Hell

"And what is wrong with the old method of scaring the ungodly with
a sermon on hell?" - Vance Havner

Buddhism also teaches hell (naraka) which is fearfully and graphically presented.

My Question:
If the fear of hell is the driving force, why would a person become a Christian and not a Buddhist to escape hell?

brother Greg,

Nothing in Buddism truly will help a person escape death and hell. Only Christianity will. Jesus Christ rose from the dead, trampling death with death. His resurrection shows He is the only one that has triumphed over death and the grave and gives us hope of resurrection.

The Son of God manifested in this world is the only true hope and saving way. This is the Gospel of God, the good news that death has been defeated, Christ is risen, Hallelujah! Our sin debt has been paid.

Amen.

The answer is GRACE. The difference is the GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The bad news is that nothing good dwells in anyone. No one can truly do good because the principle of evil is in everyone who wants to do good.

All our self-righteous deeds are like a filthy garment to God (Isa. 64:6).

The Gospel we preach is the GOOD NEWS of GRACE.

"And what is wrong with the old method of scaring the ungodly with a sermon on hell?" - Vance Havner

This:

All men and women know there is a need for justification before God in some sense. They all yearn for this and are scared of death and punishment for sin.

Surely we are not commissioned to bring bad news to further scare scared people.

Good News (Gospel) give scared people comfort and hope!

Isa. 40:1 ”“
"Comfort, comfort My people,” says your God.

Isa. 49:13 ”“
Shout for joy, O heavens!
And rejoice, O earth!
Break forth into joyful shouting, O mountains!
For the LORD has comforted His people
And will have compassion on His afflicted.

Isa. 49:10 ”“
They will not hunger or thirst,
Nor will the scorching heat or sun strike them down;
For He who has compassion on them will lead them
And will guide them to springs of water.

Rom. 10:12-13 ”“
……… the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

This is the GOOD NEWS (Gospel) from God!

Blessings

Obedience arising from fear of punishment is always begrudged obedience.

If we do not love the King, whatever begrudged obedience we may render is a sham. It is not salvation.

"And what is wrong with the old method of scaring the ungodly with a sermon on hell?"
We shouldn't use "methods" we should preach from the Word of God and the full council of God.

"Buddhism also teaches hell..." But that is a false religion and what they are teaching is completely irrelevant. We need to compare Scripture with Scripture.
For the Apostle Paul the Gospel was all that mattered, he preached Christ.

brother Greg,

Jesus scared people.

But how can anyone be scared of a loving and compassionate Saviour who healed the sick, changed water into wine, fed the hungry, calmed the storm and died to save us?

The words of Jesus were words of kindness, words of hope, words of life.

Luke 4:18-19 ”“
"The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.”

Matt. 11:28 ”“
"Come to Me, all who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.”

John 10:10 ”“
The thief comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life, and have it in abundance [to the full, till it overflows].

There was no fear. There was hope.

Mark 5:27-28 ”“
When she heard about Jesus, she came behind Him in the crowd and touched His garment. For she said, "If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well.”

He preached more on hell than heaven.

How can this be when the Lord Jesus opened heaven that had been closed to us?

Gen. 3:24 ”“
So He drove out the man and stationed cherubim on the east side of the Garden of Eden, along with a whirling sword of flame to guard the way to the tree of life.

John 1:51 ”“
And He said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see the heavens opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

The gospel is not good news unless there is bad news first.

Of course.

The bad news is already known in the million tears and endless sorrow and meaningless lives of people everywhere in the world.

The bad news already fills every page of the tragic history of mankind

What value is there in giving a starving man stone when he needs bread?

Scaring the ungodly with a sermon on hell changes nothing.

Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ (Rom. 10:17)!

Only the feet of those that bring good news of good things are beautiful (Rom. 10:15)!

Blessings

Hi Markus,

How would you persuade a Buddhist that his beliefs are false?

These are some Buddhist beliefs:

THE EIGHTFOLD PATH

1. Right understanding and viewpoint (based on the Four Noble Truths).

2. Right values and attitude (compassion rather than selfishness).

3. Right speech (don't tell lies, avoid harsh, abusive speech, avoid gossip).

4. Right action (help others, live honestly, don't harm living things, take care of the environment).

5. Right work (do something useful, avoid jobs which harm others).

6. Right effort (encourage good, helpful thoughts, discourage unwholesome destructive thoughts).

7. Right mindfulness (be aware of what you feel, think and do).

8. Right meditation (calm mind, practice meditation which leads to nirvana).

Blessings

"My Question:
If the fear of hell is the driving force, why would a person become a Christian and not a Buddhist to escape hell?"

If a person truly fears hell then they would never settle for Buddhism as it offers no escape... simply dying to the world is not enough as many ascetics find out, rather being born again into Christ’s Kingdom is the victory and if we abide in Him by faith we will receive a share in His inheritance, namely His eternal indestructible life.

The "god of this world” is satan and in this "world” buddhism is "good” like the good side of the wrong tree... which is to say that tho buddhism has "scriptures” and they don’t promote evil but do promote good, there is still the issue of sin and nothing in any system can touch that, nothing but the blood of Jesus, so since the fruit of sin is death (issue of your question) and buddhism can’t address the root, any person who honestly feared hell would, if given the choice, choose the Risen King. Who not only defeated sin and death... but the world and the flesh and the curse of the law. And yes it is by His divine influence (grace) upon the hearts of men and as many take heed and do obey, these are His children.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent"

" My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.”

brother Greg,

The bad news is worse then this………

"For who has despised the day of small things?” ”“ Zech. 4:10.

It is through the trials and sufferings of our present lives that God is working toward His great eternal purpose.

It is through the hopelessness and anguish of the situations in our present lives that we learn to abandon self-sufficiency and reach out for the all-sufficiency of God.

Only the seed of the Word of Christ sown in the heart can sprout and grow into the Tree of Faith that will flourish by the River of Life and produce fruits to the glory of God.

I return to this quote:

"And what is wrong with the old method of scaring the ungodly with a sermon on hell?" - Vance Havner

Only the desire for God can expel the desire for the world and sin. And only a sermon that vastly magnifies the super-abounding goodness and love of God and the greatness of our salvation and unfathomable riches in Christ and the matchless beauty of God’s holiness can displace the love of the world and of sin in the human heart and turn the human heart to desire God.

How successful has been this old method of scaring the ungodly with a sermon on hell?

Blessings

Words of Jesus-

If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. where "’the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.

Words of Jesus-

You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Words of Jesus-

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

Words of Jesus-

You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Words of Jesus-

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.

Words of Jesus-

"What have you gained if you gain the whole world and lose your soul? What will you give in exchange for your soul?

Something occurred to me that may be of help in understanding why the preaching and warning of the horrific reality of hell is absolutely necessary.

You wrote; " Of course.

The bad news is already known in the million tears and endless sorrow and meaningless lives of people everywhere in the world.

The bad news already fills every page of the tragic history of mankind

What value is there in giving a starving man stone when he needs bread?

Scaring the ungodly with a sermon on hell changes nothing.”

For an unregenerate mind to even begin to comprehend much less behold Christ Jesus, there must first be a real and sincere need that the unregenerate mind is seeking to remedy to no avail, hence the need for God.
For the religious mind, there is already a belief in God complete with experiences, yet they haven’t had a personal revelation of Jesus as the Christ, and so your quote above would be more applicable to this group.

But for the first group this is true,
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not"

and not everyone who is religious minded will accept Christ on His terms....
ie; the rich young ruler

So for he also, hell should be preached as clearly this man doesn’t fit into the category described in your quote... he was living his best life and when Jesus put His finger on the source of this mans confidence, he withered going away sad. So here this religious minded man sought and found Jesus for salvation, yet he went away sad not having the ability to see clearly that Jesus was willing to deliver him but he was not willing because he was in darkness and could not comprehend the value of what Jesus offered vs his personal wealth and integrity.
In this case, the effectual preaching of hell to this individual can surely help him to reevaluate the true value of his personal wealth and integrity when contrasted against the inevitability of eternal hell. This fact is purposefully used to startle someone in hopes of them being able to see the utter futility in placing confidence in earthly things.
For the unregenerate mind, hell is effective in creating a "backdrop” of inevitability that requires a remedy, which makes them more open to the grace of God :)

The effectual preaching on the reality of the inevitability of hell is absolutely necessary and sorely lacking in the church for quite some time, save a few.
Our enemy, satan, has made the preaching of hell so taboo so as to generally be spoken of as though it were an ancient myth and treated with less regard than an earthly prison sentence. No one I know has seriously contemplated the horrific reality of hearing, "depart from me, I never knew you”, much less the inevitability of hell for countless people. The goats fully believed they were the "good ones” and were surely saved but they found out different. The effectual preaching of hell can scare a stubborn goat into reconsidering the mercy of God in that "while we were yet sinners and enemies of God, Christ died for us” in a whole new light 💡 🙏🏻

it’s gonna take a preacher filled to the brim to bear witness to the horrors of an inevitable hell, it would be a clear display of Gods love and mercy to warn people of the eternal reality apart from Christ.

Hi Steve,

These words of Jesus stand.

How do you yourself measure up?

These are the words Jesus:

John 15:2 ”“ "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away………”.

There were some scribes and Pharisees who brought a woman caught in adultery to Jesus and said to Him, "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?”

These were the words of Jesus to the accusers:

"He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

These were the words of Jesus to the sinner:

"I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on do not sin any longer.”

(John 8:3-11)

2 Cor. 5:21 ”“
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Hi Fletcher,

This is the Holy Spirit’s work:

John 16:8-9 ”“
"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin…………; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

This is work for Christ’s disciples:

Acts 1:8 ”“
"……but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be ***** My witnesses ***** both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

Mark 16:15 ”“
And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach ***** the gospel (GOOD News) ***** to all creation.”

That is only partially true as there are many more verses like ;
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

For you to have such command of scripture and yet consistently ignore is to deceive yourself and will be held to account for willful ignorance-
So I plea with you, please dear sister, reconsider your position and take the whole council of the word, dividing it rightly 🙏🏻

Jesus Himself went about not telling people how much He loved them but did go about preaching hell and judgement more than anything else... these are the facts - are you suggesting Jesus wasn’t loving or His preaching was misguided and unprofitable??

Luke 9:53-56 ”“

But they did not receive Him.....

When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?”

But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”

"HERE IS LOVE”

Hymn of the Welsh Revival

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZJmTVdDyLY&t=14s

LYRICS:

Here is love, vast as the ocean,
Loving-kindness as the flood,
When the Prince of Life, our Ransom,
Shed for us His precious blood.
Who His love will not remember?
Who can cease to sing His praise?
He can never be forgotten,
Throughout heav’n’s eternal days.

On the mount of crucifixion,
Fountains opened deep and wide;
Through the floodgates of God’s mercy
Flowed a vast and gracious tide.
Grace and love, like mighty rivers,
Poured incessant from above,
And heav’n’s peace and perfect justice
Kissed a guilty world in love.

Let me, all Thy love accepting,
Love Thee, ever all my days;
Let me seek Thy kingdom only,
And my life be to Thy praise;
Thou alone shalt be my glory,
Nothing in the world I see;
Thou hast cleansed and sanctified me,
Thou Thyself hast set me free.

In Thy truth Thou dost direct me
By Thy Spirit through Thy Word;
And Thy grace my need is meeting,
As I trust in Thee, my Lord.
Of Thy fullness Thou art pouring
Thy great love and pow’r on me,
Without measure, full and boundless,
Drawing out my heart to Thee.

--------------------

Eph. 3:17-19 ”“
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

Zech. 4:6 ”“

"Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,” says the LORD of hosts.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom." Proverbs 9:10

Fear of going to sleep for eternity? Fear of not "living your best life now"?

If there is no eternal hell, God cannot be just and sinful men have nothing to fear.

The fear of the Lord will again find its place in all human hearts NOT by anyone scaring the ungodly with a sermon on hell BUT by the new and everlasting covenant of grace. God Himself will put the fear of Him in our hearts so that we will not turn away from Him.

Jer. 32:40 --
"I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.”

"Knowing therefore the terror or the Lord, we persuade men." 2 Corinthians 5:11

"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:28,29

"But I will warn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, who after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him!" Luke 12:5

I agree, I can't scare anyone with a sermon about hell. The Holy Spirit will drive this truth home to them when He convicts them of sin. It is the most loving thing we can do to tell sinners the law of God and warn them of the dire consequences of their rebellion.

And although the law and consequences of sin MUST be made clear to sinners, we are told by Jude: "And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." Jude 22

If I see someone with a tender conscience concerned about sin (a rare thing these days!) I won't thunder the law at them; I will tell them about the love of a Savior who died for them.

I won't thunder the law at them; I will tell them about the love of a Savior who died for them.

That is, you will preach Good News and not Bad News?

There is power in prayer.

REVIVAL IN THE HEBRIDES
BY DUNCAN CAMPBELL

https://www.rockingham.org.au/about/blog/item/222-revival-in-the-hebrides.html

Note: This is a transcript of a taped message on the Hebrides Revival which was preached by Duncan Campbell in 1968. The blanked words are those that were difficult to distinguish on the tape.

There are two things that I would like to say in speaking about the revival in the Hebrides. First, I would like to make it perfectly clear that I did not bring revival to the Hebrides. It has grieved me beyond words to hear people talk and write about the man who brought revival to the Hebrides. My dear people, I didn't do that. Revival was there before I ever set foot on the island. It began in a gracious awareness of God sweeping through the parish of Barvas.

Then I would like to make it perfectly clear what I understand of revival. When I speak of revival, I am not thinking of high-pressure evangelism. I am not thinking of crusades or of special efforts convened and organized by man. That is not in my mind at all. Revival is something altogether different from evangelism on its highest level. Revival is a moving of God in the community and suddenly the community becomes God conscious before a word is said by any man representing any special effort.

Now I am sure that you will be interested to know how, in November 1949, this gracious movement began on the island of Lewis. Two old women, one of them 84 years of age and the other 82-one of them stone blind, were greatly burdened because of the appalling state of their own parish. It was true that not a single young person attended public worship. Not a single young man or young woman went to the church. They spent their day perhaps reading or walking but the church was left out of the picture. And those two women were greatly concerned and they made it a special matter of prayer.

A verse gripped them: "I will pour water on him that is thirsty and floods upon the dry ground." They were so burdened that both of them decided to spend so much time in prayer twice a week. On Tuesday they got on their knees at 10 o'clock in the evening and remained on their knees until 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning--two old women in a very humble cottage.

One night, one of the sisters had a vision. Now remember, in revival, God works in wonderful ways. A vision came to one of them, and in the vision she saw the church of her fathers crowded with young people. Packed to the doors, and a strange minister standing in the pulpit. And she was so impressed by the vision that she sent for the parish minister. And of course he knowing the two sisters, knowing that they were two women who knew God in a wonderful way, he responded to their invitation and called at the cottage.

That morning, one of the sisters said to the minister, "You must do something about it. And I would suggest that you call your office bearers together and that you spend with us at least two nights in prayer in the week. Tuesday and Friday if you gather your elders together, you can meet in a barn-a farming community, you can meet in a barn-and as you pray there, we will pray here. Well, that was what happened, the minister called his office bearers together and seven of them met in a barn to pray on Tuesday and on Friday. And the two old women got on their knees and prayed with them.

Well that continued for some weeks--indeed, I believe almost a month and a half. Until one night; now this is what I am anxious for you to get a hold of--one night they were kneeling there in the barn, pleading this promise, "I will pour water on him that is thirsty, floods upon the dry ground" when one young man, a deacon in the church, got up and read Psalm 24. "Who shall ascend the hill of God? Who shall stand in His holy place? He that has clean hands and a pure heart who has not lifted up his soul unto vanity or sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing (not a blessing, but the blessing) of the Lord." And then that young man closed his Bible. And looking down at the minister and the other office bearers, he said this-maybe crude words, but perhaps not so crude in our Gaelic language-he said, "It seems to me to be so much humbug to be praying as we are praying, to be waiting as we are waiting, if we ourselves are not rightly related to God." And then he lifted his two hands-and I'm telling you just as the minister told me it happened-he lifted his two hands and prayed, "God, are my hands clean? Is my heart pure? " But he got no further. That young man fell to his knees and then fell into a trance. Now don't ask me to explain this because I can't. He fell into a trance and is now lying on the floor of the barn. And in the words of the minister, at that moment, he and his other office bearers were gripped by the conviction that a God-sent revival must ever be related to holiness, must ever be related to Godliness. Are my hands clean? Is my heart pure? The man that God will trust with revival-that was the conviction.

When that happened in the barn, the power of God swept into the parish. And an awareness of God gripped the community such as hadn't been known for over 100 years. An awareness of God-that's revival, that's revival. And on the following day, the looms were silent, little work was done on the farms as men and women gave themselves to thinking on eternal things gripped by eternal realities.

Now, I wasn't on the island when that happened. But, again, one of the sisters sent for the minister. And she said to him, "I think you ought to invite someone to the parish. I cannot give a name, but God must have someone in His mind for we saw a strange man in the pulpit, and that man must be somewhere." Well, the minister that week was going to one of our great conventions in Scotland. At that convention he met a young man who was a student in college and knowing that this young man was a God-fearing man, a man with a message, he invited him to the island. "Won't you come for 10 days-a 10-day special effort? We have had so many of them over the past couple of years, but we feel that something is happening in the parish and we would like you to attend."

This minister said, "No, I don't feel that I am the man, but quite recently there has been a very remarkable move in Glasgow under the ministry of a man by the name of Campbell. I would suggest that you send for him." Now at that time I was in a college in Edinburgh. It wasn't very easy for me to leave but it was decided that I should go for 10 days. I was on the island within 10 days.

I shall never forget the night that I arrived at the piers in the mail steamer. I was standing in the presence of the minister whom I had never seen and two of his elders that I never knew. The minister turned to me and said, "I know Mr. Campbell that you are very tired-you have been traveling all day by train to begin with and then by steamer. And I am sure that you are ready for your supper and ready for your bed. But I wonder if you would be prepared to address a meeting in the parish church at 9 o'clock tonight on our way home. It will be a short meeting and then we will make for the manse and you will get your supper and your bed and rest until tomorrow evening." Well, it will interest you to know that I never got that supper.

We got to the church about quarter to nine to find about 300 people gathered. I would say about 300 people. And I gave an address. Nothing really happened during the service. It was a good meeting. A sense of God, a consciousness of His Spirit moving but nothing beyond that. So I pronounced the benediction and we were leaving the church I would say about a quarter to eleven.

Just as I am walking down the aisle, along with this young deacon who read the Psalm in the barn. He suddenly stood in the aisle and looking up to the heavens he said, "God, You can't fail us. God, You can't fail us. You promised to pour water on the thirsty and floods upon the dry ground-God, You can't fail us!"

Soon He is on his knees in the aisle and he is still praying and then he falls into a trance again. Just then the door opened--it is now eleven o'clock. The door of the church opens and the local blacksmith comes back into the church and says, "Mr. Campbell, something wonderful has happened. Oh, we were praying that God would pour water on the thirsty and floods upon the dry ground and listen, He's done it! He's done it!"

When I went to the door of the church I saw a congregation of approximately 600 people. Six hundred people--where had they come from? What had happened? I believe that that very night God swept in Pentecostal power-the power of the Holy Ghost. And what happened in the early days of the apostles was happening now in the parish of Barvas.

Over 100 young people were at the dance in the parish hall and they weren't thinking of God or eternity. God was not in all of their thoughts. They were there to have a good night when suddenly the power of God fell upon the dance. The music ceased and in a matter of minutes, the hall was empty. They fled from the hall as a man fleeing from a plague. And they made for the church. They are now standing outside. Oh, yes--they saw lights in the church. That was a house of God and they were going to it and they went. Men and women who had gone to bed rose, dressed, and made for the church. Nothing in the way of publicity--no mention of a special effort except and intonation from the pulpit on Sabbath that a certain man was going to be conducting a series of meetings in the parish covering 10 days. But God took the situation in hand--oh, He became His own publicity agent. A hunger and a thirst gripped the people. 600 of them now are at the church standing outside.

This dear man, the blacksmith, turned to me and said, "I think that we should sing a psalm." And they sang and they sang and they sang verse after verse. Oh, what singing! What singing! And then the doors were opened and the congregation flocked back into the church.

Now the church is crowded--a church to seat over 800 is now packed to capacity. It is now going on towards midnight. I managed to make my way through the crowd along the aisle toward the pulpit. I found a young woman, a teacher in the grammar school, lying prostrate on the floor of the pulpit praying, "Oh, God, is there mercy for me? Oh, God, is there mercy for me? " She was one of those at the dance. But she is now lying on the floor of the pulpit crying to God for mercy.

That meeting continued until 4 o'clock in the morning. I couldn't tell you how many were saved that night but of this I am sure and certain that at least 5 young men who were saved in that church that night are today ministers in the church of Scotland having gone through university and college.

At 4 o'clock, we decided to make for the manse. Of course, you understand, we make no appeals--you never need to make an appeal or an altar call in revival. Why, the roadside becomes an altar. We just leave men and women to make their way to God themselves--after all, that is the right way. God can look after His own. Oh, God can look after His own! And when God takes a situation in hand, I tell you He does a better work. He does a better work.

So we left them there, and just as I was leaving the church, a young man came to me and said, "Mr. Campbell, I would like you to go to the police station." I said, "The police station? What's wrong?" "Oh," he said, "There's nothing wrong but there must be at least 400 people gathered around the police station just now."

Now the sergeant there was a God-fearing man. He was in the meeting. But people knew that this was a house that feared God. And next to the police station was the cottage in which the two old women lived. I believe that that had something to do with the magnet, the power that drew men. There was a coach load at that meeting. A coach load had come over 12 miles to be there. Now if anyone would ask them today, why? How did it happen? Who arranged it? They couldn't tell you. But they found themselves grouping together and someone saying, "What about going to Barvas? I don't know, but I have a hunger in my heart to go there." I can't explain it; they couldn't explain it, but God had the situation in hand.

This is revival dear people! This is a sovereign act of God! This is the moving of God's Spirit, I believe in answer to the prevailing prayer of men and women who believed that God was a covenant-keeping God but must be true to His covenant engagement.

I went along. I went along to that meeting. As I am walking along that country road-we had to walk about a mile-I heard someone praying by the roadside. I could hear this man crying to God for mercy. I went over and there were four young men on their knees at the roadside. Yes, they were at the dance but they are now there crying to God for mercy. One of them was under the influence of drink, but a young man he wasn't 20 years of age. But that night God saved him and he is today the parish minister, university trained, college trained, a man of God. Converted in the revival with eleven of his office bearers. A wonderful congregation. Well, he was saved that night.

Now when I got to the police station, I saw something that will live with me as long as I live. I didn't preach--there was no need of preaching. We didn't even sing. The people are crying to God for mercy. Oh, the confessions that were made! There was one old man crying out, "Oh, God, hell is too good for me! Hell is too good for me!" This is Holy Ghost conviction! Now mind you, that was on the very first night of a mighty demonstration that shook the island. Oh, let me say again, that wasn't the beginning of revival--revival began in a prayer barter meeting. Revival began in an awareness of God. Revival began when the Holy Ghost began to grip men and that was how it began.

And, of course, after that we were at it night and day-churches crowded. A messenger would come--I remember one night it was after 3 o'clock in the morning--a messenger came to say that the churches were crowded in another parish 15 miles away. Crowded at that hour in the morning. And we went to this parish minister along with several other ministers who I thank God for the ministers of Lewis--how they responded to the call of God. How they threw themselves into the effort. And God blessed them for it. We went, and I found myself preaching in a large church-a church that would seat 1,000--and the Spirit of God was moving, oh, moving in a mighty way! I could see them falling, falling on their knees. I could hear them crying to God for mercy. I could hear those outside praying. And that continued for, I'm sure, two hours. And then as we were leaving the church, someone came to me to tell me that a very large number of people had gathered on a field--they could not get into the church. They couldn't get into any of the churches. And they had gathered in a field. Along with the other ministers I decided to go to the field. And here I saw this enormous crowd standing there as though gripped by a power that they could not explain. But the interesting thing about that meeting was a sight that I saw. The headmaster of a secondary school in the parish is lying on his face on the ground crying to God for mercy. Oh, deeply convicted of his desperate need and on either side of them, two young girls, I would say about 16 years of age-two on each side of him. And they keep saying to the headmaster, "Master, Jesus that saved us last night in Barvas can save you in ________ tonight. Jesus that saved us last night in Barvas can save you tonight." It is true that when man comes into vital relationship with Jesus Christ, his supreme desire is to win others. To win others! And they were there that night to win their master, and they won him. Oh, God swept into his life, I believe in answer to the prayer of four young girls, 16 years of age who had a burden--who had a burden.

Now that was how the revival began and that is how it continued to begin with for five weeks. The first wave of the revival continued for five weeks and then there was a lull-perhaps a lull of about a week. Oh, the churches are still crowded, people are still seeking after God, and prayer meetings are being held all over the parishes. It was the custom there that those who found the Savior at night would be at prayer meeting at noonday. A prayer meeting met everyday and noonday. At that time all worked stopped for two hours--looms are silent. For two hours work stopped in the fields, and men gathered for prayer. And it was then that you got to know those who had found the Savior on the previous night. You didn't need to make an appeal. They made their way to the prayer meeting to praise God for His salvation.

That continued for almost 3 years. Until the whole of the island was swept by the mighty power of God. I couldn't tell you how many--I never checked the number. I was afraid to do that always remembering what David did. I left the records with God. But this I know, that at least 75% of those who were born again during the revival were born again before they came near a church. Before they had any word from me or any of the other ministers. I can think just now of a certain village--the village of Weaver--and there was a row of cottages by the roadside. There were seven of them altogether. And in every cottage a loom and a weaver. One morning, just as the men were being called for breakfast, it was discovered that the seven of them were lying prostrate behind their looms. Lying on their faces behind their looms and all of them in a trance. Now I can't explain this. But of this I am certain that this was of God because the seven men were saved that day. Now, I should say six of them were saved that day, one of them on the following day. But they came to understand that something supernatural had taken possession of them. An awareness for God gripped them, and a hunger possessed them and they cried out to God for mercy. And God swept in. I was visiting them recently--I happened to be up in the Hebrides--and what a joy it was to listen to them tell again of that wonderful experience when God swept into the seven houses. My dear people, that's revival. I mean, it is so different from our special efforts. So apart altogether from man's best endeavor. God is in the middle and miracles happen.

Now perhaps I should go into some of the features that characterized this remarkable movement. Well, already I have mentioned to you that men were found in trances. Perhaps I should say this that in the Lewis revival we never saw anybody healed, that wasn't a feature of it. We never heard anybody speaking in tongues--in a strange language. Personally, I never heard anybody speak in tongues until a year or two ago. And that was in England. We knew nothing whatsoever about such manifestations. Don't misunderstand me--I believe in every gift mentioned in the word of God but it wasn't God's plan or purpose that we should be visited in that way and we weren't. But we saw strange manifestations. I think just now of a certain island. Up until then God hadn't moved on this island--one of the smaller islands, perhaps an island of 600 souls. And I was asked to go to this island to officiate at a communion. Now, a communion in Lewis is just like one of your conventions. They begin with a prayer meeting on Wednesday night and then on Thursday, the first day when schools are closed, shops are closed, no work is done, it's just like another Sabbath. That's Thursday. Friday, then, is testimony day when men give their testimonies. They ask the women to be silent. You'll never hear a woman give her testimony at such meetings. But the men speak; however, I am glad to say that many of the dear women got glorious liberty during the revival and they are meeting for prayers and praying with the men today. That is a transformation that has taken place subsequent to the revival.

But I am on this island, and I felt the going fearfully hard. Oh, it was difficult to preach--you felt your very words coming back and hitting you. And I was a bit distressed. I turned to one of the other ministers and I said, "Now don't you think that we should send for the praying men of Barvas?" Let me say in passing that the praying men of Barvas were praying for us just now, there were at least five of them in this part of God's vineyard who promised to do that and I believe they were keeping to their promise. However, I sent for them and in the conversation that I had with this businessman, one of the praying men, I said, "If it is at all possible will you bring little Donald Mc_____." Now I will tell you later how Donald came to know the Lord. But bring him.

Now Donald had a remarkable experience on the hillside a fortnight after he was born again. And God came upon him--the Holy Ghost came upon him. He had a mighty baptism. I hope you believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost as a distinct experience. You may disagree, but I believe in it. I don't think that I am preaching one set of doctrine that insists upon gifts. I am not thinking of that at all because I believe that the baptism of the Holy Ghost in its final analysis is just the revelation of Jesus. It is Jesus becoming real-wonderful, powerful, and dynamic in my life. And He expressing Himself through my personality. That is the baptism of the Holy Ghost that I believe in. Not that I disbelieve in anything. Of course I don't. Some of my dearest friends are among those who exercise the gifts. But that, by the way, this young fellow had such a baptism of God among the heather, that he forgot about coming home and a search party had to be sent out to find him in the hills. And they found him on his face among the heather repeating over and over, "Oh, Jesus, I love You. Oh, Jesus I love You." And wasn't he near to Jesus if he spoke like that? He was, of course.

Well, I asked the men to bring little Donald with them. And now we are in the service in the church. And I am preaching from the text, "Who is this that cometh from Edom . . . this that is glorious in his apparel traveling in the greatness of his strength. I that speak in righteousness am mighty to save" that was the text. But oh, I tell you, the going was hard. The going was hard. I looked down and I saw little Donald sitting there in the seat. And I saw that his head was bowed and I saw that the floor was wet with his tears. And I said to myself, "Well, now, there is a young lad nearer to God that you or I. Oh, there is a young lad who is in touch with God." And I stopped preaching. And looking down at this young lad, I said, "Donald, I believe God would have you lead us in prayer. " It was right in the midst of my address. And that young lad stood to his feet.

Now that morning at family worship they were reading Rev 4 where John has the vision of the open door. "I saw a door opened in heaven." And as that young man stood, that vision came before him. And this is what he said in his prayers. "God, I seem to be gazing in through the open door. And I seem to see the Lamb standing in the midst of the Throne. He has the keys of death and of hell at his girdle(?)." Then he stopped and began to weep. And for a minute or so he wept and he wept. Oh, the brokenness. And when he was able to control himself, he lifted his eyes towards the heavens and he cried out, "God, there is power there-let it loose! Let it loose!" And suddenly, the power of God fell upon the congregation. Of course in Lewis and in other islands of the Hebrides, they stand to pray, they sit to sing. And now, one side of the church threw their hands up like this. Threw their heads back and you would almost declare that they were in an epileptic fit, but they were not. Oh, I can't explain it. And the other side they slumped on top of each other. But God, the Holy Ghost moved. Those who had their hands like this stayed that way for two hours. Now you try to remain like that with your hands up for a few minutes and you will find it hard-but you would break their hands before you could take them down. Now, I can't explain it-this is what happened.

But the most remarkable thing that night was what took place in a village seven miles away from the church. There wasn't a single person from that village in the church. Not one single person. Seven miles away, it was a while away certainly but while Donald Mc_____ was praying, the power of God swept through __________, that's the name of the village. Swept through the village and I know it to be a fact that there wasn't a single house in the village that hadn't a soul saved in it. Not a single house in the village.

A schoolmaster that night looking over his papers 15 miles away from this island on the mainland suddenly was gripped by the fear of God. And he said to his wife, "Wife, I don't know what's drawing me to Barvas, but I must go." His wife said, "But it's nearly 10 o'clock and you're thinking of going to Barvas. I know what's on your mind, I know that you are going out to drink and you are not leaving this house tonight!" That was what she said to him--he was a hard drinker. And he said to his wife, "I may be mistaken, oh, I maybe mistaken, but if I know anything at all about my own heart and mind, I think I say to you now that drink will never touch my lips again." And she said to him, "Well, John, if that's your mind, then go to Barvas." And he got someone to take him to the ferry, someone to ferry him across, and I was conducting a meeting in a farmhouse at midnight and this schoolmaster came to the door and they made room for him and in a matter of minutes he was praising God for salvation. Now that's miracle. I mean you cannot explain it in any other way. A father, a mother and two daughters and a son were saved that night in this village but one of the daughters who was in the medical profession was in London. She was in London. A very clever girl. She is walking down Oxford Street after leaving a patient and she is suddenly arrested by the power of God. She went into a closet(?) and cried to God for mercy and God saved her there-the whole family saved! My dear people, these are facts. And I tell you of them to honor God. That girls is today the wife of a Baptist minister in Tasmania. He was for a fortnight in the Hebrides at that time and the day came when he asked her hand in marriage and they married and both of them in Tasmania today.

These are some of the remarkable movings of God. That very night, a captain in the clan line was saved sailing down M_______ at that very hour. The Spirit of God laid hold of him in his cabin. The Spirit of God moved upon lobster fishermen in the sound--they had to leave their boats and their creels and make for the island. By the morning they were saved. Oh, wouldn't it be wonderful if we saw God move in that way in this community? God could do it.

I think one of the most outstanding things that happened I believe will go down in history as long as revival is mentioned was in the parish of Arnot(?). Now, I regret to say that here I was bitterly opposed by a certain section of the Christian church. Opposed by ministers who were born-again without question. They were God-fearing men, but for some reason or other they came to believe that I wasn't sound in my doctrine because I preached the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I proclaimed a Savior who could deliver from sin. Glorious emancipation! And they got it into their minds that I was teaching absolute perfection or sinless perfection--a thing that I never did, nor could I ever believe in. Of course, I believe in conditional perfection: "If we walk in the light as he is in the light we fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ, God's son cleanses us from all sin. " That is scriptural perfection! That is based on obedience--on obedience. But the dear men somehow believed--of course not one of them ever listened to me-they listened to stories brought to them. And of course if was arranged that there was a special effort to be made to oppose me. To oppose me. And several ministers were brought from the mainland to this particular parish to conduct mission meetings opposing Campbell and his revival.

Well, they came, and they were so successful in their opposition that very few people from this particular community came near any of my meetings. It is true that the church was crowded, it is true that people were standing outside that couldn't get in, but these were people who came from neighboring parishes. Brought by coaches, brought by cars and what have you-but there were very few from this particular village. So one night one of the elders came to me and said, "Mr. Campbell, there is only one thing that we can do. We must give ourselves to prayer-give ourselves to prayer. Prayer changes things." Well you know I am very willing for that. I said, "Where will we meet?" "Oh," he said, "There is a farmer and he is very willing to place his farmhouse at our disposal." It was winter and the church was cold. There was no heating in it. The people believe in a crowded church to provide its own heat. But hear we wanted a warmer spot, and the farmer was approached. Now the farmer wasn't a Christian nor his wife but they were God-fearing. Now let me explain that you can be God-fearing and know nothing of salvation. There are thousands of people in upper Scotland who are God-fearing. They have family worship morning and evening-they would never dream of going out to work in the morning without reading a chapter of the Bible and getting down on their knees to ask God to have mercy upon them and the family. The man may have been under the influence the night before-he may not darken the door of the church, but he would not dream of going out to work without reading the Bible. That is why I believe that the average unsaved person in the Hebrides has a far greater knowledge of the Word of God than the average Christian anywhere else. I think I can say that. It is because of this custom: family worship.

This man had that. He wasn't a Christian, but a God-fearing man, so we gathered at his house. I would say there were about 30 of us including five ministers of the church of Scotland. Men who had burdens-longings to see God move in revival. And we were praying and oh, the going was hard. At least I felt it hard. It came to between 12 or 1 o'clock in the morning when I turned again to this blacksmith whom I have already referred to. Oh, he was a prince in the parish. And I said to him, "John, I feel that God would have me to call upon you to pray." Up until then he was silent. And that dear man began-he must have prayed for about a half an hour. When he paused for a second or so and then looking up towards the heavens he cried, "God, do You know that Your honor is at stake? Do You know that Your honor is at stake? You promised to pour water on the thirsty and floods on the dry ground and, God, You are not doing it." Now my dear people, could we pray like that? Ah, but here was a man who could. Here was a man who could. He then he went on to say, "There are five ministers in this meeting and I don't know where a one of them stands in Your presence, not even Mr. Campbell." Oh, he was an honest man. "But if I know anything at all about my own poor heart, I think I can say and I think that You know that I'm thirsty! I'm thirsty to see the devil defeated in this parish. I'm thirsty to see this community gripped as you gripped Barvas. I'm longing for revival and God, You are not doing it! I am thirsty and you promised to pour water on me." Then a pause and then he cried, "God, I now take upon myself to challenge you to fulfill Your covenant engagement!" Now it was nearing two o'clock in the morning.

What happened? The house shook. A jug on a sideboard fell onto the floor and broke. A minister beside me said, "An earth tremor." And I said, "Yes." But I had my own thoughts. My mind went back to Acts chapter 4 when they prayed the place was shaken. When John Smith stopped praying at twenty minutes past two, I pronounced the benediction and left the house. What did I see? The whole community alive. Men carrying chairs, women carrying stools and asking, "Is there room for us in the churches?" And the Arnot revival broke out. And oh, what a sweeping revival! I don't believe there was a single house in the village that wasn't shaken by God. I went into another farmhouse-I was thirsty, I was tired, I needed something to drink. And I went into ask for a drink of milk and I found nine women in the kitchen crying to God for mercy--nine of them! The power of God swept-and here was a little boy. Oh, he's kneeling by a pigsty and he is crying to God for mercy. And one of the elders goes over to him and prays over him and little Donald Mc_____ came to know the Savior and I believe more souls were brought to Christ through that one lad's prayers than through the preaching of all of the ministers from the island, me included. God used him. He was the boy that prayed, "I gazed upon an open door."

Now that night do you know that the drinking house was closed-the drinking house was closed. Now that's a way back--1952--and it has never been opened since. I was back some time ago and an old man pointed at this house with its windows boarded up and he said, "Mr. Campbell, do you see that house over there? That was the drinking house of the past. Do you know that last week at our prayer meeting 14 of the men who drank there were praying men." Now, people--that's revival. That is God at work. Miracles, supernatural, beyond human explanation-it's God. And I am fully persuaded, dear people, that unless we see something like this happening the average man will stagger back from our efforts, our conferences, conventions and crusades--they will stagger back disappointed, disillusioned and despairing. But oh, if something happens that demonstrates God!

And the communists will hide in shame! I remember one night I saw seven communists--up until then they will spit in your face, talk about religion being the dope of the masses. Educated men. Wouldn't go near a church. But dear old Peggy had a vision one night and in the vision she saw seven men from this particular community from this center of activity born again and becoming pillars of the church of her father. She sent for me and told me that God had revealed to her that He was going to move in this particular village. Oh, yes, there were communists there, godless men there but what was that to God when God began to work He would deal with that. So she kept on talking like that. I said, "Peggy, I have no leadings to go that village. You know that there is no church there, and the schoolmaster is one of those men who would never dream of giving me the schoolhouse for the meetings. I have no leadings to go." And do you know what she said to me? She said, "Mr. Campbell, if you were living as near to God as you ought to be, He would reveal His secrets to you, also." And I took it from the Lord. Oh, dear people, it is good to get the Word within you. It is good to see yourself as others see you. That was how I felt. I said, "Peggy, would you mind if I call for the parish minister and together we will spend the morning together with you in prayer?" "Oh, I'll be happy too."

So we came and we knelt with her and she began to pray and in her prayer she said this--Lord, do You remember what you told me this morning when we had that conversation together?" Oh how near she was God! "I'm just after telling Mr. Campbell about it but he's not prepared to take it-You give him wisdom because the man badly needs it!" That was what she said! "The man badly needs it!" And of course she was speaking truth. Of course I needed it. I needed to be taught. But I was at the feet of a woman who knew God in an intimate way. And I was prepared to listen. So I said, "Peggy, when will I go to that village?" "Tomorrow." "What time?" "Seven o'clock." "Where am I to hold a meeting?" "You go to the village and leave the gathering of the people to God and He will do it."

And I went to the village and when I arrived I found a crowd around a seven room bungalow. I found five ministers waiting for me. And the house was so crowded that we couldn't get in-indeed, we couldn't get near it. And I stood on a hill in front of the main door. I gave out my text: "The times of _____Lord we ______ but now commands men everywhere to repent and because he hath appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he hath ordained." I preached for about 10 minutes when one of the ministers came to me and said, "Mr. Campbell, you remember what you spoke about at five o'clock this morning out in a field in that wonderful meeting when you tried to help those that were seeking God?" I happened to speak from John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow me. I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish. Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." He says, "Could you not go to the end of the house there and some men there and we are afraid that they will go mental they are in such a state. Oh, they are mighty sinners and they know it-they are spoken of here as communists." And they say that three of them were here in the United States and went back communists.

I went and I saw seven men. The seven men that Peggy saw. And they were crying to God for mercy. The seven of them were saved within a matter of days. And if you go to that parish today, you would see a church with a stone wall built around it, heated by electricity and all done by the seven men who became pillars of the church of Peggy's father.

Oh, my dear people--that is God at work! The minister saw two young men on their knees in the field crying to God and he recognized them as two pipers that were to have played at a concert and dance under the auspices of a nursing association off the island in his parish. He turned to his wife and said, "Isn't that wonderful? There's the two pipers who were advertised to play in the parish hall tonight. There they are crying to God for mercy. Come on, we'll go home and we will go to the dance and we will tell them what has happened." So off he went-oh, this was a man of God. Off he went with his wife--it was about 15 miles. Went to the dance and they were not at all pleased with his appearing. He was there to disturb them--they knew that he wasn't there to dance for they knew the man. However, he went in and when a lull came in the dancing, he stepped onto the floor and he said, "Kinfolk, something very wonderful has happened tonight! The Smith pipers were to be here, the two brothers were to be here--they are crying to God for mercy in Barvas! " Suddenly, stillness. Not a word. And then he spoke again, "Young folk, will you sing a psalm with me?" "Yes," said one young man "if you lead the singing yourself." And he gave out Psalm 50: "For God is depicted as a flame of fire" and while singing that psalm, the power of God fell upon the dance. And I understand that only 3 who were there that night remained unsaved. And the first young man to cry to God for mercy was really a boy--just last year he was inducted into one of the largest parishes in Scotland. He found the Savior that night with many others. Oh, dear people, this is the doing of God.

You ask me, "What is the fruit of this type of movement?" Some little time ago the parish minister was asked to give a report in the record of the church of Scotland. He was asked to give a report on the fruit of the revival. Did they stand? Any backsliding? Now this is what he wrote: "I will confine my remarks to my own parish--I will allow the other ministers to give their own reports. But let me speak of my own parish. In a certain village 122 young people found the faith and I'm not talking about middle age or the old. They were wonderful, but I'm thinking about the young people. 122 all of them over the age of 17. They found the Savior during the first day of the revival. Today I can say that they are growing like flowers in the garden of God, there is not a single backslider among them."

Now, dear people, that's true, that's true. But oh if you knew the young people that have gone forth from that to Bible colleges who are today missionaries in this, that and the other part of the world, who came into saving relationships, growing as he said like flowers in the garden of God. Oh how we thank God for the stream of young people who have gone into the ministry-I've sometimes said that supposing Lewis produced nothing but one young girl, a wild, wild girl, just 17 years of age. And outstanding singer, frequently singing at big concerts in Glasgow-she is outstanding. God saved her. She went to a Bible school and today I have no hesitation in saying that she is among the leading Bible expositors in __________- and that is saying a lot. She is just now in South Africa addressing conferences and conventions. Has been instrumental in bringing blessing to scores of ministers and she was the fruit of the movement. I will never forget the night that she prayed. I remember she was steeped in the doctrine of Calvinism. She was brought up in a God-fearing home; her father and mother weren't Christians but they were saved at that time. And she was now on her knees in her room, it's 3 o'clock in the morning and she begins to pray and she says, "God I'm turning from the ways of the world--you'll never see me on a concert platform again. I will follow your people, I will be with them in the prayer meetings. I will never go back to the ways of the world. God that is what I am purposing doing though at the end you send me to hell. That is what I deserve. God six months after that saved her. Oh, I remember the night that the Holy Ghost fell upon her at a communion service. She lifted her two hands like this and she cried, "Oh, Bridegroom, Bridegroom of my heart possess it all. Oh, Bridegroom, Bridegroom of my heart possess it all!" And the Holy Ghost came upon her in such a way that she began to cry, "Oh, God, hold You hand! My young body cannot contain it! God! Hold Your hand! My young body can't contain it!" That was God. That's the fruit. And what we are seeing today_____________ a movement again among teenagers. And we asked a minister recently _________________ now can you explain it? Can you explain this movement in any way? " He said, "Yes, I can-I can. I believe this has broken out because of the steadfastness of the young people who found the Savior during the big revival years ago." The steadfastness of the young people. I can say without fear of contradiction that I can count on my 10 fingers all who dropped off from the prayer meetings-of course they are scattered all over the world, they are in the mission fields and different places today, but according to the ministers in _____________and other places, they are standing true to the God of the covenant, true to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now my dear people that's the story. And I tell it because I fear that another man has been going about the states, telling stories about the revival and writing books about it and I regret to say that statements have been made by him and written in his books that are not true to fact. But that is the story of the revival that can bear the light of examination. God did it. And we bless Him for it.

Nothing is wrong with preaching a sermon on hell. If it is in Scripture it must be preached. Hell as the Word describes it is scary and should scare people if faithfully proclaimed. To leave out the preaching hell is to ignore the Word. The false teachers (cults) do this by eliminating it altogether or toning it down by a false hope of pergatory payment or annihilation. Why Christianity over Buddhism? The Buddhist offers mitigation of consequences through self effort. The Christ freely offers salvation by his blood.
Bro. Havner spoke clearly about the church trends in his day and one of those was the watering down or complete silence on Hell in the seminaries and pulpits of America. He did not believe in scaring people for scarings sake but contended for the uncompromising declaration of the whole counsel of God and if that included a sermon on hell why avoid it?
Just preach the word. I think that was all that quote meant.

Amen Washdad1. We must be faithful to proclaim the whole counsel of God. Too much preaching today is anemic because it leaves out some portions of scripture, and consequently lacks the power of the Holy Spirit.

"There is nothing America needs more than a baptism of old fashioned hell-fire preaching, I'm sure of that." -Leonard Ravenhill

Jade, a proud, obstinate, unrepentant sinner will not respond to being told only about God's love. We must preach the law, then the gospel, in that order. The law is our schoolmaster, to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24). Omitting the law will produce a large crop of backsliders.

Hi Nigel,

Too much preaching today is anemic because it leaves out some portions of scripture, and consequently lacks the power of the Holy Spirit.

I suggest that much preaching today is anemic because it is done in the reasoning and methods and power of preachers.

1 Cor. 2:2-5 ”“
And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

Read again what Duncan Campbell said:

Revival is a moving of God in the community and suddenly the community becomes God conscious before a word is said by any man representing any special effort.

The two dear lady intercessors did not resort to scaring the young ungodly people with scary sermons on hell.

They prayed.

They pleaded God’s promise in Isa. 44:3 ”“ "For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground…”.

This is the complete verse:

Isa. 44:3 (NASB 95) --
For I will pour out water on the thirsty land
And streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring
And My blessing on your descendants;

In other words, they prayed for God’s GRACE to give life to the dead.

1 Tim. 2:1-6 ”“
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men………This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

"There is nothing America needs more than a baptism of old fashioned hell-fire preaching, I'm sure of that." -Leonard Ravenhill

I respect Leonard Ravenhill but this is what Paul said:

1 Cor. 1:17 ”“
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to *** preach the gospel (GOOD News!) ***, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

1 Cor. 2:7(YLT) ”“
but we speak the hidden *** wisdom of God *** in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages *** to our glory ***,

Jade, a proud, obstinate, unrepentant sinner will not respond to being told only about God's love.

Will they respond to a scary sermon on hell?

Also, a fear of hell can produce a skin-deep fear of evil but not a heartfelt hatred of evil.

We can only truly hate evil when we truly know and are overwhelmed by the wonder of God’s goodness and love.

It is God’s clear word that believers are to be grounded and rooted in God’s LOVE (Eph. 3:14-21).

We must preach the law, then the gospel, in that order. The law is our schoolmaster, to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24). Omitting the law will produce a large crop of backsliders.

What exactly is this "law” that you preach?

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom." Proverbs 9:10

Fear of going to sleep for eternity? Fear of not "living your best life now"?

Nigel, good question ”“ what exactly is the "fear of the Lord”? I am still meditating on this topic.

What is the "fear of the Lord” to you?

Blessings

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=24618

Please give transcript or summary of message.

Malachi 2 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁵ My covenant was with Levi of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid. ( the Hebrew meaning for 'afraid' here is to show terror and dread of God. )

"The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.”
”” Malachi 2:6 (KJV)

The law I preach is the law of Moses. Jesus preached this to the rich young ruler to convict him of sin. Was Jesus wrong? Perhaps he could have consulted some modern day preachers to take a softer, more grace-filled approach.

If the law of Moses is presented to a sinner, and allowed to do its work, being used by the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, it will lead to repentance; and if their repentance is genuine, they will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation.

Or, we can tell sinners about God's love and forgiveness when they are not convicted of sin; before the Holy Spirit has done His work of conviction in the soul. They will either laugh and throw it back in your face, or they will "accept" Jesus as their Savior, "try Him out" for a time, and "backslide" (although they were never born again to begin with), and turn back to the world, telling anyone who happens to ask that christianity is a sham. I have seen this happen more times than I care to remember (not because of me though).

"The fear of the LORD is to hate evil." Proverbs 8:13 Are the love and fear of God incompatible? Hardly! They go hand in hand.

I have already quoted Jesus Christ Himself exhorting us to fear God because He can destroy both soul and body in hell. I don't mean preaching a scary sermon on hell, necessarily, although God can use such sermons. But because hell is a terrifying reality, sinners need to be aware of its existence and the measures they can take to avoid it.

I have heard Duncan Campbell sermons numerous times, and I have his book on the revival in Lewis. I remember one instance in particular where a young man is crying out "Lord, is there mercy for me?" There was most definitely deep conviction of sin there.

Perhaps he could have consulted some modern day preachers to take a softer, more grace-filled approach.

We stand on the Word of God.

God is Love (1 John 4:16).

Ps. 57:9-11 ”“
I will give thanks to You, O Lord, among the peoples;
I will sing praises to You among the nations.
For Your lovingkindness is great to the heavens
And Your truth to the clouds.
Be exalted above the heavens, O God;
Let Your glory be above all the earth.

This is our God:

Hosea 11:4 ”“
I drew them with gentle cords,
With bands of love,
And I was to them as those who take the yoke from their neck.
I stooped and fed them.

Jer. 31:3 --
I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.

Without doubt, God hates evil and no evil dwells with God. We are all doomed, without exception. It is by God’s abundant lovingkindness that we can again enter God’s house.

Ps.5:7 (ESV)”“
For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not dwell with you.
v. 7 ”“
But I, through the ***** abundance of your steadfast love *****,
will enter your house.
I will bow down toward your holy temple in the fear of you.

1 John 4:19 ”“
We love, because He first loved us.

Song of Songs 1:4 ”“
"We will rejoice in you and be glad;
We will extol your love more than wine.
Rightly do they love you.”

We must preach the law, then the gospel, in that order.

The law I preach is the law of Moses. Jesus preached this to the rich young ruler to convict him of sin.

The rich young ruler held on to his sin ”“ he could not give up all his worldly riches to follow Jesus. It is the gospel that is the power of God for salvation (Rom.1:16). Jesus could not preach the gospel to him then because He had not yet gone to the cross.

Paul did not preach the law first, then the gospel. The Galatians began with the Spirit, not with the works of the Law. He said to the Galatians:

Gal. 3:1-3 ”“
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? ***** Having begun by the Spirit *****, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Personally, I have not heard a preaching of the law first followed by the gospel. Usually, it is the preaching of the fallen condition of man followed by the gospel. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God……the wages of sin is death……the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I have heard Duncan Campbell sermons numerous times, and I have his book on the revival in Lewis. I remember one instance in particular where a young man is crying out "Lord, is there mercy for me?" There was most definitely deep conviction of sin there.

The deep conviction of the sin there was the work of the Holy Spirit in answer to intercessory prayer for God’s grace.

"The fear of the LORD is to hate evil." Proverbs 8:13

Agree!

Then I ask: What exactly is evil?

Let us let scripture interpret scripture.

God says this is evil:

Jer. 3:13 ”“
"For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me,
The fountain of living waters,
To hew for themselves cisterns,
Broken cisterns That can hold no water.”

v.19 --
………Know therefore and see that it is evil and bitter
For you to forsake the LORD your God,
And the dread of Me is not in you,” declares the Lord GOD of hosts.

Therefore, we do not fear the Lord when we leave God for self-life, self-glory, self-confidence, and self-sufficiency. This is the way that leads to pride and arrogance and covetousness and anger. This is the way that leads to all deeds of wickedness and destruction and there is no satisfaction and no peace.

We fear the Lord when we seek Him and desire Him and run after Him, as a deer pants for streams of water, and all our springs are in Him. We fear the Lord when Christ is our all in all. Then the eye of the Lord is always on us (Ps. 33:18), we have no lack (Ps. 34:9) great is the goodness of God to us (Ps. 31:19) and the angel of the Lord encamps around us and rescues (v.6). Then the Lord leads us in the ways of joy and peace and make us lie in green pastures (Ps. 25:12, Ps. 23, Isa. 55:12). Then we know the everlasting lovingkindness of God (Ps. 103:17), the Lord is our helper and shield (Ps. 115:11) and the Lord delights in us (Ps. 147:11).

Therefore,

Prov. 14:26-27 ”“
In the fear of the LORD there is strong confidence,
And his children will have refuge.
The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life,
That one may avoid the snares of death.

1 John 5:11-12 ”“
And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

Malachi 2 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁵ My covenant was with Levi of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid. ( the Hebrew meaning for 'afraid' here is to show terror and dread of God. )

"The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.”

Mal. 2:5 (KJV) -
My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

"afraid” ”“ Strong’s Hebrew 2865 ”“ meaning to be shattered or dismayed.

I see this as "I” or the "self-life” shattered before God.

The Lord Jesus said: "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.” ”“ Matt. 16:24

In the fear of the Lord in the new covenant of grace:

Our old self was crucified with Christ -- Rom. 6:6.

We are a new creation in Christ; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” -- 2 Cor. 5:17.

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me -- Gal. 2:20.

Not to us, O LORD, not to us,
But to Thy name give glory
Because of Thy lovingkindness, because of Thy truth.
-- Ps. 115:1.

In the fear of the Lord in the new covenant of grace:

John 1:16 ”“ Of His fullness we receive grace upon grace.

John 16:23-24 ”“ We can ask the Father and receive all things in Jesus’ name so that our joy may be full.

Praise the Lord!

Jade, I think perhaps we are misunderstanding each other. I absolutely believe in God's grace and love. I know we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9) and not by the works of the law. I believe all of the new covenant promises. Thank God He sent His Son to die for us! That blood of the everlasting covenant is the only thing that saves us from sin and hell, not keeping the commandments.

However, listen to Paul: "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight..." Romans 3:20 Couldn't be more clear, right? But read the rest of that verse "...for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

I don't want to get into an argument or a long, drawn out debate. I do recommend you listen to Keith Green's series on "What's Wrong With The Gospel" (here is part 1):

http://ia800308.us.archive.org/5/items/SERMONINDEX_SID0777/SID0777.mp3

And also "Hell's Best Kept Secret" by Ray Comfort:

http://ia800308.us.archive.org/5/items/SERMONINDEX_SID0777/SID0777.mp3

Ray Comfort’s approach is not my approach.

I have listened to Keith Green’s message (Part 1) and do not disagree with what he said about the blood and the cross of the Lord Jesus.

Song: Make My Life a Prayer to You

Sung by Keith Green. Lyrics by Melody Green.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjcD3oWBJIw

I want to die and let You give
Your life to me so I might live
And share the hope You gave to me
I want to share
The love that set me free

This song moved me and was a blessing to me in the early years of my Christian life.

This universalism challenges the core of Christian beliefs. It is closer to Buddhism than to Christianity.

Because God is love and abhorres sin he made atonement for it on the cross.

The unrepentant sinner actually loves darkness and hates the light and God himself so why would God force himself on such a man?

Unrepentant sinners in glory would taint heaven, perhaps make it unbearable.

Hell would be an empty and pointless entity. Jesus would have spoken empty threats and promoted lies. He could not be God then.

If universalism was true, keep on sinning and would be a reasonable option, because in the end he will be rewarded for sinning and can laugh into the face of those who walked the narrow path. He will numb his conscience and gain some gratification of sin here on earth. Though he may face some consequences for sinning, it is worth it. Or even better, get away with it he is shrewed enough. What a terrible scenario!

If sinners who reject the atonement and still receive forgiveness, the cross would be an absolute farce.

NP-

I am not going to enter into this discussion other than to state that you are grossly misrepresenting the position of Universal Reconciliation, at least as held by evangelicals.

It may not be the correct viewpoint but you should at least understand it before slamming it. Nothing you have said about it is correct, and I repeat nothing.

narrowpath,

Todd is right.

I do not know what you are talking about.

Also, this thread is not about "universalism”. It is about "scaring the ungodly with a sermon on hell”.

John 16:8-9 ”“
"And He (the Holy Spirit), when He comes, will convict *** the world *** concerning sin…………; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

Zech. 4:6 ”“
"Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,” says the LORD of hosts.

The bowl

You were born into a bowl and there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it. This bowl is the world fallen in sin,... there is no way you can get yourself out- if every single person inside the bowl worked together to get just one person out, they’d be no closer than when they started, still trapped in the bowl and as such subject to its aims, it’s measures of achievement, it’s rules and the Bible clearly states that satan is the "god” of this bowl.

You may ask why do I need to get out of the bowl (rich young ruler) the bowl is quite favorable for me despite all its uncleanliness ?
Answer; Because the bowl and everything in it will be judged and consumed by fire -

You need someone outside the bowl to rescue you from the bowl, someone who is able to set you free from the bowl and it’s control.

Jesus is the first to ever conquer the bowl and it is impossible to do so apart from Him. He did so by dying to it, and being reborn into His Father’s kingdom. This serves as the example to follow, hence His being our "forerunner”.

Every Christian wants to be born again but most don’t want to die to the bowl,... instead they seek to be saved "in” the bowl not "from” it- this was never offered by Christ.

The only way to escape the bowl and it’s inevitable destiny of destruction is to die to it and be born again into His kingdom.

God is not mocked, as a man soweth so shall he also reap...
if you sow into the bowl you can only reap from the bowl, you cannot sow into the bowl and reap in the kingdom. In order to reap (eternal life) from His kingdom you must sow into it.

When the bowls most successful persons of all time stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ, being seen in the light of truth, eternal truth, they will be those who are disciplined, hard working, dedicated, and more successful than anyone ever,... but successful at the wrong thing 🤷🏽”â™‚️ and not only do you get no reward but it in fact heaps condemnation upon your head in the same measure. These are those that think much of themselves.

When those whom have sown into the kingdom stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, they are those whom will hear "well done my good and faithful servant.” These will receive reward in proportion to their sowing. These are those that think much of Christ.

There is nothing inside the bowl that has any authority in the kingdom.... No flesh shall glory in His sight-
The whole of the bowl, since the fall, holds its "truth” to be based off the knowledge of good/evil. This is the basis for the nature of the bowl.
The yin yang principle is simply a characterization of the fruit containing the knowledge of good and evil. This summarizes what the "god of this world”
uses to trick people into choosing the "good” side of the wrong tree.

We must all appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ... every mans work will be judged as by fire and the fire will reveal wether the work is wood, hay, stubble (fruit of sowing into the bowl) or wether the work is silver, gold, precious stones (fruit of sowing into the kingdom).
Those who are born again yet whose work is found to be of the bowl will suffer great loss, yet their souls will be saved tho as by fire-
Consider that right before entering into eternity, you suffer great loss and are chastened by the Lord. Yes you will be in heaven but you will be eternally poor.
Whereas those whose work is found to be silver, gold, precious stones (fruit of sowing into the kingdom after having first died to the world and being reborn) will be saved straight thru and they will receive great reward... they will be eternally wealthy -

So no matter how good or successful you become in the bowl, in the end it amounts to literally nothing and like everything else that can,... will count against you.

Can you see the utter futility in following anything or anyone (in the bowl) wether good or evil?
as their conclusion is identical and certain.

No matter when you come out of the bowl, wether 10 min ago or 10 yrs from now or wether it’s after being resurrected for judgement, you will wish you had come out sooner...
Even so there are 3 immutable facts about coming out of the bowl -
1. You will wish you had sooner
2. You will not want to go back under any circumstances
3. You will go back to the bowl

Why would you go back to the bowl when you don’t want to?
Because Jesus will ask you to....
to bear the reproach of His cross (death to this world) and to be a witness of His so that you may testify of Him.
In the same way His faith was a lamp unto your feet and a light unto your path, so too shall your faith be a lamp unto the feet and a light unto the path of others.
That you may be a fisher of men inside the bowl, leading them to Christ that He may, by His Spirit, set them free from the bowl, it’s aims, it’s temptations, it’s measures of success... for you will now have your source of life from outside the jurisdiction of the bowl, and tho your flesh will be subject to its authority, your aims and objectives will run counter to everything the bowl stands for. You will be hated, persecuted and rebuked for not seeking, as all the others do, success according to the bowl. All religions are (at best) eating the "good” fruit from the wrong tree- there is no life in it.

The preaching of the law is a mechanism created by God to illustrate (bring light) the futility of the success as sought and measured by the bowl and it’s adherents. The law will demonstrate that although you live upright within the bowl, (rich young ruler) that you cannot enter His kingdom until you abandon not only the bowl, but it’s aims and objectives and seek another home, realizing that this bowl is not your home but is rather a perverse construct meant to keep you occupied with all its pains and delights, and no matter how sincerely you seek, you will find no life within the bowl but death and destruction will be found to be the fruit of all things not born of God.

To preach grace to a person who does not yet know they are in the bowl much less seeking escape from it, is to offer chemotherapy to a person who has not yet received a diagnosis of cancer... even tho it were free you wouldn’t want nor need it- yet the same chemotherapy (grace) would be worthy of sacrificing everything after you have a terminal diagnosis (law) that you are otherwise incapable of addressing.

Hence, he who seeks to save his life (in the bowl) shall lose it,.. but he who loses his life (in the bowl) for Jesus namesake, will find life (in the kingdom).

Those whom have been born outside the bowl, yet have been sent back to live in the bowl have completely different reasons for being there and as such look and live completely differently than those who have not yet been born again. Those who have eternal life seek not after the fames and fortunes of the bowl but have already received what they sought (freedom) and as such have peace, a peace that defies all explanation within the bowl.

Tho there are ascetics (monks) who live apart from the bowl, yet they are nonetheless still in the bowl and have escaped nothing regarding the inevitable judgement of the bowl and it’s contents. For there life is the life of the bowl... they are simply in denial and have no portion of the eternal life offered by Christ Jesus.

The bowl is always wrong (sinful) even when it is right, it still falls short and it’s efforts are not only in vain but are an affront to the mercy and grace of God the Father. For since it cannot under any circumstances meet the requirements of God, it simply changes its objectives to suit itself seeking to convince its inhabitants to follow after them so that their whole lives are spent laboring to achieve success,... but at the wrong thing- hence the whole bowl lies within the grasp of the evil one and he deceives the whole bowl-

So what do you offer when you present the gospel? You can’t give what you don’t have... do you have eternal life? If so can you give it to others? Or do you simply offer a "good” life in "Jesus’ name” turning the grace of God into a license of lasciviousness? Forever lacking the clean hands required to ascend the Holy hill-

Peter and John went to pray, they met a lame man on the way whom held up his palms asking for alms (fruit of the bowl) and this is what Peter did say,.... silver and gold (fruit of sowing into the bowl) have I none but such as I have (fruit of sowing into the kingdom) give I thee,... In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk! he went jumping and leaping and praising God, jumping and leaping and praising God, in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk ✝️🙏🏻

So the purpose of the law is to demonstrate that on your best day in your best effort, all you can do is make a bad situation worse... without this revelation anything God offers simply furthers to propel you deeper in a debt that you can’t pay.
The purpose of grace is to demonstrate Gods love and mercy, in that like the mana that fell from heaven daily, we draw our life through it just as a fruit must abide in the vine in order to receive the sap. Anyone who eats the fruit shall receive the life contained within it.

What fruit are you eating?
Many eat from the "good” from the wrong tree and teach others to do also, yet they do so "in Jesus name” this will never work as every seed bear fruit after its own kind-
The only way to be conformed into the image of Christ is to eat what He did, the bread un-leavened by the yeast of the bowl-

Lord I found your word,... and I ate it 😇

I said I wasn’t going to chime in further but I changed my mind🤓

I agree that it is ok and necessary to preach about hell in the sense that it is a real place and a fact.

But Jesus did not strongly preach on hell (in the sense that Jonathan Edwards did) but rather mentioned it in passing as an understood reality. For example, the sheep and goats parable was told to his disciples only.

In the Sermon on the Mount, he mentioned hell but did not dwell on it inordinately.

Paul mentions hell (or did he?) but it clearly was not a focus of his preaching.

The danger of strong hellfire preaching is that it will produce false converts who only "repent” out of self interest. I submit that any "conversion” arising out of self interest is of no effect. The person is still dead in their sins.

Leonard Ravenhill talked about altar rats who returned week after week during altar calls. Obviously nothing real was being transacted.

The Gospel is a particular message of good tidings, heralded through Christ and the apostles (but only rarely by modern evangelists). It is called "the Gospel of the Kingdom,” because it is the proclamation of the presence of another Kingdom and another King””one Jesus (Acts 17:7; 20:25). This entire proclamation can be summarized by the original Christian confession: "Jesus is Lord [i.e., King]." This is what one must confess, in order to be saved (Rom.10:9). It is because He is the King that we must repent (of our former neglect of His lordship), trust Him, and be baptized into His alternative, royal society. Obedience is the obvious response to Lordship:

"Why do you call me 'Lord,' 'Lord,' and you do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)

PURPOSE OF THE LAW

Gal. 3:23 ”“

NASB 1977 ”“
But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Berean Literal Bible ”“
Now before faith came, we were held in custody under the Law, having been locked up until the faith being about to be revealed,

"we were kept in custody” --- Greek ephrouroumetha

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance: "From a compound of pro and horao; to be a watcher in advance, i.e. To mount guard as a sentinel (post spies at gates); figuratively, to hem in, protect -- keep (with a garrison).”

"shut up” --- Greek sunkleiomenoi

Strong’s Concordance: "to shut together, i.e. enclose”

Gal. 3:24 ”“

NASB 1977 ”“
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.

CSB ”“
The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith.

"tutor” ”“ Greek paidagōgos

Strong’s Concordance: "a trainer of boys, i.e. a tutor”; usage:” a boy's guardian or tutor, a slave who had charge of the life and morals of the boys of a family, not strictly a teacher.”

"lead us” ”“ in italics, not in original Greek.

Comment:
-----------

The Law shut up the Jewish people and guarded them, had charge of their lives and morals, until Christ came. No one could be justified by the Law. Only after Christ came, then people can be justified by faith in Him.
It is not that the Law led the people to Christ. But the Law guarded them until Christ. After Christ came, in Christ they would become sons of God (v. 25-26) and they would not need the Law as an external guardian/tutor, but they would have the law written in their hearts by the New Covenant.

"BY THE LAW WAS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN”

Rom. 3:20 ”“
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

The vital point in Paul’s message in Rom. 3 is that both Jews and Gentiles are both under sin (v.9).

The Gentiles did not have the Law but their own conscience and thoughts (or, reasoning) either condemn them or tell them that they are doing right (Rom. 2:15).

For the Jews who were under the Law, "through the Law comes the knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:20).

So, Paul said in Rom. 7:7 ”“ "I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.”

The Greek for "knowledge” in Rom. 3:20 means "full and thorough knowledge”. Therefore, through the Law, the Jews had a knowledge of sin that was fuller and more thorough than the Gentiles’ knowledge of sin through their conscience and thoughts/reasoning.

Comment:
------------

The Gentiles, having a knowledge of sin through their conscience and thoughts/reasoning, sinned.

The Jews, having a fuller and more thorough knowledge of sin through the Law, also sinned. And, their sin was experientially fuller and more thorough than that of the Gentiles.

Rom. 7:13 ”“
………so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Ezek. 5:16 ”“
‘But she has rebelled against My ordinances more wickedly than the nations and against My statutes more than the lands which surround her; for they have rejected My ordinances and have not walked in My statutes.’

The Law exposed the utter sinfulness of the human nature in the Jews but they did not become remorseful or repentant. On the contrary, they became utterly self-righteous as typified by the Pharisee in Luke 18:11-12:

"The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’”

Wouldn’t this also happen if an unbeliever is put under the Law?

1 Cor. 10:11 ”“
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

THE VEIL OVER THE HEART

The Law did not open the hearts of the Jewish people to the Gospel. On the contrary, their minds were hardened and a veil was laid over their hearts.

2 Cor. 3:14-15 ”“
But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

Comment:
---------

For the Jews under the Law, the coming of Christ and the preaching of the Gospel did not soften their hearts and minds. Instead of seeing their need for a Saviour, they crucified Him. Except for a small remnant, the entire nation rejected the Gospel preached to them.

Is it wise then to put sinners under the Law first?

The Law did not lead Paul to Christ. It led him to persecute the Christians. It was the mighty revelation of Christ on the road to Damascus that did what the Law could not do and led him out of darkness into light.

THE GOODNESS OF GOD LEADS TO REPENTANCE

Rom. 2:4 --
Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

Comment:
-----------
Repentance in the NT means a change of thought and will.

It is the knowledge of the great and abundant goodness, forbearance and longsuffering of God that makes us change our thoughts and will, and, like the prodigal son, make the decision to leave the misery of sin and return to the riches and glory our heavenly Father’s house. Our heavenly Father waits to celebrate and rejoice at the return of every sinner who was dead and has come alive and who was lost and has been found (Luke 15:11-32).

Hi Jade,

My Question:
If the fear of hell is the driving force, why would a person become a Christian and not a Buddhist to escape hell?

I think that what Greg said is sound truth. Many groups have elements of "truth" in their teaching. After all, a lie mingled with some truth is often the greatest type of deception.

As most believers know, the agony of Hell is not just the pains of punishment. Rather, it is with the fact that those sentenced will KNOW THE TRUTH and live eternally with the overwhelming knowledge that they are eternally hopeless. There will be no escape.

The "Gospel" is actually the GOOD NEWS that God -- by sending His only begotten Son -- provides a way of escape for all people (both Jews and Gentiles).

So, in response to your initial question: The "driving force" for becoming a follower of Christ is not FEAR but HOPE.

If any person believes in Jesus and gives their "everything" to him, then they can be redeemed. They can know the Creator of the Universe and avoid the punishment designed for Satan and his angels and assigned to sinners who do not.

Hi Christopher,

TRUTH

Christians believe they have the truth.

The Buddhists also believe that their beliefs are true.

It is the Christians’ word against the Buddhists’ word, the Christians’ truth against the Buddhists’ truth.

The Buddhists will hold to their truth as firmly as Christians hold to their truth.

So, how will it be shown whose truth is the real truth?

THE GOSPEL

Preachers are trying to save people from hell but the Bible says that Jesus will save people *** from their sins ***.

Matt. 1:21 ”“
"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people *** from their sins ***.”

Hi Jade,

I suppose that the difference is that Buddhism might provide some "peace of mind" but not "peace of soul." While they might be correct about the diagnosis (Hell), they're substituting a placebo in place of the only viable cure.

Christ not only brings peace to a troubled mind, but truly coming to the Lord (the Creator of all things) brings a peace that "surpasses all understanding" (Philippians 4:7). I can say this from personal experience.

As the old Scotsman once wrote, "Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God." I feel that the peace is an outcome of the hope that we have in Christ Jesus.

While there are religions that believe that they have the truth and some might feel a degree of "peace of mind," they will lack this supernatural peace that comes only from knowing Jesus Christ. This is because Jesus is the ONLY way to God.

I remember reading "NO COMPROMISE: THE LIFE STORY OF KEITH GREEN" (written by Melody Green). Keith Green was born into a Jewish family. However, his parents had dabbled in other religions too (as was becoming more common in those days). People were questioning what they were taught and seeking truth.

With agitation and discomfort of his soul, Keith Green began to seek "truth." He made a list of all of these philosophies and religions. At the bottom of his list of "Jesus Christ." Like many others, Keith Green found that none of the things on his list worked until he came to Christ Jesus.

Yes, you make a great point about being saved from our SINS. The Bible says this plainly. However, our "sins" are the diagnosis for which hell in the consequence. Salvation from both only comes through Christ Jesus. Thus, we are both saved FROM our sins and hell; but, we are also set apart FOR our Lord. This supernatural peace is born from belonging to him.

Hi Christopher,

they will lack this supernatural peace that comes only from knowing Jesus Christ.

Yet Buddhists may look at Christians they know and do not see this to be true.

But I will say this:

God’s Truth can only be known by a revelation of God in the depths of the human being by the Spirit of God.

It cannot be truly known in the realms of human thought and reasoning or by the power of human persuasion.

Ps. 51:6 (Berean Study Bible) ”“
Surely You desire truth in the inmost being;
You teach me wisdom in the inmost place.

It is in our inmost being that the Holy Spirit will convict us of sin and righteousness and lead us into all truth.

Therefore it is futile to try to convert a person by scary sermons or by any other human method.

1 Cor. 2:5 ”“
………that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

However, our "sins" are the diagnosis for which hell in the consequence.

The Greek word for sin is hamartanó which means "to miss the mark”.

It is "falling short of the glory of God” --- Rom. 3:23.

God created man in His image, in His likeness (Gen. 1:26). NT tells us that God had predestined man to be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom. 8:29).

Christ is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of God’s nature (Heb. 1:3).

So man would also be the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of God’s being.

When Adam sinned, this image was lost.

Christ came to save us from our sin, that is, save us from missing the mark and falling short of the glory of God.

The gospel is that we may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thess. 2:14).

Col. 1:25-27 ”“
Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is *** Christ in you, the hope of glory ***.

Hi Jade,

You raise some great points. Please allow me to touch on a few of them:

Yet Buddhists may look at Christians they know and do not see this to be true.

I don't believe that the world comes to Christ because of the examples of all of those who claim to follow or even know him. The hope of salvation is not found in man but only in Christ Jesus.

God’s Truth can only be known by a revelation of God in the depths of the human being by the Spirit of God.

It cannot be truly known in the realms of human thought and reasoning or by the power of human persuasion.

True. However, God has chosen "the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe" (I Corinthians 1:21 [and verses 18-25 for context]). In fact, this passage speaks to the importance of preaching the truth:

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”””that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?
And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent?
Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”

Romans 10:8-15

This reminds me of the song GOD'S ONLY FOOL by Michael Card.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEJrjGa106U

You're right that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44 [verses 41-51 in context]). However, the Lord has actually chosen the preaching of the Gospel to accomplish this.

I don't believe that this is a binary EITHER/OR conceptualization either. It isn't the preaching of Hell OR the preaching of being saved from sin. It's both...and more.

The Gospel can only be understood from the its completeness -- that sin has separated man from God. The consequence of that separation is Hell. The Law of Moses existed to make a way of righteousness...but no one could fulfill it in its entirety. So, God sent His only begotten Son to this world to be the sacrifice for ALL sins.

It is in our inmost being that the Holy Spirit will convict us of sin and righteousness and lead us into all truth.

Therefore it is futile to try to convert a person by scary sermons or by any other human method.

When Paul had left Damascus and first went out and preached (Acts 13), he preached about ETERNAL LIFE. In his message, Paul preached about the Good News that Jesus -- the descendent of David -- had brought "salvation."

In fact, Paul said, "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses" (Acts 13:38-39).

However, the next week, he also scolded those who had scoffed, contradicted the things that Paul preached and even engaged in blasphemy. So, Paul responded by telling them that they "repudiate" the Word of God and "judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life" (verse 44-46). In a sense, you could say that Paul taught the WHOLE counsel or purpose of God (Acts 20:27).

I get what you're saying too. A message that focuses solely on the preaching of Hell as the "thing" that we are saved from (or solely to invoke fear in the heart of the listener) is kind of missing the point. We are saved from our sins (and the guilt that comes from sin). By being saved from our sins (and that guilt), we are saved from the consequence of dying in sin -- namely punishment that is reserved for the devil and his angels.

Personally, I think that the presentations of the Good News as recorded by the apostles and others in the Book of Acts are a good primer for what our salvation message should be like.

"Still, I'd point out that the consequence of dying without Christ IS scary. It should be so terrifying that it should shake someone to the core -- past bone and marrow and into the very soul and spirit of that person!”
””””””””””””

I would submit that a person must have a true revelation of Jesus Christ to be saved.

If a person has a true revelation of Christ, the idea of not spending eternity with Him is what is terrifying, not the idea of hell.

If a person is terrified of hell and not by the dread of failing to live for Christ for HIS sake, he is not saved.

That is the danger of scaring people into "converting” by hellfire preaching. The "conversion” is exceedingly suspect because it is grounded in self interest and that is nothing less than idolatry.

You wrote: "Still, I'd point out that the consequence of dying without Christ IS scary. It should be so terrifying that it should shake someone to the core -- past bone and marrow and into the very soul and spirit of that person!”
””””””””””””

I would submit that a person must have a true revelation of Jesus Christ to be saved.

If a person has a true revelation of Christ, the idea of not spending eternity with Him is what is terrifying, not the idea of hell.

If a person is terrified of hell and not by the dread of failing to live for Christ for HIS sake, he is not saved.

That is the danger of scaring people into "converting” by hellfire preaching. The "conversion” is exceedingly suspect because it is grounded in self interest and that is nothing less than idolatry.”

in response;
The preaching of hell/judgment has different effects depending on the spiritual condition of the hearer-
For an unbeliever, the preaching of hell/judgement is purposed to arrest the deception/lies of the enemy by confronting them with their inevitable conclusions. Once that is established in the hearer, the opportunity for them to humble themselves in the light of judgement and hell. This is of great value...”He resists the prideful but He gives grace to the humble”...

For a believer, hearing the effectual preaching of an inevitable judgement and potential "great loss” certainly helps a brother/sister who is being enticed by the things of this world,(which happens often) to remind themselves of the utter futility of pursuing that as it only and inevitably leads to death... as our flesh is subject to temptations.

As brother Chris mentioned, no one is advocating to preach only judgement/hell but that it should be included in a healthy diet, as it were.
Incidentally, the preaching of Gods love is not really present in the Synoptics or Acts as a point of focus, in fact it is most often reserved for those whom are already converted, ie; Johns gospel and epistle and Paul’s letters. They are all written to believers, they (to my knowledge) didn’t really go around telling the unbelieving world that Jesus loves them... meaning I can’t imagine the apostles were beaten to death in the streets for telling people, both in and without the church, that Jesus loves them 🤷🏽”â™‚️
point being, things can get convoluted when we don’t divide the word rightly... a "love of the truth” (2 Thess 2) is imperative, without which God Himself seals us over, reserved for judgement -😳 that is as heavy as it gets brother, and this is written exclusively to believers - let that sink in 🙏🏻

edit to add:
The current world situation is a prime example... once people heard there was a terrible disease that could kill them or their loved ones they naturally sought remedy... even willing to subject themselves and their loved ones to an experimental treatment in hopes of escaping. This same effect can be (and has been) produced from the effectual preaching of judgement/hell.

" Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Hi Todd,

I would submit that a person must have a true revelation of Jesus Christ to be saved.

If a person has a true revelation of Christ, the idea of not spending eternity with Him is what is terrifying, not the idea of hell.

If a person is terrified of hell and not by the dread of failing to live for Christ for HIS sake, he is not saved.

However, my point was that the message that Paul preached (as found in Acts) focused both upon the depravity of mankind, the inability to completely follow the Law and the Good News that God sent his own Son as the ultimate sacrifice for us.

Still, the realization of hell should be ever-present.

Consider Luke 12:4-5...

4 "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!"

Hi Christopher,

I don't believe that the world comes to Christ because of the examples of all of those who claim to follow or even know him. The hope of salvation is not found in man but only in Christ Jesus.

You said that Christ not only brings peace to a troubled mind, but truly coming to the Lord (the Creator of all things) brings a peace that "surpasses all understanding" (Philippians 4:7). You said that you have a personal experience of this. Therefore, for you, the examples of other Christians will certainly not affect you because you have known this truth as a reality in your heart.

But if you are in utter darkness and someone comes preaching the wonders of light and how it gives joy and sight and life etc. and you are even given beautiful illustrations of light, yet, without a real experience of light, light would remain unreal to you and is easily dismissed as make-believe. And if the preacher has no experience of light himself, how is he to be believed?

True. However, God has chosen "the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe" (I Corinthians 1:21 [and verses 18-25 for context]).

The "foolishness of the message” in the mighty power of the Holy Spirit.

HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS (ROM. 10:15)

The preacher is just a voice crying in the wilderness, just a messenger bringing good tidings of great joy.

Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ (Rom. 10:17).

Jesus said:

John 6:63 --
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”

The Spirit and life are in the Word.

Isa. 55:10-11 ”“
For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

1 Cor. 3:5-6 ”“
I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

Mark 3:26-27 ”“
And He was saying, "The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows”” how, he himself does not know.

HELL

Actually, the Bible does not give much clear and detailed information about hell. Much of what is preached about hell comes from people’s own interpretation of difficult scripture and people’s own thoughts on hell.

BEHOLDING

There is a mystery in "beholding”.

The ewes and she-goats at breeding time, gazing intently on objects of speckled colours that Jacob placed before them, produced speckled young (Gen. 30:31-43).

Should we fix people’s gaze too intently on hell?

Lot’s wife looking back on Sodom and Gomorrah, on which the Lord had rained brimstone and fire, became a pillar of salt (Gen. 19:23-26).

We are instructed to fix our eyes on Jesus (Gen. 12:2).

Correction:
===========
We are instructed to fix our eyes on Jesus (Heb. 12:2).
--- added 11/11/21

John 6:40 ”“
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

2 Cor. 3:18 ”“
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

THEN GOD SAID, "LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE, ACCORDING TO OUR LIKENESS……” (GEN. 1:26)

God’s word cannot fail.

Ps. 33:9 --
For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.

Ps. 119:89 (Amp) ”“
Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven [standing firm and unchangeable].

God will be all in all (1 Cor. 15:28)

"Should we fix people’s gaze too intently on hell?

Lot’s wife looking back on Sodom and Gomorrah, on which the Lord had rained brimstone and fire, became a pillar of salt (Gen. 19:23-26).

We are instructed to fix our eyes on Jesus (Gen. 12:2)”

Sister you tend to misrepresent the scriptures by separating them from their context -

In the above instance you present a question that is nowhere found in scripture, then propping it up with the example of Lots wife looking back...
God commanded them to not look back- to do so is sin and the wages of sin is death/hell. Yet you attempt to use this scripture out of it’s obvious context to prove what exactly??

Then you attempt to use the Gen 12:2 verse to buttress your point... yet it is in fact Jesus who warned of hell more than anyone else in the scriptures🤔

Honestly, can you not see the folly of this position?
I mean are suggesting Jesus got it wrong ?

When the NT states "every man will be judged according to his works” knowing many have and will die apart from Christ,... are you suggesting that God will pardon their sins apart from the blood of Jesus?
If so, on what basis?
If not, what happens to them, where do they spend eternity?

//yet it is in fact Jesus who warned of hell more than anyone else in the scriptures🤔//

I just wanted to dispel the myth that Jesus talked more about hell than he did about heaven(Fletcher I realize you did not say this but many have).

There are 1900 verses in the NT that record Jesus’s words.

60 (3%) of them might be construed as directly or indirectly referencing hell.

192 (10%) mention eternal life, heaven or his coming Kingdom.

Another way to say this is that 97% of the time, hell was not part of his discussion.

We won’t even get into the problem of what Jesus really meant when he used the word "hell,” actually Gehenna, which was an actual place outside of Jerusalem.

In Mark 9 is says in verses
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

in case someone overreads it.

"And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Isaiah 66:24

Isaiah is talking about literal dead bodies. The cremation fires are not still burning today nor are the worms eating the dead bodies still squirming today.

Why is it ok to read Isaiah as hyperbolic language but take the words of Jesus, who was quoting this Isaiah passage, as literal? Besides, Gehenna, outside the gates of Jerusalem, was a real place of burning.

Then you attempt to use the Gen 12:2 verse to buttress your point...

Correction:
==========
We are instructed to fix our eyes on Jesus (Heb. 12:2).

Heb. 12:2 ”“
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith……

Sorry, the post was typed in a hurry.

Lot’s wife looked back and saw a city being destroyed and she became what she saw --- destroyed.

You are free to disagree.

... are you suggesting that God will pardon their sins apart from the blood of Jesus?
If so, on what basis?
If not, what happens to them, where do they spend eternity?

God will pardon their sins because of the blood of Jesus.

1 John 2:2””
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Isa. 66:23 ”“
"All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD.

Phil. 2:10-11 ”“
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Hell is serious

Hell is serious but when we were dead in our trespasses and in the uncircumcision of our sinful nature, God made us alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross Col. 2:13-15 BSB).

All authority has been given to the Lord Jesus on heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18).

He is the King of Righteousness, King of Peace. He is Lord of all (comment: already a fact), abounding in riches for all who call on Him (Rom.10:12).

Therefore, the church is to announce this Good News and to make disciples of all nations.

The old is gone. The new has come.

Ps. 22:7 ”“
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.

Hab. 2:14 ”“
For the earth will be filled
With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD,
As the waters cover the sea.

2 Peter 3 - the whole chapter clearly and undeniably refutes this idea you cling to. While this chapter plainly states God desires all men to be saved, it equally and clearly states that will not be the case and will include the destruction of not only the wicked but also those whom twist the scriptures-

If what you put forth had any merit whatsoever, the manifold warnings from Paul, Peter, Jude, James, etc... would be not only unnecessary but openly misleading to the reader and as such pose an impediment to the reader/hearer. Why would God spend so much time in His word to warn people of something that was never a threat to them to begin with??

Also regarding Lots wife,... she was destroyed because she disobeyed a direct commandment- this is plainly stated in scripture-

Not sure why you would cling to such strange doctrines but if you belong to Him, He will discipline you and if you receive the discipline of the Lord you will be considered His child and if you reject the Lords discipline you will be a bastard - (Hebrews 12)

Eternal separation from God is real, it is terrifying - the scriptures are undeniably clear on this from beginning to end. To suggest otherwise is not only an affront to the revealed word of God but in fact overthrows faith of many who would otherwise believe and repent, as such is a damnable heresy 💯

I agree with all Peter wrote in his 2 Peter Epistle.

SOME POINTS:

(1)

2 Pet. 1:3-4 ”“
seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by (margin: or to) His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

We escape the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ --- 2 Pet. 2:20.

Comment:

Life and godliness are by the GRACE of God. God’s divine power has granted to us EVERYTHING pertaining to life and godliness.

Life and godliness are through the true KNOWLEDGE of Christ. It is through KNOWING CHRIST as Paul said:

Phil. 3:10-11 ”“
that I may KNOW Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Eph. 3:19 ”“
and to KNOW the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

"KNOW” is to experientially know and not just head knowledge and giving mental assent.

(2)

2 Pet. 2:1-2 ”“
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even *** denying the Master *** who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will *** follow their sensuality ***, and because of them the *** way of the truth *** will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

Comment:

A key phrase here is "denying the Master”.

People can deny Christ by:

Instead of having faith in Christ as the great I AM, the only TRUTH, they deny Him and say in their own hearts, "I am, and there is no one besides me (Isa. 47:10)” i.e., self-exaltation and pride.

Instead of denying themselves and following Christ, they deny Christ and follow the lusts of their flesh, the lust of their eyes and their boastful pride of life.

The true and only way to be saved from this error of denying Christ is to die to self and let Christ live in us. It is knowing this eternal truth as an unshakeable reality in us:

Gal. 2:20 ”“
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

And Christ can live in us only through the Holy Spirit by faith (Eph. 3:14-19). It is by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves. It is the GIFT of God (Eph 2:8-9).

Error is introduced when this truth is denied or modified and bent to fit another theology.

(3)

2 Pet. 3:7 ”“
But by His word *** the present heavens and earth *** are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

There surely is a day coming for the judgement and destruction of ungodly men.

But the fire is not in a "hell” that is commonly preached but in *** the present heavens and earth *** as Peter said.

Peter gave more details:

2 Pet. 3:10-12 ”“
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up……all these things are to be destroyed in this way…………the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

It will surely be unimaginably terrifying for the ungodly on the earth who will be burnt with the earth.

Paul tells us that the saved in Christ will be with Christ in the air (1 Thess. 4:16-17) and so escape this terror.

What next?

Peter then spoke of "new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells (v. 13)”.

Other scripture verses tell us more:

Isa. 26:9 ”“
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

1 Sam. 2:6 ”“
The LORD kills and makes alive;
He brings down to Sheol and raises up.

1 Cor. 15:21-28 ”“
For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order:
Christ the first fruits,
after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
When *** all things are subjected to Him ***, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, *** so that God may be all in all ***.

To me hell is a doctrine that I know it is in scripture and I believe in 100%
As I used to hand out heaven and hell your choice

There are three greek words used
γέεννα Gehanna
https://biblehub.com/greek/1067.htm
ᾍδης Hades
https://biblehub.com/greek/86.htm
ταρταρόω Tartarus
https://biblehub.com/greek/5020.htm

Tartarus is reserved for the angels

I know I dont want to be in Hell one minute let alone fifty seconds.

We know Hell is eternal

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20
The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire

I used to get the answer why does a loving god send people to an eternal hell and I answered that God would not be a loving God if he didn't send people to an eternal hell

When I am evangelising on the street, I used to ask them would you want to live eternally with a murderer or an unrepentant sinner.

If there is no hell, there is no justice for all the crime that is committed in this world. As God knows he is omnipresent he sees every crime simultaneously. As he became a man he knows the temptations.

How can god be a righteous judge if there is no hell, we have prisons where we put criminals yet does not God have the right to put those who disobey him.

I used to struggle with the doctrine of Hell until I realised that it is not up to me.
I can believe that Gravity is not true but that doesn't make it not true or different versions of Gravity if I jump of a building Gravity still works and I have done that.
If the same God created the world created heaven and Hell.

I may not believe in its existence that doesn't stop it from not existing.

As no one is righteous no not one all have sinned and fallen sinned and fallen short of the glory of god and I am the chief of sinners, we are rebels who rebel against gods righteousness.

If I phoned up the queen or the president and decided to stay in the queens house tonight she would not let me in unless I know the queen.

Why should I go to heaven and unless I know his savoiur who died on the cross for my sin, He created heaven and hell and I cant come to God on my terms as I can believe that Buses arent real and walk in front of a bus.

Eternity is a long time , I don't want to go to Hell.

Re:Jade,
I cannot agree with you.

Are we not to see, hear,..share, the *whole counsel of God,’ that was preached through Jesus’ mouth plus many others, when God prompts the heart to speak this?

I believe, if we want to get a glimpse of what *hell is, just pull up a great
*volcano, (on the web,)where the black-red lava, ..*brimstone) (sulfur).. is flowing down the mountain, and look deep with-in that volcano.

Well, this is what prompted my unforgiving heart at one time in my life, when I just with in my own self could not forgive. (I was in the hospital, and that is what came on the History Channel. The Lord impressed on me that if I did not forgive that is where I would be at,.... in the volcano. When I got home. I heededThe Lords warning to me.
........
The Bible says ,Satan *diveiveth the whole world.(Rev)

Do we believe that he would take advantage of every conceivable thing to draw men into *hell ?... ...Awe,.. would he do such a thing ?

We could think on these things:

What about *disception: ..?

*the gospel?’
Jesus say, over and over what the gospel is,...
‘The *gospel of the kingdom’ must be preached’
The gospel is the "gospel of the kingdom,
It is how we are to live under the Lordship of Christ”

*the good news, is:
Jesus has come, preached to us *the Way, the Word ,straight from God, to everyone,... and has made an *entrance for us, through His Blood, to enter in... and power to become the children of God)

*faith:
Abram believed God, .. he heard,.. he obeyed

*grace:
"The Devine effluence upon the heart,..(the hearing of the Word)
"And it’s (that anointed Word), reflection in the life.”

We are called by His *grace to be:
"born again,”
*filled with His Spirit”
*Led by His Spirit

We have come out of *the law,..(the reading of it on the wall,and trying to do it.
but now, we are called by His Name, ... His Word, .. His Grace, into The Spirit .. to be *led ,.. a follower of Jesus Christ.
...............
elizabeth

Todd said,
\t
Obedience arising from fear of punishment is always begrudged obedience.

If we do not love the King, whatever begrudged obedience we may render is a sham. It is not salvation.

_____________________________________________

Yes, we must "love the King", but we must also fear Him!

Jesus said,

But I will warn you Whom to fear: fear Him Who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell.Yes, I tell you, fear Him! Luke 12:5

Treat everyone with high regard: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king. 1 Peter 2:17

My son, fear both the LORD and the king, and don't keep company with rebels. Proverbs 24:21

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; but the foolish despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 1:7

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Proverbs 9:10

The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, that one may turn away from the snares of death.Proverbs 14:27

By steadfast love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the Lord one turns away from evil.Proverbs 16:6

Do not let your heart envy sinners, but be zealous for the fear of the LORD all the day; for surely there is a hereafter, and your hope will not be cut off. Proverbs 23:17-18

Blessed is the one who fears the Lord always, but whoever hardens his heart will fall into calamity.
Proverbs 28:14

John Bunyan wrote on "The Fear of God", you may read it for free at the following link:

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/bunyan/A_Treatise_on_the_Fear_of_God_-_John_Bunyan.pdf

Just some of my thoughts:
Jesus said: "go and preach the Gospel..." Paul's concern was the true Gospel.
A true conversion is a supernatural work of God by the Holy Spirit.
We become a "new creation" and "by their fruit we shall know them"
Therefore it needs true Gospel preaching and the work of the Holy spirit to become a new creation.

As believers we need to continue in our faith. With genuine faith we learn about the goodness of God and the severity of God. (Rom. 11:22)
You find this throughout the Bible.

If we go into the region of darkness, we will be overwhelmed by the forces there.

The Holy Spirit alone knows how and will convict the world of sin and of righteousness.

We are to send out the light and the truth and stay in the light ourselves.

Ps. 43:3 ”“
O send out Your light and Your truth, let them lead me;
Let them bring me to Your holy hill
And to Your dwelling places.

The church is specifically sent to preach the gospel (exceedingly good news) of the Kingdom of God (sovereign rule of God) to all creation and to make disciples of all nations (Mark 16:15 & Matt. 28:18-20).

Jesus is Lord abounding in riches for all who call on Him (Rom. 10:12).

Ps. 89:2 ”“
For I have said,
"Lovingkindness will be built up forever;
In the heavens You will establish Your faithfulness.”

Ps. 36:7-9 ”“
How precious is Thy lovingkindness, O God!
And the children of men take refuge in the shadow of Thy wings.
They drink their fill of the abundance of Your house;
And You give them to drink of the river of Your delights.
For with You is the fountain of life;
In Your light we see light.

The church is also exhorted TO PRAY FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL MEN (1 Tim. 2:1-6).

The story of our salvation is a story of God’s wondrous and unfailing LOVE that passes knowledge.

God demonstrated His own LOVE toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Rom. 5:8).

The LOVE of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Rom. 5:5).

That we, being rooted and grounded in LOVE, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the LOVE of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that we may be filled up to all the fullness of God (Eph. 3:17-19).

Nothing can separate us from the LOVE of Christ, and we will overwhelmingly conquer all enemies THROUGH HIM WHO LOVED US.

Rom. 8:37-39 ”“
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer THROUGH HIM WHO LOVED US
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the LOVE of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hosea 11:4 (NKJV) ”“
I drew them with gentle cords,
With bands of LOVE,
And I was to them as those who take the yoke from their neck.
I stooped and fed them.

----------

Ps. 127:1 ”“
Unless the LORD builds the house,
They labor in vain who build it;
Unless the LORD guards the city,
The watchman keeps awake in vain.
It is vain for you to rise up early,
To retire late,
To eat the bread of painful labors;
For He gives to His beloved even in his sleep.

Hi Jade,

Do you believe that there be souls cast into the lake of fire and suffer for eternity?

Do you believe that all men, saints and reprobates alike will one day be saved and reconciled to God?

Thanks Jade
These are all good verses about the goodness of God.
But can't you see the severity of God for those who disobey Him?
Example: we know that after the exodus the majority perished in the wilderness because the disobeyed God and fell into idol worship.

Markus

Savannah wrote:
//Yes, we must "love the King", but we must also fear Him!//

Anyone who truly confesses Jesus as Lord (King) commits to obey Him out of love and fear(respect).

A true disciple is averse to displeasing the Lord because the idea of displeasing the Lord in and of itself is unthinkable.

To give an example from literature, those faithful to Aragorn in the Lord of the Rings or those faithful to Aslan in Narnia were willing to follow both to death if necessary. They did not do so because they were afraid that Aragorn or Aslan would kill them if they didn’t, they did so because they loved their king, and the idea of being untrue was the furthest thing from their minds.

However, behind this love is a healthy dose of respect and fear, as shown in this exchange in The Lion the Witch and The Wardrobe:

Is--is he a man?” asked Lucy.
"Aslan a man!” said Mr. Beaver sternly. "Certainly not. I tell you he is the King of the wood and the son of the great Emperor-Beyond-the-Sea. Don’t you know who is the King of Beasts? Aslan is a lion--the Lion, the great Lion.”
"Ooh!” said Susan, "I’d thought he was a man. Is he--quite safe? I shall feel rather nervous about meeting a lion.”
"That you will, dearie, and no mistake,” said Mrs. Beaver. "If there’s anyone who can appear before Aslan without their knees knocking, they’re either braver than most or else just silly.”
"Then he isn’t safe?” said Lucy.
"Safe?” said Mr. Beaver. "Don’t you hear what Mrs. Beaver tells you? Who said anything about safe? ’Course he isn’t safe. But he’s good. He’s the King, I tell you."

Men Honoured Above Angels
John Newton
Now let us join with hearts and tongues,
And emulate the angels' songs;
Yea, sinners may address their King
In songs that angels cannot sing.

They praise the Lamb who once was slain;
But we can add a higher strain;
Not only say, "He suffer'd thus,
"But that he suffer'd all for us."

When angels by transgression fell,
Justice consign'd them all to hell;
But Mercy form'd a wondrous plan,
To save and honour fallen man.

Jesus, who pass'd the angels by,
Assum'd our flesh to bleed and die;
And still he makes it his abode;
As man he fills the throne of God.

Our next of kin, our Brother now,
Is he to whom the angels bow;
They join with us to praise his name,
But we the nearest int'rest claim.

But, ah! how faint our praises rise!
Sure, 'tis the wonder of the skies,
That we, who share his richest love,
So cold and unconcern'd should prove.

Oh, glorious hour, it comes with speed!
When we, from sin and darkness freed,
Shall see the God who died for man,
And praise him more than angels can.

(C) John Newton

Maybe the Getty's should put this hymnn to music

I thought John Newton would be more fitting as I love c s lewis but not his views on hell

In this poem Newton detracts that Jesus came down to redeem men but not the angels as God did not redeem them but he chose to redeem men

He is the same person who wrote amazing grace

If you are really feeling daring read sinners in the hands of an angry God

Jonathan Edwards :: Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God
SINNERS IN THE HANDS OF AN ANGRY GOD
by the
Rev. Jonathan Edwards
A Sermon Preached at Enfield, July 8th, 1741
At a Time of Great Awakenings, and Attended with Remarkable Impressions on many of the Hearers.

Their foot shall slide in due time.””Deut. 32:35.

In this verse is threatened the vengeance of God on the wicked unbelieving Israelites, who were God’s visible people, and who lived under the means of grace; but who, notwithstanding all God’s wonderful works towards them, remained (as Deut. 32:28.) void of counsel, having no understanding in them. Under all the cultivations of heaven, they brought forth bitter and poisonous fruit; as in the two verses next preceding the text.””The expression I have chosen for my text, their foot shall slide in due time, seems to imply the following things, relating to the punishment and destruction to which these wicked Israelites were exposed.

1. That they were always exposed to destruction; as one that stands or walks in slippery places is always exposed to fall. This is implied in the manner of their destruction coming upon them, being represented by their foot sliding. The same is expressed, "Surely thou didst set them in slippery places; thou castedst them down into destruction. (Psalm 73:18)”

2. It implies, that they were always exposed to sudden unexpected destruction. As he that walks in slippery places is every moment liable to fall, he cannot foresee one moment whether he shall stand or fall the next; and when he does fall, he falls at once without warning: Which is also expressed in "Surely thou didst set them in slippery places; thou castedst them down into destruction: How are they brought into desolation as in a moment? (Psalm 73:18-19)”

3. Another thing implied is, that they are liable to fall of themselves, without being thrown down by the hand of another; as he that stands or walks on slippery ground needs nothing but his own weight to throw him down.

4. That the reason why they are not fallen already and do not fall now is only that God’s appointed time is not come. For it is said, that when that due time, or appointed time comes, their foot shall slide. Then they shall be left to fall, as they are inclined by their own weight. God will not hold them up in these slippery places any longer, but will let them go; and then, at that very instant, they shall fall into destruction; as he that stands on such slippery declining ground, on the edge of a pit, he cannot stand alone, when he is let go he immediately falls and is lost.

The observation from the words that I would now insist upon is this.””"There is nothing that keeps wicked men at any one moment out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God.”””By the mere pleasure of God, I mean his sovereign pleasure, his arbitrary will, restrained by no obligation, hindered by no manner of difficulty, any more than if nothing else but God’s mere will had in the least degree, or in any respect whatsoever, any hand in the preservation of wicked men one moment.””The truth of this observation may appear by the following considerations.

1. There is no want of power in God to cast wicked men into hell at any moment. Men’s hands cannot be strong when God rises up. The strongest have no power to resist him, nor can any deliver out of his hands.””He is not only able to cast wicked men into hell, but he can most easily do it. Sometimes an earthly prince meets with a great deal of difficulty to subdue a rebel, who has found means to fortify himself, and has made himself strong by the numbers of his followers. But it is not so with God. There is no fortress that is any defense from the power of God. Though hand join in hand, and vast multitudes of God’s enemies combine and associate themselves, they are easily broken in pieces. They are as great heaps of light chaff before the whirlwind; or large quantities of dry stubble before devouring flames. We find it easy to tread on and crush a worm that we see crawling on the earth; so it is easy for us to cut or singe a slender thread that any thing hangs by:

I don't think his sermon would even enter into the mind of most preachers today.
There is no want of power in God to cast sinners into hell at any moment
Not ontop of Joel osteens or Benny hinns or Todd Bentley
Words to preach
The thing is when he preached this sermon it caused a great revival
Do people want a true revival
I look at me the chief of sinners

I think I should let the passages speak for themselves
As I can quote from people like Whitfield or John Bunyan or r a Torrey on hell

You are more than welcome to stand on the street corner and preach Edwards’ beloved sermon. Don’t think you’ll see much in the way of results.

I was detailing that as that was a sermon that brought the great awakening that saved millions in America,

It shows you how low America has come.

It was the power of the holy spirit that went with that sermon that was amazing as he had a candle and his voice was terrible.

Yet when he preached the sermon people saw hell open up beneath them, the nearest that I have come to that is one of Keith Daniels sermons.

this was some of the accounts

During the 1730s, the church in Northampton felt the stirring of the Holy Spirit, moving them from their lukewarm apathy to an awakening of their souls. Delivering his most famous sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," on July 8, 1741, in Enfield, Connecticut, Edwards helped spread the revival. A great commotion swept over the people and they began wailing, crying, and screeching loudly. Frequently Edwards asked the congregation to control themselves so he might finish his sermon. As a result of his preaching and the work of the Spirit, lives began to change and complete towns were transformed.

https://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1701-1800/the-great-awakening-11630212.html

There is me thinking that someone would bring up the question why do the angels have no redemption and why did god choose men to be redeemed rather than Angels.

Re:Jade, you said,..
"For if we go into the region of darkness, we will be overwhelmed by the forces there.”
..............
No,.. light overcomes darkness.
Darkness is all around us in this world...if we are truly His, then light goes w/us. ...”ye are the light of the world ",... the Light that is in us brings Light into this darkness.....
Darkness doesn’t like the light.,.

The Spirit that is within us,..the light,
Convicts the world of sin,and of righteousness.
..............
*another Scripture you mentioned:
"Unless the LORD builds the house,
They labor in vain who build it; "
..........
Yes, The Lord wants to us to build a house, to house the Holy Spirit in us, but it must be built upon the *Rock.
(The *Rock is the *Word,.. the ^Trurth of God.)

..............❤️
elizabeth

You are right Dom- I shouldn’t have said what I said.

Hi narrowpath,

I have already given scriptures regarding these.

The only important thing is:

What saith the scripture?

Hi Markus,

These are all good verses about the goodness of God.
But can't you see the severity of God for those who disobey Him?
Example: we know that after the exodus the majority perished in the wilderness because the disobeyed God and fell into idol worship.

1 Cor. 8:6 ”“
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

The severity of God is for those who reject or do not trust in the goodness of God.

The severity of God is for those who fall from grace through lack of faith and those who are proud of the works of their own flesh.

Jer. 2:13 ”“
For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me,
The fountain of living waters,
To hew for themselves cisterns,
Broken cisterns That can hold no water.

Regarding the people who perished in the wilderness, the Lord their God had commanded them to enter Canaan, the land flowing with milk and honey, but they refused to enter because they feared the "giants” in the land. They did not trust the Lord their God who would fight for them.

The Jewish people where cut off from their own olive tree because they rejected the GRACE and truth that came through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul was utterly angry with the Galatians because they were falling from grace into works of the law.

SINNERS IN THE HANDS OF AN ANGRY GOD

As I can quote from people like Whitfield or John Bunyan or r a Torrey on hell

But what saith the scripture?

It was the power of the holy spirit that went with that sermon ……

Try imitating Jonathan Edwards and preach his sermon as a "method” in the preacher’s own power and Todd will be right…… "Don’t think you’ll see much in the way of results”. Hearts may even be more hardened.

As a result of his preaching and the work of the Spirit, lives began to change and complete towns were transformed.

See what happened to those sinners in the hands of an angry God:

The powers of darkness were broken. Prisoners of darkness were set free. Eyes were opened and people turned from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God.

!!!

Are you saying that a person filled with the Holy Spirit can INDEPENDENTLY do everything that the Most High God can do?

----------

THE ROCK IS CHRIST.

Deut. 32:3-4 ”“
For I proclaim the name of the LORD;
Ascribe greatness to our God!
The Rock!
His work is perfect,
For all His ways are just;
A God of faithfulness and without injustice,
Righteous and upright is He.

Ps. 18:31 ”“
For who is God, but the LORD?
And who is a rock, except our God,

1 Cor. 10:3-4 ”“
and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

1 Cor. 3:11 ”“
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

TRUTH IS CHRIST.

John 14:6 ”“
Jesus said to him, "*** I am *** the way, and *** the truth ***, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 8:58 (NKJV) ”“
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 8:24 (ISV) ”“
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you'll die in your sins."

John 17:3 ”“
This is eternal life, *** that they may know You ***, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

1 John 5:20 ”“
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Hi Jade,

I am challenging you, because you wrote in an earlier post

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=63839&forum=34&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0

---------------
Re:\tReply To This Post |
Hi Platy,

Acts 17:11 ”“
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

I have dared to question, dared to challenge, and, dared to search the scriptures to see whether commonly taught things are true.

I have no interest in "universalism”, whatever it is.

I stand on God’s word alone.

And I have found sufficient scriptural backing to believe that all men will be saved and I have peace in my heart in believing this.
-------------------

This is the core belief of universalism.

NP-

When you say "universalism” what do you mean, exactly?

But what saith the scripture?

I can do an entire cover of all the scriptures on Hell as there are lots could you read the post as I don't want to go there :) not even for a nano second

Hi Todd, Wikipedia has a pretty good and exhaustive definition on "Christian Universalism".

I know what it means, but there are different versions of it. I was simply wondering what version you meant when you used the term universalism.

Hi narrowpath,

I said:

And I have found sufficient scriptural backing to believe that all men will be saved and I have peace in my heart in believing this.

To this you said:

This is the core belief of universalism.

If what I said is the core belief of "universalism”, then I can only say that the anti-universalists are terrifying people with their unscriptural views.

But I will have no affiliation with either the universalists or anti-universalists. I stand firmly on scripture alone.

1 Kings 1:3 ”“
But the angel of the LORD said to Elijah the Tishbite, "Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria and say to them, ‘Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going to inquire of Baal-zebub, the god of Ekron?’

So, I ask:

Is it because God’s Word (scripture alone) is not the lamp to our feet and the light to our path that we have to inquire of the universalists or the anti-universalists or whoever else for God’s truth?

Hi Jade,

[Quote:
And I have found sufficient scriptural backing to believe that all men will be saved and I have peace in my heart in believing this.]

This actually challenges a core truth of the bible. Jesus did not just come to love us but to save us from our sins and to save us from eternal and unbearable judgment in the lake of fire - because he loves us.

I and others here on SI could quote a lot of scripture to back this up.

If that weren't so, the cosmic drama of lost mankind and our crucified saviour would lose its meaning, because saints and reprobates will finally all end up in glory.

The murderer and his victim, the rapist and his victim all end up in glory?

You quote a lot of scripture, and other good sources and that in itself is not wrong. The problem occures when you quote scripture out of context. I am sorry to be so direct, sister, but this teaching can potentially lead others astray.

Here you have 6 x fire + 3 x hell:

Mark 9:43-48
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

NP wrote:

//If that weren't so, the cosmic drama of lost mankind and our crucified saviour would lose its meaning, because saints and reprobates will finally all end up in glory.//

If the view of conscious eternal torment is true, one thing that is clear is that Jesus is the cosmic loser with a capital "L.” This is based on percentages alone.

You also mentioned how unjust it would be for both the rapist and murderer to end up in glory with their victims. Does this not in reality happen, even if your view is correct? What about David and the Apostle Paul?

The bottom line is that it galls you that God might do something amazing that offends your sense of justice. I have heard the same thing from my best friend and dear Christian brother. It’s kind of like the field worker guys in the parable that were indignant that they, who worked all day, got paid the same as those who worked for an hour or two. But the master could do what he wants with his money.

Jade,.. forgive me for not getting back to you sooner, but I was out yesterday.
......
Re:you ask me,...
"Are you saying that a person filled with the Holy Spirit can INDEPENDENTLY do everything that the Most High God can do?”
.............
I do not understand how that question came about,... Jade, please explain.
..........
The Bible says,.. Jesus said,

Matthew 5:14 (KJV)
"Ye are the *light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."
........
Those that are His, ...this *Light is in us and goes w/ us.... (if we do not hide it), which He tells us not to do.

The *Word of God that He put w/in us by the Holy Spirit,.. and is The Spirit of God.

It is *enlightenment.
It is *The Light to lighten our path,..walk,..

Ephesians 5:8 (KJV)
"For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] *light in the Lord: walk as children of *light:”
.......

1 Peter 2:9 (KJV)
"But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous *light:”
............

And *grace which we did not deserve is the helper, and power from the beginning to do His will,.. to work the *fruit of The Spirit in us as we deal w/life.... (our natural man cannot work the things that be of God)(it is The grace of God that bringeth repentance)
And what is repentance?:
A turning from whatever that comes up in our *old nature.... it is not a ‘one time thing.......
we must always have a *willing mind to *renewing of our mind to go in His way,.. as He guides us by His Spirit.
.............

**As for *The Rock,....
......
Psalms 18:31 (KJV)
"For who [is] God save the LORD? or who [is] a *rock save our God?”
..............
1 Samuel 2:2 (KJV)
"[There is] none holy as the LORD: for [there is] none beside thee: neither [is there] any *rock like our God.”
.........

2 Samuel 22:47 (KJV)
"The LORD liveth; and blessed [be] my *rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.”

Psalms 28:1 (KJV) [[[A Psalm] of David.]]
"Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my *rock; be not silent to me: lest, [if] thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit.*rock of my salvation.”
..........
Psalms 28:1 (KJV) [[[A Psalm] of David.]]
" Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my *rock; be not silent to me: lest, [if] thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit.”
..........

Psalms 78:35 (KJV)
"And they remembered that God [was] their *rock, and the high God their redeemer."
.........
The Bible says, God , (who is Spirit, is *The Word),.. and In the Scriptures above that were just given.
...

John 1:1 (KJV)
"In the beginning was *the *Word, and *the *Word was with God, and *the *Word was God.”
(And God is *The Rock,... The *Word)

Jn1:14,
And *The *Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us”
.........

Luke 6:47-48 (KJV)
47 "Whosoever cometh to me, and ‘Heareth my sayings,” and *doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48 "He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a *rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.”
.......

1 Corinthians 10:2-4 (KJV)
2 "And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 "And did all eat the same *spiritual *meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual *Rock that followed them: and that *Rock was Christ.”

1 Peter 2:2-9 (KJV)
2 *As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3 "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious. (gives much *grace)

4 "To whom coming, [as unto] ‘a living *stone’, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,

5 "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief *corner *stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 "Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto ‘them which be disobedient’, the *stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 "And a *stone of stumbling, and a *rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 "But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous *light:"
.........

Jade:I hope this helps to clarify.

..............
elizabeth

Hi Todd,
[The bottom line is that it galls you that God might do something amazing that offends your sense of justice. I have heard the same thing from my best friend and dear Christian brother. It’s kind of like the field worker guys in the parable that were indignant that they, who worked all day, got paid the same as those who worked for an hour or two. But the master could do what he wants with his money.]

You misunderstand me. Of course repentant sinners regardless how heinous their crimes will end up in glory when they persevere, I am talking about reprobate, unrepentant sinners. They will not inherit the kingdom of God but will end up in hell and ultimately the lake of fire.

Elizabeth,

Guess we are not on the same page.

Can you give a concise summary of what you are saying?

narrowpath,

Here you have 6 x fire + 3 x hell:

Mark 9:43-48
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Read carefully again who are those going to hell.

How do you yourself measure up?

These are the words of Jesus:

Matt. 7:1-3 ”“
Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

The problem occures when you quote scripture out of context.

Example?

I am sorry to be so direct, sister, but this teaching can potentially lead others astray.

The Lord Jesus said:

John 12:32 ”“
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Can you give scripture that says your doctrine of eternal torment will lead people to Christ.

If that weren't so, the cosmic drama of lost mankind and our crucified saviour would lose its meaning, because saints and reprobates will finally all end up in glory.

Were you not once a reprobate?

Christ died so that reprobates can become saints.

You are quick to condemn but Jesus prayed for those who crucified Him:

Luke 23:34 --
But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”

Hi Jade, Jesus our saviour warned about hell in so many instances. The bible is very descript and open about it. You know the scriptures yourself but twist them to mean what they they don't mean.

Hell is a real place where all men who have not believed and repented go to suffer for eternity. When I read scriptures about hell, the Spirit witnesses to me that hell is a real and fearsome entitity reserved for all men unless they repent and believe.

If it weren't so, these scriptures would be meaningless. I am afraid you have settled in your mind what you want to believe about hell and no scripture would convince you at this point, so I will leave it here. It is one thing to believe these doctines and another to propagate them. I do not need to win an argument here, but I care for your soul, dear Jade.

I wonder if it is possible to be a disciple of Jesus without embracing the fact that I otherwise would deserve God's retributive punishment in an eternal hell.

In reading through this thread, a few thoughts come to mind.

First, as modern day believers, we so often settle into a doctrine and then read scripture through the eyes of that doctrine. And, our doctrine is often informed more by our modern culture than it is by the culture of Jesus' time.

For example, Jesus dealt almost exclusively with the Jews. In fact, He said in Matthew 15 that He was sent to the lost of the house of Israel. So when Jesus speaks, we must understand to whom He is speaking. The Jews understood the law and through it sought to gain righteousness. Jesus showed them time and time again that they were not righteous, but in sin and destined for Hell.

Paul was sent to the Gentiles. If you read His letters to Galatia, Colossi, and etc. you get a different feel altogether. So much so that many who call themselves Messianic believers are rejecting Paul's teachings altogether. Paul majors on the grace of God in a really big way.

(Side note: Grace has been, I think, poorly defined. It is the power of God, His anointing, to do in and through me what I cannot do myself. For example, I am saved by His power, not by my own works, etc..)

Another problem we have is that we make the consequence of our decision to be the goal of our decision. We have had the tendency to make salvation out to be primarily about making a decision that changes my eternal destination. So we major on the heat of Hell and the bliss of Heaven and try to either attract people to heaven or scare them out of Hell.

But the fact that I will wind up in Heaven or Hell is secondary. Salvation is about surrender to the King of Kings and entry into His kingdom. It is about knowing Him, about being at peace with Him, being made righteous, by the blood and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is more about entering into a relationship than anything else. Gaining Heaven and missing Hell are part of the package, but they are not the goal of the transaction. In other words, I will be with Him forever. Why is this awesome? Because I am with Him now and I cannot imagine it any other way. Not because I am simply relieved to be avoiding Hell.

So Jade makes some good points. The purpose of the Law for example.

I am not sure by reading the posts if what is being pushed is universalism. Universalism, by the way, is a damnable heresy in very plain terms. Not because of the heaven / hell issue. Jesus said that no man could come to Him except he first deny self, take up his cross, and follow Jesus. And we cannot be right with the Father without coming through the Son. And without knowing Him, we will not have eternal life.

What I am saying is that the focus is not Heaven vs. Hell and I don't think it ever was. Hell is VERY real. That is not even debatable for anyone who had even cursory knowledge of the Bible and the New Testament specifically. The question is, it seems to me, "Is Hell the motivating factor for salvation?" I agree with, I believe it was Todd, near the beginning of the thread. Fear of Hell should not be the primary motivating factor in salvation.

When Paul said in Romans that the gentiles showed the work of the law occurring in themselves even though they did not know the Mosaic law, he was saying that their condemnation and excusing of one another showed that they understood there was a standard they were not living up to. I have never met a person, so far, that did not have an innate understanding of their own destiny as a sinner. What they lacked was the solution to the problem they found themselves in. I think preaching about Hell (whether to a congregation of believer, which seems superfluous, or probably more in conversation with unbelievers) has an important function of helping a person realize the end consequence of their life's path. But it is not the driving force that brings them to Christ. Otherwise they are using Him to save their sorry hide so to speak rather than entering into relationship with Him to know Him.

Just my perspective. Hope it helps.

Hi narrowpath,

You know the scriptures yourself but twist them to mean what they they don't mean.

Example?

It is one thing to believe these doctines and another to propagate them.

These Church Fathers held the doctrine of UNIVERAL RESTORATION:

Theophilus of Antioch (c. 120-190)
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150”“215)
Origen (c. 184”“253)
Athenagoras (133-190)
Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335”“395)

Hell is a real place where all men who have not believed and repented go to suffer for eternity.

These are already eternal truths/realities (which will be fully revealed at the end of time):

The Lamb of God has already taken away the sins of the *** world *** (1 John 2:2).

Christ has already taken away the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He had taken it away, nailing it to the cross (Col. 2:14).

Principalities and powers have already been disarmed (Col. 2:15).

All authority has already been given to the Lord Jesus in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18).

In Christ all will be made alive (1 Cor. 15:22).

All things will be subjected to Christ and God will be all in all (1 Cor. 15:28).

I wonder if it is possible to be a disciple of Jesus without embracing the fact that I otherwise would deserve God's retributive punishment in an eternal hell.

It is the "self-life” that the Lord Jesus is against.

This is what He demands:

Luke 9:23-25 ”“
And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?”

It is the self-life that is enmity to God and must relinquished.

This is what we must embrace to be true disciples of Christ:

Gal. 2:20 ”“
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

We are to be preoccupied with abiding in Christ.

John 15:5,8 ”“
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing………… My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

The ministry of the Law is the ministry of condemnation, but the ministry of the Spirit is of righteousness (2 Cor. 3:7-9).

God has given the church a ministry of *** reconciliation ***.

2 Cor. 5:18-19 ”“
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the *** ministry of reconciliation , namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation ***.

I do not need to win an argument here, but I care for your soul, dear Jade.

It is not about winning any argument but to know the truth that sets us free.

I have a hope sure and steadfast in Jesus.

2 Tim. 1:8-10 ”“
…………the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

V.12 ”“
…………for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

2 Tim. 1:12 ”“
…………for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

Travis-

I appreciate your post and agree with almost all it.

I don’t necessarily agree that the idea of "universalism” is a damnable heresy because there are different versions of what this means. That is why I was trying to get NP to explain what he meant by the term.

For example, the version that says everyone goes to heaven automatically regardless of belief and there is no hell etc is certainly heretical.

But the evangelical position called "Universal Reconciliation,” which has ample support in scripture, is not heretical. While I do not ascribe to this view, I have studied it extensively and I would call it "hopeful,” not heretical.

Universalism is synonym with "Universal Reconciliation".

I do not care about the so called church fathers, their statements bare no weight unless found in scripture. I have a father in heaven. Often they were wrong and some of their heresies prevail until today.

I say it again and do not mince my words. Universalism or "Universal Reconciliation" is a damnable heresy, because it gives people the illusion that hell is not eternal, God's wrath no longer exists and there is no retributive judgment and sin is not that serious and the fear of God is rejected as a pitiful state of mind.

This is the great dilemna of the 21st century church. You can draw huge crowds by protaying a nice soft God, overemphasizing grace and "unconditional love" and dismissing anything to do with holiness, fear of God, discipline, self-denial and bearing the cross, suffering and walking the narrow path, bearing reproach and taking up my cross daily.

I was once part of that movement, and I am glad I came out of it. Knowing the terror of the Lord and his hate for sin and his just wrath caused me to appreciate his love and grace more than ever before. No way back!

George Whitfield was also a proponent of universal reconciliation as was William Law. To suggest these men did not know their Bible is a tad ridiculous.

NP - I am not saying you are wrong in your view about eternal torment. All I can say is that I hope you are, because I think it smears the character of God and makes Jesus the loser in his cosmic battle against the evil one.

[George Whitfield was also a proponent of universal reconciliation] Where do you find that??

William Law - I do not find evidence for that, he does talk about hell and damnation of souls.

[NP - I am not saying you are wrong in your view about eternal torment. All I can say is that I hope you are, because I think it smears the character of God and makes Jesus the loser in his cosmic battle against the evil one.]

This statement contradicts itself. You say I am not wrong but hope I am because it smears God's character?? Does God smear his own character??

//Does God smear his own character??//

No! That’s sort of the point.

//[George Whitfield was also a proponent of universal reconciliation] Where do you find that??//

I misspoke about Whitfield. Sorry about that.

From William Law:
””””””””””
Love, goodness, and communication of good, is the immutable glory and perfection of the divine nature, and nothing can have union with God, but that which partakes of this goodness. The love that brought forth the existence of all things, changes not through the fall of its creatures, but is continually at work, to bring back all fallen nature and creature to their first state of goodness. All that passes for a time between God and his fallen creature, is but one and the same thing, working for one and the same end; and though this is called wrath, that called punishment, curse, and death, it is all from the beginning to the end, nothing but the work of the first creating love, and means nothing else, does nothing else, but those works of purifying fire, which must, and alone can burn away all that dark evil, which separates the creature from its first created union with God. God's providence, from the fall to the restitution of all things, is doing the same thing, as when he said to the dark chaos of fallen nature, "Let there be light"; he still says, and will continue saying the same thing, till there is no evil of darkness left in all that is nature and creature. God creating, God illuminating, God sanctifying, God threatening and punishing, God forgiving and redeeming, is but one and the same essential, immutable, never ceasing working of the divine nature. That in God which illuminates and glorifies saints and angels in heaven, is that very same working of the divine nature, which wounds, pains, punishes, and purifies sinners upon earth. And (N.B.) every number of destroyed sinners, whether thrown by Noah's flood, or Sodom's brimstone, into the terrible furnace of a life, insensible of anything but new forms of raging misery till judgment's day, must through the all -working, all- redeeming love of God, which never ceases, come at last to know that they had lost, and have found again such a God of love as this.

And if long and long ages of fiery pain, and tormenting darkness, fall to the share of many, or most of God's apostate creatures, they will last no longer, than till the great fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is SELF has died in the long agonies and bloody sweat of a lost God, which is that all-saving cross of Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power, till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God.

Hi Todd,

As far as William Law is concerned I must admit, this is plain universalism. It bewilders me that this otherwise so influential Puritan has such flaws. It just shows me that we are never safe to rely on man for correct theology.

Wesley and Whitefield were influenced greatly by Laws classic
"A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life"

I guess it was the influence of the mystic Jakob Boehme who caused his descent into mysticism and other aberations.

But it is a version of universalism that does not deny the tortures of hell for unrepentant sinners, perhaps for eons. It just holds that ultimately even the most stubborn will repent.

So the ultimate question is whether God’s punishments are remedial or for the mere sake of punishment. It’s is hard to fathom how an eternity of torment is justified by relatively few years of sinning. Not only that, but if hell is eternal there will always be sin and sinners.

This is hard to fathom for a finite human mind. The Spirit has to convict us:

John 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The conforter comforts with the sweetest comfort AND brings us into tantalizing conviction!

When we are unrepentant towards an infinitely holy God, who has provided the ultimate sacrifice of his only begotten Son to save us to the uttermost, and reject His boundless grace and all sufficient atonement then eternal punishment in hell is adequate and righteous and just! God seals the reprobates ultimate choice and gives him what he deserves - the just compensation for his works, regardless if he was a vile criminal or a decent, but self-righteous man.

Just keep in mind what an awful thing it is to reject such a priceless gift and keep in mind who it is we reject.

"Anything carried to the infinite must have all of the properties of the same thing as finite, except those which depend on finiteness….The parallel assertion must be made respecting infinite goodness. What belongs to it either as Infinite or as Absolute I do not pretend to know; but I know that infinite goodness must be goodness, and that what is not consistent with goodness, is not consistent with infinite goodness. If in ascribing goodness to God I do not mean what I mean by goodness; if I do not mean the goodness of which I have some knowledge, but an incomprehensible attribute of an incomprehensible substance, which for aught I know may be a totally different quality from that which I love and venerate,…what do I mean by calling it goodness? And what reason have I for venerating it? …****To say that God’s goodness may be different in kind from man’s goodness, what is it but saying with a slight change of phraseology that God may possibly not be good?****” (my emphasis)

John Stuart Mill

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

\tNow surely the clear point is that God has done all He can do through Christ to make a way for everyone to know Him, yet there is the caveat of "be ye” which squarely puts the onus on us to respond in kind.
If there were an "ultimate consummation” where God in fact restored those previously judged post mortem (hell) then the onus would be on Him to say so.... as He does nothing without first revealing it to the prophets, in which case we would have it as the scriptures are a closed cannon, being complete in themselves. In fact the Lord did reveal His plan for universal reconciliation in Christ, thru the mouth of Paul who then revealed it to us.
Honestly there’s not really an honest argument for it, other than wishful thinking which, unlike the scriptures, is under our jurisdiction. The scriptures tell us from beginning to end and especially Jesus told us to fear the Lord Almighty.... if only the end he is so loving that eventually you’ll be with him and after all it’s eternity so I am free to do whatever I want and the outcome is ultimately the same - that is nowhere found in the scriptures, full stop . Of course someone can make a patchwork quilt out of preselected verses where they can imply virtually anything, but no straightforward reading of the text could ever lead someone to such a conclusion. Of course a person can assign any sort of academic classification to a text and marginalize its effect, where the terms themselves serve as the means of doing so, for example the term "apocalyptic language” is oft used to dismiss the literalness of the lord events described but there is a rather obvious reason the writer is using "apocalyptic language” and that’s because he’s seeing and describing "THE” apocalypse... 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Jade,
Re:you said,..
"Guess we are not on the same page.”
...............
I’m really sorry to say this, Jade, but it seems that we are really not on the same page...

I try to make what I say,... what my thoughts are, plain, but know that I don’t always do that,... so at this time that all I can do....sorry.
.............
elizabeth

Romans 11:22 (KJV)
"Behold therefore the *goodness and *severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”
.............
Hell:
God , though His great mercy , has done by not even sparing His only begotten Son to keep us from being thrown into everlasting hell.and is doing all that He does though The Spirit of His Son , having great mercy on us , to keep His wrath from us, ... (it is not His will that any perish.,)
But if we *defy Him, and refuse to follow Him, He is God, ...His Ways are not our ways, and He has no other alternative but to *cast us away....
and hell is His designated place ,... the lake of fire, forever,He has made/created for the disobedient.

We have been called to be followers of Jesus,... and we know that Jesus followed his Father, God, who is The Spirit/Word , who He was *led by.
...........
elizabeth

Mill was an agnostic and a sceptic.

If punishment is not eternal but say millions of years in purgatory, in light of eternity it is just a split second, and unrepentant sinners are in glory.

Elizabeth,

We have been called to be followers of Jesus,... and we know that Jesus followed his Father, God, who is The Spirit/Word , who He was *led by.

Are you saying that Jesus is just a "pattern” for us to copy? That we are to follow God the Father who is the Holy Spirit and the Word, who leads us, and Jesus is just a distant Jesus in our Christian life?

I am asking this because we must not deny the absolute Lordship and supremacy of Christ and moment by moment we must abide in Him (John 15).

"Moment by moment I’m kept in His love;
Moment by moment I’ve life from above;
Looking to Jesus till glory doth shine;
Moment by moment, O Lord, I am Thine.”
--- Old Hymn

narrowpath,

Universalism is synonym with "Universal Reconciliation".

"Universalism” has become a word that preachers of eternal torment hurl at those who oppose them to intimidate them.

I reject it and will call what I believe "biblical universal reconciliation”.

I do not care about the so called church fathers, their statements bare no weight unless found in scripture. I have a father in heaven. Often they were wrong and some of their heresies prevail until today.

"Church Fathers” -- Just using men’s terminology.

You yourself have embraced "church father" Augustine’s (354-430) doctrine of eternal torment and propagating it.

………and dismissing anything to do with holiness, fear of God, discipline, self-denial and bearing the cross, suffering and walking the narrow path, bearing reproach and taking up my cross daily.

Are not many believers of eternal torment guilty of the same?

The doctrine of eternal torment does not sanctify anyone.

Jesus Himself is our sanctification (1 Cor. 1:30-31).

It just shows me that we are never safe to rely on man for correct theology.

Except the men who preach the theology of eternal torment???

//Mill was an agnostic and a sceptic.//

True, but that does not mean his argument can or should be ignored.

Humans in civilized areas do not endlessly torture criminals until they die, regardless of their crimes. They are either jailed for life or executed. We do not put thrumbscrews on criminals or break their bones and allow to heal only to break them again. This is because it offends both our sense of goodness and justice.

But when God does this you would say it must be good, even though being made in God’s image means we are supposed to have God’s sense of what "good” is. James says that mercy triumphs over judgment.

The idea of sin being an "infinite” offense that deserves infinite punishment is no where found in scripture”” it is just something made up because it sounds good to proponents of eternal torment. One of the basic tenets of justice is that the punishment should fit the crime.

Hi Jade,

there is nothing "biblical" about "universal reconciliation" because it flatly contradicts scripture:

@Todd: You are using human centered reasoning, the truth of eternal judgment is just a horrible as the gospel is good news and tremendous relief to convicted sinners and anxious souls.
Do you want to accuse God for not meeting your standard of justice?

I am very blunt here, because universalism and its derivates just undo the cross and the gospel.

2 Corinthians 5:10-12
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Here is a list of proof texts for eternal punishment, I am sure you know them, captitalization added for emphasis. If these do not convince you, then we are probably not on the same page as Elibeith already stated.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for EVER and EVER: and they have NO REST day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 19: 1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for EVER and EVER.

Jude 6-8 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL fire.

Mark 9:43-48
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that NEVER shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that NEVER shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 16:25-26
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a GREAT GULF fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you CANNOT; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Hi narrowpath,

there is nothing "biblical" about "universal reconciliation" because it flatly contradicts scripture:

That you must convincingly prove.

Do you want to accuse God for not meeting your standard of justice?

God would accuse you of not revering His good and perfect and wondrous justice.

God’s justice seeks to restore that which are in ruins, or which are hopeless, to His perfect righteousness. Whatever falls from God's perfect righteousness is in a wrong state and must be made right.

Isa. 59:11 ”“
All of us growl like bears,
And moan sadly like doves;
We hope for *** justice ***, but there is none,
For salvation, but it is far from us.

Comment:
The justice needed is for healing and deliverance from the hopeless and sorrowful state.

v.12 ”“
For our transgressions are multiplied before You,
And our sins testify against us;
For our transgressions are with us,
And we know our iniquities:
Transgressing and denying the LORD,
And turning away from our God,
Speaking oppression and revolt,
Conceiving in and uttering from the heart lying words.
Justice is turned back,
And righteousness stands far away;
For truth has stumbled in the street,
And uprightness cannot enter.

What does the Lord do?

Isa. 59:15-16 ”“
Now the LORD saw,
And it was displeasing in His sight that there was *** no justice ***.
And He saw that there was no man,
And was astonished that there was no one to intercede;
Then His own arm brought salvation to Him,
And His righteousness upheld Him.

I am very blunt here, because universalism and its derivates just undo the cross and the gospel.

I will be equally blunt.

It is those who are against universal reconciliation who are undervaluing what Christ achieved at the cross.

It was through the cross of Christ that *** God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them *** (2 Cor. 5:19).

It was at the cross that Christ broke the powers of darkness, of sin and of the world, and set every descendant of fallen Adam free.

1 Cor. 15:21-22 ”“
For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

2 Corinthians 5:10-12
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

God’s righteousness is established through His judgments and certainly the judgments can be terrifying.

Isa. 26:9 ”“
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Judgement will begin in the house of God (1 Pet. 4:17).

The church will also go through a "burning”.

1 Pet. 4:12 ”“
Beloved, do not be surprised at the *** fiery ordeal *** among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;

"fiery ordeal” ”“ Strong’s Gk 4451 meaning "burning”

It is the same "burning” in Rev. 18:9 and 18:18.

If the "burning” in the church is a refining fire, then the "burning” in Rev. 18 would also be a refining fire.

The "burning” will burn out all that is not of God that is in a man.

"Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men……”

2 Cor. 13:5 ”“
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how *** that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates ***?

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for EVER and EVER: and they have NO REST day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I will not comment on this scripture passage as it is concerned with the controversial mark of the beast.

Rev 19: 1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for EVER and EVER.

This is the "burning” of "Babylon”.

This "burning” of Babylon is mentioned in Rev. 18:9 and 18:18; the Greek word for "burning” here is the same as the Greek word for the church’s "fiery trial” in 1 Pet. 4:12.

The smoke that rose up for ever and ever must be from the ashes of a completely destroyed Babylon for "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and *** will never be found again ***” (Rev.18:21).

It is not "eternal torment”.

Jude 6-8 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL fire.

"ETERNAL” ”“ Strong’s Gk 166 ”“ "agelong”.

Mark 9:43-48
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that NEVER shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that NEVER shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Every descendant of fallen Adam is guilty! All are doomed.

Thank God! The old man has been crucified with Christ. At the cross of Christ, the hands of flesh, the feet of flesh and the eyes of flesh have all been circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands.

Christ has saved everyone from the fire that can NEVER be quenched! We can all enter the kingdom of God, a new creation in Christ, clothed with Christ, accepted in the Beloved.

1 John 4:14 ”“
We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be *** THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD ***.

Praise the Lord!

Luke 16:25-26
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a GREAT GULF fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you CANNOT; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

The rich man for sure CANNOT cross that GREAT GULF. He must DIE with Jesus at His cross. When he is dead and has become "nothing”, then he will rise with the Lord Jesus in His resurrection to the glory of God and Christ will be his all in all.

Luke 18:24-26 ”“
And Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! "For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” They who heard it said, "Then who can be saved?” But He said, "The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.”

Jade,
I wish so much that I could help.

Re: your question:

"Areyou saying that Jesus is just a "pattern” for us to copy? That we are to follow God the Father who is the Holy Spirit and the Word, who leads us, and Jesus is just a distant Jesus in our Christian life?”[end of quote]
...........
Jade , I am saying,we are to be *born again of *The Spirit of God, ... filled and *Led by that Spirit of God.
Jesus was *Led by The Spirit of God, His Father.
.............

2 John 1:9 (KJV)
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the *doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that *abideth IN he *doctrine of Christ, he hath *both the ӢFather and the *Son."

And:

This is a quote on the Word *doctrine ,from Bro Gbile Akanni,on a video that I was hearing this morning:

Quote from Bro Gbile:

"Give attendance to the *doctrine”
*doctrine is the systematic commutative teaching of The Word of God that forms and commutates conviction and manner of our living.”

"Doctrinal knowledge,... systematic counsels of God that instills a man firmly.”
[end quote]
Wisdom that comes from from God alone..
.........

Proverbs 14:12 (KJV)
"There is a *way which *seemeth right unto a man, but the *end thereof [are] the *ways of *death.

.... there is *a *way,.. not *The *Way

"I Am *The Way

...through The *Blood of Jesus, and His *directions ,... the Words that I speak,...not throwing His Words to the ground,.(keep). *The Truth,

.... *The Life

(Not an imagined Jesus)

That *seemeth right ...
.
...it just *seems right.

..............
2 Thessalonians 1:7-11 (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not *the *gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

(The *gospel of the *kingdom of God/heaven)

9 Who shall be punished with *everlasting *destruction *from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:"
................
I truly am not trying to be harsh in no way,.. hope is to help.
I , too am still learning.... "Put my yoke upon you, and learn of me”
...............
elizabeth

Hi Jade,

if you defy what is plainly written, then there is nothing more I can say. You believe what you want to believe. Hell and judgment is a fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith and not negotialble.

It is perhaps the most uncomfortable and hardest truth to embrace, but it is still truth to set us free and central to the gospel.

The Spirit himself bears witness of this thruth as I stated earlier.

There are two types of fire which you are confusing:
God's refining fire for his saints and for those who might in their trials turn to God

and

God's retributive judgment after death, where there is no opportunity for parole or anihilation, alliviation or purging.

If you browse through the preachers featured here on SI, you will find they all believe in an eternal hell, have you noticed? Check David Wilkerson, Keith Daniel, Chuck Smith, Paul Washer, Zac Poonen and many others.

Universalism and Universal Reconcilition usually go along with popular, liberal and seeker friendly Christian movements, there you will find many like minded people, they may well now be in the majority of what calls itself Christian.

[The rich man for sure CANNOT cross that GREAT GULF. He must DIE with Jesus at His cross. When he is dead and has become "nothing”, then he will rise with the Lord Jesus in His resurrection to the glory of God and Christ will be his all in all.]

The rich man is already dead an in eternal torment.

also

πυρὸς αἰωνίου means eternal in its adjectival form, so here it is eternal fire, not agelong.

[It was through the cross of Christ that *** God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them *** (2 Cor. 5:19)]

This reconciliaton is a provision for all men, but not an something that all man consumate.

If men do not repent despite Christs reconciliation, they will be given over the to the judgment they themselves chose. That is the message of the cross. God has done everything for us, if we reject it, the wrath of God abides on us.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Here is an article by David Servant expressing his misgivings about the concept of eternal torment. He leans toward conditional immortality(annihilation) but his comments deserve consideration. He is respected in this forum.

https://www.davidservant.com/the-hell-debate-annihilationism/

Hi narrowpath,

if you defy what is plainly written, then there is nothing more I can say.

I have already given scripture to support my position and have commented on the scripture you gave.

You are free to disagree.

It is perhaps the most uncomfortable and hardest truth to embrace, but it is still truth to set us free and central to the gospel.

Jesus Himself is the Truth and central in the gospel of our salvation. And, Jesus Himself, and no one and nothing else, sets us free.

There are two types of fire which you are confusing:
God's refining fire for his saints and for those who might in their trials turn to God

and

God's retributive judgment after death, where there is no opportunity for parole or anihilation, alliviation or purging.

That is your theological assumption.

I have already given scripture to challenge this.

If you browse through the preachers featured here on SI, you will find they all believe in an eternal hell, have you noticed? Check David Wilkerson, Keith Daniel, Chuck Smith, Paul Washer, Zac Poonen and many others.

I have much respect for these preachers but God’s own Word remains the highest authority which I am sure all will agree.

Universalism and Universal Reconcilition usually go along with popular, liberal and seeker friendly Christian movements, there you will find many like minded people, they may well now be in the majority of what calls itself Christian

God’s Truth will never be nullified by any man’s error.

Rom. 3:4 -- Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar.

The rich man is already dead an in eternal torment.

also

πυρὸς αἰωνίου means eternal in its adjectival form, so here it is eternal fire, not agelong.

That would have been the tragic story. But because a great and wonderful Savior came, there will be a happy ending.

Jesus is the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14)

Ps. 106:8 ”“
Nevertheless He saved them *** for the sake of His name ***,
That He might make His power known.

----------

God’s house is a house of prayer.

In 1 Tim. 2:1-6, Paul exhorted the church to pray for all men for it is God’s desire for all men to be saved.

There is power in prayer.

If the prayers of a few godly saints in the Hebrides Revival saved almost everyone there, surely the prayers of all godly saints in the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ will save all men.

Will you pray?

----------

I will close this discussion with these words of Gamaliel:

Acts 5:38-39 ”“
"………for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it””lest you even be found to fight against God.”

----------

Blessings

Hi Jade, you and I have presented our cases, we have said what there is to be said and others, too.

Greg, would you mind to draw this this thread to a close?

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still

the final decree- no chance of reversing
This is where mercy comes to an end as there is no need of it in heaven and no opportunity for it in hell -

Hell is Necessary -

https://youtu.be/bF7t6rDLcFw

No one in this thread has said hell is not necessary.

Bro Todd,
I believe that this was just the name of this video.,...

"Hell is Necessary”

I believe that this brother just wanted to share the content.

I did watch it, and there was a lot said.

✝️

.............

elizabeth

Understood- but it seemed to be posted in response to what has been said. And no one has said hell is not necessary.

Oh.. ok, sorry Brother

.............
elizabeth

It is interesting as the first doctrine most of the cults deny is the doctrine of Hell.

The JWS remove the passage
Mark 9:44
where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’

Mark 9:43-45
New King James Version

43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life [a]maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to [b]hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched”” 44 [c]where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into [d]hell, [e]into the fire that shall never be quenched””

Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and [h]fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with [i]the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 "Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 "Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

Matthew 5:22 N-AFS
GRK: εἰς τὴν γέενναν τοῦ πυρός
NAS: [enough to go] into the fiery hell.
KJV: in danger of hell fire.
INT: to the hell of fire

Matthew 5:29 N-AFS
GRK: βληθῇ εἰς γέενναν
NAS: body to be thrown into hell.
KJV: should be cast into hell.
INT: be cast into hell

Matthew 5:30 N-AFS
GRK: σου εἰς γέενναν ἀπέλθῃ
NAS: body to go into hell.
KJV: should be cast into hell.
INT: of you into hell be cast

Matthew 10:28 N-DFS
GRK: ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ
NAS: soul and body in hell.
KJV: body in hell.
INT: to destroy in hell

Matthew 18:9 N-AFS
GRK: εἰς τὴν γέενναν τοῦ πυρός
NAS: and be cast into the fiery hell.
KJV: to be cast into hell fire.
INT: into the hell of the fire

Matthew 23:15 N-GFS
GRK: αὐτὸν υἱὸν γεέννης διπλότερον ὑμῶν
NAS: a son of hell as yourselves.
KJV: the child of hell than yourselves.
INT: him a son of hell twofold more than yourselves

Matthew 23:33 N-GFS
GRK: κρίσεως τῆς γεέννης
NAS: will you escape the sentence of hell?
KJV: escape the damnation of hell?
INT: sentence of hell

Mark 9:43 N-AFS
GRK: εἰς τὴν γέενναν εἰς τὸ
NAS: to go into hell, into the unquenchable
KJV: to go into hell, into the fire
INT: into hell into the

Mark 9:45 N-AFS
GRK: εἰς τὴν γέενναν εἰς τὸ
NAS: feet, to be cast into hell,
KJV: to be cast into hell, into the fire
INT: into hell into the

Mark 9:47 N-AFS
GRK: εἰς τὴν γέενναν
NAS: eyes, to be cast into hell,
KJV: to be cast into hell fire:
INT: into hell

Luke 12:5 N-AFS
GRK: εἰς τὴν γέενναν ναί λέγω
NAS: to cast into hell; yes,
KJV: to cast into hell; yea, I say
INT: into hell yes I say

James 3:6 N-GFS
GRK: ὑπὸ τῆς γεέννης
NAS: and is set on fire by hell.
KJV: it is set on fire of hell.
INT: by hell
https://biblehub.com/greek/1067.htm

Hades
https://biblehub.com/greek/86.htm
Matthew 11:23 N-GMS
GRK: ὑψωθήσῃ ἕως ᾅδου καταβήσῃ ὅτι
NAS: will you? You will descend to Hades; for if
KJV: shalt be brought down to hell: for if
INT: have been lifted up to Hades will be brought down for

Matthew 16:18 N-GMS
GRK: καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν
NAS: and the gates of Hades will not overpower
KJV: and the gates of hell shall not
INT: and [the] gates of hades not will prevail against

Luke 10:15 N-GMS
GRK: ἕως τοῦ ᾅδου καταβήσῃ
NAS: will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
KJV: shalt be thrust down to hell.
INT: to Hades you will be brought down

Luke 16:23 N-DMS
GRK: ἐν τῷ ᾅδῃ ἐπάρας τοὺς
NAS: In Hades he lifted up his eyes,
KJV: And in hell he lift up his
INT: in Hades having lifted up the

Acts 2:27 N-AMS
GRK: μου εἰς ᾅδην οὐδὲ δώσεις
NAS: MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR
KJV: soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer
INT: of me in Hades nor will you give

Acts 2:31 N-AMS
GRK: ἐνκατελείφθη εἰς ᾅδην οὔτε ἡ
NAS: ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR
KJV: left in hell, neither his
INT: was left in Hades nor the

Revelation 1:18 N-GMS
GRK: καὶ τοῦ ᾅδου
NAS: the keys of death and of Hades.
KJV: have the keys of hell and of death.
INT: and of Hades

Revelation 6:8 N-NMS
GRK: καὶ ὁ ᾅδης ἠκολούθει μετ'
NAS: Death; and Hades was following
KJV: was Death, and Hell followed with
INT: and Hades follows with

Revelation 20:13 N-NMS
GRK: καὶ ὁ ᾅδης ἔδωκαν τοὺς
NAS: which were in it, and death and Hades gave
KJV: death and hell delivered up the dead
INT: and Hades gave up the

Revelation 20:14 N-NMS
GRK: καὶ ὁ ᾅδης ἐβλήθησαν εἰς
NAS: death and Hades were thrown
KJV: death and hell were cast into
INT: and Hades were cast into

The problem is that if you dont believe Hell is forever then Heaven is not forever

KJV with Strong's
Revelation 22:5
And there shall be no night there and they need no candle __ neither light of the sun for the Lord God giveth them light and they shall reign for ever and ever

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 22:5 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
καὶ νὺξ οὐκ ἔσται ἔτι, καὶ οὐκ ἔχουσιν χρείαν φωτὸς λύχνου καὶ φωτὸς ἡλίου, ὅτι Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς φωτίσει ἐπ’ αὐτούς, καὶ βασιλεύσουσιν εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.

The thing is if Hell is not eternal then Heaven is not eternal as the same word is used in the greek

KJV with Strong's
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false. prophet are and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 20:10 Greek NT: RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Καὶ ὁ διάβολος ὁ πλανῶν αὐτοὺς ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρὸς καὶ θείου, ὅπου καὶ τὸ θηρίον καὶ ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης· καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.

If the devil is not tormented forever then we do not live with Jesus forever.

Chris Date and Phil Fernandes Debate Hell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaPz33dVPvc

Visions of Heaven and Hell Bunyan’s original title: My Sojourn to Heaven and Stopover in Hell)
https://amzn.to/3p0NmSK

Heaven and Hell by edward Donnelley
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0851518117/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i0

Heaven and Hell by R A Torrey
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Heaven-Hell-R-Torrey-ebook/dp/B00TYZMBRW/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=heaven+hell+r+a+torrey&qid=1637700725&qsid=260-9746551-3025029&s=books&sr=1-1&sres=0883684144%2C1629117862%2CB00W64BGZ6&srpt=ABIS_EBOOKS

Dom- the "worm does not die” passage is taken from the last verse of Isaiah, which is talking about literal worms eating literal corpses. Those worms in Isaiah are not alive and the corpses are dust.

Why must you read more into the words Jesus used in quoting directly from Isaiah? Isaiah wasn’t talking about eternal worms and neither was Jesus.

[Those worms in Isaiah are not alive and the corpses are dust.]

Todd - what made you not accept what is written here?

NOT means NOT
and
DIE means DIE

Something that does not die must be alive unless I am totally mistaken.

ISA 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall NOT DIE, NEITHER shall their FIRE be QUENCHED; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Are carcases dead or alive?

Can carcases be eternally tormented?

"And they [the righteous] shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” (Isa. 66:24)

Commentators often assume (without question) that Isaiah is presenting a vision of a place of eternal torment. Though there is actually nothing in the passage itself, or its context, to encourage this idea, their sole reason for doing so would seem to be a desire to harmonize the passage with Jesus’ words in Mark 9 that also (perhaps too hastily) are applied to hell. A comparison of Isaiah 66:24 with Mark 9:43 confirms that both passages are talking about Gehenna, and it is at least possible that both passages have in view the Valley of Hinnom and the AD 70 judgment upon Jerusalem (Romans tossed countless dead bodies into this Valley of burning in the slaughter of 70AD). If Jesus had this in mind, then Isaiah (whom Jesus was quoting) probably did as well. We might at least be skeptical of the suggestion that Isaiah was describing anyone experiencing torment in fire, since it is clear that the inhabitants of the place he described were not living, conscious people, as the traditional view of hell would have them. They are specifically referred to as "corpses.” Furthermore, they are said to be in a place where the righteous, apparently, may view and walk among them. And a closer look at the context of this passage from Isaiah (specifically chapters 60”“66) shows us that it seems to be speaking of the establishment of the new covenant order under Messiah, and the consequent obliteration of the old order (the temple system). In fact, this section specifically mentions Jerusalem and the temple being burned, as in AD 70. That these events have a first-century fulfillment was the view of the New Testament writers, who often quoted from this section, invariably applying its statements to their own times. Therefore, it remains plausible, even in the light of these strange phrases of immortal worms and unquenchable flames, to see Gehenna as a reference to the impending judgment coming upon Jesus’ contemporaries, from which they could escape only by embracing His kingdom. True believers fled Jerusalem before Romans invaded.

But it is a version of universalism that does not deny the tortures of hell for unrepentant sinners, perhaps for eons. It just holds that ultimately even the most stubborn will repent.

So the ultimate question is whether God’s punishments are remedial or for the mere sake of punishment. It’s is hard to fathom how an eternity of torment is justified by relatively few years of sinning. Not only that, but if hell is eternal there will always be sin and sinners.

_________________
Todd

Todd: Two things here that I would like to bring forward. First, it is not about "punishment", but rather about love, righteousness and judgement. All men have ample opportunity to live in intimacy with God, surrendered to Him and enjoying eternal life. This is what Paul lays out in the first three chapters of Romans.

Second, there are a number of people, me included, who do not believe that Hell is eternal torment for those who choose to go there, but rather destruction. Just as strong a case can be made scripturally for this as for eternal torment.

Just a couple observations.

Let me add one more item to the my last post. If a man entered your home and murdered your wife and children, and if the police and the judge knew full well with irrefutable evidence that this man did so intentionally and with malice, we would say that system was corrupt and evil that would allow this man to walk away without prosecution and judgement. If they said in replay that they were only loving the criminal, we would say their love was corrupt and twisted, would we not? Just a thought. Love cannot be separated from justice, nor justice from love.

Travis,

3 Questions:

(1)
Is it just that any descendant of fallen Adam should be eternally condemned because he cannot separate himself from the evil nature that he inherited from Adam that makes him a slave to sin and evil? No one has chosen to be born a sinner and every sinner sins because that is his birth nature. Is it fair?

(2)
Has Christ already paid the penalty of sin for ALL sinners (i.e., EVERY descendant of fallen Adam) or only for some?

(3)
If eternal LIFE is a GIFT of God (Rom. 6:23), does anyone need to do anything to earn it?

Rom. 11:35-36 ”“
Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things,
to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Travis-

I agree with you in your position regarding the final date of the wicked. But I have sympathy toward Universal Reconciliation. It too has strong scriptural support, much more so than most are willing to consider.

But I disagree with you in regard to punishment. If eternal torment is true it has everything to do with punishment. God will punish the wicked for a quadrillion years for their crimes and then He is only getting started. Those who believe in eternal torment believe that it is necessary due to God’s wrath against sinners.

If true, isn’t it very sad that God will always be burning with anger and He will never get what He wanted for Christmas.

Jade:

As to question #1, Paul answered this one with great plainness of speech in Romans 1:18-2:11. We cannot claim that God is unfair at all according to Paul. He has kindly and graciously offered to every man a relationship with Him. But that relationship is predicated upon total surrender to Him. And that is what most men refuse to do.

And that leads into question #2. Revelation tells us that Jesus was slain from before the very foundations of the world. It is not as if the Father and the Son looked at each other after Adam's fall and said, "Oops. We didn't anticipate that. Now what?" Before God created the heavens and the Earth, He already knew that Adam would surrender the dominion given to him by God to the enemy and the entire plan of salvation was already put in place. Remember also that Jesus was the agent of creation. He is the word, and nothing was made without Him. So when God said, "let there be", it was the Son who spoke. So He desired to manifest His presence and glory, His image, in His creation so much that He was willing before creating man to die for man whom He created. What kind of crazy, amazing love is that? But His sacrifice, though made for all, must be received, and man has a say in the matter. Man decides to either receive what was so graciously provided and be born again into his original destiny and purpose, or reject what has been provided and continue in sin. Its ultimately up to us.

#3 Eternal life is a gift, but we have to be careful how we apply that word. Grace means divine empowerment to accomplish by God's power in and through us what we cannot accomplish by our own works. Gift is juxtaposed with earning by works. For by grace (by the power of God) are you saved through faith, so it is the gift of God and not of our own works. The Jews sought to earn righteousness by keeping the law. Jesus said, "No guys, that is not how it works. Your works are not good enough. You must have my power." There is a HUGE requirement to salvation. If any man would come after me He must deny Himself, take up His cross, and follow me. We don't simply repeat a prayer and get a result. That won't work. We decide to surrender ourselves and accept His power to do what we can never do. That is grace.

Todd: Remember, I believe the wicked are destroyed in Hell, not tormented forever. As to a quadrillion years and then on to infinity, we have to remember that time itself, our concept of years, is part of the creation we live in. God is outside of time and sees the end from the beginning. Sure, we sing sons like, "when we've been there ten thousand years...", but will that really have meaning when we also are outside of time itself. I wonder? But that might have bearing on the discussion. I believe the wicked will have eternal destruction, meaning they will be destroyed and it is final. Many might disagree with me, but we would simply be debating meaning of scriptures and words at that point and what is the real benefit right? The issue is punishment.

God is not going to burn with anger forever. But if He is love, then He must deal with sin. Man has been given every opportunity by God. He gave His son, right? Man pulls the trigger on Hell. God just enforces their choice.

Hey Travis I understand your position and I do happen to agree.

I was just making the point that for those who hold to the concept of conscious eternal torment, punishment is a primary feature. God will always be punishing sinners in the worst imaginable way.

Hi Travis,

If a man entered your home and murdered your wife and children, and if the police and the judge knew full well with irrefutable evidence that this man did so intentionally and with malice, we would say that system was corrupt and evil that would allow this man to walk away without prosecution and judgement.

This is a description of every descendant of fallen Adam, including you and me:

Rom. 3:10-18 ”“
"There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
"Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
"The poison of asps is under their lips”;
"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace they have not known.”
"There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

None of us are more righteous in God’s sight.

But Jesus, who knew no sin, came, and was made to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Was God’s system corrupt and evil because wicked sinners are now allowed to walk away without prosecution and judgement?

1 John 2:2 --
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of *** the whole world ***.

Is not *** every sinner *** in the world now able to walk away without prosecution and judgement?

If they said in replay that they were only loving the criminal, we would say their love was corrupt and twisted, would we not?

Would you say that God’s love is corrupt and twisted because He loved sinners (Eph. 2:4-5)?

As to question #1, Paul answered this one with great plainness of speech in Romans 1:18-2:11.

Rom. 2:5-10 ”“
But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "will render to each one according to his deeds”:………… but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness””indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil……………

Comment:
---------
Paul spoke of wrath, judgement, tribulation and anguish. He did not list destruction and death.

Other scripture verses give hope even for these people, such as:

Isa. 26:9 ”“
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Ps. 30:5 ”“
For His anger is but for a moment,
His favor is for a lifetime;
Weeping may last for the night,
But a shout of joy comes in the morning.

I asked:

Is it just that any descendant of fallen Adam should be eternally condemned because he cannot separate himself from the evil nature that he inherited from Adam that makes him a slave to sin and evil? No one has chosen to be born a sinner and every sinner sins because that is his birth nature. Is it fair?

This is God’s justice:

Rom. 5:18-19 ”“
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to *** all men ***, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to *** all men ***, resulting in justification of life.
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

But His sacrifice, though made for all, must be received, and man has a say in the matter. Man decides to either receive what was so graciously provided and be born again into his original destiny and purpose, or reject what has been provided and continue in sin. Its ultimately up to us.

God has the power to make all things subject to Christ.

1 Cor. 15:28 ”“
*** Now when all things are made subject to Him ***, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

………Grace means divine empowerment to accomplish by God's power in and through us what we cannot accomplish by our own works………You must have my power………We decide to surrender ourselves and accept His power to do what we can never do. That is grace.

Agree.

Therefore, as eternal life is a gift it must come as a complete package i.e., complete with the gift of faith to appropriate the eternal life.

God has different calls.

In this present age, God is calling His church, "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of the One having called you out of darkness into His marvelous light” (1 Pet. 2:9). The church will be the glorious New Jerusalem in God’s New Earth.

The rest of mankind will be saved as mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:24-28.

Adam ate the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and brought death to all his descendants.

But our Saviour came, and LIFE will triumph over death and destruction.

1 Cor. 15:26 ”“
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

When death is destroyed, all who died in Adam will no longer be dead. All will be made alive in Christ (1 Cor. 15:21-22).

Rev. 21:10-11,21; 22:1-2 ”“
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper………And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass……Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for ***** the healing of the nations *****.

Jade: I am not interested in a long and drawn out theological debate, but I do see now pretty clearly where you are coming from. Let me say a couple of things that I noticed in your reply.

You made an interesting statement from your quote from Romans. You said that none of us are more righteous (I assume you man more righteous than the description in the verses quoted) in God’s sight but then you followed it with a verse that says that in Christ Jesus we are made the very righteousness of God, meaning just as righteous as God Himself. I am not sure if you caught what you were actually saying. But then you followed it up by stating that God was going to allow sinners to walk away without prosecution. What I notice is a statement that has been popularized in the modern church that, unfortunately, has caused countless chaos and destruction among the body. It is this. "We are all sinners."

You see, according to very plainly worded scripture, no sinner will walk away without prosecution. Not a single one. So, in order to escape prosecution we must no longer be sinners. And that is precisely what grace (God’s anointing and power to do in and for us what we cannot do by our own works) did for us.

Its right there in the two covenants. The first was weak and unprofitable because it was based on the efforts of our own flesh. God replaced it with a new covenant that relied entirely on the efficacy of the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ. The Jews stumbled at this and could not receive it. Christ's sacrifice had precisely the purpose in the scripture you quoted. He was made sin for us so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Its salvation! When we surrender our own efforts, repent of dead works, and submit ourselves to Him and to His will and way, we are made righteous by His power. Born all over again into new life in Him. Its Romans 6. He did for us what we could never do. He made us righteous. I am no longer a sinner, and praise God for it. I have a brand new identity. I am a saint, a man born again by the power of God, washed clean, made righteous in His sight. The enmity is gone. I now have peace with God through Christ.

Only the righteous man will have eternal life.

You see, we have created some terrible religious doctrines in the church. We have traditions of men that have been
substituted for the plain truth of the word of God. We have come up with ideas and tried to string scriptures pulled from our concordance word searches to justify those doctrines. But we need not do that. The word is plain and very clear. We only need to accept what it says.

Among these false doctrines is the idea that we are all just sinners and thank God for grace that overlooks it. Honestly, I would go so far as to call it a damnable heresy because it is causing many to lose out on true salvation. Nothing even remotely like that exists in scripture. We were sinners but the blood of Jesus paid the penalty for that sin and if we will share in his death (Romans 6 again), we will also share in His resurrection. We will no longer live (Gal. 4) but He will live in us. His life will be given to us. We will be declared righteous and walk in His power and in His glory. And as a result of having His life, we will also live eternal as He does and be with Him.
And the only way for us to gain this is for us to die. No sharing in His death, no walking in His resurrection.

Travis,

You see, according to very plainly worded scripture, no sinner will walk away without prosecution. Not a single one. So, in order to escape prosecution we must no longer be sinners.

I said (quoting 2 Cor. 5:21):
"But Jesus, who knew no sin, came, and was made to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

Jesus was made to be sin for us, so we are no longer sinners, and so escape prosecution.

Among these false doctrines is the idea that we are all just sinners and thank God for grace that overlooks it.

I did not say that.

I said (quoting 2 Cor. 5:21):
"But Jesus, who knew no sin, came, and was made to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

Christ's sacrifice had precisely the purpose in the scripture you quoted. He was made sin for us so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

That was precisely what I meant.

Only the righteous man will have eternal life.

Again, 2 Cor. 5:21 which I quoted is applicable. We have eternal life because of 2 Cor. 5:21.

We were sinners but the blood of Jesus paid the penalty for that sin and if we will share in his death (Romans 6 again), we will also share in His resurrection. We will no longer live (Gal. 4) but He will live in us. His life will be given to us. We will be declared righteous and walk in His power and in His glory. And as a result of having His life, we will also live eternal as He does and be with Him.
And the only way for us to gain this is for us to die. No sharing in His death, no walking in His resurrection.

This has been what I have been trying to share in many of my posts here on SI.

I am so disappointed to have failed as you have not even noticed.

Blessings

Hi Travis,

I think that you bring up something important by simply using the word "eternal."

To some, the idea of an "eternal" hell is unfathomable. It makes God out to be "unjust" according to worldly wisdom.

In fact, my wife and I recently watched the film C.S. Lewis: The Reluctant Convert. The film uses actors to portray Lewis at different parts of his life -- using words written or spoken at different times by Lewis himself.

At one point before his conversion, Lewis felt that the God he read about in the Bible seemed like a "villain" due to the concept of eternal rewards and eternal punishment. Indeed, human beings have a difficult time when it comes to reasoning God's ways. Job learned this in a very effective way.

However, I am struck by the concept of "eternal." Consider the following verse from the parable of the Sheep and the Goats: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matthew 25:46).

The Greek word for both "everlasting" and "eternal" is the same. The word is "aiōnios." Of the 71 times that this word appears in the New Testament, it appears as "eternal" or "everlasting" 67 times.

For instance, it appears in Mark 3:29 as "eternal: "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of ETERNAL damnation."

So, this same word is used to describe both the eternal nature of "life" for the righteous (after judgment) and the eternal nature of "punishment" for the unrighteous (after judgment). It's interesting that no one argues that the "eternal" nature of life with God is in question. It's the extent of the punishment for the unrighteous that some call into question.

However, it begs a question: What does "eternal" or "everlasting" in the context of time mean?

This is where I think that many believers view it in the wrong context. There is no real "time" in eternity. There is the Biblical saying that "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day." I don't think that this is specifically meant as math but for the sake of comparison of the infinite "now" of being with the LORD.

It's not that a quadrillion-quadrillion years is "just" punishment for those who lived their temporary earthly lives in sin and without God. Rather, there is no time in eternity. It is always "present" with the Lord (or without Him). There is no temporal dimension of "time" in the eternal state outside the physical laws of creation.

When we think of eternal life and eternal death in this way, it brings some pause into questions about how "just" it would be to render of verdict that casts someone to "everlasting fire" (Matthew 18:8) for all of eternity.

Chris are you suggesting those in hell (or heaven) are "frozen” in time or have no sense of the passage of time?

Maybe you can flesh out more what you mean.

Hi TMK,

Chris are you suggesting those in hell (or heaven) are "frozen” in time or have no sense of the passage of time?

Maybe you can flesh out more what you mean.

I'm saying that I don't think that we can fully grasp the concept of "eternity" (and its lack of time) -- especially as it applies to mortal human beings changed to immortality (I Corinthians 15:53-55).

My point is that "time" (as we know it) does not exist in eternity (at least in the sense of quantifiable earthly terms). It is difficult for our minds to grasp something that is so foreign and, well, beyond our understanding.

This is just something to think about in light of passages that talk about "everlasting life" and "eternal damnation." It will simply be the "ever" in "forever."

/ This is just something to think about in light of passages that talk about "everlasting life" and "eternal damnation." It will simply be the "ever" in "forever." /

That’s an effective way to articulate it 😇
according to scripture it is indeed "fixed” as it were and to flesh "ever” out of "forever” to illustrate that aspect is an accomplishment in itself :)

So (for me) it’s not as if God is personally, proactively torturing people eternally in hell.... rather He will have stopped "time” in the sense that we currently understand it (no more day and night) and states that it will be a fixed and therefore final (but continuous) situation.
Every parable, every warning, every discourse in scripture pertaining to this issue is consistent in this point, not to mention that no one, not even the son, knows when exactly that hour will come, but when it does.... the gig is up. It’s a bit like musical chairs... and Jesus promises you a seat at His table if you keep step with His spirit 🙏🏻

Chris-

I might be mistaken but you seem to be suggesting that perhaps a hell of eternal torment may not be as bad as we might imagine because we don’t know what "eternal” means.

I was going to let that pass but I guess I can’t.

That’s because it’s the proponents of eternal conscious torment who stress the never ending punishment with their talk of undying worms, etc. Proponents of that view want it to be as bad as possible, quite frankly as a scare tactic (which I still believe is ineffective).

In other words, I don’t hear proponents of eternal conscious torment trying to "soften” it. They want it bad, very bad. And they should be objecting to your attempt to perhaps soften it by claiming we really don’t know what eternal means.

In the context of eternal torment, proponents of that view say that it means exactly forever and ever followed by an infinity of evers.

You wrote ; " In the context of eternal torment, proponents of that view say that it means exactly forever and ever followed by an infinity of evers.”

Here ya go-

In the context of eternal torment, the scriptures clearly and repeatedly say that it means exactly forever and ever followed by an infinity of evers.

Fixed it ;)

Haha- well I disagree with how you are interpreting those scriptures, obviously.

But that wasn’t the point of what I said. It was in reference to Chris’s point that eternal may not mean forever as we understand that term.

I love you brother and very much miss your sharp wit and sense of humor so tho we may come to different conclusions, we are still one in Christ😁

Hi TMK,

I am not trying to diminish the weight of torment with "eternal damnation." There is nothing that could be worse. I'm just saying that those who try to reason away this concept or even interpret Scripture to explain away this concept often do so with the idea of God as a "villain" (as C.S. Lewis stated) or by assigning human notions of "justice" to God.

My point is not to the nature of Hell/Lake of Fire/Eternal Damnation. Rather, it's the perplexity of what "eternal" and "everlasting" means. As I said, the same Greek adjective is used for both. I don't know anyone who argues that "eternal life" would be temporary.

Then again, that's precisely my point. There is no "temporary" in "eternity" because the root of "temporary" is the notion of "time" (i.e., "tempus"). If time is a construct (or even a dimension) to the physical universe that God created, then it isn't present in the spiritual (or, at most, a "type and shadow" of the spiritual).

Remember the Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:41-46). When the righteous are judged, they go to "eternal life" -- which is to be "present with the Lord." It can be described as the "ever" and eternal "now" of being present with God. Conversely, the unrighteous go to "eternal punishment" -- which is an eternal "now" of punishment away from the Lord.

I suppose that I am simply bringing up the (what I feel is the likely) absence of time in eternity and what perspective this raises when it comes to thoughts on "eternal life" and "eternal punishment."

I get what you are saying regarding the construct of time and all that. But boiled down very simply it seems that time as experienced by us simply means duration. An experience of the passing of time must exist in heaven. If we see the Savior walking from point A to point B we are experiencing the passing of time. In John’s vision he saw elders casting their crowns. Watching the crowns leave their hands and fall to the pavement involves the passing of time.

Hi TMK,

That's an interesting thought -- but one that even physicists debate. We tend to think of time in spatial duration or as a "temporal" motion (always forward and never back being a rule by quantum physicists). It moves along a timeline.

Yet, eternity has no "timeline" in a sense. Earth and the created universe is separate from it. Even physicists ponder the mysteries of time during a "initial singularity." You can think of it like time progressing on a line in the universe but existing only as a state without it.

I spoke with one physicists from the SLAC last year regarding "time" (and specifically as it pertains to time dilation). He said that he sometimes goes to bed at night pondering and trying to fathom a pre or proto-universe without time.

That said: There is so much that we don't know about "time" let alone how it will exist in eternity. Even the most basic fundamental forces of nature (like gravity) are still a mystery to physicists. They seek a "grand unified theory" that could explain the discrepancies in the laws of physics.

The example you used is very good. John saw things yet to happen. He wasn't bound by the laws of physics (always forward and never back) because he went to see and view those things and return to himself at Patmos.

I sometimes feel that John was caught up into that eternal "state" of timelessness. People often debate whether John physically saw these things, saw a vision or whether he experienced both. I've wondered whether he was translated into the spirit and the eternal "now" where the limits and flow of time and the rest of the concepts of physics do not exist.

Ah, I digress!

My point isn't explicitly doctrinal or even a debate over the laws of physics. Rather, I simply want to inject in a discussion about eternity that there is so much that we don't know about time apart from the confines of our universe.

When we think about eternal damnation (regardless of all that is means), all that I want to do is implore others to "flee from the wrath to come" (Matthew 3:7). The best part of this is that all that is necessary to flee from that wrath is to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

If Hell is not Eternal then heaven is not eternal

https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_166.htm

Matthew 18:8 Adj-ANS
GRK: πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον
NAS: and be cast into the eternal fire.
KJV: to be cast into everlasting fire.
INT: fire eternal

Matthew 25:46 Adj-AFS
GRK: εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον
NAS: but the righteous into eternal life.
KJV: into life eternal.
INT: into life eternal

What do you mean by "eternal” Dom?

I mean if we are eternally with jesus then those that go to hell must go to hell eternally. I mean for an infinite amount of time.

// I mean for an infinite amount of time.//

Ok- I just sure if you had read what Chris had written about "eternity.”

I was referring to the greek word :)

Temporary is the same word as temporal in 2 Cor. 4:18. It means toward a period of time, or for a period of time. That is why our world is temporal. It exists as long as time exists. But there comes a point when time is no more. Time itself will come to an end.

We interpret the terms eternal or temporal from our own limited perspective inside of time. But what does that mean when time is removed from the equation. We cannot understand this because we don't have a grid for it. We only have our experience.

Another interesting point, I think. I saw someone say something about the penalty no longer being "scary" (that was not the exact wording but the tenor of the words) anymore if it is not perpetual and forever. But this, I think, reveals a way of thinking that is not healthy. The penalty of hell is not to be the motivating factor in following Christ. As if people are saying, "Wow, I really want to be a heathen, but that might mean burning forever, so I think I will save my sorry hide by repeating a prayer and getting out of that nasty consequence." I know I am being a little forward with that, but it is true. Whether one burns forever or is burned up and destroyed, the consequence is just as dire. It is missing out on eternal oneness with God through relationship with Christ. It is missing out on the eternal love dance (the perichoresis) that we can be a part of if we are in Christ (see John 17, end of the chapter). I find just as much scriptural justification for destruction as for eternal torment, and very plainly worded as well.

But doesn't that add some commentary to the OP? We have to ask the question, "WHY would one accept something like universalism in any form?" What emotions, what feelings drive the decision to go that direction. We know its not clear Biblical exegesis, because it has to be read into scripture or rather proof texts have to be "interpreted" to support it.

As I read some of the posts, it seems that one of the primary motivators was the question, "How can God who is a God of love relish in eternally tormenting those who did not follow Him?" In fact, I think that very question was asked at one point.

But God does not. Destruction is chosen by those who intentionally reject the offer of eternal life. Why do they reject the offer? Because it necessitates dying to self, giving up all you are, to gain all of Him. Very simple. Men choose to worship self rather than God and they get the result of their worship in the end.

Just some observations.

We have to ask the question, "WHY would one accept something like universalism in any form?" What emotions, what feelings drive the decision to go that direction. We know its not clear Biblical exegesis, because it has to be read into scripture or rather proof texts have to be "interpreted" to support it.

The same applies to those who advocate eternal torment or annihilation. What emotions, what feelings drive the decision to go these directions? These are also read into scripture, proof texts "interpreted” to support the beliefs.

The Bible is clear that it is God’s desire for ALL men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:1-6).

Why do the vast majority of Christians reject what God desires?

Are Christians even willing to pray for all men as scripture exhorts (1 Tim. 2:1-6)?

Evil is overcome with good --- Rom. 12:21.

Jade: That is true. We are motivated by so many different things that are not God, but instead come from our flesh and the experiences we have had. It is in recognizing those motives and dealing with them that we begin to move toward the truth.

After having quoted all scripture and taking it plainly at face value, and even going into the Greek I still wonder how one possibly can come to the conclusion that hell is not final and eternal?

As a clean room must be hell for a pig, why offer reprobate sinners an escape against their will and condemn them eternally to be with God whom they decided against and to be with saints who they disdained while on earth?