usually hate the Acts 2 scripture and look for a way to look pass them.So many big things happened regarding dreams and visions in both the New and the Old Testaments.I can only say that I dreamt on or around the 3 week in Nov that the 13 of feb would have some faint significance and it did Trump was acquitted from the sham impeachment.Even on the 12th it looked like their would be no vote on the 13th.

ACTS 2
"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

I would wonder why other people are not dreaming or having visions?? as it says I will pour out my spirit on all people etc.

Nightmares and the like are not what we are talking about here.They are just normal dreams not the edifying dreams like you get from the Lord.

urs staff

Thank you for reasoning with me🙏🏻
It is itself a blessing to share the spirit of unity even (and especially) when we may approach it with different points in focus. Often times the definitions we ascribe to certain terms are influenced by our own experience and expectations and as things become more generalized they become more abstract, convoluted and apt to misunderstanding, so to that end I am grateful for your making distinction between the office and the gift and we agree on more than not.

You write;
/ I do believe though that prophetic ministers should be recognized and come to maturity and fruition within the body of Christ in a local assembly. I don't believe NT prophets have the okay to just wander about on their own in the body of Christ giving words here and there with no judging or accountability to anyone taking place./

Yes but ;)
We have to be careful about making this a "law” within the body at large, wether literal or implied by an unspoken compliance.
Often times when we miss, we attempt to fix it by gaining control yet that only serves to further entangle us, as we now are playing God by essentially taking His role as Head of the body.
No one is above the head and as such we the body should not be attempting to "steady the ark” with internal regulatory agencies in an effort to control the head...
We should yield individually and corporately to the head and allow the foundations of the church to be active and by that I mean to say stop resisting the reality of the 5 fold ministry and it’s essential role in the will of God .

A good example of this is brother Art Katz,... his conversion and baptism in the spirit took place far beyond the reach of elders, deacons, church boards, denominational jurisdictions and superintendents,... outsider their control, God was faithful to complete a transaction between someone who did know Him on behalf of one who did not yet know Him. Some people gave what they had to a willing heart, and what they had was Christ ✝️
The Lord, as you know, used Art as a sort of traveling prophet,...who by invitation often gave a word of correction to the body ;)

So while I agree community between the "two movements” should have order, that order should come from the Lord not the church.

(For me) the five fold is the military operation in the spiritual war we were born into. The elders, deacons, pastors are administrative operations within the local bodies as well as corporately. These two are over and against one another always vying for the power that comes from a following of men .... what we should be doing is competing in our following the Lord, keeping the closest step with Him, that is our race, no? Then He is the head of His body.

Edit to add ; the great commission is to go into the world and preach the gospel, we somehow have turned that into go into the church and preach the gospel over and over to the same people 🤷🏽”â™‚️
Apostles and Prophets are instrumental as they are the foundation of the administration, without them in place you don’t have a living church without a living foundation. So while obviously there are tricksters and charlatans (there always will be) we have no concern for that for we have the mind of Christ and the light of His presence to see and know who is or is not from Him 😇
He can’t deny Himself and the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ ~

"An amazing thing occurred. After just 2 days, all of their nightmarish politically charged dreams ceased.
They all slept soundly and had sweet dreams. ”

Amen Sister!

God does indeed Give dreams, but why would Christians spend hours getting news from a news media that is under the control of the powers of darkness?

When I learned to turn off the boob tube, the anger and strife was replaced with the peace of God.

We are to set our minds on the things that are above. The fiery darts of the enemy cannot hit the believer whose life is hid in Christ, and who puts on the whole armor of God. We are more than conquerors Through Him that loved us.

I've been reading through this thread tonight which gave me pause to consider what I've been reading.

There were several topics on SermonIndex between November and now regarding the various people who gave public "prophetic" utterances regarding the election. Many of those "prophetic" words predicted an outcome that never came to pass.

Before and after the election, many people sent me video links to those "words." Yet, I never watched a single one of them. I was certainly interested in watching them. I was certainly interested in knowing what other people thought of them too. However, I couldn't bring myself to watch even one of them.

Oddly enough, I voted for President Trump. I wanted him to win the election. This was primarily for reasons of policy. After all, my faith was not in President Trump.

Despite the fact that I voted for him and wanted him to serve another four years (and wanting the party of abortion, LGBTQ, pro-China, anti-faith, anti-Israel, etc. to lose), I realize the futility of trusting in men or even institutions. In fact, it would be futile to trust in the words of any men -- including "men of God." Our faith should ONLY be in Christ alone.

Still, I wanted for President Trump to be reelected. In fact, I have performed post-election statistical analysis and I'm quite convinced that there was widespread fraud that happened in the election. The math just doesn't make any sense and defies every election norm.

Yet, even in all the confusion and likely fraud, it is interesting to note that God allowed all of this to happen. This happened despite the "prophetic" words uttered prior to (and even after) the election. Does this make those individuals "false prophets," "charlatans" or just people who "got it wrong?"

Recently, my wife and I read through the first five books of the Bible during our morning devotions. In fact, we just finished the Book of Joshua today.

One name popped out several times throughout our reading: Balaam the son of Beor.

From the time that "Balaam" is first mentioned in Numbers chapter 22, his name is referenced fairly often in the Bible. In fact, his name appears 66 times. He is referenced in ten different passages after his story was told in Numbers 22-24.

When you read his story in those initial chapters, it is difficult to make out just what his sin was. He was solicited by Balak, the king of Moab. Balak knew that Moses and the Israelites were rapidly approaching the land that was promised to Abraham. He knew that God was with them.

It was Balak's desire that Balaam -- known for his "gift" -- would curse Israel. Yet, each time that Balaam spoke, the words that he spoke blessed Israel. Balak was frustrated by this turn of events. Eventually, he returned to his homeland.

It isn't until later in the Bible that we understand what this great "error of Balaam" actually was.

We discover through other references to Balaam that he was something of a "prophet for hire." He was recognized as a "soothsayer" with a gift of "divination." He was solicited by Balak to utter a curse.

In Numbers 24, it states that God spoke to Balaam (and vice versa). God warned Balaam not to go with the men sent by Balak. The men from Balak pressed him to go with them and curse Israel. Yet, Balak replied, "If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more" (Numbers 22:18).

So far, this almost seems commendable.

Eventually, Balaam consulted the Lord yet again and the Lord permitted him to go with those men -- but told Balaam to only utter what He (the Lord) told him. Yet, the Lord was angry that Balaam was going (Numbers 22:22). Later, we read that Balaam uttered the blessings over Israel (to Balak's dismay).

It isn't until later that we discover that all of these "words" that were blessings were inconsequential to the evil of Balaam's error.

We learn in Numbers 31 that Balaam was actually responsible for the sexual promiscuity that came after Israel was tempted by foreign women (and the subsequent plague). Apparently, Balak realized that God wasn't going to curse Israel through Balaam's mouth, but that he could entice Israel to curse themselves through immorality.

Consider the following verses about Balaam:

"Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD."
- Numbers 31:16

"Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee. Nevertheless the LORD thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the LORD thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the LORD thy God loved thee."
- Deuteronomy 23:4-5

"Then Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, arose and warred against Israel, and sent and called Balaam the son of Beor to curse you: But I would not hearken unto Balaam; therefore he blessed you still: so I delivered you out of his hand."
- Joshua 24:9-10

"Because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them: howbeit our God turned the curse into a blessing."
- Nehemiah 13:2

"Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness...."
- II Peter 2:15

"Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core."
- Jude 1:11

"But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication."
- Revelation 2:14

While Balaam only BLESSED the people of Israel, he was still a "prophet" for hire. He did speak with God. God did speak to him. God put words -- blessings -- in his mouth. Yet, this great error was that he was never supposed to go to King Balak in the first place.

The "prophets" who uttered words about the election that didn't come to pass didn't get paid to do so. However, they did receive something for their "words." They received fame and reputation.

This is the greatest wrong that I see in those individuals who "prophesized" things. In addition to being wrong and bearing false witness against God (who they claim sanctioned their words), they gained a famous reputation from their attempts to tell people the future.

We don't know if these would-be prophets "taught" the ungodly people of this world anything, but the words themselves did become a stumbling block for many. They believed the words of men when the Word of God was available at all times.

We should NEVER trust in men.
We should ONLY trust -- with real faith -- in the Word of God.

Paul wrote in Galatians, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8). I'm not saying that we should consider those "prophets" as being "accursed." However, I do think that this passage is explicit in how we should not buy stock in the words of men (or of angels). The Word of God is the ultimate authority.

As such, the Bible isn't particularly clear about current events (at least in terms of specifics). The names "Trump" and "Biden" never appear in Scripture. The Word of God does, however, teach us to place our faith and hope in God.

God is in control -- no matter what. The Word of God makes this abundantly clear. Sadly, the "words" spoken by others might create a distraction from this.

Hi Abideinhim,
I suppose God doesnt heal people these days either or deliver people from demons or any of that supernatural stuff as well as not giving dreams and visions.

Maybe you can rule out all the other scripture too as well as ACTS 2 17 .What else do you want to take out and ignore as the word of God??

Carter Conlon and all of SI Videos and many other Christian ministries are on Youtube and they are not under the power of Darkness.Paul and Peter would definitely used youtube if they had that tool in their day,
urs staff

Hi Chriss,
From my point of view no Christian Trump supporters i have interacted with put their faith in Donald Trump or any man but they recognised and discerned the spirit of Antichrist behind Joe Biden and the Democratic Party and they recognised that God clearly put Trump in office which was a mircale on the eve of the 2016 election.
Their are many reasons why people Prophesied a Trump win and didnt come to pass YET!
Unfortunately you didnt differentiate these and threw everything that you saw only with ur natural eyes into one lump.
1 False prophets trying to exploit as usual
2 Christians who prophesied and looked at everything from mans timeline
3 Christians who are still saying that the election results will be overturned and Donald Trump will be President this term
4 Christians who think God is not finished with the election fraud and the Anti Christ Spirit behind the election and has something planned for his glory.I put myself in this category.

Remember Chriss through the human point of view of Martha and Mary Lazarus was dead and buried and that was that but through Jesus's point of view his death was for the glory of God.So what I am saying Chriss is you are putting ur trust in Man yourself ,the man your putting trust in is your own natural view which looks at the news(like all of us) and decided that God is finished with the elections etc before Jesus has had his say,
To everyone else,
Cant we at least wait for Jesus to come to the funeral before we decide that this thing is over and done ?

urs staff

/Yes but ;)
We have to be careful about making this a "law” within the body at large, wether literal or implied by an unspoken compliance.
Often times when we miss, we attempt to fix it by gaining control yet that only serves to further entangle us, as we now are playing God by essentially taking His role as Head of the body.
No one is above the head and as such we the body should not be attempting to "steady the ark” with internal regulatory agencies in an effort to control the head...
We should yield individually and corporately to the head and allow the foundations of the church to be active and by that I mean to say stop resisting the reality of the 5 fold ministry and it’s essential role in the will of God./

I don't believe trying to fix is an attempt to gain control or trying to play God. Far from it. It's been my experience that many have used that as an excuse - "Who are you to play God and try and correct me? I answer only to God." That's true in the ultimate sense, in that we in the end are going to stand before God and not man, yet God has placed ministries within a body full of men. They go together in my view. I don't believe steadying the ark with "internal regulatory agencies" is the right term or concept to use in this matter. The local church and its leaders are charged with doing such. I don't see the term as correct in what I am trying to get at. I'm trying to word this reply correctly and aren't sure I am succeeding. At any rate, I'm not picking at anyone or you. I pray it doesn't come across as fighting words.

/A good example of this is brother Art Katz,... his conversion and baptism in the spirit took place far beyond the reach of elders, deacons, church boards, denominational jurisdictions and superintendents,... outsider their control, God was faithful to complete a transaction between someone who did know Him on behalf of one who did not yet know Him. Some people gave what they had to a willing heart, and what they had was Christ ✝️
The Lord, as you know, used Art as a sort of traveling prophet,...who by invitation often gave a word of correction to the body ;)/

I've never shared this before because it didn't seem necessary and I was probably a bit afraid to share it for fear of how it might look. But I live about 23 miles from where Brother Art is buried and I go to home group and Sunday church with people who used to be part of and reside at the Ben Israel community Brother Art founded. That's not in any way to sound any trumpet or whatever before me, just to let you know. So I am well acquainted with Brother Art and his ministry. I'm still sure that the Lord led me from Florida to this part of Minnesota. My association with these brethren has been a intricate part of my stay here. That's all on that.

If I remember correctly, Art did come into the faith in the way you describe. A lot of us did. However, Art eventually became a part of a local body and held himself accountable and under mutual oversight. At the Ben Israel community, he was submitted to other ruling elders and opened himself to their input and even correction if need be. Art was sort of a wandering prophet as you say (he said he was God's utility man willing to do whatever needed doing) but he never travelled as a lone minister unconnected to anyone anywhere. His community of fellow believers and elders always knew where he was going next, prayed with him about it, and laid hands on him and sent him when he travelled in the States and abroad.

If you remember, it was Art who said regarding the prophetic movement I think it was that a long history and time of no mutual submission, oversight, and correction was a major reason why the church and this "movement" had gotten us to the sorry state it had come to. And it has even gone on during the years since Art passed and now look what is upon us.

As an aside, one thing I noticed about Jeremiah Johnson and that reminded me of Art to a degree was JJ was not just talking about events or things or trends or whatever. He also spoke about the motives and intentions of the heart in a way like Art used to. To me, I have always considered that as part of the prophetic ministry. It unveils the heart and brings correction in our inner man and what motivates us to do what we do. I believe the prophetic ministry involves more than just predicting future events, it also involves speaking to the inner life of the church.

/(For me) the five fold is the military operation in the spiritual war we were born into. The elders, deacons, pastors are administrative operations within the local bodies as well as corporately. These two are over and against one another always vying for the power that comes from a following of men .... what we should be doing is competing in our following the Lord, keeping the closest step with Him, that is our race, no? Then He is the head of His body./

Those are good words in my opinion. I can receive them.

/Edit to add ; the great commission is to go into the world and preach the gospel, we somehow have turned that into go into the church and preach the gospel over and over to the same people 🤷🏽”â™‚️/

We were discussing this last night in our home group. It causes a bit of pain within me as I consider a day when I always looked for people to witness to outside of the church. Maybe this time or this era of "reset" for the church will cause some of us to get back to that.

/Apostles and Prophets are instrumental as they are the foundation of the administration, without them in place you don’t have a living church without a living foundation. So while obviously there are tricksters and charlatans (there always will be) we have no concern for that for we have the mind of Christ and the light of His presence to see and know who is or is not from Him 😇/

Apostles and prophets are surely foundational but accountability and willingness to let others judge prophetic words is essential also. It can be done in a balanced and scriptural way I believe that doesn't over steady the ark. In my opinion, the prophetic fiasco surrounding this election and the disappointment and confusion it has brought is a good indication that little accountablility has been taking place.

Good bro, I hope and pray I have answered you in a non combative way. We agree on a bunch. I know that. I hear what you are saying and if we disagree here and there I don't consider us to be fighting. We are just talking and I didn't drop any big names as a way to bring attention to myself in any way. It wouldn't work anyway if I did.

Keep talking at me. I have enjoyed it. I hope I haven't been overly long.

Blessings.

Staff,

You got your 4 days. Now brother, you are demanding an indeterminate amount of time. Is this not wrong?

The nature of prophecy in the Bible has never been so degraded, so vague, or so ridiculous as that which I see here in our day. If these men who claim to be prophets had such hard-to-interpret/hard-to-get-right prophesies, dreams, etc in the OT days they would have been stoned to death (assuming a godly populace). Many "prophets" today have the luxury of living under a system in which they won't be stoned to death (much like the false prophets who wreaked havoc on Israel). They can be slick with their words (avoiding saying anything specific at all) and can pretend to apologize in order to recover their following.

Frankly, as a man who believes that God does indeed display His power, that God does indeed work through His people, and that God does indeed work in the world today, I am calling this baloney. These men have all the hallmarks of false prophets. They are liars. The are deceivers. They are spots in our love feasts.

I don't say that lightly. There has bene so much biblical evidence from godly people on this forum about these men that show their errors! Even from people who have no problem whatsoever with prophesy, and yet, we continue to make an issue over this.

The Lord is handing our nation over to what it wants--wickedness. He might not show up to the funeral, but He will show up as the executioner at the gallows!

The only hope we have is the Gospel, men. The only hope we have is Christ and Him crucified. The loss of Trump (which I thoroughly believe was an illegitimate loss) is not God testing us. Our obedience to the Word of God in light of the difficulties we are facing now is the test. I see more wrangling over words, more brewing of civil war, and more hatred for others now than I have ever seen in my entire life--and that among believers! It reminds me of the words of Jesus "the love of many will grow cold."

Let us obey, humbly, the Word of God. Let us love one another as Christ has loved us. Let us meet together, seek the Lord together, and commit ourselves to spreading the Gospel everywhere we can!

This idea that Trump will still be President at some point is not from God.

For every person who has had a dream or a word I say
follow the NT. Bring it to your church. Have it tested against the scriptures. Have it tested against the multitude of counselors as installed in that local church. If it is rejected, submit to that judgment in silence. If you are still convinced of the rightness of what you say was given from God, He will be faithful and patient while you seek Him for understanding. Ask Him "Is this something that I received from You and if so, given that I am submitting to the judgment of Your local body that I’m incorrect, I will wait from clear explicit and instruction from You before I utter a word of it publicly and then only in the time, place and audience of Your instruction.”

Hi Havok,
The 4 days are not up ,this has not played out yet.
You asked and now you cant accept the answer.
I wont get boxed in to your timeline and will go with Gods Timeline.Jesus didnt get boxed in by Martha or Marys unbelief and I wont get boxed in by it either.

I said my piece on False Prophets and have said that Jeremiah Johnson should step down at the start of the post.

Your post hasnt been humble and shows no love to one another as Christ loved us.What gospel are you spreading ?"The gospel of persecution" or the gospel of grace?

Your Qoute
"Let us obey, humbly, the Word of God. Let us love one another as Christ has loved us. Let us meet together, seek the Lord together, and commit ourselves to spreading the Gospel everywhere we can!"

urs staff

Hi staff,

I think that you misunderstood my post. I didn't mention the specificities of those "prophets" at all (other than those who said that Trump would be reelected specifically in November).

Rather, my post was addressing the danger of hanging on the words of individuals at all. If you think that this is somehow equates to putting my trust in, well, myself, then let me reassure you. While I know that I love God more than anything, I don't "trust" myself at all. This is because that I know myself better than anyone other than my Creator.

During one of the SermonIndex revival conferences, I remember hearing Paul Washer mention that he wouldn't trust a young man being alone with his daughter. His reason? He said that this was because he doesn't trust himself.

That's not to say that Pastor Washer is afraid of what he WOULD do, but aware of the flaws of humanity in what he COULD do. It wouldn't be an indictment of a young man who wants to spend time with his daughter but an indictment of the flaws of mankind inflicted upon anyone with a sinful nature.

One of my go-to messages on SermonIndex is by David Wilkerson entitled HOLY GROUND. This message was shared at a Christian workers conference hosted by Youth With A Mission (YWAM).

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=336

In this message, Wilkerson highlighted the moment that Moses stood before the Burning Bush on Mt. Sinai. At one point, God told Moses to put his hand into his bosom.

"And the Lord said unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom; and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow..." (Exodus 4:6).

Wilkerson expounded on this by saying:

What terror - to reach into your own bosom and touch leprosy! What an object lesson on the utter depravity of the flesh. There is nothing but disease and death in the old man. How can Moses stretch forth a leprous hand to bring about deliverance? Impossible!

Was God indulging in a little magic with Moses? No! He has no time for tricks and pranks. This was a powerful lesson the man of God must learn. It was God's way of saying to His man,

"When self is in control, you end up hurting people, bringing reproach on My work. When you attempt to do My work in spectacular, fleshly ways - you minister death, and not life.
"I cannot use that old nature from Egypt - it can't be transformed - it will always be leprous. There must be a new man, one caught up in the glory and power of the 'I AM'!"

Moses was commanded to put his leprous hand back into his bosom. "And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh..." (Exodus 4:7).

He would do it again in the sight of all Israel. God's people would see with their own eyes not only the miraculous anointing on the Lord's servant, but also his potential for horrible evil. They were not to get their eyes on Moses, but rather on the great "I AM." Did any in Israel that day dare to put their hand in their bosom - fearing the leprosy that lay hidden in themselves? The flesh was exposed that day, in all its ugliness and corruption.

Stretching forth the hand represents ministry. By it the seas opened, fire fell, and miracles were performed. Who among us today dares to stretch forth a leprous hand? Who will attempt to do God's work with a bosom filled with unexposed leprosy?

It will always be there, latent in the old man - the sin nature. And God wants it exposed to our spiritual eyes. Not only is there "no good thing" in us - there is a leprous thing in us! It is that horrible thing that lusts against the Spirit, that deadly thing that one must die to, at the Cross.

What a grief it must be to the heart of God to reject so many works done in His name, because they have leprosy in them. The leprosy of ego. The leprosy of human success - competition - self motivation.

The leprosy of a worker permeates everything he touches. One may create a great, even spectacular, work for God. All may praise its bigness, its grandeur. But the truth will out. If it has in it the seed of leprosy, it will spread until it finally kills.

What is leprosy, but sin? Hidden, unexposed, unforsaken sin! What happens when a man of God gets on holy ground? His inner soul is exposed! His deepest, hidden sins are brought to light. You can't lie with a leprous hand staring you in the face. No longer are you telling people what you've done for God - you are not glorying in your service to Him. You are too humbled by the exposure of what is in your flesh. Never again will you take lightly the potential for evil, latent in the flesh.

This is something of which I am referring. There is a potential for great evil if we attempt to operate the gift of prophecy without absolute certainty that it is God speaking through us -- even if we have good intentions.

I reference Balaam -- mostly because it is something that I have been thinking about lately. However, Balaam is mentioned throughout the Old and New Testament scriptures.

I'm not saying that all of those election prophets fell into the error or Balaam. I'm not saying that all of them are guilty of "selling themselves" by publicly prophesying either. I'm just pointing out that there is a fearful responsibility for anyone who publicly speaks on behalf of God.

A person who attributes a "word" to God that is NOT from God is bearing false witness (the 9th Commandment) against God himself. They are also taking the Name of the Lord our God in vain (the 3rd Commandment).

While I didn't watch the various videos sent to me of the "prophetic words" uttered about Donald Trump and his reelection, I did read some. Some were very specific. They were specifically wrong.

Some of those "words" talked specifically about the Supreme Court "overturning" election results. Others mentioned that Joe Biden would be declared the winner but that "God" would overturn the results and that Trump would be inaugurated. These "words" are undoubtedly wrong.

Can Donald Trump run again in 2024? In terms of the Constitution: YES, he can. In fact, I'd almost certainly vote for him.

Yet, my faith isn't in Mr. Trump. As much as I appreciated the policies of his presidency and the results of it, our faith is (obviously) in our King. President Trump was little more than an instrument used by the Lord for the past four years (for reasons that are, again, obvious and possibly for reasons that might not be entirely clear to us).

Still, there is still a grave responsibility for accuracy if one wants to speak for God. While I read many "prophets" say that Trump would be reelected, I didn't read any of those "prophets" say that Biden would be inaugurated (at least prior to the election).

Since the inauguration, I have read of "prophets" claiming that Biden will resign, die or be declared unfit for office. I'm not sure if they are speaking for God or simply the widespread claim or assumption that Biden (78 years old) might have a rapidly diminishing mental state.

Although I am a citizen of this temporary country (the United States of America -- just as Paul declared his citizenship of Rome), this life is a journey and pilgrimage and not a sprint. As such, as important as they are, the elections of 2020 and 2024 don't seem quite so defining. This is especially true when we know that God is in control of all things.

I do believe that the Lord will return soon. I just don't know if it will happen in my lifetime. In fact, I am not even certain how long I will walk on the sod of this world. Remember: Eternity is much more imminent for most of the people of this world than the Lord's return. There are many people who will die today, tomorrow and so on before the Lord returns to this world. I just pray that I can live my life the way that the Lord desires before I breathe my last breath or before he returns.

Brother,

I spent a lot of time editing and removing offensive language, unloving-sounding phrases, restructuring my post, etc, because I do love you. And I did it for no others, but you and the Lord whom I serve, fearing that I may be too harsh or that I may be discouraging. And I thank God that I did, so that I can be vindicated before the Lord regarding your accusation.

Brother, don't you see? If I reject these prophesies on biblical grounds, but am forced to accept them on the basis that God has a timeline out there that makes anything and everything anyone says entirely within the realm of possibility, I am in a position very much like what you are claiming to be in. How can I ever make a judgment from that? How can I do what the Bible says and test the spirits, if the ultimate trump card is always "wait and see." How long do I have to wait? It was 4 days, now it's forever.

Hi Dolfan,
Who told you that its not from God?How do you know?A dream,a vision a word? what is your qualification.
Paul didnt bring it to the Church ,neither Peter.
What you are talking about is witchcraft Dolfan,you want things controlled to suit your own doctrine and happy clappy Church time.
I dont see Art Katz bringing things to the local Church?but hes allowed to talk all he likes about persecution that never comes to pass.If the qualification for a false prophet is nothing coming to pass then he hits the nail on the head perfectly.
If thats the case why didnt you go to the local Church before posting this post?
What kind of censorship do you want to set up?
Will we set up a committee to decide what dreams are true or what are not?
You have a very immature understanding on how God works in my opinion if you think everything has to go back to the local Church for approval.On top of that we do not have a local Church,their is no such thing,its a myth.
I think you need to get back to the studying the word to understand that God can and does miracles and if he wants Donald Trump back then he will put him back,

urs staff

Hi Havok,
My 4 days are not over and I have said before it is not forever.You want to put a timeline on when God works or not and I wont do that.
We want a neat and tidy timeline ,the 3rd,the 14th ,the 20th etc to suit our own insecurities.
Nobody is forcing you to accept anything.Go to God yourself and ask him and get him to give you a clear confirmation of what he told you.
You asked and I told you what God gave me.I would be telling complete lies to you if I didnt tell you what God showed me.
What he showed me ,shows me that this is not over despite some Christians wanting it to be over.Whether that means Trump will return God has not shown me personally so I cant say he will because id be guessing,
I know that God has inserted himself in without being noticed and the same God that told me im saved told me clearly he has inserted himself in.

So I must follow and listen to God rather than man as you would if you were in my situation,
urs staff

P.s whats ur process for testing the spirits?and whats ur process for testing dreams?or visions?

The two tests in Deuteronomy, plus the tests in 1 John.

If they do not meet those tests, they are false.

Hi Chriss,
I have been more critical of the false prophesies more than you all but I am not going to throw the baby out with the false prophesies.I have heard all the excuses ,the Church didnt pray it in,God saw Trumps heart or it was meant to be 2024 etc etc.
Also some Christians pay lip service to Prophesy,dreams and visions and when they happen look for all kinds of excuses not to accept them,
"oh im so super spiritual i didnt see that in the word"
"go to the local church and see what they say"
"So many of these prophets on youtube boo hoo".

Voting for Donald Trump was a no brainer as the other side has an Anti Christ Spirit pulling its strings so nobody gets any credit for voting that way.
Trump is just a man nothing more as you say that God used as an instrument and if God decides to bring him back this term it will be a complete miracle and even the secret Christian anti Trumpers will have to acknowledge it.However if he wins in 2024 I dont see that as a miracle,it could happen in the natural,

urs staff

I may be wrong but this thread could get locked if it keeps on in a certain direction. Which would be very disappointing, because, that was the absolute furthest thing from my mind in making the original post. It's so possible to talk about things in a civil way if one really cares about doing so.

Staff, you ought to consider getting out of the thread. You have done just as I thought you would. Even before I made the OP, I figured after I did that you would show up almost immediately and begin sowing strife and contention. Ha, I must be a true prophet because you have done so. Anyone can tell you need to improve your manner of posting. As usual, you have been all up and down this thread correcting people who don't see things as you do and have many more posts than anyone else. You want the last word always. Be at peace, because you have gotten in the last word which if you don't have the last word seems to rob you of peace. Now you're even suggesting Art Katz is a false prophet. You have basically took command of the thread and that was not my intent. Can you discuss things properly like I see others attempting to do? I guess not. I'm sorry folks have to see this, but the solution is very easy if one really wants to interact in a healthy manner. I thank everyone in this thread who has done so. So meanwhile staff, why don't you retire from the thread? It is you who have taken it unnecessarily downward.

If the thread gets locked because of what I just said then all I can do is apologize to you good folks. Sincerely. I just think enough is enough.

The flame goes out when wood is no longer placed on the fire.

I am still wanting to discuss the 2 videos if anyone is still inclined to do so.

Thank you all.

Hi Docs,
Your accusations are inaccurate and every time I try to discuss the issues you start making them.
Telling the truth is not sowing strife Docs.
Jeremiah Johnson should step down from ministry and he didnt but started making excuses why his prophesy was wrong about the elections.
If you dont like my responses then dont post provocative biased posts.
As with any post they sometimes takes different directions.
People made commments to me and I answered.
Many times I have started threads and the subject changes this way and that but this thread hasnt even changed that much at all.It started about prophesy and its ending about prophesy.
It wouldnt suprize me if Christian free speech was banned or locked or silenced,its happened everywhere else why not here.So if you want to silence free speech carry on making completely inaccurate accusations.
On Art Katz I was showing how hypocritical we are towards what gets posted on Youtube ,if its about persecution its fine anything can be said but if its prophesy nothing kind can be said.I was pointing out the double standards that were being applied,
I am dissapointed that you are trying to shut down an opposing opinion but that is up to you
urs staff

Hi Havok ,
Me too that makes sense,
urs staff

Hi Docs,
Also I would like you to get the answers that you were looking for regarding the videos so the floor is yours.
I have said all I had to say and I have nothing new to input so I would encourage all the members to look at the videos and give your opinion as Docs has asked.Which I think is a good thing to do.I have had my say and others can too.
More opinions are usually a good thing and I encourage free speech as a good thing so I am stepping out of the discussion with no hard feelings on my side and I am sure the same from you ,
urs staff

David I hesitate to write this, but you asked for our thoughts brother. I do not do politics, this is not a judgment on those who feel they are lead of the Lord to do such! Obey God in all things as He directs! As an older brother in Christ told me, "If God tells you to do something, do it no matter the opinions of other."

I attempted to watch part 2 on your request. I couldn't get through it brother. A sickness in my stomach started forming, like if I'm around something sinful, like a tv show that is not of God. I will feel sick inside.

That might sound silly to many on here respectively, but for me it is a sign to stay away from whatever it is.

Thank you again for indulging me, and perhaps we are talking about different aspects...
I agree that the gift of prophecy is within the church’s jurisdiction to confer and test tho are you also saying that the office of the prophet should likewise have a test applied?

In Acts we find Agabus, a certain prophet, who gave a word concerning Paul’s journey to Rome, are you suggesting that word should have been tested by the local elders before Paul received it as from the Lord?
If I’m understanding correctly, that is what JJ is suggesting- but I may have misunderstood him?

Billy wrote:
"I attempted to watch part 2 on your request. I couldn't get through it brother. A sickness in my stomach started forming, like if I'm around something sinful, like a tv show that is not of God. I will feel sick inside.
That might sound silly to many on here respectively, but for me it is a sign to stay away from whatever it is..."

No that's not silly, that's the Holy Spirit working in you, telling you to stay away !
I watched a few minutes when his name first came up, several weeks ago, had to stay away too.
Keep your eyes on Jesus and the Word of God !

I watched this part 2 video for some 10 mins. Cannot go any further. So far I agree with major points he has put. But I still do not agree with this guy nor his initiative to reform. To change things a person has to change first. Reform yourself and then people who see you will be reformed. This method of 'God has called to be a reformer', makes one a self-made leader of a reformation. Again I see lust and huger for power here.

Some of his points I have posted here long before,
1. Difference between NT and OT prophets. All these prophetic movement are operating under OT framework.
2. Under NT a prophet should be subject to Church.
3. Under NT a prophet does not primarily predict future events.

In his apology letter I did not see him say that his subject of prophesy was wrong, instead he only said he missed to validate his prophesy. But based on point 3, his subject of trying to predict the future president is clearly not an NT prophesy. He should have apologized for touching on a subject that he should not have touched.
This my point that I have posted multiple times here, such political predictions are nothing but fortune telling which a true Christian will not listen. If anyone who has even an ounce of discernment from God he will not consider such cheap political predictions as prophesy. Like Greg said there is a need for discernment in the believers.

/Thank you again for indulging me, and perhaps we are talking about different aspects...
I agree that the gift of prophecy is within the church’s jurisdiction to confer and test tho are you also saying that the office of the prophet should likewise have a test applied?/

What do you mean by test? Shouldn't a prophet or a prophet in learning so to speak at least have some kind of oversight and test applied? Does he strive for the good of the body? Is he teachable? How is his character? How does he conduct his home life? Have his prophecies been accurate? Does he seem like one who is to have the office of a prophet or is he just someone that has excelled in exercising the gift of personal prophecy etc? I would think it never hurts to look for these kind of things.

/In Acts we find Agabus, a certain prophet, who gave a word concerning Paul’s journey to Rome, are you suggesting that word should have been tested by the local elders before Paul received it as from the Lord?
If I’m understanding correctly, that is what JJ is suggesting- but I may have misunderstood him?/

I don't remember JJ mentioning Agabus specifically. He may have, but I'm not sure. I think what JJ is getting at is that so much has been going on, prophecies regarding things of great importance, and they have turned out to be wrong and have misled and disappointed many. Of things of such importance, why shouldn't these modern prophets be willing to maybe bounce it off others of a similar calling before they give the word? If Agabus gave this word, he should at least been willing to have it judged. I don't know the ins and outs of all that went on in this instance, but there seems to have been no problem with his word. It seems it was received as authentic and from the Lord. Usually people give words and it may not have been checked beforehand. So be it. But after one gives a word, especially of things of major importance that may effect many, they should at least be willing for it to be judged I would think.

/David I hesitate to write this, but you asked for our thoughts brother. I do not do politics, this is not a judgment on those who feel they are lead of the Lord to do such! Obey God in all things as He directs! As an older brother in Christ told me, "If God tells you to do something, do it no matter the opinions of other."/

JJ was not recommending politics. He was in fact recommending that the church divorce itself from so much politics such as went on during the recent election and in the time before the election.

/I attempted to watch part 2 on your request. I couldn't get through it brother. A sickness in my stomach started forming, like if I'm around something sinful, like a tv show that is not of God. I will feel sick inside./

If you stopped watching before the end you likely missed the meat of his message and the most important part of what he said. But so be it, you're not obligated to watch by any means.

/No that's not silly, that's the Holy Spirit working in you, telling you to stay away !
I watched a few minutes when his name first came up, several weeks ago, had to stay away too./

Well, I don't think you can give a informed assessment if you watched just a bit of Part I. But if it effected you that way then what is to say? I'm sorry it did.

/Keep your eyes on Jesus and the Word of God!

That is exactly where JJ ended up, but if you didn't watch you can't know.

Thank you.

/I watched this part 2 video for some 10 mins. Cannot go any further. So far I agree with major points he has put. But I still do not agree with this guy nor his initiative to reform. To change things a person has to change first. Reform yourself and then people who see you will be reformed. This method of 'God has called to be a reformer', makes one a self-made leader of a reformation. Again I see lust and huger for power here./

/To change things a person has to change first./

This was very well covered in part 2 if one watches it in its entirety.

/Again I see lust and huger for power here./

That in my opinion is a very unfortunate and untrue characterization of the man due to your only watching 10 minutes of a 36 minute message. You are under and ill informed on this point. That may sound a bit pointed, but what else can be said since you only watched a small part of his message? I'm not trying to set him on a high pedestal, but if I'm given a book to report on and read only one third of the book how can I give an accurate book report? It's only logical to say I can't give an accurate book report. If you only watched a bit of his message, you really can't give an accurate assessment.

I think you have many good points in your points 1-3. I'm thinking though that Agabus was a NT prophet, and he gave a prophecy regarding the future about the famine that was to come. These type of predictions do not seem to be entirely out of bounds for NT prophets. It just has to be asked, when they make these predictions are they accurate? JJ points out that so many of the prophets and their prophecies regarding the election were not accurate, including his,and were made of an unholy mix wrapping the kingdom in secular politics. But that's already been said.

Toward the end of his message, JJ said he believes the main calling and role of a NT prophet is to reveal Christ to the body. I can agree with that.

Hi staff,

I apologize if it seemed that I was being harsh on you at all. I feel nothing but love for you as a brother in the Lord. If that isn't clear from my posts, then that is certainly my own fault.

I hope that you do not think that scrutinizing (or, as I Thessalonians 5:21 exhorts, "testing") everything is a sign of unbelief. If anything, it can be a sign of faith in God and his Word first.

I've engaged in discussions (and debates) with environmentalists in the past. They often use the terms "science denier" or "climate denier" as a label for anyone who doesn't simply accept their words.

Most of the time, it becomes very clear that most of those individuals do not have a background in science at all. Rather, they have simply heard what someone else claimed, believed it and now proclaim (or demand) that everyone else accepts their claims.

It is difficult to explain to them that REAL science actually encourages scrutiny and peer-review. If a supposedly proven postulate or theory is true, then it can be proven again. Of course, in the case of climate science, the data itself can be scrutinized, questioned and tested to see if there are flaws in the methods for obtaining that data.

The same is true of most quantifiable claims. Those who publish their claims (usually in peer-review academic journals) welcome others to test those claims. After all, if the results are replicated, it adds further weight to the initial claim.

The Bible does call this "testing everything." We hold on to the good and discard the rest.

In the past, there have been people who made claims that were unscriptural. Consider the "Mormon" cult.

Joseph Smith claimed that he had been visited by an angel and presented another testament of Jesus Christ. Yet, after translating 116 pages, the man funding his "work" borrowed the manuscript. There is some evidence that this man's wife, Lucy Harris, hid the manuscript in order to test whether or not Smith could produce an identical translation of the same plates.

Obviously, Smith could not retranslate the same "golden plates" again in a way that would match the previous (albeit missing) translation. So, instead of even trying, he conveniently claimed that God was angry with him for allowing his benefactor to take the 116 "translated" pages. He then went on to "translate" something that was very similar -- but from a different golden plate.

Martin and Lucy Harris (with Martin being one of the original "witnesses" mentioned at the beginning of the Book of Mormon) were considered evil.

Obviously, Joseph Smith was a charlatan and an agent of Satan. He couldn't have replicated his claims. This was due to the fact that he wasn't really "translating" anything. He was making it up as he went along. He wasn't able to replicate his "translation" and substantiate his claims. So, he conveniently told people that God forbid him to retranslate the same scrolls a second time. Instead, he claimed that God told him to create a completely new translation of a different but similar account from a different set of plates.

Truth will always welcome honest scrutiny. In science, the math will add up (or not). In matters of faith, we have a primer -- the Word of God -- by which we test all things.

In terms of the 2016 election, while I believe that God had his hand in it, I still don't see Trump's election victory as a "miracle" (in the sense of God doing the impossible).

Months prior to the 2016 election, I engaged in some statistical analysis of the election. I looked at voting trends, preferences and polling data. I created a new hypothetical data pool (from the polling data) that I felt would more accurately reflect the sentiment and how likely someone would show up among all voters in each state. Consequently, I could quantify a truly legitimate path to victory by Donald Trump.

When it comes to 2024, we don't know if Donald Trump would even run again. In fact, most people don't think that Joe Biden will run again (due to his advanced age and questions about his mental state). So, at this point, we don't know who the likely candidates will be for their respective parties' nominations.

Yet, as you said, even if Donald Trump ran in 2024 and won, it wouldn't necessarily be a "miracle." After all, Donald Trump won the second largest vote tally in history just a few months ago. Without a pandemic and highly questionable mail-in ballot permissions, Donald Trump would have a very strong chance of winning in 2024.

In fact, this is probably the reason why the Democrats continued their perpetual witch hunt against Trump. They want to do their best to diminish his chances in 2024 or to lower voter turnout among his base in both 2022 and 2024.

My point is that any prophet should expect and welcome scrutiny and the "testing" of their words. If their words do not come to pass, there can be plenty of explanations. They can be very well-meaning. However, the underlying truth is that they uttered a false "word."

Way back when George W. Bush was president (and when things were going quite well), there was a couple of brothers on SermonIndex who prophesied that the American economy was about to collapse. The thing was that they had a date for that collapse.

That date came.
That date went.
The collapse didn't happen by that date.

As a result, these brothers left the website. They acknowledged that what they said didn't come to pass and apologized for it. Yet, they left.

Much later, the U.S. economy did suffer a terrible recession. This had been predicted by some economists as a coming "perfect storm" due to a series of factors (particularly from the new Democratic Party control of Congress). That recession -- the "Great Recession" -- spread around the world.

I've often wondered since then if those two brothers (both stopped posting on the website) might have been privy to something revealed to them during prayer. Instead of staying somewhat less concise, they might have added specifics (including a date) to what God might have revealed to them.

My concern is that people might be prone to take "sides" in any of this. We don't have to take sides -- because we are on the side of God. Our allegiance isn't with people. It is with the Creator of all things. Because of this, we love one another.

In all of this (and despite times when we are right or when we utterly miss the mark), I hope that our love between one another can grow. We shouldn't be afraid of truth (or others testing our words). However, we can and should point to our Lord with true, undying love in our hearts for one another.

/To change things a person has to change first./
This was very well covered in part 2 if one watches it in its entirety.

This is where I disagree with you. I have clearly posted why I felt 'he is not a change'. He might have very well talked about how he wants to change or what he thinks is the right way. But that does not make a change. New Covenant is not come and hear. For example a man who fell in adultery can give a sermon on how to be faithful to wife, that does not make him a changed person. We need to see the change in his life. Like Jesus said, come and see. A person should first live a life and show it out.

He just made a mocking prophesy of political prediction. He is now jumping into correcting others by leading a reformation. Let him first practice what he preaches and be a change. Then he can talk about reformation. I cannot agree when he came and said 'God called me to reform this movement'. First live the reformation and abstrain from such dirty predictions. Let people see this change in you.

I honestly felt it is a waste of time watching the full video. When you ask for opinion, you need to be willing to listen and not just force your views on others.

Blessings to you, but I'll just cut to the chase. If you watched only 10 minutes or whatever of a 36 minute video then we don't have anything to discuss. There is no way your comments can be construed as informed since you have not even listened to the full context of the message. Disagree if you will with his words, that's fine. I'm open. But common courtesy would seem to entail a full watching before denouncing the man. That's all. Nothing to discuss.

Thank you.

I see few posts about Agabus and how he predicted the future etc. There are 2 prophecies of Agabus in the book of acts,

1. Acts 11:29 in which he predicted the famine. Yes it is prediction of the future, but it was made to the Church of Antioch. He did not stand and predict the future to unknown people. The whole purpose of the prophesy is to warn the Church and make it ready to help the needy. We can read the awarness that this prophesy produced in the next verse.

It cannot be compared to these worthless political predictions made to unknown views in social media.

2. Acts 21:11 - here he is predicting the suffering of Paul in Jerusalem. It resulted in an action of praying for Paul with tears from the Church.
Again it was a prophesy made in the context of the Church. It cannot be compared with any social media stunts to gain publicity.

Predicting the future is not primary purpose of Prophesy. Though we see few instances of it in the book of Acts, we do not see any mention of it in the Epistles. We should develop our theology based on Epistles not based on Acts. For example Agabus could be a prophet by OT who then came to Christ. His gift of OT might still continue. But that does not mean God is still giving the same gift. I am not saying God will not, I am just saying we should not develop our theology by acts. If we do then why not circumcise each other like how Paul did Timothy? We all know the same Paul condemned such acts in the Epistles.

The epistles clearly say the purpose of prophesy is to edify and exhort (1 Cor 14:3). We should stand by this verse than what we understand from few rare instances in the book of acts.

Docs, I apologize for appearing to judge this speaker. That is not my intention. I agree with many points he mentioned about NT vs OT prophets. I wanted to say that just because I agree with his points, it does not mean I approve of him. Let him apply them and live it. I am very careful on whom I approve. It was just a word of caution that I used here. I have no intention to judge him. I am sorry if it appeared so.

I have been blessed by Jeremiah Johnson. He is a young man, and has called out many things that are wrong with the prophetic movement.

There has been in the Body of Christ the exalting of a man, believing that if the right men were in office it would fix everything.

What would have happened in the election if Donald Trump would have repented and said that he was wrong?

I believe that Trump was as a Cyrus and fulfilled the will of God for a season.

There is great trouble coming to U.S. We are headed for a radical change in our nation. The answer has always been 2 Chronicles 7.

Yes it is doubtful that JJ mentioned Agabus yet in scripture he had a role to play in Gods plan :))

Again I believe we might be talking past one another in that I do not see who could themselves verify a word from a prophet (office) 🤷🏽”â™‚️
Now certainly a general prophecy could be tested by the body but not a word from a prophet (office)... where in Acts or NT does this ever happen?

I remember our dear brother Keith Daniels had been invited and went into this place and gave a series of messages that were heartily received by some but rejected of others, namely the church leaders (pastors) took issue with the word of the prophet that they required all their own members whom had come forward after Keith preached to identify themselves, stand and leave the assembly having their membership revoked... later at a meeting to justify themselves before the people, God killed each one (3 total) in succession right in front of everybody and the word (prophecy) brought by Keith was tested and found lacking by well meaning men, but was upheld and even preserved by God.

(This was part of the msg given at SI conference in ATL GA sept 2013, I believe the title was something like - preach the law or get out of the pulpit)

We as the body must be disciplined lest we overreach and blaspheme our Lord and savior. These men were doing exactly what JJ is suggesting and God required their lives of them for it 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Again not trying to "be right” or argue at all,... I love you and believe you are just as sincere as myself, maybe more so - I do believe you are right in bringing JJ’s word here to be tested but when a prophet speaks the things of God we should handle those words soberly and earnestly.

I believe it was brother Billy who shared this msg on another thread, I believe you will be greatly blessed by it 🙏🏻

https://ia800608.us.archive.org/8/items/SERMONINDEX_SID2456/SID2456.mp3

Sir,
Be very wary of this individual. I can only tell you this by experience of his younger brother, Josiah. I was able to watch Josiah, firsthand; he is just a younger less mature version of his older brother. I know a zip code isn't a reason to stay away.....what comes out of Lakeland FL usually isn't profitable.

/Again I believe we might be talking past one another in that I do not see who could themselves verify a word from a prophet (office) 🤷🏽”â™‚️/

What about other prophets? What about someone in a local assembly or someone listening who may not bear witness to their word?

/I do believe you are right in bringing JJ’s word here to be tested but when a prophet speaks the things of God we should handle those words soberly and earnestly./

But what if one who calls himself a "prophet" is not speaking the words of God? Saying that is not of God is handling the word soberly and earnestly. Saying many prophets (or so called prophets) missed their prophecies about the recent election is a sober and earnest evaluation of their word. Likewise, when a prophet does speaks the words of God and it is obvious he is doing so, then we handle those words soberly and honestly by receiving them. In keeping good bro, if one truly has the office of a prophet and speaks a word and there is no one who can verify or not verify their word then I think we would have worked ourselves into a most serious and unfortunate situation. When thinking of that, remember I said that verifying as true a word coming from a prophet can be handling the word honestly and seriously.

I will try and taker a look at the link you provided.

Thank you for all.

Well, if Agabus is mentioned twice there is a reason for it I would think. He predicted the future and is identified as a prophet, so I think that though not exclusively a prophet predicting the future can be part of the prophetic ministry. Though not exclusively.

I agree with you that the purpose of prophecy is mainly to comfort and edify. Perhaps as JJ stated, he believes the main ministry and role of a NT prophet is to reveal Christ to His body. That usually brings comfort and edification.

/It cannot be compared to these worthless political predictions made to unknown views in social media.

Again it was a prophesy made in the context of the Church. It cannot be compared with any social media stunts to gain publicity./

How VERY VERY much I agree with this. I believe you have hit the nail on the head.

Thank you and blessings to you.

/What would have happened in the election if Donald Trump would have repented and said that he was wrong?/

I still don't knw all the ins and outs of what actually occurred by the hand of God in the election. But I know it's almost heresy to many to even suggest that President Trump, after having been granted the highest position and office on earth, may have continued in his unrepented of pride and arrogance so as to eventually have it get in the way of God's plan for him. It seems it is not entirely out of the picture of consideration and may have played a role. Whatever. Wherever we are at right now, it surely is the season to seek contriteness and humility. I feel like I have more pride of belief right now rather than humility of faith. Lord help us.