Vaccine question

All, I am not someone who is against vaccine for Covid. I also believe everyone who does not have faith to take it should have freedom not to take it. Because anything done without faith is a sin. Now I have 2 brothers who believe in opposite side of the spectrum! Here is the argument posted by a brother who is in for vaccines. I want to know how a Christian who is lacking faith with vaccines can answer this!

It is a known fact that hospitals are filled by covid patients who need care and more than 90% of them are unvaccinated . Now because the hospitals are running full due to these unvaccinated covid patients, those who are having other serious medical conditions are not able to find a bed. I have heard cases where people have to visit 2 to 4 hospitals before getting an admission into ER or Urgent care. Now if my freedom is affecting the life of others around me, how do I face it as a Christian? Do I still say that I do not have faith and be insensitive to those who are struggling?

Where are you getting the ideal NOT getting vaccinated is a lack of faith? What are you talking about? Where are you getting this from?

I think he meant lacking faith in the vaccines not lacking faith. I had to read it a couple of times.

My answer is the same I'm going to give to my employers. If you only look at the vaccine and covid-19 then you can make your case for the vaccine. If you look at the bigger picture however then the case is made against the vaccination. The transfer of wealth, the great reset agenda (out of their own mouth), the media lies, the rise of marxism, the attack on capitalism, the attack on nationalism, the movement toward globalism, etc. Its basically looking at this from a boxed view as opposed to a big picture view.

I would be able to back up every single one of those big picture items with links to any one who questions those items.

"Do I still say that I do not have faith and be insensitive to those who are struggling?"

This is not a good argument. If most of the people that are in E.R. are unvaccinated then it was their choice as well. If the vaccinated are protected from hospitalization then what is the problem?

If death count is the concern here then covid-19 in this country has killed about half a million people and its survival rate is greater than 99%.

Do you know how many people marxism has killed? Its a matter of prioritization as well for me personally.

Correction to my last post. I didn't see the part where Sreeram mentioned other people with other medical conditions not able to get into E.R. because of unvaccinnated people using up beds.

Its still a matter of prioritization as to which is the greater threat. Marxism > Covid-19. 100,000,000 dead vs 600,000 dead (4.5 million dead worldwide).

I apologize that my post may not be clear. I typed it in hurry and first part of it is my personal view which I dont want to debate here. I am just explaining the context in the first part. 2nd part is the actual question.

The question is clear. We hear that the ER is full of people who are not vaccinated and are having serious Covid side effects. This is blocking needy people from accessing ER due to other medical issues. People who took vaccine are prevented from access to hospitals because the beds are occupied by these unvaccinated people. Should we not be considerate to others and make sure our faith (or lack of it) should not cause harm to others? This is not a false propaganda but a fact in every hospital that are flooded with Covid patients.

I clearly see here that unvaccinated people are harming others by occupying the hospital beds.

Its still a matter of prioritization as to which is the greater threat. Marxism > Covid-19. 100,000,000 dead vs 600,000 dead (4.5 million dead worldwide).

The question is not whether Covid is dangerous or not. Even if we all agree that COvid is not deadly, it is still proven fact that unvaccinated people are having severe symptoms due to Covid that needs hospitalization. But if they chose to be vaccinated then their need for hospitalization can be reduced which will free the hospitals for other needy people.

I would say the question is based on presumption of "facts" that are questionable. I read recently that in Israel those hospitalized with Covid were 59% vaccinated. Israel has one of the highest vaccination levels in the world.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/nearly-60-of-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-in-israel-fully-vaccinated-study-finds.html

Also, where are the examples of people being turned away?

Here is an example.

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/just-over-96-of-georgias-icu-beds-are-now-full

Here is an extract from this news article.

"And, it's not just COVID," Delzell says. "I think one of the things it's easy to forget is that we're worried about COVID all the time, but if you think about a patient who comes in and has a heart attack, and there's no beds available, there's no ICU beds, that person is impacted as well."

Until more people get vaccinated, Delzell says, this may be the new normal.

"The thing I'm worried about is this isn't the last wave," he says. "This is going to go away over the next couple of months, and then it's going to come back."

Delzell says the only way to stem the tide is for more people to get vaccinated.

In Georgia, 44% of residents are fully vaccinated.

It is easy to call everything conspiracy and challenge facts sitting behind computers.

As a Christian how will we justify our cause when we turn blind eye to people around us and worry only about few conspiracy theories on vaccines?

My answer is the same I'm going to give to my employers. If you only look at the vaccine and covid-19 then you can make your case for the vaccine. If you look at the bigger picture however then the case is made against the vaccination.

The bigger picture was always bad even before Covid. The world and its system has always been moving in the wrong direction. I will give you one example here.

I came to USA as an unbeliever more than a decade ago. I hated getting into debt because my family had suffered a lot by getting into debt. So I never used credit card in my home country. But here in USA, we have this credit rating system that requires one to hold Credit card. If a person never got into debt then he will never be given debt as well for needy things like buying a house or a car.

Even though I had enough salary to afford a car, a seller rejected to give me a loan because of my lack of credit history. I was forced to accept credit card because of this concept of Credit history. I believe the concept of buy now and pay later is evil. We should only be buying with what money we have. Within our financial boundary that God has given us.

Buying a home or a car in loan is different because if we fail to pay the lender has a resource to get the money back. But credit card is evil because it makes us accept debt for daily bread.

So I decided to pay back my card much earlier than the due date so that I had never to pay interest for my (and my family) daily living expenses. By God's mercy it has been the same way till now.

Now it is not having credit card that makes me a debtor or a sinner who disobeys Romans 13:8, it is how I use it. If I buy stuff that is beyond my paying power just because a bank offers credit card then I get into credit debts and fail to obey Romans 13:8. Then the credit card I hold is a mark of the beast!

Back home in my country of birth, loans are always based on your earning potential. But here the system itself is corrupt to make us live outside our financial boundary.

The point I am making is, the world system is always there to corrupt us and pull us. But we should be careful how we use the system rather than staying away from the system. Even our cellphone can easily keep us away from kingdom of God but it is how we use it that keeps us safe.

I believe a person taking vaccine recognizing that God is still in control, nothing that enters their body can corrupt them (Mark 7:15), will be honored by God. This to me is faith. It is the same faith that, God will give me wisdom to wisely use my Credit card, cell phone, internet etc. All these things can lead us away from the Lord but we still use them by faith that his Grace will protect us.

There is a difference between this specific vaccine in this current pandemic and the general use of credit cards, smart phones, etc.

I will be posting some links to an old thread from 2020 and I'll respond to your post more fully later today if I get time.

You wrote : "But if they chose to be vaccinated then their need for hospitalization can be reduced which will free the hospitals for other needy people.”

And ...

" I clearly see here that unvaccinated people are harming others by occupying the hospital beds.”

And...

" As a Christian how will we justify our cause when we turn blind eye to people around us and worry only about few conspiracy theories on vaccines?”

And ...

" I believe a person taking vaccine recognizing that God is still in control, nothing that enters their body can corrupt them.”

Without pointing out the obvious predisposition in your posts too overtly.... I would like to point out (for Christ’s namesake) the logical fallacy in the last quote.... if you actually believe these words you wrote- "God is still in control, nothing that enters their body can corrupt them”-
Then your argument (posturing) is moot... as your point would clearly apply to the virus which would preclude any need of a vaccine 🤷🏽”â™‚️

And FTR the first few quotes cited above are simply misinformed.... the same claims are being made locally (big medical community) and so I inquired with clients that work on that floor and was told that it’s a very misleading way to characterize the situation,... stating that in fact there are lots of ICU beds available but they don’t have staff to cover them, so they say "we are full” but in fact are playing politics with peoples lives - I have personally addressed this with more than one client who is claimed to me they were "full” and in every case where I confronted them with "inside” knowledge from actual nurses and doctors on the Covid floor, they immediately backed off the willfully misleading statements... in one instance the proclamation was so egregious (this neurosurgeon was unaware I had friends/clients on the Covid floor) that I was obliged to inform him that if his statement was made under oath in a court case that he would be guilty of perjury 💯

Brother Sree, it’s important to remember that we have an enemy who is the father of deception (lies) and he’s working overtime because his time is short...

There is a difference between this specific vaccine in this current pandemic and the general use of credit cards, smart phones, etc.

I will be posting some links to an old thread from 2020 and I'll respond to your post more fully later today if I get time.

I definitely appreciate your post. But I do not want this thread to side track from the actual question on the current hospital situation caused by those who do not want to be vaccinated. I would suggest after you answer my main question, please go ahead with your understanding on vaccine.

No matter whatever valid reason a person has to not take the vaccine if this is hindering meeting the basic needs of others then as a Christian we all need to think about it. If my conviction is risking the very survival of others then I need to examine my conviction no matter how much it is justified. Showing love and being considerate to others matter so much than obeying once conviction on vaccine. I believe we can all agree to this fundamental rule before we try to answer the question. If we do not even agree on this rule then there is no matter having a discussion. It is like competing a game of tennis with a person who does not agree on fundamental rules of tennis. In any discussion we need to have a basic rule on which we stand before we place our arguments.

I believe discussing on the conspiracy theories on current vaccine and its manufacturing methods will side track from the main objective of this thread.

I apologize for posting on my view of this world system and how it slowly pulls us away from the Lord.

if you actually believe these words you wrote- "God is still in control, nothing that enters their body can corrupt them”-
Then your argument (posturing) is moot... as your point would clearly apply to the virus which would preclude any need of a vaccine

I can understand what you call logical fallacy. I appreciate you pointing it out.

I do understand logic and make my living writing logical statements!

The difference is I have faith that God is in control but I cannot expect everyone around me to live by the same faith as mine. For example I have faith that I cannot get Covid (or any sickness) without God's approval, but that does not mean that I can go ahead and meet others when I am exposed to Covid. If I am exposed to Covid then I should respect the wellbeing of others and quarantine myself.

Just because I believe God is in Control, I cannot let my conviction (of not taking Covid vaccine) fill the hospital beds.

Even Bible is so clear when it says our faith should not cause another person to stumble.

I hope you can see the logic in my statement.

And FTR the first few quotes cited above are simply misinformed

If we start calling everything conspiracy and close our eyes to reality then there is no end to ignorance. The people I have met are brothers and sisters working in Hospitals. People who are serious in following the Lord and strong believers. They are my first hand witness. I have also witnessed believers who were denied healthcare because hospitals are full.

Whether Hospitals are full or whether there are lack of staffs. It is a fact that majority of covid patients in hospitals are unvaccinated. They need serious medical attention when infected. These are facts and not conspiracy.

We are working with different facts ... much like a prosecutor and a defense attorney 🤷🏽”â™‚️ ie; 99.7% percent of people infected w/virus fully recovered-

In any case,... we much each walk in the light we have- so for your "two brothers” who have differing perspectives, they each (as we all) will give an account of their actions in the light of eternal truth 💯 so you can confidently encourage them to do so because even tho they will come to different conclusions, the Lord Himself will address the inconsistencies by His Holy Spirit with all of His children on an individual basis,... were our actions based on fear or faith?

Incidentally,... the perspective you put forth has historically led to segregation with a NT biblical example being the lepers being segregated from society (by law) which Jesus didn’t see as worthy of obedience 🤷🏽”â™‚️

99.7% percent of people infected w/virus fully recovered-

I appreciate your point. Just wanted to clarify that I am not discussing about the deadly nature of Virus. I am not saying people should take vaccine because the virus is deadly. Even if it is deadly or not, people should have freedom to choose their own fate. But when our freedom affects the mere existence of others like in this case where the hospitals are full, we need to check our conviction.

Just to clarify, your point is the hospitals are not full, unvaccinated people are not in any way responsible for the mess in the hospitals, all these are lies spread to force believers into vaccination. Please correct me if I am wrong.

In the case of the 2 brothers I am talking about, the brother who did not take vaccine, do recognize that hospitals are full, as he himself witnessed another fellow believer being denied treatment. Now he cannot say these are lies. How can he now justify his stand about vaccine?

Hi Sreeram,

I wrote:

"There is a difference between this specific vaccine in this current pandemic and the general use of credit cards, smart phones, etc.

I will be posting some links to an old thread from 2020 and I'll respond to your post more fully later today if I get time."

You wrote:

"I definitely appreciate your post. But I do not want this thread to side track from the actual question on the current hospital situation caused by those who do not want to be vaccinated. I would suggest after you answer my main question, please go ahead with your understanding on vaccine."

That is fine but to whom was I responding there? Was it not your post? Basically you sidetracked the discussion, got me to respond, and then state that you want to go back to the main discussion while implying that I was the one who went off track. There is much confusion being caused here. Along with strawman arguments.

For example:

"Now it is not having credit card that makes me a debtor or a sinner who disobeys Romans 13:8, it is how I use it. If I buy stuff that is beyond my paying power just because a bank offers credit card then I get into credit debts and fail to obey Romans 13:8. Then the credit card I hold is a mark of the beast!

Back home in my country of birth, loans are always based on your earning potential. But here the system itself is corrupt to make us live outside our financial boundary.

The point I am making is, the world system is always there to corrupt us and pull us. But we should be careful how we use the system rather than staying away from the system. Even our cellphone can easily keep us away from kingdom of God but it is how we use it that keeps us safe.

I believe a person taking vaccine recognizing that God is still in control, nothing that enters their body can corrupt them (Mark 7:15), will be honored by God. This to me is faith. It is the same faith that, God will give me wisdom to wisely use my Credit card, cell phone, internet etc. All these things can lead us away from the Lord but we still use them by faith that his Grace will protect us."

Basically your saying that people are not taking the vaccination because they fear the effects it will have on their body. But to whom are you responding to in this thread? If no one then this is a strawman.

Maybe this is your style of discussing things but this will end up being a very long discussion that will get no where.

If you want to restate your original question concisely and give only short clear answers without going off track I will be happy to dialogue with you.

You wrote " Just to clarify, your point is the hospitals are not full, unvaccinated people are not in any way responsible for the mess in the hospitals, all these are lies spread to force believers into vaccination. Please correct me if I am wrong.”

No that would be a mischaracterization of my actual position, tho that statement is not an accusation that you’re doing it deliberately-

Again, we are working with different points of reference which is why we come to different conclusions...

As born again believers we should have Christ as our exclusive point of reference, ie; "taking every thought captive making it obedient to Christ”
If in doing this, two members of Christ’s body come to different conclusions then they each must walk in the light they have, allowing the Holy Spirit to do His work to reconcile and restore.

To your point- you seem to have founded your case on the efficacy of the "vaccine” which, I hope you can understand, has been shown (Israel) to not only be ineffective but perilous for many who have received it-
Again we are highlighting different data points to qualify our respective positions and as such would not likely come to compatible conclusions-

To be clear, the current "vaccine” will not, I repeat, will not prevent infection, nor the spread of the virus in question, as there are so many cases (ie: Israel tho not the only example) where fully vaccinated individuals were infected after having been fully vaccinated.

It really comes down to what we "want” to believe and in each case a person can easily find "facts” to qualify their beliefs...
(For me) it is really a matter of did we receive "the love of the truth” per
ll Thess ll ?

Having said this, your civility in this discussion is greatly appreciated dear brother 🙏🏻

To be clear, the current "vaccine” will not, I repeat, will not prevent infection, nor the spread of the virus in question, as there are so many cases (ie: Israel tho not the only example) where fully vaccinated individuals were infected after having been fully vaccinated.

I completely agree with it. I believe there are lot of lies spread about vaccine in a positive way saying it will prevent the spread of infection. Even though vaccines can prevent the spread of virus (based on statistics), it cannot be proved with certainty. We can only look at past vaccine records and conclude the efficiency of vaccine.

My point is, vaccines can definitely reduce the risk of hospitalization and there by help others by freeing hospitals in case I get infected. The current condition of hospitals has proven this fact.

I past 2 weeks I am ware of 2 people getting Covid. One who was vaccinated did NOT have serious effects but the unvaccinated brother almost met death. He ended up taking the vaccine after first hand experiencing the danger of the virus. It is true that both recovered but how they recovered matters.

You wrote ;”
My point is, vaccines can definitely reduce the risk of hospitalization and there by help others by freeing hospitals in case I get infected. The current condition of hospitals has proven this fact. ”

Well that’s only a "fact” at the exclusion of other "facts”.. ie; Israel 🤷🏽”â™‚️

What the studies I have researched have demonstrated is that prophylactic use of readily available (off label) medications would reduce hospitalizations without the dire side-effects the vaccine poses... so if reducing hospitalization is your objective then clearly the best solution is the use of prophylactics - my brother and his family is a perfect example of this 😇

Well that’s only a "fact” at the exclusion of other "facts”.. ie; Israel 🤷🏽”â™‚️

I don't understand what fact Israel is showing here. If we are not believing what we see before our eyes in USA with hospitals being full then how is something happening in Israel can give a rational solution? We do not know what virus strain is affecting Israel, we do not know the age group of infected people in Israel. Further the point of discussion is the need for hospitalization with people who are not vaccinated.

Let us face a practical question. Suppose a Strong Christian who is not vaccinated finds a fellow brother fighting for life with stroke (not related to Covid). He is then taking this brother to multiple hospitals only to be rejected by them due to lack of beds. Then how in clear conscience can he still hold his stand about vaccines when he sees his brother die because of people like him who are not taking vaccines have occupied all the beds in hospitals?

One possible solution that my vaccinated brother suggested is - people who do not take vaccines can have this self attested letter in their pocket that reads like "Let me die of Covid at home and do not take me to hospitals", this way they can ensure that only they are affected by their stand and not others. This makes sure they are not a nuisance to the society which all facts and study point them to be. This way they will never waste a hospital bed and give a chance for others to live. This is similar to how JW people have a letter like allow me to die bleeding! I am not sure how many so called believers are willing to pay this price!

I got the vaccine and it definitely did not come with the mark of the beast. It save lifes, yours and others.

There is no biblical argument for not taking the vaccine. It is more a matter of common sense that many Christians lack because we tend to spiritualize what is to be judged by reason or we apply common sense to what is to be judged spiritually.
Vaccine has been around for over a century and has saved millions of lifes. We enjoy average life spans around 80 years because of vaccine. Where you born 700 years ago you had a 40-60% chance to die of the bulbonic plague.

I do believe Covid vaccination is just a forerunner of what is yet to come. The mark of the beast will carry a lot of seeming benefits and access to a one world system that will exclude and persecute and ultimately kill all who do not participate.

Yes there is the advance of cultural marxism, the great reset, climate nonsense, and all that nonsense going on - so what!
Christ and his overcomers with have the victory. HIS Story - history has already been written.
Remember our dear brother Keith Daniel died of Covid.
We had 4 cases of Covid in our tiny 20+ fellowship, one suffers long term effects, the others recovered so far so good.

"I do believe Covid vaccination is just a forerunner of what is yet to come. The mark of the beast will carry a lot of seeming benefits and access to a one world system that will exclude and persecute and ultimately kill all who do not participate."

We are in agreement here. Since I also believe it is a forerunner to the mark I chose not to take it. What would be the issue here then?

Also to make it fair you should add the concerns about covid-19 and the vaccine to the list below.

"Yes there is the advance of cultural marxism, the great reset, climate nonsense, and all that nonsense going on - so what!"

[We are in agreement here. Since I also believe it is a forerunner to the mark I chose not to take it. What would be the issue here then?]

Very plain and simple, you will bear the risk of getting the virus for yourself and pose a much greater risk to pass it on to someone else who may not survive it.

Another one of those sad discussions...
I didn't want to get involved but I think some have gone a bit too far with their comments:

"It is more a matter of common sense that many Christians lack ...."
You shouldn't make such comments, you don't know our true reasons for our decisions.

Many talk about "facts" without knowing the definition:
"A fact is an occurrence in the real world.[1] The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability””that is whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experience..." (Wikipedia)
We should first go and verify what we call "facts" before we post them. We live in a world with many "alternative facts"

To mention the Mark of the Beast is pure speculation and therefore unhelpful

"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its
shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God". Hebrews 12:2

Very plain and simple, you will bear the risk of getting the virus for yourself and pose a much greater risk to pass it on to someone else who may not survive it.

As a vaccinated person even I have the same risk. The point of this discussion is not about effectiveness of vaccine in containing the virus, it can be debated both ways.

But what we observe in the hospitals today cannot be debated. We are seeing hospitals flooded with Covid patients in critical condition and more than 90% of them are not vaccinated. I myself know a brother in my church who met this fate and then regretted for not taking the vaccine earlier.

When our freedom is affecting others then as a Christian we need to examine it. We cannot turn blind eyes to it. I do not believe Jesus I know will take a stand if it is killing others. He would rather sacrifice his life than to see others suffer as a consequence of his action.

This is a question that needs to be considered and answered by those who do not want the name of our Lord to be blasphemed by their actions.

"Very plain and simple, you will bear the risk of getting the virus for yourself and pose a much greater risk to pass it on to someone else who may not survive it."

You see the problem here right? The implication then is that you took the vaccination out of fear for yourself/others while implying that others have a lack of faith/trust in God.

Making such statements such as "God is in control" and "Who cares about this or that" while at the same being worried about covid-19 is folly.

I come back to my original point. Its about prioritization (for myself anyway). Covid-19 is nothing compared to marxism in all ways. Brutality, death rate, quality of life, etc.

Anyway I'm stepping out of this discussion simply way too many strawman arguments in here to wade through. I've already made my points.

I'll be adding some links later in another thread to address some obvious things that may be mislabeled as conspiracy theories.

This is one of the valid argument placed by the brother who was in the side of vaccine -

If Christians say that they do not want to take the vaccine because they fear it is mark of the beast then why not suffer for it. Those who rejected the mark of the beast according to the Bible, chose to suffer for it. But how many Christians who do not want to listen to scientific facts about vaccine and call it a lie but when they get infected they want the same science to give them the best of health care in western hospitals? Is this not hierocracy? Why not rather deny your right for healthcare and suffer, just like how you deny the advice of the same healthcare about vaccine? Why not rather deny all treatment for Covid if you get infected? Why do you want to flood the hospital beds when you get infected but at the same time deny all the warnings given by the same healthcare?

So the solution suggested by my brother was to carry a self attested letter saying - "I chose to ignore all the healthcare advice about vaccine to keep my faith in Christ, so allow me to die if I get infected by Covid. Do not take me to hospitals". This way you will not be a stumbling block to others and you chose to suffer for your faith!

How many in this forum are willing to sign this letter? IF not are we then not hypocrites?

Anyway I'm stepping out of this discussion simply way too many strawman arguments in here to wade through. I've already made my points.

As far as I see no one here has given any valid answer to the problem we see before us today. The hospitals are flooded with Covid patients who have rejected the vaccine. This is preventing needy people from getting health care that they deserve. In the name of freedom, those who reject vaccine are affecting the very basic need of others. This is a serious issue. Just acting like everything is normal is not an answer.

I still do not see anyone giving a valid reasoning for this situation in our hand.

You wrote;”But what we observe in the hospitals today cannot be debated. We are seeing hospitals flooded with Covid patients in critical condition and more than 90% of them are not vaccinated. I myself know a brother in my church who met this fate and then regretted for not taking the vaccine earlier.”

This ☝🏼is absolutely debatable which is why I brought Israel as an example where the majority that are hospitalized (as of this past weekend) were fully vaccinated- Israel is used as an example because they were one of the First Nations to have more than 2/3 of the population vaccinated and after that had a massive spike in cases resulting in hospitalization... in fact there are several studies currently tracking what appears to be "outbreaks” in countries with high vaccination rates tracking higher than countries with low vaccination rates.

Honestly, at this point, is there anyone any of us knows who is undecided on where they stand on these issues? It seems that the lines are drawn and not many are crossing it 🤷🏽”â™‚️

This ☝🏼is absolutely debatable which is why I brought Israel as an example where the majority that are hospitalized (as of this past weekend) were fully vaccinated- Israel is used as an example because they were one of the First Nations to have more than 2/3 of the population vaccinated and after that had a massive spike in cases resulting in hospitalization... in fact there are several studies currently tracking what appears to be "outbreaks” in countries with high vaccination rates tracking higher than countries with low vaccination rates.

I appreciate your effort to place this argument. I cannot accept Israel as a valid scenario here. Israel population is not even close to the one in USA, so it is a small portion (subset) that we are using to prove a point.

It is true that half of the hospitalized patients are vaccinated in Israel. But researches show that they also have underlying health conditions like lung issues and they are all over 60 years which reduces the effectiveness of vaccines. So we cannot use just 600 hospitalized patients to show a trend.

There are lot of other factors like the age of people in Israel, virus strain there, vaccine type used there etc can be totally different.

The question is if Israel shows the same trend as USA where more than 90% of hospitalized Covid patients are unvaccinated, then are you willing to change your stance on Covid vaccine? If you are not then is it not an excuse you find to justify your stand? Today it is Israel as an excuse tomorrow it can be any other small subset. I am not pointing figures at you, just trying to see if your research is to seek the truth or find an excuse.

Like CS Lewis said, if we search for truth we will find comfort but we are searching for comfort then we find none!

The answer I am expecting is a spiritual one to justify the stand against vaccine not a mere denying of facts before our eyes using a small subset of data.

You wrote / The answer I am expecting is a spiritual one to justify the stand against vaccine not a mere denying of facts before our eyes using a small subset of data. /

I can only offer what I have...

FTR I’m not anti-vaccine nor anti-science however this is not a vaccine like MMR, DTAP etc... in reality it’s not honest to define it as such if we are using the historical model of the scientific definition (I’m aware it was recently changed to accommodate current modeling)
The thing that we appear to be talking past one another is wether the "vaccine” will prevent spread resulting in lower hospitalizations which in turn will open beds for other illnesses or injuries-
You clearly believe it will based on your research and my research has led me to not concur with that assessment,... especially when prophylactics such as Ivermectin, Hdxy chloroquine, Regeneron, etc... has proven more effective in numerous clinical studies, and that’s not to mention that those whom have been infected with the virus and recovered have 6-11 times the immune resistance as those whom are vaccinated.
So (for me) there is no need to take an experimental gene therapy that absolutely no one on planet earth can say what the long term effects are for adults much less children. This fact along with an observable push to censor any information that refutes the "official narrative” by the very people whom are seeking authoritarian control of the world populace (except for the ruling class) is sufficient to at least give pause if not outright abandon any idea of compliance with their godless agenda.

My brother isn’t vaccinated against this particular virus, and tho his entire family contracted the virus, they never took up any beds in any hospitals because they took Ivermectin, ZPak, Zinc, Vitamins D&C - in 24hrs after first dose my brother and his son (mid 20’s) were without symptoms and felt great , while his wife took several more days to recover her breath and even longer to recover her energy. So my point in bringing this up is that there are scientific medical treatments that have been used on humans for decades that treat this virus as, (if not more) effectively in regards to recovery time and negating the need for hospitalization-

This is not to mention the horrible side effects that many have suffered from this "vaccine” ... many whose lives are completely destroyed and yet there is prolific censorship of their stories where in one instance a group on FB that had over 65,000 members was deleted for spreading "medical misinformation” when they were only hoping to show the effects and tell their stories-

There is a massive profit incentive for the companies who produce these "vaccines” and little to none for the use of off-patent treatments - so it’s understandable in a fallen world that greed and lust will factor heavily in their decision making... does this trickle down to local doctors and communities ? I believe in many cases it will tho not in every case as there are still some godly physicians in the world 🙏🏻

To be 100% transparent, I believe that (what we’re witnessing is) demonic principalities have seized opportunity to use this virus as a power grab under the guise of a medical response which is actually far more like a biomedical security state, for the purpose of criminalizing the practice of our faith-

Regarding the concern for other people, there is an infection that is far more deadly than this virus.... sin. That’s the real problem and everything else is just symptoms 🤷🏽”â™‚️

In any case, while we don’t always agree, I do love you dear brother and greatly appreciate your love of Jesus 🙏🏻

We have been into this unknown.... WHERE it came from,.. and WHY, of this virus for quite some time now.

Many, many of our population have had to work during all of this time,..put bread on the table,.. did not have time to see/hear every in’s and out’s in depth, of this darkness that has been brought upon us. Had they been able to take in more information than the cable news , (the doled out news), many may have NOT gotten the vac.

AND WHY are they so bent for EVERYONE to get the vac.?? .. have we not caught them in DECEPTION ?

Should we not consider *deception’, and just be taken in by it ?

............
Remedy:for this virus: suppressed,.. all but banned !!
.............
Abortion: "The right to our on bodies
Vaccination: "Mandating " ( no right to our own body)
.............
Could there be DECEPTIONS ?

Revelation 12:9 (KJV)
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which DECEIIVETH THE WHOLE WORLD : he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
...........
Could there also be a Spiritual side to this COMPLETELY CHANGE as we once knew it,.. in the whole world ? We know The Lord God is ALMIGHTY,.. above all Voices,...He has an seeing eye, and all hearing ears,... knowing all things,..

So WHY?
What have we done , as a Nation to deserve this,... and where will it end?

(Calling Evil good, and good evil),....(in the world)

Saying / thinking ,... throwing His Words to the ground,.. keeping ‘our words’,.. "we won’t have this man to reign over us ",.. (this King in the kingdom of God)”....

I but is there a *Remedy ? ,... only The Lord

..........

2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV)
"If *MY people, which are *called by *my *name, ...

(the Whole Word of God is His Name),...
(called by *grace,His Word drawing,..this working at the same time w/the calling),

.. shall *humble themselves, and *pray, and *seek my face,

(seek to look/see through His eyes, to see how He see’s us),..

and *turn from their wicked ways; Ӣthen will I *hear from heaven, and Ӣwill *forgive their sin, and will Ӣheal their land."

(Our only hope)

..........

Example / definition of Abraham *Faith:,....the kind of faith that Abraham had, was ‘to *hear the Voice of God,
To *Believe in that Voice, and *obey that Voice.
(It was a *God *faith.)

(And not a faith in man’s makings.)

I am not trying to be harsh,.. but this is the truth as I know it.....
Did it need to be said,... I don’t know.

We are after the same goal, aren’t we?🛐
..............❤️
elizabeth

Here is a short clip that sums up the "other” perspective that you are seeking, far more succinctly than I could 🙏🏻

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tud_Julicq0

the man who answers the question is watching the same situation as many of us, albeit with more light and wisdom 🙏🏻

Hopefully Gods not waiting for us to all stop debating this Covid subject before He steps in, and speaks to someone and give them cure for all of us, if so, we're in for a long ride. For the record, yes! I believe it's real, it just seems to me, these debates as believers, it looks to the world like, why are you Christians worrying? where is all this faith you Christians have been talking about for hundreds of years.

I know of no other issue that is dividing Believers like this vaccine is - should you get it or not and why - except perhaps should one accept homosexuals and the like in your brotherhood. Seems like the vaccine issue has displaced the homosexual issue.

For the record, I am 74 YO, had the covid-19 last summer. I recovered from it quite well. Most of the people in our church had it and nobody was hospitalized. Currently, our DIL has covid-19 and the doctor prescribed Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine and she is doing well.

My opinion on this issue would be to checkout the naysayers philosophy and see what they are saying. Those of us who object to it have seen a lot of lying by the government, experts in recent times and have lost trust in their conclusions, see in them a desire to control with goal of depopulating the world.

What will you pro-vaxers say if the opposition will be proven to be correct? And if we are wrong, I still believe our life and times are in the hand of God. It is like Richard Wurmbrand used to say "if God wants you alive persecution cannot kill you." Today we would say "if God wants you alive covid or cancer or....cannot kill you."

Sandra

I still believe our life and times are in the hand of God. It is like Richard Wurmbrand used to say "if God wants you alive persecution cannot kill you." Today we would say "if God wants you alive covid or cancer or....cannot kill you."

This thread is not a Covid or vaccine debate. Those who say that are those who do not care to read the posts but just stay a view! I started this thread and I respect those who are not vaccinated. I have nothing against them. I personally believe their stand has to be respected.

The question is not whether you want to die of Covid or not. You have all rights to live by faith. The problem is others are dying without healthcare because the hospitals are running full of Covid patients and 90% of them are not vaccinated.

I just need a valid answer to this question. How as a Christian do we answer the people who are affected due to lack of healthcare because of our stubborn stand?

This is not a lie, I know Christian nurses and doctors who confirmed that this is a true statement. I have brothers who were denied healthcare in hospitals because beds are full of unvaccinated covide patients.

I love that you quote Richard Wumbrand here. But Richard suffered for his stand against communists. But here we are making others suffer due to the stubborn stand.

I see unvaccinated Christians as Cross without sufferings. Those who deny vaccine give an impression like they are carrying the cross and denying the mark of the beast. But those who rejected the mark in the Bible chose to suffer. But these people are not choosing to suffer. They want full healthcare in hospitals when infected with Covid. They want to full the hospital beds and demand highest possible healthcare. Why not rather choosing to suffer like those who really denied the mark of the beast in the Bible?

"The problem is others are dying without healthcare because the hospitals are running full of Covid patients and 90% of them are not vaccinated."

The other side:

https://www.bitchute.com/video/gigUyK3yLtMU/

The other side USED TO argue, "My body my choice."
Why do we not hear that argument regarding the vaccination!

https://www.bitchute.com/video/gigUyK3yLtMU/

Thank you for sharing. Lot of good thoughts. I always doubted how they reported Covid deaths. It is impossible to have that accurately reported.

Again this only address that Covid is not as deadly as it is projected to be. Which may be true. But it does not still answer my question.

The people whom I mentioned as dying without healthcare are not covid patients. They are normal people who needed medical attention but they could not receive treatment because Hospitals are filled with covid patients who did not take vaccines. This is the true statement.

Why is it difficult for Christians to say, "since I ignored all the healthcare advice on covid vaccine, I will not seek any healthcare attention when I get infected".

Why are we not willing to pay the price for our stand against the vaccine? In fact we expect others to pay the price by flooding the hospitals? This is against everything that Christianity stands for and Christ stood for.

Another issue is the claim that, there are other drugs or outpatient treatment regimen that will not only prevent
covid19 transmission but can also minimize symptoms, prevent hospitalizations, and prevent death.

https://rumble.com/vmuh9n-why-theyre-really-banning-ivermectin.-dr.-jeff-barke-on-america-first-one-o.html

https://rumble.com/vkcljx-july-26-2021.html

https://rumble.com/viaiwf-webinar-with-dr-darrell-demello-highlights.html

This may have been true but is not longer the case, many renown experts including Nobel prize winners have said this vacine is a big maistake, it is driving the variants and causing harm.

lease listen to Dr Mike Yeadon of Pfizer, Dr Peter Mcullough, Dr Kobu Haviv esp.. Prof Christian Perrone, Dr Charles Hoff, Sir Christopher Chope, Geert Vanden Bosshe, Dr Charles ward.

They are all saying from experience this vaccine is harmful, or that we are being mislead, intentionally or otherwise.

Its so important in this age of censorship to listen to alternative voices and not just the main stream narrative and do not be deterred by people who falsely misrepresent these courageous Drs as anti vaxers, or right wing conspiracy nuts,or false claims of misinformation or claims the platforms they speak on are hate speech. Its a very clever way to try to soft censor and even deplatform speakers of truth.

A serious situation warrants a second opinion.

This may have been true but is not longer the case, many renown experts including Nobel prize winners have said this vacine is a big maistake, it is driving the variants and causing harm.

I agree that the vaccine has enough reasons to be doubted. I also believe the whole situation surrounding Covid is fishy because such stuff has not happened in the resent past.

I am not saying everyone should take vaccine, I still believe people should have the freedom of choice.

But my only question is, why the Christians who do not want vaccines are not willing to suffer for their faith (or lack of it). If they think this is a spiritual battle then harm is there to suffer for their stand?

By suffering I mean, they should choose not to be hospitalized.

To me it sounds like Christians in the West are just trying to hold on to their rights rather than anything spiritual in this matter. They are fighting for their rights over their body rather than a spiritual battle. Fighting for rights is not at all Christian way. Jesus gave up his right even to be alive. If it is a spiritual battle they will suffer loss.

"...why the Christians who do not want vaccines are not willing to suffer for their faith (or lack of it). If they think this is a spiritual battle then harm is there to suffer for their stand?"

"By suffering I mean, they should choose not to be hospitalized."

This is nonsensical reasoning!

If I don't want to get a flu shot, and I come down with the flu, why would I not go to the hospital for treatment?

This has nothing to do with me suffering for my faith, or lack thereof.

If I'm in the hospital suffering and in pain, they aren't going to ask if I'd like to sacrifice my spot or not for another. This would be unlawful for a hospital to do so.

I don't need to prove that I have faith by not being treated in the hospital.

If I have faith, that faith that I have does not make me stupid. Willingness to be stupid for my faith, and willingness to suffer for my faith are not one in the same. You must differentiate between the two, you are taking this way out of kilter. 🙃

Let him who is stupid be stupid still, and let him who is unvaccinated and sick go to the hospital still.

The COVID mRNA vaccines are the first vaccines to use the gene-editing technology known as CRISPR.

CRISPR documentary:
https://youtu.be/vcVutiaOMs0

CRISPR is a very fascinating phenomenon in medical therapeutics that needs a very strict ethical policy on its use. The way covid19 vaccine is being deployed and promoted (or mandated) needs better safety and sanity checkpoints.

https://rumble.com/vmy8s1-the-grant-cardone-and-robert-malone-video-removed-from-youtube.html

Dr. Robert Malone is the 'inventor' of mrna vaccine/gene therapy.