America, the superpower

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu2-JIFgaDw

Do you really think America is mentioned in the Bible?

The word America is not mentioned in the bible. What they are saying is America will be a part of 'All the nations' that will battle against Jerusalem', in the fulfillment of Zechariah 14.

They also believe that an important reason why America rose to superpower is for the fulfillment of God's intent to restore the land of Israel to the Jews having Jerusalem as its capital.

I watched parts, but not all of the video. Who are "they?” Do "they” represent some group or church?

ADD: I would strongly recommend reading Matthew Henry’s commentary of Zech. 14.

They also believe that an important reason why America rose to superpower is for the fulfillment of God's intent to restore the land of Israel to the Jews having Jerusalem as its capital.

OR, it could be that God raised up and prospered the nations that He used to preach the gospel worldwide.

For example, in the days when it was said that the sun never set on the British Empire, the United Kingdom sent out missionaries far and wide, to countries both within and outside its empire, from Africa (David Livingstone, various missionary societies, etc.) to India (William Carey, various missionary societies, etc.) to China (Hudson Taylor and the China Inland Mission, various missionary societies, etc.) and elsewhere.

The United States was greatly involved in worldwide evangelisation in the last century.

For example, Billy Graham hosted "crusades”, evangelistic campaigns that ran from 1947 until his retirement in 2005. He preached to live audiences of 210 million people in more than 185 countries and territories. As of 2008, his estimated lifetime audience, including radio and television broadcasts, topped 2.2 billion.
(Source: Wikipedia).

Amir Tsarfati and Jan Markell are messianic jews, Barry Stagner is a senior pastor and speaker (christian views) in national radio and internet broadcast. I stumbled upon Amir while viewing John MacArthur in youtube. A refresher and challenging, that's what I can say about them.

@Bv

I guess they didn't miss that, 'among the important reasons' why the Lord raised America as a very powerful and rich nation. But then, consider seriously what John MacArthur believe, it maybe too late for America now. All must be ready for the new order of state of affairs.

Gal. 4:26 ”“
But THE JERUSALEM ABOVE is free; she is our mother.

Heb. 12:22-24 ”“
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Col. 3:1-2 ”“
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Set your minds on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth.

Phil. 3:20-21 ”“
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

/ADD: I would strongly recommend reading Matthew Henry’s commentary of Zech. 14./

I did some of that reading in his commentary and was somewhat surprised and intrigued by what I read.

14:4-5
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south.

14:5
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, for the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.

Matthew Henry comments:

These verses are dark and hard to be understood; but divers good expositors take this to be the meaning of them. [1.] God will carefully inspect Jerusalem, even then when the enemies of it are laying it waste: His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, whence he may take a full view of the city and temple, (Mk. 13:3). When the refiner puts his gold into the furnace he stands by it, and has his eye upon it, to see that it receive no damage; so when Jerusalem, God’s gold, is to be refined, he will have the oversight of it. He will stand by upon the mount of Olives; this was literally fulfilled when our Lord Jesus was often upon this mountain, especially when thence he ascended up into heaven, (Acts. 1:12). It was the last place on which his feet stood on this earth, the place from which he took rise. [2.] The partition-wall between Jews and Gentiles shall be taken away. The mountains about Jerusalem, and particularly this, signified it to be an enclosure, and that it stood in the way of those who would approach to it. Between the Gentiles and Jerusalem this mountain of Bether, of division, stood, (Cant. 2:17). But by the destruction of Jerusalem this mountain shall be made to cleave in the midst, and so the Jewish pale shall be taken down, and the church laid in common with the Gentiles, who were made one with the Jews by the breaking down of this middle wall of partition, (Eph. 2:14). Who art thou, O great mountain? And a great mountain the ceremonial law was in the way of the Jews’ conversion, which, one would think, could never have been got over; yet before Christ and his gospel it was made plain. This mountain departs, this hill removes, but the covenant of peace cannot be broken; for peace is still preached to him that is afar off and to those that are nigh. [3.] A new and living way shall be opened to the new Jerusalem, both to see it and to come into it. The mountain being divided, one-half towards the north and the other half towards the south, there shall be a very great valley, that is, a broad way of communication opened between Jerusalem and the Gentile world, by which the Gentiles shall have free admission into the gospel-Jerusalem, and the word of the Lord, that goes forth from Jerusalem, shall have a free course into the Gentile world. Thus the way of the Lord is prepared, for every mountain and hill shall be brought low, and plain and pleasant valleys shall come in the room of them, (Isa. 40:4). [4.] Those of the Jews that believe shall come in, and join themselves to the Gentiles, incorporate with them in the gospel-church: You shall flee to the valley of the mountains, that valley that is opened between the divided halves of the mount of Olives; they shall hasten into the church with the Gentiles, as formerly the Gentiles with them,

- His feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives ”“ this was literally fulfilled when Jesus Himself stood upon the Mount of Olives during His lifetime?

What if in fact, it is speaking of the day when Christ returns and His feet shall stand in that Day upon the Mount of Olives?

- The splitting of the mountain was meant to show that the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile was split and done away with?

What if it was meant to prophesy of the time when the mount will actually be physically split at the return of Christ?

- The mountain being divided, half towards the north and the other half towards the south, there shall be a very great valley, that is, a broad way of communication opened between Jerusalem and the Gentile world, by which the Gentiles shall have free admission into the gospel-Jerusalem, and the word of the Lord, that goes forth from Jerusalem, shall have a free course into the Gentile world.

What if the valley being spoken of is just simply the literal valley that will lie between the two halves of the mountain now physically split?

14:10-11
10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raiised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin's Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corber Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's winepresses.

11 The people shall dwell in it; and no longer shall there be utter destruction, but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Matthew Henry comments:

Some think this denotes particular favor to the people of the Jews, and points at their conversion and restoration in the latter days; but it is rather to be understood figuratively of the church, typified by Judah and Jerusalem, and it signifies the abundant graces with which the church shall be crowned, and the fruitfulness of its members, and the vast numbers of them. (1.) The church shall be like a fruitful country, abounding in all the rich products of the soil. The whole land of Judea, which is naturally uneven and hilly, shall be turned as a plain; it shall become a smooth level valley, from Geba, or Gibeah, its utmost border north, to Rimmon, which lay south of Jerusalem and was the utmost southern limit of Judea. The gospel of Christ, where it comes in its power, levels the ground; mountains and hills are brought low by it, that the Lord alone may be exalted. (2.) It shall be like a populous city. As the holy land shall be leveled, so the holy city shall be peopled, shall be rebuilt and replenished. Jerusalem shall be lifted up out of its low estate, shall be raised out of its ruins; when the land is turned as a plain, and not only the mount of Olives removed (v.  4), but other mountains too, then Jerusalem shall be lifted up, that is, shall appear the more conspicuous; she shall be inhabited in her place, even in Jerusalem, ch.  12:6 . The whole city shall be inhabited in the utmost extent of it, and no part of it left to lie waste. The utmost limits of it are here mentioned, between which there shall be no ground lost, but all built upon, from Benjamin’s-gate north-east to the corner-gate north-west, and from the tower of Hananeel in the south to the king’s wine-presses in the north; when the churches of Christ in all places are replenished with great numbers of holy, humble, serious Christians, and many such are daily added to it, then this promise is fulfilled. (3.) This country and this city shall both be safe, both the meat in the country and the mouths in the city: Those that dwell in it shall dwell securely, and there shall be none to make them afraid; there shall be no more of that utter destruction that has laid both town and country waste, no more anathema (as some read it), no more cutting off, no more curse, or separation from God to evil, no more such desolating judgments as you have been groaning under, but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited; there shall be no danger, nor any apprehension of it; neither shall its friends be fearful to disquiet themselves nor its enemies formidable to disquiet them. That promise of Christ explains this””that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church; and so do the holy security and serenity of mind which believers enjoy in relying on the divine protection.

- Some think this denotes particular favor to the people of the Jews, and points at their conversion and restoration in the latter days; but it is rather to be understood figuratively of the gospel-church, typified by Judah and Jerusalem, and it signifies the abundant graces with which the church shall be crowned, and the fruitfulness of its members, and the vast numbers of them. The church shall be like a fruitful country, abounding in all the rich products of the soil.

Did Matthew Henry believe that the Jews would be converted and restored in the latter days?

What if, in keeping with the prophet Zechariah's original intent, the prophecy in these verses does indeed refer to a literal Judah and a literal Jerusalem? A last century Messianic Jew who was a Old Testament scholar asked, "If Judah and Jerusalem actually refer to the church in Old Testament prophecy, then what then does Israel refer to? If Israel refers to the church when mentioned in prophecy, then what does Judah refer to?"

Where does the allegorization end? Was Zechariah prophesying in purely allegorical terms of which the fulfillment would go so far so far as to change what is the common sense logical meaning of what he prophesied and that which he intended for his hearers to understand?

- Jerusalem shall be lifted up out of its low estate, shall be raised out of its ruins; when the land is turned as a plain, and not only the mount of Olives removed (v.4), but other mountains too, then Jerusalem shall be lifted up, that is, shall appear the more conspicuous; she shall be inhabited in her place, even in Jerusalem, (ch. 12:6). The whole city shall be inhabited in the utmost extent of it, and no part of it left to lie waste. The utmost limits of it are here mentioned, between which there shall be no ground lost, but all built upon, from Benjamin’s-gate north-east to the corner-gate north-west, and from the tower of Hananeel in the south to the king’s wine-presses in the north; when the churches of Christ in all places are replenished with great numbers of holy, humble, serious Christians, and many such are daily added to it, then this promise is fulfilled. (3.) This country and this city shall both be safe, both the meat in the country and the mouths in the city: Those that dwell in it shall dwell securely, and there shall be none to make them afraid; there shall be no more of that utter destruction that has laid both town and country waste, no more anathema (as some read it), no more cutting off, no more curse, or separation from God to evil, no more such desolating judgments as you have been groaning under, but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited; there shall be no danger, nor any apprehension of it; neither shall its friends be fearful to disquiet themselves nor its enemies formidable to disquiet them. That promise of Christ explains this””that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church; and so do the holy security and serenity of mind which believers enjoy in relying on the divine protection.

What if Zechariah was in truth prophesying of Israel and Jerusalem in that day and not the church as we now know it?

TMK, do you really think Matthew Henry is explaining correctly the meaning of Zechariah 14?

There is a growing trend away from this type of allegorical hermeneutics, however well meaning it was meant but still followed which many see as non comprehensive and non consistent principles of prophetic interpretation.

Directed not at the good bro TMK directly, but more to the forum at large for a point of possible discussion.

"There are differences between literal and figurative approaches to Scripture and many times the allegorical method has been used to minimize the role played by the Jewish people in the plan of God."

"Typology and allegorical methods of interpretation are used today by a supersessionist approach to the Bible to reject the national and territorial promises of Israel and spiritualize them as being fulfilled in Jesus and the Church."

"Many scholars and theologians are saying there should be a more holistic reading of the Bible in which all of God's promises, including those that speak of the Jewish people and the Land of Israel, are truly fulfilled."

"Today, there is a general agreement among Evangelical theologians and biblical scholars that "spiritual interpretation" as traditionally practiced is not acceptable."

(By Dr. Craig A. Blaising - from "Hermeneutics, Theology, and Church History" - chapter on "Israel and Hermeneutics.")

The fact of the matter is that until Darby in the 19th century Zech 14 was not interpreted literally.

Of course this does not mean that Darby (and his dispensationalist progeny) are not right and every prior commentator was wrong.

But perhaps the more humble approach is to say "I’m not sure,” which is just what Luther said about this chapter.

…………… to reject the national and territorial promises of Israel and spiritualize them as being fulfilled in Jesus and the Church."

What do you say to these scripture:

1 Pet. 1:10-12 ”“
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things into which angels long to look.

Luke 24:44-47 ”“
Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

John 12:40-41 ”“
Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

Acts 3:24 ””
Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.

The Law was only a shadow of good things to come (Heb. 10:1).

Grace and TRUTH came through Jesus Christ (John 1:17)

The true Jew is the Jew in Christ (Rom. 2:28-29).

The true Israel is the Israel in Christ (Rom. 9:6-18, Gal. 3:29, 4:28).

The true Jerusalem is the New Jerusalem, the bride of Christ (Rev. 21:98-11).

The true temple is the church, the body of Christ (John 1:19-21, Eph. 1:22-23, 2:19-22).

The Old Covenant is obsolete (Heb. 8:13).

The New covenant is the glorious and eternal covenant in Jesus’ blood.

All who belong to Christ are Abraham’s descendants and heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:29).

The country Abraham desired was a heavenly and not an earthly one.

Heb. 11:10,16 ”“
for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God……………But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

Also, consider:

Heb. 11:40 ”“
God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

"Today, there is a general agreement among Evangelical theologians and biblical scholars that "spiritual interpretation" as traditionally practiced is not acceptable."

Do we stand on the Bible or on the general agreement among evangelical theologians and biblical scholars?

Do we stand on the wisdom of man or on CHRIST the power of God and the wisdom of God?

John 6:63 ”“
The words that I speak to you are SPIRIT, and they are life.

John 4:23-24 ”“
But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. GOD IS SPIRIT, AND THOSE WHO WORSHIP HIM MUST WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH.

Romans 11:25-27

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Jeremiah 30 Restoration of Israel and Judah

The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 "Thus speaks the Lord God of Israel, saying: ‘Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the Lord. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ ”

4 Now these are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah.

5 "For thus says the Lord:

‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the Lord of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.

10 ‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the Lord,
‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’

12 "For thus says the Lord:

‘Your affliction is incurable,
Your wound is severe.
13 There is no one to plead your cause,
That you may be bound up;
You have no healing medicines.
14 All your lovers have forgotten you;
They do not seek you;
For I have wounded you with the wound of an enemy,
With the chastisement of a cruel one,
For the multitude of your iniquities,
Because your sins have increased.
15 Why do you cry about your affliction?
Your sorrow is incurable.
Because of the multitude of your iniquities,
Because your sins have increased,
I have done these things to you.

16 ‘Therefore all those who devour you shall be devoured;
And all your adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity;
Those who plunder you shall become plunder,
And all who prey upon you I will make a prey.
17 For I will restore health to you
And heal you of your wounds,’ says the Lord,
‘Because they called you an outcast saying:
"This is Zion;
No one seeks her.” ’

18 "Thus says the Lord:

‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the Lord.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”

23 Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord
Goes forth with fury,
A [e]continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the Lord will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.

In the latter days you will consider it.

Jeremiah 30

……… 3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the Lord. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it……

The days that were coming were the days of the New Covenant ”“ Jer. 31:31-34, Heb. 8:7-13.

In the days of the New Covenant, "they would serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them (Jer. 30:9).

Acts 2:38 ”“
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

This happened in the 1st century AD.

The prophets prophesied of the sufferings of Christ and the GLORIES to follow (1 Pet. 1:10-12).

The land in the New Covenant is Christ.

Ezekiel 37:14 ”“
"I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.

The Lord Jesus said in John 14:20 ”“
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.”

"In that day” i.e. the day the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer.

"Christ in you, the hope of glory" -- Col. 1:27.

Romans 11:25-27

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The hope and promise to Israel in Rom. 11 was not restoration of earthly territory but "life from the dead” (Rom. 11:15).

I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; they shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. I WILL PLANT THEM IN THEIR LAND, and no longer shall they be pulled up FROM THE LAND I HAVE GIVEN THEM, says the Lord your God. (Amos 9:14-15)

Then they shall DWELL IN THE LAND that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and THEY SHALL DWELL THERE, they, their children, and their children's children, forever;.... (Ezekiel 37:25

In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel WILL DWELL SAFELY; (Jeremiah 23:6)

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from JERUSALEM. (Isaiah 2:2-3)

After their spiritual restoration in Christ first.

Hi Todd. You said

"The fact of the matter is that until Darby in the 19th century Zech 14 was not interpreted literally."

John Gill (1697-1771) had this to say about Zechariah 14:
"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle,.... Meaning not the Romans, in the time of Vespasian, for they were not all nations; nor did a part of the city only go into captivity then, but the whole; nor did any remain in it: it seems right to refer it to the gathering of the kings of the earth to the battle of the Lord God Almighty at Armageddon, Revelation 16:14."

Gill also says that *all* of Mt 24, including vs 29 and following pertain to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, so you will have to pick your poison.

I know. My point is Darby didn't invent the doctrine that Zechariah 14 and other passages like it pertain to the literal Second Coming of Christ out of whole cloth. As we can see from church history, sometimes biblical truths can be largely (but never completely) lost.

I just wanted to correct that particular misconception.

The prophecies in Zechariah concerning Christ are believed to have been literally fulfilled or will be in the future. Yet the prophecies regarding Christ returning to Israel, like He promised to do, and the restoration of Israel's place spiritually and physically are seen as allegories that don't really mean what the Holy Spirit through Zechariah meant them to say. It seems a inconsistent method of interpretation.

Because the language of Zech 14 seems allegorical and apocalyptic.

Are there really going to be zombies walking around?

Do you really think Jesus is going to require animal sacrifices? Not according to Hebrews.

When Christ returns to the earth, which geographical location on a physical earth do you think His feet will touch down at? If He is going to return to the earth, at which location on earth?

It may be the Mount of Olives; but this passage was also literally fulfilled at His first Advent. The issue is whether this passage is talking allegorically about the ramifications of his first advent and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, or his second advent yet future.

Folks who feel it must be future say so because the Mt of Olives has not literally been split in two and the city of Jerusalem has not literally been raised up in elevation and living waters haven’t literally flown out of Jerusalem.

Or have they?🤔

I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; they shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. I WILL PLANT THEM IN THIER LAND, and no longer shall they be pulled up FROM THE LAND I HAVE GIVEN THEM, says the Lord your God. (Amos 9:14-15)

Full text of this prophecy:

Amos 9:11-15 (NKJV) --

11 "On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,”
Says the LORD who does this thing.
13 "Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
"When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15 I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,”
Says the LORD your God.

James quoted this prophecy in Acts 15:13-18 ”“

13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.’

This establishes that Amos’ prophecy relates to:

(1) The Gospel Era which began after the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus and Pentecost.

(2) The New Israel that comprises both Jewish and Gentile believers (Acts. 14:27; 15:3,8,17; Rom. 9:6-18; Gal. 3:29, 4:28).

(3) The New Covenant which is "not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (2 Cor. 3:6)”. Accordingly, circumcision under the law of Moses was not required (Acts 15:1, 28-29, Gal. 6:15).

It is noteworthy that it is the tabernacle of David at Mt. Zion (2 Sam. 5:7,9; 1 Chr. 15:1, 16:1) and NOT the temple of Solomon at Mt. Moriah what would be rebuilt (Amos 9:11, ACTS 15:16).

God did not allow David to build a temple, so the tabernacle of David was the place of worship for the greater part of David’s reign.

When David died, Solomon built the temple at Moriah and David’s tabernacle at Zion fell into ruin.

But God had promised that He would raise up David’s Seed (Christ) who would build a house for God’s name and God will establish the throne of His kingdom forever (2 Sam. 7:12-13).

Christ has pitched a heavenly tabernacle.

Heb. 8:1,2 ”“
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

The Church, which is the New Jerusalem, is called the tabernacle of God in Rev. 21:1-3, 9-10.

The church of the living God is the pillar and support of the truth. (1 Tim. 3:15).

All believers, both Jew and Gentile, are "living stones” in the spiritual house that God is building in Zion (1 Pet. 2:4-6, Eph. 2:11-22).

It is a heavenly tabernacle in heavenly Zion (Heb. 12:22-23).

It is a heavenly city that Abraham was looking for (Heb. 11:10, 16).

John 8:58 ”“
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

The blessings in AMOS 11:13-14 are only a dim shadow of the "unfathomable riches of Christ” (Eph. 3:8).

Eph. 1:3 (BLB) ”“
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the One having blessed us IN CHRIST with EVERY SPIRITUAL BLESSING IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS,

Re: AMOS 11:15 ”“
My Comment:
Nothing on this earth is permanent. Only the spiritual and the heavenly are eternal.

Col. 3:1-2 ”“
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
SET YOUR MINDS ON THE THINGS THAT ARE ABOVE, NOT ON THE THINGS THAT ARE ON EARTH.

Comment:
Why would anyone raised up with Christ and seated in heavenly places in Christ desire any part of this cursed earth that will be burned up (2 Pet. 3:10)?

PROPHECY OF CHRIST REIGNING IN THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID:

Isaiah 16:15 ”“
A throne will even be established in lovingkindness,
And a judge will sit on it in faithfulness in the tent of David;
Moreover, he will seek justice
And be prompt in righteousness.

Comment:

(1) Christ’s throne is a throne of grace (Heb. 4:16).

John 1:14 ”“
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

(2) Justice is essentially to make things right for those who are wronged.

2 Cor. 5:21 ”“
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

This is a very interesting discussion. I'd like to add that we don't know the exact or specific timing of the Lord's return.

As much as I believe that events are transpiring quickly, we are still left with a mystery regarding the exact timing of our Lord's return. After all, many believers have died waiting for our Lord's return to this earth (and many with the belief that they would live to see it).

When the nation began, many didn't see itself as a "nation." In fact, the definition of "nation" has an interesting etymology that involves united groups with shared culture, heritage and history. In early laws and legislation, it was often referred to as a "country," "land" or simply "states." These states literally "united" at the time that they declared independence from Great Britain (in 1776).

While I would suggest that the common history and increasingly powerful federal government of the United States constitutes the definition of a "nation," there are many who still argue that the U.S. is not an actual "nation." They point to the sovereignty of the states and limits to the federal government (according to the Constitution) that invoke the U.S. as more of an alliance or confederacy of states.

This was one reason why the south declared itself a "confederacy" in its name at the time of the Civil War. The south did not see itself as a nation that binds the states but as states that bound the nation.

On the other hand, I agree that the U.S. is, indeed, a nation. By the time of the Civil War, most (outside of the south and even many southerners) saw this as a nation. In fact, in the Gettysburg Address, President Lincoln addressed this:

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth, upon this continent, A NEW NATION, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether THAT NATION, or any nation so conceived, and so dedicated, can long endure."

As far as nation's go, the United States of America is very young. A hundred years ago, this nation was barely a "superpower." It wasn't until the end of World War 2 (and the advent of the atomic age) that it became the world's most powerful nation.

Many things can happen prior to the Lord's return. Nations and empires can be built and fallen in short time spans.

For centuries, Great Britain was an empire that was the world's foremost military and economic power. It's influence is still felt on the world. As the old saying went, "The sun never sets on the British Empire."

Yet, today, Britain is a singular nation. While it is still strong and influential, it has shifted from the world's greatest and most influential power to no longer being an actual "superpower." Most would argue that it should be delegated just above being just another European nation (albeit with nuclear weapons).

What does time have in store for America?

We don't know. God knows. That is all that we can say with any degree of certainty. The Bible isn't entirely clear about America in terms of Bible prophecy. We merely have individuals who interpret passages (or interpret them for the rest of us).

Some time ago, I was sitting in a discussion that morphed into a theological debate. One person brought up the "TULIP" of Calvinism and was arguing for it. The other was vehemently arguing against it. After a while, both sides wanted to know what I thought. My response? "I don't care."

I thought about it later and decided that "I don't care" was a bit too jagged and inappropriate. In fact, I do care. I care quite a bit. However, I don't see enough emphasis in Scripture on this topic to stake a binding philosophical position upon it. Rather, I see men outside of the Bible interpreting Scriptural passages to reach a specific conclusion.

I suppose that the better response is both "I don't know with any degree of absolute certainty" followed by a heartfelt "I am not concerned either way." After all, my life is focused entirely upon seeking God's face. I study over the Word daily. I spend days seeking the Lord in prayer and worshiping him. Consequently, I am more focused on knowing him than declaring some doctrinal position that (at least for me) isn't entirely clear or ultimately essential from the Lord and his Word.

I feel the same way about Bible prophecy. It would be wonderful if the Lord returned today. It would be great if he returns in my lifetime. Yet, I cannot know with any degree of certainty that this will happen. In fact, despite being relatively young, I don't even know what tomorrow will bring for me.

I listened to David Wilkerson speak once about Keith Green. This is from memory because I don't remember which message it was included in. I think that it was something that I heard in a message that I was sent from Times Square Church.

David Wilkerson and Keith Green were friends and neighbors. Yet, shortly before Keith Green died, the two were involved in a sharp dispute. In a conversation, Keith Green told David Wilkerson that God had "promised," "revealed" or "told" (I cannot remember how Mr. Wilkerson said that Mr. Green phrased it) that he would live to see his grandchildren. With that, David Wilkerson rebuked him. He reminded him that you're not even promised tomorrow (let alone decades). It apparently became a heated debate. Yet, Keith Green died in a plane crash only a short time later.

When it comes to discussion of eschatology and Bible prophecy in general or specifics, I wonder if we sometimes fall into the error of "time" for which David Wilkerson described Keith Green. Keith Green died at the age of 28. He didn't live (physically) long enough to see his grandchildren. Now, I love Keith Green and listen to his music often. However, if this account is true (and I'm not sure that Mr. Wilkerson should have even shared something so personal), it shows that even pious men who love the Lord can be confused over time and God's promises.

America may very well be a part of "every nation" mentioned in the Bible. At the same time, America -- as it is -- might not even exist by that time. There is just so much that we do not know.

Now, my response would also be to say that I pray for this nation each and every day. I pray for a revival. I pray for a revival of faith in Christ in this nation. I pray that my neighbors and fellow citizens of this temporary citizenship would turn their eyes upon Jesus.

At the same time, I am keenly aware of my own ignorance of God's timing. I know the Word. I know how some people interpret certain passages as pertaining to America. I know how it is easy to generalize certain passages as including America. What I do not know is how long this nation -- less than three centuries old -- will exist. Between the "alpha" and "omega" of this world, I don't know what will happen by the time we get closer to the "omega." Instead, I focus on knowing, loving and worshiping the Alpha and Omega -- who holds all things in his power.

Thank you for your replies and thoughts.

/ I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; they shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. I WILL PLANT THEM IN THIER LAND, and no longer shall they be pulled up FROM THE LAND I HAVE GIVEN THEM, says the Lord your God. (Amos 9:14-15)

Full text of this prophecy:

Amos 9:11-15 (NKJV) --

11 "On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,”
Says the LORD who does this thing.
13 "Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
"When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15 I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,”
Says the LORD your God.

James quoted this prophecy in Acts 15:13-18 ”“

13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.’

This establishes that Amos’ prophecy relates to:

(1) The Gospel Era which began after the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus and Pentecost./

Sure it relates to the gospel era. I would not deny that. Likewise, I think that when the elect remnant of Israel have turned to Christ it will be because of the gospel of Christ and its power to transform inwardly. They will grafted into a believing body of Christ already made up of Jews and Gentiles. How does Amos's prophecy relating to the gospel era, which I agree with, change in any way the original promises made to Israel? Being back in the land again as to never be rooted up again - this is fully contained in Amos' prophecy also. How does his prophecy relating to the gospel era change this?

/(2) The New Israel that comprises both Jewish and Gentile believers (Acts. 14:27; 15:3,8,17; Rom. 9:6-18; Gal. 3:29, 4:28)./

That goes without saying. As politely as I can say it, that's not news to any premillennialist.

Where is the term "New Israel" found in the New Testament? Why would God form a new Israel when He is not ever going to be through with the old Israel." He will ultimately transform by His saving grace the elect of Israel characterized by the fact that Gentiles are now also a part of the believing commonwealth of Israel.

The believing body of Christ is now made up of Jews and Gentiles. How does that change in any way the original promises made to Israel even regarding a future land inheritance presided over by their now returned Savior?

/(3) The New Covenant which is "not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (2 Cor. 3:6)”. Accordingly, circumcision under the law of Moses was not required (Acts 15:1, 28-29, Gal. 6:15)./

Everyone that believes that the geographical land of Israel will be occupied in the future by believing Jews believes this. It sort of baffles me why such basic 101 things are offered as if premillennialists aren't aware of them. Why did you include this? Every Christian knows this.

/It is noteworthy that it is the tabernacle of David at Mt. Zion (2 Sam. 5:7,9; 1 Chr. 15:1, 16:1) and NOT the temple of Solomon at Mt. Moriah what would be rebuilt (Amos 9:11, ACTS 15:16).

God did not allow David to build a temple, so the tabernacle of David was the place of worship for the greater part of David’s reign.

When David died, Solomon built the temple at Moriah and David’s tabernacle at Zion fell into ruin.

But God had promised that He would raise up David’s Seed (Christ) who would build a house for God’s name and God will establish the throne of His kingdom forever (2 Sam. 7:12-13)./

All this in heaven or is there an earthly aspect to this?

/Christ has pitched a heavenly tabernacle./

Yes He has pitched a heavenly tabernacle, but why is He going to return to earth? When He returns, at which physical geographical location on the earth will He set His feet on?

/The Church, which is the New Jerusalem, is called the tabernacle of God in Rev. 21:1-3, 9-10.

The church of the living God is the pillar and support of the truth. (1 Tim. 3:15).

All believers, both Jew and Gentile, are "living stones” in the spiritual house that God is building in Zion (1 Pet. 2:4-6, Eph. 2:11-22).

It is a heavenly tabernacle in heavenly Zion (Heb. 12:22-23).

It is a heavenly city that Abraham was looking for (Heb. 11:10, 16).

John 8:58 ”“
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."/

I see the heavenly city not so much as a far away realm of spirituality only but a city FROM heaven and not IN heaven only. Abraham and none of the patriarchs and prophets expressed their only hope as one day being safe in God's far away heaven. The coming kingdom to them was a kingdom on this earth made heavenly by the transformation that it will undergo. God promised Abraham personally that he and his descendants would posses a certain land forever and walk in it. Since Abraham knew he would eventually die, he knew his own resurrection would have to occur for this to happen. This was why He rejoiced to see Jesus' day because someone was going to have to come that would erase sin and death.

/The blessings in AMOS 11:13-14 are only a dim shadow of the "unfathomable riches of Christ” (Eph. 3:8)./

- "Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
"When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,

- And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.

- I will bring back the captives of My people Israel

- They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;

- They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;

- They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.

How does the "unfathomable riches in Christ" help me build waste cities and inhabit and live in them? How does being in Christ help me plant gardens and eat fruit from them? This type of allegorical definition of prophecy might be feasible if it didn't change entirely the meaning of Amos' original prophecy. But let's not stop at the blessings contained in verses 13-14. Let's include the final verse of the chapter:

9:15 I WILL PLANT THEM IN THEIR LAND, and no longer shall they be pulled up FROM THE LAND I HAVE GIVEN THEM, says the Lord your God.

What if Amos was not speaking allegorically? What if he literally prophesied of literal events and things? And if the body of Christ is now made up of Jews and Gentiles, which it is, how does the change the original meaning of prophecies as they were given and understood by the hearers of Amos?

Thank you again. Please see my next post - The Spiritual Vision Model versus the New Creation Model. I believe, along with a growing rejection of allegorical prophetical interpretation that many are beginning to realize that when one says a heavenly country etc., it does not mean in heaven only but will have a largely earthly aspect to it also. Earth by the power of God. Heaven is coming here. This in my opinion, is much more closer to the biblical Hebrew world view than the earthly is inferior model that a large part of modern Christianity follows.

More later. Thank you again good bro. Comments welcome.

In the Hebrew biblical world view, the land and the earth were not an inferior sphere just to one day be delivered from into an entirely spiritual realm and existence (the Spiritual Vision Model). The coming kingdom of God under the prophesied Savior who was to come was to have a very large and central earthly aspect to it (the New Creation Model). Many interpreters of prophecy have fixed their eyes on the heavenly only. There is a growing trend away from this type of interpretation.

Likewise and in keeping, a future redeemed Israel living in an EARTHLY LAND would not be them living in an early and inferior realm and existence because, in the biblical view, physical creation, including earth and land, is not inferior.

The Spirituality of Materiality in the Old Testament

Not only is the OT revelation a transcript of the truth God communicated through a Hebrew prism, but also it reveals visceral earthiness and admiration of the imminent creation that is in confluence with transcendent spirituality reaching to God's glorious throne in heaven. As George Eldon Ladd explained:

"Hebrew thought saw an essential unity between man and nature. The prophets do not think of earth as merely the indifferent theater om which a man carries out his normal task but as the expression of the divine glory. The Old Testament nowhere holds forth the hope of a bodiless, non-material, purely "spiritual” redemption as did Greek thought. The earth is the divinely ordained scene of human existence. Furthermore, the earth has been involved in the evils which sin has incurred. There is an interrelation of nature with the moral life of man; therefore the earth must also share in God's final redemption....The fact that man is a physical creature is not the measure of his sinfulness and therefore a state from which he must be delivered. Rather, the acceptance of his creaturehood and the confession of complete and utter dependence upon the Creator God are essential to man's true existence....Salvation for man does not mean deliverance from creaturehood, for it is not an evil thing but an essential and permanent element of man's true being. Salvation does not mean escape from bodily, creaturely existence. On the contrary, ultimate redemption will mean the redemption of the whole man. For this reason, the resurrection of the body is an integral part of the biblical hope."

(G. E. Ladd, The Presence of the Future (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974). 59-60; also pp.63-64.)

Similarly, from a Hebrew Christian perspective, Baruch Maoz commented:

"It is true that redemption from sin is not to be conceived of in terms that are primarily material. On this point the New Testament is as clear as the Old, though much more emphatic. But salvation is not to be thought of as exclusively spiritual and moral, as if Israel's living in the land had no moral implications! The gospel message is replete with appreciation for the material realm. The New Testament makes it quite clear that the material is the arena in which ultimate salvation is to take place (Rom 8:18-25). thus reconfirming Old Testament expectation. Even our bodies are to be redeemed."

(B Maoz, "People, land and Torah: A Jewish Christian perspective,” in The Land of Promise (ed. P. Johnston and P. Walker; Downer's Grove, Ill.; InterVarsity, 2000), 196.)

The Redemption of Spirituality and Materiality

"In rejecting the Platonic/Augustinian eschatological dichtomy between inferior, earthly materiality and superior, heavenly spirituality, the preferred alternative of both earthly materialty and heavenly spirituality in holy union should be carefully understood. Craig Blaising describes this essential distinction in the millennial debate in a manner that is well worth consideration at this juncture. He speaks of "Two Models of Eternal Life," the "Spiritual Vision Model," which is the presupposition or "preunderstanding" of amillennialism, and the "New Creation Model," which is the presupposition of premillennialism. The Spiritual Vision Model, understands the "final state of the resurrected" as being in heaven. Advocates of this view base it not only on 'biblical themes,
but also on cultural ideas common to the classical philosophical tradition. That tradition has contributed to the spiritual vision model in three basic convictions: (1) a basic contrast between spirit and matter; (2) an identification of spirit with mind or intellect; and (3) a belief that eternal perfection entails the absence of change. Central to all three of these is the classical tradition's notion of an ontological hierarchy in which spirit is located at the top of a descending order of being. Elemental matter occupies the lowest place. In the spiritual vision of eternity, heaven is the highest level of ontological reality. It is the realm of spirit as opposed to base matter. This is the destiny of the saved, who will exist in that non earthly, spiritual place as spiritual beings engaged eternally in spiritual activity....Following the classical tradition's identification of spirit with mind or intellect, the spiritual model views eternal life primarily as cognitive, meditative, or contemplative. With this point of emphasis, the place or realm of eternal life is really a secondary or inconsequential matter. In its essential reality, eternal life is a state of knowing [God]."

On the other hand, the "New Creation Model"

"draws on biblical texts that speak of a future everlasting kingdom, of a new earth and the renewal of life on it, of bodily resurrection (especially of the nature of Christ's resurrection body), of social and even political concourse among the redeemed. The new creation model expects that the ontological order and scope of eternal life is essentially continuous with that of present earthly life except for the absence of sin and death. Eternal life for redeemed human beings will be an embodied life on earth (whether the present earth or a wholly new earth), set within a cosmic structure such as we have presently. It is not a timeless, static existence but rather an unending sequence of life and lived experiences. It does not reject physicality or materiality, but affirms them as essential both to a holistic anthropology and to the biblical idea of a redeemed creation."

In other words concerning this more biblical perspective, materiality is not ultimately to be transcended, but rather transformed. Such a transformation is to be the rebirth that ushers in "the Messianic age [ palingenesia, "regeneration"], when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne...judging the 12 tribes of Israel" (Matt 19:28). Then there will be a "new heaven and a new earth" (Isa 65:17, 66:22), that is, a spiritually renewed earth and cosmic order. Through the triumph of sovereign grace, both human and nonhuman aspects of creation, animate and inanimate, will be greatly blessed beyond the state of things prior to the transgression of Adam and Eve.

(Future Israel - Why Christian Anti-Judaism Must Be Challenged - Horner, B&H Academic, Nashville, TN, p 213-214)

//Future Israel - Why Christian Anti-Judaism Must Be Challenged - Horner, B&H Academic, Nashville, TN, p 213-214)//

A true Christian is not against Jewish people, nor any race of people.

But even God is against Judaism, as he is against Muhammadism and Hinduism and Shintoism and every other ism that does center on Jesus Christ.

Do you think in the New Creation that Jews will be offering animal sacrifices in a temple?

Being back in the land again as to never be rooted up again …………

I assume you mean the land on this old earth. If they would never be rooted up again, wouldn’t they be destroyed with the earth when it is burnt up?

2 Pet. 3:10 ”“
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

…………the original promises made to Israel

Which scripture are you referring to?

Thanks.

More later.

Blessings

We have been going around in circles for decades discussing this topic.
But I still want to add some basic important scriptures.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
If it is One Body (the Bride) plus...-that is a false Gospel

"The believing body of Christ is now made up of Jews and Gentiles. How does that change in any way the original promises made to Israel even regarding a future land inheritance presided over by their now returned Savior?"
The original promises were made to Abraham and His seed (Christ) NOT to the nation of Israel.

"Israel" started with Jacob, had about 12 tribes (some half tribes)It fell apart soon after King David

"A true Christian is not against Jewish people, nor any race of people."
I have a Jewish name and ancestors. I'm not against myself !

But through Christ I'm a new creation, part of One Body.
As a believer I'm no longer Jew or Greek or Gentile.
After Paul was converted Christ and the Gospel became everything to him.

May this one day be true for all of us !

Blessings
Markus
Edit: removed some comments

John 16:10

New International Version

I have other sheep (Gentiles) that are not of this sheep pen (Believing Jews). I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Amen

Where is the term "New Israel" found in the New Testament? Why would God form a new Israel when He is not ever going to be through with the old Israel

Old Israel, i.e., Israel of the Old Testament and the Old Covenant.
New Israel, i.e., Israel of the New Testament and the New Covenant.

Perhaps I should say the "true Israel” instead of New Israel (Rom. 9:6-8, Gal. 3:29, 4:28).

Heb. 8:13 ”“
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Comment:
If the Old Covenant is obsolete and has disappeared, wouldn’t everything based on it become obsolete and disappear too?

The Lord Jesus said to the chief priests and Pharisees:

Matt. 21:43 ”“
"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”

It is given to the true Israel (Rom. 9:6-8) comprising believers in Christ, both Jew and Gentiles, who can bear fruit for God by abiding in Christ (John 15).

Rom. 7:4 ”“
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

The believing body of Christ is now made up of Jews and Gentiles. How does that change in any way the original promises made to Israel even regarding a future land inheritance presided over by their now returned Savior?

Can you give the scripture for these "original promises”? Thanks.

It sort of baffles me why such basic 101 things are offered as if premillennialists aren't aware of them. Why did you include this? Every Christian knows this.

It means that Amos’ prophecy is for Israel of the New Covenant in the New Testament and NOT for Israel of the Old Covenant in the Old Testament.

All this in heaven or is there an earthly aspect to this?

The Lord Jesus said:

John 18:36 ”“
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

Yes He has pitched a heavenly tabernacle, but why is He going to return to earth? When He returns, at which physical geographical location on the earth will He set His feet on?

When the Lord Jesus returns "like a thief”, "at an hour that you do not expect (Luke 12:40)”, this existing earth will be burnt up.

2 Pet. 3:10 ”“
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Since this old earth will be burned up, I suggest He will set His feet on the New Earth with His bride the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21 & 22).

God promised Abraham personally that he and his descendants would posses a certain land forever and walk in it.

Yes, his descendants re:

Rom. 9:6-8.
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

And that land is in the heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 1:3).

How does the "unfathomable riches in Christ" help me build waste cities and inhabit and live in them? How does being in Christ help me plant gardens and eat fruit from them?

It is being rescued from the domain of darkness and transferred into the kingdom of God’s beloved Son (Col. 1:13). It is being delivered from this cursed ground where in toil we eat of it all the days of our lives (Gen. 3:17-19) and brought into the Lord Jesus’ banqueting hall. It is having our water turned into wine (John 2).

When the Lord Jesus told the Jews that He is the Bread of Life, the Jews said, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat (John 6)?”

Peter was a Jew. His hope certainly was not some land on this earth.

He wrote that the prophets predicted the sufferings of Christ and the GLORIES to follow (1 Pet. 1:10-12).

This was what he looked for:

2 Pet. 3:13 ”“
But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Paul was also a Jew. He did not preach that the hope of Israel was some land on this earth. Paul preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ

………the original meaning of prophecies as they were given and understood by the hearers of Amos?

Acts 13:27 ”“
"For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the utterances of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him.

………a growing rejection of allegorical prophetical interpretation that

Far from rejecting allegorical interpretation, Paul gave an example of it re: Gal. 4:22-31.

I haven't forgotten you good people and some of the replies I intend to make if time permits me. I have just been busy and have not been able to find time as of yet. I'm working on it. My apologies.

Thank you.

Heb. 8:13 ”“
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Comment:
If the Old Covenant is obsolete and has disappeared, wouldn’t everything based on it become obsolete and disappear too?

I am not asking this to challenge you but to genuinely undersstand. Even the preacher whom I hear frequently interprets Heb 8:13 the way you did it.

But no where I read in this verse that OC is disappeared. It only says ready to disappear. That is exactly what obsolete means.

In computer programming languages when a feature is no longer needed or upgraded to a new feature then the old feature will first be marked as obsolete. Which means new programmers are not advised to use it but old old programs written using the feature will still perform well.

This is exactly how I see Heb 8:13 mean. People who still live under OC can continue but God has given something better for people to follow even though he still honors his Old Covenant. God is a covenant honoring God.

Sree- I am not sure if I understand what you mean.

Did God endorse the OT system as well as the new covenant?

Obviously not, as he destroyed the OT system in 70 AD. He didn’t seem sentimental about it at all.

Obviously not, as he destroyed the OT system in 70 AD. He didn’t seem sentimental about it at all.

If we use what happened in 70 AD then we can also use what happened during Babylonian exile that happened few hundred years before it.

I cannot find scripturally that God does not honor Old Covenant. Covenant is a contract and God cannot cancel it.

I still believe that God is concerned about Israel. I still believe it is this protection from God that keeps them safe in the midst of hatred from all surrounding Islamic nations.

I believe NC is way higher than OC and God does not want anyone to live under the standard of OC but he does not disown them either.

Again I am not challenging anyother views, but I am just placing my view. I am willing to change if there is a concrete explanation of why people believe OC is abolished.

Hebrews 8 seems to answer the question unless you are referencing something different when you say "old covenant.”

Hebrews 8 seems to answer the question unless you are referencing something different when you say "old covenant.”

If you see my response in this threat, I have clearly quoted Heb 8:13 and said it never mentions that OC is abolished. I believe this is a Church teaching that no one questioned and no one cared to check the scripture for proof. It is just an agreed concept. But I do not come from a Church background but a nonChristian background.

To me Old Covenant means God's promise to Israel that he will be their God. He will protect them. If they live according to 10 commandments then God will still honor his promise of physical blessings.

I do believe New Covenant is a higher standard than Old Covenant as much as Jesus is higher than Moses. God does not intend anyone to live under old Covenant. But he still honors his promise.

//He will protect them. If they live according to 10 commandments then God will still honor his promise of physical blessings.//

Do you think this applies to spiritual blessing or strictly physical?

The thing that bothers me about your statement is that good law-abiding Jews are just as hellbound as those that are entirely secular. The OC does nothing for them.

We all know that many many Jewish people in the US are very successful. I know many. It almost seems that if God "blesses” them for being good religious Jews He is lulling them into false security. Art Katz talked often about how the successful Jewish people are totally anti- Christ.

Do you think this applies to spiritual blessing or strictly physical?

Except the 10th commandment all other laws under OC are all external and also the blessings are earthly (External) not spiritual. So I clearly cannot comment on the eternal salvation of a God fearing Jew.

The thing that bothers me about your statement is that good law-abiding Jews are just as hellbound as those that are entirely secular. The OC does nothing for them.

If this is true then what makes us believe that Moses and David are in heaven?

I believe they were saved looking at Christ who is to come and we are saved looking at Christ who came and took our sins.

So if these Godly men under OC were saved by looking on to coming of Christ then what makes us not to believe that a law abiding and God fearing Jew today can be saved by looking into the Christ who came even though he directly does not confess Jesus?

We all know that many many Jewish people in the US are very successful. I know many. It almost seems that if God "blesses” them for being good religious Jews He is lulling them into false security. Art Katz talked often about how the successful Jewish people are totally anti- Christ.

It is a good logic but the same logic can also be applied to God who said he makes the sun shine on both righteous and unrighteous is also luring them into false security!

I still believe the earthly success of Jews is based on God honoring OC. But by doing good God is luring them to accept his complete salvation in Christ. If any Jew is truly fearing God, God will then direct him towards Christ for complete salvation under NC.

//So if these Godly men under OC were saved by looking on to coming of Christ then what makes us not to believe that a law abiding and God fearing Jew today can be saved by looking into the Christ who came even though he directly does not confess Jesus? //

Sree, I generally agree with your thoughts or at least don’t vehemently disagree, but your statement above is quite startling in light of Paul’s teaching on the matter.

Gal. 3:16-19 ”“
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
WHY THE LAW THEN? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, UNTIL the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

v.22-24 ”“
But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

WHY THE LAW THEN? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, UNTIL the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

I think what you mean here is Law was given only until CHrist was revealed. Law is a tutor to lead us to Christ.

But this does not mean God has abolished the law. These verses only talk about a believer in relation to Law not in general Law being abolished.

Romans 7:4 - 4Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

It is clear that only a believer in relation to Law to which he was married to has died to be freed from law but Law did not die or was abolished.

Like the verses you quoted God uses OC to lead people to Christ for spiritual blessing but if they are unwilling to come to Christ then God still honors OC and blesses them physically.

but if they are unwilling to come to Christ then God still honors OC and blesses them physically.

Where in scripture is that written??

Acts 17:30 ”“
………God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Acts 24:47 ”“
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Gal. 4:30 ”“
Nevertheless what does the Scripture say?
"Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”

ADD:
The Old Covenant became obsolete and disappeared in AD 70 when the temple was destroyed and all the priests killed and Old Covenant worship is no longer possible.

Where in scripture is that written??

The other way round, I want scriptural proof from you. Old Testament is full of promises for Israel. For those who keep the laws. For example Deuteronomy 30 is full of God's blessing when Israel obeys God's laws. All these blessings are earthly blessing. Not spiritual.

Now does God still bless those who are under OC with physical blessing? If you believe it is not so then you need to provide a scripture to prove that God will no longer honor his promise to Israel.

I am not challenging you, I personally feel that this view of OC being abolished is just a teaching that is widely accepted without proper investigation. If there is a clear backing of scripture then I am willing to accept it. I am not calling it wrong, I am just asking how people derived this belief.

The Old Covenant became obsolete and disappeared in AD 70 when the temple was destroyed and all the priests killed and Old Covenant worship is no longer possible.

The temple was also destroyed by Babylonians during the exile of Jews. Did God obsolete Old Covenant that time as well because there was no more temple or Old Covenant worship? So destruction of temple is not a sign of God giving up his covenant. Again what is the scriptural proof of this 70AD?

Again you might be right, I am not denying it. I am just looking for sound scripture or logical explanation for this belief that Old Covenant is abolished. Please do not take it personal.

Some posters expressed a consternation that Barry Horner used this term as part of the subtitle of his book "Future Israel" and in various places in the book. His explanation follows:

"Concerning terminology, a word of explanation is necessary. Instead of the common emotive term of anti-Semitism" being employed, which is often qualified as either racial or theological, the more specific "anti-Judaism" is mainly used. Nevertheless, even anti-Judaism needs explication. Here it is intended to refer to classic anti-Judaism, which involves opposition to the biblical legacy of Torah mediated through Abraham and Moses rather than opposition to the Rabbinic and Talmudic accretions that Jesus Christ so vigorously opposed, though doubtless some overlap will nevertheless be involved. The use of "anti-Zionism" will more narrowly focus on opposition to the recent establishment of the nation of modern Israel. With regard to the Augustinian legacy of Israel's displacement by the Christian church as the new spiritual Israel, the accepted terms of "replacement theology" and "supercessionism" will be used interchangeably. Some authors vigorously renounce association with these designations, and often attempt to argue against their validity. Nevertheless, for all such verbal ducking and weaving by those who are supercessionists, they are unable to obscure obvious identification with the same essential anti-Judaic spirit that substitutes concepts such as "progression," "transference," and "fulfillment."

"In a nutshell then, the issue here concerns whether Israel, incorporating individuality, nationality, and territory, has a future according to the mind of Abraham's God."

("Future Israel" - Personal Introduction, pg 19-20, by Barry Horner)

"And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, and from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed." Revelation 7:4-8

We would be at disagreement on the turn out/end result of the above scripture depending on our end time views, but I assure you the apostle John did say this. However concerning, this futuristic view in discussion. I'm with all respect, not seeing it's impact on us here and now. We sincerely have a ton to deal with right now, and I'm just not seeing the urgency you are respectfully.

Hi Sree,

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

The Book of Hebrews was written before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Old Covenant worship was still existing as the temple was still standing and there were still the High Priest and priests to serve as mediators of the Old Covenant.

When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, these happened:

(1) The temple was destroyed as the Lord Jesus predicted in Matt. 24:1-2.
(2) All the priests and High Priest were killed, and the mediators of the Old Covenant were wiped out.

With the temple and the priests gone, can the Old Covenant remain? Certainly not.

From 70 AD to this present day, without the temple and the priests, Old Covenant worship is NO LONGER POSSIBLE. How then can God honor the OC and bless anyone physically?

The temple was also destroyed by Babylonians during the exile of Jews. Did God obsolete Old Covenant that time as well because there was no more temple or Old Covenant worship? So destruction of temple is not a sign of God giving up his covenant.

It was the coming of the New Covenant that made the Old Covenant obsolete. The destruction of the temple sealed its fate.

The New Covenant was ushered in by the death and resurrection of Christ.

In the period from the return from the Babylonian captivity to the death and resurrection of Christ, the New Covenant was not yet instituted, so the Old Covenant remained.

Blessings

Hi William,

Yes, the apostle John did say that.

The Book of Revelation is highly symbolic.

How about this interpretation:

New Israel of God started with the remnant of old Israel. This was a very small number that could be counted (Rev. 7:4-8).

After that, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and tribes and peoples and tongues, was added to the new Israel of God (Rev. 7:9-10).

Blessings

"To recover the truth about the identity of Israel it is necessary to go back to the actual text of the New Testament and see how the apostles used the term Israel. This is the only legitimate basis for a scripturally accurate use of this term. Ever since the canon of Scripture was closed, no subsequent writer or preacher has been authorized to change the usage established by the New Testament writers. Any writer or preacher who introduces a different application of the term Israel forfeits the right to claim scriptural authority for what he or she has to say about Israel."

"I have discovered seventy-nine instances in the New Testament where the words Israel or Israelite occur. After examining them all, I conclude that the apostles never used Israel as a synonym for the church."

"Nor does the phrase "new Israel" occur anywhere in the New Testament. Preachers who use that phrase should take care to define their use of it. They should also state it is not found in the Bible."

(From "Prophetic Destinies" - by Derek Prince. Copyright 1992. Ch 1 - "The Destiny of Israel and the Church," pg 15)

Hi BranchinVINE,

Please allow me to add a few things.

From 70 AD to this present day, without the temple and the priests, Old Covenant worship is NO LONGER POSSIBLE. How then can God honor the OC and bless anyone physically?

I'd cautiously point out that there is a difference between the LAW and the COVENANT.

- The Covenant was made with Abraham.
- The Law was made at the time of Moses.

At the time that God spoke to Moses from the bush (that did not burn) at Sinai, more than HALF A MILLENNIUM (around 600 years) had passed since God made his covenant with Abraham.

In fact, when God spoke to Moses at Sinai, He said, "I have certainly seen the oppression of MY PEOPLE who are in Egypt, and have heard their outcry..." (Exodus 3:7).

I would point out that the Temple was ransacked, looted and forgotten several times between Solomon and the diasporic Captivity. While there were several restorations of the Temple and Temple service (by Josiah, Hezekiah, etc.), these eventually became temporary for Judah (and nearly all of Israel was in rebellion almost the entire time).

At one point, King Hezekiah had to pray for forgiveness for the people because they didn't follow the purification rules of the sanctuary and still ate the Passover (II Chronicles 30:18-19). This was (partially) because there was just so few priests and Levites and the practice of the Law (including the feast observances) was forgotten.

After King Hezekiah prayed for forgiveness, the Bible says, "So the Lord heard Hezekiah and healed the people" (II Chronicles 30:20).

My point is very small, but the Temple is not required for the Covenant to exist. While the Law (which is sometimes rhetorically intertwined with the "Covenant" and even called as much), the Covenant predates the Law. They aren't exactly one and the same. Before the Temple, there was a Tabernacle. Before the Tabernacle, there was simply faith in God's promise.

I would point out that Romans 11 makes it very clear that Israel has not been rejected. Moreover, it is clear in context that Paul is referring to physical Israel. In fact, after mentioning how Israel had faltered and done wrong, they did not "fall."

Paul wrote, "I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? Far from it! But by their wrongdoing salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous" (Romans 11:11). It is in this context that Paul mentions how believers who are "chosen" Gentiles are "grafted" into the olive tree (verse 17). In other words, this "tree" of that promise STILL EXISTED so that we could be grafted into it.

There is a verse in this chapter that is often cited (especially by Calvinists) -- but often out of context. It stated, "...for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29). In context, it is clear that Paul is referring to physical Israel:

For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery””so that you will not be wise in your own estimation””that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
"This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.

For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.

Notice that Paul says that "in relation to God's CHOICE they are beloved." I feel that this is in reference to being chosen as a people due to God's promise to Abraham.

//And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matthew 3:9-10//

Chris- It is verses like this that give me pause as to what you are saying.

Sure they have an old Covenant but it gets them *nothing* unless they repent and believe in Jesus Christ. Of course if they do that they are obviously "in.”

Right now they are dangerously "out.”

I think it is dangerous language to say that non-believing Jews are somehow in God’s favor because of an OC promise. They are no more in God’s favor than atheists or any other "-ist” or "ism”.

Hi TMK,

Please don't think that I said that the physical seed of Abraham don't need to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. I think that this is exceptionally clear. In fact, I don't think that the Covenant -- based upon the promise to Abraham -- has anything necessarily to do with eternal salvation.

There is no "get out of Hell" card just because someone is a seed of Abraham. After all, even during the time of Moses, there were plenty of Israelites who did despicable things. The ground even opened up and, as Keith Green once put it, "had some of them for lunch." Later, Israel had kings who led the people astray. Not only did they NOT honor the Covenant and ignored the Law of Moses, but they even served other gods.

At one point, Elijah fled from Jezebel to Mt. Sinai/Horeb -- the birthplace of the Mosaic law. He went into the cave. After he heard the "gentle whisper" or "still small voice," Elijah covered himself and went to the mouth of the cave. For a second time, God asked him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" (I Kings 19:9-13).

The rhetorical basis of this question isn't emphasized. The emphasis could be particular. For instance, consider this:

"WHAT are you doing here, Elijah?"
"What are YOU doing here, Elijah?"
"What are you DOING here, Elijah?"
"What are you doing HERE, Elijah?"

The question kind of takes a different meaning based upon the emphasis. It could be all of the above. However, I've been focusing on the latter ("What are you doing HERE, Elijah?").

I think that Elijah had effectively gone "back to the beginning" -- in the sense of the Law. After all, this was the "One of Sinai" speaking from the "Mountain of God" (Ezekiel 28:14; Exodus 24:13; Judges 5:1-5; etc.).

Elijah's response?

He said, "I have been very zealous for the Lord, the God of armies; for the sons of Israel have abandoned Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they have sought to take my life" (I Kings 19:14).

God immediately responded to Elijah by telling him to return back -- and to reassure him that there were (or would be) 7,000 who had not bowed their knee to Baal (verses 15-18).

There are a couple of things that I get from this. For one, the Covenant of God existed even at a point when almost everyone in Israel had forsaken or forgotten God (and nearly all had bowed to Baal). However, I also think that God was pointing out to Elijah that the Covenant was not in the Mountain, its holy history or even in the law that was forged there.

In fact, I would ponder whether the Covenant required obedience at all. The Children of Israel were chosen and made heirs of the Covenant before the Law. However, even though they were "chosen," they still faced the consequences of their sins. They still needed salvation.

As such, the Covenant with Abraham did not place all such names in the Book of Life. Rather, it simply meant that God had chosen them.

As for the favor of God, the Scriptures address this when Paul wrote, "In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but IN RELATION TO GOD'S CHOICE THEY ARE BELOVED on account of the fathers; FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE" (Romans 11:28-29).

Obviously, there is a question about the extent of what this means. As I said, it doesn't apply to salvation -- because no one can come to the Father except by the Son (John 14:6).

In fact, we often forget that when Peter was preaching on the Day of Pentecost and saying, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself" (Acts 2:38-39), he was speaking directly to Jews in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost.

However, we know that Gentile believers are grafted into this Romans 11:17 vine/tree of being "chosen." That tree existed and Gentile believers were grafted into it becoming "partakers with them." Gentile believers did not replace the vine/tree but, instead, were grafted into it. Paul pointed out that believing Jews would also be grafted back into it (verse 23-24).

In terms of salvation, those under the old Covenant must be saved. However, the Covenant -- obsolete that it is for believers under a newer and better Covenant -- was everlasting. It has not (yet) disappeared (Hebrews 8:13).

So, just as there is a difference between the Covenant and the Law, there is a difference between being a part of one side of that Covenant and being "saved." Does this make more sense?

Thanks Chris- nicely put.

What do you think the OC "guarantees” to Jews today?

Hi TMK,

What do you think the OC "guarantees” to Jews today?

To be clear: I don't know.

I will point out that the purest basis for the Old Covenant was not in the Law of Moses but in an actual promise that God made to Abraham.

This is found in Genesis 15:1-20.

In this chapter, God promises to Abraham that he would have a physical descendent -- and become a patriarch for many (verse 4). Abraham had been concerned that he was fatherless and that everything he owned -- all of God's blessings -- would simply go to a servant (Eliezer of Damascus).

So, in this covenant that God made with Abraham, he promised Abraham:

- Great reward (verse 1);
- A physical descendant (verse 4);
- Many descendants (verse 5);
- Land (verses 7 and 18-20).

The promise was verified by the covenant sacrifice of five animals -- a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove and a young pigeon (verses 8-11).

I'm not absolutely sure if all of these promises are still binding in that covenant. However, Hebrews 8:13 indicates that the Covenant has not disappeared. So, if the basis of that old Covenant was "great reward," "descendants" and this specific promised "land," then I would argue that this may still be true.

There is a great deal of contention in the Middle East in the land that was promised to Abraham and his descendants.

At the time of the Captivity, few believed that the sons of Israel would ever return to the land that was promised (i.e., the "Promised Land"). Yet, in the Year of our Lord 1948, descendants of Abraham did return to that land. By 1967, the borders were back to what they had been under David (including the Golan parts of Syria).

Thus, there are many believers who believe that the specific promissory portions of the Old Covenant -- descendants for Abraham through Isaac and the Promised Land -- still apply.

Are these (still) guaranteed? I don't know.

However, it is anecdotal to see that not even a Holocaust and long-term diaspora following the Captivity was able to bring that promise to a close.

Moreover, Jesus was born, died and was resurrected in the land. When John had his revelation (in roughly 90 A.D.), he spoke of Israel and places in Israel in a future sense. This was nearly 60 years after Jesus was crucified and risen and about two decades after the Temple was destroyed.

docs,

Does Israel in Rom. 9:6-8 refer to the earthly nation of Israel or to the Church?

Rom.9:6-8 ”“
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect.
For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Gal. 4:28 ”“
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

Gal. 3:26-29 ”“
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal. 3:7 ”“
Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

Rom. 2:28-29 ”“
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

If you object to "new Israel" , how about "true Israel"?

Thank you, Christopher.

It is good that we are delving deeper into scripture.

The Bible is the only firm foundation.

I will reply when free.

For that matter, where is the phrase "true Israel" found in the New Testament?" I understand what you are saying, but if one uses true Israel while meaning the same thing they meant when using new Israel, then what is the difference?

New Israel (or true Israel) has, in my opinion, come to mean that those of the Jews and Gentiles who have believed have now become the church and the church therefore replaces the nation of Israel in God's plan. Thus nullifying some of the very specific promises originally made to Abraham, especially in regards to an eventual LAND inheritance. In the midset of the western world and much of Christendom, land is seen as inferior to the spiritual or heavenly. This was not so in the biblical Hebrew mindset.

Quoting,

"The heavenly country is not a country IN heaven, but a country FROM heaven. The heavenly kingdom is the kingdom from heaven and not the kingdom in heaven...Though heaven is the happy abode of the disembodied righteous during the present age, in the age to come heaven comes to earth...This doctrine enables us to answer the best argument of both pre and post millennialists. What is this argument? It is the countless Old Testament and New Testament prophecies that clearly prophesy a future, earthly kingdom. In the past, those opposing millenarianism often failed to satisfactorily interpret such passages. They attempted to apply them to the church in the present age or to heaven. Such interpretations did not make sense to many good people. They shouldn't have! They were wrong. Only the doctrine of the new earth [Isa 65-66] provides a proper interpretation of such passages." (From "The End Times Made Simple" - Sam Waldron - copyright 1993, 225-41)

I don't believe everything Brother Waldron advocates today, but his quotes are a good example of a growing trend to re-examine how many Old Testament prophecies and passages have been historically interpreted in an over spiritualized over allegorical manner. Much of this type of interpretation came as a result of the belief that the church has replaced Israel. I believe God promised Abraham (later to become Israel through the 12 sons and tribes), a very specific promise of a Savior to come (in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed) and later a very specific land promise (Gen 15:18-21).

It's my belief, and I believe the testimony of scripture, that one day, in God's heavenly kingdom come to earth, that the nation of Israel will become the theocratic head of the nations under the headship of a returned Christ (Isa 2:1-4 etc.). I don't believe that the believing church of today, made up of Jews and Gentiles, one new man, has replaced, cancelled, or nullified these literal promises. It's presumption and Gentile arrogance that has advocated that Israel has been replaced because we believe and they don't. God is a covenant keeping God and will yet open the eyes of blind Israel. All of the elect remnant of Israel are yet to be saved. What God promised to Abraham covenant will yet transpire. To get around this, fanciful spiritual sounding allegorical interpretations have CHANGED and REPLACED the original meaning of many prophecies. And all the while, Abraham and none of the prophets ever expressed the desire and belief that their final destiny was to one day go and abide in a far off celestial realm of existence. To them, the coming kingdom of God would be on the earth.

No Jew of that day will be part of the kingdom just because they are Jews or sons of Abraham. All will have to enter the kingdom by way of the cross, just like all have been required to do. It won't be a new Israel, but the same old Israel transformed inwardly by the new birth. They will be new in that sense.

Many years after his conversion, Paul was speaking to the Jerusalem mob and said,

"I AM INDEED A JEW, born in Tarsus of Cilcia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel"...(Acts 22:3). He didn't say he wasn't a Jew because he was now in Christ where there is no Jew or Gentile. A Jew does not cease being a Jew when he comes to Christ where there is no Jew or Gentile. Something different must have been meant by that verse than what we have ascribed to it. Gentiles don't cease being Gentiles when they become part of the body of Christ. I believe it is the same with the ancient prophecies given to the Jewish nation, all to be fulfilled in a earthly context. They don't have their original meaning changed because there is now a believing church made up of Jews and Gentiles.

I didn't mean to go on this long. Sometimes it just happened. Blessings to you, thank you for your patience with me and I appreciate the time you have taken to reply and comment to me. Thank you.

David-

Per Gen. 15:18-21, didn’t God already fulfill this promise?

Hi BranchinVINE,

Thanks. I will something else to think about:

Gal. 3:7 ”“
Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

I think that this is a mistranslation from the NKJV. The word "only" does not appear in any other major version.

KJV:
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

NASB:
Therefore, recognize that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

NIV:
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

Still, I think that it is a good context for the original Covenant between God and Abraham (from Genesis 15). I believe that Paul is explaining that the basis of the original Covenant is FAITH.

In context:

1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

4 Did you suffer so many things in vain””if indeed it was in vain?

5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

6 Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

7 Therefore, recognize that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you.”

9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

- Galatians 3:1-9 (NASB)

Paul is citing the original Covenant that God made with Abraham in Genesis 15. Here is the basis of the Covenant in context:

After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying,

"Do not fear, Abram,
I am a shield to you;
Your reward shall be very great.”

2 But Abram said, "Lord God, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”

3 Abram also said, "Since You have given me no son, one who has been born in my house is my heir.”

4 Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.”

5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be.”

6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He credited it to him as righteousness.

- Genesis 15:1-6 (NASB)

In my previous posts, I attempted to differentiate between the Law (also known as the Covenant Law) and the original Covenant with Abraham. The Law of Moses was subsequent to the original covenants made between God and Abraham.

The Covenant Law of Moses was conditional to obedience. The original Covenant with Abraham was not. It was based upon faith (i.e., "Then he believe in the Lord; and He credited it to him as righteousness" [Genesis 15:6; Galatians 3:6]).

When God made this original covenant with Abraham, there were no "if" conditions attached to it. This covenant was created more than 600 years before the Covenant Law of Moses.

The original Covenant with Abraham was based upon faith. Therefore, we who believe God (via the Son) are grafted into the vine/tree on this same basis -- faith.

While the (Covenant) Law of Moses is made obsolete to those who believe, I assert that the original Covenant that God made with Abraham is not. In fact, the basis of that Covenant was faith; and, because we believe, we are blessed WITH Abraham (Galatians 3:9).

THE CONSTRAINING NATURE OF THE LAND PROMISES
(capital emphasis throughout by docs)

From the standpoint of the everlasting covenant that would be sealed in the blood of the Messiah, it is particularly the Landward side of the promise that would form the logical necessity, not only for a mighty apocalyptic in-breaking that would be called, ‘the great Day of the Lord’, but also an ‘everlasting salvation’ that would guarantee the abiding and irreversible regeneration of ‘all Israel’, so that the children of wickedness will never again afflict them, as previously (2Sam 7:10; Zeph 3:19). From that day and forward, Israel will lie down in safety and none make them afraid anymore again forever (Lev 25:18-19; 26:5-6; Jer 23:6; 32:7; 33:16; 46:27-28; Eze 34:28; Hos 2:18; Mic 4:3-4; Zeph 3:13; Zech 14:11). That was the hope, final rest and peace when the people and the Land would be married finally and forever (Isa 62:4-5).

We shall see that is through the implications of what was promised concerning the Land in particular that Abraham was able to see Jesus’ day and why Joseph would give commandment concerning his bones.

The dilemma of the covenant was this: HOW WILL A PEOPLE PRONE ALWAYS TO BACKSLIDE EVER BE FITTED TO INHERIT THE LAND FOREVER, WITHOUT FURTHER THREAT OF JUDGMENT OR EXILE? It was precisely the unconditional promise of eternal inheritance of the Land that would constrain the reflective OT believer to infer the necessity of an eternal regeneration that must extend, not only to a remnant, but to all the nation.

It was Abraham’s conviction of THE LITERALNESS OF THE LAND PROMISE in particular that shut him up to the expectation of his own bodily resurrection. This is because the promise of eternal possession of the Land was not only to Abraham’s seed but to him personally as well. The Land of his sojourn would become his as an everlasting possession, not now, since he would die in a good old age, but later, after his yet unborn son’s family returns after an absence of four hundred years. This is how I believe Abraham saw Jesus’ day.

Remember, when Abraham is commanded to offer Isaac, it is after the covenant promise of Gen 15 that the nation that would proceed from the promised son would spend four hundred years in another country. How does a man die and yet inherit a literal tract of Land together with this son and his son’s progeny after an absence of four hundred years in another country? Not only so, but how else could Abraham have reckoned that such a promise could be fulfilled if the designated channel of the promise is put to death? We know that Abraham not only reckoned on the necessary resurrection of Isaac through whom the nation of promise would come. He also reckoned on the necessity of his own resurrection, since the promise of everlasting possession was to him and his seed, "to you and your seed.” This demands resurrection, not only of Isaac, but of Abraham as well.

It seems evident that Abraham conceived of Isaac’s sacrifice as the fulfillment of the promise of Gen 3:15. With the sparing of Isaac, Abraham could see ahead to the day of Him who would not be spared. Messiah’s death and resurrection would accomplish the mortal wound to the Serpent’s head. Abraham could now see that through the Coming One, the fall and its dread effects would be reversed, so that he, together with his seed, would be raised to inherit the Land forever, as only possible by an indestructible and eternal righteousness. This is Abraham’s faith in the God who raises the dead. The logic of all is the revelation of God’s own righteousness imputed to us, living and working in us and through us by the Spirit, made possible through the sacrifice of the Woman’s Seed.

Apart from this conviction of the promise of eternal inheritance of a literal land by means of bodily resurrection through the reversal of the fall by the seed of the woman, none of the promises to Abraham would have pointed so clearly to the later developments of the promise through Moses and the prophets. For example, at the outskirts of the promised Land, Moses forbids Israel to imagine that their possession of the Land is because of any righteousness of their own (Deut 9:4-6). The gift of the Land is unconditional, indeed, but the ability to retain the Land is conditional. That is why Moses declares that Israel, in its present condition, will not be able to prolong their days upon the Land, precisely because "the Lord has not given you an heart, unto this day” (Deut 29:4). But this will not always be so, because Moses looks ahead to a time of ‘great tribulation’ in the latter days (Deut 4:29-31) when Jacob will be brought to the end of his power (Deut 32:36; Dan 12:1). At that time, all of the nation will receive the circumcision of the heart (Deut 30:1-6), thus securing finally and forever the promise of everlasting possession of the Land.

The later conditions that were added did nothing to annul the unconditional certainty of the original covenant with Abraham (Gal 3:17). That God alone would secure the covenant despite human weakness is signified when God puts Abraham into a deep sleep before walking through the parted pieces alone. The covenant, though made with Abraham and his seed, will not depend on Abraham but God alone. Thus signifying that God will see that every necessary condition is fully met and fulfilled in the heirs of the promise, but by nothing in or of themselves. It will be God who works in us to do and to will of His own good pleasure. No other source of righteousness can find acceptance with God, that no flesh can glory. Thus the only thing that the later conditions cut off is the flesh, as necessarily excluded from any participation in the promise. It must all be by the Spirit received by grace through faith.

The righteous remnant within the nation was never sufficient to secure the nation from judgement and exile. On the contrary, the remnant would typically suffer with the nation. IT IS ONLY WHEN THE HABITUAL TENDENCY TO BACKSLIDE HAS BEEN CURED ONCE AND FOR ALL BY A NEW HEART AND NEW SPIRIT that all Israel, and not only a remnant, will lie down in safety with assurance of everlasting continuance in the Land. That is the logic of the covenant that all the prophets understood. This alone would satisfy the covenant promise of everlasting possession of the Land. It is the Land, understood as literal, that demands the salvation of ‘all Israel’ whereby an all righteous, "Jewish” nation (‘natural branches’) is able to preserve themselves and their children’s children on the Land without further threat of curse or exile "forever” The rule is this: TO INHERIT THE LAND FOREVER, ISRAEL MUST HAVE A RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS FOREVER. This is exactly how I understand Paul’s understanding of that much disputed phrase in Ro 11:26, "and so all Israel shall be saved.” It is not a mere addendum to God’s abiding will that more Jews be saved; it is a covenant necessity! God’s Name and Word is bound up with their salvation and return to the Land. Until the time comes when every Jewish person on the earth is saved (Jer 31:34), the everlasting covenant, secured in the Savior’s blood, has not reached its full goal in the salvation of ‘all Israel’.

The revelation of the day of the Lord that secures the eternal inheritance of the Land is the climactic solution and eschatological resolution to what we might call ‘the dilemma of the covenant’. By definition, Jacob’s trouble, the ultimate travail and tribulation of Zion, is the last stage of covenant curse and discipline threatened in the law. Until then, Israel remains under covenant jeopardy so long as the disposition to backslide continues to threaten curse and exile. What will end this threat? Answer: the coming in of an ‘everlasting righteousness’ (Jer 32:40; Dan 9:24), not for a remnant only, but for the entirety of the nation, from the least to the greatest, i.e., ‘all Israel’ (Jer 31:34). As surely as Jer 31 follows chapt 30, this extravagant promise, SO OFTEN SPIRITUALIZED AS TOO FANTASTIC TO BE CONCEIVABLE FOR HISTORICAL FULFILLMENT, is HERE ON EARTH after Jacob’s trouble.

Only as the nation is saved in its entirety in a way that preserves them in abiding covenant obedience (new heart and spirit), can the chronic problem of backsliding be finally overcome. That is why the regeneration of a mere remnant can never be sufficient to guarantee an end to the curse that must always follow sin and the continued threat of judgment and exile. Unless and until ‘all Israel’ is saved eternally, even the righteous remnant is subject to the cycles of judgment and exile, as in the case of Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel.

Of course, we know that the DOL is only the partial solution to the dilemma of the broken covenant. The basis for all is the mystery of the gospel, which addresses not only the future of the promise but the very foundation of God in the calling out of His elect throughout all ages by an atonement that was eternally established before creation in the counsel of the Godhead. As we said last night, this means that many enjoyed the working of the Spirit that was based retroactively on an atonement that was not yet accomplished in time but counted as accomplished from the standpoint of God’s eternal predestination. Since the mystery of the gospel was not yet revealed, this means they enjoyed the benefit of much more than they understood.

This is how the day of the Lord ends the age long ‘discipline of the covenant’. Not only does it realize an abiding righteousness whereby the Land may be inherited safely forever; it also subdues and brings under the rod iron rule of Messiah the pride and power of the gentiles, forever ending the divinely allotted ‘times of the gentiles’ in the restoration of the kingdom to Israel, the time of "their fullness” (Ro 11:12). The day of the Lord brings a final end to what we might call ‘covenant jeopardy’ since it ends the threat of the broken covenant by the gift of the Spirit and new heart that keeps it in spirit and truth forever.

This means a mere remnant is not enough, else the problem of backsliding and judgment remains. What the promise requires is a nation that is entirely holy, not in the part but the whole. This alone can guarantee abiding inheritance without fail unto children’s children (Isa 59:21), By a guaranteed preservation through the ‘everlasting righteousness’ that is made sure to all the seed, the Land is assured of abiding inheritance, forever free from covenant jeopardy, because eternal regeneration fulfills the law and secures abiding blessing, not off in an invisible heaven, but here in open demonstration through Spirit filled saints dwelling securely in the Land without further threat of invasion or any of the curses of the broken covenant, as foretold in Lev 26 & Deut 28-32.

This is how Israel’s hope developed along the lines of the inviolable covenant law of the blessing and the curse but in the context of an unconditionally certain everlasting covenant that supersedes all human weakness through the determination of God to overcome all conditionality by real and actual fulfillment in our mortal bodies through grace by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Now it remains to show how and why the post-tribulational deliverance of Israel is no less the church’s hope, and how and why THE FOUNDATION OF ALL IS THE ATONING DEATH OF A TWICE COMING MESSIAH. Then there are the questions that rise concerning the new covenant believer’s relation to the law and how Israel’s unique and abiding election to millennial headship over the nations agrees with the revelation of the one new man, etc. The answer to these questions will materially affect how we conceive of the church’s role towards Israel presently and in Israel's future time of trouble.

(By Reggie Kelly - Oct 2104)

I'm currently working on a NIV - a new Israel version ;)
This is just a brief summary, I'm still working on some details

Part of the covenant that God made with Abraham is that
"all peoples on earth will be blessed "
Abraham means "father of a multitude”
From the beginning God had the whole world in mind.

"Israel" started with Jacob - for a Purpose
"Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Exodus 19:5-6
They are called to display who Yahweh is to all the nations, so that all would come to know and worship the one true God.
Yet God’s people continually failed at their task by worshiping other gods and participating in injustice and oppression

Then Jesus came.
God chose Israel and ultimately Jesus and the true Church to extend his love to all the world !
That's why Peter also wrote:
"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 1 Peter 2:9

"Israel" fell apart soon after King David.
What is their future ?
A time is coming when God "will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more " Jeremiah 31: 31”“34

To "restore" them I believe will mean that God will restore the Relationship with them as He planed it from the beginning. There will be judgement, forgiveness and restoration.
But there will ultimately only be One Kingdom with Jesus as King of Kings !

If we think it is about a piece of land on this old planet and who will get it then we completely miss the point.
We fail to see it is about God, His mercy, His judgement and His unfailing love.
It is not about me and what I can get out of it !
God has already worked out the future.
His plan cannot and will not fail. Most of our opinions are meaningless.We need to learn and better understand what "Amazing Grace..." means

Paul wrote: ...but will have complete boldness so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Phil 1:20,21
To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,Eph 3:8

You are to imitate me, just as I imitate Christ. 1 Cor 11:1

Blessings

Hi Christopher,

Is Israel in Rom.9:6-8, to you, the earthly nation of Israel or the church?

Do you object to the terms "new Israel” or "true Israel”?

I will reply to all points in your posts when time permits.

Hi Markus,

Agree.

The restoration Paul preached was the restoration of mankind (Jews and Gentiles) from eternal death to eternal life in Christ, and, the restoration of all mankind from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light of God’s beloved Son.

The land Paul preached was heavenly places in Christ Jesus and the heavenly Mount Zion and heavenly Jerusalem.

The blessings Paul preached were spiritual blessings in Christ.

The hope and riches and glory Paul preached was "Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col. 1:27).

The hope of Israel Paul preached clashed with the expectations of the Jews they severely persecuted him and arrested him.

SCRIPTURE:

Acts 28:20 ”“
"………for I am wearing this chain for the sake of the hope of Israel."

Acts 26:6-8 ”“
And now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers; the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day. And for this hope, O King, I am being accused by Jews. Why is it considered incredible among you people if God does raise the dead?

Acts 26:15-23 ”“
"And I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’
"So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision, but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
For this reason some Jews seized me in the temple and tried to put me to death. So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 13:32-33 ”“
And we declare to you glad tidings””that promise which was made to the fathers. God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’

Heb. 12:22 ”“
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,

Eph. 1:20, 2:6 ”“
which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places………and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Eph. 1:3 ”“
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Heb. 11:10, 16 ”“
for he (Abraham) was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God………But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God for He has prepared a city for them.

Blessings

Hi BranchinVINE,

You're asking a couple of questions, but I'm not sure if the reason is related to anything that I wrote earlier -- whether by contention, a desire for clarity or something else. However, let me address your questions.

Is Israel in Rom.9:6-8, to you, the earthly nation of Israel or the church?

"Earthly nation:" This term is somewhat puzzling because it can mean several things. A nation can be as simple as a people (as in the nation of Jews) or the group within an established border that is governed by accepted leadership.

However, I am guessing that you're referring to the "nation" of Israel -- a country that was re-founded in 1948. By contrast, you're referring to the "church" -- as in the true body of believers around the world.

If so, I would look at the passage that you're referring to:

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: "through Isaac your descendants shall be named.”

8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Romans 9:6-8 (NASB)

I think that Paul addressed this rather clearly in verses 1 through 5 as well as 8 through the rest of the chapter (and even after that in the Book of Romans).

Paul is making a definitive distinction between the original COVENANT with Abraham and the subsequent (Covenant) Law of Moses. The Covenant with Abraham was established by FAITH. Abraham believed the LORD and it was credited to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6).

Paul contrasts this "faith" with the idea that "works" (by obedience to the Law of Moses) would somehow bring about righteousness or salvation. He stated that the children of Israel had unsuccessfully pursued the law as the way of righteousness (Romans 9:30-32).

The original Covenant that God made was not established by works but by faith. Believing the LORD is necessary to be a, well, believer (and a child of God).

This does not mean that the physical portion of the Covenant between God and Abraham was void. God made a promise that Abraham would have descendants and that they would have land. There were no conditions for this promise in Genesis 15.

However, this did not mean that the children of Abraham had an eternal salvation guarantee. It simply meant that God promised Abraham that he would have many descendants AND that those descendants would be given the land that God promised.

Again, the understanding that the Covenant with Abraham was different from the "Covenant Law of Moses" is very important in all of this. In all of this, I believe that Paul is emphasizing the importance from the very beginning that God sought FAITH and that the Covenant itself was established because of it.

Because of faith, believers are grafted into the Olive Tree (the initial Covenant). That Covenant -- established by faith -- did not disappear because it was irrevocable (Romans 11:25-29). At the same time, Paul was pointing out that righteousness is by FAITH and cannot be achieved or obtained by works (particularly those attempts to fulfill the Law of Moses).

Do you object to the terms "new Israel” or "true Israel”?

To be clear: I'm not sure about these terms. Is there a particular passage that you're referring to? I try to stray away from theological semantics used for the purposes of categorizing ideological persuasion.

Instead, I will confidently say that believers are grafted into the tree.

Hi Christopher,

I just wanted to know your position on this matter.

Blessings.

/I'm currently working on a NIV - a new Israel version ;)
This is just a brief summary, I'm still working on some details/

NIV - new Israel version

???

/If we think it is about a piece of land on this old planet and who will get it then we completely miss the point./

Not necessarily. After all, we're not talking about a piece of land on this old planet. We are talking about a sanctified and set apart piece of land God promised to Abraham and his descendants. All on a renewed earth from which the curse has been lifted - "And that He might send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the restoration of all things, which God has spoken of by the mouth of all His holy prophets, since the world began (Acts 3:20). This restoration will encompass many things but it will include the renewal of the earth at Christ's second coming. Romans 8:21 - the creation itself will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Since the kingdom of God will eventually cover the EARTH, I don't believe God necessarily sees the earth as an inferior realm as much of the western mind set in the church does. There is nothing unholy about LAND.

/There will be judgement, forgiveness and restoration./

Many of the prophets also included an eventual restoration to the land, after the people's restoration to God which can only be done through faith in Christ's atoning work which they eventually will embrace.

/We fail to see it is about God, His mercy, His judgement and His unfailing love.
It is not about me and what I can get out of it!/

The calling and history of Israel, from beginning to end, is the greatest story of all of God, His mercy, His judgment and His unfailing love. It's a historical object lesson set forth for all the world to see. God will eventually have a contrite and humble Israel (Zephaniah 3:12-13). They will then have realized it is all about God and His purposes.

And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written; (Romans 11;26)

If Israel were a synonym for the Church, meaning those who are saved, that statement would be ridiculous. Paul would be saying that all those who are saved will be saved. Such an interpretation must therefore be rejected.

Why shouldn't it be the same with prophecy? If prophecy refers to Israel, then why not let it mean Israel?

Isn’t there going to be a new heavens and new earth?

I’m so confused.

Are you saying that when God creates the new earth there is going to be a literal land of Israel/Canaan/ whatever you want to call it like there is now?

If so how can that be considered "new?”

You may be confused by thinking that creation immediately goes to the eternal state and a new heavens and earth at Christ's second coming. I am not a pre-trib believer, but as a premill believer I see a thousand year interval of time before this when Christ rules over the earth from a renewed Jerusalem. Some say the thousand years is mentioned only once in the Bible, so it can't be that important. Actually, this is wrong because the thousand years are mentioned six times, not once. You are correct when you say the word "forever" may mean at times a long unspecified period of time. That is true, but the term thousand years gives us a specificity of time, not just a general sense.

I believe TMK, that if we go immediately to the eternal state then God never had a complete victory in history. History as we know it will have ended in a great tribulation of destruction and chaos and God never really was able to bring Israel into a lasting inheritance as He promised. He brought them in but they never were able to keep and abide in the land. I believe God will clean up the scene of the crime so to speak, as during the millennium He will clean up history and make a substantial difference in this same human history. The millennium is not just a specified period of time. I believe it will be a thousand year demonstration in the eyes of the nations of God's covenant faithfulness and His transforming power. All the nations will see and know that God has done this - IN HUMAN HISTORY. During which time there will be a renewed earth.

But if you believe Israel has been replaced and has no future in God's plan, then all of this is likely much ado about nothing. I don't believe it to be so.

See "The Constraining Nature of the Land Promises" I posted above. That may help you understand my point of view.

Thank you and blessings.

You are correct- that is why I am confused.

I do believe in a literal future 2d coming and a recreation of the universe but I view them as practically simultaneous. I don’t believe in a literal 7 year Great Tribulation or a literal 1000 year millennial reign, nor any type of "rapture” prior to the 2d coming.

At this point my mind is pretty much set and I don’t think ANYONE has it all figured out. What will happen will happen and the key is to be ready regardless.

I don't have a problem with the view that Jesus will one day reign from a New Jerusalem over a New Earth.
But as Todd said: "I don’t think ANYONE has it all figured out. What will happen will happen and the key is to be ready regardless. "

Something more serious: "The calling and history of Israel, from beginning to end, is the greatest story of all of God, His mercy, His judgment and His unfailing love. It's a historical object lesson set forth for all the world to see. "
That is a tragic statement !
It might make interesting object lesson. But what we read in the OT are shadows, types and examples
"Christ is at the heart of the Scriptures: he is patterned, promised, and present from Genesis onward..."(Desiring God )
"He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature," (Hebrews 1v3)

The greatest story about God, His Mercy and unfailing love is that "... God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. ...
and Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death”” even death on a cross. 9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names,…(Phil. 2:7-9)

Paul's letters are all about Jesus and the Gospel !
Here I see the true problem and tragedy. doc,you write mainly about prophecies and Israel, but hardly about the Gospel and the unsearchable riches of Christ !
I think you try and find some kind of fulfillment and peace in what you are writing. But you will never find it in what you are doing, because it is all "In Christ alone..."
I hope you will at least try and understand what I'm trying to say.

Blessings and peace to you

Markus

Excellent point Markus. We all get distracted by what should truly be our focus. Like Tozer said, "Jesus Christ is first and everything else is last.”

The foundation of all is the atoning death of a twice coming Messiah. In this Messiah are found the unsearchable riches.

I don't see how the great object lesson of God's love in Christ for Israel eventually winning over the prodigal nation is a tragic statement.

Meanwhile, Markus' words concerning me are highly presumptuous and wrong. But such is life on a forum many times.

Thanks to BranchinVINE and others for their comments.

Thank you and blessings.

Doc- it was this statement:

"The calling and history of Israel, from beginning to end, is the greatest story of all of God, His mercy, His judgment and His unfailing love. It's a historical object lesson set forth for all the world to see.”

It might be mincing words, but the greatest story of all is of course the gospel of Jesus Christ, not God’s dealings with Israel.

Hi TMK,

I don't think that those are words that doc -- or anyone --would necessarily take issue with. Rather, it was this:

Here I see the true problem and tragedy. doc,you write mainly about prophecies and Israel, but hardly about the Gospel and the unsearchable riches of Christ !

I think you try and find some kind of fulfillment and peace in what you are writing. But you will never find it in what you are doing, because it is all "In Christ alone..."

I hope you will at least try and understand what I'm trying to say.

I think that it somewhat difficult to make any sort of assessment of someone on the basis of the little that we read from them on a public forum.

As of today, doc (David) has written 2,388 posts over the last 15 years. I've seen plenty of posts that were not focused specifically upon eschatology or even Israel (in this particular manner of discussion).

This is one of the unfortunate things that happens when people -- even true believers -- engage in discussions, conversations or exchanges about issues of varying opinions.

Todd, as you said, no one has it "all figured out." Yet, even admitting this can be a point of contention for some people.

Years ago (nearly back to the beginning of this website), there was a debate over eschatology. It contained the common points of contention (e.g., rapture or no rapture, pre/mid/post trib views, believers killed by judgment poured upon Earth or not, what the mark of the beast is or is not, etc.).

My view then (which hasn't changed much since) was based more upon concern that these matters really don't matter. I do not know the exact specificities by which the Lord will return. I mentioned how Keith Green wrote that we should "pray for pre-trib but prepare for post-trib." I also mentioned how David Wilkerson was "pan-tribulation" -- saying that it will "all pan out in the end."

I was trying to say that the end will come no matter what -- and nothing that I believe about it will change HOW it comes about. My directive is to simply seek the Lord and spread the Gospel to as many people as possible until he returns.

Yet, even this was a point of contention. It became a "thing" to the point where one friend on the forum voiced concern over the condition of my soul (suggesting that I might be deceived into taking the "mark of the beast").

I appreciate these discussions and I endeavor to learn from each of them. However, I try (and sometimes fail) when it comes to perceiving people by what they've posted on this SermonIndex forum.

With this in mind, it is helpful to be aware of my own flaws, limits to understanding and realization that my views sometimes change over time (through study, prayer and revelation from both study and prayer). I also realize that we all write differently. Our writing (and the context thereof) is often a poor reflection of who we are.

I've only spoken on the phone (or in person) with a handful of people from SermonIndex. I think that we get a better picture of a person from conversations over the phone or in-person. Yet, even these are truly limited because only God sees the heart.

To be clear: I approach this topic (and most that aren't entirely clear from Scripture) with the knowledge that I don't have full knowledge. However, I love to read the views of others and challenge myself to study what I read or hear.

Yet, in all of this, I am aware that I should not be distracted from that which is most important -- to desire and seek him who is invisible. This means that I must live out the first and second greatest commandments. This is true even whether we're sharing testimonies or discussing doctrines that aren't entirely clear.

I often fail in this endeavor. I just hope that, when I write, I would be motivated by the love of God. That way, I would neither purposely offend or be offended. After all, we are all members of the Body of Christ. We want to know the truth of such matters -- but this is all secondary to knowing Him as we "walk through the wilderness of this world."

/It might be mincing words, but the greatest story of all is of course the gospel of Jesus Christ, not God’s dealings with Israel./

What nation and people did God choose to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to the world?

God chose Abraham, and later Israel, not because of anything they had done or anything they deserved. It's the same with our salvation.

In spite of their constant unfaithfulness, and even the rejection of the promised Messiah, God promised to never leave or forsake them (Jer 31:35-37; Romans 11:1). This is a glowing example of God's unchanging love for them which is in many ways the same with us. We were the chieftest of Christ rejecters but God did not abandon nor forsake us. He rather saved us out of sin and death and rebellion. Likewise, the gospel of Jesus Christ, will ultimately yet capture and triumph in the hearts of Israel the present prodigal nation. Much of this mirrors our own experience of salvation. Even as we continue to sin at times, God is not going to forsake us. I stand by my statement - "The calling and history of Israel, from beginning to end, is the greatest story of all of God, His mercy, His judgment and His unfailing love." It's a historical object lesson of which the central plot is the appearance of Christ and His work on behalf of Israel and the whole world. It's set forth for all the world to see. God's dealings with Israel are a clear mirror and a great demonstrable object lesson in many ways of our own salvation. If you want to understand a bit more about your own salvation and how it works, there are many things to be learned from God's dealings with Israel. The same with them the same with us in many ways.

If you want to divorce the gospel of Jesus Christ from Israel, and God's dealings with them, then go ahead but I don't want any of it. I was allowed to participate in and become a partaker in the unsearchable riches of the gospel of Jesus Christ because of a covenant made with THEM (salvation is of the Jews). The history of God's dealings with them are very instructive for believers today. "All these things happened to them as examples , and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world have come" (I Cor 10:11).

Prophecy can be seen as Christ putting the finishing touches on the work He began at His first advent. He is not at all through. Wanting to know about and understand these events is far from being distracted. The point about allegorical interpretations of prophecy, always minimizing Israel, is that some of them seem to me to be as far fetched and even at times as ludicrous as Markus' out of left field and incorrect psychoanalysis of my motives. You and him ignore statements from me (quoting Reggie) such as, "The foundation of all is the atoning work of a twice coming Messiah." Therein lies the gospel of Jesus Christ from which you imply I am distracted.

But all is well. Thank you and thank you for your input although we don't always agree.

Blessings.

Hi Christopher,

I have not forgotten to give you a reply.

First,

You said to TMK:

I will point out that the purest basis for the Old Covenant was not in the Law of Moses but in an actual promise that God made to Abraham.

God made the Abrahamic Covenant with Abraham and his seed, that is, Christ (Gal. 3:16).

God made the Old /Mosaic Covenant NOT with Abraham BUT with Abraham’s natural descendants.

These are therefore two very different covenants.

More later.

Hi BranchinVINE,

God made the Abrahamic Covenant with Abraham and his seed, that is, Christ (Gal. 3:16).

God made the Old /Mosaic Covenant NOT with Abraham BUT with Abraham’s natural descendants.

These are therefore two very different covenants.

I think that if you go back and read what I've previously written, you'll find that I tried to make this clear in all of my posts about this. In fact, I tried to point out the distinction between the original basis for the Old Covenant (in terms of the land promised) and the Covenant Law of Moses.

In Romans, Paul made this same distinct comparison -- pointing out that the basis for the Old Covenant was non-conditional and was born out of FAITH (i.e., "Then he believed the LORD; and He credited it to him as righteousness" [Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:1-25]).

This Covenant with Abraham was antecedent to the Covenant Law of Moses. It was made by God more than half a millennium before the Law of Moses.

Not many people who talk about various versions of replacement theology point out the difference. They point at how the Law is obsolete. Yet, even if the Law of Moses is obsolete, it doesn't necessarily mean that the original Covenant is.

To be clear: The Covenant with Abraham was not based upon righteousness by works -- because it was born out of righteousness by faith. It is also not dependent upon compulsory ways to work out and achieve righteousness either. When the Lord cited his Covenant and the promises with it, it went back to Abraham and his faith.

Hi Christopher,

I think that if you go back and read what I've previously written, you'll find that I tried to make this clear in all of my posts about this. In fact, I tried to point out the distinction between the original basis for the Old Covenant (in terms of the land promised) and the Covenant Law of Moses.

NO LAND was promised in the Old/Mosaic Covenant.

These were the promises (Ex. 19:5-6):
(1) They would be God’s peculiar treasure above all people;
(2) They would be to God a kingdom of priests; and
(3) The would be a holy nation.
They would receive these promises only if they obeyed God’s voice and kept His covenant.

They failed so they have lost these promises.

As I see it, two covenants ”“ the Abrahamic Covenant and the Old/Mosaic Covenant ”“ co-existed from Sinai to the Cross.

The Abrahamic Covenant is only for people of faith in God.

The Israelites entered the earthly land of Canaan BY THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT BY FAITH.

Heb. 11:30 ”“
BY FAITH the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.

They were led by Joshua, A MAN OF FAITH in God.

Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua and God gave them all the land that God had promised Abraham.

Josh. 21:43-45 ”“
So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. And the LORD gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hand. Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass.

Josh. 24:31 ”“
Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the LORD which He had done for Israel.

The Israelites entered the land of Canaan by the Abrahamic Covenant by grace through faith. BUT their continued stay in the land was conditional upon their obedience to the statutes, ordinances and commandments of the Old/Mosaic Covenant (Lev. 26:14-46).

They failed and lost the land.

Heb. 8:9 ”“
because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.

God had something infinitely greater, more perfect, and unbreakable.

The Abrahamic Covenant which is irrevocable was brought to the greatness and fullness of truth and unimaginable glory in the Lord Jesus Christ.

With the coming of Christ, all things transitioned from shadow to substance, from temporal to eternal, from earthly to heavenly, from flesh to spirit.

John 14:6 ”“
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

To Nicodemus, a Pharisee and a ruler of the Jews, Jesus said:

John 3:3,6-7 ”“
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God……………That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

2 Cor. 4:18 (BLB) ”“
We are not looking at the things being seen, but the things not being seen. For the things being seen are temporary, but the things not being seen are eternal.

And, the glorious Israel of God in the Abrahamic Covenant and New Covenant (which has been called "New Israel”) is IN CHRIST and comprises people of all nations, including the Jewish people.

With the inauguration of the New Covenant in Jesus’ blood, the Old/Mosaic Covenant is obsolete (Heb. 8:13).

The glory of the New Covenant surpasses that of the Old Covenant and is that which remains.

2 Cor. 3:10-11 ”“
For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

Abraham desired a heavenly country (Heb. 11:16) and rejoiced to see Jesus’ day (John 8:56).

Peter said:

2 Pet. 3:10,13 ”“
……… and the earth and its works will be burned up…………But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Moses’ last command to the Israelites was to obey the gospel that Paul preached.

Deut. 30:11-14 ”“
For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

Rom. 10:5-8 ”“
For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”””that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

Rom. 10:12-13 ”“
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Surely there is a great significance in the name change from Abram to Abraham.

In Romans, Paul made this same distinct comparison -- pointing out that the basis for the Old Covenant was non-conditional and was born out of FAITH (i.e., "Then he believed the LORD; and He credited it to him as righteousness" [Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:1-25]).

Rom. 4:1-25 links the Abrahamic Covenant with the New Covenant in Jesus’ blood, NOT with the Old/Mosaic Covenant.

/Josh. 21:43-45 ”“ So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. And the LORD gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hand. Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass. Also,, Josh. 24:31 ”“ Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the LORD which He had done for Israel.

The Israelites entered the land of Canaan by the Abrahamic Covenant by grace through faith. BUT their continued stay in the land was conditional upon their obedience to the statutes, ordinances and commandments of the Old/Mosaic Covenant (Lev. 26:14-46). They failed and lost the land. Heb. 8:9 ”“ because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. /

This seems to imply that Israel lost the land permanently because of their disobedience. A question I have is, why were later prophets, approximately 650 to 750 years later, still prophesying of Israel one day inheriting the land permanently?

1"Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!” says the Lord. 2 Therefore thus says the Lord God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: "You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings,” says the Lord. 3 "But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4 I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking,” says the Lord.
5 "Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
"That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper,and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. 6 In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 "Therefore, behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, "that they shall no longer say, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 8 but, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land”(Jeremiah 23:1-7).

All of this was approximately 750 years after the scripture in Joshua.

22"Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: "I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, "when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. (Ezekiel 36:22-28)

24"David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. (Ezekiel 37:24-25)

Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers etc. This was about 775 years after the scripture recorded in Joshua. Not to mention Isaiah's numerous marked prophecies of an inwardly renewed people living in the land as promised to Abraham. And that doesn't include many of the minor prophets. If it was all fulfilled during the days of Joshua, then why 650-750 years later were these prophets prophesying concerning the same subject of inheriting the land? And inheriting the land on a permanent basis.

Hi docs,

A question I have is, why were later prophets, approximately 650 to 750 years later, still prophesying of Israel one day inheriting the land permanently?

Of what did the prophets prophesied?

Peter tells us:

1 Pet. 1:3-5 ”“
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

v. 9-12 ”“
obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ AND THE GLORIES TO FOLLOW. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things into which angels long to look.

Ezekiel prophesied:

Ezek. 37:13-14””
"Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.

TRUTH came through Jesus Christ (John 1:17).

Jesus said:

John 14:16-17,20 ”“
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you……In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.”

John 6:63 ”“
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”

Therefore the "land” Ezekiel prophesied pointed to "you in Me, and I in you”.

Col. 1:27 --……Christ in you, the hope of glory.

The Levites in the Old Testament were not given land as their inheritance but "the Lord, the God of Israel, is their inheritance” (Josh. 13:33).

Christ is our "land”.

Ps. 16:5-6 ”“
The LORD is the portion of my inheritance and my cup;
You support my lot.
The lines have fallen to me in pleasant places;
Indeed, my heritage is beautiful to me.

All the promises God made to Abraham are now IN CHRIST (Gal. 3:16).

Gal. 3:29 ”“
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I am standing up for the Israel of God IN CHRIST which comprises believers from ALL nations.

God loves ALL people in ALL nations (John 3:16).

Acts 10:34 ”“
And opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him.

Blessings

I will try and keep this post short and focus only on what really matters.

"The Israelites entered the land of Canaan by the Abrahamic Covenant.They failed and lost the land. Heb. 8:9 ”“ because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
This seems to imply that Israel lost the land permanently because of their disobedience."
I don't think that is correct, you are mixing 2 covenants together, I will keep them separate.

Here is what we read in Heb v 8,9,10…
8But God found fault with the people and said: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they did not abide by My covenant, and I disregarded them, declares the Lord. 10For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.…

v9 clearly talks about a covenant he made when He took them and led them out of Egypt, - and not with Abraham
v10b we read what the new covenant looks like, "I will put My laws in their minds and inscribe them on their hearts..."
and most importantly "And I will be their God, and they will be My people.…"
There is no word about the land in those verses.

What I want to focus more is " "And I will be their God, and they will be My people.…"
We have a faithful God who can forgive anyone who sinned and failed and restore the relationship again.
Titus 2:14 "who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession,"
Paul called himself the chief sinner.
He was motivated by the love of Christ to tell this Good News to everyone.

Therefore,most importantly we should realise that we have a faithful God with a unfailing love.
This faithful God has already worked out what will happen with the land.
I don't know the exact details, but our God knows
The more we get to know our faithful God the less we are concerned about some land.

Think about Romans 8:32 "He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? "

It is truly "Amazing Grace..."
May we all get a deeper understanding what this means and and step out and share this Good News with the lost and hurting world out there. !

Blessings

Markus

/I don't think that is correct, you are mixing 2 covenants together, I will keep them separate./

You are not correct in assuming that. The Abrahamic covenant, based on unconditional promises, assures that eventually grace will win out. That which the nation of Israel lacked God has unconditionally taken upon Himself to provide. That grace appeared fully in the person and atoning work of Christ and is the same for every person, Jew or Gentile, who comes to Christ.

/v9 clearly talks about a covenant he made when He took them and led them out of Egypt, - and not with Abraham
v10b we read what the new covenant looks like, "I will put My laws in their minds and inscribe them on their hearts..."
and most importantly "And I will be their God, and they will be My people.…"
There is no word about the land in those verses./

No, there is not, but it this new covenant written on their minds and in their hearts that will eventually allow Israel to have the moral ability to obey God and keep the land because of their obedience in that day.

"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues, and you will keep My judgments and do them.I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers(Ezekiel 36:25-29)

- How is one cleansed from filthiness and idols and not just covered for another year? By the blood of Christ.

- How does one get a new heart and a new spirit? By the new birth that Jesus described to Nicodemus.

- "I will put My Spirit within you." Does God put His Spirit within someone that is not saved and recipients of the new birth in Christ?

- I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Where will this ability to walk in God's statues and keep His judgments and DO THEM come form? It will come from their inward moral ability to do so because God's laws will now be written on their minds and hearts. This is what happens at the new birth.

- I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers.

So much for just "some land." The Abrahamic covenant promised this inheritance along with a Savior to bless all nations. This one nation being blessed in this way in no way takes away from the universal blessings coming to all peoples and nations through Christ. Now they are prodigal. Then they will again be God's people and He will be their God. Just as He is to all who place faith in Christ. They won't deserve it at all. It will be one of the most amazing demonstrations of amazing grace and unfailing love ever seen. The love of God in Christ and His atoning work will yet capture the rebellious nation.

/He was motivated by the love of Christ to tell this Good News to everyone./

Why would that be an issue? I haven't come close to saying anything that denies that.

/This faithful God has already worked out what will happen with the land.
I don't know the exact details, but our God knows
The more we get to know our faithful God the less we are concerned about some land./

Yes and the prophets have much to say about how God will work out the details with the land. One day Israel will dwell there with the benefit of a new heart and a new spirit as God will have put His Spirit within them. Then they will keep God commands and judgments and DO THEM resulting in obedience allowing them to stay in the land.

I want to pay attention to the whole picture. Thank God for His unspeakable gift of Christ and His atoning work at His first coming. But the Bible contains the prophetic narrative of the times and events surrounding Christ's second coming. Wanting to know this in more depth is not being distracted from His atoning work at His first coming. Nothing could be further from the truth. The first coming and Calvary paved the way for what He will accomplish at His second coming.

NEW BIRTH = INWARD ABILITY (new heart and spirit) TO OBEY GOD = OBEDIENCE = MEETING CONDITIONS (OBEDIENCE) TO KEEP THE LAND PERMENANTLY.

Meanwhile, Where is Christ likely to return to? Just "some land?"

Thank you and blessings.

/Of what did the prophets prophesied?

Peter tells us:

1 Pet. 1:3-5 ”“
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

v. 9-12 ”“
obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ AND THE GLORIES TO FOLLOW. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things into which angels long to look./

What is the problem if a eschatological remnant of unbelieving Israel comes into this grace in Christ, experiencing as a result the salvation of their souls? Which the prophets predicted.

"Your own land" sounds like the land God promised to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

/John 14:16-17,20 ”“
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you……In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.”

John 6:63 ”“
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”/

What is of the flesh believing this helper inspired the writing of the Old Testament and when this Helper, the Spirit of Truth, spoke of land he meant land? How did God intend for the original hearer to interpret this?

/Therefore the "land” Ezekiel prophesied pointed to "you in Me, and I in you”./

That seems a bit off to me. I would wager that when land was spoken of, it meant land.

/Christ is our "land."/

But Genesis 15:18-20 refutes that. This type of allegorization denies and changes the meaning of many prophecies and mars the way God intended the original hearers to hear them. That is why there is a growing trend away from this type of interpretation.

/All the promises God made to Abraham are now IN CHRIST (Gal. 3:16)./

Exactly! And when a eschatological remnant of the natural descendants of Abraham are found IN CHRIST, they will inherit all of the promises intended for the spiritual sons of Abraham. Since IN CHRIST they will be the true spiritual sons of Abraham. Promised land inheritance included. That in no way minimized the salvation of their souls.

/Gal. 3:29 ”“
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise./

What promise? The promise of a Savior that would bless all the families of the earth and the promise that Abraham's descendants would possess the land forever. When they are IN CHRIST they will able to obtain the fullness of the promises in their entirety.

/I am standing up for the Israel of God IN CHRIST which comprises believers from ALL nations./

I am too! Absolutely! How does God accepting all who come to Christ from all nations somehow exclude former promises made to Abraham of which land is included?

/God loves ALL people in ALL nations (John 3:16)./

That's not news good bro, that goes without saying. How would God keeping the landward side of His promise to Abraham mean that God doesn't love all people in all nations? It always baffles me to a degree when people suggest such?

/Acts 10:34 ”“
And opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him./

Again, how is God showing partiality by keeping the fullness of His promises to Abraham? The foundation is that they cannot be obtained without being IN CHRIST. That will not mean God will not accept men from every nation who fear Him. It will mean God keeps His promises. That should inspire men from all nations.

Praise be to the Lord for His unspeakable gift of Christ to us.

Thank you.

Sometimes I pray for you doc.
May the Lord Himself give you understanding and His peace!

I now leave the discussion with the song
In Christ Alone !!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16KYvfIc2bE

Blessings to all

Markus

Acts 28:16-31 ”“

16 When we entered Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who was guarding him.

17 After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, "Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

18 And when they had examined me, they were willing to release me because there was no ground for putting me to death.

19 But when the Jews objected, I was forced to appeal to Caesar, not that I had any accusation against my nation.

20 For this reason, therefore, I requested to see you and to speak with you, for I am wearing this chain for the sake of the hope of Israel.”

for I am wearing this chain for the sake of the hope of Israel.

They said to him, "We have neither received letters from Judea concerning you, nor have any of the brethren come here and reported or spoken anything bad about you.

22 But we desire to hear from you what your views are; for concerning this sect, it is known to us that it is spoken against everywhere.”

23 When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.

24 Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.

25 And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, "The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers, 26 saying,

‘GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,
"YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
27 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’

28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen.”

29 When he had spoken these words, the Jews departed, having a great dispute among themselves.]

30 And he stayed two full years in his own rented quarters and was welcoming all who came to him, 31 preaching the kingdom of God and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all openness, unhindered.

And he stayed two full years in his own rented quarters and was welcoming all who came to him, 31 preaching the kingdom of God and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all openness, unhindered.

Luke 17:21 ”“
For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Hi BranchinVINE,

NO LAND was promised in the Old/Mosaic Covenant.

Again, we are speaking of the original Covenant with Abraham and not the Law of Moses. Even within the Covenant Law of Moses (which was about conditional righteousness and atonement), the original Covenant with Abraham is mentioned.

REMEMBER: The Israelites left Egypt and were heading to the "promised land" even BEFORE they were derailed by sin and rebellion (which necessitated the Covenant Law). However, the promises in that Covenant were already made.

They failed and lost the land.

Paul explains this in detail.

25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery””so that you will not be wise in your own estimation””that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”

27 "This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers;

29 FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.

30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.

Romans 11:25-32 (NASB)

My emphasis is on verse 29. This is the verse so often quoted in Calvinism about "salvation." However, it is (in context) referring to the Covenant and the physical descendants of Abraham.

This is where the two aspects of the Old Covenant matter. The original Covenant was with Abraham. It came hundreds of years before the Law of Moses. During that time between Abraham and Moses, there was no Law...no Ark...no tabernacle...no altar.

Now, the descendants of Abraham did fail -- many times. They failed on the way to the promised land. They failed while they were in the promised land. They failed after the captivity and the era of the diaspora.

Yet, I think about God's mercy.

- God did not destroy this Covenant when so many of the Israelites sinned in the wilderness BEFORE arriving to that promised land.

- God did not destroy this Covenant with Abraham even during the corruption of "Israel" after Solomon. A handful of kings who did evil in the eyes of God reigned and caused Israel to sin by worshiping other gods.

- God did not destroy this Covenant even during the reign of Ahab and Jezebel -- when Elijah fled to Mt. Sinai (the place of the Law) and cried out that he alone served God.

- God did not destroy the Covenant even when Israel persisted in sin and Judah had three subsequent kings (sons of Josiah) who did evil. The Jews were carried away -- but the promise to Abraham did not fail.

Even a generation later, God put it into the heart of King Cyrus to allow Jews to return. The Temple had been destroyed and Cyrus (by God's direction) sent some to return and rebuild (Ezra 1:1-4). Later, Nehemiah (the cupbearer of Artaxerxes) also returned and rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem as the governor.

What am I saying?

The original Covenant was not established by the Temple or Tabernacle. It was an unconditional promise. This is recorded in Genesis 15.

Part of that covenant with Abraham was that he would have many descendants. Another part was that those descendants were given the physical land that God promised them.

This was the original Covenant. This does NOT mean that the people of Israel were "saved" or even "righteous." After all, many died for their sins in the wilderness, in the promised land and after they were carried off into exile. Israel still needed a Savior.

Whereas...

The Covenant with Abraham was an unconditional, irrevocable promise...

...the Covenant Law of Moses was a means for the people under that Covenant to try and achieve righteousness.

The second part (the Law of Moses) became obsolete. This is because righteousness was meant to be achieved by faith -- as it was with the original Covenant when Abraham believed God and it was credited as "righteousness."

The LORD sent his Son to the Earth to allow humans -- Jew or Gentile -- to find righteousness by simply believing in Him.

Hey Chris-

If the Abrahamic promise to the land was unconditional, why couldn’t the Israelites simply have claimed this promise even during their disobedience under Moses and the Judges?

In other words, how could the conditional Mosaic covenant override the unconditional Abrahamic covenant?

Hi TMK,

I don't quite understand what you're asking. The Covenant (with Abraham) did not mean that they were righteous...or free from guilt. It was simply a promise of having descendants and land.

In other words, the conditional Covenant Law of Moses did not override the unconditional Abrahamic covenant. It was simply subsequent.

Despite the Covenant promises with Abraham, the descendants of Abraham still needed to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Prior to Christ, the seed of Abraham sought righteousness through works by trying to fulfill the Law of Moses.

Christ came so that people who simply believed in him would have everlasting life.

*EDIT - Consider it in the form of a timeline.

- COVENANT: God makes an unconditional Covenant with Abraham. He tells him that he will have many descendants and that specific land will be given to them.

- COVENANT LAW: Around 600 years later, God frees the descendants of Abraham from slavery in Egypt. Then, God creates a COVENANT LAW with them that is a means to achieve righteousness through works and sacrificial atonement. This Covenant Law is conditional.

- CHRIST: Thousands of years later, God sends his only begotten Son to this world to become the final sacrificial atonement. Anyone -- Jew or Gentile -- finds righteousness and atonement of sins by simply believing in Christ Jesus.

The sacrifice of Christ Jesus created this NEW Covenant in His blood. It made the efforts at obtaining righteousness by the conditional Law of Moses obsolete.

Yet, the original Covenant with Abraham was unconditional and irrevocable. However, that covenant never meant that the seed of Abraham were "saved" or even "righteous" by that Genesis 15 covenant. The seed of Abraham still needed a Savior.

Many Christians support the modern state of Israel in a way that looks like they believe descendants of Jacob's bloodline &/or citizens of Israel should be guaranteed unconditional blessing & right to the land of Canaan, regardless of national or personal covenant loyalty to God. The Abrahamic Covenant is usually appealed to as the main reason for this stance.

If the Mosaic Covenant promises/blessings/cursings, which built upon the Abrahamic Covenant, were still in force, wouldn't/shouldn't the nation of Israel expect cursing & ejection from the land, per the conditions & promises, due to not following God in right covenant, the New Covenant being the one currently in force?

If the Abrahamic Covenant blessings were simply unconditional, (such as unconditional rights to national blessing & the land of Canaan), then how does one make sense of the Mosaic Covenant's conditional (not unconditional) blessings? ... If the Abrahamic Covenant's blessings were simply unconditional, why couldn't it have been wielded to disregard the conditions of the Mosaic Covenant & insist upon national blessing & right to the land, regardless of covenant loyalty? But obviously it would not have been correct to wield it in that manner, which proves the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant weren't purely unconditional, correct?

The Mosaic/Sinaitic Covenant has been superseded by the New Covenant, so the blessings & cursings connected with the Mosaic Covenant, (which built upon the Abrahamic Covenant), are not applicable anymore, correct?

The New Covenant blessings are also conditional, not unconditional, & apply only to those in Covenant with God through following the Messiah, regardless of race ... while those not following the Messiah are cut/broken off of the covenant community, regardless of race. & the NT makes it clear that the Abrahamic Covenant promises & blessings are fulfilled in & applied to (& only to) members of the New Covenant, correct?

So, specifically based on the Scriptural perspective how & why would a Christian insist upon the unconditional blessing of the modern state of Israel...due to Scriptural, not modern political reasons?

Hi TMK,

So, specifically based on the Scriptural perspective how & why would a Christian insist upon the unconditional blessing of the modern state of Israel...due to Scriptural, not modern political reasons?

When I refer to Israel or the promised land, I am not referring to the "government" of Israel. In truth, at times, there were multiple simultaneous governments of Abraham's seeds after Solomon. There were simultaneously existent nations of Israel and Judah -- each with their own kings.

In I Kings 19:15-18, Elijah was even instructed by God (at Sinai) to anoint an idolater, Jehu, to be king of Israel and Hazael to be king of Aram (which was technically within the boundaries of the promised land). This was while another king was ruling in Judah.

My point is that the Covenant with Abraham was about his seed and the promised land -- which is where modern day Israel and Palestinian territory exist. The Bible is somewhat silent on the matter of actual governments being any part of that Covenant.

So, when I refer to the "nation of Israel," I refer to the nation in a TRIBAL sense. It just so happens that in 1948, physical descendants of Abraham (part of the Covenant promise) returned to that land (which was promised in that Covenant).

By the way, I do think that the summary found in Nehemiah chapter 9 is very interesting. In this chapter, exiles have returned to the promised land and Jerusalem. They have rebuilt the Temple and the walls of Jerusalem -- despite being subjugated to a foreign (and pagan) king.

Yet, in this chapter, these newly-returned exiles summarize the original Covenant and Covenant Law of Moses. They summarize the promise to Abraham and the subsequent covenant law and how the original covenant promise of God was still valid despite the disobedience and rebellion (to the Law of Moses) and general faithlessness of the people.

In Genesis 15, God unconditionally promised Abraham descendants and land. God did not mention the Law. God didn't even mention the Covenant of Circumcision. God certainly didn't mention earthly governments, secular laws or skirmishes that would eventually come.

In other words, God promised that land to the descendants of Abraham -- and not specifically to the governments that they might create.

Hi Christopher,

Let us discuss this objectively and look to Scripture alone.

My Question:
Does God still regard the Jewish people as His special possession and accept them as descendants of Abraham?

Consider these scripture:

(1) Ex. 19:5-6

They would only be God’s "own possession among all the peoples” IF they obeyed His voice and kept His covenant (Old/Mosaic Covenant). They failed. So, are they still God’s "own possession among all the peoples”?

(2) 2 Kings 17:7-23

The kingdom of Israel rejected God’s statutes and his covenant (v. 15) and God removed them from His sight (v. 18).

(3) 2 Kings 23:26-27, 21:1-18

God’s anger also burned against the kingdom of Judah and He also removed them from His sight.

Ezek. 5:6 ”“
But she has rebelled against My ordinances more wickedly than the nations and against My statutes more than the lands which surround her; for they have rejected My ordinances and have not walked in My statutes.

(4) Matt. 3:7-10 ”“

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

The axe IS ALREADY laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

THE REMNANT

The Jewish people were rejected because they broke the Old/Mosaic Covenant BUT the Abrahamic Covenant is irrevocable, so God preserved a small Jewish REMNANT who believed the gospel and were brought into Christ and the New Covenant by grace through faith. These became the first members of Christ’s body, the first true descendants of Abraham IN CHRIST, and of the true Israel IN CHRIST. Therefore, God was faithful to the Abrahamic Covenant.

Rom. 11:1-10 ”“
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written,
"GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
And David says,
"LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
"LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”

In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written,
"GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
And David says,
"LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
"LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”

Rom. 9:6-8 ”“
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Gal. 3:26-29 ”“
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Comment:
God’s promise in the Abrahamic Covenant to Abraham’s natural descendants continued through the Jewish remnant who believed the gospel and IN CHRIST all are born again and all promises become spiritual. To these, countless Gentile believers have been added as promised in the Abrahamic Covenant. For the promises in the Abrahamic Covenant were truly made TO CHRIST AND ALL IN CHRIST and for all people of all nations.

THE EARTHLY LAND

Did the saved remnant of the Jewish people still desired an earthly land?

Peter was a leader of the saved Jewish remnant. He said:

2 Pet. 3:10,13 ”“
……and the earth and its works will be burned up………But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

NO LAND IS MENTIONED IN ROM. 11!

The church has no command to preach good news of a return to an earthly land for the Jewish people.

This is the Great Commission:

Matt. 28:18-19 ”“
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Hi BranchinVINE,

Let us discuss this objectively and look to Scripture alone.

Now, I have read your many posts (including verses AND commentary). Yet, I cannot be any clearer in my attempt to differentiate the Genesis 15 covenant with Abraham and the subsequent (600+ years) Covenant Law of Moses.

I suspect that we are in agreement that Jews need Jesus. The Covenant of God with Abraham did not mean that the physical descendants of Abraham were somehow "saved." Righteousness could not be obtained by the Law of Moses. However, righteousness was not a condition of the Covenant promise with Abraham.

As such, I disagree with the notion that God nullified the Covenant that he made with Abraham. There is nothing that I can find in Scripture that indicates that the Covenant that God made with Abraham has been nullified.

While I believe that it is clear that Jews must be born again, I also believe that the promise to Abraham of having many generations of physical descendants and inheritance of the promised land is still valid. I find this true even with the fact that Christians are descendants of Abraham by faith.

There is not much more that I can say other than how I presented my view within the things that I have previously posted. I will conclude by pointing out that I believe that this promised land plays a crucial role in Biblical prophecy -- and for a reason. The gifts and call of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).

Hi Christopher,

I am certainly looking at this objectively and considering SCRIPTURE ALONE.

Of course you are. I just wanted to be sure that anyone else wishing to join this discussion would do the same. Sorry I was not clear about that.

Righteousness could not be obtained by the Law of Moses. However, righteousness was not a condition of the Covenant promise with Abraham.

The Abrahamic Covenant promised a people, land/inheritance and blessings. God is holy and righteous and no unholy and unrighteous person can stand before God. The New Covenant has made it possible for people to be holy and righteous so that the Abrahamic Covenant can be effective.

As such, I disagree with the notion that God nullified the Covenant that he made with Abraham. There is nothing that I can find in Scripture that indicates that the Covenant that God made with Abraham has been nullified.

I have always said that the Abrahamic Covenant is everlasting and irrevocable. It is the Old/Mosaic Covenant that is obsolete.

While I believe that it is clear that Jews must be born again, I also believe that the promise to Abraham of having many generations of physical descendants and inheritance of the promised land is still valid.

The Jewish people did not produce any good fruit for God and John the Baptist said that "the axe IS ALREADY laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

The gifts and call of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).

Yes. All the promises of God in the Abrahamic Covenant to ALL nations, Jews and Gentiles, are irrevocable.
It is because of v. 29 that Gentiles and Jews are saved in v. 30-32.
God's super-abounding grace to ALL is demonstrated in v. 32.
Paul was overwhelmed by God's unfathomable wisdom and grace he burst into the doxology in v.33-36.
God undertook to save all men by the Abrahamic Covenant and New Covenant.
The salvation of all men is guaranteed by the Abrahamic Covenant and New Covenant.

Comment:
Everyone is free to believe what they want to believe. Time and eternity will show who is right and who is wrong. Meanwhile, only those who believe in the Lord Jesus will be saved.

I just like to add some more simple thoughts about the land that God promised to Abraham.
Genesis 13:15 "for all the land that you see, I will give to you and your offspring (or seed, = Christ) forever."
Abraham never possessed that land. He had to buy land to bury is wife.
Therefore my conclusion:
The promise will be fulfilled after the resurrection.
Then God will GIVE the land to those he promised.
Nobody can claim it today and say it is mine
If it will be on a new earth or a new heaven, and who exactly qualifies, I let you decide.

Edit: just adding the following:
"I have always said that the Abrahamic Covenant is everlasting and irrevocable. It is the Old/Mosaic Covenant that is obsolete." That's how I see it too, we need to keep the two seperate

The church is not Israel by John MacArthur:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtue2oFiIMQ

The Church IS Israel by The Bible

Rom. 2:28-29 ”“
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Col. 2:11 ”“
and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Rom. 9:6-8 ”“
For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Gal. 4:28 ”“
And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

Gal. 3:26-29 ”“
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Hi BranchinVINE,

The Jewish people did not produce any good fruit for God and John the Baptist said that "the axe IS ALREADY laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

...and...

Yes. All the promises of God in the Abrahamic Covenant to ALL nations, Jews and Gentiles, are irrevocable.
It is because of v. 29 that Gentiles and Jews are saved in v. 30-32.
God's super-abounding grace to ALL is demonstrated in v. 32.
Paul was overwhelmed by God's unfathomable wisdom and grace he burst into the doxology in v.33-36.
God undertook to save all men by the Abrahamic Covenant and New Covenant.
The salvation of all men is guaranteed by the Abrahamic Covenant and New Covenant.

However, the verse in Romans 11:25-29 is SPECIFICALLY addressing the physical seed of Abraham.

In fact, when I read the Epistle to the Romans as a whole, I read of God's unfailing promise to Abraham regarding both his descendants (physical and those grafted into the tree) and the promised land.

This never meant that the Jews were "saved." It just meant that they are a part of a promise. That land is part of that promise too.

Yes, there are spiritual "types and shadows." Just like all people, Jews must be "born again" to enter the Kingdom of God.

Yet, Paul still distinguishes the physical Israelite from Gentiles. He even staked his status as an Israelite from the Tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1).

I do not believe that God broke a covenant promise with Abraham that was without conditions. It doesn't matter if the Israelites were failing -- because they always had a long history of failing. The Covenant stood throughout it all.

In fact, Paul talked about Elijah fleeing to Mt. Sinai and telling God that he was the only faithful Israelite left. Paul then said:

4 "But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, since otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Romans 11:4-6 (NASB)

In verse 1 and verse 7, Paul reiterates that he is referring to physical Israelites. In other words, God did not reject his people (verse 1). In fact, God still set aside the physical seed of Abraham -- which is the bulk of what this particular chapter refers to (and how they will one day be saved after the fullness of Gentiles has come in).

In fact, there are many Israelites -- the physical seed of Abraham -- who have faith in Jesus Christ. God told Elijah that he had reserved seven thousand who had not bowed the knee to Baal. And, as God told Abraham, he would have spared Lot if just ten righteous had been found.