The God of Israel Fights for Israel

From Capitol Hill Prayer Partners:

The God of Israel Fights for Israel!
The God of Israel raised up a man who is the Chief of Staff of the Israeli IDF, Aviv Kochavi, for a time such as this, to lead the armies of Israel as in the times of old when King David and his mighty men went to to battle.

Last night and this morning, the brilliant strategy given to Kochavi by the God of Israel caused Hamas and Islamic Jihad to suffer devastating losses in men and material.

COUNT THE COST!

Last night was a night of Hell in Gaza. Just as God said in His word:

"For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it”

Both Hamas and Islamic Jihad are surrogates of Iran. They are funded by Iran. Many of their rockets and mortars come from Iran. Their suicide drones are manufactured in Iran and sent to Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Their troops are trained by Iran, and they take orders directly from Iran.

The Hezbollah in Lebanon, the Syrians in Syria, and the Mullah’s in Iran are learning a valuable lesson today. They need to first count the cost before they attack Israel.

LAST NIGHT

Last night, within 40 minutes 160 Israeli Jets attacked over 200 targets in Gaza, dropping 450 bombs. The residents of Gaza, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad have never ever experienced anything like this in their past conflicts with Israel.

When the people of northern Gaza and their leaders awoke this morning and looked out on their city what they saw was total destruction; It was a complete disaster, with many parts of the city having been totally destroyed. (see pictures to follow)

Brilliant Tactics

Early this morning, Israeli time, the IDF called in the major US news services, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and others and announced, "We are now moving to attack Gaza by land, sea, and air!”

They did not say that Israel was launching a ground assault, they just implied it. Hamas and Islamic Jihad heard the US broadcast and reacted exactly as Israel’s brilliant commander expected. They took the bait.

They ordered all their soldiers to go under ground into the tunnels and hide so when the Israeli army came in they would burst forth and attack them. Remember, both Hamas and Islamic Jihad put their tunnels under buildings surrounded and often occupied by innocent civilians, because they care nothing about the lives of their own people.

What happened next had to be perfectly timed.

As the army of Hamas and Islamic Jihad descended into the tunnels, under many large buildings, 160 Israeli jets were already in the air. When they closed the doors on the last tunnel, Israeli fighters dropped huge bombs on the buildings that were above the tunnels. The bombs caused not only the major buildings to collapse, they caused the tunnels to collapse as well, instantly trapping thousands of Hamas and Islamic troops. As I write this, thousands of Islamic Jihad and Hamas terrorists died this morning in sealed tombs, never to rise again!

The remaining leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad now are in absolute panic. They sent a delegation this morning from Egypt to ask for a cease fire with Israel, after firing over 2,000 rockets and many suicide drones at Israeli’s major cities and citizens for 5 days.

Israel response; "No cease fire!”

Watch and Pray!

- Father God, we thank You for this glorious victory for the nation of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- Israel! We continue to stand in support of her leaders and her
military officers as they continue to plan strategy that will disarm and demolish the enemy forces, preserving her own people now and always. Thank You , O Lord, we pray, amen and amen.

- "Confuse them, Lord, divide their tongues,
For I have seen violence and strife

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus the Messiah is as much on the side of either of these at war, as He is on the side of either Mike Tyson or Lennox Lewis when they went to war in the ring.

To bring it more up to date, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus the Messiah is as much on the side of either of these at war, as He is on the side of either Tyson Fury or Anthony Joshua when they go to war in the ring this year.

"The LORD your God, who goes before you, He will fight for you, according to all He did for you in Egypt before your eyes…No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life; as I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not leave you nor forsake you." (Deuteronomy 1:30 and Joshua 1:5)

Joel 3:1-21 ESV

"For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, on behalf of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up my land, and have cast lots for my people, and have traded a boy for a prostitute, and have sold a girl for wine and have drunk it. "What are you to me, O Tyre and Sidon, and all the regions of Philistia? Are you paying me back for something? If you are paying me back, I will return your payment on your own head swiftly and speedily. For you have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried my rich treasures into your temples. ...

\t"On your walls, O Jerusalem,
I have set watchmen;
all the day and all the night
they shall never be silent.
You who put the Lord in remembrance,
take no rest,
\t\tand give him no rest
until he establishes Jerusalem
and makes it a praise in the earth.
(Isaiah 62:6,7)

Hamas Charter - Article 22. It tells you all you need to know about these fiends.

Hamas is evil no doubt. But Bibi is evil no doubt also.

An article from over 2 years ago, which is but the tip of the iceberg;

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-i-thought-bibi-was-amoral-he-s-not-he-s-evil-thanks-to-him-kahane-lives-1.6954722

Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?” "Neither,” he replied, "but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?”

Isaiah 41:8-14

But you, Israel, My servant,
Jacob whom I have chosen,
Descendant of Abraham My friend,
9 You whom I have ataken from the ends of the earth,
And called from its remotest parts
And said to you, ‘You are My servant,
I have chosen you and not rejected you.
10 ‘Do not fear, for I am with you;
Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God.
I will strengthen you, surely I will help you,
Surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.’
11 "Behold, all those who are angered at you will be shamed and dishonored;
Those who contend with you will be as nothing and will perish.
12 "You will seek those who quarrel with you, but will not find them,
Those who war with you will be as nothing and non-existent.
13 "For I am the Lord your God, who upholds your right hand,
Who says to you, ‘Do not fear, I will help you.’
14 "Do not fear, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel;
I will help you,” declares the Lord, "and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.

Matthew 3:1-9

In those days John the Baptist came into the wilderness of Judea proclaiming, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” For he is the one about whom Isaiah the prophet had spoken:

"The voice of one shouting in the wilderness,

‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make his paths straight.’”

Now John wore clothing made from camel’s hair with a leather belt around his waist, and his diet consisted of locusts and wild honey. Then people from Jerusalem, as well as all Judea and all the region around the Jordan, were going out to him, and he was baptizing them in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins.

But when he saw many Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You offspring of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Therefore produce fruit that proves your repentance, and don’t think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that God can raise up children for Abraham from these stones!

Matthew 12:46-50

While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, His mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to Him. Someone told Him, "Look, Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to You.”

But Jesus replied, "Who is My mother, and who are My brothers?” Pointing to His disciples, He said, "Here are My mother and My brothers. For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

John 1:10-13

He was in the world, and the world came into existence through Him, and the world did not recognize Him. He came to the things that were His own, and His own people gave Him no welcome. But all who have received Him, to them””that is, to those who trust in His name””He has given the privilege of becoming children of God; who were begotten as such not by human descent, nor through an impulse of their own nature, nor through the will of a human father, but from God.

John 8:30-59

As Jesus spoke these things, many believed in Him. So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

"We are Abraham’s descendants,” they answered. "We have never been slaves to anyone. How can You say we will be set free?”

Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you. I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

"Abraham is our father,” they replied.

"If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, "you would do the works of Abraham. But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. You are doing the works of your father.”

"We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. "Our only Father is God Himself.”

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.

Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!

Which of you can prove Me guilty of sin? If I speak the truth, why do you not believe Me? Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Before Abraham Was Born, I Am

The Jews answered Him, "Are we not right to say that You are a Samaritan and You have a demon?”

"I do not have a demon,” Jesus replied, "but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. I do not seek My own glory. There is One who seeks it, and He is the Judge. Truly, truly, I tell you, if anyone keeps My word, he will never see death.”

"Now we know that You have a demon!” declared the Jews. "Abraham died, and so did the prophets, yet You say that anyone who keeps Your word will never taste death. Are You greater than our father Abraham? He died, as did the prophets. Who do You claim to be?”

Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory means nothing. The One who glorifies Me is My Father, of whom you say ‘He is our God.’ You do not know Him, but I know Him. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him, and I keep His word. Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see My day. He saw it and was glad.”

Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”

"Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, "before Abraham was born, I am!”

At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple area.

______________________________

Jesus speaks to all flesh the same way. Irregardless of their being Jews or Gentiles.

Romans 8:9

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.

Israel and the Nations:

Lance Lambert

https://youtu.be/cHxcBV7AX3A

I can't speak for God and what His plans are for the "EARTHLY" state of Israel in its current form.

What I do know though is that, at one point, Israel thought the meaning and power of their worship and affiliation lie with a serpent statue (for lack of a better term) that Moses made to save the camp. Yet, during God's moving of His Spirit during Hezekiah's time, it's labeled "Nehushtan". And this is before the Cross of Jesus the Christ, and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in a born-again believer.

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! (Romans 11:1

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! (Romans 11:11,12)

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way
all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” (Romans 11:25-27)

"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:28-30)

The salvation of Israel by John MacArthur:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uWIohv0HuQ

Galatians 6:10

So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who belong to the family of faith.

So then, as we have opportunity, let's do what is good toward all men, and especially toward those who are of the household of the faith.

______________________________

According to the verse above, we christians are to bless all people without distinction.

Yet we're told to bestow a special blessing on certain ones. Those who are believers in Messiah.

Consider: 🤔

The Greek Lexicon gives us a fuller definition of the word "especially", translated from the Greek word "malista"

STRONGS NT 3122: μάλιστα

μάλιστα (superlative of the adverb μάλα) (from Homer down), adverb, especially, chiefly, most of all, above all:

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

chiefly, most of all, especially.
Neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb mala (very); (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly -- chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially. 😉

"Do good to all people.”
Amen !

We are even commanded to love and pray for our enemies!

2 Chronicles 19:2

Jehu son of Hanani the seer went out to confront him and said to King Jehoshaphat, "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Because of this, the wrath of the LORD is upon you.

The nation of Israel is anti-Christ. To stand with/for Israel is = to helping anti-Christ.

If any one is destitute of love to the Lord, let him be accursed.The Lord hath come! 1 Corinthians 16:22

Savannah Quote:

"The nation of Israel is anti-Christ. To stand with/for Israel is = to helping anti-Christ.”

Your hatred of Israel reveals your heart.

"I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”
- Genesis 12:1-3

For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent, for Jerusalem’s sake I will not remain quiet, till her righteousness shines out like the dawn, her salvation like a blazing torch.
- Isaiah 62:1

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they that love thee shall prosper. Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces. For my brethren and companions’ sakes, I will say now, peace be within thee. For the sake of the House of the Lord our God I will seek thy good.
”“ Psalm 122

"I have posted watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem; they will never be silent day or night. You who call on the LORD, give yourselves no rest, and give him no rest till he establishes Jerusalem and makes her the praise of the earth.”
”“ Isaiah 62:6-7

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life😇; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life😬, but the wrath of God abides on him😩.” John 3:36

I am my beloved's and my beloved is mine ❤️
Song of Solomon 6:3

Though they are ‘not all Israel who are called Israel’ and though there are Jews who are called by the Lord ‘the synagogue of satan’ ...never the less, Romans chapter 11 reveals the very heart of God in a way that cannot be dismissed or explained away...

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,

31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.”

by savannah on 2021/5/19 1:45:48

[The nation of Israel is anti-Christ. To stand with/for Israel is = to helping anti-Christ]

This statement grieves me, especially when it comes from a Christian. Did you know that the Iranian Christians have a fervent love for their nations arch enemy Israel?

Israel is a fallen nation, and they are just as far from God as any other group of sinners. It does not mean we should blindly endorse everything they do, but we should not forget, that we Gentiles only are engrafted into the commonwealth of Israel. We owe them the bible, the New Covenant and our salvation and the Messiah. They suffered greatly through history because of their waywardness, but we have the benefit to learn from their recorded failures and troubles. Our Father blessed them with material blessings regardless, but they also bore harsh persecution for 2 milleniums.

We Gentiles can easily be moved to jealousy, because so many earthly riches, fame, genius and blessing just fall into their laps. What we cannot acchieve by striving, they just get with their mothers milk.

Let us move them to jealousy by serving their rejected Messiah.

We are like street children who the mother invited into her
house and batherd and fed them because her own children would not come home for supper.

Unsaved Israel will go through deep trouble soon, but we should pray that they will find their Messiah who will finally reveal himself to them like Joseph did to his brethren.

I will stand with Israel, regardless how estranged they are from God. The antichrist is just a tool to drive them to cry out to God who will save them though they least deserve it - just like us!

Ro 11:15 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

The word Israel can mean different things to different people today. Can be used for good or even evil.

From your article you must be thinking of Israel of old standing by the river singing songs by Moses and David.

The two witnesses have to go down to Israel at the end. Wonder why. Do they still cling to the Old Covenant or have they moved to the new Noahide law as their system? Law number 1 has sub sections which call for decapitation of those who commit idolatry which includes worshiping Jesus.

I'm sure Jesus is happy over those new Noahide Laws and that red heifer they sacrificed recently and surely that new temple in the works. Seems like there will be a strange fellow residing in it when Jesus returns.

Looking at today's Israel created by the Rothschilds in 1948 they plan on ruling the world. That according to the two books, "The Jewish Utopia" and "The Greater Israeli Project".

How they forgot that Israel's
wives came from Syria. Now they want Laban's oil and land. The Rabbi's keep telling us how that everyone will be a slave for Israel in the days ahead. How they will learn to love the Jew while being a slave. I've listened to a lot of those Rabbi's speak; scary bunch.

Why just recently I even found out that Israel created Hamas. Have to have someone make you look as though you are the victim of hate. The Washington Post in Jan 30, 2014, The Wall Street journal Jan 30 2009, and The Inrercept of Feb 20, 1978 all mention how Israel created Hamas. They have to get rockets to shoot into Israel you know.

Israel indeed is a problem. A serious one. There are many Christian Jews there who don't like the present government. There are Christians in the Gaza strip. Not all Arabs are Muslims. There are many Christians in Damascus yet too many believers want to see it bombed.

As for God granting the victory, Well Israel has around 200 nukes, and several hundred planes with lots of missiles but then the Palestinians have rocks.

I would be very careful of supporting the present government of Israel. Isn't the world doing the same? Isn't the world's new HQ supposed to be there. Aren't all the technology companies moving there? Seems like on the reverse side of the Cyrus coin is a vaccine needle. And then there is that secret society that is rooted there.

Jesus mentioned about cleaning an evil spirit out of a person in a parable in Matthew 12. Then there was a nice swept, dry place. Then the evil spirit would take seven more evil spirits and return back to where he came. Imagine this happening to earthly Jerusalem. All the major religions being part of the New World Order at Jerusalem. I imagine that would be a wicked place. Most of us are pretty sure Jerusalem will be the capitol of the Beast system.

God fights for Israel; the church. He intercedes for her every day.

RogerB said,

"God fights for Israel; the church. He intercedes for her every day."

No hate speech there!

The Lamb has one wife, not two!

This love affair with the nation of Israel is merely a christianized racism.

Acts 10:34,35

Then Peter began to speak: "I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right.

Romans 2:9-11

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

Colossians 3:25

Whoever does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.

James 2:1, 9

My brothers, as you hold out your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, do not show favoritism...
But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

______________________________

To put one race of people in a different category than others, is a classic example/definition of racism.

There are only;

Sheep and goats
Wheat and tares
Righteous and wicked
Saint and sinner
Sons of God and sons of adam
Children of God and children of the devil.

I only briefly want to comment on what's most important.
narrowpath wrote: " but we should not forget, that we Gentiles only are engrafted into the commonwealth of Israel. We owe them the bible, the New Covenant and our salvation and the Messiah..."
You are a preacher...how can you say that ?

The Bible is the Word of God...it is from God
The New Covenant was given by Jesus
We can have Salvation only because GOD so loved the World that HE gave us His only begotten Son
and Jesus became obedient even unto death on the cross.

Hi RogerB,

Israel indeed is a problem. A serious one. There are many Christian Jews there who don't like the present government. There are Christians in the Gaza strip. Not all Arabs are Muslims. There are many Christians in Damascus yet too many believers want to see it bombed.

I think that there is a misunderstanding about what a "nation" might be. Consider the nation of the "United States of America." When was America "born?"

Some people would point to July 4, 1776. Yet, the states existed before that time. The inhabitants considered themselves "Americans." Yet, throughout the American War of Independence, there was independent state governance and a Continental Congress.

At the end of the Revolutionary (in 1781), the soon-to-be-independent states ratified the Articles of Confederation. Yet, the government of the United States of this document lasted just eight years.

In 1789, the states finally ratified the Constitution for the United States of America. This has been the binding document for the United States ever since.

Yet, between 1861 and 1865, there was a great Civil War. Southern States created their own government. They adopted the Constitution of the Confederate States of America on March 11, 1861. It was dissolved with the surrender at Appomattox Courthouse in 1865.

During all of that time, there has been three separate documents governing this "nation" (not including the individual state documents and even the claim that the U.S. was born out of an illegal insurrection against King George and the government of Great Britain.

Despite this, the people were still a "nation." This despite the fact that the U.S. is effectively a "nation without a people" -- because we come out of many.

Most nations in history (aside from empires and modern global nations) are tribal in origin. The Rus (Russians) existed long before "Russia," during the Soviet Union and even after. If the Putin regime were destroyed and the current constitution of that nation was burned, the nation of "Russia" would still exist (with or without a government).

Likewise, Israel is not a government. It isn't even the government of the nation known as "Israel" (re-founded in 1948). Rather, it is actually a TRIBE.

Physically speaking, this tribal "nation" consists descendants of Abraham. If the current parliament and government of Israel dissolved, the "nation" would still exist. This is because the "nation" is not the same as the documents or laws that bind it.

After all, Israel still existed even after hundreds of years of mostly corrupt and pagan Israelite kings. The tribal nation existed even after the captivity began -- and throughout the diaspora. It existed even throughout pagan Roman occupation.

The "nation" of Israel didn't need a king. In fact, Samuel encouraged the nation to NOT desire or request a king (I Samuel 8:10-22). Israel was a great nation long before they had a king and long after the last kings died.

In other words, Israel is a nation no matter what earthly government or legal documents govern the people at this time. Believers can support the "nation" of Israel despite some of them calling into question the government -- because a nation is not the product of the government (but, rather, the other way around).

As for God granting the victory, Well Israel has around 200 nukes, and several hundred planes with lots of missiles but then the Palestinians have rocks.

Actually, this isn't quite accurate. Hamas has been shooting more than a THOUSAND rockets indiscriminately at civilian targets in Israel. The "Iron Dome" and Patriot missile defense has destroyed most of them.

Essentially, Hamas is like the guy with a criminal record who kills both of his parents and then, after he is punished, goes to the media begging for public support on account that he is now an "orphan."

So, in this earthly sense, I believe that Israel (the nation) is entitled to defend itself from Palestinian aggressors.

Hi Markus,

The Bible is the Word of God...it is from God
The New Covenant was given by Jesus
We can have Salvation only because GOD so loved the World that HE gave us His only begotten Son
and Jesus became obedient even unto death on the cross.

Amen!

Hi narrowpath,

I just want to turn our total devotion back to God, that our eyes will be fixed on the Lord Jesus alone (Heb. 12:1-2) and our hearts will exalt and worship and give glory to God only.

Ps. 115:1 ”“
Not to us, O LORD, not to us,
But to Your name give glory
Because of Your lovingkindness, because of Your truth.

We owe them the bible, the New Covenant and our salvation and the Messiah.

If we preach the gospel and people believe, do we assert that these believers owe us the gospel message, the New Covenant, their salvation and Jesus Himself?

I hope not.

We are only servants through whom they believe, and God alone is to be acknowledged, thanked and praised.

As Peter said to Cornelius, "Stand up; I too am just a man (Acts 10:26).”

Scripture says that the Jews were "entrusted with the oracles of God” (Rom. 3:2), and "from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen (Rom. 9:5).”

It was their great privilege to serve the purpose of God and praise and glory is not to them but to God alone.

No one is indebted to them "for the bible, the New Covenant and our salvation and the Messiah”. NOTHING came to us from them.

1 Cor. 8:6 ”“
yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, THROUGH WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, and through whom we live.

Rom. 11:35-36 ”“
Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

that we Gentiles only are engrafted into the commonwealth of Israel.

Eph. 2:11-18 ”“
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh””who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands”” 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now IN CHRIST JESUS you who once were far off have been brought near BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.
14 For HE HIMSELF is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh THE ENMITY, THAT IS, THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For THROUGH HIM we both have ACCESS BY ONE SPIRIT TO THE FATHER.

Comment:
The Jews were equally separated from God by the enmity that is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Israel had nothing to boast about.

Isa. 5:1-2 ”“
Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:
My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
He dug it all around, cleared it of stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
And He built a tower in the middle of it,
And also carved out a wine vat in it;
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.

Rom. 3:9,22-23 ”“
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin………… for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Comment:
The church is IN CHRIST, not in the Jewish people. Is the church grafted into the vine that produced worthless fruits? Certainly not. We are in Christ, the True Vine. We are His branches.
Unless the Jewish people are also IN CHRIST, they have NO access to the Father and remain cut off from God.

We are like street children who the mother invited into her house and batherd and fed them because her own children would not come home for supper.

Rom. 3:29 --
Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

God had very long ago promised to bless ALL the families of the earth (Gen.12:3, Gen. 17:4-5)) in Christ (Gal. 3:16).

Rom. 3:9-10 ”“
…………both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE……

Isa. 53:6 ”“
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

The Gentiles are God’s precious lost sheep from another fold that the Good Shepherd is bringing home to God. Praise the Lord!

Acts 10:34-35 ”“
Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

Rom. 10:12-13 ””
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

We Gentiles can easily be moved to jealousy, because so many earthly riches, fame, genius and blessing just fall into their laps. What we cannot acchieve by striving, they just get with their mothers milk.

Jealous of their "earthly riches, fame, genius and blessing”?

Phil. 3:7-11 ”“
But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

It is the other way round.

Rom. 11:11 ”“
But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

Ps. 147:11 ”“
The LORD favors those who fear Him,
Those who wait for His lovingkindness.

God bless the church which is the body of Christ, the temple of God and the Israel of God!

Lance Lambert has many excellent biblical teachings on the nation of Israel, the Jewish people, and Israel in the last days

https://www.lancelambert.org/messages/#1478114998168-617c0b3c-c10a

Hamas was Israel's creation. I don't know all the details of why. It's like the US; we fund both sides It's very troubling because the question of Israel has caused division in the churches. This creation of Hams has created a monster. I understand that Israel pays Hamas around 30 million a month.

Here's a link to a recent article:

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

Hi RogerB,

Hamas was Israel's creation. I don't know all the details of why.

Hamas is actually an acronym that translates to "Islamic Resistance Movement." It created its own charter covenant in 1988 (the "Hamas Covenant") that declares that Hamas is made up of all "Muslims who fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors."

The Hamas Covenant calls for the complete extermination of Jews -- with no distinction of where they live. It literally exists to destroy the descendants of Israel. In other words, the "nation of Israel" to Hamas is not the government in the promised land. Rather, they want to destroy the people descended from Abraham through Isaac. That is the nation that Hamas is motivated to destroy.

Hamas won power in the Palestinian territories in 2006 through elections. Whereas the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) was secular and motivated by secular goals, Hamas married the radical extremism and violence of the Muslim Brotherhood with the secular "struggle" of the PLO. It is the Palestinian version of the "Islamic Revolution" that turned Persian Iran into a radical Islamic theocracy.

To claim that "Hamas was Israel's creation" is like saying that a person instigated a car burglary/car theft because he parked at Walmart with a backpack in the back seat. While the decision to leave a backpack might not seem wise, the motivation to destroy a window and steal is entirely the thief's.

Even more accurately (using the conspiracy theory analogy that radical left-wing/Islamic journalist Mehdi Hasam uses), it is like blaming the U.S. for the creation of Al Qaeda. The conspiracy theorists point that the U.S. funded and armed resistance groups in Afghanistan who were fighting against the Soviet invasion. Later, Al Qaeda turned away from the retreating Soviet army and used their influence to fight against the U.S.

The idea that the U.S. created Al Qaeda is ludicrous. It is a stretch of the imagination that is similar to making lines that connects stars to create imaginary monsters in the night sky. The same is true with the notion that Israel created Hamas.

It's like the US; we fund both sides

It's very troubling because the question of Israel has caused division in the churches.

If we understand the concepts of mercy and grace, we wouldn't rely upon the use of rhetorical absolutes with one another regarding issues that aren't clearly essential in the Word of God.

Several years ago, I spoke to a guy who didn't believe in using musical instruments to worship the Lord. He went on and on about his reasons why (none of which I felt were Biblical). Ultimately, he stated that one reason why Christians and churches should use instruments was because of the "division that they cause" among believers.

I don't think that there is much division in the church over this. In fact, I suspect that this is far removed as a major issue to most believers.

We might ponder these issues. We might disagree on the ideas of "replacement theology" -- and whether the Jews are still important in God's timetable of prophetic events. We might even argue over whether the Covenant with Abraham still pertains to the Jews and the land of Israel. However, it isn't a deep division rather than a difference of opinions.

This creation of Hams has created a monster. I understand that Israel pays Hamas around 30 million a month.

Here's a link to a recent article:

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

I believe the understanding of Israel's and our role in God's economy and the unfolding of end time events will be a key question.

Among fellow believers I had encountered gentile Christian who eat kosher food, celebrate jewish festivals and hold the star of David dearer than the cross of Christ.

Mind you, I have once openly and publically challenged a Jewish preacher, who tried to tell us to keep jewish festivals. I am not a follower of the Hebrew roots movement.

Then I have encountered replacement theology adhearants that border on anti-semitism.

God has started his plan of salvation through Israel. Through their rejection of Messiah by and large salvation has to come to us gentiles. We wild shoots are engrafted into their olive tree. God will finsh this dispensation by turning back to Israel through Jacob's trouble which is the seventieth week of Daniel. The plucked out original shoots will be grafted back.

God used gentile nations to chastise Isreal throughout history, but later on all these nations, including my Germany paid a heavy penalty for it. Jeremiah pronounced judgment against Egypt, Moab, Ammon, and the Philistines (nowaday Palestines, who orignated from Caphor, which is Crete and Cyprus) and Babylon and the Chaldeans. Ezekiel pronounced judgment on the Edomites who avenged themselves on the Isrealites while they were raided by Babylon.

So we have to watch out our dealings with Israel.
Britain lost their empire, because they messed up the division of Palestine between Arabs and Jews. Their economy was depleted for decades, and it started to prosper after Margret Thatcher outspokenly supported Israel.

Germany was destroyed after WW2 but experienced an economic miracle afterwards. I believe it was because we supported Israel right after their foundation in 1948.

Americas prosperity was furthered by your unyielding support for Israel - so far so good. I am ancious to see whether Biden will continue to stand with them.

So far no nation that was engaged in hostility towards Isreal ever prospered in the long run.

As far as salvation is concerned, they are just as lost as the Muslims, but God has never broken his covenenant with Israel though they have.

Should we adopted children not love God's covenantal children, regardless of their position towards their saviour?
They will have to be adopted, too.

The old and the New Covenant was made with Israel, and we, the church participate in it through our and their saviour.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

A good and balanced source of teaching about Israel can be found on David Pawsons website https://www.davidpawson.co.uk/resources/topical-teaching/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

Looking at both sides, there is a legitimate question over it's creation. I had seen 3 sources saying yes and others saying no. Truth is a rare thing today.

Here's a link to one who says no
https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Mossad-create-Hamas-It-is-a-fact-they-did

Hi RogerB,

Looking at both sides, there is a legitimate question over it's creation. I had seen 3 sources saying yes and others saying no. Truth is a rare thing today.

In fact, this comes down to an assertion that somehow the government (and people) of Israel is somehow partly culpable in "creating" or "spawning" the terrorists who try to kill and destroy them. It's something of a "Frankenstein's monster" fallacy (or conspiracy).

The people who are making this claim are basing it upon another unproven claim that Israel saw Hamas as a "counterweight" of the PLO (*which was also violent yet secular at the time). Yet, the clash was really between the predecessor of Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the PLO.

The PLO and the Muslim Brotherhood clashed often with one another -- because the PLO sought secular legitimacy for their cause while Muslim Brotherhood was entirely a fundamentalist Islamic organization. The Muslim Brotherhood later morphed more and more into terrorism. Hamas, on the other hand, was created because its founders thought that the Muslim Brotherhood wasn't violent or fundamentalist enough.

One other analogy is to claim that the U.S. was responsible for the Soviet military expansion during the Cold War. Why?

1939 - The Soviets and Nazis signed a non-aggression pact.

1940 - Nazi Germany, Italy and Japan sign the Tripartite Pact (creating the Axis powers). Other Axis powers include Bulgaria, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Croatia and Thailand.

1941 - Nazi Germany violates their non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union and invades the western parts of Russia, the Baltics, Ukraine and Moldovia. Finland (who had been at war with the Soviets) joins the Axis powers.

1941 - The Soviet Union joins the Allies.

1941 - Later that year, the U.S. joins the Allied powers after Japanese attacks Pearl Harbor and other U.S. interests in the Pacific.

1941 - The United States subsequently declares war against the Empire of Japan and the Axis powers.

1944 - The U.S. works with Russia to attack Axis opponents. In addition to fighting on the Western Front, the U.S. assists the Soviet Union with arms and intelligence for the Eastern Front.

1945 - The Allies are victorious over the Axis.

1946 - Soviet expansion into the nations around it progresses rapidly. Churchill says, "From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an 'iron curtain' has descended across the continent." This is the beginning of the Cold War.

However, the alliance only existed to stop the more immediate threat of the Nazis and Axis powers. It wasn't an endorsement. It wasn't a philosophical friendship.

The claim that Israel supported Hamas is not true anyway. However, even if it was, it wouldn't mean that Israel was responsible for Hamas trying to destroy Israel. After all, Hamas literally has in its Hamas Covenant charter calling for the extermination of Jews (everywhere in the world).

The first article that you cited is an op-ed from an Islamic political activist (Medhi Hanan). Even the Andrew Higgans article doesn't claim that Israel "created" Hamas but that they simply allowed it to "spawn" -- but only in the sense that the Israeli government allowed its predecessor (the Muslim Brotherhood) to exist.

Other than that, the "spawn" claim rests on the idea that the Israeli government did not take the steps to prevent the Muslim Brotherhood from becoming more violent and causing the fractured birth of Hamas. This is very different from "creating" or even "spawning" Hamas.

To be very clear: Israel did not create an organization that wants to exterminate the nation of Israel around the world.

I suppose that my biggest issue here is in staking something like this in the first place. If we haven't rightly tested everything, then we shouldn't treat a claim as truth. In fact, I think that we shouldn't even allege it.

Let me be clear: Hamas isn't trying to stake its claim on land. It wants to utterly destroy the nation of Israel. This doesn't mean that they want to topple the government or chase Jews away from the Palestinian territories or even all of the "promised land."

Rather, Hamas has made a covenant to EXTERMINATE ALL JEWS. Period. They see the "nation of Israel" not as a government but as a people. They want them dead. They also want the land that God promised Abraham as an allotment for Isaac's descendants.

So, Hamas attempts to kill and destroy Israeli citizens. They've launched over a thousand rockets into Israel. When the official government of Israel responds with military force, Palestinians (who elected Hamas) then claim that they are "victims of Zionist aggression." Their claim is both baffling and dishonest.

Hi narrowpath,

Then I have encountered replacement theology adhearants that border on anti-semitism.

At the other extreme, there are those who condemn "replacement theology” who are almost idol worshipping the Jewish people.

I have NOTHING against the Jewish people.

I am ALL FOR JESUS and His church which is God’s dwelling place (Eph. 2:19-22), and "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His possession (1 Pet. 2:9, Berean Literal Bible)”.

God loves ALL people (John 3:16) and desires ALL men to be saved (2 Tim. 2:1-4).

………… replacement theology …………

How do you explain away the following scripture?

Rom. 2:28-29 ”“
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Col. 2:11 ”“
and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Rom. 9:6-8 ”“
For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Gal. 4:28 ”“
And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

Gal. 3:26-29 ”“
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

God has started his plan of salvation through Israel.

The Lord Jesus is the beginning and the end, the alpha and the omega of our salvation.

Rev. 21:5-6 ”“
And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new."
And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.”

God had already begun the work of salvation of mankind right at the dawn of creation, immediately following Adam’s fall, long before the Jewish people existed, with the promise that the seed of the woman would bruise the serpent’s head (Gen. 3:15).

Indeed, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8).

Our salvation in Christ was already granted to us from all eternity before time.

2 Tim. 1:8-11 ”“
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus FROM ALL ETERNITY, but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

Titus 1:2 ”“
in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised BEFORE TIME BEGAN,

Salvation in Christ was secured by the promises in the Abrahamic Covenant for all mankind, not just for the Jewish people (Rom. 4:18, Gal. 3:16, 26-29, etc.).

We wild shoots are engrafted into their olive tree.

Grateful if you can explain what to you is "their olive tree”.

It is in JESUS HIMSELF, the Root of Jesse, that the Gentiles hope.

Rom. 15:12 ”“
Again Isaiah says, "THERE SHALL COME THE ROOT OF JESSE, AND HE WHO ARISES TO RULE OVER THE GENTILES, IN HIM WILL THE GENTILES HOPE.”

Rev.22:16 ”“
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

The plucked out original shoots will be grafted back.

Into what are they grafted back?

God will finsh this dispensation by turning back to Israel through Jacob's trouble which is the seventieth week of Daniel.

Scripture says that Jesus will return like a thief in the night (Matt. 24:43, 1 Thess. 5:2, 2 Pet, 3:10).

How can this be if there is a fixed 7-year timeline for His return in the "70th Week”?

So far no nation that was engaged in hostility towards Isreal ever prospered in the long run.

That is right.

Even Paul was arrested and put in chains (Acts 28:20).

This is Paul’s catalogue of his misfortunes:

2 Cor. 11:23-27 ”“
…………in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death. Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure.

So we have to watch out our dealings with Israel.
Britain lost their empire, because they messed up the division of Palestine between Arabs and Jews. Their economy was depleted for decades, and it started to prosper after Margret Thatcher outspokenly supported Israel.

Isn’t this in line with Paul’s experience?

Do you grasp what I am trying to say?

Should we adopted children not love God's covenantal children, regardless of their position towards their saviour?
They will have to be adopted, too.

God loves ALL people in ALL nations (John 3:16) and so should we.

The Lord Jesus has commanded:

John 13:34”“
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

Matt. 5:44 ”“
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

So, definitely, no Christian should hate the Jewish people.

Do Christians who have aligned themselves with Israel remember their Palestinian brothers and sister and love their Palestinian enemies?

God promised Abraham in Gen. 17:5 that he would be father of a multitude of nations, so Gentiles are "God’s covenantal children” too.

The old and the New Covenant was made with Israel, and we, the church participate in it through our and their saviour.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

The New Covenant is for All believers in Christ, the Israel of God in Christ.

It was to Jewish BELIEVERS and not the Jewish nation that the Lord Jesus said the New Covenant was for

Luke 22:20 ”“
Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

"for you” = the apostles with Him (v.14).

And it is also for Gentile believers ”“ 1 Cor. 11:23-26.

Paul’s ministry to the Gentiles was a New Covenant ministry ”“ 2 Cor. 3.

It is the CHURCH who has come to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant (Heb. 12:22-24).

--------------------

Once I believed as you do. It took me a while to re-focus. But I have searched the scriptures and am confident of my present position.

I recommend listening to ALL views with an open mind and, just as the Bereans did (Acts 17:11), examine the Scriptures for the truth.

Blessings

Hi Jade,

I know all that.

You have made up your mind already. I will not even try to persuade you, because that would just be a battle in the flesh.

In Christ, the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile is broken down.

In Christ there is no longer Jew or Gentile, but their is still ethnic Israel which is by and large still outside Christ.

Paul wrote:
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

This is hard to stomach: Their emnity furthered my salvation,
Isn't that grossly unfair? It makes me weep for my undeserved grace and causes in me an intense longing that their enmity will be turned around to surrender to their Messiah, too!

Where we perhaps differ is the future events where a all apostate unbelieving Jews that survived the tribulation will in the hour of greatest trouble will turn to their rejected Messiah at his return at the conclusion of this age.

I have been ministering to the Chinese for many years, and I have an affinity towards them, but as far as the Jews are concerned I have a special love, perhaps because my nation committed such heinous crimes against them.

You said:
Scripture says that Jesus will return like a thief in the night (Matt. 24:43, 1 Thess. 5:2, 2 Pet, 3:10).

He will also appear at the last trump, which is at the end of the tribulation period.

These verses seem to contradict each other, but they are both true and perfectly aligned. These verses can be reconciled, but that would lead us into a pre/post trib debate.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the last week of Daniel:

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

and at the end he will return to save all Israel, that is the ethnic people group. Unregenerate, unbelieving Israel will finally come to surrender to their rejected Messiah!

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I just state what my state of revelation is on that topic.
There are still mysteries about it that I cannot explain or fathom, but they do not cause me a head ache but rather make me marvel at God's greatness. So I can say with Paul

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever.

Amen.

//Where we perhaps differ is the future events where a all apostate unbelieving Jews that survived the tribulation will in the hour of greatest trouble will turn to their rejected Messiah at his return at the conclusion of this age.//

I have to admit this statement bugs me a tad. I thought even "left behinders” believe that at Christ’s Second coming it’s too late to repent. But statements like yours suggest it’s too late for everyone except the Jewish people who will somehow be ushered in simply because they are Jewish.

Perhaps I am mis-stating what you are saying or what you believe- if so please clarify your position. But it is my understanding that at the Second Coming there is mourning only for unbelievers (including non believing Jews) and repentance is no longer an option for anyone.

I just want to focus a bit more on what I believe is important for all mankind, Jews, Greeks and Gentiles.
Jade wrote: "God had already begun the work of salvation of mankind right at the dawn of creation, immediately following Adam’s fall, long before the Jewish people existed, with the promise that the seed of the woman would bruise the serpent’s head (Gen. 3:15). Amen.

Now a quote which we see often in discussions with Israel
"I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” - Gen 12:1-3
Here God spoke to Abram, Not to today's nation of Israel.
To quote this verse here is very dangerous and misleading as I will show.

Here is what God said about curses and blessings for mankind:
Jeremiah 17:5 This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind, who makes the flesh his strength and turns his heart from the LORD. 6He will be like a shrub in the desert; he will not see when prosperity comes. He will dwell in the parched places of the desert, in a salt land where no one lives. 7But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in Him.…
Deut. 11:28 but a curse if you disobey the commandments of the LORD your God and turn aside from the path I command you
today by following other gods, which you have not known.…
Again "But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him. He will be like a tree planted by the water that sends out its roots by the stream..."

Now a few points about the history of Israel, starting from Egypt:
Exodus 3:7 The LORD said, "I have indeed seen the affliction of My people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their oppressors, and I am aware of their sufferings. 8I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey..."

It started with God's mercy !
God sent the 10 plagues
He divided the red sea
He drowned the army of the enemy.
He provided for His children in the Wilderness.

But the people... fell into idolatry, which is the worship of something other than God.This is at the root of all sin because sin seeks to steal glory from God, to whom alone it is due, and take it for the sinner.
And Judges 8:34 "The Israelites failed to remember the LORD their God who had delivered them from the hands of all their enemies on every side. 35They did not show kindness to the house of Jerubbaal (that is, Gideon) for all the good things he had done for Israel.…"

What does all this mean for us?
All that matters is what God says:
1 Cor. 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall.…
Let's learn from those examples and let's take the warnings serious !

How can we "bless" Israel and mankind ?
With the Gospel !

Markus

The hatred for Israel and the Jewish people is demonic, and every true born again Christian that is walking in the light loves all men, because Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men.

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. (1 John 2:9-11)

There is a number of folk here on SI , who think that God is finished with Israel and any promises concerning Israel have been taken from them and given to the church. You do not openly say it, but it is implied in your responses.

@Jade:
[It was to Jewish BELIEVERS and not the Jewish nation that the Lord Jesus said the New Covenant was for]

[At the other extreme, there are those who condemn "replacement theology” who are almost idol worshipping the Jewish people.]
Re-read my post, I you find that I have also challanged Judaizers and do not endorse the Hebrew Root movement.

The New Covenant is with the HOUSE of Israel, that is the 11 tribes and NATION of Israel + Judah - Jeremiah 31:31.
Gods covenants are unilateral, God always keeps his part, despite their unbelieve and rejection of Christ. The Old Covenant has been fulfilled in Christ and the New Covenent with the HOUSE of Israel is eternal and still valid and will be consumated.

Through the Jews unbelief and rejection, the door has been opened to us Gentiles to participate as church in God's covenant with the House of Israel.
The door is still open for unbelieving Israel and they will receive their Messiah in the end.

read on in Jeremiah 31
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a NATION before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

[It is in JESUS HIMSELF, the Root of Jesse, that the Gentiles hope.] You said it yourself the "root of Jesse" that is the issue of Isai, David's father from the tribe of Judah. Of course, it was God's plan from the beginning to bring salvation to the Gentiles, and he started with Israel and then it was extended and even shifted to largely the Gentiles - until the time of the Gentiles is full. In the end salvation will come to all Israel:

Romans 11:26 And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

[Quote: The plucked out original shoots will be grafted back.
Into what are they grafted back?
Grateful if you can explain what to you is "their olive tree”.]
Read Romans 11:15-18

[Once I believed as you do. It took me a while to re-focus. But I have searched the scriptures and am confident of my present position.]
For me it was the other way round!

@Todd
[//Where we perhaps differ is the future events where a all apostate unbelieving Jews that survived the tribulation will in the hour of greatest trouble will turn to their rejected Messiah at his return at the conclusion of this age.//

I have to admit this statement bugs me a tad. I thought even "left behinders” believe that at Christ’s Second coming it’s too late to repent.]

Far from it; the Jews will repent bitterly at the return of Christ, not for damnation but for salvation:

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

@Markus
["I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” - Gen 12:1-3
Here God spoke to Abram, Not to today's nation of Israel.
To quote this verse here is very dangerous and misleading as I will show.]
This promise went on from Abraham through Isaak and then Jacob. This does not apply to Ishmael or Esau.

[Let's learn from those examples and let's take the warnings serious ! How can we "bless" Israel and mankind ?
With the Gospel !]
Absolutely, and we need to bring the gospel to the Jews. They need to see our faith expressed in works.
The thing is, they have a sharp eye for any hypocrisy and inconsistance in a believer who tries to witness to them.
Art Katz was lead to Christ through gentile believers

-----

Many Jews are very suspicious about the church, and unfortunately they can deliver many proofs for it. But it was the mainly the false Romish Church, and unregenerated protestants.
There also have been many examples of Christians who risked their lifes to save Jews.

I once sat in a plane with a group of hasidic students. Their leader sat in the seat next to me. These young lad's spend 16 hours a day studying the Torah in their original languages, Hebrew and Aramaic.
He took out his scriptures and I took out my bible. We had an interesting conversation. I pointed him to several scriptures in Leviticus, Daniel, Isaiah and Zecheriah.

He was absolutely blind to see the references to Jesus - but I know for sure that God will one day take away this thick blanket from their eyes and tear it like the thick curtain of the tabernacle.

Folks, I am writing this stuff not for arguments sake. The time has begun where anti-semitism is on the rise, just look at the news. It has started with fringe groups and dictator lead nations, but will soon infect "civilised" nations.
Israel will fall victim to fake news and smear campaigns and will more and more fall out of favour with their former allies and they will have to go it alone. Anti-semitism will affect the church too, and it has already begun in some circles. This is nothing new, even Martin Luther failed in this respect.

And a word about the Palestinians. I feel and pray for those Palestians who are believers in Christ and suffer from both they fellow countrymen and Israeli bombardments.
I also pray for Hamas and Hezbollah and Iranians to find Christ.

Last not least
Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee!

Hi narrowpath,

I do not have time to respond to all you wrote now and will just say this:

The future will show who is right and who is wrong and if you are wrong, you would have preached a false hope and another gospel, and a whole nation would be numbered among the goats (as some interpret this parable) because at present only about 2% of the population of Israel are Christians and the huge majority in this 2% are Arab Christians.

Hi Jade,

your comment has nothing to do with my replies. Please read my replies where I answered you with scriptures.

Some quick replies:
Mike, I think it would be better if you leave it to God to be the judge. Thank you.

I said in another post that God still has a plan for what I now call "Biblical Israel" First Judgement ! - and ultimately a restored fellowship with God.

narrowpath: you did not understand my second part about curses and blessings.
Jeremiah 17:5 This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind, who makes the flesh his strength and turns his heart from the LORD.
"But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in Him.…"
This applies to all mankind. God does not have double standards.
To try and tell me I can receive a special blessing if I "bless a nation...", that is not in my Bible, it is a false Gospel!

If we had truly understood what God was trying to tell us through the example of the Israelites, then we would have take His warnings in 1 Cor. 10:11 more seriously.
But we are no better them them, we have also turned to idols and we have now untold "American Gospels" all over the world.
The outcome will be the same or worse.
The biggest crises has only just began on this planet !

God's plan can not and will not fail.
Most discussions are therefore only distracting us from the Gospel and true Biblical unity.

To sum it up: "choose this day what you want to believe..."
as for me - it is "In Christ alone..."

Markus

[: you did not understand my second part about curses and blessings.
Jeremiah 17:5 This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind, who makes the flesh his strength and turns his heart from the LORD.
"But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in Him.…"
This applies to all mankind. God does not have double standards.
To try and tell me I can receive a special blessing if I "bless a nation...", that is not in my Bible, it is a false Gospel!]

Hi Markus,

It is ok to disagree with me. If you want to refute me, take my words and my verses and show me otherwise. I am willing to listen to presentation of arguments relating to the topic.

I you won't, please do not try to use straws man arguments because it is easy to show the absurdity thereof and it gives the illusion of a successful refutation.

I never said what you try to accuse me of, please stay to my words, and do not falsify what I wrote.

Those who bless Israel will be blessed back, this does NOT talk of salvation, nor is it a gospel, and not even a false gospel, but is just a recognition by God who honors his promises.

National Israel still at large trusts in their arm of flesh and that will go well for a while until they fall out of favour with their allies and will one day be overwhelmed by the enemy. Then they will cry to out to their Messiah at his return. As long as the Iron Dome holds, and they have military superiority, they will see little need to cry out to Yeshua. Some day they will.

Unbelieving and unrepenting Jews go to the same hell as anyone else. Their ancesteral heritage does not secure them any thing with God, nor does their observation of the Torah.

[God's plan can not and will not fail.
Most discussions are therefore only distracting us from the Gospel and true Biblical unity.
To sum it up: "choose this day what you want to believe..."
as for me - it is "In Christ alone..."]

This is another straw man argument. I always maintained, it is in Christ alone, if you would read my posts carefully.

What I take from some of the replies here in this topic is that a number of you do not believe that there are future promises for the unregenerate nation and people of Israel yet to be fulfilled in Christ. Some of you have no understanding of the truths in Romans 11.

Some here believe that the gentile church has now stepped into all messianic and millenial promises and there and God is finished with Israel - that is what replacement theology teaches.

NP wrote: //a number of you do not believe that there are future promises for the unregenerate nation and people of Israel yet to be fulfilled in Christ.//

Do you believe these promises are different than those given to all peoples?

"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Is it your position that sometime in the future God will essentially "force” all Jewish people to repent and be saved, but that He won’t do this for everyone else?

Romans 2:11 says there is no favoritism with God.

But I THINK it is your belief that God will show some special favor to Jewish unbelievers in the future such that they will be saved, but that he will NOT bestow this special favor to everyone else, because obviously not everyone will be saved.

[Is it your position that sometime in the future God will essentially "force” all Jewish people to repent and be saved, but that He won’t do this for everyone else?]

There is yet a time of Jacobs trouble to come that will come over the land and nation of Israel in the future, some time during the Great Tribulation. You can read in Rev 7 about the 144000 saints of the tribes of Israel that will be sealed for this task.

The Jews went through the holocaust and will in the future undergo even greater troubles that will only leave a remnant. This remnant will be saved at the return of Christ. They will repent at the end, it will be as it was in Egypt, when Josephs brothers finally recognized their lost brother whom they mistreated.

This will hardly be a special favour, but a cry out of deep desparation.
Do not forget, that we Gentiles received a special favour, so that we, who did not seek after Christ, found him because the natural children rejected him:

Ro 10:20-21 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

These verses point towards this event:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

Zechariah 14:2
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Also Joel 2:1-21

Hi narrowpath,

It is in Jesus Himself, the Root of Jesse, that the Gentiles hope. NOT in the fleshly descendants who were rejected.

Last not least
Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee!

Who is the root?

More later.

Thanks NP-

We are not on the same page in our eschatological schemes so we are talking past each other. Not a problem.

Of course, the root is Christ, but the partially plucked out branches were Israel, and they will be plucked back.

Israel had rejected their Messiah, so they were plucked out, for a long season, but not forever. Though they rejected him, God still stays faithful to his covenant with Israel and in the end will be graft them back. The will do it through a severe Tribulation Read on from Romans 11:18 to the end of chapter. There you have it black on white.

Hi Todd,

this is an honest and respectful statement. There are escatological issues, that will be unfolding as we grow deeper in Christ and as history is played out before our eyes. I do not claim to know it all and I have found godly theologians on and preachers differing in eschatological views.

God Bless
Philip

Hi BranchinVINE,

....NOT in the fleshly descendants who were rejected.

Hebrews 11:1-2 (NASB)

1 I say then, GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE, has He? Far from it! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE WHOM HE FOREKNEW. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?"

....

I think that there is something to this chapter -- in full context -- that refutes the idea that Jews are rejected by God or that the Covenant that he made with Abraham is invalidated by "failure."

As pointed out in the past, the Covenant with Abraham never meant that Jews are "saved" on account of their ancestry. It just means that God "chose" Abraham and his seed on account of Abraham's FAITH (i.e., "Then he believed in the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Genesis 15:6).

The "failure" of the Jews was in accordance with the Law of Moses. Paul explained that the children of Abraham attempted to obtain righteousness by the Law (of works) when -- from the very beginning -- it was FAITH (demonstrated by works) that was after.

The word of God says:
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Israel’s Everlasting Covenant:

Lance Lambert

https://www.lancelambert.org/israels-everlasting-covenant-1/

I listened to a number of his messages, amazing!

Hi narrowpath,

SOME THOUGHTS ON THE "ROOT”

Rom. 15:12 ”“
Again Isaiah says, "THERE SHALL COME THE ROOT OF JESSE, AND HE WHO ARISES TO RULE OVER THE GENTILES, IN HIM WILL THE GENTILES HOPE.”

Obed was the father ("root”) of Jesse. He was a picture of the Root of Jesse in whom the Gentiles hope, which is Jesus Himself.

Who was Obed?

Obed was the offspring of Boaz and Ruth.

Boaz was the kinsman redeemer who married Ruth and redeemed her lost land.

Obed was the son who inherited the Ruth’s redeemed land, plus Boaz’s great riches.

Therefore, the Gentiles’ hope is in Christ, mankind’s great Kinsman Redeemer, and in whom they are joint heirs of the redeemed land and the unfathomable riches of God in Christ.

What was the land that was lost?

It was the whole earth.

When Adam and Eve were created, they were given dominion over the whole earth (Gen. 1:26-31).

When Adam fell, the dominion of this earth was lost to Satan (John 12:31, 1 John 5:19).

At the cross Jesus disarmed principalities and powers and triumphed over them (Col. 2:15).

Earth is redeemed.

The Lord Jesus now has all authority in heaven and on earth (Mat. 28:18) and is the "ruler of the kings of the earth (Rev. 1:5) and the saints reign with Him.

Dan. 7:27 ”“
Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.

The promise to Abraham was that he would be heir of the world (Rom. 4:13) and only those in Christ are Abraham’s descendant and heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:29).

Canaan was not the long-range and final goal.

There is no permanent hope in anything or any place on this cursed earth.

Peter said that this earth and its works will be burned up when Christ returns (2 Pet. 3:10) and "according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells (2 Pet. 3:13).

Seems like we are either with Christ in the air when He returns (1 Thess. 4:17) or be burned with the earth (2 Pet. 3:10). There will no longer be any land on this old earth to return to. This earth will be gone. The Church, the New Jerusalem, will descend on the new earth (Rev. 21).

Just some thoughts.

---------

Born again Christians are ROOTED IN CHRIST.

Col. 2:7 ”“
Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, HAVING BEEN FIRMLY ROOTED AND NOW BEING BUILT UP IN HIM AND ESTABLISHED IN YOUR FAITH, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

Every tree, Jewish and Gentile, that is not rooted IN CHRIST is rooted in fallen Adam and are cut off at the root (John 3:10). The Jewish nation disobeyed Moses’ last command to obey the gospel Paul preached (Deut. 30:11-14, Rom. 10:5-13) and rejected Christ.

---------

THE NEW COVENANT

The New Covenant was made with THIS Israel:

Rom. 9:6-8 ”“
For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Gal. 4:28 ”“
And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

Gal. 3:26-29 ”“
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Peter said:

1 Pet. 1:9-12 ”“
obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the SPIRIT OF CHRIST WITHIN THEM was indicating as He PREDICTED THE SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST AND THE GLORIES TO FOLLOW. IT WAS REVEALED TO THEM THAT THEY WERE NOT SERVING THEMSELVES, BUT YOU, IN THESE THINGS WHICH NOW HAVE BEEN ANNOUNCED TO YOU THROUGH THOSE WHO PREACHED THE GOSPEL TO YOU BY THE HOLY SPIRIT SENT FROM HEAVEN-- things into which angels long to look.

Note my emphasis in caps.

The GLORIES THAT FOLLOWED THE SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST include these New Covenant blessings that are for the Church:

2 Cor. 5:21 ”“
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Heb. 10:10 ”“
By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb. 10:14 ”“
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Heb. 10:17 --
"AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”

1 Cor. 3:16 ”“
Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

2 Cor. 6:16 ”“
For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

2 Cor. 3:2-3 ”“
You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Rom. 8:1-2 ”“
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Note: "IT WAS REVEALED TO THEM THAT THEY WERE NOT SERVING THEMSELVES, BUT YOU, IN THESE THINGS WHICH NOW HAVE BEEN ANNOUNCED TO YOU THROUGH THOSE WHO PREACHED THE GOSPEL TO YOU BY THE HOLY SPIRIT SENT FROM HEAVEN”.

They were serving us!

Blessings

Hi Christopher,

Reply soon, maybe tomorrow.

Hi Jade,

all that you are saying I also believe, not need to affirm or captitalize or trying to convince me off.

You are budging the issue of Romans 11. Read it thouroughly, and then come back to me.

Mike made a very helpful contribution to the topic by linking to Lance Lambert - Israel and Nations 101 - Part 2 of 6
https://youtu.be/cHxcBV7AX3A

You do not seem to see the future plan God has for the Jews. I think it is not only an eschatological issue, but it is about knowing God's character and the understanding of our redmemption.

Do you think, God is finished with Israel and the Jews?
Has God given Israel back his land against all odds for no reason?
Why is there such conflict around this tiny place Jerusalem?
Are all Old Testament promises about the holy land just to be spiritualized or snatched away by the church?

I will deal with Rom. 11 when I reply to Christopher.

Not trying to convince you at all. You will go away clinging tenaciously to what you believe.

This discussion will end in a deadlock like it always does.

Just for a good debate and to emphasize my point.

The future will show who is right and who is wrong.

Hi again BranchinVINE,

I will deal with Rom. 11 when I reply to Christopher.

Thanks.

Not trying to convince you at all. You will go away clinging tenaciously to what you believe.

This discussion will end in a deadlock like it always does.

Just for a good debate and to emphasize my point.

The future will show who is right and who is wrong.

I'm not sure that accusing someone of "clinging tenaciously" is an unpretentious attitude in any discussion. Obviously, people who believe anything do so after being convinced. As such, if they are absolutely convinced, then they SHOULD be quite resolute until shown otherwise.

In my case, I am not "absolutely convinced." Simply put: I have not come to the conclusion from Scriptures about what many people claim about Israel and some sort of end to the Covenant with Abraham (regarding Abraham's physical descendants and the "promised land"). I cannot accept what I do not ascertain from Scriptures.

That isn't to say that I do not understand what you're basing your views upon. Is it correct to say that you understand how some of us have a different view even by using Scripture alone?

Either way, I'm not sure that we should be motivated by "convincing" anyone.

A debate or discussion is fine (because "iron sharpens iron"). Thus, it's fine to present a set of beliefs and open those beliefs up to scrutiny. It's almost like what "peer review" does in a scientific or academic sense.

However, I just wonder if we can accept some things as being "non-essential" to salvation. Sometimes, believes just won't agree on such issues.

Once, I was in the middle of a discussion with individuals fiercely debating Calvinism. Both sides of the debate were arguing (from Scripture) over it. I participated in the debate by adding my thoughts. After this became a central focus "thing" in Bible studies in that group, I eventually remained silent.

Then, one of the pro-Calvinism individuals asked me about my view on how important this topic really should be. He asked, "How important is this to you?"

My response: "I don't really care about it."

Both sides of the debate looked like they were in shock. So, I clarified, "A child doesn't have to know how he was conceived or how/why the father loves him. All he cares about is that he belongs to that father. I want to belong to the Lord no matter if Calvinism is true of false."

I think that it is a grand thing to study these issues. However, in the end, I don't know that being motivated to "convince" the "other side" is the wisest route. The important thing to know is that other believers can perceive things differently (from Scripture) and still be a part of the family of God.

Don't get me wrong: I obviously think that this is important. However, there is a world of difference between "important" and "essential."

Besides, there are things that we can certainly agree upon. We can agree that ALL PEOPLE (Jews and Gentiles) need to come to believe in Christ Jesus.

I'm not saying that we should not continue in this debate (far from it). Rather, I'm saying that we should salt our words with a bit more grace with one another. After all, we are speaking to others who truly love the Lord.

*EDIT - Please don't take this as a personal rebuke. I confess that I am guilty of this too -- probably even more than most. Thank you for sharing.

np: why are you doing what you are doing ?
What special blessings are you expecting now in return from God, for you, your congregation, your country ?

I might add some more general thoughts and comments later on about this topic.

I do not look for any benefit, other that God will be glorified and that they will come to salvation, just as Paul did. It is right and fitting to share God's attitude to his elect people.

Romans 10:1
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

If I take this verse literally, I wonder how many Jewish branches (persons) were uprooted through unbelief for my salvations sake so that that I could be grafted into the holy root. It shows me my whole unworthiness of God's grace. I fervently whish and pray, they will get it, too!

Hi NP-

You seem to be saying that a Jewish person was literally snapped off the "tree” to make room for you, as if it is a one to one exchange; I.e. God could not save you until He made room on the "tree.”

Hi, [edit] Todd, [edit]
That would be a bit extreme. I do not think it is a like for like process, eg. one Jew gets lost for every believing Gentile. Rather something like a smaller number of "x" Jews were plucked out for a much bigger number "y" of Gentiles to be grafted in. They were plucked out not arbitrarily, but because of their unbelief.

Hi ccchhhrrriiisss,

I'm not sure that accusing someone of "clinging tenaciously" is an unpretentious attitude in any discussion.

I was not making any accusation, just making a comment.
There is nothing wrong in clinging tenaciously to our beliefs.

Is it correct to say that you understand how some of us have a different view even by using Scripture alone?

Everyone is free to have their own views.

Either way, I'm not sure that we should be motivated by "convincing" anyone.

Lest you also accuse me of trying to convince you, I am leaving this discussion.

Blessings

Hi BranchinVINE,

I was not making any accusation, just making a comment.
There is nothing wrong in clinging tenaciously to our beliefs.
....
Everyone is free to have their own views.
....
Lest you also accuse me of trying to convince you, I am leaving this discussion.

I know that there is a vast chasm between "seem" and what is intended or actually felt in the heart. So, this is what I tried to point that out subsequently in my previous response.

My concern is that a debate on this will become like a discourse between Job and his friends. While we are certainly "free" to have particular views, we (as believers) are also certainly "bound" as a "slave to Christ" to stake our dwelling on truth.

Yes, the future will reveal the truth on such matters. However, I feel (in this discussion) that we sometimes discuss "past" what we might think or believe. This is when "convincing" becomes the focus rather than a mere discussion of the specific points of disagreement.

Obviously, I don't think that any of us are motivated by wanting to believe something that is not true for reasons of selfishness. If I feel that God's covenant with Abraham still applies to the physical seed of Abraham AND the physical "promised land" (despite simultaneous spiritual application), it doesn't mean that it is because I actually "want" or "hope" it to be true. It is because it is how I see the Scriptures pertaining to this subject.

As I said before, I don't see the Scriptures as saying that Jews are "saved" on account of being the physical seed of Abraham. They must still work out their salvation with fear and trembling -- by believing in Jesus Christ.

The Law of Moses was established (as a subsequent covenant after Abraham) so the seed of Abraham could attempt to obtain righteousness by adherence. Believers do not need the Law of Moses -- because we have been set free from it.

Yet, I feel that the Genesis 15 covenant between God and Abraham (in regard to his descendants and land promised to them) still stands. This doesn't mean that I see a secular government as being in place of that covenant -- despite the fact that I see the people under that government (tribal) as a part of it.

If anything, the discussion actually has helped me to prayerfully consider these things. The passages shared by all in this discussion have caused me to continue perceiving this covenant as binding -- albeit where believers of all backgrounds are (through faith in Christ Jesus) grafted into this Olive tree.

Please don't feel that my words were meant to cause you to leave this discussion. I enjoy the discourse. I just felt that there is a place where we might meander past sharing or discussing the matter to the point where convincing becomes the "thing" in a way that is less than fruitful. Like I said, I am probably more guilty of this than all -- so this is a personal (albeit gentle) rebuke to myself.

I will start a new thread (when free) on the Abrahamic Covenant, Old Covenant and New Covenant and incorporate Rom. 11 into it.