Just being forgiven was totally insufficient.

Just having my sins taken away and having my trespasses removed from me was totally insufficient. Now do get me wrong, I was extremely glad that I was forgiven but that knowledge did not keep me from my sinful behavior. Every day I would confess these sins over and over again but that did stop me from repeating the same sins again.

I told God that I was very glad that He had forgiven me but that was just was not enough for me to live the Christian life. I had no idea of what was really wrong with me so I spent much time and effort trying to be good, better and to improve my behavior. I was looking at my outward sins and attempted to cut them off but I always failed. You name it I tried it but it was like hitting a brick wall over and over again so I completely gave up but that also did not help my situation at all.

I could fully identify what Paul went thought in Romans chapter seven verses 14-24 but I did not see any solution there. This went on for many years and some of my outward sins would have put in jail for a long time if I had been caught doing them. After completely exhausting myself of all the avenues I took to get free from these sins, I got to the point were I finally realized that it was IMPOSIBLE for me to deliver myself from this mess. I could now truly say, "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

I just kept praying that God would show me the actual remedy to me so I could really enjoy Him. Then I saw the answer in to this issue in Rom. 8:2-3 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

Then I realized that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus had made me free from the law of sin and death. The law and my efforts could not cleanse me, make me holy, make me perfect, make me righteous, justify me or give me life - impossible. I saw that Christ had completely delivered me and set me free from this old law by giving me a new law - a new operating system which is HIS VERY LIFE AND DIVINE NATURE.

Now under the NEW OPERATING SYSTEM, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ sets me totally free from this obligation and all obligations to that old law. Now God who is LOVE dwells in my physical body, supplying me CONTINUOUSLY with that Love that the law demanded but could never provide. Now I am FREE to love without effort. Not only am I SUPPLIED with Love, I am that LOVE. Now then I am not under ANY further obligation at all, for His LOVE inside of me fulfills all the requirements of the law. I have been set free by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, and I am FREE INDEED!!!

A principle - law is just the way something works; it cannot do anything different. We were under the law of sin and death which was our source that caused all of our outward deeds and actions. WE could not help it. This was the way we were without any possibly to get free from this system.

While we yet living under that LIE, Christ places us under the law (the operating system) of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus making us free from the law (the operating system) of sin and death. Under this law THE LIFE IN CHRIST is our new source that causes all of our outward deeds and actions. We are now holy, cleansed, made holy, made perfect, made righteous and He has given us HIS LIFE. Now Christ's LIFE CAUSES YOUR OBEDIENCE!!! It is God who said "I will cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments." We cannot help it. It is just the way it works. It impossible for it act differently.

What Christ did was to take the whole sin system upon Himself, not just that He bore our sins. Christ was "made sin." Now this sin is the very root and cause of all outer sin. Sin is the whole system of self-centeredness; sins are just products and the judgment of Adam's sin. Sin - the whole system, the whole sin system, the whole sin dimension - He was made that! This was the final place, Jesus Christ, as God became the whole sin system, which involved us and everything else that's gone wrong.

As He became the sin system, we became the righteousness system. Now we don't get righteousness; we are the righteousness system. We are god-forms of God in His righteousness. It says He made Him to be sin, who knew no sin, that we may be made the righteousness - not have the righteousness-not get justification. Be made the righteousness.

We are now the right people! We are now as He became the wrong person in all its implications, so we're now the right people with all its implications! So we boldly say we're the right people. We're God's righteousness; we're God's rightness now. Not made right-are right! He totally removed us from the Whole of the ROOT of all sin - The cause of outer sins - a self for self and the idea of an independent self.

Now we are under the WHOLE ROOT of righteousness - the cause of our obedience, and we are now in complete union in God. The law in the Spirit of Life in Jesus Christ is "I have got a new principle a new law - the Spirit of Life."

I used live to under the law, but God has removed - transferred me to a NEW kingdom and a NEW law. I am NO longer under the sin principle of self - which brings death. I am now under the law of Spirit of LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS!! God has delivered us from one law by transferring me to another law.

The law of sin and death used to rule me, but now I am ruled by another law that operates within me - the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, and that law has completely delivered me from the law of sin and death. You see, it is a law of life in Christ Jesus - the resurrection life that is in Him has met death in all its forms and triumphed over it.

The Lord Jesus dwells in my heart by faith, and He is my keeper. When I was under the law, Sin was my ruler and I could not help not sinning, but now I am ruled by a different law of Life and Love; I cannot help being holy, righteous, and perfect. It is what it is.

Now I am a free from a mere outer law that only produces death telling me shoulds and should nots that could never cleanse me from sin, give me life, or make me holy, perfect, or righteous. Now I have an inner LIFE - God's own divine love, Life, and nature causing me to be all that the law could never do.

A law or principle only means how a thing works and operates. It has no choice to do or be anything different. It is a rule of action. The results are unchangeable and fixed. We are now under the perfect law of freedom from that old system of law. This New law sets us free from sin and death; that is how it works and operates and it also it has no choice to do or be anything different. The results are unchangeable and fixed.

What is the nature of this law of life? Such a nature will operate spontaneously along a certain line without the need of it being forcibly controlled and without the need of any conscious effort. God has given us His life within us and this life is a law by itself.

He has not placed in us a mere outward form or letter; He instead puts in us a living law of life which operates spontaneously. Since what God has put in us is HIS Life, it naturally is a law, which operates spontaneously. This law will automatically "law" out life. And this life will spontaneously "law" out the contents of the life within us - even "law" out the riches of God. It will naturally flow because that is it very essence and nature.

Now see this, under the old we were slaves of sin under the domain - kingdom and were under the law of sin and death. We were made sinners because of Adam's disobedience. This means we did not just sin occasionally but that is all we did. We could do nothing else but sin because we were FREE FROM righteousness. Righteousness was now impossible. This sin condition was just normal and we could not help it. It is very important to see that this sin condition was not me; it is like a virus, a person who is expressing sin by me. In other words sin is the principle of self-centeredness expressed through me.

Under the new we are NOW slaves of righteousness under the domain - kingdom of the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ and are free from sin - the principle of self-centeredness expressed through me. We were made righteous by the obedience by the last Adam, Jesus Christ. This means we just are not just righteous occasionally but that is all we can be all the time. We can not be something else because free from the domain of sin. It is very important to see that this righteous condition is not me; it is like a virus, a person who is expressing righteousness by me and through me. In other words, righteousness is the principle of pure LOVE expressed through me.

Amen God revealed that principle to me in 2011 through an exhortation combined with a prophecy, and I received it by faith about 9 years later, when I received it came with an outpouring of his spirit which sanctified me or set me free from the law of sin and death, he brought me to the end of my self through trial, whereby I could longer trust or have any confidence in the flesh he shook everything that I trusted in which was painful to the flesh but it weakened it, whereby I could transfer my confidence towards him. I had no other options, and then the truth literally set me free it came by knowing the truth through revelation, what was once a biblical principle that I knew of in my mind became real, became my life, by faith we are saved and by faith we are sanctified, not by might or by power but by my spirit says the Lord, the words that Paul spoke or wrote are spirit, just as Jesus confessed, theses words I speak are spirit and they are life ..........This is a snipit of that old exhortation from 2011 ....Come reckon your selfs dead unto sin

come to a quiet place ,and look,,see the lord

He is hanging on the cross for us

see the blood

the pain

watch the sacrifice of the holy lamb

see how he offers himself to God for us

listen, hear the earthquake

and the cry of the lamb
listen to the cords of sin break, while he screams.

Behold,behold,what he speaks
my God my God my why did you have to forsake me.

It is finished

he has broken the head of the snake

the propitiation,the offering is complete

the son has set you free

and you are free indeed

He has broken the power of sin over his people

truly this was the son of god

who was bruised for our iniquity
the chastisement for our peace was upon him.
He bore our sins, listen to his pain
and by these strips we ARE heald

The cords of sin are gone

the leash of iniquity has been released

He has set you free from the leash of slavery

sin has no dominion over us

he condemned sin in the flesh

you are FREE ,He set you FREE.

Reckon your selfs dead unto sin

sins dominion was nailed to the cross

He who knew no sin became sin
cursed is he who hung on the tree

The curse is left you ,, now you leave the curse on that tree

leave your old master,on that cross.

Resist the devil , and he will flee from you

take the grain of mustard seed on thy lips

let it sprout and grow and fruit
confess this truth to one another

He set you free
indeed you are free

The cross has set you free
what was nailed to the alter
became your freedom.

Rejoice now in your liberty
where sin abounded
grace abounded more

He set you free.

Step out from the old traps
don't let the traps entangle you, you are Already free
you are a new creature now
walk by faith.

AMEN brothagary - PRAISE THE LORD!!!

I am Standing firm therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made me free, and I am not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.”

Amen may god led all his children into the truth, The victory that the cross Acomplished, may he receive the full reward of his suffering. I believe there is coming a revival of holiness, God is opening and will continue to open more eyes to the Pauline revelations. Halleluja ! The gospel will be preached to every creature before he comes back.

Salvation is a gift from God.

Eph 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

To experience the LIFE of Christ we MUST BELIVE AND RECIEVE HIM!!!

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"

The Greek word that is translated as "receive” in this verse is lambano. It is a very common word that simply means "take,” "grasp,” "seize,” "receive” as well as ‘to take to oneself” something or someone. The opposite of receiving something is to reject it ”“ not take it. It was sometimes used of "taking a wife.” This implies that "receiving” Jesus means that a person willingly takes Christ to himself or herself. It results in a person giving himself or herself to Christ.

So you are saying that a person needs to be born again before they can receive Christ? So do you believe that all are born again? Could you state clearly what you believe and why you believe it?

Brightfame is obviously in the total depravity/total inability camp. That, or I am totally not understanding what he is saying.

Jesus says you must be born again and that the way to this is belief. Paul said that anyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Then why does Jesus and Paul and the other apostles tell men to do something about it??? It’s throughout the NT. And OT for that matter.

The flesh doesn't choose god, nor produce faith that pleases God unto salvation, the natural man is an enemy of god according to paul, the holy spirit draws on the spirit of man and illuminates the spirit and gives revelation to the spirit of man, and it is the inner spirit of man who through the workings of the spirit of God, believes the gospel. Saving faith is a result of the holy spirit intermingling with the inerman , it has nothing to do with the flesh or the old man . The flesh and the old man has only the ability to understand its guilt and be convicted of sin but hasn't the ability to produce anything good or Godly. The bible says god deals to each man the measure of faith. Saving faith is an attribute of the divine nature of Christ.
.

You can’t explain away every scripture that commands men to repent and believe. The gospel is simple and your twisting it into something complex is an affront to the Lord.

The bible explains it clearly tod 13And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Jesus says ..63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

If you believe the flesh can repent and believe, then keep on believing that, paul says na and Jesus says na

//To do something about it ? You lost me !//

Only because you are being purposefully obtuse.

Just for the record,
I'm not saying a person gets born-again and then believes after that, all I'm saying is the flesh doesn't believe and the flesh doesn't get born again, the flesh is totally dead and deprived because of sin and can't produce anything good, as Paul said; in me that is in my flesh nothing good dwells.

Heh Todd,

Perhaps you could rephrase the objection. God does actually command many things all the time that we are unable to do on our own all the time. The question is whether He provides the help "all the time" for us or for unbelievers to do those commands.

Clearly, we know that He doesn't provide that help all the time. For example, if we are walking in the flesh and regard sin in our hearts, He is less inclined to help for He gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. Our sin causes God not to help us.

The question of the centuries is does God provide the help all the time every time to all people when He commands them to obey the Gospel ?

The purpose for the law and commands was to show man that he can't obey God all the time on his own.

The Pelagian heresy was that man can do what God commands on his own all the time without God's help. Unless one subscribes to that, we must all concede to the proposition that God commands man to do things all the time that he cannot do apart from God's intervention all time. The only question is does He provide that help all the time.

Augustine ( not an obtuse guy ) prayed "God, give what thou command and command what thy will".

Hear
Believe
Repent
Confess
Be baptized

So you all are submitting that a person must be born again for any of this to happen??

I don’t want to get into a huge Calvinism debate **again**.

If y’all want to believe in a God that commands all men everywhere to repent but actually only helps (allows?) some (likely very few) to actually obey the command, have at it! I won’t try to stop you. The whole idea is absurd to me on its face.

It’s like a parent who commands their children to pick up sticks in the yard, but ties their hands behind their backs before they start and then punishes them for not doing the chore.

2 timothy 2 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God MAY PERHAPS grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth......Under these circumstances, god literally grants so repentance is not coming from the natural man abilities or the sinner. we cant produce it in our selvs unless God grants us the ability , perhaps he will or perhaps he won't, there is no guaranty in these scripture, under those circumstances, Jesus also commands men to have faith and believe, yet the scriptures say .....New King James Version
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

No one should think that he produces faith we ought to not think pride full high minded thoughts , because God even deals out faith to each of us its a gift ,

We don't have the power in the flesh to obey Jesus it needs to be put to death and the new man who is created according to God in true righteousness and holiness by gods power fulfills the righteous requirements of the law by grace, paul said I labored more than them all yet not I , it was the grace of god ,, We must be grafted into the vine and remain, for Jesus said 5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. But now I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me , paul said the flesh profits nothing, the flesh, and the old natural man can not please God, paul said to will or to want to do good is present but how to perform the will of God is not present in him that's why Christ died and if one died for all then all died , the body the flesh is dead because of sin Paul said

Fletcher, I'm not saying that all I was saying was the natural man and the flesh, this flesh that Jesus spoke of that lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh, this flesh is what cant hear believe repent or please God. But the inerman the spirit of man is enabled by the drawing power of grace to hear and respond. Jesus said no man can come to me unless my Father draws him, Jesus through his divine spirit touches us with his love before we are born again and causes us to desire god, because of his sweetness and revelation that God gives us in our spirit. Our response is a genuine experience to an impartation of grace into our spirit a true taste of God.

http://middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/regenera.htm

-Daniel

Good one Daniel.

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

How do you reconcile this or the others that bear this testimony ?

So you are saying humans can be born again before the cross/resurrection of Christ?

This is an interesting theory (never heard that before) ...

we have ;

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

and-

For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

How do you square these definitive statements of Jesus with your position?

(Thank you for being patient with me as I seek to understand what it is that you all are saying)

I thoroughly enjoyed the beginning post of this discussion! Those who have passed from chapter 7 of Romans to chapter 8 can know from experience what happens in this process. It is always refreshing to read another testimony of that transition. Since the discussion took a turn toward the question of whether faith or regeneration comes first there have been several important observations on the subject.

Brothagary made a very illuminating point for the discussion with this post:

"The flesh doesn't choose God, nor produce faith that pleases God unto salvation, the natural man is an enemy of God according to Paul, the Holy Spirit draws on the spirit of man and illuminates the spirit and gives revelation to the spirit of man, and it is the inner spirit of man who through the workings of the spirit of God, believes the gospel. Saving faith is a result of the holy spirit intermingling with the inner man , it has nothing to do with the flesh or the old man . The flesh and the old man has only the ability to understand its guilt and be convicted of sin but hasn't the ability to produce anything good or Godly. The bible says God deals to each man the measure of faith. Saving faith is an attribute of the divine nature of Christ."

The link that Daniel shared is an EXCELLENT and very thorough discussion of the subject. PLEASE READ: http://middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/regenera.htm

I'd like to interject another angle to the subject.

What is the purpose for Paul's exhortation to Timothy?

1Ti 2:1  I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 
1Ti 2:2  For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 
1Ti 2:3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 
1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 

God allows human action and choices to be involved in the creation of human beings. For any human to be created, a man and woman must come together or at least in a test tube, the cells from the two must be united.

WHY would Paul "exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men" if God "Who will have all men to be saved" is the Only One involved in the regeneration process? Have you ever noticed that the most rebellious teenagers who have faithful praying parents have a much higher probability of being regenerated (sometimes years later) than the rest of the population? The night before Jonathan Edwards preached "Sinners in the hands of an angry God", a small group of people spent all night in desperate prayer for the salvation of souls in that event. It is my understanding that every time there has been a revival movement and many people have been regenerated, there has been some major travailing in Zion. The church, the bride of Christ has always been involved, not only in earnest prayer but in proclaiming so that faith can come by hearing. Yes, there are stories of Muslims who have seen Jesus in dreams and come to know him with little or no contact from Christians, but I find it hard to believe that someone wasn't praying at least for the general population of the area where they had the encounter. I don't fully understand it but somehow the regenerated children of God who form the Bride of Christ on earth are definitely involved in the salvation process.

Speaking of which, God VERY WELL COULD HAVE just produced baby Jesus in Bethlehem who could have grown up without the help of Mary and Joseph. God chose to use the virgin Mary in the process of bringing His Son into human flesh. It doesn't take away from the sovereignty of God for Him to choose to use human beings who choose to let Him have His way with them: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word."

I don't understand how a microscopic cell from a woman and a microscopic cell from a man can come together and grow into a fully formed baby within a womb. Neither do I understand how within a human being, faith and regeneration can come together and grow into NEW CREATION child of God within the body of believers called the Bride of Christ on earth! Both processes have happened to me but I can't explain how they work! I just THANK GOD for the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 

" the discussion took a turn toward the question of whether faith or regeneration comes first ”

Doesn’t Romans clear this up...?
" God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith "

It just seems so strange to me that we (the body of Christ) can’t seem to agree on the "non-moving parts” (fundamentals) after 2000 years and countless hours of study, research, prayer and ministry and we still can’t seem to find common ground 😳

While it’s understandable that the two main camps will have variations in their applications, it just doesn’t make sense that we can’t seem to get to a place of unity on the basic processes,..

(For me) this is like Ford and GM debating over the mechanics of a combustion engine, being unable to agree on the purpose and function of the block, rods, pistons, lifters, rings, intake, exhaust, fuel air mixture, etc...
Yes all the manufacturers of combustion engines will have variants, but they aren’t debating "how” a combustion engine works or when the gas is ignited, much less the purpose of the oil, coolant, etc...

But we (honestly) seem incapable of agreeing on the basic functionality of the salvific work of God in a persons heart, much less the purpose of said salvation...

Call me crazy but this seems out of sorts 🤷🏽”â™‚️

It's more or less like the rapture there are at least three views and no one verse clears it up, i had to laugh at this in a good way , jfw...... Doesn’t Romans clear this up...?
" God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith " for me that clears it up that faith is not something that man produces, God needs to deal it or implant it as a type of gift in the spirit of man like a seed and in doing this, a conception takes place because of the seed of faith which god waters with the water of revelation or illumination then a gestation period takes over where that seed grows, the inner baby grows till he is born a new spirit man created according to God in true righteousness and holiness. A babe in Christ is born, now that seed of faith has become living saving faith and the time to recognize and put to death the fleshly inclination of the old man, who was positionally already dead with Christ has begun and the devices we use to do this is that seed of faith which is the gift of gods divine nature , which has sprouted and is turning into a great tree, and the sword of the spirit which is the word of God. sword in one hand . shield in the other . we will conqer.

Ha!
Yes I very much appreciate and can relate to your analogy of the seed of faith as it is something that the Lord Himself provides to everyone, which (for me) clearly comes before reformation much less regeneration.

Tho while faith is a gift, we are told (commanded) to mix (work) it with grace (also a gift) Which I believe was what brother Todd was saying.... So we have all the resources provided by God and our response, what we do with it is up to us, hence every man will be judged according to the deeds (works) he did in his flesh.
This seems so simple, so straight forward to me much like reaping and sowing... why is there so much confusion??

(We) Work out what (God) has been worked into us... this isn’t rocket science, these are elementary principles... 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Perhaps there exists a tendency to conflate certain terms as tho they are ambiguous and interchangeable rather than see that they simply work in concert while remaining separate (distinct) much like in an orchestra each instrument contributes under the direction of the conductor (spirit) to produce a symphony-
Yet we seem (for the most part) to be playing our own tunes but "in Jesus’ name” (albeit with "good intentions”) much like how Martha literally commanded Jesus to obey her, not only that... she also directs Him to leverage His authority to make others obey her also but "in Jesus’ name” that is analogous to what happens in allot of discussions where even if we get our "Mary” to come help us, it doesn’t get us one iota closer to God and in fact literally moves us further away from His purpose because it causes unwarranted divisions where there were none. Tho this (for me) is true, nevertheless may God be praised for His mercy, patience, gentleness and long suffering, just like how Jesus responded saying, "Martha Martha" leveraging His own personal relationship to make an appeal so too does He towards us lest we harden our hearts and fail the grace of God, coming short of what He intended by neglecting that great salvation He so mercifully offers to us all.

He doesn’t gift us simply for us to have but so that, like Him, we might share them and in this way we will be one just as He and the Father are one.
1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
((((2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of [one accord, of one mind.]
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others))))
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I think the calvinist vomit at the idea that faith is not a gift because the pelagian camp more or less teaches that we are saved by Grace through Faith which is something man produces without the help of God which most of us wouldn't believe anyway but there truly is a camp that believes that in the flesh the sinful nature of man has the ability to trust and believe unto salvation, and so the fine Calvinist have developed a theology which completely rejects that, but is a knee-jerk reaction so that man needs to be Sovereignly born again and then salvation producers saving Faith as a part of receiving the divine nature so man can't get any credit for Salvation and that all the glory goes to God. Their desire is to only give all the glory to God so it's not a bad thing it's just confusing theology and many great men believe to like Charles Spurgeon George Whitfield god used these man greatly Jonathan Edwards as well. I More or less believed it as well but I just could not quite get my head around it didn't quite make sense so I had to sit down and think about it pray about it and think about it and pray about it and think about it and think about my own conversion. But if I had to pick one ID pick the Calvinist give all the glory to God rather than Pelagius, the idea which gives some glory to man for him producing Faith in The flesh. But lucky we don't have to pick one. I sit somewhere in between semi-Pelagianism and Calvinism and my theology gives all the glory to God, man still needs God to draw him because no man can come to Jesus Christ unless the Father draws him. Pelagian teachers that man can come to God without the need of God to draw him at any time he wants and then he can produce Faith whenever he wants and I think that's Poppycock for lack of a better word. The important thing is when we talk about this sort of thing we don't fight we do it in love and we just give glory to God for his amazing gifts that we may never fully understand on this side of heaven and like you said work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and cultivate and stir up the gifts that God has given us.

Yes dear brother and yet it may be the concepts you mentioned are more Greek in origin than Hebrew... Something worth looking into 🙏🏻

amen brother yes both seem to be