Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

[edited out some typos]

I wonder why does it say in the Heading "Revival and Church History?" Why not "Revival in the church today?" Is revival confined to sepia-colored photographs and the yellowish pages of classic books that speak of a glorious past?

Before I go into the topic of Acts 19:2, let me give you some background. I minister in a church where most of the church members come from a very strict evangelical Russian-German background. Men and women sat apart, head coverings, quiverful of children, tea-total, no TV, no internet, harsh church discipline for breaking rules. They usually live within their own circles. The older generation has endured persecution under Soviet rule. We have good and accurate bible teaching in our church, doctrinally correct but missing the fire of the Spirit.

There are many bible verses about that. In the Acts of the Apostles the baptism of the Holy Spirit is mentioned in many passages and occurrences. The apostles made sure that believers were filled with the Holy Spirit, and if not, they taught them and laid hands upon them. Aquila and Priscilla took Apollos aside and taught this great and learned preacher something he still lacked. What was it what the Samarian believers, Apollos, and the Ephesians in Acts 19 were still missing? The baptism of the Holy Spirit!.

This is a crucial question for me. I have been preaching 11 messages in our church about the Holy Spirit and preached that you should seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit after conversion. Most of our church members are perplexed to say the least and feel unsettled. There general believe is, you get the filling of the Holy Spirit at conversion and that settles it. There is no more to be expected, we have the complete word of God now and that is all there is.

I feel like trying to explain to fish that there is something above the water they know. I am praying for them and teaching them about it, but apart from one or two who became a bit curious, I have not been able to succeed in what the apostles did.

I wonder how can a church actually grow in grace and love and knowledge without having received the power from above? Are we not confined to just accurate teaching? Does it not become the letter that kills?
To the Jews Isaiah prophesied this passage, but are we not in danger to remain in the same deplorable state in present day churches?

Isa 28 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

I had received a powerful baptism of the Holy Spirit after a powerful conversion. It was so simple. I had been delivered from deep sin, demons and depression many years back. After I repented and got delivered, they laid hands on me to receive the Holy Spirit. Nothing happened at first. After I went home, I prayed, Lord, whatever you have for me, I need it and I want it, give it to me, and the Spirit filled me with grace, love, power and holiness until I could take no more. It was beyond any description!
I read many books about men and women of God who had the same experience. No two encounters were the same, but all experienced something wonderful. Not all where Charismatics or Pentecostals. I see the work of the Holy Spirit all over the place in the works of Jonathan Goforth, Hudson Taylor, John Wesley, James O. Fraser, D.L.Moody, R.A. Torrey, A.B. Simpson, Samuel Chadwick, Ravenhill and of course A.W.Tozer and Andrew Murray to name just a few.

I cannot imagine that a church can function properly without the golden oil poured out from above. I feel preaching is hard work, like a car being pulled by a horse-cart. (This is what poor Americans actually did during the great depression, but now we have a spiritual great depression and poverty of the Spirit, don't we?)

I know the power of the Spirit, but what is it that it takes to set a church on fire? Perhaps a man on fire, and maybe here is the crux. How can I be so on fire that others can catch it? Does not dry wood catch fire? Cannot empty vessels be filled? Is there not the promise for the thirsty to have their thirst quenched?

You're right brother it is a man on fire and now is a time, a season for separation of fasting and prayer even separating from ministry for a period of time until you get in indued with that power from on high, it's coming and it's touching people right now but you'll have to wait for a while if you don't seek it now, God said this season now is for fasting and praying and you won't feel that preaching his hard work after that when it comes upon you because the fire is coming as a revival Fire it's coming as a baptism of Fire but you don't want to wait for that, you want to be part of the ones that bring this 🔥. separate Yourself for a season and the season itself will separate you the season itself will sangctify you and lift you into a certain type of sanctification that you've never known and God will use you in a way that you've never been used, your words will be powerful, your words will become spirit and life the old man will die you'll recognise that he's dead and will have power over the old man to crucify the flesh and its passions and the Christ that lives in you, will come alive, the new man will do the work , 4 it is no longer us who live but christ who lives in us and he'll do the work you'll see conversions and baptisms of the holy spirit this will become common in your ministry but you must fast and pray and I dare say be quick to hear and slow to speak have a break from speaking for a period of time the lord will lead you into that and he will let you know how much time to have off and you'll be blessed,and recieve what it is that you asked for and what it is that you thirst for... Be blessed in the mighty name the powerful name of Jesus Christ through the spirit of Grace according to the promises of the father amen

It seems odd to me that so many churches (including my own) emphasize speaking in tongues as the initial evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. I personally think it's holiness and breaking the power of indwelling sin that is the initial evidence. I have known many people who think they speak in tongues but it looks to me like they speak made up gibberish, the same phrases over and over again. Besides, they don't live holy, set apart lives. I believe in tongues (and all of the gifts), but to me I want to see Jesus in the life of a believer. It seems inane to me that people who supposedly have the baptism can't even live like I do.

When I look at church history, I see person after person who was baptized with the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues. The earliest reference I can find after the Early Church era of people speaking in tongues is I believe John Wesley mentions a group of believers in France who spoke in tongues. It seems that gift lay largely dormant until the Azusa Street revival.

I hesitate to even say this on SI, but I do not have the baptism yet. It's almost like if I say that, everyone tries to convert me to their way of thinking (or tries to just plain convert me; some people think anyone that says that is unsaved). I definitely have the Holy Spirit; I feel God's presence, I love Jesus, I hate sin, my prayers are answered.

Some teach erroneously that believers who don't have the baptism don't have the Holy Spirit. I can't accept this. Scripture says, "But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." Romans 8:9 I know God. I know I'm saved. Nobody can tell me different, not even Michael the archangel.

You are very honest brother Nigel. Here is a question for you and others who read this:

If you believe that there is such a thing as the baptism of the Holy Spirit, do you think it is just an option or a must-have?
Would you want it if you can receive it?
Would you want to do away with anything that hinders you from receiving it?
Would you be willing to accept any gift He bestows to you?
Are you willing to bear the reproach that comes with it?

It's a must have. I want whatever Jesus has for me. I won't let anything stand in the way of me getting it. And yes, I will bear the reproach.

To be honest I've seen what other believers call the baptism with the Holy Spirit and I don't want it. I want what the apostle Paul, John Wesley, Leonard Ravenhill, Charles Spurgeon etc had.

Hello brothers,

I was at work years and years ago and had been seeking the baptism of fire! At conversion all my habitual sins were dropped liked handcuffes off my wrist. At work one night on break the Holy Spirit came upon me and I received a prayer language. With respect I must say it is not the same as what I have heard in some Pentecostal churches I have visited. (Added months before I received the prayer language at work, the precious lady that had led me to Christ was bringing me to different churches to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Funny though He chose to wait till I was at work to visit me, while on break, with no one around! This is not a cookie cutter Christianity. He can’t be put in a box. God does things differently concerning His children, as He pleases.)

I believe we are each given different Gifts in the body of Christ, as scripture states , and Jesus never spoke in tongues, that we know of. A prayer language is just one of many gifts spread out across the body to build up the body of Christ, for Christ glory!

Bottom line, I have surrendered my whole person to God, last night again seeking His Holy Spirit to have full control of me. Brother Kieth Daniel had a wonderful sermon on this full submission to the Holy Spirit. If I find it I will put it down. I want to know my Savior as close as possible, and not waste whatever time I have left before I’m took home! I have threw many things out of my life to make more time to be with Him, and meditate on His word, as I had done when I first met Him. Revelation 2:4

I’m not giving Satan an inch anymore! My time is precious and only Jesus deserves it! Not the spirit of the world! A full sacrifice of self is called for, and I have been crushing any possible idols through His grace and mercy, and His opening my blind eyes to them! That He can have all of me! Whatever He chooses to do with me! Even if it’s a concentration camp were He uses me to point others to Himself! He is worthy, I am undeserving. Sorry if I’m coming off angry, I’m not, but Satan is not going to take my time with the spirit of this world any longer!

I encourage you brother seek Him, smash anything not of Him and let us move on in Christ Jesus!

Jesus has given us the free gift of the Holy Spirit to receive, so that we would have power to be His witnesses.

The Holy Spirit abides within every true believer, but not all have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is the empowerment to every believer to fulfill the ministry that all have been given.

This infilling Of the Holy Spirit is not a one time experience, but we need to be filled with fresh oil continuously.

"The Holy Spirit falls on believers to clothe them with the Lord's power in being witnesses and to manifest the gifts of the Spirit. In this way, we are equipped with talent to work for God, and power to accomplish His will.
(Communion of the Holy Spirit) by Watchman Nee.

"The Work of the Holy Spirit within man is for life and living, enabling us to bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit. The work of the Holy Spirit upon man is for witness and service, causing us to manifest spiritual gifts."
(Communion of the Holy Spirit) by Watchman Nee.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Pursue after the Lord, not the mere concept of holiness, when you realized at last your utter depravity, the seal of our inheritance in Christ will work mightily, filling you with grace, the sweet grace of His presence and power.

Jesus has given us the free gift of the Holy Spirit to receive, so that we would have power to be His witnesses.

The Holy Spirit abides within every true believer, but not all have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is the empowerment to every believer to fulfill the ministry that all have been given.

This infilling Of the Holy Spirit is not a one time experience, but we need to be filled with fresh oil continuously.

This is my understanding and personal experience as well.

I beleive I received the Holy Spirit when I was born again from a Hindu belief. I had holy Spirit to convict me of sin and to bring repentance and belief in Jesus name. But I was still powerless to testify Jesus boldly, powerless to fight against sin, I was still defeated.
But there was a particular night in which the Lord met with me to baptize in the Holy Spirit. From that time I received power to be His witness. Bible became a different book, love of God was poured into my heart.

Now regarding the experience with the Church that the original post was talking about, I have been in the same place, I too felt I was leading a dry group of people. I was becoming restless in my burden for the Church. But with time everything changed. Church is the bride of Christ and Christ knows how to purify his bride. As a minister in the Church, we need to synch our burdens with that in Christ's heart. We need to trust in Christ to purify his Bride to make her ready for Him. He will do it, if we are willing to do our work in his Body.

This topic has been on my mind lately.

I am a reformed baptist of sorts, but my roots are slightly charismatic. From what I have gathered in Scripture, being filled with the Spirit should be continuous. Of course you can NOT be filled, but it should be something that happens multiple times at least or all the time at best.

Now that I say that. I have prayed a thousand different ways, asking God to fill me with the Spirit. But how do I know it has happened?

I look at my own life and am deeply frustrated with the discrepancy of what I want to be against what I am. I see the struggle I have with sin, with boldness, with usefulness to the Kingdom. I know I am called to be a missionary, but what kind of believers am I going to replicate? One's like me? That'd be pretty sorry.

So I think to myself, "maybe I am missing being filled with the Spirit." But no matter what I pray or what I say or what I do, I only ever change by degrees.

Am I closer to the Lord today than I was 10 years ago? Absolutely. Am I where I want to be? Not by a long shot.

I crave to be used by God. I don't care if anyone even notices. And all the while I think, "maybe I am missing being filled with the Spirit." God said he would withhold no good thing. He said that if I ask to be filled He would do it. Well if the deficiency isn't in God, then it is in me, but yet I cannot articulate what I am doing incorrectly.

Just rambling, but that's what I go through when I think about this stuff. It's a conundrum that I cannot solve. I can't deny what I see in the Scripture regarding being filled with the Spirit. And God knows that I am powerless to flip the switch to ramp up my boldness/holiness/etc. So what gives? What's the problem with me?

Yes! Amen 🙏🏻
He is essential to fulfillment in His Kingdom
As He moves, we move,... "keeping step with the spirit"
Pray we have a tender conscience towards Him and a heart that is quick to respond .
Intentionally keeping close to Him
If you’ve been gifted with the Holy Ghost you have been called into service;

1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
((((4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.))))
5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

Light is essential in the spiritual battle, and the light of His presence is life that overcomes the darkness. We must stay in close step with Him else we lose our light - we can only stay close if we "follow” Him where He goes. Prayer,... especially for our enemies is one way that’s effective.
Interceding is His mark,.. standing in the gap between the Living God and a spiritually dead person/people.

People can and do fake the "gifts” and pious religious observance can fake the "fruit” but those are for others to see, to impress men. They’re still investing (sowing) into the world.
The response to follow Jesus from a willing heart can’t be faked,... but it can be and is bring neglected and forfeited if we stop investing our lives (sowing) into His Kingdom. [Not bearing our cross in the world]

His Kingdom, our eternal spiritual home, is at war.
His soldiers eat at His Table where He has prepared a feast of His Son, a perfect life, Jesus the Nazarene, the living word is our bread. If we don’t eat spiritual food we won’t have strength enough to fight, to labor in prayer.
If our shields (faith) isn’t tested,... refined in the Lords furnace, it won’t be strong enough to keep us out on the battlefield to do much other than to get off a few clumsy, poorly aimed (prayers) off before we get sniped by the fiery darts (distractions) and have to retreat from the fight.
If our eye be single (Jesus) we have true spiritual light, the eternal indestructible life of Christ. If our eye not be single, the "light" we have is can not overcome darkness. If we, and we’ve all experienced it, take our eyes off Jesus and begin to live (sow) into the world, we reap in the world we must harvest in the world and we’ve been altogether ineffective in His Kingdom as our attention and efforts were elsewhere. His light is only in His proximities and when we aren’t intentional about staying in Christ we will inevitably be drawn away by the cares and concerns of this world.
That’s the evidence, the mark of the Holy Spirit. Being baptized with Him is only the beginning, learning to learn from Him, abiding with Him in prayer, letting Him teach us His word, etc... Otherwise we’re still in the fishbowl of the world and no amount of cunning or sorcery can fake being out of the bowl to anyone who is not in it. They’ve never been translated into His Kingdom, the Holy Spirit is essential to all Kingdom operations.

Hi Nigel, I will pray for you to get it.

Dear brother havok,
You are in a good position to start with: desiring it, feeling powerless, wanting to be used of the Lord.

I will pray for you.

The term "baptism with the Holy Spirit” has been a problematic phrase for many people. Historically this problem has arisen from the Holiness Pentecostal teaching that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is conditional upon having first had an experience of "instantaneous, entire sanctification.” Their doctrine called this a "second blessing.” This same Pentecostal tradition also taught that one had to speak in tongues as the "initial evidence” that one had actually been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

This doctrine, while perhaps descriptive of the experience of the early Pentecostals, does not hold up to the biblical witness. One does not have to speak in tongues or have some experience of perfection to ask for and to receive the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Further, the purpose of the baptism with the Holy Spirit is not to give us religious experiences, though that may happen, nor to make us "holy,” though it may energize our sanctification. Rather, it is to make us useful in the Kingdom of God. Jesus Himself clearly defines the purpose and result of being baptized with the Holy Spirit when He says, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth” (Acts 1:8). For the first disciples, this promise was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. They were not converted but empowered to witness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The meaning is clear: The baptism with the Holy Spirit is the gateway into the empowering, gift-giving dimensions of the Holy Spirit’s work.

-Daniel

15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever”” the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.,,,, there's a measure of humility and obedience required to receive the baptism of the spirit, and also the fire of god, pride must be recognized in ones life , for I will resist the proud only give this grasious to the one who humbles him self under the mighty hand of god ,and god will then exalt him ,,faith is required, you must know god will do it , ask , seek and knock....and the blessing will come

It empowers one for ministry, as evidenced at the day of Pentecost. Not to say the disciples weren't saved or had power prior to that. If you read the gospels Jesus commissioned the disciples to preach the gospel, heal the sick and cast out demons prior to His death and resurrection. And they did!

But Peter and the disciples kept failing in many ways, so they also needed power to eradicate indwelling sin. After Pentecost you see them getting victory in areas they were defeated in before.

I am really not trying to fault find or be critical here, but I sense an attitude of elitism among some christians (not pointing fingers at anyone here) who have had the experience (actually or supposedly). Shouldn't christians encourage one another rather than lay a heavy trip on people? I feel sometimes like I'm at the back of the bus, so to speak.

I remember one christian in my town whom I have known for many years, who told me "not to try to minister to my family until I had gotten the baptism". I thankfully ignored the advice, and after praying for my mother for several years, giving her a Bible and ministering to her, she said one night when she was praying and reading her Bible all night she felt "Jesus was in the room with her", in her words. I asked her what she was praying and she said "I said to Jesus I would do whatever He said." She had clearly repented, and was a changed person after that. Yes, she still had struggles, especially with addiction, but she hated sin from that moment on. She died suddenly about a year later. If I had listened to my friend she would most likely be in hell right now.

Does anyone here have any resources about this topic?

There are actually several "brands" of this idea:

The old-school Wesleyan type (pre pentecostal) that was called "the second blessing." Even that was divided into what it meant. Some took the Keswickian route and stated that one could enter into sinless perfection at the arrival of this "second blessing" into full consecration. Others merely claimed it was power for service, power over indwelling sin, etc.

Pentecostals call it "baptism with the Holy Spirit" and there are several brands of that. Some--particularly oneness (which is already unorthadox)--claim that unless you speak in tongues, you're going to hell. Others (who don't deny the Trinity) generally claim that speaking in tongues is merely "normative" or "evidence" for a believer who receives the baptism of the Spirit.

Baptists who are not against the idea of being filled with the Spirit in a capacity beyond salvation tend to claim that being filled with the spirit is a desired state that is continuous, or that it happens multiple times.

ALL OF THAT BEING SAID:

I think it will benefit us to clarify, succinctly (please no dissertations) what it actually is that we believe about this doctrine. The reason this will help us in this conversation is so that we can help understand one another's positions. This is NECESSARY given that each one of us is assuming a definition upon the others. Sometimes, we use the same terms and mean different things. If we don't sort these things out on the front end, we'll just end up arguing.

I hold the final position I listed, if that helps.

Hi Havok,

You beat me to it. I hold to the same position as you. I come from an Assemblies of God background. There is so much confusion on this subject its unbelievable. Within one church you can have multiple differing viewpoints amongst the members. Once you start involving multiple churches it gets even more diverse. And once you involve multiple pentecostal denominations even more so. Assemblies of God teaches two blessings but there are other denomination like Church of God which teaches three blessings! Which one is it one, two, or three blessings?

Anyway I spent years trying to figure this out. I will do a thorough follow up post on my findings later today or when I get some time. But in the meantime here is a question to ponder. How come there is not a command or exhortation to seek a second blessing in the epistles or in the book of Revelation when Jesus rebukes the churches? Another question is where are these teachings coming from? Its mostly drawn out of non doctrinal/descriptive texts from the book of Acts and the gospels. Anyway I will do a follow up on this a little bit later when I get some time.

Getting ready to leave work, but Tozer has one I let my brother borrow. He has said it has really helped Him so far.

Added, He told me God is really speaking to him through it.

Life in the Spirit (Hendrickson Christian Classics): Tozer, A W

But in the meantime here is a question to ponder. How come there is not a command or exhortation to seek a second blessing in the epistles or in the book of Revelation when Jesus rebukes the churches?

Ephesians 5:18 - And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit.

So Epistles commands us to be filled with the Holy Spirit. If receiving the Holy Spirit is just one time blessing at the time when we are born again then why are we commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit?

I believe in 2nd blessing, but I also believe that God can give both in one blessing as well. That is what God's intention is, to bless us with Baptism of Holy Spirit when we are born again. But God cannot share his glory with man. Hence God clothes us with power only when we are powerless or recognize that we are powerless. If we recognize that we are powerless to fight sin at our born again experience then we will be clothed with power from high. But most of us are not. At least I was not. I believed I was a sinner and I need forgiveness. Hence I accepted Jesus as Lord and savior of my life. But it took me more than a year to recognize that I am in capable of fighting against sin by my own will power. The day I hit the rock bottom and acknowledged my failure, God baptized me with his Holy Spirit.

2nd blessing with of the apostles is clearly scriptural.

John 20 : 22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

This is the first blessing. The Apostles received the Holy Spirit when they believed in the resurrection of Jesus.

In Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost, the same apostles received the Holy Spirit with Power, the baptism of Holy Spirit. Hence it is 2nd blessing.

Whether one believes in 2nd blessing or not. What Jesus said in Acts 1:8 is true -

Acts1: 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

If we do not have this power that Jesus speaks about to be a living Witness of Christ and to overcome sins, then we need to ask Jesus for this power. Else we need to call Jesus a liar. But sitting idle without asking anything as a powerless Christian, holding proudly to your theology is a wasted life. I see most Christians live such a life of powerless contentment.

This is something that is beyond a crash course or a day of internet search, the important biblical references had been discussed here at SI over the years.

This is something personal, yet needs the guidance of the inspired men of God. This is not a mere academic subject.

"But sitting idle without asking anything as a powerless Christian, holding proudly to your theology is a wasted life. I see most Christians live such a life of powerless contentment."

You see its statements like this that will get you into trouble in a discussion. Holding proudly? So its matter of pride? And there wouldn't be a possibility of it being the other way around?

"Ephesians 5:18 - And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit."

You are correct that is the prescriptive passage I was going to go to. Where in that passage does it say second blessing?

I have worked in factories most my life. Being empowered by the Holy Spirit has allowed me to witness to others concerning Christ with not only my voice, but also with my daily walk with Christ. Without His empowering our witness with our voice can’t be confirmed through our walk, because without that great grace we would constantly be failing and slipping up around those observing our lives daily.

Added. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a cure all though. We must spend time with Christ and His Word continually or we still back slide.

Added. Also from experience, I see multiple fillings, after the very first one throughout our Christian life. I believe everyday, as I spend time before our Father I am refilled. I feel it like He is breathing down on me grace as wind within my mind as I sit still in His presence.

"Ephesians 5:18 - And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit."

You are correct that is the prescriptive passage I was going to go to. Where in that passage does it say second blessing?

The passage as I explained in my post is clearly talking about multiple blessing. Not even 2nd blessing but more than that. A continuous filling of the Holy Spirit.

You see its statements like this that will get you into trouble in a discussion. Holding proudly? So its matter of pride? And there wouldn't be a possibility of it being the other way around?

The point I am making here is, if a person is powerless against sin then he/she should not be content with their Christian life but seek the power irrespective of their belief (one time blessing or multiple blessing). But instead I see most people content with their powerless life but hold their theology of one time blessing so strongly. This I see as a great contradiction.

Our belief and theology should reflect in our life. Else something is wrong.

Ephesians is my go to passage. But also, looking at acts, you see the initial filling of the Spirit which empowered the Apostles, and then a subsequent filling that occurred after the apostles prayed for boldness (acts 4). Being full of the Holy Spirit wasn't just a requirement for apostles. It was a requirement for Deacons (Acts 6:3).

I also think of Saul. Although it is not a passage that I would use to prove it, I do find it interesting that Saul, who barely knew God, was taken control of by the Holy Spirit and made to prophesy. I would expect, if a believer, who is a lover of God, were to receive the Holy Spirit, that something no-less-miraculous would happen. Not to mention the clear and evident power David displayed through the presence of the Spirit of God in his life.

Then I look at my own life--anemic at best. But there have been times when I knew, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the Spirit of God had filled me and empowered me for the task at hand. It wasn't a feeling. There were no tongues. But the Lord was moving and using me. I remember the first time it happened. I was witnessing to a young man, who put his earphones on to ignore me. Suddenly, my mouth opened and the Gospel came out. His music suddenly stopped. Every time I would open my mouth, his music would cut off and he heard the Gospel. He knew something strange was happening too. But it was almost like I was a bystander to the event. After that, it would happen when I would preach or speak on occasion.

Nowadays, it seems like I am powerless. I can't quite put my finger on what is going on. Maybe it just isn't as thrilling as it was, but that doesn't make sense either. Anyhow, there ya go.

One more word brethren then I will leave this post. Another thing concerning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and it is a Huge one!

The baptism allows us to have a relationship with the third member of the Trinity! It brings forth a relationship, a friendship, a helper, a teacher, comforter into our life, within us!

Look through the Book of Acts see Him and Paul talking! Brethren, it’s a relationship. A very precious one as He seeks to sanctify us and help us get ready for our bride groom Jesus Christ:)

I’m so thankful and happy as I think on this truth, and so thankful the Holy Spirit and I have a companionship between us. Thanks for opening this topic! To reflect on how much He loves us that not only did Christ die in our stead, but God the Father then sent His Spirit to be with us.

Thank you Father for all you have given us through Christ Jesus, though we deserve it not. This relationship is for each of us as Peter prophesied in Acts chapter 2.

Blessings in Christ to each of you.

"The passage as I explained in my post is clearly talking about multiple blessing. Not even 2nd blessing but more than that. A continuous filling of the Holy Spirit."

Right this is my basically my viewpoint with the exception that there is no second or third blessing its a continual/repeated filling of the Spirit. So why jump to conclusions then? We were on the same page basically. The issue here was the massive amount of confusion on all the differing terms and theologies because people are following men and not the bible and because they are not dividing the word of God carefully.

Now taking this verse it not only commands you to be filled continually with the Spirit but it tells you what to do to be filled with the Spirit which is in the following verses.

There is a parallel between Ephesians 5:18-19 and Colossians 3:16.

Ephesians 5:18-19 - And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16 -
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

The difference here is the phrase filled with the Spirit is replaced with let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. My conclusion is that they are one in the same. The real
anointing comes from the Book and no where else. See Joshua 1 and Psalm 1.

What do you with Martin Luther?

The purpose of the filling of the Spirit was to give boldness. The Holy Spirit is known as the Comforter. The old english meaning of that word comforter has something to do with boldness. Come/fortitude. The Holy Spirit is the one that brings/comes with inner fortitude and strengthens the Christian in hostile situations. For example, the disciples failed and fled when they took Jesus in the garden. But in the book of the Acts the same Peter and John testified boldy in front of the same attackers and went to prison because the Spirit empowered them with inner fortitude.

My question again is what do you with a guy like Martin Luther who would reject this whole thread and yet this man stood boldly against the whole Roman Empire and the catholic church and testified of the true faith at the cost of his life. You would have a major problem with that.

How about all the martyrs throughout history who were burned at the stake? Where did they get that boldness to endure from?

And yet it is ironic the majority of the same Spirit filled camp today flock by the multitudes flock into comfortable cities and into false doctrines like the prosperity gospel where suffering and taking up the cross are the enemies. In other words enemies of the cross who mind earthly things.

Fortunately, I doubt men like Luther "needed" to understand the doctrine before it was a reality. God is faithful. Just because you don't understand the exact mechanism of conversation before you are saved doesn't mean you won't get saved. It just means you don't understand what is happening to the greatest degree it can be understood. The same thing is true with many believers. There is a component to being filled by the Spirit that definitely rests in the hands of a Sovereign God. Many believers who suffered martyrdom did not walk out their door, stand in the sunshine, smell the warm air and say, "I think I'll give my life for Christ today!" It was thrust upon them, and yet, God is faithful. He gave them incredible grace and power to endure. I think of Perpetua and the brethren with her. (Read that story! It's wonderful!)

Maybe the problem with me is that I don't "need" God. I do. I know I do. But maybe that "need" is being blocked by my pride. Perhaps, it is an issue with humility, which I would be a liar to say I did not struggle with and LOSE many many times over.

Matthew 10-18-20 - And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

When the time comes God will empower as needed. Trust him for it.

My question again is what do you with a guy like Martin Luther who would reject this whole thread and yet this man stood boldly against the whole Roman Empire and the catholic church and testified of the true faith at the cost of his life. You would have a major problem with that.

I have no problem with Martin Luther. Why do you think I will have? It shows that you have not understood my belief yet. It is understandable as I do not go to either extremes that you see in Christendom today.

I believe in 2nd blessing. It is my personal experience as well as scripture. John 20:22 is the first blessing, Acts 2:3 is the 2nd blessing.

I have no problem with someone believing in only 1 blessing. I believe God can baptize a person in the Holy Spirit when they are born again. I am not someone who says it is always 2nd blessing. Also I do not even believe it is God's will to give us the blessing in parts. Hence I have no problem with whatever Luther believed as long as he had the power in his life to show. I only have problem with people who hold the belief of Luther without any power to be a living witness.

I also believe in the continuous filling of the Holy Spirit which is based on Ephesians 5:18.

Wind blows where it blows same is the man filled with the Holy Spirit. Which means Holy Spirit can work in a man in any ways He wishes. Who are we to constrain God by our man made theologies.

My conclusion is that they are one in the same. The real
anointing comes from the Book and no where else.

I disagree with you here. First I agree with you that Holy Spirit and the word of Christ are the same. Ephesians 6:17 says - "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God".

But Word of God is not constrained to the Bible. Jesus said man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Which means God is still speaking, he did not stop speaking after man canonized the Bible!

To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to have God's word spoken to us directly. We will live by God's word speaking to our hearts directly not through a book. But that word will always be in the same spirit as the written word which is the Bible. It is because God cannot contradict himself.

After my 2nd blessing experience I started sharing God's word in the Church. Those sermons were not prepared by sitting with a Bible for hours. Those were prepared by meditating on God's word in my heart when I am in my work, or spending time with my family or in my bed.

Just for the record I'm not a cessationist.

Your stating John 20:22 for the first blessing and then your stating Acts 2:3 for the second blessing. The problem is John 20:22 is before the cross. The apostles had to wait in the upper room to receive the Holy Spirit and they got it in the book of Acts. Acts 2:3 is when the Holy Spirit is given out for the first time. For Christians today those chapters are not applicable because we live post cross not pre cross. Do we need to wait another 40 days for the Holy Spirit to come down? Your making doctrine out of verses you should not be making doctrine out of. The gospels are before the cross and the book of Acts is a transitional book. This is the mistake you and a lot of other people are making and this is why there is so much confusion on this topic.

Why is there no command to seek a subsequent blessing in the epistles? When Jesus rebukes the churches in the book of Revelation why does he not mention this problem once?

"I have no problem with Martin Luther. Why do you think I will have? It shows that you have not understood my belief yet. It is understandable as I do not go to either extremes that you see in Christendom today."

"But sitting idle without asking anything as a powerless Christian, holding proudly to your theology is a wasted life. I see most Christians live such a life of powerless contentment."

Those are both your statements. Luther was a cessationist and I believe he still would be today. So you don't have any problem with cessationists (see your second statement above)? And how did Luther do what he did without the second blessing?

Sree, Is the Holy Spirit a Person or just a Power to you?

"But Word of God is not constrained to the Bible. Jesus said man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Which means God is still speaking, he did not stop speaking after man canonized the Bible!

To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to have God's word spoken to us directly. We will live by God's word speaking to our hearts directly not through a book. But that word will always be in the same spirit as the written word which is the Bible. It is because God cannot contradict himself."

I don't have an issue with the general spirit of this statement.

"Which means God is still speaking, he did not stop speaking after man canonized the Bible!"

I don't know what you mean by this statement if you think the canon is still open?

"To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to have God's word spoken to us directly. We will live by God's word speaking to our hearts directly not through a book."

Then why does Ephesians state to speak to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord? The word of God richly dwell in you found in Colossians goes along with Psalms 1 and Joshua 1.

I've seen plenty of people prepare sermons without preparation. Those sermons tend to be the worst usually.

New testament command is to study to shew thyself approved. We don't need to study and prepare?

Your stating John 20:22 for the first blessing and then your stating Acts 2:3 for the second blessing. The problem is John 20:22 is before the cross.

Wow, John 20:22 is before the cross? John 20:22 happened after Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected. The disciples saw the resurrected Christ with their own eyes and believed in him. Hence they were born again. So Jesus breathed on them and gave the Holy Spirit to them. If the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit in John 20:22 then it makes Jesus a liar. Acts 2 is the 2nd time the disciples received the Holy Spirit with Power as Jesus said in Acts 1:8. Hence they were able to be a living witness for Jesus after Pentecost. They had boldness which was lacking until 2nd blessing.

Again, I believe in 2nd blessing and it is scriptural. But I am not dogmatic about it and not willing to fight for it. I have no problem with someone who does not want to believe in 2nd blessing. I have no problem in believing someone who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in their first blessing itself. I also believe in continuous filling of the Holy Spirit. Please stop questioning me as if I am a person who is against one time blessing. Normally Christians who believe in 2nd blessing like me are against all other belief, but I am NOT. As long as a person has the power to be a witness to Christ both externally and internally, I have no problem with their belief. Hence I have no problem with Luther. You seem to not read my posts fully and quick to jump into conclusions.

Fortunately, I doubt men like Luther "needed" to understand the doctrine before it was a reality. God is faithful. Just because you don't understand the exact mechanism of conversation before you are saved doesn't mean you won't get saved. It just means you don't understand what is happening to the greatest degree it can be understood.

This is a very good point. I own 2 cars but honestly I do not know the mechanism of Cars, but that does not mean I cannot drive a car! The same way a person may not understand how Holy Spirit works and how God can fill them with the Holy Spirit, but they can still be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luther was raised by God with a particular purpose of bringing people back to Bible. God needed an imbalance man to solve the imbalance in the Christendom at Luther's time. But that does not mean everything that Luther believed is true. John the Baptist was sent by God to point people to Christ but that does not mean John had complete understanding of Christ. He ended up doubting Christ in prison.

Hi Sree,

………John 20:22 happened after Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected. The disciples saw the resurrected Christ with their own eyes and believed in him. Hence they were born again. So Jesus breathed on them and gave the Holy Spirit to them. If the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit in John 20:22 then it makes Jesus a liar. Acts 2 is the 2nd time the disciples received the Holy Spirit with Power as Jesus said in Acts 1:8. Hence they were able to be a living witness for Jesus after Pentecost. They had boldness which was lacking until 2nd blessing.

What do you say to what I said to you in my post to you in the following thread (posted on 2021/2/7 2:46):

SEEKING THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=63813&forum=35

Hence they were born again.

Where in scripture is that written?

And, I ask again, "So when was Thomas born again?"
Please give scripture, not your assumption.

If the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit in John 20:22 then it makes Jesus a liar.

Is this the indwelling Spirit or a "sign” re: John 20:30?

They had boldness which was lacking until 2nd blessing.

Is the indwelling Holy Spirit a Spirit without power? Is there another Holy Spirit that has power that comes as a "Second Blessing”?

Blessings

"Wow, John 20:22 is before the cross? John 20:22 happened after Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected."

Ok I stand corrected on that. Technically your right it happened after the cross but Jesus did not ascend up at that time so that the Holy Spirit could come down. What I said still holds its just my wording was incorrect.

The Holy Spirit was given for the first time in a general sense to the church in the book of Acts. We are not the eleven disciples who saw the resurrected Christ and he breathed on us. Again its still before he ascended up into heaven. That is not the experience that a Christian should be expecting now.

Even the use of the term second/third blessing signfies something of permanence as if you have the boldness for good. This is not what you see in the book of Acts. Also you can be right with God one day and the next day sin and be dry.

Acts 4:27-31 - 27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

"But I am not dogmatic about it and not willing to fight for it. I have no problem with someone who does not want to believe in 2nd blessing."

Now you sure about that? :D

And, I ask again, "So when was Thomas born again?"
Please give scripture, not your assumption.

If your reasoning for rejecting John 20:22 is the absence of Thomas then you are free to believe it. I just consider it a poor reasoning. I believe I already gave you an answer in the other thread. You are free to believe what you want.

Is the indwelling Holy Spirit a Spirit without power? Is there another Holy Spirit that has power that comes as a "Second Blessing”?

I consider this a valid question. I can explain my understanding further here.
Holy Spirit is the same person whom we receive when we are born again. It is the measure of the Holy Spirit that makes the difference.

When I was born again, I could clearly sense the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life, to bring me to repentance and produce a desire in me to hate sin. But I was still powerless to fight sin. I was also powerless to confess Christ. Since I came from a Hindu faith, I had to face persecution for my belief. I was scared of persecution and kept my faith as secret as possible.

But when God baptized me with His Holy Spirit, I overnight got the power to witness Christ boldly. I openly confessed to everyone that I am a Christian. I was still unprepared for persecution and it scared me, but it did not keep me from being a bold witness. I was also able to overcome sins which I could never overcome in the past. Bible became a different book.

So it was the same Holy Spirit who was working in me when I was born again and it was the same holy spirit working in me after the Baptism of Holy Spirit, but the measure was different.

I know you will ask me for scripture as personal experience is of no worth for most people here. Let us take the picture of the water from the temple that Ezekiel saw. But in God’s eyes it is our life that matters more than our theological understanding. Hence I always put my personal experience ahead.

Ezekiel 47-3:3 When the man went out toward the east with a line in his hand, he measured a thousand cubits, and he led me through the water, water reaching the ankles. 4 Again he measured a thousand and led me through the water, water reaching the knees. Again he measured a thousand and led me through the water, water reaching the hips. 5 Again he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not wade across, because the water had risen, enough water to swim in, a river that could not be crossed by wading.

There were different levels of water that Ezekiel measured here. At Ankle level, knee level, hip level and finally flowing as river. When the water level raised to be like a river, Ezekiel was no longer having his foot on the ground. He was lifted up and carried by the current of water. The same way when God baptizes us with his Holy Spirit our feet is lifted up to live a heavenly life. It is the same water but Ezekiel's experience was different.

Jesus too used similar words to explain the infilling of the Holy Spirit. He spoke in John 4:14 about wells of living water and then in John 7:28 about rivers of living water. It is the same living water but in different measures. But as mentioned in both the places we need to hunger and thirst for the Holy Spirit. Just being content with our powerless life will not help.

Thank you, Sree, for your reply.

If your reasoning for rejecting John 20:22 is the absence of Thomas then you are free to believe it. I just consider it a poor reasoning.

Is making a fact out of an assumption acceptable?

So it was the same Holy Spirit who was working in me when I was born again and it was the same holy spirit working in me after the Baptism of Holy Spirit, but the measure was different.

So, your baptism (meaning, immersion) of the Holy Spirit (which you call "Second Blessing”) is the same baptism (meaning, immersion) of the indwelling Holy Spirit (when you were born again) but in a different measure.

In my post in the other thread, I gave scripture to support my belief that the Holy Spirit that came upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost was the indwelling Holy Spirit received for the first time. The indwelling Holy Spirit was manifested in them in great measure and the proclamation of the Gospel in the world started with mighty power.

Here is a helpful one that clears up much misunderstandings;

http://swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/christ/Torrey/BWTHS/The%20Baptism%20with%20the%20Holy%20Spirit.pdf

Hi Fletcher,

I think I had gone through that one by R.A. Torrey multiple times. Also books by others such as Finney. Just looking again quickly through that pdf link he is using Acts 1 for building his doctrine.

The disciple were told to wait and they waited 10 days to get the Holy Spirit. Jesus ministry after he was resurrected was 40 days and the disciples waited 10 days. That gives you 50 days until the day of pentecost. The waiting was in relation to the day of pentecost. I just cannot see how a teaching on this subject can be based off of Acts 1 and how that would apply to Christians today?

Actually nevermind I take that back he is against waiting. I'm reading it through it again.

No worries:)

Hope that is helpful,.. brother Torrey has several writings on Holy Spirit.

Speaking for myself,... I didn’t ask for it but was utterly and completely shattered earlier the same day before I received Him 🙏🏻

My initial question was
Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

I asked this question to address those among us who long for it, who are powerless, timid, lacking Christian virtue and are sick and tired of being defeated and fruitless. I will pray for them.

There are people who have not received Him but have an intellectual ascent to it. It is possible to reason much about it and still be in the dark.

"It is better to have Him and know not what to call it than to know how to call it and do not have Him."
B.H.Clendennen

Lets put behind all these discussions on Baptism of the Holy Spirit, 2nd blessing, continuous infilling of the Holy Spirit etc. As these topics are very sensitive to people here. Lets get to practical aspects of our faith.

Jesus clearly said in Acts 1:8 that there is a power to be received when a person receives the Holy Spirit. A power to be witness to Jesus. A power that makes our very being (living) a witness to Christ.

Now recently I heard a women saying that her husband is struggling with Pornography. He is in tears about his sin and acknowledging it with his wife but finds himself powerless against temptation.

Now should this person not seek power from high based on Acts 1:8? Or should we shut him out saying no more power is available as God stopped working that way?

This is where I find the danger of ignoring the power of the Holy Spirit.

Can we just agree not to argue and discuss this like grown men?

I only say that because I would like to hear more about it. Like I have said, this has been on my mind lately.

Perhaps you can share instances in which the power of the Lord worked in you or in another, as a means of encouragement?

I believe people in the Old Testament were filled with the Holy Spirit as well. John the Baptist was, "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." Luke 1:15 So was his mother Elizabeth. Remember this is before the cross and before Pentecost.

At Pentecost the purpose was a general outpouring on Jews as well as Gentiles.

I think there is much confusion on this topic because Satan is afraid of people who are filled with the Holy Spirit, so he muddies the waters as much as he can. I don't believe a person can be filled slowly or gradually; every time the Bible addresses this topic it is always a sudden thing.

We cannot be filled if we are not first emptied. For me this meant throwing away my Xbox, and games. Throwing away basketball cards worth money. D and D stuff, magic cards etc. these were my idols before coming to Christ. Price in the 1000 range.

I wrote down every sin i had committed that came to my mind. I had at least ten pages! I repented to Christ for each sin in tears claiming His blood. When I finished I threw the sheets away.

I still had sins that though I repented did not feel gone from my life yet so I spent time calling and repenting of different sins I had committed as a kid to different people. Witnessing to them after apologizing. Stealing, gave my friend back his money, lies, picking on one kid bullied more then me at school, disrespecting my parents, etc. and even other terrible sins. The Holy Spirit is very thorough with us, and until you do what has to be done you will not be filled.

After this while Sammie was driving me around to get me baptized:) precious lady! I was at home one night and received the baptism as I was in our bonus room worshiping our Lord. The events are personal of that night. Then later at work as I said earlier I received the prayer language.

Bottom line, we have to repent of all our sins, throw away any idols, and call and apologize to people we have sinned against as God leads us, [or that is how God had me do it.] It is my up most belief that until this is done to satisfaction in God’s eyes no one will receive the baptism.

This is my experience, I will pray it helps in your search brother.

Hi Nigel,

I don't believe a person can be filled slowly or gradually; every time the Bible addresses this topic it is always a sudden thing.

Christian life is a growth from babes to mature sons of God (1 Pet. 2:2, Heb. 5:13, Eph. 4:13-16).

A mature man in Christ is one who is filled with the fullness of Christ (Eph. 4:13).

All fullness of God dwells in Christ (Col. 2:9) and we are filled up to all the fullness of God when Christ dwells in our hearts THROUGH FAITH (Eph. 3:17-19).

We are not filled up to the fullness of Christ all at once. FAITH GROWS.

2 Thess. 1:3 ”“
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, BECAUSE YOUR FAITH GROWS EXCEEDINGLY, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other,

The supreme work of the Holy Spirit in us is to make Christ in us a reality.

John 14:20 ”“
In that day (comment: the day the Holy Spirit comes to live in us) you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

We are NOT filled with the fullness of Christ all at once.

Eph. 4:13 ”“
"UNTIL we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.”

The supreme work of the Holy Spirit is to form Christ in us and fill us with the glory of Christ.

We are not transformed into the image of Christ all at once.

2 Cor. 3:18 ”“
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image FROM GLORY TO GLORY, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

We are EITHER filled with self and flesh OR filled with Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Can anyone say that they were TOTALLY emptied of all self and flesh and FULLY filled with Christ and the Holy Spirit SUDDENLY?

Definitely not me. I press on to gain Christ (Phil. 3:7-14) in the full assurance that the Holy Spirit is in me.

Blessings

Hello Jade,

you are confusing the baptism of the Holy Spirit with sanctification. These are 2 different things.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a reward for a perfect Christian life, it is not a state of maturity we achieve.

It is for babes in Christ, a basic step that completes our conversion - not our salvation. It was the normative step in the early church that after they repented towards the Father, believed in the Son, and were baptised by immersion in water they would receive the baptism of Jesus, with is the the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Conversion is just the beginning and sanctification is a work that only the Holy Spirit can do and it goes on for our whole time on earth. For this we need the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it is not an option. It is not for an elite group, but for every saint.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit does not automatically make us super-holy, but it provides the basics for holy living and fruit-bearing.
The Corinthians had the baptism of the Holy Spirit by and large, as Paul attested it, but they were lazy and backslidden, because they were messed up by false teachers. So Paul had to do a lot of work and managed to lead them to repentance.

Sanctification puts us under obligation to apply the scriputures to our life and the Holy Spirit will help us mightily if we only allow him.

"The baptism of the Holy Spirit does not automatically make us super-holy, but it provides the basics for holy living and fruit-bearing.” ministering amongst our brethren and proclaiming Jesus to the unsaved through the Spirits empowering! Thank you brother. I was praying, seeing if I should respond.

Jade you are right concerning maturity in Christ it is a lifetime endeavor! Even the apostle Paul said he had not reached his goal yet in maturity.

Power to minister comes from the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit’s empowering, we have powerless preachers, preaching powerless messages, creating powerless people through out Christendom, with little results accomplished in the pulpit, and within their own lives.

Added, After Baptism in the Spirit, it is as we surrender to the Holy Spirit that Gods power goes forth. God’s direction, God’s will, God’s work. It’s never us, it is all Him. Surrender, surrender, surrender.

I think we need to be a bit careful here that we don't get too dogmatic, that could be a bit misleading
Here is something about Corrie ten Boom, some of you might have heard it already.
I believe there were several factors that enabled her to get through such difficult times.

"If you are reproached for being Christ’s followers, that is a great privilege, for you can be sure that God’s Spirit of glory is resting upon you.” Closing her Bible, Corrie proceeded to relate a conversation that took place between her and her father when she was a little girl.
"Daddy,” she had said one day, "I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a martyr for Jesus Christ.”
"Tell me,” her father wisely responded, "when you take a train trip from Haarlem to Amsterdam, when do I give you the money for the ticket? Three weeks before?”
"No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train.”
"That is right,” he replied, "and so it is with God’s strength. Our wise Father in heaven knows when you are going to need things too. Today you do not need the strength to be a martyr. But as soon as you are called upon for the honor of facing death for Jesus, He will supply the strength you need””just in time.”

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
Romans 11:36

Hi Narrowpath,

2 Thess. 2:13-14 (Young’s Literal Translation) ”“
And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth, to which He did call you through our good news, to the acquiring of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ;

you are confusing the baptism of the Holy Spirit with sanctification. These are 2 different things.

The baptism (immersion) of the Holy Spirit and sanctification are inextricably intertwined. The more immersed we are in the Holy Spirit, the less immersed we will be in flesh, and the more sanctified we will be.

Let us understand what "baptism” is.

The word "baptize” is simply transliterated from the Greek word "baptizo” in our English Bibles. It is not translated.

What does the Greek word "baptizo” mean?

Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary gives this definition:

"Baptizo, ‘to baptize,’ primarily a frequentative form of bapto, ‘to dip,’ was used among the Greeks to signify the dyeing of a garment, or the drawing of water by dipping a vessel into another, etc. Plutarchus uses it of the drawing wine by dipping the cup into the bowl.”

My comment:

In the dyeing of the garment:
(1) The garment is immersed in the dye
(2) The dye saturates (or fills) the garment and the garment loses its own colour and takes on the colour of the dye.

In the drawing of wine by dipping the cup into the bowl:
(1) The cup is immersed in the wine in the bowl
(2) The wine in the bowl fills the cup. The EMPTY cup is filled with the wine.

Therefore, when we are "baptized” with the Holy Spirit:

(1)
We are immersed in the Holy Spirit.

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being” (Acts 17:28).

(2)
The Holy Spirit fills us.

We are God’s temple in which the Holy Spirit lives (1 Cor. 3:16).
The Holy Spirit is in us as a "well of water springing up to eternal life” (John 4:14).
The Holy Spirit shall flow like rivers of living water from our innermost being (John 7:38-39).
We are joined to the Lord and is one spirit with Him (1 Cor. 6:17).

The Holy Spirit glorifies Christ.

John 16:14 ”“
He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Therefore, when the Holy Spirit fills us, we will lose our "old man” and become the "new man” in Christ. As the garment takes on the colour of the dye in which it is immersed, we will be conformed to the image of Christ.

The baptism (immersion) in Jesus’ name is simply this to me: "you in Me, and I in you (John 14:20)”. The baptism (immersion) in the Holy Spirit makes the baptism (immersion) in Jesus’ name a reality in us.

Filling also needs emptying. The measure of the Holy Spirit we can have in us is also dependent on how much we have emptied ourselves of self/flesh and the desires of the world.

We are transformed into the image of Christ not all at once but from glory to glory (2 Cor. 3:18). And like the garment that is immersed in the dye, the measure in we are conformed to the image of Christ will be the same measure in which we are immersed (baptized) in the Holy Spirit.

Sree’s illustration is appropriate.

First, "ankle-deep”, then "knee-deep”, then "waist-deep”, and finally "a river that could not be forded” (Ezek. 47).

Sanctification puts us under obligation to apply the scriptures to our life and the Holy Spirit will help us mightily if we only allow him.

I don’t agree that "the Holy Spirit will help us mightily”. We must give up both our carnal and religious self and surrender totally to the Holy Spirit to work in us. Sanctification is a complete work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is in front of us to lead, not behind us to push us and help us.

Christ in us is our sanctification and this is made a reality in us by our immersion (baptism) in the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 1:30 ”“
But of Him YOU ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, WHO BECAME FOR US wisdom from God””and righteousness AND SANCTIFICATION and redemption””

Someone said:
"He is most holy who has most of Christ within, and joys most fully in the finished work,”

I agree.

I would also like to ask you:
Is the Holy Spirit a Person or just a Power to you?

Blessings

Thank you, William.

Just a question:

Power to minister comes from the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Is this the indwelling Holy Spirit?

Blessings

Jade I enjoyed reading all this! I believe you already know my answer based on previous posts sister. Also if I sounded dogmatic brother it was unintentional. I’m certain there are differences in most of our walks concerning this. The way God led me could be quite different then the way he leads you!

I don’t have the correct terminology, or terms like many of you sorry. So I’ve really got to watch my wording! However I do want everyone to know intimately God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, and each of us to have plenty of oil for the days ahead.

Blessings

I enjoy reading the different posts, lots of good contributions !
In my post I was just trying to add a bit of balance to the overall discussion, not about specific comments.

Billy, I appreciate your contributions, glad you share some testimonies and your zeal for the Lord !

Blessings
Markus

Hi William,

However I do want everyone to know intimately God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, and each of us to have plenty of oil for the days ahead.

Amen.

Oh Christ, He is the fountain,
The deep, sweet well of love;
The streams on earth I’ve tasted,
More deep I’ll drink above.
-- A. R. Cousin

Boldness to be a living witness of Christ and actually facing the persecution are 2 different things.

When I came to Christ from a Hindu faith, I did not have any courage to tell my friends and family that I am a Christian. I used to hide it from my friends that I am going to Church on Sundays. But when God baptized me with his Holy Spirit, I was no longer hiding my faith. I was an open Christian. I got boldness to witness Christ.

But when I faced persecution, I had to still trust God to give me utterance. For example there was one particular instance in which I was surrounded by Hindu Priests who were trying to brain wash me and ridicule me for leaving my Hindu faith. Their point was it is a great thing to be born in a Hindu priestly line. To give up that privilege for anything is stupidity. In situations like this I was totally unprepared and sought God for grace.

One of my coworkers in Christ had this testimony. When he came to Christ from his Hindu faith, he used to cover the bible with a plastic paper so that no one knew he was carrying a Bible with him. But when he received the Baptism of Holy Spirit, he threw the plastic paper and carried it openly. He still needed utterance from God when people questioned him.

Hi Sree,

Do you know what a strawman is?

https://www.thoughtco.com/straw-man-fallacy-1692144

My post was not in response to you are to anyone else here. I just shared my personal experience on boldness as someone here was interested in personal testimonies. I know you are a scripture only guy and personal testimonies are of no value to you!
If anyone needs to know strawman argument it is you, there are plenty of stawman arguments in your posts. It is good that you finally came to realize what a strawman argument is.

"My post was not in response to you are to anyone else here."

That would be a strawman. :)

Again you are proving your accusing nature of brothern by misquoting me and copying only a part of my post. I pray that you will soon realize your evil mocking nature and repent from it. It ture in the end times mockers will raise.

Sree many of us appreciate your input and personal testimonies brother! It is a blessing from God to hear from other brethren concerning their walks with Christ and God the Fathers hand in their life. I’m certain the early church had such talks, building each other up, etc, when they were together breaking bread, celebrating our Lords supper, and praising Christ:)

Blessings in Christ brother Markus, thank you for your input! Your word was a blessing. I see as the Holy Spirit moves me forward in to sanctification into the likeness of Christ that we tend to want to go to far to the left or right as we follow, instead of going straight ahead in the middle of the path.

Hello Jade,

I understand all that. My OP was not about sanctification but about a distinctive event in the life of a convert where they are being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Of course, the Holy Spirit is a person and he will assist us in sanctification to the degree we surrender to the Lord.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is often accompanied with speaking in tongues, prophesy and spontaneus worship.
This is a glorious event I pray everyone on SI will encounter.

After that event the believer must take care to live a life of continous surrender to Christ. This is our part, God calls for it but we must act upon it. The Spirit works mightly in the surrendered believer to bring forth spiritual fruit and good works will follow naturally, because they are Gods prepared works, so no glory for us to take.

It is possible to have experienced the baptism of the Spirit and make little or no progress in sanctification, like the Corinthians.

Have you been filled with the Holy Spirit since you believed? Can you point to an event in your life? Have you ever asked Jesus to fill with you the Spirit

Lukas 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Obiviously, not all believers had this experience, otherwise we would not have so many instances where the apostles or Aquila and Priscilla queried the believers in throughout Acts.

The question is still out, and every believer should answer this question for themself. No one should miss out on it.