It is important to take the whole Bible in context and interpret scripture with scripture. If there is no warning to the believer about securing his/her salvation, then it is a question not necessary to even be answered. I do believe the Bible does teaches a secure salvation, but not eternal security for a person's salvation. What I mean by this is that a person must continue to trust in the salvation provided by Jesus Christ. It is not unconditional, just as 1 John 1:9 is conditional. Sin is only forgiven if it is confessed-"IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." IF is the key word of this verse-IF is a condition, not unconditional. Salvation only comes through Christ and Him alone, all other efforts are in vain and will result in being lost (Romans 8 and Galatians 4-5). Calvin taught that Jesus only died for the elect (limited atonement)which totally goes against the Word of God. Salvation is made available to anyone who would receive the gift purchased by Christ. Yes, God will in His foreknowledge know who will accept or reject His offer, but I do not believe God controls the choice. God does not reveal Himself as a Father who waves a gift or present in front of all humanity and tease them with salvation, only to pull it back and say, "Sorry you were not chosen, you were not one of my elect, go to hell!" Whosoever(John 3:16) means just that, anyone can come to Christ. Anyone can receive the gift of salvation. Just as you can receive a gift, you can also reject it. To say that someone never received a gift is not logical. I might receive a gift in the mail and open it up. You can not tell me I did not receive the gift. At the same time, I can wrap up that gift and send it back, not accepting it. God will not force us to serve Him, He does not want robots! He longs for our fellowship with Him and that was purchased and restored by Jesus Christ. Many believers have rejected Jesus after they opened the gift which was free to any who wanted it. If you want to accept eternal security, then you must accept all four other points of Calvinism to make it work. Too many people who accept one or two points of Calvin's teachings do not understand they all are connected together-you can not seperate them. You must take them all or reject them all. It is much like constructing a tall building. You can't build all the stores of the building except the 3rd or 4th stores, the building will collapse. Calvin and others that followed him in his teaching taught five points. 1) Total Depravity of Man-man can not come to God, God must go to him. 2) Unmerited Favor-Grace was extended to you without any choice-you can not reject this grace. 3) Limited Atonement of Jesus Christ-Jesus only died for the "elect" and them only, all other people not chosen are predestined to be damned to hell without any choice. 4) Irresistable Grace-once God chose you to be "elect" you are elect no matter what-meaning you had no chose in the matter-God predestined you to be saved no matter who or what you did. 5) Perseverance of the Saints (Eternal Security)-you are chosen or "elect" you have no say or can not be unelected. God already chose you to be saved. (This is why if you truly believed this, we need to stop preaching the Gospel to everyone and lie to multiple millions upon millions that Jesus died for them and their sins. If they are truly elect, God will make a way for them to be saved! This is so unbiblical it makes my heart just break thinking about it!). God died for all and some will receive this and others will reject. Others will accept and continue to serve God and enter into the rich reward promised to them. I hope this is clear as I have tried to explain in just a few lines the truth I believe the Bible holds. Remember, only one interpretation is correct! One is right and the other is wrong. I am siding with the whole Bible and not picking out just a scripture here and there to support a false doctrine like Calvin's.
Salvation Can Be Rejected and Lost
If Calvin was right that only the elect are predestinated to salvation then the damned would be predestinated to hell. This seems to me to make God the author of sin instead of Satan.How can God through his word tell you and me to seek him or to resist the devil or to repent unless it is our free will and choice to do these things. With this said, it is God's grace that not only saves you or me but gives you or me the ability to resist sin. It is a cop-out to have an excuse to continue in sin. If you or I continue in sin it is our choice and not by being predestinated to sin that brought this into our life. Repentance is a choice.In Christ,GaryE
Just want to say.... What came to be known as 'Calvinism' is probably not what he had in mind when he wrote his first treatise on what is necessary to be believed for salvation. You have to remember a whole lot more about what was going on politically and religiously at the time, and give the guy credit for finding a Biblical way for groups of believers to accept the authority of scripture, which could also be translated into peace with a sympathetic political system.This was in stark contrast to the effect of the Pope's claim of authority from God to depose princes, (kings) - to declare them not God's choice of ruler - thus suddenly creating turmoil for any Catholics who were now risking, they thought, their eternal salvation if they acquiesced to a government no longer under Rome, because by default, they were thus rejecting Papal authority.
Hm. I'd have to disagree on many points. But first I need to say that we must not and cannot put a limit to anything coming from Abba. He has no limit of salvation. He has no limit to grace. No limit on love. His mercy cannot ever run dry or low. There is no gauge that can measure the perplexity of His love for His most wonderful creation. I know that He weeps when we put limits on Him. We have that power to put a limit to the limitless in our mindsets. And as someone previously stated, to say that God sends people to Hell is making Him the author of death & not life. We condemn ourselves, we cannot save ourselves. We are ragamuffins, & when we realize that we can do NOTHING to earn, or support our salvation, we can live freely. No, this is not a license to sin, it is a license to live as a true son/daughter of the Living Gracious God.What boggles me mind is that we know that NOTHING can separate us from the Love of Christ. NOTHING. Nor angels nor demons, nor depths nor heights, no hardships, no lottery tickets, no cars, no fame, nothing can seperate us. So can we truly lose salvation?I believe one can reject it, never having it, hence never being able to lose it because you can't lose something you have never held. It is said that those who stray weren't truly a part of the pact. So what does this say? That we cannot LOSE salvation. If you believe in a God that has truly SAVED you, & can turn around and take that away by ACTS?, then there is no hope for ANYONE. Jesus died once & for all. One time. There is no limited atonement. He would cease to be the Lord, His words speaks of.There is no limit to the limitless. You cannot create the uncreated.Once we are lay our brokenness, worries, cares, pains at the feet of Abba, once we have set Christ Jesus on the Throne of our hearts, once we TRULY lay in the arms of the Other, there is no way He can let us go for it is said that no sheep can go astray once they have been claimed by the Good Shepard.But we must rest all things on ONE solid foundation. Sovereignty. There is something that we, as humans with finite minds, cannot understand. That is God's supreme & utmost Sovereignty. I am glad that this is fuzzy. I rejoice in not knowing all things. I sing songs to the Lord for the unclear picture He can deliver called Life. This brings upon, TRUST. If there is a clear outlined picture of life, trust ceases to exist. As Brennan Manning stated, "Craving clarity, we attempt to elminate the risk of trusting God."Let us trust in His Sovereignty. This is something we could never understand.In His Name
I totally agree that God knows all things from the beginning to the end. Our finite minds will never completely understand the awesome ways of God. I am saying that doctrine that can lead people astray is dangerous. My wife was raised in a five point Calvinist church. This church still exists to this day, but no efforts are beginning made to preach the Gospel to anyone. I am not saying that as a passing phrase. This is the truth and God can not be pleased when a body of believers live in disobedience to his Great Commission. If you truly believe that God's sovereignity will make sure all who will be saved hear the Gospel, then why would he command us to go? What I am trying to say is that God has chosen to use the church to share of who Jesus Christ is. The lack of obedience is sin and each person is accountable to God for their actions. Can a person in disobedience fail to present the Gospel to someone and that person die without knowing Christ. I believe that is absolutely possible. Even though God could intervene and make a way for the Gospel to be preached to some tribe that has never heard of who Jesus is, He has placed His authority in the church. If the church fails to move in obedience, those souls will be lost and this does break His heart.As far as a salvation by works, I do not hold to. However, James refers to the faith of a person without works is dead. We are not to judge people against people, but we are to inspect the fruit of that person to see if they are multiplying the kingdom of God and producing good fruit. If a person truly receives Christ into their life, but then turns away from Christ, I believe God allows this to happen according to the free will He has designed in man. The first two humans on planet Earth, Adam and Eve had a choice to either follow and obey God or listen to the lies of the serpent. We know what happened. What I am trying to say is that Adam had a choice to either follow in obedience to God or not. Eve had this same ability. They lived in a perfect world where sin had never entered into the heart of man before, yet they failed to follow God and turned to actually serve themselves. The moment they reject God's covering and presence, they were removed from the presence of God because of their sin. Adam reject God, but God allowed him to and made a way to restore him. If Adam never had a choice to serve God or not, would have made him some type of robot who only served God because God made him to. God created us with the ability to accept His grace or reject it, including those who once have been enlightened and reject the truth (See Hebrews Chapter 6). You can not taste of the things of God unless you have truly eaten of those blessing. You can not say that the person never eat, his stomach is full. The same person, however, can get up from the table of blessing and walk away from what God offered to give him or her. Peter warns to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.I once had a discussion with someone about this. I told them if the position of Calvinism is correct I make it to heaven. However, if I am correct that a person can turn away from God to the point of reject that grace and died in that state, they will be lost forever in eternity. Too many times the Bible gives parables and examples of people who chose not to continue with God. People like Judas who followed as a disciple of Christ for three years. I have heard so many people say that Judas was never truly saved to begin with, that is why he fell away from God. I challenge to also remember, however, that Judas did the same signs and miracles that the other disciples did. How can you heal and perform miracles for the glory of God unless you know Him? Can God use an unbeliever to perform the signs and wonders the disciples did? Jesus warned us not to attribute the things of God to Satan. Some might say that Judas did these signs and wonders from the power of Satan. The Bible does not state this and no one questioned the heart of Judas for those three years. Peter also fell away from God by rejecting Jesus three times. The difference between Peter and Judas, was that Peter repented and returned to God. Judas never could forgive himself for betraying Jesus. God allowed these choices to occur, even though His sovereignity could have stepped in made the events different. God has set into motion the laws of nature and can step in and change those laws of nature if He wants to and He does. However, I do not believe the Bible teaches that God controls humans like little puppets to do acts of evil or service unless the vessel is yielded. It works both ways, including those who are demon possessed. The person must be willing and yielded to be possessed by demon spirits. God allows this to happen and requires to enforce the victory He purchased on the cross two thousand years ago. Thanks for your thoughtsRemember, "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel!"Because of Him
I must begin this post by stating that I was raised believing the teachings of eternal security, perseverance of the saints, once saved always saved, or whatever else you want to refer to it as. It wasn't until this time last year when I really started getting into reading my Bible, that I noticed a whole bunch of verses that just don't fit with that doctrine. I believe one can reject it, never having it, hence never being able to lose it because you can't lose something you have never held. It is said that those who stray weren't truly a part of the pact. So what does this say? That we cannot LOSE salvation.This is something that a lot of pro-eternal security people say, but does the Bible actually say that? On the contrary Jesus paints quite a different picture in Luke 8:13 when He says "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. He does not say that they are people who "never truely believed" If you believe in a God that has truly SAVED you, & can turn around and take that away by ACTS?, then there is no hope for ANYONE. Jesus died once & for all. One time. There is no limited atonement. The Bible refers to eternal life as a "gift" (Romans 6:23). A gift is something freely given. The same verse also refers to death as "the wages of sin". Wages are something you earn. If God gives you the gift of eternal life and you go back into sin, God is not taking anything away, you are merely earning death. What God says in Ezekiel chapter 33 verses 12 through 20 is important to remember.Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; Eze 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. Eze 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. Eze 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. Eze 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. Eze 33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways. Many of the eternal security teachers try to discount the Old Testament by saying that it was a different covenant and that the Old testament isn't important anymore. Jesus didn't come to destroy the law, he came to fulfil it (Matthew 5:17) God doesn't change who He is. Just to clear up any confusion, Jesus says something similar in the New Testament. Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." And also in Revelation 2:23 it says (remember He's talking to the church here) "and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." We cannot earn salvation because it has been given to us freely, but we can certainly earn death as the wages of our unrepented sins.Jesus died once & for all. One time. There is no limited atonement. Yes Jesus died once and for all, you are completely correct in what you said there, but take a moment to look at Romans 3:24 and 25 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God". It says for sins that are past, not past present and future. There is no limited atonement, that is why it is important to confess our sins to God, so that He will forgive us of them. If we try and justify them ourselves, then Christ cannot be our justification. The New Testament often refers to people losing their salvation. Like Matthew 7:21 through 23 "Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." In order to have cast out devils these people would have had to have been saved, or they could not have done it, as is described in Acts 9:13-16 "Act 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. Act 19:14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.Act 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? Act 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."Practically the whole chapter of 2Peter chapter 2 talks about this, but I will bring to attention the last three verses in that chapter. "2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. " I can go on and on with scriptures that don't fit the eternal security point of view. The thought that God would be willing to forgive us every time we come to Him and ask forgiveness, to me makes Him sound like a more personal, more loving, kind merciful and gracious God. (note: asking forgiveness takes being humble, pride is what keeps us from confessing. And the Bible says "God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." James 4:6, 1Peter 5:5)May the Lord's grace be with you all.Always in Christ Jesus ~Shaun
I appreciate your thoughts about this question and I hope you continue to study the Word of God completely in context throughout and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth. There is only ONE correct intrepretation to what God says. Too many people want to say and think that each person can intrepret it as they believe. God forbid this teaching and thought! False doctrine can begin so easily in an environment that accepts false teaching with the truth. God means what He says and says what He means. It does not matter what man's opinion is, it is His opinion that counts.God Bless YouKelby :-)
There is only ONE correct intrepretation to what God says. Too many people want to say and think that each person can intrepret it as they believe. God forbid this teaching and thought! False doctrine can begin so easily in an environment that accepts false teaching with the truth....and 'the ONE correct interpretation' wouldn't happen to be the one that you hold I suppose? ;-)
philologos wrote:[quote...and 'the ONE correct interpretation' wouldn't happen to be the one that you hold I suppose? ;-) :-P I hope I am not the only one that can say that all the scriptures seem to minister to me differently each time I go back and read them, maybe that is why it's called the living word. :-)
Calvinism... Arminianism...I must admit to the brethren, I have not had peace in my heart about either of these teachings. For a long time now I have wrestled and wrestled with this question, and my spirit cannot come to terms with either. But perhaps that is a good thing:Psalm 131My heart is not proud, O LORD, my eyes are not haughty; I do not concern myself with great matters or things too wonderful for me. But I have stilled and quieted my soul; like a weaned child with its mother, like a weaned child is my soul within me. O Israel, put your hope in the LORD both now and forevermore.I have drawn a conclusion of mine own. I believe, with every fiber of my being, that this topic is too wonderful for me to comprehend. Considering all Scripture, God telling man to do one thing, God saying another... whether or not God chooses salvation or man chooses God...But one thing I do know: We are told to preach the gospel to all creation, and this I can understand. And this we can all do, and leave the rest up to God, whether a person will be saved or not, and whether a person will remain saved. The only thing we are required to do is preach the gospel and build up the brethren. If we do this, Calvinist or Arminian, we can all agree that this is the will of God.Leave these things to God. Rather, seek and save the lost, contend for the brethren, inherit the Kingdom.God bless,-Eli
One thing that I don't understand is how we can even discuss anything that John Calvin said or taught, given the fact that he was a murderer, thus totally discrediting him from even entering the discussion.Below are John Calvin's own words about Michael Servetus,- whom he had burned at the stake - in the spirit of the Inquisition:-"If he(Servetus) comes(to Geneva), I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight." -- John Calvin In Geneva, October 27, 1553, Michael Servetus was tied to a stake and slowly burned to death. Here is what John Calvin had to say about Michael Servetus after he was burned to death: "Many people have accused me of such ferocious cruelty that (they allege) I would like to kill again the man I have destroyed. Not only am I indifferent to their comments, but I rejoice in the fact that they spit in my face." -- John Calvin "Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt." -- John Calvin In the small town of Geneva with a population of only 16,000, fifty-seven executions took place sanctioned by John Calvin in a five-year period between 1542-1546. This is just a brief side-note on the author of the sadly deceptive teaching of Calvinism.Sincerely W B
A Word I recieved from the Lord.... Every avenue and every route to the truth has been revealed to you, and yet many deny My word and hold it in low esteem. For it is My word which was offered up eternally to remain as a quick and powerful and steadfast indication of My will. I am God, and there is no other! The religious decrees of men have run amok because of the persuasion of demonic presence to the end that they think they are doing God service in killing men. They do not realize that the Son of man came to save men's lives, not to destroy them. But these sons of men and sons of Satan do not hold Me as a valued entity before them. They disdain all truth and hold forth a lie and believe the lie rather than walk in love. For the lie is hate, and the opposite of all I espouse. I am love. Apart from Me there is no truth, and I am the author and finisher of truth. You cannot have an opinion about truth! The people of the world may delude themselves into believing the very earth is their mother, but those who know Me know differently. The concept that I created everything from nothing by faith is lost on the world. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. I hoped for a world in which My will and way would be tantamount, and so it will be in the end. Many look upon what they falsely conceive as God and vainly imagine Me to be a fool. They fail to see that there is an ongoing process which had a beginning and will have an end, as respecting the time quotient. Eternity will be embraced by each one of you at that time. Some will know that eternity in My blessed presence and others will fall far short and be lost to an eternity of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. I simply tell you, My children, watch and wait and expect, for perilous times have befallen the earth. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods."
Thanks for the comment W.B. I absolutely agree. I once heard someone pose the question"Would you take doctrinal or theological advise from a man who slowly burned and tortured a neighborhood dog to death on his front lawn?""Then why would you take doctrinal or theological advise from a man (John Calvin) who did this to another man and refused to repent only try to justify his actions?"I think it would not be an understatement to say John Calvin has done more to harm Christianity then any other man. (except maybe Constantine)
Just for the record...We have been around and around this mountain before. Please give the search function a try, it will help everyone form repeating many of the same things all over again. Thanks
I think it would not be an understatement to say John Calvin has done more to harm Christianity then any other man. (except maybe Constantine)I fully agree! Although I might put Constantine on top of the list. :-( Peace
I'll settle for a tie.
Just an afterthought to my earlier post. I don't think any of us (especially those of us who reject eternal security) really understand just how far God's love, grace and mercy extend.Over the past year I have been studying Gods word extensively on this issue and I truely believe that someone can reject their salvation, or walk away from it after having obtained salvation. On the other hand I have seen so many different people in opposition to eachother on this subject, and it all seems black and white. Either you're on one side of the argument or you're on the other. But all throughout my studies I have been getting an uneasiness about this subject. I cannot speak for everyone else but I feel that God has been showing me that I do not truely know how great His grace is. This is in no way an attempt to defend eternal security, but I don't think we actually give enough credit to God's love, grace and mercy.I think this will be my next subject of study.May God the father give you all wisdom in the research of His word. Amen.Always in Christ Jesus ~Shaun
I am not saying I am all-knowing and placing myself above all others in interpreting Scripture. However, the fact is true and remains that there is only one correct interpretation of Scripture. Taking the whole Bible (having read it many times over and studying this particular topic many different times), I have come to the correct position that the Holy Spirit will lead us and direct us into All truth. John Calvin's thoughts are not scriptural taking the WHOLE Bible into consideration. If you want to believe that Jesus only died for the few instead of ALL humanity, I believe you have just limited an all powerful God! Logic would begin to take the view point presented from the five points of Calvin that the elect will be saved whether the gospel is presented or not. This TOTALLY goes against the Great Commission (one of the final COMMANDMENTS given by our Lord). The earliest Calvinist actually believe they really could not know for sure they were the "elect" of God until they died and found out. Many placed prosperity as a sign of being one of the elect. WHAT A SAD SITUATION TO LIVE IN! Thanks be to God that the Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am saved and redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. 1 Timothy 4:1 warned along with other passages that false doctrine would be multiplied in the last days and I know we are living in them.The verse every Christian knows since they first enter the doors of the church, John 3:16, sums up the heart of God - "For God so loved the WORLD (everyone-not just the elect) He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER (that means exactly what it means whosoever-do not over analyze this and split theological hairs of who is the whosoever-In the Greek it means exactly what it is translated as whosoever!)believes in Him (this is the conditional security of the believer-you have to continue to trust in Christ to believe-it is that simple)should not perish, but have everlasting life. I do not want to serve a God that demands me to preach the Gospel to all and then find out it was really only meant for a few "elect" souls He already chose before the foundations of the world. That would make me a liar in presenting a false hope and would again make Paul the apostle a hyprocite. The original plan of God was to only direct His attention to the Jews (which I am 1/8th full blooded Jew), but Paul said that a branch was grafted into the vine (which is the Gentiles and the church). Anyone can be saved and anyone can either reject or accept the gift of salvation that was purchased by Jesus Christ! I hope you understand, I am not interested in splitting theological hairs, I am interested in populating the kingdom of heaven with souls who desperately need Jesus Christ. I will serve the God I know who is revealed in the Word of God who gave HIMSELF for Me and ALL who hear of this incredible good news. I do not believe God wanted to created a social club of the "elect" only. Remember there were a few guests he invited to a wedding one time in the Gosepels and some CHOSE not to come or were not ready. He did not want the place to be empty, so He opened it up for EVERYONE to come and be a part of the Bride (the church) for Jesus Christ.Thanks for your comment!God BlessKelby :-D
Amen Kelby, I completely agree.In Christ ~Shaun
Amen Kelby, I completely agree.In Christ ~Patrick
Hm. Again I stand firm on my view. You can reject the Good News therefore never receiving the gift. But if you were sincerely & truly held in the bossom of Abba, can we all understand, that there is NOTHING that can seperate us?God's love surpasses ALL sin, all transgressions, all acts, all praise, all shouts from the heart, there is nothing good that doesn't hangs on this one thing: God is love. But that has been said over & over, & time & again that it has become cliche. But can we fathom His love? Can we, who have finite minds, understand this very simple concept: His love, mercy, grace is endless.Seems simple, but NO man can truly understand this for we have minds that are banked.For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels or demons, neither the present or the future, not any powers, neither height or depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to seperate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.This written by Paul to the Romans. Can we understand this? Forget about Calvin. Forget about doctrinal "truths". Let us let go of ALL things. Can we understand this simple truth?, that nothing in all of His creation can seperate us from the love that is found in Christ Jesus. When one TRULY finds His love, it is IMPOSSIBLE for even God Himself to seperate you. That would make Him the author of pure lies. Abba would cease to be God. But O! How I rejoice in knowing that He is a faithful & trustworthy God.Nothing.In His Name
One thing that I don't understand is how we can even discuss anything that John Calvin said or taught, given the fact that he was a murderer, thus totally discrediting him from even entering the discussion.I think it would not be an understatement to say John Calvin has done more to harm Christianity then any other man.Brothers, please...if we ever want to know a good reason why revival tarries...here it is. By these rash comments you have just severed Spurgeon, Edwards, the Puritans, Chafer, RC Sproul, George Whitefield, Wayne Grudem, AW Pink, Robert Reyond, Tony Evans and many other true saints from the body. Or perhaps you have severed yourself from the body they belong to... it is you who are isolated."If however, you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another". Galatians 5 15."We have been around and around this mountain before. Please give the search function a try...Good advice. The other threads as I remember them were centered on discussions and not distortions.You know there was a time when I thought about Finney the way some of you feel about Calvin. Then I realized that inspite of theological differences, Finney was many times the desciple I probably ever will be. Although conversation at Sermon Index tends to zig and zag abit, it has always done so across the line of orthodox evangelical Christianity...the faith handed to us by historic saints from many centuries and countries. Unlike many Christian communities, Sermon Index has walked the Arminian/Calvinist division with balance, grace and respect so that the higher goal of revival could always be paramount. The stream of bitterness forming in this thread can't be received by many of the saints that come to this watering hole looking for something to drink. Not to overstep my place, but if you feel called to be an anti-calvinist perhaps there are other forums where saints nibble on the carrion of slander and pride. This is a place for healthy meat.This is all too sad. I thought the scriptural commentary Servus had posted earlier was worthy of much consideration, but brothers, you make me want to call myself a Calvinist just to be distinguished from the biting and devouring you demonstrate.MC
In my opinion, Calvin's teaching is very wrong but I don't believe just because you are a Calvinist you are on your way to hell.There are many subjects in the scriptures that Christians have different opinions on. It seems to me that my opinions are right, but I've noticed that I've never met a person that there isn't something they believe that is of a different opinion than myself. Some people have opinions that are almost the same as my opinions but there is always a point somewhere that we differ. Maybe my opinions are wrong sometimes!In Christ,GaryE
Paul warned of false teachings in the last days (refer to 1 Timothy 4:1). The spirit in which you attack me makes me wonder your heart in this matter. I married a woman who came out of a five point Calvinist church that was so dead and is still dead today because not one effort is being made to reach the lost for Jesus Christ. The tragedy is they think they are following God's directions and commands. You must really think that false teaching is acceptable within the church! I will never accept a teaching that basically has me telling others of what Jesus did for them on the cross, but really He didn't because He didn't die for them, but just the "elect." I am not an anti-Calvinist. I am against anything that takes the attention away from the Gospel going forth. I believe true five point Calvin doctrine is going to create a lack of reaching the lost for Christ. As far as some of those you mentioned (which you claim I have eaten as carrion). I have read and contain many of the sermons and writings of great revivalists like George Whitefield who did not allow being a Calvinist to keep him from preaching in the rain for hours. Stories were told that people would wake him up from his sleep to have him preach to them in the early morning. Rain could be pouring down upon them, but they wanted to hear this man of God. Benjamin Franklin credited him as one of the most incredible men he ever met. I agree with what George Whitefield said once, "I do not aim at the head when I preach, but at the heart." AMEN! The problem is when teachings that lead a WHOLE church to not have even ONE missionary going to another country or NO ONE going to tell others about the good news of Jesus Christ. Now, I am sure not all Calvinist churches are this way. I even know a few who are not Calvinist churches which are just as in need of revival too. I am trying to clarify the fact there is only one correct interpretation of Scripture. Taking the WHOLE Bible in context, Calvin did not communicate the true Word of God correctly. He did have multiple people burned to the stake for disagreeing with him, I hope you will not do the same with me! Calvin desired to know the truth of the Word of God like all of us do, but failed. Just as Paul had to confront believers who found the Lord Jesus as their Savior, but wanted to go back into following the law to be saved by circumcision. He was very strong and rebuked those who would teach such things. He even confronted Peter in Galatians 2:13-21 because he was wrong. Be careful of just naming names to say that Spurgeon was more biblically correct just because his name was Spurgeon. Peter was the first preacher of the new church on the Day of Pentecost, yet errored in his teaching, which Paul corrected him. If people are not open to looking at the truth, the use of this forum is then lacking. I am not about to tell you I know all of what Scripture contains, that I have a greater insight into the Word of God than those you mentioned. I do, however, consult the author on these issues and He directed me to the truth on this topic. The Bible states to seek the Holy Spirit for direction and that HE would lead us into all truth.If people want to believe in a God that has predestined people to go to hell and limit my Jesus's atonement to a select few, they can chose so. There are Christians that believe the Great Tribulation is something they will have to go through and do not even believe in a rapture. I believe if you want to stay here, God will allow you to do so. I believe the best way to interpret the Word of God is not man's opinions, but what He said. There is no way my God who I love and serve would ever allow me to go out and lie to the world about Him dying for their sin when actually He only died for the select few. Read the whole Bible and see if that is anything that my God is truly like. I think once you take those verses that are used to support such a false conception of God out of the way and place them in the context God intended, you will see the truth. Brother, I pray you would know my heart. I want a revival like a man who is dying in the desert for a drink of water. It has been far too long since a fresh move of God has come to America. I believe we both can agree on this much. America needs Jesus Christ deseparately. I could careless if you are Calvinist/Baptist/Methodist or Allofthis! I want God to set the captives free, to populate heaven with as many souls as possible. If you think I have isolated myself, that is your opinion (many did that with Finney too). I feel I am in good company with many others who have the same heart beat for America. I apologize if you are offended. I am sure Peter did not take the rebuke from Paul easy either. I just know God wants everyone to be saved and the church continues to sleep allowing multiple millions upon millions to died in their sin. Repentance must happen NOW! GOD HEAL OUR LAND. GOD WE TURN FROM OUR WICKED WAYS AND PLEASE COME HEAL OUR LAND!God Bless YOUBecause of HimKelby
I do not believe or could ever think that! I am not sure where you picked that up. Error is going to happen, but if you trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior you WILL BE SAVED! NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO JUDGE A PERSON'S SALVATION DUE TO DOCTRINAL BELIEF! The only clear teaching for salvation is to accept Jesus as the Messiah and make Him Lord and Savior of your life!God BlessKelby :-)
It is worth trying to understand what was going on in 16th century Europe, before singling out Calvin for criticism. We have no idea how we would stand up to the persecutions he witnessed, where many died at the hands of those seeking to establish their credentials with Rome.EDIT added: When he began writing, there were very many more than 5 points in his definition of Biblical truth. And, you would agree with many of them. I'm not sure how it got reduced and can now be called 'false teaching' but I accept that's where we are today. Blaming Calvin for where we are today, over 400 years since his original work, may be slightly unfair, though! :-P EDIT ended. I thought the scriptural commentary Servus had posted earlier was worthy of much consideration,I thought so too, as I'd never heard those verses expounded lucidly together. Unlike many Christian communities, Sermon Index has walked the Arminian/Calvinist division with balance, grace and respect so that the higher goal of revival could always be paramount. This is a beautiful waltz tune, but the words which go with it - the only place revival can start, I believe - pack a punch. :-?http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/e/searchme.htmSearch me, O God,And know my heart today;Try me, O Savior,Know my thoughts, I pray.See if there beSome wicked way in me;Cleanse me from every sinAnd set me free.I praise Thee, Lord,For cleansing me from sin;Fulfill Thy Word,And make me pure within.Fill me with fireWhere once I burned with shame;Grant my desireTo magnify Thy Name.Lord, take my life,And make it wholly Thine;Fill my poor heartWith Thy great love divine.Take all my will,My passion, self and pride;I now surrender, LordIn me abide.O Holy Ghost,Revival comes from Thee;Send a revival,Start the work in me.Thy Word declaresThou wilt supply our need;For blessings now,O Lord, I humbly plead.Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. (NASB, NKJV)
I was under the assumption that these forums were for discussing issues so that we could learn together. Why then do so many of these lead to arguments? I have noticed a little friction starting to build up here. If we're going to discuss issues then it should be done humbly and with meekness, not with a pointing accusatory finger.Every time I read and reply to these forums, I stop and pray before I do so. I take time to think about what people say, even if I disagree with them. There is always something that can be learned from someone, no matter how different their doctrine is. I ask right now Lord that you will guide this discussion and help us to remain peaceful and handle ourselves worthy of being called children of God. Help us to learn through our sharing of scriptures. Help us to be humble as we take the time to discuss your word. In Jesus name I pray, Amen. I ask at this point if you are reading this that you just take a moment and pray as well and ask God for wisdom, patience and humility before continuing with any responses. Let us stop this argument before it even starts.Always in Christ Jesus ~Shaun
Servus wrote:I was under the assumption that these forums were for discussing issues so that we could learn together. Why then do so many of these lead to arguments? This is the exact reason I recently left a wonderful Bible study group I used to attend, My Spirit could not handle the sometimes heated discussions, we had some there that wanted the scriptures to mean what they said they meant and had a zero tolerance to any mutual agreement. I don't have the answer for why some Christians have a zero tolerance to believing that a scripture just might not mean what they seem to say it does, but I haven't met many "including myself" that has some point in life tried to get the meaning of a scripture to fit their needs or what they wanted it to mean to justify their lifestyle or personal belief, but I finally got over that attitude and have since moved on, now my walk is closer to the Lord and a lot easier.
if you feel called to be an anti-calvinist perhaps there are other forums where saints nibble on the carrion of slander and pride.On the contrary, Compton, I do not wish the brethren to feed on the carrion of doctrines contrived by murderers.Why do we always have to 'circle the wagons' and 'wink, wink' at John Calvin's hideous sin of murder so smugly condoned by large sections of the church? This is something that needs to be exposed to earnest seekers of truth. Instead we have this culture of 'fear and loathing' which is promulgated to keep the facts hidden.Seeking the truth in all things, in peace,W B
but brothers, you make me want to call myself a Calvinist just to be distinguished from the biting and devouring you demonstrate.Sadly, Compton, you have chosen to identify with Calvin, rather than identify Calvin for what he is."If however, you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another". Galatians 5 15."A serious warning, but used out of context in your post. Remember that Calvin ordered the slow burning of Michael Servetus, ensuring that green twigs were added to the fire - the ultimate in 'devouring and consuming'.Peace
WB,I like what you are saying and believe your are correct.Here is a link to some good information.http://www.thesearchforbiblicaltruth.org/seach_for_the_truth_004.htmThe tenth animated online etract is called The Burning of Michael ServetusBe sure to click on the link Read the whole, fully documented story or John Calvin and Michael Servetus at the bottom of the etract.
Why do we always have to 'circle the wagons' and 'wink, wink' at John Calvin's hideous sin of murder so smugly condoned by large sections of the church? This is something that needs to be exposed to earnest seekers of truth. Instead we have this culture of 'fear and loathing' which is promulgated to keep the facts hidden.Seeking the truth in all things, in peace,Hi wildbranch, seeking the truth in all things, in peace,I have three questions.How do you get past the fact that Moses and David were murderers?Do you know why Calvin, a Frenchman, left France?Could you please glance at the chapter titles of his Institutes of Religion, and then say if you can be a little impressed by his enthusiasm for the word of God? http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/Thank you.I found this 'Public criticism of those responsible for his [Michael Servetus's] execution, the Reform Protestants in Geneva and their pastor, John Calvin, moreover, inspired unitarians and other groups on the radical left-wing of the Reformation to develop and institutionalize their own heretical views. Widespread aversion to Servetus' death has been taken as signaling the birth in Europe of religious tolerance, a principle now more important to modern Unitarian Universalists than antitrinitarianism.'here. http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/michaelservetus.htmlWhat was shocking about this, is that a reformer died at the hands of reformers, but, in those days, to refute the Trinity was risky, as was to reject the divinity of Christ. And, those sprinkled as infants who later took believers' baptism, were also being executed. I'm not clear as to why this particular 'due process' causes such controversy, seeing we cannot go back and fix it. Isn't it more important that we search the scriptures ourselves, and find a better way?
Listen friends, I only raised my hand to speak because I felt you were engaging in partisanship instead of fellowship. I know we really want to be faithful to the knowledge that God has given to us. I can be challenged and convicted by your knowledge of scripture and even more importantly your own life...yet the moment you start in with opinionated protests all I hear is clang clang clang.I appreciate that some of us came from bad 5-point Calvinist experiences. Some of us came from bad Arminian experiences. So what do we do with these antidotes? Vilify each other? Worse...do we make cartoons of each other’s beliefs? Do we say that Calvinists believe in "Security with license to sin?" or that they don't believe in sharing the gospel even though these are absurd distortions? On the other hand do we glibly say that Arminians don't believe in the sovereignty of God or that they lower the holiness of God...both of which are gross misrepresentations? Being the organizational creatures we are we have polarized into two streams. One following the free will of man and the other the sovereignty of God. Both are unassailable truths. Alas, our little cortexes don't have enough bus speed to keep both of these programs running at the same time so we default. If truth is really what we are wanting we should be thrilled because here we have two truths!But this debate is not about truth. It's about certainty. These struggles are manifestations of our need to be certain about our faith...even if I have to rob others of their certainty. We have been given one facet of the diamond and make the mistake there aren't any more.Well, one day we shall find our certainty in whom it truly exists. Not in the collected facts of our doctrines, for my computer holds those and my computer does not know God. There is one gospel...most of it is revealed in brief letters given to the churches. So let's keep debating these scriptures, even with the passion and emotion of people who really care about the gospel as I know all of us do. ...but if we can't understand someone let's not resort to making a cartoon of them and denouncing their beliefs.If you really want a good debate just let me know which “side” I should be on. I can argue either side with equal passion and reasonable skill. They both work, as long as you "Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts".MC
Here's the problem: We're here to discuss the scriptures in search of the truth. When we attack someone or accuse them, they become no more willing to listen. Hence telling them what you believe the scriptures are telling you becomes a waste of time. It becomes like talking to a brick wall. If you know for a certainty what you believe is the truth, then speak it. Once you have spoken it, it is NOT your responsibility to prove to them and MAKE THEM believe it as well. Either they will believe it or they won't. People cannot know the things of God unless God reveals it to them. If God reveals it to them then you do not need to make them believe by arguing with them. And if God does not reveal it to them, Then they will not believe it either, arguing with them then becomes a waste of time. It is our job if we see an error, to go and point it out... if people do not heed our voice, then we have done our part.Eze 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. Eze 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.Eze 33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Humility is the key. We really shouldn't be basing this discussion on Calvin anyway. The discussion isn't what Calvin believed or didn't believe... it's what the Bible says on this issue. If you're here to discuss issues based upon what you believe, or what you think, rather than getting into the bible and showing what it says... then you are merely wasting your time. You can believe what you believe all you want, but if it is merely based upon opinion, you are wasting your time. We have gotten extremely side-tracked from the topic of this conversation. This thread is a discussion of whether or not a man can lose his salvation, so let's get back on track and start getting into the BIBLE about it, and stop fighting about what Calvin did. In Christ ~Shaun
First of all, writing in this form is very difficult for people to read the emotion or feeling behind what is being said. IF ANYONE HAS BEEN OFFENDED I ASK YOU TO FORGIVE ME! My intention was NEVER to harm anyone's feelings in any way! It is, however, important that you know what you believe and why. TOO MANY CHRISTIANS ARE SITTING IN THE CHURCHES NOT EVEN CHECKING OUT WHAT THE PASTORS ARE SAYING IS TRUTH! Make sure you ALWAYS take your Bible and study the context of what is said from any message. We have too many "new" revelations being preached that take the Scripture totally out of context!Praise God WE KNOW JESUS!Kelby
We're here to discuss the scriptures in search of the truth. When we attack someone or accuse them, they become no more willing to listen. ...Humility is the key. We really shouldn't be basing this discussion on Calvin anyway. The discussion isn't what Calvin believed or didn't believe... it's what the Bible says on this issue...This thread is a discussion of whether or not a man can lose his salvation, so let's get back on track and start getting into the BIBLE about it, and stop fighting about what Calvin did.Sounds good!MC
We need Jesus to be proclaimed in such a powerful way right now in the world! He has COMMANDED us to proclaim the good news of Christ, it is not an option. However, how many times a day do we ignore the opportunities or being led by the Holy Spirit to share who He is? I pray those opportunities will become realities as we share the Good News that Jesus Christ died for ALL and ANYONE can be saved! Praise God, He is NO RESPECTOR OF PERSONS!
Servus wrote:Here's the problem: We're here to discuss the scriptures in search of the truth. When we attack someone or accuse them, they become no more willing to listen. Hence telling them what you believe the scriptures are telling you becomes a waste of time. It becomes like talking to a brick wall. If you know for a certainty what you believe is the truth, then speak it. Once you have spoken it, it is NOT your responsibility to prove to them and MAKE THEM believe it as well. Either they will believe it or they won't. People cannot know the things of God unless God reveals it to them. If God reveals it to them then you do not need to make them believe by arguing with them. And if God does not reveal it to them, Then they will not believe it either, arguing with them then becomes a waste of time. It is our job if we see an error, to go and point it out... if people do not heed our voice, then we have done our part.In Christ ~ShaunWow! Now that is powerful!! and I totally agree that is why it's called the "living word of God" so each scripture can minister to each of us in different ways, and if you try and read a scripture and figure out what it is ministering to you without the help of the Holy Spirit to me personally it would be in vain, so how can one say to another what this scripture is saying to anyone other than the person reading it? :-?
if you try and read a scripture and figure out what it is ministering to you without the help of the Holy Spirit to me personally it would be in vain, so how can one say to another what this scripture is saying to anyone other than the person reading it? Don't forget, each sentence of scripture has a basic grammatical meaning which should be taken in context. And we should make every effort to understand that plain meaning, in that context. What me or you or anyone cannot account for, is the additional meaning which is significant to that one reader only, at a deeper level, which the Holy Spirit may bring. It may be that until several levels of meaning have been received by the reader, they don't really 'get' what God it trying to say. Some verses won't make sense till other verses do, because they are conveying spiritual meaning, mainly. Whereas, some of the historic accounts of Bible people, teach us much, as we understand how God cared for them and they believed Him in desperate moments.In principle, directing fellow believers to a living relationship with Jesus Christ, is more help to the kingdom of God, than testing our grasp of doctrine. Doctrine is like a great transparent globe, in which many cross-cross-references must all hold together in a single entity called 'Biblical truth'. While this is a great exercise for minds, it may be a distraction for some.Here is an article worth reading - the first 5 paragraphs on balance, at any rate - An Honest Heart by A W Pink. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1115
dorcas wrote:Don't forget, each sentence of scripture has a basic grammatical meaning which should be taken in context. And we should make every effort to understand that plain meaning, in that context. Yes, I do understand that sorry I guess I should have said that also, I just went beyond that should have started out a little simplier with my statement.ThanksBill