De-Greecing The Church - part 1 and 2

A very eye-opening teaching from David Pawson about the influence of greek philosophy into both catholicism and the reformed church as well as great swathes of what calls itself the evangelical church. He mentions Augustine as common anchestor of both streams in Christendom.

He contrasts it with Hebrew thinking that serves as a much better paradigm to understand God's work and attributes.

https://www.davidpawson.co.uk/search/?mediaID=3421&t=De-Greecing The Church - part 1

https://www.davidpawson.co.uk/search/?mediaID=3422&t=De-Greecing The Church - part 2

Had noticed that many if not most of the "modern” doctrines were premised on concepts that were themselves unbiblical, yet they permeated almost every aspect of the modern Christian world-
After just a lil research it was clear most of our core concepts were patently Greek, stemming from a time before Jesus-
In most cases, when attempting to address the inescapable fact of our errancy it was met with either a doe eyed stare or a fierce defensing of said beliefs. This left me me in a quandary,... was I deluded?? How could this be? It was a very disturbing realization that many/most believers had fundamental concepts of God weren’t Hebrewcentric but were in fact Greekcentric or flat out pagan 😳🥺

While researching another topic, I had stumbled upon brother Pawsons sermons exposing these very things in a well researched and lovingly presented fashion- needless to say this really helped to address my concerns regarding the deluding effects of these foreign concepts having crept in very early on (see Acts 20:29) and have, like tares, grown along side the wheat and have permeated the church for 2 millennia, mostly going unnoticed as they were in fact promoted by many within the body.

The value of brother Pawsons series is immeasurable in light of the deception that has plagued the body for centuries.

I couldn’t recommend another series more than this one, and until this core core issue is resolved, it’s doubtful any believer could ever grow to maturity without being confronted by the gross inconsistencies in what we believe verses what the Bible says 🤷🏽”â™‚️
Having said that, I can wholeheartedly indorse this series as it was a joy to discover someone else had also noticed and was in position to confront the lies directly and with a learned hand 🙏🏻

What a great way to begin the new year 😇

We also need to de-Judaize the Church.

David Pawson is de-Greecing the church and Judaizing her.

It is clear in the Bible that the Church IS the Israel of God.

Christians are rooted IN CHRIST and in the love of God and no one else and nothing else.

Col. 2:6-7 --
Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

Eph. 3:14-19 ”“
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

Rom. 10:12-13 -- There is NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Greek for the same Lord is LORD OF ALL. WHOEVER will call on THE NAME OF THE LORD will be saved.

ONLY JESUS.

The Joel Richardson Conference | Session One: Debunking Replacement Theory | Friday, September 10th
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke-x-am9hRQ

I watched this last week and through many Scriptures, I believe Joel proves that the Church has not replaced Israel.

But that is just my opinion. God bless,
Lisa

Lysa- when you say "Israel” what do you mean exactly? Ethnic Jews? Citizens of the nation of Israel? Those who practice Judaism regardless of their ethnicity?

What about those who are only 10% Jewish? Or 1%? (Per my dad’s DNA he has 2% European Jew ancestry so I likely have around 1%) Am I part of "Israel?”

If not, where do you draw the line? How many persons with pure Jewish ancestry are left?

You wrote;
"watched this last week and through many Scriptures, I believe Joel proves that the Church has not replaced Israel.”

Yes this has been clearly proven false by the scriptures ... even Paris Reidhead publicly (from the pulpit) repented of having been taken in by this rather seductive doctrine.

If only there were any NT passages identifying the church as Israel. There aren't any.

Where is the term "new Israel" found in the Bible? Should preachers and teachers who use this term first inform their audience that they are using a term that does not exist in scripture?

Meanwhile, deJudaizing the church has historically proven to be pretty expensive for the Jews. Jews haven't forgotten that the followers of the Prince of Peace have historically been among their chief persecutors and slayers.

I wish someone would answer my question.

Lysa- when you say "Israel” what do you mean exactly? Ethnic Jews? Citizens of the nation of Israel? Those who practice Judaism regardless of their ethnicity?

What about those who are only 10% Jewish? Or 1%? (Per my dad’s DNA he has 2% European Jew ancestry so I likely have around 1%) Am I part of "Israel?”

If not, where do you draw the line? How many persons with pure Jewish ancestry are left?

I, personally, don't draw the line anywhere. The Lord knows those who are His bloodline or those who have been grafted in! He has left no one out.

We are all His. Jesus didn't die for two different brides. He will fulfill His promises from Abraham forward for the Jewish people (including you!), they have not been banished from God's kingdom.

That's just my take on it, you should really watch the video, Joel is so much more knowledgeable.

God bless you and congratulations on your heritage!
Lisa

Yes but Paul takes the blood out of it when he said not all blood Israelites are Israel (Romans 9:6).

True Israelites are the remnant who believe and follow the one true God, which includes all members of the Godhead. Therefore,

True Israelites = Christians

True Christians= The Church

Ergo, True Israel = The Church

How does that cancel or nullify the still outstanding promises originally made to the nation of Israel? Israel's corporate calling still stands even though that calling does not necessarily insure every member of the nation will respond in faith.

Will it be fair for Christ to return to Jerusalem!? Or will it be unfair because He will have singled out one nation above the others?

.... keep reading to where Paul unpacks two chapters later in Romans 11:

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

\t\t

//there is a remnant //

Who is the remnant, today?

Sorry guys, this thread is not about replacement theology, but about the underlying cultural-historic thinking patterns that forged systems like reformed theology and catholicism.

Has anyone actually listened to the talks?

David Pawson also debunked Dispensationalism as being too pro Israel.

He was a great friend of the nation but dared to plainly address large Jewish crowds about sins like abortion and the fact that Messianic Jews are denied Israeli citizenship.

Thanks for the reminder narrowpath. My apologies.

I might add though that Israel's present unbelief does not mean that God is through with the nation as a whole.

Thanks for your links.

Lysa,

I have listened to Joel Richardson's message.

Most of what he said is already commonly taught and can be scripturally challenged/debunked.

At around 50:00, he equated Amillennialism and "Replacement Theology" with Mental Illness.

It is one thing to disagree, another thing to make such an unacceptable and arrogant statement.

Jade
I don't quite see why you started the discussion about Israel. This has nothing to do with the topic and it is a bit unfair on the poster.
Just a thought for the new Year and a reminder for all of us.

Markus

Markus

I was simply responding to what David Pawson said in his message. David Pawson's message is the topic.

Narrowpath,

David Pawson also debunked Dispensationalism as being too pro Israel.

I listened to both messages. Didn’t hear this. Must have missed it then. Appreciate if you can point me to the part of the message where he said this.

Thanks.

I repeat what I said in my first post:

"David Pawson is de-Greecing the church and Judaizing her.”

The "Hebrew thinking that serves as a much better paradigm to understand God's work and attributes” mentioned in the OP includes David Pawson’s rejection of "Replacement Theology”, his belief that the church is rooted in the Jewish nation, etc., etc., etc.....

He was a great friend of the nation but dared to plainly address large Jewish crowds about sins like abortion and the fact that Messianic Jews are denied Israeli citizenship.

"A Jew is one who practices the Jewish religion, Judaism. This includes both converts and those who have been members of the Jewish religion since birth. A Jew is one who is a descendant of the ancient Israelite ethnic group, and therefore is a member of the Jewish people."

And I will add now that they are a Nation, one born within their borders. If I remember correctly, Benny Hinn stated about 30 or more years ago that his family was Greek Orthodox and he was born in Israel. Making him Jewish but not a Jew???? I'm not sure how that works. :) :)

Not that my opinion matters but think about it, Jews have protected their way of life for thousands on years. They are not going to grant citizenship to people who believe in Jesus! When Jesus returns, then we'll see!!! lol

God bless you, bro!
Lisa

Trying to learn to interpret and understand the Bible through the Hebrew world view in which it was written has helped me immensely. When trying to do this, one begins to realize how much western baggage if you will has been added to our hermeneutics grid.

Hi Lysa,

David Pawson did not say it in these 2 talks, but in another one

https://www.davidpawson.co.uk/search/?mediaID=3628&t=Dispensational Theology is Too Pro-Israel

Also, if you whish to discuss replacement theology, amillenianism or Joel Richardson, may I kindly suggest you start a new topic.

David Pawson said at the end of his message, De-Greecing the Church Part 2 (around 41:30):

So many people take their thinking from other people, even from the preachers they listen to, instead of getting into the Word themselves.

These words of David Pawson must also apply to David Pawson’s own teaching.

I would like to continue this thread to comment on some of David Pawson’s views and assertions.

Anyone who does not agree with me is free to disagree.

David Pawson said:

”Soak yourself in the Bible. It is a Hebrew Book”
--- De-Greecing the Church Part 2 (around 40:10)

I assume when David Pawson said that the Bible is a Hebrew book, he means it is a "Jewish" book.

I cannot agree with David Pawson.

The Lord Jesus said to the Jewish people regarding OT Scriptures:

John 5:39-40 --
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; *** it is these that testify about Me ***; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

The Jewish people are not the centrepiece of Old Testament Scripture.

The Lord Jesus Christ alone is.

Long before Abraham, Jesus told the Jewish people, I AM (John 8:58).

If the OT is a book about Christ who is the great I AM long before Abraham, how then can the OT be a "Jewish” book?

Paul said that OT scriptures give us wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus (2 Tim. 3:15).

In the Books of the Law are shadows of good things to come IN CHRIST (Heb. 10).

Of the Books of the Prophets, the Lord Jesus Himself said:

Luke 24:44-48 ”“
Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.”

Peter wrote:

1 Pet. 1:10-12 ”“
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven”” things into which angels long to look.

That is, the Prophets prophesied about the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

Rev. 13:8 tells us that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

The OT therefore touches on eternal truths that are before time, before there was any man on earth.

How then can the OT be a "Jewish" book?

David Pawson said:

Study the Jewish people. Try to have Jewish friends to help you read the Bible, because it is not ours, it is theirs; to read their scriptures.
--- De-Greecing the Church Part 2 (around 42:24)

Comment:

The scribes were well-versed in their scriptures, yet they did not recognize Christ (their Messiah) when He came and rejected Him.

Paul said to the Jewish people:

Acts 28:26-27 ”“
So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: "The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, saying, ‘Go to this people and say: "Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; And seeing you will see, and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”’

It is NOT to the Jewish people that we must go to know and understand Biblical Truths.

IT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO WILL GUIDE US INTO ALL TRUTH! (John 16:13-15)

/How then can the OT be a "Jewish" book?/

How can a book inspired by God and written by Jews in the Hebrew language and which extensively covers the history of the Jewish people while displaying the Hebrew world view not be a Jewish book?

God willed to make Himself known and did so progressively, and ever more fully in the history of His peculiar people.

Why did God more than once describe Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Since in God's infinite wisdom it pleased Him to choose one people as the medium of His self-revelation to the whole of mankind in accord with His original promise to Abraham - "In the shall all the families of the earth be blessed" - He placed that people in the most central position possible, and set "the bounds" of all other peoples "according to the number of the children of Israel."

God's infinite mercy, His marvelous grace and everlasting faithfulness, and also His righteousness, justice, and truth are displayed in a most conspicuous manner in His dealings with the Jewish nation. As recorded in the HEBREW SCRIPTURES! Thank God Christ is the pre-eminent One of which all the rest revolves, but the OT is not about Christ ALONE, but also about the nation through Christ was revealed. We gain instruction today reading about God's dealings with them. The Bible is A thoroughly Hebrew/Jewish book.

The Scriptures of the whole Bible are mainly of Hebrew origin, and the Savior was Hebrew along with the founding church. We should never fail to keep this perspective before us.

Abraham means 'father of many nations'
Romans 4:18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as he had been told, "So shall your offspring be.”

Christ is supreme
Colossians 1:15he Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…

Jesus builds the Church and it belongs to Him - and Him only
Matthew 16:18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed

Neither Jews nor Greeks nor Gentiles have first given anything to God
Romans 11:35 "Who has first given to God, that God should repay him?” 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen..

That the OT was written in Hebrew does not make it a Jewish book just as the NT in Greek is not a Greek book.

The OT was not written by Jews but by the Holy Spirit who spoke through men of God (2 Sam. 23:2, Mark 12:36, Acts 1:16, Luke 1:70, 2 Pet. 1:20-21)

The OT is therefore not a Jewish book. It is the Word of God written by the Holy Spirit through men of God who were Jewish.

The OT is not a Jewish book. It contains the oracles of God that were entrusted to the Jews (Rom. 3:2).

/The OT is therefore not a Jewish book. It is the Word of God written by the Holy Spirit through men who were Jewish./

These things are self-evident. Perhaps we are splitting hairs to a degree, or maybe I am. I maintain the Bible can rightly be called a Jewish book although its ultimate inspiration is from the Holy Spirit. I understand what you are saying, but am a bit cautious because I know historically many times such sentiments have been taken too far and used against the Jews in many negative ways. But that doesn't mean you are doing do.

Thank you.

I am not against the Jewish people.

Neither do I exalt them because only Christ is to be exalted.

And Christ’s Church must be neither Jew nor Greek but be clothed with Christ alone (Gal. 3:27).

Col. 3:10-11 ”“
and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him ”” a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

but Christ is all, and in all.

Blessings

David Pawson said:

… the whole Bible is Hebrew from beginning to end.
--- De-Greecing the Church Part 1 (around 11:49)

I assume David Pawson is saying that the whole Bible is about the Jewish people from beginning to end.

This is what T. Austin-Sparks said:

"From Genesis, the beginning, right through the Scriptures, it is one thing: man. No, it is two men, and what we are going to be occupied with is this double humanity, or two humanities, for they are the subject matter of the whole Bible. The Bible is the story of God and man, and everything is gathered into that; nothing is in the Bible but what relates to that.

"Of course, the Bible begins with God: "In the beginning God....” First we have the fact of God. This is where you start, and you are not far along before you come upon man. Human history begins with God, God as a fact””God initiating everything, taking the initiative; God at work””God’s mind working out in action, in what He does……………

"That man Adam, the New Testament tells us, is a figure of Him that was to come, in Whom God will ultimately find His full rest. Man constituted; the man conditioned; the man environed; the man probationed. All God’s interests are centered in humanity; not in things, as such. No thing is an end with God. Man is God’s end. Humanity is God’s end.

"With this thought, we are right back there in the very center of the interests of God, humanity. But that man Adam disappointed God, failed Him, and was rejected by God. And at that point, God re-acted, re-acted with the intimation of Another One, Another Man. A Representative Man, Whom God had foreordained before the foundation of the world. This Man is foreordained and then forecast, foreshadowed; and that line of the reaction of God toward the Man, against this other man, runs all the way through like a red line through the Old Testament. In figure, in type, in prophecy, in the spiritual history of an elect line, all moving on toward that Other Man, that Other Humanity, the different Humanity, until we reach the New Testament.”
----- Taken from "The Great Transition from One Humanity to Another” by T. Austin-Sparks

I agree with T. Austin-Sparks.

God has chosen the Jews to teach and demonstrate his ways to all mankind. I see the great wisdom of God in it. Israel is right in between Asia, Africa and Europe. They are not better nor worse than any other people. They are temporarily ignorant towards their own Messiah at large to their detriment and to our advantage.

This truth is beyond my intellectual grasp.

//God has chosen the Jews to teach and demonstrate his ways to all mankind. I see the great wisdom of God in it.//

It might be helpful if you expand on this- in particular whether you think that this is still God’s "wisdom” today- or whether you simply mean that through the time of the apostles this was God’s plan.

It seems clear from the NT that it is *the Church* God has chosen to spread His gospel.

It seems clear from the NT that it is *the Church* God has chosen to spread His gospel.

It is absolutely clear.

Matt. 28:19-20 and Acts 1:8 are for the Church, not the Jewish people

David Pawson said:

The NT, it is true is written in the Greek language. But every writer, bar one, was a Hebrew, and though the language is Greek, the thought is Hebrew. It is still a Jewish book. The one Gentile writer, Doctor Luke, got all his information from Jewish propagandist called Paul and so our whole Bible is Hebrew from beginning to end.
--- De-Greecing the Church Part 1 (around 11:25)

Comment:

It is true that all the NT writers, except Luke, were ethnic Jews. But they DID NOT write as Jews. They wrote as Christians, in Christ. They wrote by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Christians, in Christ, are no longer regarded as Jew or Gentile (Gal. 3:28).

The NT is definitely not a Jewish book. It is a completely Christian book.

The writers were certainly not immersed in Hebrew thought.

Their minds had been renewed. Their minds were on things above, not on things on earth (Col.3:2). They had the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:16).

Paul was certainly not a Jewish propagandist. If he was, the Jews would not have persecuted him and arrested him.

The Jews denounced him:

Acts 21:28 ”“
This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place………

Paul got out of his Jewish roots and rooted himself in Christ. He said:

2 Cor. 5:17 ”“
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

He angrily rebuked the Galatians who were being judaized to seek to be perfected by the works of the Law.

He spoke against the misinterpretation of OT prophecies by the Jewish people:

Acts 13:27 --
For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the utterances of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him.

Luke therefore most certainly did not get his information from a Jewish propagandist. He got his information from a son of God in Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:26) who determined to know nothing except Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor. 2:2) and because of this was persecuted by the Jews.

How then can the NT be a Jewish book?

Hi Jade, you seem to have an issue with the undeniable jewish heritage and hebrew thought influence of the bible.

A Christ believing Jew will still remain an ethnic Jew. He does not become a "Christian" per se, but a believer in their Messiah. They are the natural branches re-plugged into the holy olive tree. Yet in Christ, there is no difference between them and us Gentiles, neither now nor in glory.

Jews who come to Christ often have a very good grasp of fulfilled OT prophesies, as David Pawson stated.

Even the New Covenant is in effect with Israel, not with the gentile church in the first place. The gentile Church is invited into the covenant God made through Jesus with Israel because the Jews rejected their Messiah at large, so we gentiles were grafted in as unnatural branches and adopted as children of God. At Christs return they will finally recognize Him and will wail and mourn over their folly.

You can also check Lance Lambert, Derek Prince and Dr Michael Brown on these topics, and they pretty much agree on it.

Hebrews 8:7-11

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of ISRAEL and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of ISRAEL after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

The NT writers were Jews but they didn't write as Jews?

/Christians, in Christ, are no longer regarded as Jew or Gentile (Gal 3:28)./

In Acts 21:39 and 22:3, why many years after his conversion to Christ did Paul (who wrote Galatians) still introduce himself as a Jew?

"But Paul said, "I AM A JEW from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city; and I implore you, permit me to speak to the people." (Acts 21:39)

"Then he said, I AM INDEED A JEW, born in Tarsus of Cilicia,
but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our father's law, and was zealous toward God as you are today" (Acts 22:3).

This was Paul supposedly getting out of his Jewish roots?

/The NT is definitely not a Jewish book. It is a completely
Christian book/

That just happened to be written by JEWS.

/The writers were certainly not immersed in Hebrew thought./

Paul, a HEBREW of the HEBREWS, who was instructed in the very essence and fine details of the law (which saves no man), was not immersed in Hebrew thought? Paul, who knew the OT backwards and forwards, was not immersed in Hebrew thought? Surely you jest! How can such questions even occur in the first place?

/How can the NT be a Jewish book?/

I guess questions of this type may be termed as over the top theology found in many Calvinistic, Reformed and Sovereign Grace circles. It's a Jewish book because the Hebrew race is the race God chose to reveal Himself to the world through. If a Jewish person becomes a believer, what an insult it may be to tell them now they are no longer Jews. While others tell them that when we get saved we all become Jews. I don't believe this questioning of things Jewish as presented is scripturally based nor healthy overall regarding our witness to still unbelieving Jews.

Again, why did Paul still introduce himself as a Jew many years after his conversion to Christ?

//Again, why did Paul still introduce himself as a Jew many years after his conversion to Christ?//

Perhaps because he was addressing Jews and trying to persuade them?

/Perhaps because he was addressing Jews and trying to persuade them?/

So he was purposefully lying to them? What part of your theology would cause you to present such a scenario?

It seems scripturally evident that Paul did not consider himself to no longer be a Jew because he was in Christ.

Paul even addressed unbelieving Jews as his brethren and countrymen. "For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for MY BRETHREN, MY COUNTRYMEN, according to the flesh, who are ISRAELITES,... (Romans 9:3)

Nullification of Jewish ethnicity upon conversion? Scripture does not back such a thing.

David-

In the examples you gave, Paul was addressing Jewish unbelievers. You asked why he would point out he was Jewish if he considered himself a Christian

My point was that he did this so his listeners could relate to him, and listen to him in the first place. Wouldn’t it make sense for him to do this?

He was trying to show them that despite the fact that he was a strict Jew- a Pharisee that once persecuted The Way, he was now convinced that Jesus was alive and Lord and Christ.

Ok. Makes sense. Works for me. PTL!

Hi Jade, you seem to have an issue with the undeniable jewish heritage and hebrew thought influence of the bible.

Hi Philip,

Two threads run through the Old Testament.

One thread is earthly and Jewish that is a testimony of failure and is not for us to follow.

Isa. 5:1-4 (Amp) ”“
Now let me sing for my greatly Beloved [LORD]
A song of my Beloved about His vineyard (His chosen people).
My greatly Beloved had a vineyard on a very fertile slope (the promised land, Canaan).
He dug it all around and cleared away its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine (the people of Judah).
And He built a tower in the center of it;
And also hewed out a wine vat in it.
Then He expected it to produce [the choicest] grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.
And now, says the LORD,
O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard (My people).
What more could have been done for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
When I expected it to produce good grapes, why did it yield worthless ones?

The other thread is the line of Christ which is holy and divine. Its root is not in the Jewish people. It goes back to the days of Adam and Eve when the seed of the woman was promised to save all mankind. It is rooted in God’s promise made BEFORE TIME BEGAN to give us eternal life in the Lord Jesus Christ (Titus 1:2, 2 Tim. 1:9).

Only the second thread, the line of Christ, leads to eternal life. This is the line we must get into. It is the only life-line.

We will not have eternal life beholding the Jewish people.

Only Jesus.

John 6:40 --
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

There is no revelation of God in the Jewish people.

Christ Himself is the revelation of God.

John 14:7,9 ”“
If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also………… He who has seen Me has seen the Father…………

Blessings

I'm quoting the following verse again:
35 "Who has first given to God, that God should repay him?” 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.…

A few more important scriptures:
1 Corinthians 10:11 These things happened to them as examples for us. They were written down to warn us who live at the end of the age.
Romans 15:4 Such things were written in the Scriptures long ago to teach us. And the Scriptures give us hope and encouragement as we wait patiently for God’s promises to be fulfilled.

Instead of trying to work out who the messengers were, we should focus on the message that they delivered.
We have missed the main warnings, teachings and encouragement of scripture. !
We should seek the tree of live and not the tree of knowledge.

Blessings

Markus

/There is no revelation of God in the Jewish people./

Your statement does not stand up to scriptural scrutiny.

"concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David, according to the flesh,..."

2 Cor. 5:16 ”“
Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE KNOWN CHRIST ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, YET NOW WE KNOW HIM IN THIS WAY NO LONGER.

Rom. 1:1-4 ”“
Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, WHO WAS DECLARED THE SON OF GOD WITH POWER BY THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS, JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD,

John 20:31 ”“
but these have been written so that you may believe that JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Col. 1:19 ”“
For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,

Col. 2:9 ”“
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete,

NOTE: CAPS ARE JUST FOR EMPHASIS

How do you explain this away.... ?

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said,(((( I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.))))
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

(Emphasis added)

Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Rom. 10:11-13 ”“
For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

As you quoted, "who was born a descendant of David..."

So revelation from God came through the Jewish race and people.

-The Bible was written by Jews but is not a Jewish book.
-The writers of the NT were not immersed in Hebrew thought.

These are reality denying proposals. If any Christian theology produces an inifference, detachment, or even antagonism toward things Jewish, even though there is still unbelief among the Jewish people, there is likely something fundamentally wrong with that theological expression.

Ok let me be more clear,...

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

How do you explain away the words of Christ Himself in this declaration?

Edited for grammatical error)

and also

John 4:21-23
21 Jesus saith unto her, ....
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the JEWS.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

The revelation that the Father now seeks any and all who will worship Him in spirit and truth was spoken through a Jewish man and was later written down and recorded by a Jewish writer.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Here Paul clearly states that the blood of Christ makes us (who are in Christ) partakers in the commonwealth of Israel 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Ephesians 3:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

(((6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:)))

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

verse 6 in Ephesians 3, literally states that the mystery received to Paul , apostles, prophets etc... was that the gentiles (non-Jew) would partake of the inheritance of Israel through Christ ✝️

This is the literal "theme” of our capacity of participation as put forth by a clear, straightforward reading of the text ....

There are not only many other verses, the entire text is literally aimed at this end - 💯 non-negotiable

// would partake of the inheritance of Israel through Christ//

But the only Israelites (who are the Israelites today?”” not an insignificant question BTW) who have any inheritance are those who have bowed the knee to Jesus as Messiah.

This principle runs through the Bible:

Abel NOT Cain.
Jacob NOT Esau.
King David NOT King Saul.
The Second Man Christ (in whom ALL are made alive) NOT the First Man Adam (in whom ALL die).

The first is rejected.

Food for thought.

The Lord Jesus also said:

Matt. 19:30 ”“
"But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.”

Matt. 20:16 ”“
"So the last shall be first, and the first last.”

There has been a reversal.

Acts 28:27-28 ”“
"For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!

Just some thoughts.

Yet Acts 27-28 is by far not God's final word concerning the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. It should not be presented as such.

THE FINAL WORD

1 Cor. 15:20-28 ”“
………… For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
But each in his own order:
Christ the first fruits,
after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power…………
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

The order according to above scripture:

(1) Christ
(2) The Church
(3) The rest of mankind, Jews and Gentile.

If any Christian theology produces an inifference, detachment, or even antagonism toward things Jewish, even though there is still unbelief among the Jewish people, there is likely something fundamentally wrong with that theological expression.

This is New Testament Christian theology:

1 Cor. 2:2 ”“
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

Rom. 10:12-13 --
There is NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Greek for the same Lord is LORD OF ALL. WHOEVER will call on THE NAME OF THE LORD will be saved.

(Note: Caps for emphasis)

Jews and Gentiles are all equally loved by God (John 3:16) and all are called to be saved in Christ.

This is biblical, therefore correct.

1 Cor. 2:9-16 ”“

But as it is written:

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

BUT GOD HAS REVEALED THEM TO US THROUGH HIS SPIRIT.

For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? EVEN SO NO ONE KNOWS THE THINGS OF GOD EXCEPT THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

NOW WE HAVE RECEIVED, not the spirit of the world, but THE SPIRIT WHO IS FROM GOD, SO THAT WE MAY KNOW THE THINGS FREELY GIVEN TO US BY GOD. THESE THINGS WE ALSO SPEAK, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which THE HOLY SPIRIT TEACHES, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?”

BUT WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST.

Note: CAPS MINE FOR EMPHASIS.

…………no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

Comment:

Therefore, only Christians who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit can know the things of God.

John 4:21-23
21 Jesus saith unto her, ....
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the JEWS.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Note the "But” in verse 23.

All things transitioned to *Spirit* and *Truth* at the first coming of Christ.

The Israel of God, at Christ’s first coming, also transitioned to God’s true and spiritual Israel.

The Lord Jesus said to Nicodemus that one must be born again to see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus was a ruler of the Jews. If Nicodemus had to be born again of Spirit, then the whole nation must be born again of Spirit too.

This is God’s true and spiritual Israel:

Rom. 9:6-8 ”“
For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Gal. 4:28 ”“
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

Gal. 3:29 ”“
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Therefore, Christians in Christ are Abraham’s seed (Gal. 3:29), are children of the promise (Gal. 4:28) and are God’s true and spiritual Israel (Rom. 9:6-8).

Only the true and spiritual Israel can worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

/This is biblical, therefore correct./

Yes!, but it just gets absurd and unbiblical when you incorrectly state things like the Bible is not a Jewish book and the writers of the NT were not immersed in Hebrew thought. Personally, I'm saved because of a covenant made with THEM, the Jewish people. I have no desire to be detached from things Jewish through whom faith in Christ was first revealed to the world.

docs:

I am not trying to convince you.

I have said in an earlier post that anyone who does not agree with me is free to disagree.

You have made this statement against me:

………it just gets absurd and unbiblical when you incorrectly state things like the Bible is not a Jewish book and the writers of the NT were not immersed in Hebrew thought.

I simply ask:

If the writers of the NT were immersed in Hebrew thought, why was Paul so severely persecuted to the extent that five times he received from the Jews "thirty-nine lashes” (2 Cor. 11:24) and why did they arrest him "for the sake of the hope of Israel” (Acts 28:20)?

You are free to hold on to what you believe.

I say again:

Anyone who does not agree with me is free to disagree.

Atonement for sins in the OT was paramount in the Hebrew mindset. No other people or culture of that day had this unique perspevtive.Then the greater once for all atonement by Christ is the centerpiece of the NT. Atonement was central to the Hebrew mindset and world view. I don't think it is a stretch to say Paul and the other writers of the NT had this Hebrew concept central in their thinking and writing, especially the greater and eternally signifigant atonement of Christ. Redemption through blood atonement is a
thoroughly Jewish concept written out and recorded by Jewish writers in a Jewish book called the Bible.

If I'm free to disagree with what appeared from you to even lean toward antagonism toward things Jewish then that is what I was doing. Disagreeing. If I didn't do it or say it quite right, it wasn't intentionally meant to offend.

I also don't believe coming to Chtist means automatic ethnic nullification. That is not what those scriptures mean. In Svts 21:39 and 22:3, why did Paul introduce himself as a Jew many years after his conversion to Christ? What is your opinion regarding that occurence by Paul if he wax trying to cast off his Jewish roots?

Just deleted my post

Deleted.

Blessings to you, docs.

The Bible is the written Word of God. Don't know why we even discuss this.

Markus,

We are discussing this because David Pawson said in his message:

Study the Jewish people. Try to have Jewish friends to help you read the Bible, because it is not ours, it is theirs; to read their scriptures.

This advice just seems so wrong to me because the whole Bible, from beginning to end, is authored by the Holy Spirit and contains the thoughts of God and only the Holy Spirit can help us understand God’s thoughts.

1 Cor. 2:11-12 ”“
Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

So, for example, if the Holy Spirit is guiding, Ps. 23 can be deeply understood even by someone who does not know much about the profession of a shepherd. And it will be just words without life and hope even to shepherds themselves if the Holy Spirit is not guiding.

Blessings

Y’all can hypothesize and ask questions till the cows come home but it doesn’t change what the scriptures plainly say 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Saying the Bible isn’t a Jewish book is like saying the Constitution isn’t an American document, just silly and a waste of time.💯

Jade if you’re not as you say "trying to convince” anyone yet you come on this thread openly creating divisions where there were none and ha e posted more times than anybody!!

If you’re not "trying to convince” anyone, then please enlighten us as to what on Gods green earth that your objective is in this thread, cause you’re certainly contending for something.... if it’s not to convince others then what is it ??

David Pawson said:

I want to say, to put it very simply, that Augustine more than anybody else recast the Christian faith in a Greek framework and has influenced the entire church ever since.
--- De-Greecing the Church Part 1 (around 1:06:18)

Augustine was the champion of the doctrine of eternal torment.

So we should discard this doctrine also.

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.\t

How could this alone not irrefutably put this notion to rest 🤷🏽”â™‚️

I have just deleted my previous post
Sorry if I caused some confusion
Blessings to all.

David let us know when you have your operation so we can all pray for you

I'll delete mine also.

On Jan 26, I start taking a specialty medicine to raise my platelet level. I will take it for 5 days and if it works, they will "fix" me on Feb 7 in Fargo. The heart center in Fargo has a highly spoken of reputation in the medical world. Thanks for any and all prayers.

[David Pawson said:

Quote:
I want to say, to put it very simply, that Augustine more than anybody else recast the Christian faith in a Greek framework and has influenced the entire church ever since.
--- De-Greecing the Church Part 1 (around 1:06:18)]

This is so true. Augustine was very much influenced by Greek philosophy. In mainstream Greek philosophy the metaphysical and spritual realm is seen as superior to the physical. During the Renaissance period, Greek philosphy had a revival and influenced the Reformers to a much greater degree than many would admit. Calvin was a student of Augustine, Plato and Aristoteles and borrowed heavily from them. This lead him to present salvation as a static concept rather than a person to surrender to. Ironically, Augustine was also one of the main figures that shaped the Catholic church, which is also a system.

Hebrew thought does not divide these realms but sees spirit, soul and body as a unit.

[Augustine was the champion of the doctrine of eternal torment. So we should discard this doctrine also.]

I agree with you to disregard him, but for different reasons.
Universal reconciliation which is not what the bible teaches, but we had discussed that before in lenght and breadth.

At least we know how the doctrine of eternal torment has become so widespread and so deeply entrenched in Christian teaching.

Universal reconciliation which is not what the bible teaches, but we had discussed that before in lenght and breadth.

How very far have Christian hearts fallen short of the length and breadth and depth and height of the love of God that passes knowledge.

Anyway, you said:

Hebrew thought does not divide these realms but sees spirit, soul and body as a unit.

This is what David Pawson said in his message:

But it is a Greek idea that I have a soul in a body. When God breathed into the body of dust that he had made, the body of clay, He breathed into the dust and Adam became a living soul. And people think that means that God put a soul into the clay. No. It says, "The clay became a living soul.” That phrase "a living soul” may be found in Genesis 1 applied to animals. The same phrase. Animals are living souls because in Hebrew thinking, a soul is a living body. It is not something distinct from the body; it is a live body, a living breathing body…………… But the idea that we are made up of two parts, the body of which has little value, and the soul which has real value, has led to Christians talking about saving souls when we are really called to save whole people, to save the living bodies as well………………Lets take a Christian song which is thoroughly Greek: "John Brown’s body lies a-moldering in the grave……and his soul goes marching on.” That is not what Christians believe. That is what Greeks believe.
--- De-Greecing the Church Part 1, from around 22:12

If human beings are living souls and animals are also living souls, then are human beings no different from animals?

When John Brown’s physical body returns to dust in the grave, does John Brown totally ceases to exist? That is, he becomes just like he was never born?

David now knows all of his errors. Not only those from the sermon which have been mentioned in this thread.

He knows each and every one from the beginning of his life to the end.

But it is necessary and helpful for us to be made aware of these particular errors from this one sermon of his.

Thanks BranchinVine

I am just posting to give my views regarding some of the things that David Pawson said in his message.

I am not judging David Pawson or attacking him personally.

ARTICLE BY ANDREW MURRAY:

"God is a Spirit; and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” --- JOHN 4:24

When God created man, and breathed into him of His own spirit, man became a living soul. The soul stood midway between the spirit and the body, and had either to yield to the spirit to be lifted up to God, or to the flesh and its lusts. In the Fall, man refused to listen to the spirit, and became a slave of the body. The spirit in man became utterly darkened.

In regeneration it is this spirit that is quickened and born again from above. In the regenerate life and in the fellowship of God it is the spirit of man that has ever to yield itself to the Spirit of God. The spirit is the deepest, inward part of the human being. As we read in Ps. 51:6: "Thou desirest truth in the inward parts; and in the hidden part Thou shalt make me know wisdom”; or in Jer. 31:33: I will put My law in their inward parts.” It is of this also that Isaiah says: "With my soul have I desired Thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek Thee early” (Isa. 26:9). The soul must sink down to the depths of the hidden spirit, and call upon that to stir itself to seek God.

God is a Spirit, most holy and most glorious. He gives us the spirit with the one object of holding fellowship with Himself. Through sin that power has been darkened and well-nigh quenched. There is no way for its restoration but by presenting the soul in stillness before God for the working of His Holy Spirit in our spirit. Deeper than our thoughts and feelings, God will in our inward part, in our spirits within us, teach us to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

"The Father seeketh such to worship Him.” He Himself by His Holy Spirit will teach us this if we wait upon Him. In the quiet hour, be still before God, and yield yourself with the whole heart to believe in and to receive the gentle working of His Spirit. And breathe out such words as these:

"My soul, be thou silent unto God.”

"With my soul I have desired Thee in the night, yea, with my spirit within me I seek Thee early” (Isa. 26:9).

"On Thee, O God, do I wait” (Ps. 25:5).

----- Taken from "The Secret of Adoration” by Andrew Murray, 1914.

ARTICLE BY T. AUSTIN-SPARKS:

The Creation Formula (Genesis 2:7)

In taking up the statement as to man's constitution in Genesis 2:7, we would recall you to what has been said about the progressiveness of revelation. For here we have a precise instance of things being but in germ form in the first reference, needing the reflex of the later and fuller light. We would not say that this passage is a positive assertion, but more an implication. Later Scriptures bear out the implication. It will be noticed that we are not dealing with the account of man in Genesis 1:26, which rather describes God's intention for him than what actually is the case; that is, his place and office more than his being. Here is Genesis 2:7:

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of lives;* and man became a living soul".

*FOOTNOTE: The word here is in the plural. We do not propose to enter upon a discussion or enquiry as to the meaning of this and so add considerably to detail, but merely point this out for the present.

On the face of it, the statement appears to contradict all that we are saying, and to support the contention that man is dual or bipartite.

If we pass over to Paul's exact quotation of this passage in 1 Corinthians 15:45, we find that it is used to describe a difference between the first Adam and the last Adam. The former was made "a living soul", the latter "a life-giving spirit". This will help us. But first let us note the synthesis. There are three things:
(1) The material elements: "the dust of the ground".
(2) The formative factor: "the breath of lives".
(3) The final issue: "man became a living soul".

We need not discuss the first; most people will accept the material side of man's being. 'Adam', from adamah, means 'of the earth'. (It also includes a colour element: red earth.)

The second point brings us immediately to our present object. Here we have two sides or aspects.
(a) "The Lord God"””the One Who effects.
(b) "The breath of lives"””the means He uses.

Creation and emanation are not to be confused. When the animal part of man is in view there is nothing said which would support the idea that there is a oneness of nature between the created and the Creator. But when we are considering that part of man's being in which he is the image and likeness of God, we have a higher nature, and this is communicated, not created; the method is different. The spirit of man is not an act of creation, but rather in the nature of procreation. This breath of lives is not man's soul, but his spirit. We shall see later that this is not merely the abstract animating element which marks the difference between man as a living organism and inanimate matter, but something which, being out from God, is an organ, or faculty, as well as a function. From the general teaching of Scripture we conclude that it was the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of life, who breathed into man, and by this breathing not only made him animate, i.e. put the body-soul, physio-psychical life, into him, but formed the link with God, for ultimate Divine purposes.

When the animal part of man is in view there is nothing said which would support the idea that there is a oneness of nature between the created and the Creator. But when we are considering that part of man's being in which he is the image and likeness of God, we have a higher nature, and this is communicated, not created; the method is different. The spirit of man is not an act of creation, but rather in the nature of procreation. This breath of lives is not man's soul, but his spirit.

In Zechariah 12:1, we have the phrase "...the Lord... formeth the spirit of man within him". The word "formeth" is the Hebrew word yatsar, which means 'to mould into form'. God formed man's body out of the dust of the ground. He also formed man's spirit within him. (There must have been a 'him' there first.) Along with this must go the words of Hebrews 12:9, "The Father of our spirits". It is here that we are the offspring of God.

In Zechariah 12:1, we have the phrase "...the Lord... formeth the spirit of man within him". The word "formeth" is the Hebrew word yatsar, which means 'to mould into form'. God formed man's body out of the dust of the ground. He also formed man's spirit within him. (There must have been a 'him' there first.) Along with this must go the words of Hebrews 12:9, "The Father of our spirits". It is here that we are the offspring of God.

We must remember that the pneuma, or spirit, is vested with the powers of a definite and independent entity. Look at the following instances.
"Jesus perceiving in his spirit" (Mark 2:8).
"He sighed deeply in his spirit" (Mark 8:12).
"My spirit hath rejoiced" (Luke 1:47).
"Jesus rejoiced in spirit" (Luke 10:21).
"...worship the Father in spirit (John 4:23).
"He groaned in the spirit" (John 11:33).
"Troubled in the spirit" (John 13:21).
"Paul was pressed in the spirit" (Acts 18:5).
"Whom I serve in my spirit" (Rom 1:9).
"Serve in newness of the spirit" (Rom 7:6).
"The spirit of the man which is in him" (1 Cor 2:11).
"Absent in body, present in spirit" (1 Cor 5:3).
"That the Spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor 5:5).
"My spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful" (1 Cor 14:14).
"I will pray with the spirit" (1 Cor 14:15).
"The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" (1 Cor 14:32).
"...spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:23).

There are those who contend that spirit, or pneuma, is just the life of the soul and body, the animating factor. We are aware that 'breath', 'wind', etc., are sometimes used of the same original word as 'spirit', but so they are of 'soul'. The usage in that case is because of the invisible power and action which is represented. No one will substitute 'wind' or 'breath' for any of the above usages of 'spirit'; it would at once be meaningless and absurd.

The relationship between soul and body is one which is well beyond our power to explain. The Bible makes many definite statements on the matter, but never explains it. For instance, soul and life are often interchangeable terms, and these are repeatedly said to be in the blood. "The life is in the blood... The blood... is... the life thereof" (Lev 17:11,14). Science has not helped us at all to understand this, but, of course, the fact is irrefutable. One thing is established””that while life properties and qualities are in the blood, after a given time they cease to be there, although the blood may still be retained. But, when we come to the matter of soul and spirit, not only are two so distinctly different words used, but these are said to be separable without either perishing, and each is vested with its own responsibility, set of faculties and destiny.

At least by inference, as the marrow is deeper than the joints, the spirit is more inward than the soul (Heb 4:12). As it is easier to reach the bone through the body, or flesh, so it is easier to reach the soul through the body than it is to reach the spirit through the soul. Much soul-piercing and cleaving has to be done before the spirit is really reached and dealt with. In other words, the physical senses are an easy way to the soul, but it requires the mighty energy of the Spirit of God to reach the spirit. But note, the difference between soul and spirit is only made manifest when the Word of God is driven in by the Holy Spirit's energy and might.

But, to touch definitely on point three,””"man became a living soul". First, the animal being out of the dust; then the spiritual life by the breath of God; and then the soul is mentioned. What did man become? "A living soul". Was that all? If that were all then what of the body? But this "living soul" has a body. Is that all? No! This living soul with a body has a spirit. This phrase, "living soul", well sets forth the nature of man's soul as in that first order as midway between matter and spirit; "lower than the angels" (pure spirits), higher than the brute. The quotation in 1 Corinthians 15:45 we said would help us. It does, in two ways. "The first man Adam became a living soul". The original of the last four words is egeneto EIS psuchen zosan. The eis is interesting; it is local, and implies that the soul is the meeting place of two opposite natures, the body and the spirit. The added clauses in Paul's statement make it clear, or strengthen the conclusion, that in the first Adam the soul is the terminus of body and spirit. The statement helps us in a second way by showing that in the last Adam the spirit is the terminus, or governing factor. Thus the soul is the nexus between the higher and the lower natures, not merely the difference between physical and metaphysical; it is the ego.

But, to touch definitely on point three,””"man became a living soul". First, the animal being out of the dust; then the spiritual life by the breath of God; and then the soul is mentioned. What did man become? "A living soul". Was that all? If that were all then what of the body? But this "living soul" has a body. Is that all? No! This living soul with a body has a spirit. This phrase, "living soul", well sets forth the nature of man's soul as in that first order as midway between matter and spirit; "lower than the angels" (pure spirits), higher than the brute. The quotation in 1 Corinthians 15:45 we said would help us. It does, in two ways. "The first man Adam became a living soul". The original of the last four words is egeneto EIS psuchen zosan. The eis is interesting; it is local, and implies that the soul is the meeting place of two opposite natures, the body and the spirit. The added clauses in Paul's statement make it clear, or strengthen the conclusion, that in the first Adam the soul is the terminus of body and spirit. The statement helps us in a second way by showing that in the last Adam the spirit is the terminus, or governing factor. Thus the soul is the nexus between the higher and the lower natures, not merely the difference between physical and metaphysical; it is the ego.

Nothing that is said in this book is intended to infer that soul, as such, is a wrong thing, i.e. that it is wrong for man to have a soul, and that therefore it has to be destroyed. What we are saying is that the soul of man has become poisoned with a self-directive interest, and has become allied with the powers which are opposed to God. This is not known, nor imagined, to be so until a real awakening has taken place in the spirit. It is therefore wrong to live wholly or pre-eminently on the soul side of our being””now. The truly spiritual people will find their chief enemy in their own souls, and God finds His chief enemy in the soul of man. When the spirit is renewed, and Christ dwells and reigns within””in other words, when we are "filled with the Spirit"””then the soul can come to serve the Lord as a handmaiden of the spirit to real but governed usefulness.

So man awoke””so to speak””"a living soul". He came to a threefold consciousness; a world””or sense””consciousness through his psycho-physical body; a self-consciousness in his soul; and a God-consciousness by his””what? Does man arrive at the knowledge of God as a Person, a living Person, by his reason, feeling and volition? The Word of God denies this, and, in the matter of living union with God as an experience, man's history denies it. "Canst thou by searching find out God?" (Job 11:7). Philosophy gives a positive answer, inasmuch as it is the most deadly thing to faith; and philosophy is an intense activity of the soul, mainly on its reasoning side. Multitudes have been lost to a true and vital Christian experience through taking up philosophy as a subject. When God had breathed into the already fashioned man, something more than body and soul was there, and it was this that determined everything in relation to God's purpose through man. The soul was the meeting place of body and spirit. Let the soul surrender to the body and all is lost. Let it surrender to the spirit and all is well.

To sum up. Man became a living soul, having a body and a spirit. By asserting himself””the ego””in favour of the body and not of the spirit, he became a sinful soul. It is what he is, not just what is in him.

He has got to be saved from himself. This is accomplished in two ways. Christ's death in its representative nature is a potent thing to be entered into by the "natural" man, so that, by a crisis and a process, the power of Christ's death is wrought and established in the soul-consciousness of man. He becomes aware that he is forbidden to live and move on the basis of the self””ego””life. On the other hand, the resurrection of Christ is also a mighty power in man's spirit, and by its introduction by the Holy Spirit into man's inner being, he is made a spiritual man, as over against a merely natural. His position henceforth is most perfectly stated by the Apostle Paul thus:

"I (the natural man) have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that (life) which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, (the faith) which is in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself up for (in place of) me"(Gal 2:20).

This is what Christ meant when in the undeveloped truth He said: "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).

The soul was the meeting place of body and spirit. Let the soul surrender to the body and all is lost. Let it surrender to the spirit and all is well.

To sum up. Man became a living soul, having a body and a spirit. By asserting himself””the ego””in favour of the body and not of the spirit, he became a sinful soul. It is what he is, not just what is in him.

He has got to be saved from himself. This is accomplished in two ways. Christ's death in its representative nature is a potent thing to be entered into by the "natural" man, so that, by a crisis and a process, the power of Christ's death is wrought and established in the soul-consciousness of man. He becomes aware that he is forbidden to live and move on the basis of the self””ego””life. On the other hand, the resurrection of Christ is also a mighty power in man's spirit, and by its introduction by the Holy Spirit into man's inner being, he is made a spiritual man, as over against a merely natural. His position henceforth is most perfectly stated by the Apostle Paul thus:

"I (the natural man) have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that (life) which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, (the faith) which is in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself up for (in place of) me"(Gal 2:20).

This is what Christ meant when in the undeveloped truth He said: "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).

----- Taken from "what is Man” by T. Austin-Sparks

http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/what_is_man.html

Wanted to thank you again for sharing these messages, there are more on the subject, if I’m not mistaken - tho in any case these sermons are a sorely needed treatment for the body of believers and like you, these sermons were as a cup of cool water to me and blessed me greatly 🙏🏻

With so much pretense and artifice in the modern world, and all it’s distracting influences, it’s very refreshing to get back to the foundation of our faith, being clear minded as to what is eternal vs external and brother Pawson does us all a solid by parsing this out, drawing clean lines of demarcation. As observed by responses in this thread, this was not a popular or easy thing to address but, I for one am grateful for both the intent and courage required to meet this head on as well as the patience to sort through it and faithfully appeal to the listeners 😇