Omicron Variant is Mother Nature’s COVID-19 Immunity Booster

Omicron Variant is Mother Nature’s COVID-19 Immunity Booster

https://www.americaoutloud.com/omicron-variant-is-mother-natures-covid-19-immunity-booster/

"How do death rates from COVID-19 differ between people who are vaccinated and those who are not?”

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination

Hi TMK,
I think the report on vaccinated deaths v unvaccinated deaths is cherry picking when you compare and include everything.

Whats left out?
1.Deaths and injury from the vaccines
2.The death rate in countries that used Ivermectin and Vitamin D
3.Future vaccine related health problems
4.Why for instance does Japan have only around 150 deaths per million and the US has 2300 per million aprox?The Japaneese have the vaccines as other countries do?Why are these things left unanswered.
5.Can the people giving the figures be trusted?So far we have been told 10 different stories about them and none have turned out to accurate.
6.Their are more people dead in 2021 than in 2020 when their were no vaccines at all which is convienantly being blamed on new variants.

Moral issues
1.People being forced to take an injection they dont want
2.No open discussion or debate on a national scale regarding the vaccines which amounts to censorship.
3.No discussion allowed by mainstream media regarding the origin of the virus when the popondrance of evidence points to man a made virus in Wuhan China.This amounts to Censorship
4.No accountability on China to explain where it came from.
5.Reporting on deaths and injury regarding vaccines is supressed which accounts to censorship
6.No reporting or disparaging reporting regarding other medicines such as Ivermectin which amounts to censorship that has lead to deaths or some would say manslaughter of thousands
7.The loss of basic democratic rights.

Its very hard to trust the same people who have a vested interest in the vaccine either financially or politically.By comparing vaccine takers vs non vaccine takers is just cherry picking as is the list of countries they get their information from i.e notice they didnt use Japan as a source.
One last point we were told as soon as 70 percent of the population was vaccinated the crisis would be over......and that it would be a one of deal with the vaccines but then we learn that it isnt a one of thing....

urs staff

Whatever!

Hi TMK,
Trust in the World if you want but I made valid points thay you ignored,staff

Our Brother is speaking the truth:

God met our every need after being out of our home for over a year due to a catastrophic hurricane. The Lord will supply the needs of the saints regardless of what the economy does if our faith is in Him and in His promises, and not in the failing institutions and systems of man.

Why is the government not doing a study on natural immunity?

https://youtu.be/lJE7Tc8YGsc

Hi Abideinme,
Interesting Omnicron disscussion in GB regarding South Africa
Booster v Omnicron which is better?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr7LwSmf3NQ
urs staff

Why is the government not doing a study on natural immunity?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=covid+19+natural+immunity

As this quick PubMED search shows, there are MANY studies on natural immunity when it comes to COVID-19. Many of these research studies are funded in-whole or in-part by the U.S. government.

As is true with most medical research, much of it is conducted either by professional medical practitioners (unaffiliated with the government) and research from academic medical institutions.

The interesting thing is that most of this research is peer-reviewed. This is where research is presented through professional journals. This opens it for scrutiny from other doctors, researchers and medical academics. The goal is replication of the same results -- or strong opposition if the original findings aren't accurate.

Hi Chriss,
The problem is that their is no platform for strong opposition.If you report findings on youtube,facebook or twitter or the like its takedown ,forced down,deleted or its fact checked by non qualified politically motivated fact checkers.The mainstream media wont report it.
So where do you go from there?
Where are the studies on Ivermectin ,they are either not being done delibrately or are being censored and made fun off?Where are the studies on Vitamin D ,similiar.
Peer review is the way to go and is correct but it is being nullified and is almost irrelevant.urs staff

"The goal is replication of the same results -- or strong opposition if the original findings aren't accurate"

Hi staff,

The problem is that their is no platform for strong opposition.

If you report findings on youtube,facebook or twitter or the like its takedown ,forced down,deleted or its fact checked by non qualified politically motivated fact checkers.The mainstream media wont report it.
So where do you go from there?

These aren't government health agencies. These aren't part of academia. They aren't even peer-viewed medical organizations. Rather, these are SOCIAL MEDIA internet outlets.

I agree that this is wrong for them to do. I think that their "fact checkers" are inherently biased. Real science and research doesn't despise scrutiny. It welcomes it.

However, the notion of using social media as an outlet for "alternative" medical science isn't wise. After all, those outlets are controlled by the companies (and the biases of the board members) that own them. It certainly shouldn't be this way; but, it's an unfortunate state of the times.

Where are the studies on Ivermectin ,they are either not being done delibrately or are being censored and made fun off?Where are the studies on Vitamin D ,similiar.

Here are the PubMED search results for what you've asked:

Ivermectin and COVID:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Ivermectin+covid

Vitamin D and COVID:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=vitamin+d+covid

These studies ARE being conducted and presented for peer-review. I think that they are available for using (as links and citations) on social media too.

However, the interpreted "findings" of those studies need to be honest. If you read the various medical research studies on Ivermectin, then the person citing those studies needs to be forthcoming about any studies that show inherent medical risks or even negative outcomes.

We must also remember that a medical study isn't "proof" that something does or does not "work." It is also not "proof" of correlation or causation either. It's simply an OBSERVATION (or series of observations and data) that should be interpreted by analyzing these particular findings along with the research of others.

Otherwise, we run the danger of accepting the fallacy of logic for medical research in cases like "Lorenzo's oil." This brings up an issue that I have with some who selectively use sources to "confirm" what they believe.

For instance, I know people who try to link things like autism with vaccines. They will go to certain "medical study" sources (usually gathered outside of actual medical websites) in order to validate their concerns. By doing this, they fall prey to "confirmation bias."

Some people will cite one or two sources that seemingly validate their claims. Yet, they ignore the greater number of medical research that do not substantiate their claims. This is the medical equivalent of doing what the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes did with "straining a gnat" (but "swallowing a camel").

Some individuals search for a few "studies" to validate their already-held beliefs (confirmation bias) or suspicions but ignore the conclusions or the authors, the peer-review responses to that published study or the greater number of studies that seem to indicate a different result. This is a particular danger in early research.

Last year, someone posted a link to an article entitled "18 Reasons I Won't Be Getting a Covid Vaccine." I began reading and analyzing the claims of the person who wrote the article (Christian Elliot). Yet, I found it faulty almost to the core.

Mr. Elliot was not a medical doctor or researcher. He also quoted a medical research study somewhat out-of-context and for which he misinterpreted the team's findings. On a personal level, I find what Mr. Elliot published to be dishonest. I just think that we need to be very careful about doing the same thing that Mr. Elliot did.

There is certainly room for a biblical discussion over how believers should respond to things like COVID. However, we also need to be wise in how we present a medical-based attempt at reason and response. We cannot cite only certain medical studies and only then when they (kind of) validate our own biases or beliefs. We must only do this with honesty and sincerity.

My point is that some people are trying to "reason" their opposition to COVID vaccines. To substantiate this, they utilize a practice of citing a handful of medical studies to validate that opinion. In many cases, they don't study the actual research either. They have it interpreted for them by others. However, they also tend to ignore the plethora of similar studies results in a fallacy of reason.

Hi again staff,

Here is the FDA's response about using Ivermectin as a treatment for COVID-19:

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

In their response, they cite 83 studies. Some haven't started, some are ongoing and some are complete:

https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=COVID-19&term=ivermectin&cntry=&state=&city=&dist=&Search=Search

Please note that this website (https://clinicaltrials.gov) is owned and maintained by the U.S. government through the U.S. National Library of Medicine.

While they caution on what our response should be to medical studies, it isn't correct to say that the government is "hiding" anything (as some have suggested in the past).

The website simply includes a cautionary statement: "The safety and scientific validity of this study is the responsibility of the study sponsor and investigators. Listing a study does not mean it has been evaluated by the U.S. Federal Government."

Hi Chriss,
Thanks ,I think you are missing my point that the studies are useless unless they are made "fully" public ,that means that they are discussed in a non political way on main stream media and because they are not this means they are censored.
CDC and the EU also have lists and numbers of Vaccine Injuries but because they are not being discussed its as if they hadnt happened.This is censorship and its government censorship as well as the media.

Also their reasoning for not using Ivermectin are completely bogus mainly on safety concerns.The real con by the CDC is linking Ivermectin used for animals with Ivermectin used for humans.

Here is a link to Dr John Campbell from GB and at minute 21 he begins to discuss drug safety including vaccines and ivermectin.Ivermectin has one of the best safety records going.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckIQhGKyvd4
Dr John Campbell is a big supporter of the vaccines and
the links he refers to are mentioned in the video.
India in particular has widespread use of Ivermectin and they are saying it does work remarkably well

Below is a link from a left wing GB newspaper reporting on a judge in Ohio ordering a hospital to administer Ivermectin.
I linked the a left wing paper to show the corrupt way they reported the story and also the bogus CDC advice.The CDC is just saying whats true about any drug if you take the too much Ivermectin it can kill you.This is a completely defunct arguement.Like any drug if a doctor prescribes the drug then it will be more than likely the right dosage.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/31/ivermectin-covid-ohio-judge-orders-hospital
The Judge ordered 21 day treatment but another judge over ruled him and on day 14 they stopped the treatment even though the man was on deaths door the hospital did everything to stop its use.The man has since died and we will not know if he would have lived if he got the complete treatment as prescribed by an outside doctor.

They are hiding the info like a needle in a haystack so that people can say later "well we did issue our findings".
The average person does not look at the CDC website even if they know what they want to see,
urs staff

Hi Chriss
I think you are ignoring my main points,

Peer review studies dont mean anything unless they are acted on and the cant be acted on unless they are put out in the public through the media and when its being censored,it is not being debated and when its not being debated no pressure is applied for change to happen.This includes MSM,Youtube and facebook which are legitimate means of getting information out.You are demeaning the internet etc but I have had a thousand ads regarding the pandemic from the government on the internet.

Its hypocritical as well in my opinion because if you are are trying to "REASON" for vaccines and you are using a totally bogus CDC link about Ivermectin.If you can reason for vaccines why cant others reason against vaccines.
You are also biased in your outlook like everyone else and are not above it.
"We must only do this with honesty and sincerity"
CDC has neither been honest or sincere throughout this whole process and you are qouting them.
Are you not also indirectly claiming that the Government are blameless regarding the use of vaccines and that their is no censorship going on.
Also the majority of people against the vaccine like myself are saying two things
1 I am not taking it but you can if you want
2 I am not against vaccines but am against this vaccine.

One last thing is I think that anyone who is ultra pro vaccine is spiritually blind in this season and are only looking through the lens of the world.
Their is an evil behind this disease and their is an evil behind the vaccines and the vaccine policies.
That doesnt mean that the vaccines arent working and that its wrong to take them but their is still an evil behind them,
urs staff

Hi staff,

I understand what you're saying about this data being made "fully public" in the sense that it can be added on social media without being censored. I do believe that social media corporations are doing a disservice in censoring -- often incorrectly labeling something as "false" -- so many studies.

Social media outlets claim to do this because they feel that the general public aren't able to differentiate a single "study" that might be faulty with its premises, conclusions or (more often) the interpretation of the findings from that research. So, they add "fact check" labels (at best) or completely censor (at worst).

So, I fully support the sharing of concerns or even "alternate" research to foster discussion over vaccine safety and even COVID-19 issues in general.

At the same time, I don't think that it is correct for some to suggest that research is something that it really is not. The peer-reviewed studies that people cite are not a catch-all for medical truth. In fact, they are peer-reviewed for the sole purpose of validating or invalidating some or all of the findings and conclusions.

If a study determines that Ivermectin was safe and useful for treatment of COVID-19, it doesn't mean that the study is viable. It means that the researchers used a set of cases for which they observed and collected data. The authors of those studies arrive to a conclusion that MAY or MAY NOT be correct. This is why it is open for peer-review.

A peer-review journal will publish that research in one of its issues. Afterward, other medical researchers will scrutinize the presented data -- looking for errors. Some will conduct their own studies to see whether or not it is accurate or if there are any flaws.

The peer-review journals themselves will solicit correspondence too. It's like a "letters to the editors" section of researchers responding to the claims. Some might raise issues with the methodology or findings. Others might accept the findings on the basis of replication -- collecting similar results using similar (or slightly altered) methods.

This begs the question about things like Ivermectin. You cited a YouTube video of one doctor's thoughts about its use. You also cited a newspaper article regarding a judge issuing an order for a [doctor at a] hospital [being able] to administer it for the treatment of COVID.

However, as interesting as this is, it isn't anything other than anecdotal evidence of a conflict of various opinions.

To be very clear: There is a reason why the FDA doesn't approve the use of Ivermectin for treatment of COVID-19. Some allege some sort of conspiracy for this. In reality, it's likely for the very reasons that the FDA claim -- namely that it hasn't been successfully tested in human beings and is known to have very dangerous and even life-threatening side effects.

I know one friend who was complaining about how COVID-19 vaccines were being "tested on human guinea pigs." He suggested that the science wasn't sound because it was "too new" and "not enough studies were conducted." Yet, that same guy contracted COVID-19. He went to Mexico for Ivermectin treatment -- of which there weren't enough studies conducted about efficacy against COVID-19.

Ultimately, my friend was treated with Ivermectin and got better. It battled COVID for nearly three weeks. He doesn't regret not getting vaccinated and he credits the Ivermectin with his recovery.

However, he was a bit confused when I questioned why his battle with COVID-19 lasted just as long with Ivermectin treatment as someone who wasn't treated with anything. His symptoms were also worse than what multiple research studies have shown healthy individuals with the vaccine experience.

My point is that research isn't a deciding factor for a particular method of treatment. It takes quite a bit more. However, the vaccine itself has now been tested by (literally) billions of people.

Despite a few health outliers, the vaccine is deemed quite safe by medical researchers as a whole. So far, all of the major medical research shows that the vaccine is quite effective in diminishing the likelihood of contracting a particular strain of COVID-19 or reducing symptoms in those who do contract a "breakthrough" case.

The same cannot be said (at least yet) about Ivermectin. The peer review (i.e., scrutiny from medical researchers) is still waiting to come in.

Unfortunately, you're correct that the "average person does not look at the CDC website." However, this doesn't mean that an "average person" should instead listen to what amounts to medical op-ed that may correct, false or (often) somewhere in-between.

Even worse: I don't believe that believers should pass judgment upon a fellow believer for having a well-studied opinion that differs from their own. It is a terrible assumption to believe that someone who has studied the vaccines and believes that they are viable are somehow "spiritually blind in this season and are only looking through the lens of the world."

COVID-19 is obviously a bad thing. I've known people who have contracted it. I support people to have the right to refuse the vaccine -- and I don't believe that they should suffer any persecution for that refusal.

However, if you claim that there "is an evil behind the vaccines and the vaccine policies," you need to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN of what you're saying. You need to be aware that if you're wrong, then this statement is a LIE even if you were well-meaning. Such a statement is an OPINION for which it is vital that it include a precursor of "I believe..."

This is an unfortunate issue in the current political climate. President Trump was interviewed by someone recently and stated that he supported the vaccines and even a booster. Some of the people who heard this were bewildered. Some dismissed his statement because he is "old."

The Epistle of James mentions the need to bridle our tongues. Even well-meaning tongues can start a dangerous fire (and not the good kind of "fire" either).

There is certainly a lot of misinformation out there -- on all sides of this issue. However, the role of a Christian isn't to go with any particular "flow" but to maintain faith in Christ Jesus and point people to him. After all, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Unfortunately, some believers are pointing at those who don't get vaccinated and questioning their faith. Other believers are pointing at those who support the vaccines and questioning their faith. Both are wrong.

You wrote- "To be very clear: There is a reason why the FDA doesn't approve the use of Ivermectin for treatment of COVID-19. Some allege some sort of conspiracy for this. In reality, it's likely for the very reasons that the FDA claim -- namely that it hasn't been successfully tested in human beings and is known to have very dangerous and even life-threatening side effects.”

This made me literally laugh out loud, yet I indeed feel sorry for you or anyone who actually believes this, what’s more it requires me to question the cognitive ability anyone who actually believes this...

You speak of "confirmation bias” yet you display it fully with the above quote which is itself full of fear based (poorly researched and passive aggressive) mis-information.

You appear to be "riding the fence” but in fact you’re clearly advocating... thankfully you’ve stopped short of supporting the communist/fascist tactic of punishing those whom refuse to comply yet you (notably) also stop short of showing any real concern for those whom have already been subjected to such treatment and are continuing to endure it.

As a brother in Christ, if you can’t see what’s happening by now, it’s entirely possible you’ve been sealed over for judgement 🤷🏽”â™‚️
How can anyone who is born again, with the mind of Christ, not see that this "virus” and these "shots” have from the beginning, been part of an evil scheme???
I do not believe it is possible and those whom have succumbed to this deception are in a very precarious situation that, like Esau, may not find a place of repentance tho’ they may seek it carefully and with many tears...

It’s really quite simple,... IF you are born again, you don’t belong to you and have no right to make autonomous executive decisions regarding ones actions but are bought and paid for in full and Jesus has the right to command you - can anyone testify before Christ that Jesus Himself told you to take the advice of this world? Abdicating His provisions for those of this world? Likewise how much time daily/weekly are you engaged in prayer for those, who because of their faith, are being persecuted all over the world- being denied basic freedoms and even detained/imprisoned ?
Because IF you are born again, undoubtedly aware of the greater body of Christ and concern yourself with it, not to mention we are commanded to do so- tho’ I’ve yet to see or hear from any fence riders much less open advocates of these "shots” one ounce of concern for the persecution of our brethren around the world 🤷🏽”â™‚️

As for the questioning of faith,... I welcome it... anyone who doubts it should question it, following the scriptural protocol and come spend some time with me and pray together and we’ll see what’s what and who’s who real quick 🙏🏻💯

What I’ve witnessed is that many men inside the corporate church have been neutered and are far too distracted with the cares and concerns of this world to be bothered with advancing the kingdom, unless of course it benefits them/their ministry.

When Jesus rebuked the religious leaders of His day, He wasn’t gentle nor did He spare them the embarrassment that comes with it, in fact He said some pretty harsh things that by today’s standards would be considered "un-Christlike” 🤔 as the "modern” version seems to be more concerned with peoples feelings and social justice than His kingdom -
These people are liars and thieves, they use His name to promote their agenda under the guise of its authority,... but there is no authority in it at least none of His and their judgement will be without mercy 💯

Take heed, make sure you are in the faith, lest when you think you stand... you fall 🙏🏻

The Big Government COVID-19 Lie
By Ben Shapiro:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/the-big-government-covid-19-lie?al_applink_data=%7B%22target_url%22%3A%22https%3A%5C%2F%5C%2Fwww.dailywire.com%5C%2Fnews%5C%2Fthe-big-government-covid-19-lie%3Futm_campaign%3Ddaily_shapiro%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dhousefile%26utm_content%3Dop_ed%26fbclid%3DIwAR2T0gbLEvNdEQ4sdzrLYbqQpe7uBl2l2kP7TfaqqHulF0n-RafrkZsbjuw%22%2C%22extras%22%3A%5B%5D%2C%22referer_app_link%22%3A%7B%22url%22%3A%22fb%3A%5C%2F%5C%2F%5C%2F%22%2C%22app_name%22%3A%22Facebook%22%7D%7D

Hi Chriss,
I did say that the Doctor has clearly put links confirming the type of study done,how many involved whether it was blind ,double blind etc .
You are basically saying what big pharma are saying that unless they do the studies or approve the studies they are wrong.
If you being a believer are saying the stuff that you are which is complete "legalize" to confirm a position which in my opinion is spiritually blind, no wonder non Christians havent got a chance in knowing the truth if you being a Christian actually believe the stuff you are saying.
The reason you studied the vaccines is not to understand them but to back up a totally inaccurate postion.
You are saying basically that although we have censorship its ok dont worry peer review studies will come through in the end and the CDC are really honest and no one can have an a correct opinion unless it passes the censorship police.

You delibrately ignored my points which is unfortunate and you delibrately ignored the original post.
1 I wont take the vaccine but you can
2 I agree with vaccines but just not this one.

What the original post is saying is correct Omnicron is a good thing and any semi informed person will understand the reasoning.The weaker version is taking over the stronger versions and is wiping it out.

Their is no doubt in my mind and in my Spirit that the devil is behind both the pandemic and the vaccine.I dont need to study how evil the world is to know how evil the world is.

Here is cure ,he says ,it does work (not as good as I say it works mind you) but if the world accepts it I got them hooked on a way of doing things that means Im in control.
This whole pandemic is a battle for control ,whether the vaccine works or not is a side show.

You are supporting those who are spreading disinformation on Ivermectin,who have consistantly been untruthful and who are involved in a censorship campaign.Bridle your own tongue first and be honest and fair about the consequences of the disinformation by the CDC and the government censorship,
urs staff

Hi JFW,

I'll try to respond to each point. I'll also try to use as much grace as I can despite some of your harsh insinuations. This was one of the reasons that I mentioned the importance of bridling the tongue over such matters. It is easy to get carried away with various winds of doctrines (even earthly ones) and then judge one another according to a stance on such a position.

In some ways, I've seen views on COVID-19 and the vaccines almost like a new debate over non-essential doctrine. People seem to be inclined to take an almost dogmatic stance on the matter -- to the point of questioning someone else's salvation over such a matter.

In fact, I considered deleting my initial posts in this discussion because I'm aware just how dogmatic some can be with it. I have family members and friends who take a very dogmatic view on COVID and vaccines. Thankfully, I am able to speak about these things with love (and vice versa) so that it hasn't been so divisive with them.

You wrote- "To be very clear: There is a reason why the FDA doesn't approve the use of Ivermectin for treatment of COVID-19. Some allege some sort of conspiracy for this. In reality, it's likely for the very reasons that the FDA claim -- namely that it hasn't been successfully tested in human beings and is known to have very dangerous and even life-threatening side effects.”

This made me literally laugh out loud, yet I indeed feel sorry for you or anyone who actually believes this, what’s more it requires me to question the cognitive ability anyone who actually believes this...

Believes WHAT? That there is a conspiracy or that there is not a conspiracy? If you think that there isn't a conspiracy about this, then one only needs to look around at conspiracy-laden websites.

However, if you are questioning the "cognitive ability" of someone if they might carefully consider (without being immediately dismissive) what the FDA wrote about concerns over treating COVID-19 with Ivermectin (and the various medical research that they've posted), then you should easily be able to substantiate such a position.

It's strange but I've wondered whether the very people most willing to question medical research are also the ones who will visit certain sources online and gather outlier claims of "medical research" that might (seemingly) substantiate their own views.

As I pointed out, the research offered for peer review isn't a binding conclusion for a matter. Rather, it's a presentation of data gathered by (a person or, more often, a team of) medical researchers that is open up for REVIEW by peers. This allows the data, methods and conclusion of the author(s) to open their findings up for scrutiny, skepticism, disagreement and refutation.

Still, if you find it so "laughable" that you'd question the "cognitive ability" of someone who believes it, perhaps you can point out which things from the FDA that you disagree with.

Otherwise, is your issue with my statement that the FDA is concerned over people who are unaware of the potentially dangerous side effects of treating COVID-19 with Ivermectin? That's my view of what the FDA has written (from this webpage) about their position about Ivermectin treatment for COVID.

But, let me clear up something when it comes to "cognitive ability:"

All that I am belongs to the Lord. This includes my "cognitive" abilities. After all, the Lord is my Shepherd, my King, my Advocate and my Judge. Like Paul, I count all things a loss for the ability just to know and belong to Him.

Thus, my "cognitive ability," educational attainment, intelligence quotient, physical heritage and even understanding are all a loss -- "dung" -- so that I might "gain Christ" (Philippians 3:8-16). After all, our righteousness doesn't come through any of this or even from the law of the Old Covenant. It comes only through faith in Christ Jesus.

I don't feel a need to defend my cognitive ability because it is nothing to me with Christ Jesus in mind. At the same time, all that I have belongs to him. I'll use what I have for his glory as I hope that the light of His face shines on my path and guides/directs my steps.

However, when you write the following:

"it requires me to question the cognitive ability anyone who actually believes this..."

"As a brother in Christ, if you can’t see what’s happening by now, it’s entirely possible you’ve been sealed over for judgement"

"How can anyone who is born again, with the mind of Christ, not see that this "virus” and these "shots” have from the beginning, been part of an evil scheme???"

"I do not believe it is possible and those whom have succumbed to this deception are in a very precarious situation that, like Esau, may not find a place of repentance tho’ they may seek it carefully and with many tears..."

"It’s really quite simple,... IF you are born again, you don’t belong to you and have no right to make autonomous executive decisions regarding ones actions but are bought and paid for in full and Jesus has the right to command you - can anyone testify before Christ that Jesus Himself told you to take the advice of this world?"

"Because IF you are born again, undoubtedly aware of the greater body of Christ and concern yourself with it, not to mention we are commanded to do so- tho’ I’ve yet to see or hear from any fence riders much less open advocates of these "shots” one ounce of concern for the persecution of our brethren around the world 🤷🏽”â™‚️"

"When Jesus rebuked the religious leaders of His day, He wasn’t gentle nor did He spare them the embarrassment that comes with it, in fact He said some pretty harsh things that by today’s standards would be considered "un-Christlike” 🤔 as the "modern” version seems to be more concerned with peoples feelings and social justice than His kingdom -
These people are liars and thieves, they use His name to promote their agenda under the guise of its authority,... but there is no authority in it at least none of His and their judgement will be without mercy 💯"

"Take heed, make sure you are in the faith, lest when you think you stand... you fall 🙏🏻"

If these things are directed at other believers (whether you consider them authentic or not) on the basis of what they feel about this pandemic or a the various vaccines created to counter it, then you need to stop and carefully consider what you've written.

Read your own words. Even if you believe what you've written (which I do not doubt), the underlying judgment behind it is still wrong. For one, there is no room for discussion if you consider yourself (by your own cognitive ability) to be right and there is no possibly that you're wrong in even a part of what you've concluded. It comes across that you've leaned on your own understanding over all of this and then passed judgment on anyone who doesn't accept that understanding of yours. That is very dangerous.

Now, please allow me to go on and address a couple of other things that you've written.

You speak of "confirmation bias” yet you display it fully with the above quote which is itself full of fear based (poorly researched and passive aggressive) mis-information.

You're making several accusations here. You wrote that I am displaying "confirmation bias." Please show me where.

You say that what I wrote is "fear-based....misinformation." Please show me where.

You claimed that what I wrote was "poorly-researched" and "passive aggressive." How so?

For one, I didn't present my own research. I really didn't go in-depth with my own conclusions from my own research. I merely supplied little more than a link to the FDA website and pointed out the various medical research studies available for review on these matters.

As for "passive aggressive:" I was not being either passive or aggressive (let alone "passive aggressive"). I don't think that the FDA website was necessarily doing that either.

The FDA website was referring to those who self-treat with Ivermectin. There are obvious instances in which a doctor might prescribe Ivermectin for other things. There might be a doctor who even offers it to people near-death from COVID as a last-resort. However, as a whole, what the FDA states on that webpage about Ivermectin is accurate.

Let me also be very clear:

- I do NOT believe that anyone should take a vaccine (or any medicine) that they haven't personally researched.
- I do not believe that anyone should be persecuted for refusing to take a vaccine.
- I also think that there is a legitimate and viable argument AGAINST a vaccine for healthy individuals who are not at great risk even if they contract COVID-19.
- I am opposed to social media outlets pretending to be a harbinger of "truth" by censorship of any ideals that their self-appointed fact-checkers oppose.

If you want to engage in a conversation of regarding specific medical research studies and conclusions of those studies, then I am fine with that. Let me know. However, I would ask that we lay aside pretenses and approach this in a manner of conversation that is seasoned with grace and not one of rigid dogma over personal opinions over medicine.

Hi staff,

You are basically saying what big pharma are saying that unless they do the studies or approve the studies they are wrong.

I even question the CONCLUSIONS of medical researchers -- which is exactly what peer-review is about. Medical research is about observation and the collection of data in that observation. The researcher will offer a conclusion (usually found in the abstract and more clearly in their stated conclusion at the end of their published research).

However, peer-review is where others examine that research data, methodology and conclusions and scrutinize it. In fact, "Big Pharma" is made up of a lot of "little" individuals who research. They don't make corporate business decisions. They don't lobby the government. They are simply the scientists and medical researchers who conduct research and search for medical solutions. They are employed by the companies that hire them for this purpose.

When I read medical research (available for all to read and examine through the individual journals or databases like PubMed), I do not "believe" what I read. I simply examine the data gathered and the methods used for the research. I read the conclusions and consider how they might be wrong. If the research is replicated (or improved upon) by others, then this lends credibility to the initial findings.

That's basically how medical research works. I think that it is a good approach to all research and claims -- whether from medicine, pharmacy, science or elsewhere in life. We should always TEST EVERYTHING and only HOLD ON TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD (I Thessalonians 5:21).

If you being a believer are saying the stuff that you are which is complete "legalize" to confirm a position which in my opinion is spiritually blind, no wonder non Christians havent got a chance in knowing the truth if you being a Christian actually believe the stuff you are saying.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I don't go about "preaching" about medicine or vaccines. I am sharing here (a rarity for this). When I go to non-Christians, I don't bring them notions about medicine or vaccines. Rather, I present Christ to them.

The reason you studied the vaccines is not to understand them but to back up a totally inaccurate postion.

This accusation isn't true. To be very clear: In this case, studied vaccines because I wanted to know as much as I could about them BEFORE I would even consider them for myself or my family.

I am a person that many friends and family members turn to for opinions over different matters. When it comes to things like this, I was deeply concerned (prayerfully so) about the danger of giving a bad response. I was fully aware that I didn't want to lead someone down a wrong path over this.

Sure enough, my phone began ringing over questions about the vaccine. At first, my initial responses were quite frank: "I don't know. I am still studying this."

I had no tendency toward confirmation bias because I didn't trust anything from the get-go. I was fully prepared to reject any of the vaccines or various treatments that some people were proclaiming or peddling. So, your accusation that I studied this to "back up a totally inaccurate position" is, well, simply untrue. I hope that this clears it up for you.

You are saying basically that although we have censorship its ok dont worry peer review studies will come through in the end and the CDC are really honest and no one can have an a correct opinion unless it passes the censorship police.

No, that is not what I am "basically" saying. I am saying that social media censorship is WRONG. In fact, I hope that some private citizens will sue the various social media companies for libel over their "fact checking" that is wrong. I believe that those social media outlets are agenda-driven in many instances.

I also did not "basically" say that "the CDC are really honest." In fact, I didn't mention the CDC at all. I did bring up the FDA and their response over Ivermectin treatment for COVID-19. However, I didn't even offer my own conclusion of whether or not I agree with them.

I simply offered the link to the FDA webpage on Ivermectin treatment for COVID-19 in order to clarify what it is that they are saying. This is so that we have an actual basis for determining potential reasons for why they are saying it. There are people alleging conspiracies in all of this. Therefore, we need to know the basis for those conspiracies. If someone brings up claims about a conspiracy regarding the suppression of Ivermectin as a treatment, then it's at least honest to examine what the FDA has actually said about it.

You delibrately ignored my points which is unfortunate and you delibrately ignored the original post.
1 I wont take the vaccine but you can
2 I agree with vaccines but just not this one.

Just because I didn't address something you wrote (or even the original post), it doesn't mean that I "deliberately ignored" what was posted.

Rather, in my first post to this discussion, I simply provided a link for AbideinHim over a question that he asked (i.e., "Why is the government not doing a study on natural immunity?"). The link that I provided (from PubMed) lists a total of 2,423 research studies on natural immunity and COVID-19. You responded to that post (directed to AbideinHim) and this began our own discourse.

What the original post is saying is correct Omnicron is a good thing and any semi informed person will understand the reasoning.The weaker version is taking over the stronger versions and is wiping it out.

Actually, the original post (again by AbideinHim) simply links to an article at AMERICA OUT LOUD. That article by Dr. Peter McCullough (a cardiologist) is interesting. Dr. McCullough's conclusion is certainly worth pursuing -- as he quotes two recent peer-review submissions on the Omicron variant of COVID-19.

One study from the University of Hong Kong is entitled "HKUMed finds Omicron SARS-CoV-2 can infect faster and better than Delta in human bronchus but with less severe infection in lung." The other study, funded by the Chan-Zuckerberg Initiative (an initiative created by the founder and CEO of Facebook), is entitled "Increased risk of SARS-CoV-2 reinfection associated with emergence of the Omicron variant in South Africa."

I read these studies (one is still pre-publication). I find them fascinating. However, I do not find a conclusion in them that Omicron is "taking over the stronger versions and is wiping it out." Rather, they are pointing out that the Omicron variant is more rapidly infectious but seems to show that this particular variant is also less severe on the human pulmonary system. I think that this can be a good sign (if other research replicates these findings).

Their is no doubt in my mind and in my Spirit that the devil is behind both the pandemic and the vaccine.I dont need to study how evil the world is to know how evil the world is.

In fact, I am troubled with the words "no doubt in my mind." This degree of (personal) certainty is an issue that I think that we all experience. The key for me is that I think that we should be able to understand that "I don't know" is an acceptable position. We don't always have to stake a position on issues for which we haven't thoroughly researched.

Over the years at SermonIndex, there have been people who have come and gone who staked this "no doubt" position on all manners of doctrinal issues -- many of which aren't considered to be essential in the Scriptures. One believer has "no doubt" about an opinion while the other has "no doubt" about an opposite opinion. This inevitably led to many conflicts -- to the point that threads were shut down by our moderators.

This is why I believe that it is important to know the limits of our "own understanding" of matters. As brilliant as a person might be, they don't know everything. This is true of medicine. It is true of science. It is also true of what some deem to be "truth" from Scriptures -- when so many believers may have differing opinions.

Sometimes, it is considered "riding the fence." However, I disagree. Sometimes, I am on neither side of a fence -- let alone standing or sitting on it. Sometimes, we simply don't know with enough certainty to reach a conclusion. If anything, it is honest and pure to be this way -- even if by sharing it, it does invite criticism or finger-pointing.

In the biographical sketch included in The Banner of Truth's publication of A CHRISTIAN IN COMPLETE ARMOUR (pressed by David Wilkerson's ministry), we find the following written about author William Gurnall:

"Herein lies the reason so little has been written about William Gurnall in the annals of church history. Though he was undoubtedly puritan in both doctrine and practice, he did not secede with the group with which he had generally agreed -- a choice not likely to make him a favorite with either of the two great religious parties into which England was divided.

A neutral is never popular; each party is offended at him for not casting his weight into their scale. He [Gurnall] was just the man to be disliked and slighted by both sides."

Sadly, I've felt reproach from some if I don't take a position on something that someone else feels like I need to take a position.

For instance, I still cannot say with "no doubt" a position on eschatology (i.e., pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib rapture). Some churches require adherence to a particularly "we believe" school of thought for active or inclusive membership. I've read the Scriptures intently for this but have still never achieved a finite position on the matter.

So, my "position" (as it were) is to simply "watch" and "be ready" by persevering in Christ until the end. I don't believe that my faith teeters in the balance unless I take a position. I might lean strongly one way, but I am not "without doubt" to proclaim it as a truth. As such, I simply want to continue walking with Christ. However, like what was written about William Gurnall, I find that this neutrality isn't welcomed by some.

Please believe me when I say that I am neutral when it comes to COVID-19 and vaccines. I do believe that history and the collected data/evidence tends to show that vaccines work in general. This vaccine was particularly concerning given its nature (mRNA) and whether it would be safe or even effective. So, I studied all-the-more intently over it.

I have some strong opinions about the origin of COVID-19 and whether those responsible should be held financially and economically culpable in some sort of tangible way. I also agree that there is a "battle for control" when it comes to a national, state, local or even corporate response to COVID-19 and the vaccines. I strongly oppose any control by government, industry or even business.

You are supporting those who are spreading disinformation on Ivermectin,who have consistantly been untruthful and who are involved in a censorship campaign.Bridle your own tongue first and be honest and fair about the consequences of the disinformation by the CDC and the government censorship,

No, I am not supporting "those who are spreading disinformation on Ivermectin." I am not supporting those "who have consistently been untruthful." I am certainly not supporting those who "are involved in a censorship campaign." If we want to talk about the need to be "honest and fair," then let's be clear that these things that you accused me of are NOT TRUE.

- I don't embrace disinformation.
- I don't support things that aren't truthful.
- I don't support censorship by social media -- or how it is weaponized for the purposes of agenda.

Chris-

You are very gracious in providing such a long response, especially with comments like this directed to you:

//As a brother in Christ, if you can’t see what’s happening by now, it’s entirely possible you’ve been sealed over for judgement 🤷🏽”â™‚️
How can anyone who is born again, with the mind of Christ, not see that this "virus” and these "shots” have from the beginning, been part of an evil scheme???
I do not believe it is possible and those whom have succumbed to this deception are in a very precarious situation that, like Esau, may not find a place of repentance tho’ they may seek it carefully and with many tears...//

They’ve been directed to me as well.

If the devil is behind the pandemic, his purpose is to divide the church. He wins again!

Hi Chriss
I think the majority of SI knows what peer review is and they also know information about the pandemic is being buried,belittled and censored.It doesnt matter what a peer says if what he is saying is being censored or if the results of studies that doesnt suit the narrative are being put on page 40 on a google search.
If people want to tell it straight they would mention censorship and the dishonesty in the government over vaccines and vaccine mandates as well as linking to FDA and CDC.
The vaccines did not work as billed because the makers of the vaccines told lies.
They told lies about Ivermectin and they told lies about Vitamin D.
They told lies about masks.
They told lies about the origins of the virus.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,its a duck.

If people want to use this particular vaccine go ahead,nobody is stopping you but the truth behind the pandemic,the mandates and the vaccines has to be told too.
This is a vaccine programme unlike any programme ever seen before and the forcing of vaccines is supported mostly by left wing politicians.The same people who support Abortion,gender equality,gay rights and the destruction of the Church.They score minus one on the trustworthy scale.

If you link to a page that is clearly disinformation then is it not supporting disinformation?
urs staff

Hi TMK,
This post wasnt about vaccines,it was about the Ominicron variant.
Their was no need for a discussion about vaccines except perhaps on taking a booster versus getting omnicron.Which is better?
The Omnicron variant looks at this stage to be a great thing and could wipe out the serious effects of the pandemic and should be celebrated,
urs staff

We will all get Omicron, vaccinated or not. My son has it (vaccinated) but has no symptoms.

I am in agreement that Omicron is a good thing for the ones it doesn’t kill. They say if you see vaccinated and get it you will be super immune.

Brother I love you and have no ill will towards you in any fashion, my intention is to be more matter of fact than anything else, tho you are at liberty to take it as you will, I’m not responsible for what or how you hear what I say-

Having said this, the whole 2nd pg of this thread is (for some reason I don’t understand) is so large in size and scale that it makes quite a chore to read. This is not the case on any other part of SI or even this thread,... just the 2nd pg 🤷🏽”â™‚️
I’ve tried all day to resolve with everything I could imagine, even rebooting my (admittedly old) phone in an attempt to reconcile tho as yet nothing has provided remedy, perhaps someone could help 🙏🏻

In any case, I stand 💯 by every word - nothing personal with you, I’m just being honest-

Regarding the issue of dividing over things like this, I believe it is completely necessary after appealing to no avail.
The gender dysphoria issue is (for me) the same and is nonnegotiable💯
That is not to say that a person who suffers from this particular deception or any other variant, should be treated different or inhumanly, rather they should be shown the love of Christ in word and deed so far as they are willing. However those people who are not suffering from gender dysphoria and yet appease it by not only themselves pretending that a person who identifies as something differing from their biological reality is not suffering from mental illness, but they seek to normalize it (mental illness) and require that others also pretend that it is normative or else face retribution.

Now, what I am saying is that it is not possible for a born again child of God to go along with this charade much less defend it or even worse, promote it. There is no scenario where Jesus is going to run interference for much less promote and require others to comply or face penalty for not going along with this charade. In fact everything written regarding His ministry would require, like Paul’s writings, us to expose the darkness that seeks to enslave. Again (for me) this "pandemic” as you cal it, is as clear and bears lil difference from the gender dysphoria deception. Hence questioning cognitive ability and/or wether a person is truly born again🤷🏽”â™‚️
Perhaps they are a good and godly man, faithful in what he knows ... a religious man , a Nicodemus- and yet they cannot see the kingdom.
But I will not deny what is clearly seen, and from the beginning my position has been settled.

Chris, I have no quarrel with you or Todd or anyone else for that matter however I will oppose what is clearly deception and will do all that the grace of God allows to expose it in every instance it is encountered.
So to be clear, this not an attempt to convict nor convert, that’s Holy Spirits job and He’s really good at being God and doesn’t need my help, but He does command me to reprove and rebuke without hesitation and with full faith 🙏🏻

It was apparent, by what I managed to glean, you are occupied with "facts” and yet my occupation is faith and in all honesty,- all the facts in the world won’t get you to where you wanna go, but just a mustard seed of faith will take you straightway 😇

Many People are having adverse effects from the boosters and vaccines, but why isn’t the CDC and News media reporting this? Probably for the same reason that they are not talking about the studies on natural immunity being more effective than vaccines.

This is God’s criterion for the reprobate and for the faith that fails the test:

2 Cor. 13:5

KJV ”“
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

NASB 1977 ”“
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you””unless indeed you fail the test?

Hi staff,

I didn't mean to come across as condescending when it came to a short explanation of peer-review (and the process). However, you'd be surprised by how many people aren't aware of what peer-review is -- or why it is important.

Moreover, a full understanding of peer-review often serves to diminish some of the conspiracy theories about research in general. When people come to realize that medical research is largely independent of government, academia and even corporations. Otherwise, it is funded primarily by one research group within competing sectors (or sub-sectors).

The good news is that, while social media and even "news" outlets might suppress some information, the actual research itself is available through the journals themselves (online or in-print), academic search engines or places like PubMed.

Obviously, the content can be a bit cerebral and even confusing for people who are unaccustomed to medical jargon and terminology. It can also be confusing for those who have difficulty with math or reading the language(s) in which the research is published. Still, the research is, indeed, available for all -- to browse and even scrutinize.

In fact, I wouldn't use "regular" Google to find this type of research. If someone isn't able or willing to search through databases like PubMed or Ovid, they can use Google Scholar. It's located at https://scholar.google.com/.

A simple search for "Covid" and "Ivermectin" offered 8,540 results:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=covid+ivermectin&btnG=&oq=covid+

If people want to tell it straight they would mention censorship and the dishonesty in the government over vaccines and vaccine mandates as well as linking to FDA and CDC.

I have no problem with people who "tell it straight." However, if an accusation or claim is made, then the burden is on that person to substantiate it. This would require first-hand proof (and not hearsay from people who simply or spread the claims). For instance...

The vaccines did not work as billed because the makers of the vaccines told lies.

They told lies about Ivermectin and they told lies about Vitamin D.

They told lies about masks.

They told lies about the origins of the virus.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,its a duck.

This can be true. However, it means that the "sight" of the person who is observing what they think to be a "duck" is correct. If their "sight" is faulty (or accompanied by the fog of "suspicion" or intrinsic biases), then such proclamations based upon that observation might not be accurate.

If people want to use this particular vaccine go ahead,nobody is stopping you but the truth behind the pandemic,the mandates and the vaccines has to be told too.

I have no problem with the "truth" being told. In fact, I eagerly seek it. However, we must be led of the Lord so that we can rightly divide truth from anything else (including well-meaning yet not-entirely-accurate assumptions).

This is a vaccine programme unlike any programme ever seen before and the forcing of vaccines is supported mostly by left wing politicians.The same people who support Abortion,gender equality,gay rights and the destruction of the Church.They score minus one on the trustworthy scale.

I agree that this entire ordeal has been different. For one, it is a pandemic that has undoubtedly been politicized (often by all sides of the political spectrum). On the other hand, it is the first worldwide pandemic of this impact since the Spanish Flu influenza pandemic during the First World War. However, this is also the first world-wide pandemic in history in which vaccines have been widely available.

It is disingenuous to say that vaccines are primarily supported by left-wing politicians. The push for COVID-19 vaccines began under President Trump through "Operation Warp Speed." Liberal politicians actually said that it would be "impossible" to develop a vaccine in the time frame hoped for by President Trump.

Even the government response to COVID-19 -- from various shutdowns, limits of travel, stimulus checks, etc. -- all began during President Trump's administration (and with the support of both major political parties).

In fact, President Trump attempted to force a travel and work restrictions in the New York area -- which prompted Cuomo, De Blasio and others to complain that it was unconstitutional and that they would fight it in court. Within months, the pandemic hit the New York City metroplex hard (particularly with the nursing homes). Democrats also complained in the first month of the pandemic (just weeks after it was first identified) that the travel moratorium with Asia implemented by President Trump was "racially motivated."

So, it isn't just "left-wing politicians" who support the vaccine or a coordinated government response to the pandemic. Many who oppose abortion, radical feminism, LGBTQ activism and legislation against the church also support the vaccine or a government response to it.

Personally, I believe that hindsight will be (as it usually is) 20/20. Over the next few years, I suspect that economists, public administrators and medical scientists will conclude that there were better ways to deal with the pandemic than what has been done over the last two years. I suspect that they'll conclude that things could have been done to protect those who were most at-risk rather than shutting down society for everyone else who wasn't quite at-risk.

Hi JFW,

First off, I'd point out that the issue with the second page of this discussion thread is skewed due to the link posted by AbideinHim. He posted a link to an article from Ben Shapiro at Daily Wire. However, it was a long link (because it was taken from a Facebook link).

AbideinHim's link can be edited and shortened to this:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/the-big-government-covid-19-lie

This shortened link address (to the same article) will likely fix the issue on the second page of this thread.

In any case, I stand 💯 by every word - nothing personal with you, I’m just being honest-

Don't get me wrong: I appreciate honesty. However, someone can obviously be "honestly wrong" -- particularly when it comes to judging other believers. We will all be called into account by our Judge for what we say, write or type. My wife and I were studying 2nd Peter this morning. That last letter of Peter -- written shortly before he departed this world -- reminds of us this. It certainly should give us pause.

The gender dysphoria issue is (for me) the same and is nonnegotiable💯
That is not to say that a person who suffers from this particular deception or any other variant, should be treated different or inhumanly, rather they should be shown the love of Christ in word and deed so far as they are willing. However those people who are not suffering from gender dysphoria and yet appease it by not only themselves pretending that a person who identifies as something differing from their biological reality is not suffering from mental illness, but they seek to normalize it (mental illness) and require that others also pretend that it is normative or else face retribution.

Now, what I am saying is that it is not possible for a born again child of God to go along with this charade much less defend it or even worse, promote it. There is no scenario where Jesus is going to run interference for much less promote and require others to comply or face penalty for not going along with this charade. In fact everything written regarding His ministry would require, like Paul’s writings, us to expose the darkness that seeks to enslave. Again (for me) this "pandemic” as you cal it, is as clear and bears lil difference from the gender dysphoria deception.

As you point out, I think that this is certainly an interesting comparison-contrast between the COVID-19 pandemic and the latest media hysteria over "gender dysphoria."

It is interesting in that the research behind "gender dysphoria" is not the basis of the radical pushes by LGBTQ zealots in politics and the media. In fact, "gender dysphoria" is still viewed as a mental disorder by most actual medical researchers (at least those who are not guided by preexisting biases).

Yet, the issue today in gender dysphoria is not medical but political. It is pushed by the media and politicians through hysterics -- using the notion that "transgender" individuals are "victims" of a society that only sees the two genders that people are born with.

Recently, I was engaged in a debate with a non-believer about gender pronouns. This man was worked up into a frenzy because I referred to him as a "he/him" without first asking him about his "preferred pronouns." I told him that I based it upon his very apparent biology. I then asked him if he considered himself to be a "male." He said, "Yes, I think so."

I then told this man that there didn't seem to be a problem in the sense that I got it right (according to his persuasion) anyway. He said that it was still a problem because I was basing pronouns upon "assumptions."

I told him, "No. I am basing it upon accepted customs, norms and, yes, SCIENCE for thousands of years." I then explained that I understood that some people are abnormal (of which he took offense until I told him that "abnormal" means "away from the norm"). However, I pointed out that society as a whole cannot be dictated by those who are abnormal within it.

I pointed out that some people are born with six fingers on each hand (it is a rare birth defect). Yet, it is still perfectly acceptable to say that "human beings have ten fingers." This is because the broad statement is made with the broad understanding that it refers to the "norm" of human beings.

So, in essence, the crazed hysterics of transgender activism is largely devoid of science. For reference, you can consider what noted experts in the field of clinical psychology and neurosciences (like Dr. Jordan Peterson) have to say on the matter.

Yet, the issue with COVID-19 is different in that (at least from my perspective) some people are "picking and choosing" the "medical evidence" that fits their current views.

Instead of refraining from even staking an opinion on things like COVID-19, the vaccines or various treatment options (like Ivermectin) until AFTER they have reviewed and disseminated through actual medical evidence, many are formulating an opinion and then attempting to validate it by means other than firsthand medical research.

By the way, I am not accusing anyone HERE on SermonIndex of this. I simply know people for which this is true.

I'll go so far that there are believers who are being influenced by various teachers and even some doctors (who selectively cite *some* medical research). Others go the opposite direction. They are easily influenced by politicians, media outlets, news personalities, and their own handful of teachers and doctors who also only selectively cite *some* medical research. In my view, they are both flawed.

If we seek to truly be honest, then we must truly be honest with all things. We cannot be so easily persuaded as to develop medical opinions (for that is what some people are actually mistaking their "faith" with a "medical opinion" or vice versa). Otherwise, we can be shortsighted with that sense of "honesty" -- something that can easily make us "honestly wrong."

Hence questioning cognitive ability and/or wether a person is truly born again🤷🏽”â™‚️
Perhaps they are a good and godly man, faithful in what he knows ... a religious man , a Nicodemus- and yet they cannot see the kingdom.

The key word in all that you typed is "perhaps."

Etymologically, "perhaps" comes from "per" and "hap" (amalgomated in Nuevo Latin and French as "perhappes"). It essentially means "possibly, by chance." My point is that "perhaps" should never be used as a basis to judge someone else. It lacks the certainty by which someone can suggest something that is outside of the "let your yes be yes and no be no" parameters of rhetorical propriety as believers.

I must confess that I've struggled with this myself. I am highly intelligent and very well-educated. So, I've found myself trying to hold my tongue at times when some people (in and out of the Body of Christ) say things that I feel sure to be incorrect.

Just this week, I was engaged in a debate over Twitter with a "pastor" who went off the "deep end" into wild heresy over LGBTQ issues. In our discourse, the man approached our conversation with condescension and openly (and publicly) questioned my intelligence, education and whether I care for the rate of "gay kids who are committing suicide."

I held my tongue (or, in this case, tweets). However, as our discussion progressed, I was able to point out flaws in his views as well as his assumptions about me.

He was boasting in his years of pastoral education. So, I subtly pointed out my own diverse and advanced educational attainment (secular as it might be). He questioned whether I care about people who are suicidal. So, I pointed out that I often drive to the Golden Gate Bridge and very simply share Christ to lonely people walking on that bridge (upon which a large number of people kill themselves each year). Yet, I also pointed out that I can rightly divide truly caring for the lost from either condoning or affirming behavior with caring for the soul.

In the end, this man did change his tone quite a bit. He continued to accuse me of being "ignorant" for my remarks on being able to care deeply for all people (including homosexuals) while still being able to avoid affirming homosexuality. Yet, his tone changed when he suddenly knew his audience (me) and that I wasn't as ignorant as he suspected.

I bring this up only to point out that we should be VERY careful as believers when we use words that openly question their cognitive abilities or whether that believer might be "sealed over for judgment."

Moreover, I pointed this out because you specifically said, "HOW CAN ANYONE WHO IS BORN AGAIN, WITH THE MIND OF CHRIST, not see that this "virus” and these "shots” have from the beginning, been part of an evil scheme?"

The insinuation in this is that those who do not agree with your opinion that the "shots" (i.e., vaccines) are at their root ("from the beginning") a part of a specific "evil scheme" are somehow not "born again."

I think that I have made it very clear that I am not easily persuaded by politicians, individual doctors, pundits, media outlets or "Big Pharm." Yet, it is a dangerous thing to question the salvation of someone because you disagree with their position and/or conclusion (or your perception of their position/conclusion) about the vaccines.

After all, you might very well find yourself having made a harmful public insinuation against a true child of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. We should be a bit slower to speak like this -- and I should be the first to ask the Lord for help in this.

It was apparent, by what I managed to glean, you are occupied with "facts” and yet my occupation is faith and in all honesty,- all the facts in the world won’t get you to where you wanna go, but just a mustard seed of faith will take you straightway 😇

I'm not sure what you mean. I am not guided (or occupied) by mere "facts." My faith -- my love for the Lord my God -- is first and paramount in my heart, mind, soul and strength. Yet, this faith also prevents me from walking where I "want to go." It also prevents me from making proclamations about things like vaccines if I am not accurate in what I am saying. Even if we are convinced of something, it is still a "lie" if we proclaim it and it isn't entirely true.

Brother, please don't take this as angry. It isn't. I am convinced that you mean well and are guided out of fervor for the Lord and truth. I just hope that we can be wiser than the children of this world -- especially when they are watching and judging our every word.

Hi AbideinHim,

Many People are having adverse effects from the boosters and vaccines, but why isn’t the CDC and News media reporting this? Probably for the same reason that they are not talking about the studies on natural immunity being more effective than vaccines.

You raise a very good point. Like the initial article, the various studies that I've reviewed all seem to confirm the hypothesis that "natural immunity" is better than "immunity by vaccine."

However, achieving "natural immunity" requires that you contract and successfully get through COVID-19. For most of those of us who are healthy and have no health issues (known or unknown), then achieving natural immunity does not seem quite so terrible.

I would still point out that there are rare instances (medical outliers as they are) where seemingly healthy individuals without other known medical issues actually suffer long-term issues or even death from COVID-19. In addition, people who contract COVID-19 are also contagious -- even if they had achieved "natural immunity" (or vaccine immunity) and contracted COVID again through a breakthrough case or variant.

However, I believe that there is another way to look at this. It doesn't have to be EITHER/OR. It can be BOTH.

It is possible to be vaccinated and still contract COVID-19. Data from studies point out that such individuals tend to have less-severe symptoms. If they contract COVID-19 through a breakthrough case, then they benefit as having both vaccine immunity and the much-better natural immunity.

Why is "both" worth considering?

It is certainly worth considering for people with many preexisting health issues or those with weakened immune systems (like the elderly).

Nine months ago, Brother Keith Daniel passed away from the South African variant of COVID-19.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=63857&forum=44

Like many, I followed that thread. I was heartbroken over the course of that month that Brother Keith lay in the hospital and then departed this life.

The vaccines are not just a preventive measure (for which data shows are effective in the vast majority of cases). However, the data also shows that the vaccines also tend to prevent severity in those who are vaccinated yet still contract COVID-19.

If it can help such individuals, then I think that vaccinations are good even if natural immunity is better. In the end, those individuals will have both.

*EDIT - Brother, you posted a link in the second page to an article by Ben Shapiro (called "The Big Government COVID-19 Lie"). The link (apparently from Facebook) is very large and can be shortened to the following:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/the-big-government-covid-19-lie

If possible, can you edit that post and shorten the link. It would help with the readability of the post (as someone mentioned the problem in one of their posts).

No offense taken😇 and in the spirit of truth (honesty) I’m gonna keep it real with you and only because if the situation were reversed I’d hope you’d do the same with me 🙏🏻

In truth this thread had nothing at all to do with the topic you injected which effectively detailing the OP’s opportunity to share and interact 🤔

Then after you were met with opposition, you began a series of condescending albeit defensive positions where you "take over” the thread, so since you kinda just walked up and butted into a conversation talking about a different thing, I figured you’d been carrying that around for a while and needed to deal with it... else why would you do that 🤷🏽”â™‚️
Again in the spirit of truth, I appreciate your response but it totally misses the point ... You’re asking me to deny what is clearly visible to me,... and millions of others- this (for us) is not a matter of opinion, it’s our reality.
If there something you’ve been carrying around, please take it to the cross dear brother and simply ask Jesus what He wants to do with the property He purchased there... you don’t need the fallen worlds "experts” to guide your decisions, Jesus is sufficient and IF you give Him the attention and the freedom to do so, He will change your perspective 💯

Again there is no accusing you or judging you, I’m simply confessing what is clearly visible no offense taken nor intended, rather a sincere and earnest plea, whatever this (that in spite of you struggling with, required you to do it) is... take it to the cross ✝️ come there and die to your life, your wife, to your intelligence, to your education, to your wealth, to your world, to all that you hold dear... just like Paul did consider it all dung and be born again into His kingdom. Then you will see by the light of His presence and the fallen worlds "experts” will be exposed as liars and thrives. There is no doubt you are a good and faithful man, but I am testifying to you in truth there is far more than you are currently aware and just like with those whom promote mental illness as normative, I will not pretend.
So to be absolutely crystal clear- I am testifying to you that if the situation were reversed I would want you to, by all possible means, help me🙏🏻

So with your permission I’d like to pray that Lord Jesus would show you by this same light ?

I 💯 believe He hears and answers my prayers and wants you to see the spiritual reality we are positioned in... it’s important Chris, that as many are willing to put on the armor do so. We are at war and not with each other but with an enemy that corrupts at will where good men do nothing because they’re being distracted with facts instead of acts of faith. This is not an accusation this is our present reality and you’re ultimately asking me to pretend that you’re armored up and I’m not gonna do that for both you and the Lords namesake. Everyone who has been born again has been given a suit of armor and if in this present spiritual war a brother or sister doesn’t have it on I’m inclined to find out why not, because either they can’t see that it’s needed or they don’t have it. Either way I 💯 want to get them armored up and in the fight because the ministry of the Holy Spirit can’t properly function in and thru us without it 😇

Hi JFW,

No offense taken😇 and in the spirit of truth (honesty) I’m gonna keep it real with you and only because if the situation were reversed I’d hope you’d do the same with me 🙏🏻

In truth this thread had nothing at all to do with the topic you injected which effectively detailing the OP’s opportunity to share and interact 🤔

Obviously, I want you (and everyone) to "keep it real." However, an underlying point that I've been trying to make is that we don't mistake an opinion for truth (or an absolute primer for what is "real").

As such, I should be clear that I find this statement to be quite an interesting "interpretation" of this discussion.

To be VERY CLEAR: I didn't digress when I joined the discussion. Rather, I responded to someone's post. In fact, feel free to go through ALL of the posts in this discussion in order. My first response in this discussion was directed to AbideinHim.

AbideinHim asked, "Why is the government not doing a study on natural immunity?"

My response was to point to a search query via PubMed that listed 2,429 results that included medical studies on "natural immunity" via COVID-19. I stated, "Many of these research studies are funded in-whole or in-part by the U.S. government."

If you found this "condescending," then please believe me when this was NOT AT ALL my intent. In fact, I went back through my posts and cannot find any condescension in my posts.

I did take issue with certain things that were (or seemingly were) directed at me. I pointed out those things -- which I believe to be outside of propriety when it comes to conversation or an almost flippant manner by which people judge one another -- to the point of questioning someone's salvation over something as meaningless as a position COVID-19 related medical opinions.

If you assumed that I was trying to "take over the thread," please understand that I was responding to SEVERAL people who had replied to me. I responded to AbideinHim. Staff then responded to me (and vice versa). After this, you responded to me. That is a discussion -- albeit with multiple participants. There was no attempt to "take over" anything.

In fact, I think that this interpretation of the discussion -- including an insinuation of a desire for control -- distorts what we were writing and, in fact, digresses from the subject. When you use rhetoric that insinuates that someone "butted in" to this thread, you might reconsider what it means to be "condescending."

In fact, we were engaged in a discussion when YOU joined and typed an initial response directed at me. You raised some serious insinuations at me over my words.

Brother, believe me, I could have easily come across as harsh with a response to your accusations, insinuations and assumptions. I prayed before I typed because I prefer being gentle with brothers -- especially if your very bad assumptions were merely a misunderstanding.

I suppose that I don't need to quote that post (unless you would like me to). Instead, you can go back and read your own words in your first post in this discussion (4:52 on Jan. 3, 2022). It was directed at me and (at least to me) it seemed to lack any grace or humility -- something that I myself wrestle with when I write.

Obviously (as has been the cases with MANY discussions over the years at SermonIndex), there will be "opposition" to what we say to one another. That is always expected. In fact, I appreciate the "iron sharpens iron" conversations among the brethren -- as long as they don't meander to the point where the fruit of our lips (or, in the case of online discussions, words that are typed) turn sour, bitter or even poisonous.

Again in the spirit of truth, I appreciate your response but it totally misses the point ... You’re asking me to deny what is clearly visible to me,... and millions of others- this (for us) is not a matter of opinion, it’s our reality.

I suppose that this is the crux of where we differ. I have no problem with people being convinced. I certainly believe wholeheartedly that we should stand for TRUTH. But, again, there is a very big difference between "truth" and "opinion."

In this case, we aren't debating the meaning of Scripture. We are debating issues pertaining to a VIRAL PANDEMIC and MEDICINE (in the form of either different vaccinations or treatment). There are obviously scores of opinions about this that opens room for debate. In fact, medical experts are constantly engaging in medical debate over these medical matters too. Politicians engage in political debate over these medical matters.

You’re asking me to deny what is clearly visible to me,... and millions of others- this (for us) is not a matter of opinion, it’s our reality.

This is simply false. I am NOT asking you to "deny" anything -- no matter if you (think) that it is "clearly visible" to you and "millions of others." Rather, I am pointing out the need to be accurate and factual when devising a MEDICAL opinion that is being proclaimed in some of the ways that it has been proclaimed.

If someone alleges something, then the burden of proof is upon them to substantiate their claim. This is also true of matters in the Church. Yet, in this case, there are believers who make public allegations, declarations and claims. That is perfectly acceptable -- as long as it is true and can be substantiated.

The world is looking at us. They watch what we say and how we live. They watch what we believe. The New Testament epistles are filled with admonitions to be clean and a good example in regard to "outsiders." This should always be something that we consider in these times.

So, if we make or repeat claims, we should be ready to substantiate what it is that we are claiming. It has to pass the muster of "truth." It cannot be substantiated by any other way. Right now, there is a lot of information being tossed around. We, as believers, must avoid partaking in profane speech, repeating fables or myths and strive for godliness in all such matters.

If there something you’ve been carrying around, please take it to the cross dear brother and simply ask Jesus what He wants to do with the property He purchased there... you don’t need the fallen worlds "experts” to guide your decisions, Jesus is sufficient and IF you give Him the attention and the freedom to do so, He will change your perspective 💯

Let's be clear: I never said that the "fallen world's experts" were guiding me. I never insinuated this.

In fact, I do go to the Lord with all of this (and have done so for nearly two years) because I do it always. However, if you're under the impression that I am somehow not doing this (because my "perspective" hasn't conformed to the one that you're so sure of), then you're gravely mistaken.

It seems like it would take a great deal of hubris to assume that people who don't share your perspective on this matter (or any matter not clearly written in the Word of God) hasn't been turning their attention to the Lord.

Again there is no accusing you or judging you, I’m simply confessing what is clearly visible no offense taken nor intended, rather a sincere and earnest plea, whatever this (that in spite of you struggling with, required you to do it) is... take it to the cross ✝️ come there and die to your life, your wife, to your intelligence, to your education, to your wealth, to your world, to all that you hold dear... just like Paul did consider it all dung and be born again into His kingdom. Then you will see by the light of His presence and the fallen worlds "experts” will be exposed as liars and thrives. There is no doubt you are a good and faithful man, but I am testifying to you in truth there is far more than you are currently aware and just like with those whom promote mental illness as normative, I will not pretend.

You were wrong in your judgment, assumptions, insinuations and conclusions about me in these posts. We will all be called into account over the things that we have said (or typed). This will be included in that account. It doesn't matter how zealous we are or how much we feel that we are being "real." Truth is still truth. Everything else is not truth. Please consider this when you write accusations, assumptions or judgments.

In regard to this discussion, you've declared that this "fallen world's experts will be exposed as liars and thieves." What about those medical experts who are believers? Are you so bold in your zeal as to dismiss them as "liars and thieves" because their medical expertise might contradict what you think to be enlightened "truth" from our Lord Jesus? What about many believers -- truly belonging to the Father -- who may prayerfully come to a conclusion that differs from your own?

Unfortunately, this is part of the reason that I participated in this discussion in the first place. There are some who claim to not listen to the "fallen world's experts." Yet, some of those same believers would gladly avoid a vaccine or prescribe things like Ivermectin for treatment of COVID-19 partially on the basis of "studies" that were conducted by "the fallen world's experts."

In fact, Ivermectin was created by scientists and marketed by Merck (for use in animals) in the 1980s. I wonder if the Irish-American scientist and Japanese scientist who researched and developed it -- or the pharmaceutical corporation that marketed it -- are part of the "fallen world's experts." Why do some discount medical research and advancement when it is convenient? Why do some point to medical research that seemingly substantiates a belief but ignore thousands of other examples of medical research pertaining to the same pandemic?

This is not an accusation this is our present reality and you’re ultimately asking me to pretend that you’re armored up and I’m not gonna do that for both you and the Lords namesake.

Again, I don't ask for you to not have opinions. I am not even asking for you to withhold your opinions. I am simply asking that you realize that there is a difference between your opinions and what is pure, unadulterated truth.

If we have an opinion, we can certainly share it if our words are clean, our consciences clear and it is spoken without pride or bad motives. However, we should be prepared to be clear with proving accusations rather than simply relying upon vague generalizations -- even those that we might be convinced of. But maybe that's the point. Even if we are convinced of something, I would think that we should still be slow to speak it. Perhaps we shouldn't attribute to God something that we simply "figured it out" even if we believe that God showed us it to be true.

On a personal level, I don't care who thinks that I am "armored up" or not. I know the God to whom I serve. I know where I stand with him because I go to him daily. This communion with the Lord leads me to be as patient with others as I would ask God to be with me.

Have you asked Him....?
Did you from the beginning come and ask Lord Jesus how He wanted you to respond to all this?
Did you ask Him, Chris?
If so then simply testify before God and man what He told you 🙏🏻
the hour is late dear brother, the time for debating has long past, we are years into this, now it is time for those whom know Him to be of one mind and not be bickering or debating or getting our feelings hurt, now is the season for war 💯 and having done all else to stand as one body with Christ as it’s head 🙏🏻

//now is the season for war 💯//

It had been war for the last 2000 years. There is nothing new under the sun.

Correct it’s not new, yet there are seasons and like Nicodemus, some simply can’t see it...
Ultimately his hesitation at the words of life landed him squarely on the side of the those whom crucified Christ and ironically they did so because He was spreading "misinformation” 🤔 according to the "experts” 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Hi JFW,

Have you asked Him....?
Did you from the beginning come and ask Lord Jesus how He wanted you to respond to all this?

While I am not certain what "all this" refers to you, please be comforted by the fact that I ask him -- daily -- about EVERY response. I ask him about my response to things like COVID. I ask him about my response to the brethren. I ask him about my response to people of this world.

If so then simply testify before God and man what He told you 🙏🏻

That can be a dangerous "catch all" for conduct or words that are contrary to the Word of God. It puts the blame on the Lord for words -- including the "bickering and debating" of the ability to "hurt" others (with a wrong or false assumption that we are doing the work of God).

It would be a dreadful thing to find ourselves bearing false witness against God by crediting our words and responses to him when they are actually our own. It might be even publicly making God in our own image.

Likewise, I would ask you to simply be careful and "slow to speak" -- particularly if you're going to season your words with assumptions and judgment.

For instance, you may want to be slow to speak words when you publicly question whether the person that you're conversing with is actually a believer or is "sealed for judgment" based primarily upon whether they disagree with your conclusions over a viral pandemic, vaccine or medical treatment.

Yes, we are one body. Christ is our head. However, we need to make sure that the place in which we stand -- particularly in opposition to one another -- is firm.

In this case, it goes beyond the idea of whether or not you think that you're right or someone else is wrong on medical issues. It goes to whether or not you're so assured of your declarations and position that you'd question someone else's faith.

If you truly believe that "the time for debating has long past," then why did you enter this thread to debate? Why did you give a medical conclusion that was not substantiated by medical evidence? Why did you make such insinuations or accusations against those with whom you disagreed?

I appreciate that you know your opinions and conclusions. However, I don't appreciate when brethren speak/write in such a way that all others must accept their opinions and conclusions lest they question the "cognitive ability" of other brethren or entertain a notion that they might be "sealed for judgment."

You may very well question my cognitive ability. It doesn't bother me on a personal level (because I know myself). I seek to see and know myself as God sees me. I caution you because this is a public forum for believers and the world is watching us.

*ALSO: I think that I have been clear that we're not solely discussing Scripture in this. We're discussing medical issues -- a viral pandemic, vaccinations against it and medical treatment for it.

Our Lord Jesus didn't walk this earth and directly proclaim these things. Jesus spoke of spiritual matters and did cite "experts" (in the form of the Law and the prophets). The modern "experts" were not true experts but undeniably were debating against the Creator of all things -- the very Word of God in bodily form. None of us are so positioned.

I’m not presently capable of being more clear 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Hi JFW,
Its pretty clear this pandemic is not a benign(as in cause) natural happening but the evidence points to a man made virus from a lab which may or may not have been accidently released.
We know this because of the facility in the city of origin,by the whistleblowers,by the political regime in China and the massive coverup including the disappearance or death of the scientists involved.

We know that the main stumbling block to the spread of liberal socialism across the world is the free market democratic USA and that whether its release was accidental or coincidental the virus was used to affect the US 2020 elections where an atheistic left wing influenced government came to power.
We know this goverment and its politically motivated scientists have no love for the nation state or religion and that they see the Christian Church as a great threat from a religous point of view.They are also deeply antisemitic.
We know that the western world is under heavy censorship as we speak with many many conservative voices being silenced when they speak about Covid or the Election 2020 including democratically elected representives and the conservative scientific community.Any debate has been silenced on main stream TV and Newspapers by journalists who are actually left wing activists.
The scientific experts have called it wrong knowingly for the last two years on such things as
Masks -The lenght of time the vaccine would work- On whether the vaccinated could pass the virus on -On the expected death rate in 2021-On the effectiveness of other therapautic treatments.

If the devil is not behind all of this then the devil does not exist and we have nothing to worry about.
In talking to a successful horse owner once he told me that when he is looking to buy a horse he buys the man before he buys the horse.What he meant is that if the man that is selling the horse appears to dodgy in anyway or not honest in anyway then he will be wary of what he is buying.
The horse owners in our case are pro abortion,anti semitic,have an atheistic belief system,anti democratic ,lovers of race baiting ,supporters of the LGBQ lifestyle and are working tirelessly to get rid the nation state because they hate any kind of border which from God's point of view is a block on the spread of sin.

Have a look at their character and their track record and you will see that they are not to be trusted in the smallest of things,

urs staff

We are, as you can see, in the midst of a spiritual war that has been carefully crafted to corrupt. Nothing that is happening is by chance nor is it coincidence, it is tactical and opportunistic which gives it adaptive capacity. It’s implemented thru lies, it’s that simple and therein lies the effectiveness. To actually address or counter a deception where a lie has been received as truth requires time and attention, this tactic has been successfully implemented (by the enemy) to preoccupy or distract the body of Christ ...
As a result sin abounds while the influence of the church has receded to such an extent that many are corrupted. My hope, my prayer is for mercy and light because so many are off pace and out of position, and it gets me vexed when I see my brothers and sisters being lied to and ultimately some will be led astray and honestly I can see so many ways I’ve failed the grace of God and would not yield my will and as a result of this I missed out on the provision,... rather than strengthening my anointing I weakened it. The scriptures are clear, if I had been faithful the Lord would’ve profited. Yet this proved (for me) to be a turning point, a place of repentance. Once I could see that the thing I opposed was an alkali that He was adding to draw the dross to the surface so He could scrape it off, my resistance ended and tho it was/is very painful, the refinement is absolutely worth it. That process is what I observe to be happening across the world where many people are waking up and in their zeal are hoping to rouse others from their slumber.
Others are (unknowingly) fighting to stay asleep... so there’s work to do💯

One things for sure, these aren’t the days we let our lamps run low... keep the oil replenished and the wick trimmed 🙏🏻

Hi all
Scientist banned from twitter after AP and Rueters who have no scientific experience at all fact checked him.
Journalists know more than scientists!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6nh6dKlhhw

urs staff

I will not add any medical science discussion at the moment, but let me insert this Gospel Message, a bible reading of Psalms 107 as one may wonder where is God during this time of confusion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9N3KVepmhw

At WakeMed and UNC hospitals, 100% of COVID-19 patients on ventilators are unvaccinated, officials said.

https://www.wral.com/coronavirus/nc-hospitals-say-100-of-covid-19-patients-on-ventilators-are-unvaccinated/20065686/?fbclid=IwAR1enxxIzgvIcOrRTy88fBwXbZVhWpm0fMrKDpl4ljI9YnImXUf07aWV59g

Are you saying that the persons on ventilators *are* vaccinated? Or that there are no one on ventilators?

Hi TMK,
I dont believe that story to be accurate or perhaps in one place only all the people were unvaxed but overall,their obviously have been people on ventilators both vaccinated and unvaxed as with the hospitalized.
This started all around the western world with "we need to flaten the curve" as our hospitals will be over run.
Lets shut it all down.
That was reasonable and most people bought into that.
Along side that we had the numbers game going on ,how many tests ,how many ventilators etc.
Then it leaked out we might need a second shut down.....
Then the shutdowns were used for political reasons not science
Then came the vaccines,we think its a good idea to take the shot,its your choice, then it was if your a good citizen you will care about other people and take the vax ,then it was you are a bad person if you dont take the vax and now its you will lose your job if you dont take the vax ,its still your choice though.....to have the forced medical procedure...
We were told only one vaccine and their is no evidence you can pass on covid if you get the vaccine and then well there are a few minor breakthrough cases.But now we know that the vaccine has almost no preventive capablities in stopping the virus been passed on.We were told that the vaccine was a one of deal and then it became well you may need a booster in nine months which was actually 3 months in the Jenson one.

It been a slippery slope to where we are today and the authorities were dishonest at best,
urs staff
p,s
1.2 million people I believe I heard yesterday have registered with VEARS regarding a vaccine related injory
Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System
https://vaers.hhs.gov/

Are people on ventilators or not? Is that a hoax? Are you denying that the vaccine improves outcomes? Or is that a hoax too?

Such absurdity.

Hi TMK,
I dont think people are denying people are on ventilators or were on ventilators.
But look what you are denying or failing to address:
That people died or were injuried by vaccines
Check out Vears .
That the vaccines didnt do what was billed in terms of effectiveness of lenght nor effectiveness of prohibiting the spread if you were vaccinated.
That the vaccines are being used politically rather than scientifically.
That people are now being forced to have a medical proceedure they dont want.
That the vaccines were not tested enough before issue and also why should Christians trust a government that are pushing the vaccines when they are also Pro Abortion,Anti Semetic ,Pro Lgbqt, are against the Nation state (borderless society) and hate the Church with a passion.
To us its like the devil saying 9 lies and are expected to believe the the tenth
urs staff
P.s
On Hoaxes:
3 Yrs ago many many Christians said that the Russiagate impeachment was a Hoax,a scam that was concocted by the Obama administration and that the Trump campaign were spied on ,
They were right as it turns out even though the same mainstream media poured scorn on the people who said it was a hoax. Some Christians were duped by the lies and chose to follow the wrong stream,

Are you saying the people on ventilators are REALLY people who have been injured by the vaccine and NOT unvaxxed people who have Covid?

I ask you plainly - who is on the ventilators?

Hi TMK,
None of the things I put down you responded too.
But I will answer you anyhow as best i can.
The answer is NO.The people who registered with Vears regarding what is known as "vaccine injury" are not the people on ventilators.They are people who had adverse reactions to taking vaccines,not just the covid vaccine but any vaccine.The people on the ventilators are people who got sick with covid and the people who registered with vears are people who got sick or died from the vaccine.

"Are you saying the people on ventilators are REALLY people who have been injured by the vaccine and NOT unvaxxed people who have Covid?"

"who is on the ventilators?"

The people on the Ventilators are Covid patients but some of them are fully vaccinated and others arent.I dont know what the exact figures of people who got the vax and still ended up in hospital is, but its considerably more than it was meant to be.The vaccines were meant to work at up to a 95 percent rate.

So people who got fully vaccinated are ending up in hospital with bad Covid.
One of my points was that people are also ending up in hospital after getting the vaccine.

A person I know got the vaccine and almost immediately had stroke like symptoms ,her face dropped on one side etc and her doctor told her she could not take the second shot as it could kill her.She spent three weeks out of work mostly in hospital and she said she wasnt the only one,

So I am not saying the vaccines dont work ,I am saying we were lied to about them,
urs staff

Flu vaccines don’t keep folks from getting the flu either. That’s not the kind of vaccine it is and that is not the kind of vaccine the Covid vaccine is. It certainly can keep you from getting sick, but more importantly greatly increases your chance of survival or severe illness.

Time and again you hear stories of people gasping for breath regretting they did not get a simple injection.

Hi TMK,

We WERE TOLD that the covid vaccine would not alone protect you from getting covid but that if you got the vaccine then you would not be able to pass on the virus to anyone else.

Both of those things were untrue and we were lied too.

Why believe a group of people who push Abortion,Lgbq,Antisemitism and no borders?
They are liars because their father is the father of lies,
urs staff

https://www.verywellhealth.com/flu-cases-by-state-5202670

https://www.foxnews.com/health/what-is-flurona.amp

"we need to be wise not to over-react and run along with the mantra and voice of the media...Something is not right with this all from a christian perspective"

Right from the beginning of this pandemic I sensed that something isn't quite right, the difficult part was to realise that probably most Christians immediately started to "run along with the mantra and voice of the media" - and sadly still do !
But then again this happened many times in history - but I don't want to go off-topic here.

"In Christ alone our hope is found..."

Ok Marcus let me ask you this.

If you were in charge of the world when the COVID pandemic started, how would you have handled it?

Life would indeed be very short for millions and millions if nothing had been done about the pandemic. Maybe some of the measures taken have saved some lives to hear the gospel. Unless of course you believe that 5M dead worldwide from Covid is a lie.

I am just curious what all the virology and health experts in this forum would have done about the pandemic.

Dr Michael Brown is on Facebook begging for prayer for the life of a good friend dying of Covid. His name is Brad. Please pray.

Haha I give up. The Australia comment is dangerous debunked information.

Hi TMK,
You could get a job as a facebook or youtube fact checker....
urs staff

My thoughts are, regardless of what is true or false regarding the Covid or the vaccines, that the division that this issue has caused all across this country, is worse than the Covid or vaccines themselves. Maybe this was part of the plan, I don’t know, but what I do know is, doesn’t take a doctor or scientist to see the damage it’s done to the hearts of so many. It’s taken the love out of so many hearts, and replaced that love, with hate, anger and bitterness.

Maybe if we could all just try and love one another again, it may not cure the Covid, but it could cure the division, I don’t know about you, but I’m sick of the division, we’re Americans and some of us are Christians, we’re better than this. And here's the kicker, you have some folks "right here" on Sermon Index that are not doctors or scientist, that are getting their information from "only" Pro Vax Doctors, and scientist telling us that we all should get the Vax. Go figure!

I guess if the next virus was said to attacked the eyes, and the government told us to wear the masks over our eyes, we all would wear the masks over the eyes? There has been to many lies and flip flops in the information in the past couple years, for me to believe anyone else but Jesus Christ, I would be nuts!

President Reagan once said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, I’m from the Government and I'm here to help." 😊

Hi all
This a link from the EU regarding adverse reactions to a covid vaccine.This is one of 4 vaccines .Including the other vaccines its a about a million reported adverse reactions.

The main point is that although you can dig deep and find the webpage and work out where the link is and eventually find this information,we have not heard a report on any mainstream news outlet regarding this subject.This is called censorship.

https://www.adrreports.eu/en/search_subst.html#

Ok I have redone the link as it wont let you go directly to the page . You have to look it up under "c" and go down the long list til you come to covid and their are four vaccines under covid

Staff please fix your link it is making the page unreadable.

Hi TMK

https://www.adrreports.eu/en/search_subst.html#

Ok I have redone the link as it wont let you go directly to the page . You have to look it up under "c" and go down the long list til you come to covid and their are four vaccines under covid ,you can then click on each to see the search results

Staff-

What is considered an "adverse reaction?” Mild body aches for about a day or part of a day, maybe a mild fever, are extremely common. So what? It just means your immune system is responding to the vaccine which is what it is supposed to do. Just about every person I know who got a vaccine had mild side effects that were gone in a day or two. No one is burying that information.

The old smallpox vaccine that every kid got on their arm back in the 50s and 60s and 70s also caused a reaction. I still have the scar as does every baby boomer.

Hi TMK,
Believe the Abortionist,the Anti Semite ,Lgbq supporters and the one world government lovers if you want.You have been played a waltz and you do not dance and you have been played a dirge and you do not weep,
You've been given the evidence by many but you would rather believe CNN than Christian brothers and Sisters,
urs staff

COVID-19 VACCINE WEEKLY SAFETY REPORT - 06-01-2022
Released by the Australian Government, Department of Health, Therapeutic Goods Administration

https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-06-01-2022

COVID-19 Update on Sunday 9 January 2022 for New South Wales (NSW), Australia (where I live):

In the 24-hour reporting period to 8pm last night:

First dose in 16+ NSW population: 95.1%
Second dose in 16+ NSW population: 93.7%
Tests in last 24 hours: 98,986
Total new case: 30,062

More important data:

In hospital: 1,927
In ICU: 151
Deaths: 16

----------

My comment:

I know for sure that God our Father and our Lord Jesus have not forsaken Christians who chose to be vaccinated.

No further comment.

Staff why don’t you just out the conspiracists and websites that you pay heed to. Might be helpful.

Jade those numbers are lies haha.

Hi Tmk,
You cant answer any questions asked of you and you ignore all the replies and you wont write a post that has more than a few lines in it.
The reason for this is you dont have any answers ,you want to follow the world .
I gave you the official EU website and the Official US government website.
Anyone who uses the "conspiracy theory "arguement is trying to stop "free speech" .
The people on the side of forced Covid Vaccines are the same people on the side of Abortionists,Anti Semites and the LGBQT agenda.
This is the side you find yourself on.David was in a similiar position when he was willing to line up for the Philistines against the Israelites,
urs staff

Staff-

I can tell you one thing- if Trump had won the election (I voted for him) and we were in the same boat we are in now, your tune would sound very different.

I try not to respond in depth to the rantings of conspiracists. It is not possible to dialogue with them. In this case I choose to apply Prov. 26:4. There are times to apply Prov. 26:5 but this is not one of them. Chris tried a week or so ago and was met with the same derision.

I haven’t read this whole thread, but from what I have read, what is the purpose of it? It’s been 2 years, and the pro vaccine folks have already received the vaccines, and probably all the boosters, and the non-vaxers have not received the vaccines, and probably never will. To me it just seems, all this thread has done is brought out the justifiers on both sides, why waste our valuable time trying to justify our personal decisions to vax or not to vax? I have a few friends that have taken all the vaccines and boosters, and they seem to be really pushy in their convictions, why is this? The friends of mine that have not taken any of the vaccines, they don’t even talk about it. I guess my real question is, why do we waste our time try to justify our personal decisions to vax or not, to me it just seems all in vain, do vain debates really produce any fruits?

"Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand” (Romans 14:1-4).

Hi Tmk,
Again you respond by not answering any points and in a few lines.
Again anyone who calls another a conpiracist is trying to stop "free speech".
You dont dialogue with anyone thats the problem.We show you the proof and you come back with a one liner and dont answer anything.You expect us to answer ur legalistic questions though.
Show me one link I shared that is not legitimate??.
Actually I am one of the moderate voices against Covid Communism on this post.
You are on the wrong hill with the wrong people and even if some of my people are wrong in some aspects at least I am on the right side of the valley staring at the enemy not looking at him to my left or right,
urs staff

Hi Bill,
The point of the post was about Omnicron being a blessing of sorts and to discuss that.However the post was hijacked in my opinion down a bitter road it was not meant to go by people who dont want to acknowledge Omnicron as a great development,
urs staff

Thanks for the explanation, although I don't understand much about these debates, I guess for some, they get some sort of gratification. Have a wonderful day.

Staff- I happen to agree Omicron is a favorable development. But I just read this morning that somewhere a new strain has elements of both Omicron and Delta. So it goes on.

Bill- a week or so I made the following post on Facebook:
" Why does the media keep posting "daily positive” Covid cases? Does anyone care? Does not everyone realize we are in the midst of a major surge? Everybody will get Omicron at some point more than likely. Those who are not against vaccines have already got one, two or three. Those who are against vaccines will not get one now. People want to live their lives. They know the risks. Get over it. Stop trying to scare people to death. It’s disgusting.”

My cousin’s husband responded with the following:
" Ok, I’ll give you a different stat. I, personally, know 7 people who have died from COVID, including my very best friend just 2 weeks ago. I know for a fact that it is a slow, ugly, painful, agonizing death, and I know for a fact that none of those 7 people were vaccinated. No one I know who has been vaccinated has died. If I can "scare” even a couple of people into saving their own lives by just getting a simple shot, people who think they know the risks, but really don’t, because they have bought into misinformation and fear-mongering of another sort, then it will be worth whatever "disgusting” offense I am causing by just telling the truth. So, yeah, shame on the government and the media for trying to save lives, and shame on me for not just "getting over it.”

We just keep going round in circles...
I think only time will tell the outcome of this pandemic
My predictions are that we have some of the most terrible times ahead of us !
I believe 2022 will only get worse then 2021, in 12 months we will know and you can remind me then what I said today

Let's fix our eyes on Jesus...

Markus

Thanks Todd, I'm sorry to hear this story from your cousins’ husband. My personal story is, I'm 70 and live by myself on an acre of property kind of in the suburbs, with only one neighbor. After losing my wife of 40 years back in 2012, I don't watch a lot of news, it's not just something I recently developed, I've never been much of a news watcher, other than the weather. I don’t get out much anymore, even though I feel I’m still in pretty good condition/health even after the triple bypass in 2015, I try to eat right, and get plenty rest. Even though I don’t watch much news, I’m not completely out of touch of what’s going on in this world. To be completely honest, from what little I’ve heard in the past couple years, how can anyone believe much of anything said by anyone in this world anymore?

I know you have a personal story, so you have witnessed the danger of this pandemic up close and personal, I don’t personally know of any friends or family members that have passed from the Covid, but it doesn’t mean I don’t believe it's not a real threat. As for as the science of all this, well I never did well in science class, never even liked it enough to pay attention, probably slept through most of the class, so it’s really hard for me personally to understand it, probably because I’ve never had any desire to. I guess my lack of interest in science, is why I don’t understand a lot mentioned in these kinds of debates, although, I’m sure they are they are beneficial for those that do have an interest.

After losing a Wife and a Son and a triple bypass in the past 10 years, my resilience to everything in life has grown stronger, and of course so has my relationship with the Lord, so I just don’t concern myself with a lot of things that are going on in the world anymore. I would not suggest to anyone to live a life like I live, but so far, it’s been working for me, I live in almost perfect peace, and contentment in my life.

God Bless Brother

Hi staff,

The point of the post was about Omnicron being a blessing of sorts and to discuss that.However the post was hijacked in my opinion down a bitter road it was not meant to go by people who dont want to acknowledge Omnicron as a great development,

Thank you for acknowledging this as your OPINION. That was one of my prior points all along -- that people should not mistake opinions for truth (or vice versa).

As for the "hijacking:" This accusation was hurled at me a couple of times earlier. It isn't accurate. I responded to the original poster (who posted the article) about natural immunity. I wrote (in response to a QUESTION that this person asked):

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=covid+19+natural+immunity

As this quick PubMED search shows, there are MANY studies on natural immunity when it comes to COVID-19. Many of these research studies are funded in-whole or in-part by the U.S. government.

As is true with most medical research, much of it is conducted either by professional medical practitioners (unaffiliated with the government) and research from academic medical institutions.

The interesting thing is that most of this research is peer-reviewed. This is where research is presented through professional journals. This opens it for scrutiny from other doctors, researchers and medical academics. The goal is replication of the same results -- or strong opposition if the original findings aren't accurate.

Hi Chriss,
The problem is that their is no platform for strong opposition.If you report findings on youtube,facebook or twitter or the like its takedown ,forced down,deleted or its fact checked by non qualified politically motivated fact checkers.The mainstream media wont report it.
So where do you go from there?
Where are the studies on Ivermectin ,they are either not being done delibrately or are being censored and made fun off?Where are the studies on Vitamin D ,similiar.
Peer review is the way to go and is correct but it is being nullified and is almost irrelevant.urs staff

So, in your opinion, who was it that first brought up all of these issues that diverted or "hijacked" the post?

If someone is responding to something that is addressed to them, then it isn't "hijacking" anything. If you go back and read the posts of this thread in order, I think that it is fairly clear how it digressed.

It is possible to discuss this as brethren without "playing the man" through insults, insinuations, accusations or finger-pointing at other brethren for what amounts to both prayerfully-researched medical opinions and prayerfully-researched conclusions about both medicine and policy.

Hi TMK,

I'm sorry to hear that. My neighbor died a few days before Christmas. He was in his 60s and had COVID-19. To my knowledge, he didn't know Jesus. I had brought up Christ to him previously and he always wanted to change the conversation. A family member told me that, when he was found, he had already been dead for several days. So, I only hope that (if he didn't die immediately) that he called out to the Lord.

I agree with much of what you're pointing out in this regard. I also agree with Greg's point about what REALLY matters as the "big picture." For some, it has become an "us against everyone else” dogmatic approach. I feel that this is the wrong approach.

It isn’t just that some think that they are on the side of God versus others are on the side of Satan. Some think that they are on the side of God versus others on the side of "science” (that is attributed to Satan). Others believe that they are on the side of God versus others are on the side of gross ignorance. And still others believe that they are on the side of science versus those who are on the side of ignorance in the name of God.

This is the wrong approach all around. There are people who can be vaccinated and yet remain strongly opposed to this world’s systems (in general) as well as being scrutineers of the findings of science in general. They can also cite medical research without fearing the assumption of those who disagree (and sometimes also cite some medical evidence too).

To be fully truthful and honest ”“ necessary for believers ”“ we have to consider all of those things. After all, as believers, we should be better with real honesty than the children of this world. However, this does mean that if we engage in medical claims that we should be prepared to substantiate the basis for our claims.

I feel that we should be better than that -- especially in regard to conversations in Christian discussion forums. After all, the world occasionally meanders into our midst and is watching (or "reading") us. More importantly, the Lord sees all of this and knows the heart.

Hi Chris,
Your science versus God arguement holds no water.Many scientists including the nobel prize winner who discovered HIV have said the virus was man made but he gets ignored for a facebook factchecker.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luc_Montagnier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=durcHyxpFT4

The post was hijacked the from the very start and you have been very dogmatic all the way.
You refuse to accept anyones opinions and have supported TMK who has refused to answer anyones questions and has called anyone who doesnt agree a conspiracy theorist.You have failed to call him out on this.
Their is a bigger truth more important than science and thats deception.
The claim by some that nobody is getting hurt or injuried by vaccines and that their is no censorship or that censorship has no negative impact are ludicrous.
The issue is not whether covid exists,nor whether people are getting sick nor whether a normal vaccine such as polio or smallpox is bad thing.
The motivation behind the covid vaccine is firstly political and secondly financial and whether the vaccine works is a side show,
urs staff

Hi staff

You misinterpreted what I wrote (and what I've been writing). Let's clear up a few things:

- I am NOT staking a "science versus God" argument.
- I have not said that this vaccine is not (or is) manmade.
- I did not hijack this thread.
- I do not refuse to accept anyone's opinions.
- I have not "supported TMK" even if I agree with much of what he has written on certain matters.
- I have not failed to "call him out" for not responding to something that you seemingly demand an answer for (and it is not my responsibility to "call him out" for his responses or lack of responses to you anyway).
- I have not been "dogmatic all the way."
- I am not one of those who have suggested that "nobody is getting hurt or injured by vaccines."
- I have not said that there is no censorship.
- I have not said that censorship has "no negative impact."

All of this is digression from both the original post (that natural immunity from contracting the Omicron variant may provide stronger immunity) as well as my initial post which simply provided a link to PubMed about the relationship between COVID and natural immunity.

Let's be careful when it comes to accusations that aren't true or accurate. As children of God who walk in the light, we should be above this.

Hi Chriss,
Not accusations Chriss ,its accurate,
I notice you didnt comment on Luc Montagnier in your response,
urs staff

Just read a bunch of articles about Montagnier. What a quack.

Hi staff,

Hi Chriss,
Not accusations Chriss ,its accurate....

It was NOT "accurate." In fact, I clearly listed the things that you wrote and/or implied about me which were NOT "accurate."

I notice you didnt comment on Luc Montagnier in your response,

Luc Montagnier? I never said anything about Luc Montagnier. I never mentioned any of his opinions. I also didn't converse with anyone here about him either.

Wow! This thread :-(

Hi MrBillPro,

I agree with your "wow." This thread -- like many others pertaining to COVID that I've read but avoided participation in -- took a surprising turn.

My initial purpose for entering it was NOT to "convince" or "convert" people to adopt my own opinions. In fact, I think that I've (more or less) avoided stating specific opinions. Rather, my purpose was really to point out the need for clarity with our words. If we stake a claim, then we need to substantiate it.

After all, we will all give an account for our words. We may always have differences of opinions or conclusions. However, this doesn't mean that we can accuse, imply (unjustly) or issue judgments reserved for God.

I hope that I haven't offended anyone -- but simply to challenge the way we present our views. It is not my intention to offend. Personally, I did feel like I was somewhat attacked. However, it is not my intent to treat anyone wrongly.

Hi TMK and Chriss,

This is the Nobel Prize winner for Virology,What are your
qualifications?This man discovered HIV.

Your qualifications are you "read a bunch of articles"

Again you wont accept science

Wikipedia.

Luc Montagnier

(US: /ËŒmÉ’ntÉ™nˈjeɪ, ËŒmoÊŠntɑːnˈjeɪ/;[2] US: /mÉ™nˈ-/,[3] French: [mɔ̃taɲe]; born 18 August 1932) is a French virologist and joint recipient, with Françoise Barré-Sinoussi and Harald zur Hausen, of the 2008 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for his discovery of the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV).[4] He has worked as a researcher at the Pasteur Institute in Paris and as a full-time professor at Shanghai Jiao Tong University in China.[5]

urs staff

Hi Chriss
Whatever.....

I hope that I haven't offended anyone -- but simply to challenge the way we present our views. It is not my intention to offend

urs staff

Hi staff,

Your qualifications are you "read a bunch of articles"

Again you wont accept science

While I cannot speak for TMK, I never claimed or implied that my "qualifications" are that I "read a bunch of articles." Moreover, I am perplexed that you wrote that I "won't accept science."

I don't understand why you keep making such erroneous claims about me. Do you really believe these things? Let me assure you that these things that you've written about me aren't true.

Hi Chriss
Be honest about the subject which you have not ,
urs staff

Hi staff,

Hi Chriss
Be honest about the subject which you have not ,

At the same time, I do not understand why you are engaging in this type of rhetoric. I say this sincerely.

If I have offended you, it was not intended. I do think that you should refrain from unwarranted accusations.

I wasn't directing my comment to anyone in particular, just was sad about all the back and forth. I do realize our struggle is not against flesh and blood, sorry for the interruption, carry on.

Hi Bill,

I didn't think that you were directing your comment to anyone. However, I do still share your "wow." In fact, this "wow" is different because my heart hurts from it. I didn't intend to engage in any sort of back-and-forth. Yet, I felt that the accusations warranted an answer (even if I privately wept over it).

The LORD bless and keep you.

Hi Chriss and TMK

You believe what you want,
In my opinion neither of you have been intellectually honest or even handed about the subject.If you want to take vaccines go ahead nobody is stopping you but dont follow the exact same line the mainstream media (a false Prophet who hates the Church) has done for the last two years regarding vaccines and the mandates etc and say this is the science and everyone else is wrong,
Thats my final word on the subject,
urs staff

Natural Immunity Dr. Aaron Kheriaty:

The required vaccine mandates make no sense at all for people that have already had Covid and now have Natural Immunity that provides better protection and lasts longer than the vaccines and boosters.

https://youtu.be/lFIYYa_mGts

COULD IT BE,..??.I’m asking,..

Several years ago now, as I would go to the Health Clinics,.. there is a chain of them together and scattered throughout the different Counties,...

I noticed that the media that was always and only playing , like CNN.

Fox, at that time had a better reputation of bringing forth, maybe a more truthful news,.. but they would not have that,.. not at all!!

I wondered, WHY??

Were /.. are they trying to program us, w/propaganda ?
For what purpose?

And whatever they put out on the TV, is. *mostly what many / most people watched /relied on.... ?

What about in the homes,.. the cable,... channel TV that is provided.... some homes it stays on perhaps from arising in the morning until going to bed at night.

And if one sounded an objection,... they would call that one what they themselves are,... *conspirator's,... not only that, but they had the people that believed them , helping them by echoing them.

And not only that,... if one would voice an opposing view,... they would take that voice down.....no longer could voice.,... people w/authority,.. highly educated in the matter

People had to go to work,.. they did not have time to catch all the many different resources,.that is to be found on the phone. .different from the main stream.. .. really unfortunate,.. but just could NOT.

But there are some that could from the very beginning of the Covid problem , had time /freedom to seek out , study ,... day after day, seeking the *truth and the *deception of the matter.

The Word says, "Satan ,who *decevith the whole earth...

Revelation 12:9 (KJV)
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
.............
Just for your consideration,

................
elizabeth

Polio vaccine: Hooray!
Tetanus vaccine: Hooray!
Rubella vaccine: Hooray!
Smallpox vaccine: Hooray!
Measles vaccine: Hooray!
Rabies vaccine: Hooray!
Whooping cough vaccine: Hooray!
Mumps vaccine: Hooray!
Chicken pox vaccine: Hooray!
Diphtheria vaccine: Hooray!
Covid vaccine: Devil from hell!

Really?
Brother, did you prayerfully post your last comment?
Were you moved by the Holy Spirit to write that?
I don’t think so.
In fact, your post is stirring up more strife.

Like I say to my kids -
If you stop adding wood, the fire goes out.
☝️

Well JB, it was a round about way of pointing out that of all the vaccine responses to diseases in the past, deception was never brought up as an issue. There were simply diseases that were wreaking havoc on humanity and scientists (yes those horrible ungodly nasty scientists) devised vaccines to help alleviate some of these diseases (my grandmother lost two siblings to childhood disease and my grandfather lost 3).

So Covid comes along like other flus have in the past and scientist devise a vaccine and all of a sudden there is demonic deception.

I can guarantee if this occurred 25 years ago before social media we would be no where near the state we are in now. Everybody would have got vaccinated and the pandemic would have ended or close to ended.

Todd, You need to thank God for Mark 16:18 that says if we drink any deadly thing, that it will not harm us. It seems to me Brother that you have drank the cool aid, and you are still here.

As are billions of others!

My kool-aid is lemon-lime. What flavor is yours?

From Dr. Michael Brown:
" Yesterday afternoon, my dear friend Brad Kauffman left this earth to be with the Lord after a terrible battle with COVID. We met when he was 17 and I was 28, as one of my first ministry school students. Over the years, he became a close friend of our family and played and sang at both of our daughters' wedding. And he would sometimes travel with me and minister powerfully in music. Yet somehow, he never married until about 6 years ago, when he married the love of his life, Nikki, whose first husband had died of cancer. What a heartbreaking loss! While I imagine Brad is already leading worship in God's heavenly presence, his family could really use your prayers. And thank you again for all prayers for him these recent days. That was a great expression of love.”

It's ok to be passionate about most anything, but when our passion/passions come to the point to where we're pushing it on others so bad, and it begins to create strife, it's time to let it go. Perfect example that just happen with me and a lady friend "not girlfriend” yesterday. She’s into all this natural healing stuff, and I’m not condoning or condemning it. I’ve had sinus infections forever, "I’m in the a/c business and sometimes have service work in attics” Doc said I would probably have them all my working life,"I’ve tried masks they do not help”.

So, she got on my case yesterday about antibiotics, to the point of a pretty heated debate, I’ve been down the road of looking for every natural fix there is, nothing has ever helped me get healed but the antibiotics. I don’t understand why some folks just don’t understand this.

There is a saying that Heaven helps those who help themselves. So, if you are sick and you want God to help you, you have to do something. You don’t just sit down doing nothing about it and believing that God will just come and work miracle in your life. It is also a fact that God is the Author of medical science. He gave the medical know how to human beings. So, when we have recourse to medical science, we do so in the consciousness that God Himself created it.

It does not in any way contradict or detract from our faith, "if we use something that God Himself has made available for us” this is what we may not be sure of, I guess this is where our relationship with the Lord and our faith is really tested. Opting for medication or going to the hospital does not contradict our religious stance. It's ok to agree to disagree, but I'm going with what "my” interpretation of what I believe the word of God say’s.

As for as the vaccines, if you think they work, go get one, if you don’t feel comfortable getting one, then don’t. But please don’t do what this lady did to me, don’t push and push until it causes strife between folks. I know she’s very passionate about all her natural fixes, but James 4:1 say’s "What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?”

I agree Mr. Bill. It’s time to let this discussion go. My intention in sharing the original post was to shed light on a subject where there has been so much deception and misinformation, but like discussing politics, when the discussion enters into strife, it’s better to let it go.

…”But reject foolish and ignorant speculation, for you know that it breeds quarreling. and the servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome, but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, and forbearing. He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.”

(2:Timothy 2;23-25)

Hi
It was also a round about way of stirring up strife.
As is your comment " (yes those horrible ungodly nasty scientists)" In general, your tone is quite mocking.

BTW, where can I get a Polio, Tetanus, Rubella, Smallpox, Measles, Rabies, Whooping cough, Mumps, Chicken pox or Diphtheria booster shot?

Blessings

Hi ccchhhrrriiisss

I hope you are aware that there are also thousands of peer reviewed articles affirming evolution. Do you believe them too?

Blessings Brother, and sorry about some of the things that was said to you.

Hi jochbaptist,

Blessings Brother, and sorry about some of the things that was said to you.

I confess that I have been guilty of it in the past too -- which is one of the reasons that I have become much more slow to speak (or write). I still visit SermonIndex almost daily. I encourage other believers to utilize this website -- for I truly believe in its mission.

I am also very stimulated by conversation and even debate on the forums themselves. Even if I do not participate in the discussion or debate, it often causes me to search the Scriptures over the matters discussed.

In other cases (where Scripture isn't the underlying basis for the debates), I still look for the evidence used (often by both or multiple sides) for substantiation. At times, I am "convinced" (or strongly persuaded) by someone's position. At other times, I am not convinced by either (or any) side.

I just feel that there must be an underlying exemplification of Christ Jesus in our words. We should not be "easily persuaded" but seekers of the truth with that Berean manner mentioned in Acts or the encourage of the apostle Paul to "prove [or test] everything" but "hold on to the good" (I Thessalonians 5:21).

While debates and discussions over Scripture are more readily deciphered (due to the supremacy of Scripture alone), the debates over "earthly" matters (including earthly matters with spiritual principles or connections) are a bit more difficult. In those cases, the evidence goes first to the Scriptures (as undeniable truth) and then to the collected data.

This is why I think that Paul encouraged Timothy to "refuse profane and old wives" (I Timothy 4:7) as well as "vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called" (I Timothy 6:20). Otherwise, we become dabblers if we engage in such debates using a surface level of study but attribute our findings from what we read to our own "spiritual discernment." This is one reason why I find myself so concerned with what I write and what I read from others.

I hope you are aware that there are also thousands of peer reviewed articles affirming evolution. Do you believe them too?

Thus, much of their "conclusions" are based upon conjecture. This conjecture is derived primarily from connecting the dots between very meager data points. It is certainly a hypothesis of most evolutionary biologists (hence the descriptor) but it isn't a pure review of data as in current and present-day observations.

It is more about hypothesizing the large gaps between specimens rather than simply identifying the data gathered from the actual specimens. It is an attempt to explain the differences in the data of completely different (but assumed related) specimens -- which can result in faulty assumptions and conclusions.

This is a very different thing from the norms of peer-review. Peer-review isn't focused solely upon the conclusions or conjecture derived from connecting dots. Rather, in most areas of science, it is about the data itself.

For instance, someone can hypothesize that COVID-19 is merely a strain of influenza. However, under a microscope (and via enormous data sets from testing/sampling), there is a clear distinction between the a novel "coronovirus" and "influenza."

While many of their symptoms are the same, they are essentially two different viruses that still behave somewhat differently. The flu is a strain of Influenza-A and Influenza-B. COVID-19, on the other hand, is a new coronavirus designated as "SARS-CoV-2."

The data submitted for peer-review will not assert otherwise because it is clear (via observation and data collection) that these are two different viruses that (in many ways) behave similarly. Yet, they are still different viruses that also behave differently too.

This is what the peer-review in virology does: It maps the behavior, progression and mutations of viruses and (sometimes) suggests or hypothesizes how to prevent its spread or potential treatments and cures for those who contract it (or one of the variants).

So, "peer-review" is not an exact science itself. It is the gathering and collecting of data and hypotheses and opening it for scrutiny and review by others in the field (or even those who aren't). In the field of "evolutionary biology," there is less actual "data" than there is a review of hypotheses over fossil records -- connecting dots. And, we realize that "connecting dots" (or, as we say, reading between the lines) is problematic in life itself.

As such, I can read a submission to a peer-review article and disagree with the hypothesis or conclusion but still acknowledge the submitted data collection itself.

In the realm of medicine and health sciences, the data submission in one article can be compared with the data submissions elsewhere. If the observations and collected data tends to commonly show the same things, then this is considered a trend that would need explanation. Those explanations (also hypotheses) can be tested, submitted and scrutinized too.

Brother, I hope that this clarifies what you were asking (particularly about my views) in this regard. The Lord bless and keep you.

https://rumble.com/vrs323-dr.-peter-mccullough-reveals-the-truth-about-omicron.html

We are asked not to add fuel to the fire then there is a post from infowars and Dr. Peter McCullough