You don't go to hell becaus of sin!

No one goes to hell because of there sins, but only for rejecting the sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross, along with His resurrection. If they have accepted That sacrifise, along with His resurrection and repent from there sins, are they saved? Yes. death is not separation from God in Hell because paul said do die is gain. death is separation of body from soul, and you choose where you go. A person doesn't goes to hell because of sin, He dies because of it, For the wages of sin is death; and if he dies in his sin, then he will go to hell. Jesus died on the cross for all people and therefor all peoples' sins, even the people who will reject His sacrifice. But that is why they go to hell, not because of sin.

I can agree on one point, that we choose where we go, in a sense. But I have to say that it is because of sin that we are promised the reward of hell. Yes the wages of sin is death, but you are taking upon a literal definition of "death". We die, because we die which roots in the original sin. Nevertheless, we die when the Soverign Lord decides that His plan for us on His earth is complete. There are consequences for every decision we make, the good, & the bad.Accepting Jesus' lordship & faith in Him & Him alone will grant us the promise of everlasting life with Him in heaven. Not accepting this gift, & continuing to live in sin is what demands a debt paid by being completely severed from the communion with God in everlasting purgatory.I believe it would be a false statement to claim "We don't go to hell because of sin." Yes one will be eternally damned if they rejected the diety of Christ & His saving message of grace, but that would only lead them to continue in sin, therefore, a price must be paid.

Yes to die is to gain, if you are living in the light of Christ Jesus.

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.There is a partial truth to what you are saying: men go to hell because they reject Jesus. However, this key pasage of Scripture teaches that the reason men reject Jesus is because they are sinners, who love their sin. Because of such, they reject Christ. Because of such, they go to hell.The wages of sin is death. In the day Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they died. Literally taking what God said, they should have dropped dead that very moment. However, in that day, when they became partakers of sin, they did die: spritually. That spiritual death manifested itself in physical death. And if you and I die physically in a state of spiritual death, you and I will enter into eternity in that same spiritual state, death, and live in hell forever and ever. This is what the Scriptures consistantly teach. I believe what you have done with your statements is to soften the wrath of God that will be revealed from heaven against all sin, because perhaps to you it sounds too harsh, too unloving, too impersonal, and the like. If you are not careful, you could end up in the land of easy-belivism, which is where this doctrine you teach I believe is born.

TiltedHalo says, "But I have to say that it is because of sin that we are promised the reward of hell. Yes the wages of sin is death, I say, “ you are wrong because the verse clearly says that we are promised the reward of death and not hell.You say, “But you are taking upon a literal definition of "death".I say, “of course, Adam and Eve started to begin to die when they ate that fruit, before they ate they were not dieing at all. But It was also a spiritual death also.You say, “Not accepting this gift, & continuing to live in sin is what demands a debt paid by being completely severed from the communion with God in everlasting purgatory.I say, “You basically just agreed to my first post in this thread here but I don't believe in purgatory.Sermonindex Administrator says, after quoting Jude 6-7, “Surely with this above example it is ample to prove that the cities around along with Sodom and Gomorrah where judged and are suffering the "vengeance of eternal fire". Meaning because of their sins, specifically of "fornication" and "strange flesh" (sodomy), they were judged.”I say, “Since you are using an Old Testament referral we must see how the Old Testament Saints were saved. Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” The cities around along with Sodom and Gomorrah where not judged because of there sins but because of there unbelief. You say after quoting me," Hebrews 9:27 and as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."I say, “ That word does not mean condemn but in Greek krisis {kree'-sis} to 1) a separating, like at a trial, or contest; 2) selection with an opinion or decision given concerning anything esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong .“ So it is the judging the righteous and the wicked each have there own judgment. The righteous are judged at the Beema seat and the wicked at the White Throne of Judgment.You quoted Revelation 20:14-15, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."I say, “they were cast out because there name was not found written in the book of life and not because of sin. Your name gets written in it when you accept That sacrifice, along with His resurrection and repent from your sins.You Said, “Jesus became sin for us so that we would not die in our sins. And yes people are going to hell without Jesus because their sin is left on them, we must reckon our self’s dead with Christ. Read Romans 5 and 6 for a clear understanding of Christ's death and our salvation.I say, “To die IN our sins we will go to hell not Because of them.KingJimmysays after quoting John 3:18-20,” There is a partial truth to what you are saying: men go to hell because they reject Jesus. However, this key passage of Scripture teaches that the reason men reject Jesus is because they are sinners, who love their sin. Because of such, they reject Christ. Because of such, they go to hell.I say, “the Scripture does not teach that the reason men reject Jesus is because they are sinners It is because the hate the Light and hate the Truth! If what you say is true, then no one would be saved because all are sinners. The wicked are not judged because of sin but because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18You said, “The wages of sin is death. In the day Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they died. Literally taking what God said, they should have dropped dead that very moment. However, in that day, when they became partakers of sin, they did die: spiritually. That spiritual death manifested itself in physical death. And if you and I die physically in a state of spiritual death, you and I will enter into eternity in that same spiritual state, death, and live in hell forever and ever.I say, “I completely understand all this, please read my thread “Origin of sin & death” in the Scriptures and Doctrine section.You said, “This is what the Scriptures consistently teach. I believe what you have done with your statements is to soften the wrath of God that will be revealed from heaven against all sin, because perhaps to you it sounds too harsh, too unloving, too impersonal, and the like. If you are not careful, you could end up in the land of easy-belivism, which is where this doctrine you teach I believe is born.I say, “I did not soften the wrath of God that will be revealed from heaven against all sin. Because I still acknowledge that people go to hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm (conscience) dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. I do not think that it is to harsh too unloving, too impersonal, and the like because I accept the reality of it no matter how God puts it, People do go to hell. It is not easy-belivism Because I tell the unsaved They will go to hell if they don’t accepted That sacrifice, along with His resurrection and repent from there sins, I am not once saved always saved which easy-belivism is found. Prove to me how this Doctrine leads in that way.

DID YOU ASK GOD ?When I read your postings, I get this terrible feeling in my spirit.It also seems as if you are re-writing the Bible.It is definitely an Affront to God, the things that you state to us as being 'it'I am quite sure that you do not have God's approval.Did you ask him if all the statements you are making are true? Did you ask him if it was ok to make the statements in public?We have a saying, which is: "He has put the Cat among the Pigeons" do you know what this means?God and Jesus are not a game to be played with. He is watching looking and listening to you. We need to verify with him before..... Well there is a lot I could say but I am not going to.I get the feeling that you are a controversial person.I have said all these things as your posts disturb me and this is my answer to all of them and any further postings. The only purpose I can see is that I myself would suffer from exhaustion answering at length statements that I find distasteful, and a waste of precious time. You might say well you don’t have to answer them that would be correct. The thing is I see the postings question, which also disturbs me, and I looked for this very reason.ellie

.I have said all these things as your posts disturb me and this is my answer to all of them and any further postings. The only purpose I can see is that I myself would suffer from exhaustion answering at length statements that I find distasteful, and a waste of precious time. You might say well you don’t have to answer them that would be correct. The thing is I see the postings question, which also disturbs me, and I looked for this very reason.My only wish here is to chalenge the Saint in looking deeper into the Doctorines of Scripter, and if I am in erore my hope is to be shown the truth. I love to listen to my critics because they have a reason for there statements. But I want my critics to show me why they are saying what they do. it makes for good conversation too.Please read My posts "The Origin of Sin & Death" and "Seeking Jesus, Knowing His will." and see more of my "doctorines" and you will see that I am very conservitive in my views.If anyone can pesuade me to there view I will gladly accept it. But all I read is missunderstandings of what I am saying. When People are right, I agree to them and cannot give a rebuttle, but when I can give a rebuttle it shows that I am explaing there mistake of what I have said

I still feel very much in my spirit that it is cat and mouse.There are many subjects that can be debated.And as I said in the PM Post Message to you the other day. It is God you need to seek on this not getting me "Say", to spend precious time, hours upon hours which are not necessary and I can assure you any time in the day, that I have, is precious time and not to be wasted. God showed me His truth by his Holy Spirit when he Miraculously came into my life in my own home I was not attending any church. He is the one who you should be asking. And also what I wrote on the thread is, Ask for his permission about you belief. This is what we are supposed to do as Christians. None of your statements make sense to me they are alien.You have to give your whole self to him; your whole life and he in return will give you a new life in him. The thought of that used to frighten me; I used to think how do you give your life up, won't it be the end, like oh! no! It will be dull.Oh! how I should have done it sooner, what he gives back is so wonderful. And then there is the refining, which does not end. But can be painful in the beginning. To be truly his and to receive the Holy Spirit we have to not keep, a few bits of our self, to our self. He needs all. I am still handing over self at times. Look to him and listen to him in your heart, spirit, being, mind, etc.And then come back with a wonderful testimony of How God changed your thought patterns and filled you with all truth and awe of him.You seem to be very well educated.And you could Post wonderful debates on Gods Word and TruthGod Loves You…. He see’s your heart and mind ellie

Don't throw your pearls to the pigs, they will just trample all over them. Jesus never argued either Kingdom, He proclaimed & kept it moving. Points were made on both ends, and as Ellie stated, it is viable to debate on mans doctrine, but not the Word of God, that is everlasting & 110% truth. And i pray you find it sir.God Bless

Well, we all have to work out our "own" salvation, Surly the blood shed at the cross was not in vain, or Jesus sure died a horrible worthless death, so I personally believe in my salvation that Christ and I are on the same page, he tells me I would like to perfect you Mr. Bill but all have fallen short including you and that is what my blood was shed for so do your best and I will help you work out the rest. You know even though the Bible might be in black and white and some of us including myself try and interpret scripture to fit what they want to believe that is why the most important principle to remember in studying God's Word is that it can only be understood with the help of the Holy Spirit. Those who approach the Bible without the Holy Spirit to teach them, may gain some insight into their lives, but will receive no life-changing revelation. There are cultists and atheists who know the Bible better than many Christians. Why are some able to read of God's Word, and yet bear no fruit in their lives? The answer is simple: Because, they are not open to the Holy Spirit's guidance as they read the Word. Therefore, it is absolutely crucial that we acknowledge the presence of the Holy Spirit and ask Him to lead us into all truth and to make the mysteries of God's Word known to our spirit. Just my two cents. :-?

...a place to come alongside each other and seek the face of Jesus. This is one of the best mission statements I have ever heard. Beautiful.

does anyone read what I am accualy saying? If you did, you would not disagree. It is basic theology that I post, with no debat needed. I just want people to see the scriptures more clearly by being specific and using specific terms for a more accurate interprataion. I am only saying two words that you all are missing. die in your sins you go to hell not because of your sins. The word "Because" denots a reason for whatever. if the reason you are in hell or if it was because of your sins, the cross of Christ is no effect because you still sin, and because of sin you are saying you go to hell. All I am saying is that Jesus takes the condemnation of that sin off of us so we are no longer in sin. 1Corinth. 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. You are eather in the law of sin and death or in Christ Jesus.What I write is not off base.It is like when someone says Jesus died on the cross for us. He didn't. He died on the cross because of us for His Father. Saying that he died for us is man centered. The other way is Christ centered. We must get away from the man centered religion!When ever you all try to show me I am wrong, you are only showing me that you misunderstand what I have written and when I respond to your replies I am only explaining your error in your response to what I have said. I love the Truth, if I am wrong, my mouth will be stopped by your rebuttle.

Logic wrote:It is basic theology that I post, with no debat needed. basic theology? I did not know there was such a thing as basic theology, all of it seems so alive and in depth to me, I will only really understand it when I meet the person who inspired it,then and only then will there be no more debates. :-)

Logic,I can recognize that you are trying to make a point...but your recent threads tend to come off like argumentative challenges. Unlike many forums, this place tends to work better when we invest time listening, rather then immediately provoking one other. If all we do is post manifestos then communication and fellowship breaks down. There are pilgrims here who have long been walking the rugged road that basic theology can only describe...I have been humbled by them. I continue to be appreciative of the caliber of descipleship in this forum. Before starting any new threads, why not take some time to interact in some of their conversations? As for this thread, let me offer this bit of understanding...Lewis Sperry Chafer, who founded the Dallas Theological Seminary, had commentary that was along similar lines to your thesis. (My memory may not render this exactly as he put it...)"People need not go to hell because of sin but because they have rejected the solution for sin in Christ." His premise wasn't designed to shock or to put forth an antinomian gospel, but to underline the fact that God was, through Christ, propitious towards all men...not just saints. He was trying to recognize the completion of the work Christ did on behalf of the world whether man enters into or not. "And He is the propitiation for our sins; not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."1 John 2:2 He was not saying that sin has not made the sinner the object of everlasting wrath. Chafer, (whose theology was decended from the likes of the Plymouth Brethren and Jonathan Edwards), believed God was just in reserving utter wrath for man because of sin. His statement was meant to underscore the double tragedy of men going to hell for sins that Jesus died for. Yes, all men are condemned by God for their sin, but now there is a reconciliation possible through Christ who has borne all sin which renders God propitious. If there was any shock value in his premise, it was to challenge the wrong notion that our sorrowful repentence over sin is the work that softens God's heart towards us. On the contrary it is revealed, "Behold the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the World." Asking God to see our sorrow over sin as good behavior that merits mercy is "rank unbelief" in the work of Jesus Christ. True repentance is a work born of true faith in God's satisfacton with His son. With this Godward understanding firmly in place, not believing does indeed become the ultimate reason for condemnation. MC

I can recognize that you are trying to make a point...but your recent threads tend to come off like argumentative challenges. I am sorry for that, I tend to bluntly state facts and not to put things in a more social syntax.this place tends to work better when we invest time listening, rather then immediately provoking one other. My intention is only to provoke one to search the Scritures more deeply and to see the truth from our doctorine in a more difined view.As for this thread, let me offer this bit of understanding...I thank you for your understanding, I am glad to see that you can realate to where I am comming from.His premise wasn't designed to shock or to put forth an antinomian gospel, but to underline the fact that God was, through Christ, propitious towards all men...not just saints. He was trying to recognize the completion of the work Christ did on behalf of the world whether man enters into or not.It was neather my premise, but that is the way people took it and it verily frusterated me. I didn't know how to be any more clear on what I was trying to say, and that is maybe why I sounded the way I did.Yes, all men are condemned by God for their sin, but now there is a reconciliation possible through Christ who has borne all sin which renders God propitious. My main point is all men are only condemned by God for their rejection of Christ and in the old testement They were only condemned by God for their unbelief Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Job 19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth: and also for the non-jews Jonah 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. If there was any shock value in his premise, it was to challenge the wrong notion that our sorrowful repentence over sin is the work that softens God's heart towards us. Same thing goes for my topic but as I said My intention is only to provoke one to search the Scritures more deeply and to see the truth from our doctorine in a more difined view.again I thank you for your understanding.

Logic...Quote: My intention is only e:to provoke one to search the Scritures more deeply and to see the truth from our doctorinein a more difined view.You say "our Doctrine" which is, what, who, where, when.Who are you, what church do you attend.ellie

You say "our Doctrine" which is, what, who, where, when.Who are you, what church do you attend.Our Doctrine as in the Doctrine of the Church of our lord witch all true Christians attend.I am a conservative Christian that studies apologetics. My Church is Non-denominational with Pastor Bill Randles. Try Googling his name once. and go to the websight. http://www.believersingrace.com/ We believe the Bible, both old and new testaments, is the Word of God, it is infallible and inspired and to submit to Jesus as Lord is to submit to the absolute authority of the Bible. We believe in one eternal God, infinite and personal,--our Creator as well as our Redeemer, the Almighty, the Father. God has revealed Himself unto us as three eternal persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We believe that Jesus Christ is our Creator, God, manifested for us in the flesh, born of a virgin--truly man, truly God, but unmixed, crucified as a sacrifice for our sins and after totally satisfying the just judgement of God against us as sinners, He was raised from the dead, bodily, ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God, as the only true and living way to God. We believe in the fall of man as recorded in Genesis 3, that though man is created in the image of God, and to this day he bears that image, the fall has resulted in absolute sinfulness and total depravity of man. We believe that there is none righteous, no not one, there is none that doeth good, none that seeks God. Man can only be saved by justifying God, believing and acknowledging the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and repenting, allowing God to justify us freely by grace. We believe that water baptism is the true confession of repentance of dead works, and resurrection with and in union to Jesus, and it is the appeal to God for a good conscience, and salvation from this age. But you need not to be baptised in order to go to heaven as the theif on the cross was never baptised We believe God has called us to a holy life by the power of the Spirit and the means of grace, prayer, the Word, fellowship, and worship. We believe that we receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon us in the baptism of the Spirit--power to witness and have supernatural gifts to edify one another and the lost. We believe in the communion elements and what they represent, the Body of Christ broken for our healing and reunity--the Blood of Jesus shed for the remission of our sins and the communion to renew our fellowship in Him. We believe in the soon coming of our Lord Jesus, and our gathering together unto Him, the end of this age, the resurrection of all, saved and lost, the saved shall receive reward and the lost shall be expelled to receive eternal punishment.

Logic, In my opinion your Church is right on track.What do you believe about the tribilation and the Rapture?

If it were as some of you say “because of sin we go to hell,” We Christians would go to hell because we still sin even if we repent. Sin is sin and “you go to hell because of sin.”Now think of it my way for a while, if you will.I will say sinners go to hell. We go to hell because we are sinners. Not because we sin or because of sin.I will try going at this from another approach. If a living being barks like a dog, that doesn’t make it a dog, because a person can bark and even a parrot. But being a dog makes it bark because that is what dogs do. So in turn you’re not a sinner because you sin, you sin because you are a sinner. And again your not a thief because you steel, you steel because you’re a thief. We are all born sinners. Hypothetically a man lives his whole life without sinning but never accepted that sacrifice of Jesus, along with His resurrection (Saved, Born again). He would still go to hell because he is still a sinner. But if he did accepted that sacrifice of Jesus, along with His resurrection before he dies (he needs not to repent because he never sinned), that would make him a new creation in Christ, born again and no longer a sinner and therefore he will not go to hell when he dies.Now you and I accepted that sacrifice of Jesus, along with His resurrection and repented from our sins, we are new creations in Christ born again and no longer sinners so therefore we will not go to hell when we die, even if we stumble and sin but get back up.Remember We go to hell because we are sinners. Not because we sin or because of sin.

According to your doctrine, why do Muslims go to hell, who have never heard? Or Buddhists, or Hindus, or animestic religions?Not because they don't believe in one they have never heard, but because they are sinners. As most people have said in one form or another, your theology is bad.He will convict of sin, because they do not believe in me.Does that say that Jesus convicts of the sin of unbelief? Or, does it say that they will be convicted of sin because they are not believers, or in other words, they will be convicted because they aren't saved? I think the text, and the whole understanding of scripture lends to the latter. I have never seen anyone convicted because they did not believe in Jesus - they usually feel they are justified in their doubts according to the proof which has been offered currently. But I have seen many unbelievers convicted of sins - and they had nowhere to turn, becuase they had not applied the blood of the Savior to themselves.. The cities around along with Sodom and Gomorrah where not judged because of there sins but because of there unbelief.Again, you should not use your own imagination, but scripture:Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit. Ezekiel 16:49-50It clearly says why God judged them, and it was because of sin.

According to your doctrine, why do Muslims go to hell, who have never heard? Or Buddhists, or Hindus, or animestic religions?Not because they don't believe in one they have never heard, but because they are sinners.I will disagree. They do believe, But yes they are sinners and that is why I say the you to hellI say they beleive because GOD sais they do...Rom 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness (they know the true but supress it); :19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 2:14,15 The Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law. :15 Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them. (paraphrased)Thenn you then gave a partial scripture:Quote:He will convict of sin, because they do not believe in me. I believe you were referring to these verses John 16:7-9 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:8 And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: :9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; Then you go on to sayDoes that say that Jesus convicts of the sin of unbelief? Or, does it say that they will be convicted of sin because they are not believers, or in other words, they will be convicted because they aren't saved? I think the text, and the whole understanding of scripture lends to the latter. I have never seen anyone convicted because they did not believe in Jesus - they usually feel they are justified in their doubts according to the proof which has been offered currently. But I have seen many unbelievers convicted of sins - and they had nowhere to turn, becuase they had not applied the blood of the Savior to themselves.. The holy Spirit Convicts. of sin Because they don't believe hin him and I've been telling you from the beginnig that sin only brings death, it only kills you. It does not bring you to hell Genisis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof (sin) thou shalt surely die[/u]. Romans 7:5-13 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. :6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.Romans:8-11 But (known) sin, having received an opportunity through the (knowledge of the) commandment, wrought in me all manner of lustful desires. For without the (knowledge of the) law (known) sin was dead.:9 For I was alive without (knowledge of the) law once: but when (knowledge of the) the commandment came, (known) sin revived, and I died. :10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.:11 For sin, taking oppertunity by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.It says nothing about taking a man to hell but The Scriptures through out the Bible says that because of sin you dieLook, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit. Ezekiel 16:49-50It clearly says why God judged them, and it was because of sin.I agree, but Please reread that in my last post I explaind that they sinned because they are sinners. They are not sinners because they sin.Sinner is like a title like "electrician" or Chef" when you cook something, that doesn't make you a chef, but if you are a chef, you will automaticaly cook. Your not a sinner because you sin, you sin because you are a sinner. Christians are not sinners because sinners go to hell. When a Christian sins(stumbles) that doesn't make him a sinner. A sinner will automaticaly sin no matter what.I beg you all, please read back through all my answers in this whole thread and try to understand!

What do you believe about the tribulation and the Rapture? Since this topic is huge and deserves a whole thread by its self, I will keep my answer brief.The tribulation is in three parts in referring to Revelations, Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls.You also can divide the tribulation in to two parts: The Time of False Pease with the persecution of the True Church which is the wrath of Satan.The second part is the Wrath of God. We will be taken up right before the wrath of GOD somewhere but not exactly in mid-trib.But this is only my opinion . I hate it when someone teaches his view on the tribulation as fact. If you want to read an excellent view on it go here:http://www.apocalipsis.org/malcolmsmith11.htm

Quote you wrote: I beg you all, please read back through all my answers in this whole thread and try to understand!It has been read, it has been answered, and unless it is agreed with, as to what you believe. You will keep saying that we haven’t got it right, we haven’t read it properly and why can we not understand what you are saying.It has been understood, it is controversial doctrine. Myself I would say it is a brainwashing, controversial, Doctrine, that is continually verbally compounded to you.The only purpose it has to myself is to exhaust me.When you write these things to Christians who walk with God in the Truth of the scripture and not other peoples own interpretation that deviates from the Truth. You will find that it cannot be agreed with. I cannot agree to false doctrine, it is against my belief.Anyone in the whole world can make the scripture into different meanings, stretching it here, pulling it there, until it fits that persons ideology as it would seem your church does. From what I have seen on the website, that you gave to us on your posting.The set up is nothing that I would, ever enter into. Nothing can persuade me to that Doctrine. I have given a lot of time to your postings and PM,s to you. And still you seem to not understand that I believe your doctrine to be very damaging.I pray that God Himself Would Show You, The Truth of Himself and His Word.ellie

Logic:I thought you where a heritic, until I saw what you were saying.Let me further explian what I think you are trying to say:Our sins are the evidence that God uses against us. If our sins haven't been washed away, then the evidence against us will condemn us on the Day of Judgment.But, How does God prove that evidence? He uses the Law. What does the Law do? The Law is used to show us that we cannot uphold the law and we are incapable to do it and that we need to be changed from the inside in order to accomplish the Law. The Law not only shows us that we sin, it shows us why we need to be changed most of all. The evidence of sin only compounds the judgment that we already have to start with if we are not changed.God doesn't only forgive your sins(the evidence against us); He must first forgive who you are first. When God frogives who you are, you are then changed. If He doesn't forgive who you are(dead spiritually) first, you couldn't come into His presence nor able to follow him in your Christian walk(after the spirit). Then He forgives what you do in order for you to stay in His presence.When we are born, we are spiritually dead and are soulish. Our souls rule our physical bodies. When we become born again, we become spiritually alive(to Christ). Our souls then need to be the servant to our spirits to rule our flesh in a Godly manner. The soul is what we battle everyday, who will rule? Our soulish passion for the flesh(to walk after it) or our spirit to life in Christ which has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Logic said "It is like when someone says Jesus died on the cross for us. He didn't. He died on the cross because of us for His Father.Saying that he died for us is man centered. The other way is Christ centered.We must get away from the man centered religion!"I disagree with this a bit. To say that Jesus didnt die for us and instead died because of us is man centered. That is like saying Jesus HAD to die, because of us. Jesus didnt die because he HAD to. But because he WANTED to. Because he LOVED us. He could have anihilated the whole lot of us, and to say that he HAD to die is a bit proud in my opinion. To think that God wasn't capable removing our pitiful, wicked, evil selves from this earth and start over(but instead spared us) is to not believe in an Alimighty, all-powerful, LOVING, SELF SACRIFICING, God.Maybe I am misunderstanding what you said. If you could help me to understand it better, I would much appreciate it.

I disagree with this a bit.I will say that I agree with you a bitThat is like saying Jesus HAD to die, because of us. Jesus didn’t die because he HAD to. But because he WANTED to. Because he LOVED us. You are right in that He didn't have to, but in His love He hade to. God's infinite Love had to equal His infinite justice.He could have annihilated thee whole lot of us, and to say that he HAD to die is a bit proud in my opinion.Yes He could have annihilated the whole lot of us but it says in Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: So if He planed on dieing on the cross even before Adams fall and the prophecies about it would show that HE had to So He could fulfill prophecy. So in His love He had to in a sense.I would like to ask you how does this sound proud? And, how does the word "because" mean "Had to"?Anyway, my point was that Because of Adams fall is why Jesus died so that His Father in Heaven can accept us. So, that would mean it was for His Father.There is a song that got me thinking about this certain subject, and it is why I posted what I said. The name of the song is "Above All"And part of the song goes like this"Crucified,Laid behind the stone;You lived to die,Rejected and alone;Like arose,Trampled on the ground,You took the fall,and thought of me above all.The last verse of this song is totaly wrong. He thought about His Father and to do His will above all. This song is the man centered Gosple that I will warn about.I will addmit that it is a beautiful song, but that last verse MUST be cut out.

Anyhow, of those great men & woman I talked about up on top of this post ... here are some of the best there is , read the names. http://op.50megs.com/act/page16.html .I am so glad to see you into Apologetics & Discernment ministries. The link you gave here Has my pastors name, Bill Randles. And Jacob Prasch come to my church often. Please visit our web page http://www.believersingrace.com/links.php. but Proof-read well, (Boy - do I have to do that) and use a Spell Checker first. I do as much as posible, but when I get a though, I dont want to loose it by thinking about spell checking. I will try to use word then Copy & paste.Another thing, if I could, if you always make your posts mostly Scripture, with as little comment as you can beneath each verse ... God's Word Proves Itself and/or Stands on It's Own.I try do back everything I say with Scripture, and keep my own words to a minimum as I can.Thanks for putting up with me.I thank you all, you all have chalenged me so that I could bring my thoughts together and have refine my understanding of what I am trying to show you all. I am just about finished so that I can explain myself thoroughly with this topic and you all will come to an understanding. It should be my next post.I hope I made sence in this because I am very tired right now

Sin only brings death: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Ezekiel 18:4 ...: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Now where in the Bible does sin relate to hell or even have them in the same verse. It's eather sin & death, or death & hell. The death is both spiritual and physical. You are spiritualy dead already, and you will die physicaly. The dead who do not have life in Christ Jesus can only go to hell Because they are still spiritualy dead and where not made alive unto God through Jesus the Christ. Here are some veses that have the Book of Life Rev. 6:8 A: And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him... Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The dead naturaly sin so they will worship the beast. They are not in the Book of Life because they are dead spiritualy. Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life , and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. There is only life found in Christ because He is the Living God of life: Mathew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living . Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more : for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him . Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death . 1Corinth. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But God will only bring the living to Heavan. He has the book of life and who ever is not spiritualy dead, but is alive in Christ will be written in it. Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life . Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. You must go to hell only for being spritualy dead, and not because of your sinnes.

what about the word 'damnation'?just a thought

what about the word 'damnation'?From the root - DamnAll it means is doomed1. To pronounce an adverse judgment upon. See Synonyms at condemn. 2. To bring about the failure of; ruin. 3.To condemn as harmful, illegal, or immoral: a cleric who damned gambling and strong drink. 4.To condemn to everlasting punishment or a similar fate; doom. 5.To swear at. We are damned to hell if we don't repent.When you accept That sacrifise, along with His resurrection, then you are repenting.The very act of repentance is turning away from sin and toward God, and in faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

I tend to think in concepts and contrasts, not in words. So as I try to look for words that best suit my thoughts, I loose a lot of what I need to say. I usually go strait to the point and am blunt in my explanations without illustrations. The conversation in this thread is refining my thoughts on this whole topic, so I am actually better explaining my point by adding to it as I go, but keeping my main point intact.My whole point is become “eternal life or eternal death.” You are born with eternal death and therefor we need eternal life through Christ Jesus. 1Corinth. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. We need to be changed, not only forgiven of our sins. And the Law is used to show us that as I explained earlier.Romans 6:23 for the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.John 3:15 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.Sin and death Or Eternal Life.sin – death, death – sin, it is an endless cycle that no one can escape accept through Jesus.You are dead which is why you sin, or death brings corruption, which is sin, and if you sin, you will die.The only escape is accepting Jesus sacrifice on the cross along with His resrection.Take the Mystery of Godliness and the mystery of iniquity… 1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the Mystery of Godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. The Mystery of Godliness is explained in short as God appeared in human flesh and remains in the flesh. To denie this is the spirit of anti-christ. Paul does not define the Mystery of Iniquity, though it could be 3 to 4 verses above the mention of it... 2Thes. 2:4 Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. To sum it up - Man acting as god, and thinking he is a god, which is from “The Lie” from the beginning. This Mystery of Iniquity should also conclude to the denial that Christ came in the flesh which is indeed the denial Mystery of Godliness. The Mystery of Godliness opposes the Mystery of Iniquity. Scripture would confirm this precise definition. Mystery of Godliness is seen also in Romans 8:3, 4 for what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. and Philippians 2:5-9 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: :6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: :7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: :8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. :9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: The acceptance of the Mystery of Godliness will bring you to Eternal life. The denial of these, which is Mystery of Iniquity, will lead you to hell.

Brother,I have read your posts and see where you are comming from...Ellie I feel is slightly over reacting :-) Lets remember its hard to understand tone of voice or feeling in this written way that we use.This is a market place of discussion, and a good one at that!There has been many who have in the past tried to take things way off balance I think Logic is trying not to be disruptive.This site is wonderful lets keep it going :-)