Forgiving your brother

I was having this discussion with a brother in my Church. I am more and more leading towards this belief now.

Jesus commanded us to forgive our brothers and sisters in Christ (other believes), only when they repent.

Luke 17:3 - If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.

Now if a brother is unwilling to repent then?

Matthew 18:15 - Now if your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that on the [n]testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be confirmed. 17 And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, he is to be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

The above verse is not something that we can do if we want, it is something that we are commanded to do. So if a brother sins against us we are commanded to go and confront him. We are not supposed to just forgive and forget. We are not even supposed to forgive him/her.

But if it is an unbeliever then we are supposed to forgive them without any requirement for them to repent, because they do not know what they are doing, they are in darkness. Jesus himself forgave those who crucified him saying they did not know what they were doing.

We are commanded to over our brothers and sisters more than our love for neighbors (John 13:24). At the same time we are commanded to forgive our brothers only if they repent, else we need to confornt them for their sins against us.

If there are people who agree with this then I have more questions in the line of such thinking.

Sree,

I see where you are going with this; however, forgiveness is not commanded, ONLY, upon repentance. There are plenty of other Scriptures that command you to forgive, even if the offender has not repented.

Matthew 6:12-15, 18:21-35, Luke 6:37, Luke 23:34 (Jesus forgave and no one repented), and that isn't even an exhaustive list.

You should deal with a sinning brother. That should happen. But if you are dealing with a sinning brother with a heart full of unforgiveness, you are only a servant throttling another saying, "pay me what you owe me!"

Notice in those passages the order of forgiveness--you forgive, the God forgives you.

I just don’t see how I could pray the prayer Christ taught us to pray wholeheartedly or honestly if I held back forgiveness from anyone, brother or unbeliever.

"Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.”

I would seriously fast and seek our Lord. if I held an elder position, before administering the final steps.

I just don’t see how I could pray the prayer Christ taught us to pray wholeheartedly or honestly if I held back forgiveness from anyone, brother or unbeliever.

"Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.”

I would seriously fast and seek our Lord. if I held an elder position, before administering the final steps.

Very good point brother William.
Disclaimer, I have not completely made my approval of the point of this discussion, but I have started leading towards the point of our discussion. The reason I have posted this here is, I am trying to find reasons to support or against this line of thinking. So all logical discussion is welcome here.

Now I have already thought through our Lord's prayer in connection with forgiveness!

Here is my answer, our Lord thought us to pray this line "forgive our sins as we have forgiven our debtors". So the believers who have repented, I have forgiven them. So we are asking our Lord to forgive us as we have forgiven those who have repented. We too come to our Lord with a repentence. So our Lord, who is our elder brother, will also forgive our sins as we have forgiven the sins of our repented brothers.

The Parable that Jesus told in Matt 18:23, the Master is forgiving the slave when he repents and asks for mercy. The master expects the slave to show the same mercy to his own slave who also asks for mercy but he did not show mercy. So the concept of forgiveness in that parable is to forgive those who ask for forgiveness. The whole parable is an answer that Jesus gave to the question that Peter asked about how to forgive our brothers (Matt 18:21)!

I see where you are going with this; however, forgiveness is not commanded, ONLY, upon repentance. There are plenty of other Scriptures that command you to forgive, even if the offender has not repented.

Notice in those passages the order of forgiveness--you forgive, the God forgives you.

Agreed, our God forgives us when we repent so we too forgive our brothers when they repent. That is th point of Matthew 18:23 parable on forgiveness. To show mercy when our brothers ask for one.

You should deal with a sinning brother. That should happen. But if you are dealing with a sinning brother with a heart full of unforgiveness, you are only a servant throttling another saying, "pay me what you owe me!"

Very good point. The example that came to our mind is how Paul is dealing with the brother who lived in Adultery in the church of Corinthians. In 1 Cor 5, he judged him already and put him out of Church into the hands of Satan.

3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and [d]I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided [e]to turn such a person over to Satan for the destruction of his [f]body, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the [g]Lord.

This believer sinned against the Church by bringing a bad reputation to the Church. So here Paul clearly judged the brother and not forgiven him. He is also not asking the Church to forgive him. How do I know he is not asking the Church to forgive him? Answer is in 2 Cor 2:7.

so that on the other hand, you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a person might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him.

Paul is asking the Church to forgive this brother because he has repented from his sins. So in the first letter he judged him but in the 2nd letter he is appealing to forgive him as he has repented. So no forgiveness until he repents. He did not ask the Church to confront him with forgiveness!

Again I am inviting a fruitful discussion here, I am still not made up my mind, but willing to listen to all possible arguments for and against this topic.

I think the problem here is how we are defining what forgiveness is.

So, sree, what does "forgiveness" mean regarding one person to another?

Thanks!

//The above verse is not something that we can do if we want, it is something that we are commanded to do. So if a brother sins against us we are commanded to go and confront him. We are not supposed to just forgive and forget. We are not even supposed to forgive him/her.//

We are not to be offended in the first place. Thus there is nothing to forgive.

https://www.thenarrowpath.com/audio/topical-lectures/individual-topical-teachings/06_0000_Refuse_to_be_Offended.mp3

lol....I remember this discussion. If my brother punches me in the face and I say "I am not offended" and let him continue doing that, then there is a problem. There is a problem with him and a problem with me.

Sree is right that we need to confront the brother for things like that.

Now, Biblically, the principle is "love covers a multitude of sins." I don't correct every mistake everyone does--especially unintentional ones--because I love them and I want to show grace and mercy. If a brother does offend me (which happens), then I need to address it with them. Elsewise, a root of bitterness will form.

There also the principle of "why not rather be wronged" given by Paul--regarding suing other believers before unbelievers.

These principles take wisdom to apply.

Yet:

I have a feeling the reason why so little care and concern is given by the church as a whole to people aborting their children, the prevelance of pornography in our country, the incredibly prominent sex-trafficking industry in our country, the vulgar humor that is allowed, the sex-crazed TV shows, the horrifically promiscuous education given to children, the codification of no-fault divorce, the materialism, etc, etc, etc that we see even in our own midst is because a bunch of Christians are walking around "not offended."

I think we need to be more offended at these things.

Being offended is not on the same par as physical attack.

Being offended is illogical. If the offense was unintended, then why in the world should you be offended? If the offense IS intended, why give the offender the satisfaction of what they are looking for?

I am trying to think if Jesus ever showed offense for something done or said to Him. He defended His Father’s honor on occasion but I think he took personal offenses with a grain of salt- even on the cross.

Jesus usually was the one doing the offending! HAHA

Yes those Pharisees and Sadducees were so touchy.

Hello Sree,

Thanks for the stimulating question. Have you considered the verse in Mark where Jesus said "and if you stand praying and remember that you have something against your brother, forgive."?

As I was pondering the thread, this verse came to mind and I do not think it has been considered yet, unless I overlooked it.

mak

the verse is Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins

Thanks for the stimulating question. Have you considered the verse in Mark where Jesus said "and if you stand praying and remember that you have something against your brother, forgive."?

As I was pondering the thread, this verse came to mind and I do not think it has been considered yet, unless I overlooked it.

I belive the base verse is Matt 5:23 - 23 Therefore, if you are presenting your [n]offering at the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your [o]offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your [p]offering.

So here Jesus is telling us to reconcile with our brother if we know that he has been offended by us. So this is the responsibility of every believer to make sure they do not offend their fellow brothers. A brother who missed this opportunity and has willfully offended his fellow brother is living in Sin. Instead of just forgiving him plainly we are commanded to confront him first. The order is so clearl in Luke 17.

Luke 17 - 3:- 3 Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

We are to forgive our brothers only when they repent. So there is no forgiving while we rebuke them.

We all see this as a harsh treatment of a fellow brother by not forgiving them. But see this way, we are more concerned about their eternal well being than their earthly rebuke. Hence we are prepared to rebuke our brother of their sins and then forgive them when they repent. We are actually showing our brother that they have missed to obey Mattew 5:23, hence they cannot come into the presence of God.

Mark 11:25, is also in the same context as how our father in heaven forgives us. He forgives us when we repent, so we should also be willing to forgive our brothers when they repent.

Dear Sree,

It seems that you are almost persuaded already, which is not an issue with me at all.

When I read Jesus’s words in Mark 11:25 -I see that I am to forgive on the spot anything I have against anyone” . I certainly appreciate the relationship you have brought forth between repentance and forgiveness.

I will take Jesus at His words that if while I am praying, anything that comes to my mind about anyone who has sinned against me in any way - I am to forgive them before I continue in prayer.

That is how I understand our Lord’s words spoken here since he is speaking about the prayer of faith.

Mak

I think I am in agreement with Mak.

Forgiveness is something we do for ourselves. Jesus did not require the soldiers crucifying him to repent before he forgave them.

Requiring repentance seems to obviate the need to forgive. I mean if someone comes back crawling with tears saying they are sorry it would take a monstrous person to not forgive them.

It is tougher to forgive before there is any repentance. Even tougher is not to be offended in the first place.

Sree, you seem to be conflating forgiveness and fellowship. I can forgive an unrepentant offender but that does not mean I must fellowship with him until he changes his ways.

Havok wrote:
//I have a feeling the reason why so little care and concern is given by the church as a whole to people aborting their children, the prevelance of pornography in our country, the incredibly prominent sex-trafficking industry in our country, the vulgar humor that is allowed, the sex-crazed TV shows, the horrifically promiscuous education given to children, the codification of no-fault divorce, the materialism, etc, etc, etc that we see even in our own midst is because a bunch of Christians are walking around "not offended."

I think we need to be more offended at these things.//

I am talking about personal offenses, not the broad evil at large in the world. It is obvious we are to hate evil.

Sree,

I think Mark 11:25, the way that David acted toward Saul, and even several of the Psalms are proof in the pudding that God expects us to forgive, even without repentance on the other party's side.

Let me ask you this: what would happen if the brother never repented and you never saw them again? Do you get to harbor unforgiveness in your heart for all of eternity? Do you get to remain angry at them forever? I think the unanimous testimony of Scriptures answers that.

I mean think about this: how many times have people on sermon index offended one another, unintentionally? It's happened to me. I have forgiven. I thank God that, it seems, if I have offended anyone, they've forgiven me.

Let me ask you this: what would happen if the brother never repented and you never saw them again? Do you get to harbor unforgiveness in your heart for all of eternity? Do you get to remain angry at them forever? I think the unanimous testimony of Scriptures answers that.

You and I and most posters here agree that we are commanded to confornt our brothers when they sin against us. The order of this conforting in Luke 17:4 is clearly saying to forgive only when the brother repents. If he does not repent then he is like an unbeliever to me, I forgive him just like how I forgive any unbeliever who has sinned against me but I do not consider him a brother. In the context of the Church, such a person is put out.

As person who came to Jesus from another faith, I have sufferred perseuction from the hands of unbelievers. But God's grace, I was able to forgive them all instantenously, like how Jesus forgave those Romans who crucified him. But a brother who is doing evil to us is different.

The subject of this post is forgiving our brothers not unbelievers so we cannot bring verses into picture where Jesus spoke about forgiveness in general. When it comes to forgiving our brothers who sinned against us, Jesus is clearly asking us to forgive only when they repent.

Edited out everything that was very pointed and argumentative, which was the whole post.

Sree,

If you've already read my previous post, I do apologize. Let me ask you to read this article:

https://www.gotquestions.org/withholding-forgiveness.html

And see if you agree with what it is saying. If it is, I can continue this discussion, now having common definitions.

Thanks

I think the problem here is how we are defining what forgiveness is.

So, sree, what does "forgiveness" mean regarding one person to another?

This is a very good question. I am still thinking how best I can answer this question.

Heb 8:12 - For I will be merciful toward their wrongdoings,
And their sins I will no longer remember

God cannot forget our sins, nor can we forget the sins that people did against us. But when God forgives our sins, he chooses not to remember our sins. He looks at us as if we have never sinned (Justification).

So if we are to forgive a brother who has hurt us then we should choose not to remember their sins against us. If we are choosing not to remember them then how can we confront them of their sins against us like how Jesus commanded us in Luke 17:4 and in Matthew 18?

Like I said before we see the condition of unforgiveness as a negative thing alone. See the positive side of it, you are able to win a brother who has sinned against you. If he never repents he is going to suffer loss. So it is better to confront them than just trying to be mister nice guy!

Your logic is flawed because 1) you are supplying additional meaning to the text that isn't there.

I am not supplying any additional meaning. In the words of Jesus - "If he repents forgive him". There is a condition for forgiveness, repentance. God also forgives the sins of a believer only when he confesses and repents from it. Else just because a person was once saved he is not forgiven for ever!

1 John 1:9 - 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

I am not a OSAS person but if it hurts anyone's OSAS belief then I am not responsible. That is not my intention here.

2) you are ignoring other examples of texts found in the Scriptures

Other examples of scriptures are not in the context of forgiving a brother. In the context of forgiving a brother, Jesus always insisted that they repent.

3)you are creating a false dichotomy between the love and grace a believer shows to unbelievers vs believers. If someone claims to be a brother, I get to treat them worse than an unbeliever? That makes no sense at all.

I already answered this question in my original post. Jesus commanded us to love our brothers above unbelievers (our neighbors) (John 13:34). So when we love someone with such a high love, there is also a responsibility that comes with it. We are supposed to confront them when they sin against us. We are not supposed to just forgive and forget. True love points the mistakes and not just covers things up to give a false impression.

I did say all those things, but, have determined that posting that was definitely not a good way to handle this. So, I edited my original post. If you don't mind, read that article, because I think it reflects what your line of thinking is. If it does reflect your line of thinking, then I will be able to more accurately discuss this.

Yes I read through the article you have posted. It is a good one. It slightly differs from my view, it says we should be ready to forgive everyone who is willing to repent. That is what it means when we say "forgive our sins as we have forgiven others".

Here is the summary from the article -

While we must not harbor bitterness in our hearts (Hebrews 12:15) or repay evil for evil (1 Peter 3:9), we should make sure we follow God’s lead and not extend forgiveness to the unrepentant. In short, we should withhold forgiveness from those who do not confess and repent; at the same time, we should extend the offer of forgiveness and maintain an attitude of readiness to forgive.

Stephen, as he was being stoned to death, illustrates the principle of forgiveness. Echoing Jesus’ words from the cross, Stephen prays, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them” (Acts 7:60; cf. Luke 23:34). These words show a definite willingness to forgive, but they do not indicate a completed transaction of forgiveness. Stephen simply prayed that God would forgive his murderers. Stephen held no bitterness, and, when and if his murderers repented, he wished them to be forgiven””what a wonderful example of loving our enemies and praying for those who persecute us (Matthew 5:44).

Excellent! Now I have some common ground to work from.

Would you say that it was wrong for someone to forgive a brother and YET still take them through church discipline as Matthew 18 describes?

Would you say that it was wrong for someone to forgive a brother and YET still take them through church discipline as Matthew 18 describes?

I apologize for not responding earlier, I am running busy these days hence not having time to post as much as I want to.

No I would not consider it wrong. But I consider it impossible for someone who is really forgiven to be disciplined or even confronted. Like the article that you pointed out, we are commanded to be ready to forgive anyone who hurt us when they repent. But when we have already forgiven someone how can we bring to remembrance the past and confront them for it?

Okay, I see what you're saying. So here is another questions, what does forgiveness do, exactly? What is being conveyed from one person to another when forgiveness occurs? Is it spiritual, legal, transactional, etc? Thanks!

Brother Sreeram,

I just had a question regarding your post...would the refusal to extend forgiveness apply to just any sin that a person refuses to acknowledge (such as an outburst of anger or gossiping)...or would the refusal to forgive apply more to ongoing sins that would require public repentance and restoration?

Thank you brother!

Brother Sreeram,

I just had a question regarding your post...would the refusal to extend forgiveness apply to just any sin that a person refuses to acknowledge (such as an outburst of anger or gossiping)...or would the refusal to forgive apply more to ongoing sins that would require public repentance and restoration?

Thank you brother!

Hello Sister, in my understanding so far the refusal forgive another brother comes only when the brother sins against me. It could be an outburst of anger or a gossip that in someway involved me and caused a harm to me. Then I am required to confront the brother and forgive him if he repents. The order that Jesus showed in Matthew 18 is very clear -
1. Confront your brother
2. forgive him if he repents
3. else take one or two more brothers to confront him
4. if he is still not repenting then involve the Church. Only now it becomes public.

If the sin the brother is living in, is not affect me personally then I am not sure it falls under the current scope of discussion.

Okay, I see what you're saying. So here is another questions, what does forgiveness do, exactly? What is being conveyed from one person to another when forgiveness occurs? Is it spiritual, legal, transactional, etc? Thanks!

I think I answered this question already in this thread. I also agree with your article on the transaction part of forgiveness.
Personally when I forgive another brother, I choose not to remember their sins against me. I also look at them as if they have never sinned against me. I derive this based on Hebrews 8.

So, my question then becomes, on what basis did Jesus request the Father to forgive the sins of those who were crucifying Him?

If I am to truly follow the Scriptures, I think we've got biblical support in Christ for forgiving those who are CLEARLY not repentant, not for their sake, but for our own sake.

You will be amazed at the number of times I have told a brother "I forgive you" without them repenting and then, their immediate response is "I repent." Had the Father held those responsible for Jesus' crucifixion against them and brought swift justice against them, then a lot of people would have been killed that day. But without their repentance, Jesus forgave them, which for some (soldier who pierced his side, the thief on the cross, etc) lead to their repentance.

Remember: The kindness of God leads us to repentance.

2 cor 2;10My purpose in writing you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10 If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And if I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven it in the presence of Christ for your sake, 11 in order that Satan should not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.…,,,,, Jesus was talking about church fellowship issue which requires all of us to be repentant regarding us being able to be admitted into the fellowship this is what Paul was dealing with here ........5Now if anyone has caused grief, he has not grieved me but all of you””to some degree, not to overstate it. 6The punishment imposed on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7So instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him...........This is an issue for the elders and pastors and prophets of the particular fellowship to deal out church discipline, not for a regular Christian, we are to love your brothers and love your enemies and bless those who sin and persecute you and spitefully uses you regardless of what they do or if they repent .. tho we are commanded to not eat or fellowship with the one who has committed the sin, which is really showing them love and inducing godly sorrow which produces repentance. On a personal level we must love and forgive all those who sin against us love is forgiveness................4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, . 6Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth. 7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Havok-

Do you think Jesus was "offended” by the soldiers that crucified him or the mockers who mocked him?

TMK,

If you're talking scream-at-the-sky offended, then definitely not. If you are talking about deeply grieved, then I would image so, especially based on His response.

brothagary, thank you for that post. I think you're on the right track there.

you're welcome havok, we can see in this verse Jesus gives the mandate to the apostles, and then the apostles give it to the other elders who held the high office in the church.....john 20 ..21So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”............its really an apostolic or a high authority that is only given by God to some, namely elders who actually have christ fully formed in them so to speak, so that it is in all reality, it would be Christ in them forgiving or retaining the sins of certain individuals, we should not apply this logic as a normal Christian deals with others who have wronged or sinned against them personally. The devil will take advantage and deceive people into harboring bitterness and offense in their hearts in the name of God, or in the name of being obedient to scripture, thus hampering their walk with god and hindering their prayers

//If you are talking about deeply grieved, then I would image so, especially based on His response.//

It seems to me that Jesus asked his Father to forgive them because he himself was not offended, or had already forgiven them. But I suspect the former.

I think we are too hung up on our "right” to forgive or the necessity to forgive. After all forgiving someone has an element of pride to it. (e.g., "you really don’t deserve it because of what you did to me but I will forgive you so everyone can see what a great guy I am.”)

When Jesus told his disciples to forgive someone 77 times wasn’t he really saying "why let it bother you in the first place?”

There is definitely an element of pride in forgiveness--if one is arrogant and ungodly. Other than that, there have been many times I have forgiven someone because I had deep and abiding compassion for them. This is the nature of love in Christ--forgiving others as Christ has forgiven me.

Even Jesus was indignant from time to time concerning several things--the disciples rejecting children, the disciples wanting to call fire down from heaven and kill some Samaritans, the hindrance of worship in the Temple, the pharisees' hypocrisy, etc.

There is no way in the universe my morality can be higher than Jesus'. It would be enough that I would be like Him--which I am not. Yet, Jesus blew a bunch of opportunities to teach what you are suggesting and yet didn't. If something doesn't offend you, then that's between you and God. But as for me--I get offended by a lot of stuff and I think if I didn't, my heart would be a cold stone.

//Even Jesus was indignant from time to time concerning several things--the disciples rejecting children, the disciples wanting to call fire down from heaven and kill some Samaritans, the hindrance of worship in the Temple, the pharisees' hypocrisy, etc.//

But these were things done to others, not himself.

There is no doubt that Jesus spoke out for the innocent or poor or downtrodden- even non-hypocritical sinners. And he certainly burned with a passion for His Father's honor.

But I don’t think Jesus ever demanded that someone ask for forgiveness for something done to **him**.

I understand the point I am trying to make is somewhat foreign and against our normal way of thinking. But when I heard the teaching "Refuse to be Offended” that I linked to earlier in the thread it opened my eyes a great deal.

Jesus is God.

Every sin ever done was done against Him. "Against you and you alone, I have sinned."

Why do you think Jesus wound up on the cross, brother?

I mean that's what makes Christ dying for us while we were STILL SINNERS so amazing!

You are being purposefully obtuse, which is certainly your prerogative! No one is disputing the deity of Christ, at least not me.

But when Jesus Christ was on the earth as the Son of Man, he never insisted that anyone apologize to him or ask him directly for forgiveness, unlike many Christians today.

I didn't say you denied the deity of Christ. But, as deity, Christ endured with patience our sinfulness. You are right that He never insisted that anyone apologize. But He did demand that everone should repent, which includes that plus more.

So again, I am not suggesting you're denying the deity of Christ. I am suggesting that the position that Jesus never was offended by anything done to Him goes against every bit of Scripture that applies to Jesus as He is God manifested in the flesh--since God hates sin. Jesus expressed patience and forebearance, but ultimately, the Sacrifice He made on the cross was due to sin, making it even possible for men to repent and be saved, which He commanded. If Christ had exacted any degree of retribution, any degree of payment, any degree of justice other than the cross, He'd have destroyed the whole world in judgment. But He didn't come to destroy men's lives. He came to save them. So His patience and mercy with those around Him was grace displayed in and through Himself.

And yet, what DID Jesus do? He commanded and taught on forgiveness, which is what this thread is about. He also lived and embodied that teaching, as displayed on the cross.

Ok Havok-

It’s obvious I have failed miserably in trying to make my point.

Jesus walking around on the earth was a man- a man like you and me. He was not walking around as God in a glorified state.

As a man, he was subject to slights and insults from his fellow men. Some of these were unintentional, just like we experience. Some were intentional. He likely experienced more of these than we do. Yet he never once said that such slights and insults offended him personally, nor did he act like they did.

Of course when he preached, he commanded men to repent. But he was not talking about repenting of offenses to him personally, but to the Father. Just like today when a preacher is preaching repentance he is not talking about offenses done to him personally.

Now I realize there is a point that you keep coming back to that Jesus is God so he really is talking about himself. I’m sorry but I can’t agree in the context of his teaching and preaching. Just like when he prayed "Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” He was not praying to himself. He had already forgiven them, assuming what they did offend him. Offense is a subjective, not objective thing. You might be offended is someone casts aspersions on a friend, but it doesn’t mean the friend is offended.

Well, let us end this discussion (between us) ammicably and agree that when someone is offended, the teachings of Jesus apply regarding forgiveness.

If there is something beyond that of which I am too immature as a believer to have grasped as of yet, then the Holy Spirit, who'll lead me into all truth, will teach it to me through the testimony of the Scriptures.

Sounds good. Just for the record I don’t think you’re a immature Christian.

And I might be dead wrong.