The rapture of the church is not in early Christian literature and go against the creeds

It is my birthday today
The word rapture is a 16th century word. It is Latin it is not the English of rapimiure. This I found shocking.

The early church didn't know this word , the apostles did not know this word , why as Christians should we be even using this word.

You think a secret coming to his church and then a third coming

This is the apostles creed it does not mention it

Do you believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

Nicene creed

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father.

God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.

Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, became human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.

By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.

He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the uncreate and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, the prophets, and the Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.

We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, in the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life

No rapture , not a mention of it in any of the creeds of the Christian faith

Not mentioned in the didiache
Which is an early Christian writing
Chapter 16. Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord. Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him." Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

Creed of chaceldone
Following, then, the holy Fathers, we all unanimously teach that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us One and the same Son, the Self-same Perfect in Godhead, the Self-same Perfect in Manhood; truly God and truly Man; the Self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the Self-same co-essential with us according to the Manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the Self-same, for us and for our salvation (born) of Mary the Virgin Theotokos as to the Manhood; One and the Same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten; acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis; not as though He was parted or divided into Two Persons, but One and the Self-same Son and Only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself hath taught us, and as the Symbol of the Fathers hath handed down to us.

Maybe the early church fathers

Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (Didache - Chapter 16)

Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;" (First Apology of Justin, Chapter 110)

Irenaeus (AD 140-202) "he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." (Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1)

Tertullian (AD 150-220) "that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, Revelation xviii and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 25)

Hippolytus (AD 160-240) "That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains," (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

Cyprian (AD 200-258) "For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle ... "The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service…" Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times," (Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2)
Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. (Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722)

Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church." (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3)

None of the early church , apostles or Paul knew what the rapture was , they would look at you blindly in ignorance , what is that as one they didn't speak Latin
To me it is dangerous because it becomes hidden knowledge

"None of the early church , apostles or Paul knew what the rapture was..."

OF COURSE NOT!

BECAUSE IT IS ONE OF THOSE, "TRADITIONS OF MEN" being taught as a doctrine of the Bible by certain men. From 1909 when the CI Scofield reference Bible was published it gained notoriety and has become the view of many in numerous churches.

It's sort of like "Darwinian Evolution" being taught in the government schools today as science, when prior to The Scopes Monkey Trial of 1925 most would've agreed with the "Anti-Evolution League" of that day who fought to defend the TRUTH of "Creation" by the One True God the Creator of all things.

We ought not to marvel at these things. Truth and error have been at war even prior to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden.

I got a question: since the early writers did not use the word rapture to describe the second coming of Christ, will you also vehemently deny using the word Trinity because the early writers did not use that word (at least to my knowledge they didn't - this is why Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in it).

As I see it it may be a modern term coined to describe an event like the word Trinity is used to describe the godhead.

My thoughts/question.

Sandra

Brothers & Sisters,

Please allow me to preface my comments: I earned enough credits to minor in theology at a major Catholic university. There were plenty of opportunities to draw closer to the LORD but I resisted. I was worldly in my intellectual pursuits while turning away from a genuine spiritual journey to seek the LORD. So with that in mind I hope we all appreciate the nature of our walk with Jesus in prayer and study of His Word. The trinity as theological construct is meant to bring clarity to our understanding of the nature of God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit as He is revealed in His Word. As Paul & the prophets asked "who has known the mind of the Lord?" so do I ask.

As for rapture, word study is important. I agree that there is a newer tradition of thinking about 1 Thess 4:17 "caught up" which appeals to members of the modern church and, consequently, there is a great deal of literature about it in these last days. Yet, the Lord asks us to be awake and ready in any season and not in the mode of directing our attention away from the gospel.

Taking these questions to the LORD in prayer is my primary approach. Reading opinions of others is always secondary.

Dominic

Really good post!

As one poster asked if it was essentially fair to question the notion of the rapture because it isn't found in any texts of the early church and neither is the Trinity..........but imo those words do not have to be there to prove the principle. Meaning, do we need the word 'Trinity' to show that the early church taught it? No, just realize that they taught the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all distinct Persons who make up One God.

Yet the rapture it seemingly isn't taught by the early church but mentioned in Thess. Why was it not mentioned in the early church? Who knows.

I , for one, pushed away from 'end times' stuff because I found alot of Christians using raptuer status as a reason to run and hide and yet a Christian should do the opposite.

John

The trinity was a phrase devised by Tertullian but the concept of the trinity is in the new testament,
It is in the creeds of the early church

Here is his quote
"We worship unity in trinity, and trinity in unity; neither confounding the person nor dividing the substance." - Tertullia

I debate with Muslims regarding this subject.
All you have to define that jesus is God and the father is God and the holy spirit is God

Holy spirit is God
Acts 5
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? note

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God

Jesus is God
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God

Father as God
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ

It is so easy to see define that jesus is the Messiah (Christ) and when you have the term lord which κύριος which is the same as the word Yahweh in the old testament

Even in the greek new testament manuscripts there is something called the nomina sacra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomina_sacra?wprov=sfla1

So when ever they used the term jesus God or holy spirit
There is a special symbol that would put over the greek text

The early church used the greek term θεός to define God the father .
With the many polytheism and world of the greeks and the Olympians God on mount Olympus
They used a specific term to define themselves differently from then

Then with the monotheism of defining that jesus is God and the father is God is throughout the creeds in the new testament

Creeds
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_creeds?wprov=sfla1

You have things like the son of man sayings that quotes from the book of Daniel and the I am sayings by jesus .
The new testament is littered with terms to either his deity and even jesus baptism where you have all the trinity present

Even when jesus says I am the good Shepard refering to Psalm 23 when he says the lord is my shepherd

The new testament is brimming with references to the trinity

It is not the same with the pre trib rapture

The early church struggled with different words for God when defining jesus as God and the holy spirit as God and the father with God

I could write a book on this subject

The trinity is something that should be teached as it is all through the creeds

Apostles creed
Do you believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

Up front, I am a post-trib believer. I also don't believe that the pre-trib teaching was any part of Jesus' or the early church's teachings, or the earlier Hebrew prophets for that matter. Many say this issue of the timing of the rapture should be left alone, because it brings controversy and division whenever it is breached. I no longer believe that either. I understand the sentiment behind that type of thinking, but it is growing increasingly critical for the church to rightly determine whether it will be here for the duration of this age or not. It needs not be avoided any longer. It needs to be addressed head on, no matter the debate it causes.

What got me thinking again about this issue again was my recent heart surgery. It was a deep and serious operation during which a heart and lung machine kept me here while the bypass repairs were being done. I'm doing fine now after this procedure. But say my heart surgeon and his assistant were Christians and I was not and a pre-trib rapture occurred during the over four hours of surgery I underwent. I would have been left high and dry to perish because, as the common pre-trib refrain goes, I had been stubborn and hadn't taken advantage of the opportunity to trust Christ and leave it all behind before things get really bad. Would that really be the fate the Lord consigned me to if a pre-trib rapture had occurred during my surgery? How many other people were undergoing surgery of some type at this same time or since then, if not Christians, would have perished because their doctors and surgeons were Christians and just happened to get raptured and vanished during this critical time? Is this scenario which accompanies the pre-trib teaching really the way it will play out for thousands end even millions of people supposedly "left behind?"

What of thousands who are supposed to be on airliners who will perish because the pilots were Christians and are now suddenly gone even as the once piloted plane now goes out of control and plummets to earth? What of non believers riding in taxis or other vehicles who will be left to the whim of uncontrollable circumstances as their vehicles are now out of control because of the drivers who have been snatched away? What of people riding trains or riding in an ambulance to a hospital and the driver vanishes suddenly in a rapture? The possibilities go on and on. How many will perish during heart surgery or the likes when this pre-trib rapture occurs? Millions and millions riding in planes and cars will crash to earth or into the side of buildings with no chance to repent. This will be on of the Lord's glorious works? I feel as if I speak as a fool even rehashing the long proposed scenario.

It needs to be avoided no longer even if it brings division. It has to be looked at for what it is. The church needs to get its vision and calling sure before its eyes. Where does it say a believer will lose any reward if they perish during the final tribulation? Is God going to snatch His church away and kill millions and millions while doing so? Besides placing faith in Christ and being taught sound doctrine, nothing is more vital today than getting this issue correct which hasn't happened so far. It would bring spiritual health and clear vision to the church as never before.

"...this view clearly opposes the "pre-tribulation" rapture mentality, a mentality that sees the Church as being removed before the tribulation. Nothing, in our opinion, has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship, maturity and of being the Church that can stand in the Last Days and overcome tribulation, than the misguided confidence that they will not have to face it!" (Art Katz)

Hey David- glad to hear you are doing well post surgery.

Won’t the same thing happen regardless of which rapture point you believe? Planes will still be flying, cars will be driven, surgeries will be done.

I guess I am not quite sure what you are saying but I may be missing a piece of the puzzle.

Hi Docs
I believe in the Rapture of the Church.
TMK has made a very good point:that this would be true of a rapture or a ressurection,post or pre.
Let me make another point
The idea that the rapture is instantaneous is totally incorrect ,it comes from reading the passage incorrectly and from not understanding that their is a process involved in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

The fact that the rapture or ressurection is not instantaneous means that nobody dies when the "Christian Pilots are taken" and planes dont fall out of the sky.
So going back to TMK's point no matter whether you are pre or post nobody dies or is injured from the rapture .

Your Qoute?
"What of thousands who are supposed to be on airliners who will perish because the pilots were Christians and are now suddenly gone even as the once piloted plane now goes out of control and plummets to earth? What of non believers riding in taxis or other vehicles who will be left to the whim of uncontrollable circumstances as their vehicles are now out of control because of the drivers who have been snatched away? What of people riding trains or riding in an ambulance to a hospital and the driver vanishes suddenly in a rapture?"

1595 F. Sabie Fissher-mans Tale sig. Cv, Priams famous towne, Nere bought so deare the rapture of faire Hellen.
1600 T. Dekker Old Fortunatus sig. H4v, That feare, Which her late violent rapture cast vpon her.
1612 Life & Death Lewis Gaufredy sig. C1, Great bitternes and affliction, as hers was after the rapture of her childe.
?1615 G. Chapman tr. Homer Odysses (new ed.) xx. 485 My women servants dragg'd about my house To lust and rapture
1632 G. Sandys tr. Ovid Metamorphosis (new ed.) v. 171 Lo, I the man, that will vpon thy life Reuenge, said he, the rapture of my wife.

Other uses of the word rapture

Rapture etymology
rapture (n.)
c. 1600, "act of carrying off" as prey or plunder, from rapt + -ure, or else from French rapture, from Medieval Latin raptura "seizure, rape, kidnapping," from Latin raptus "a carrying off, abduction, snatching away; rape" (see rapt). The earliest attested use in English is with women as objects and in 17c. it sometimes meant rape (v.), which word is a cognate of this one.

1 Thess 4 in Latin
deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

The word rapture is not in 1 Thess 4 it is a Latin word from tthe 16th century

Note it is not a English word rapture it is a Latin word

In 1 Thess 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. note

In 1 Thess 4 it says we will meet the lord in the air. ἀέρα
Is the greek and it says the lord will descend in the passage it does not say the timing and you cannot determine that this happens at the beginning of the tribulation.

Hi Deltadom,
The problem for the Post Trib believer is that they will have to have a "soft" non global tribulation for 1 Thess 4 to occur after the tribulation.
I just dont see the great tribulation being a soft time but rather the opposite its the worst time in civilization.
Jesus makes it clear that Judgement comes when everything is relatively normal,they did eat and drink,give in Marriage,plant ,sow ,build etc then comes the judgement.
You can determine that the Lot and Noah examples are not after the Great Tribulation but before.
your qoute:
In 1 Thess 4 it says we will meet the lord in the air. ἀέρα
Is the greek and it says the lord will descend in the passage it does not say the timing and you cannot determine that this happens at the beginning of the tribulation,

urs staff

Luke 17

30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 "In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

On that day, in that night it says... two men... and two women...taken...left...something extraordinary will happen.

What is that day or night, second coming? Some people are raptured?

Re:\tReply To This Post |
Hi Deltadom,
The problem for the Post Trib believer is that they will have to have a "soft" non global tribulation for 1 Thess 4 to occur after the tribulation.
I just dont see the great tribulation being a soft time but rather the opposite its the worst time in civilization.
Jesus makes it clear that Judgement comes when everything is relatively normal,they did eat and drink,give in Marriage,plant ,sow ,build etc then comes the judgement.
You can determine that the Lot and Noah examples are not after the Great Tribulation but before.
your qoute:
In 1 Thess 4 it says we will meet the lord in the air. ἀέρα
Is the greek and it says the lord will descend in the passage it does not say the timing and you cannot determine that this happens at the beginning of the tribulation,

urs staff

”“------------+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Have you looked up the word harpizo

1th.4.17 ] επειτα [THEN] ημεις [WE] οι [THE] ζωντες [LIVING] οι [WHO] περιλειπομενοι [REMAIN,] αμα [TOGETHER] συν [WITH] αυτοις [THEM] αρπαγησομεθα [SHALL BE CAUGHT AWAY] εν [IN "THE"] νεφελαις [CLOUDS] εις [FOR "THE"] απαντησιν [MEETING] του [OF THE] κυριου [LORD] εις [IN "THE"] αερα [AIR;] και [AND] ουτως [THUS] παντοτε [ALWAYS] συν [WITH "THE"] κυριω [LORD] εσομεθα [WE SHALL BE.]

726 αρπαζω occurs 13 times in the NT. occurs 30 times in the OT. from a derivative of (138) harpazo 1:472,80 har-pad'-zo Verb from a derivative of (138) ; to seize (in various applications) :--catch (away, up) , pluck, pull, take (by force) . to seize, carry off by force to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly to snatch out or away

αρπαζω occurs 30 times in the OT. ge.37.33 ; le.6.4 ; le.19.13 ; de.28.31 ; 2sa.23.21 ; job.20.19 ; job.24.2 ; job.24.9 ; job.24.19 ; ps.7.2 ; ps.10.9 ; ps.10.9 ; ps.22.13 ; ps.50.22 ; ps.104.21 ; is.10.2 ; eze.18.7 ; eze.18.12 ; eze.18.16 ; eze.18.18 ; eze.19.3 ; eze.19.6 ; eze.22.25 ; eze.22.27 ; ho.5.14 ; am.1.11 ; am.3.4 ; mic.3.2 ; mic.5.8 ; na.2.12

If you look up all these references to harpizo there are no references to noah .

The problem is that the references in the old testament do not match up to what people say of people like Enoch and Elijah

The other problem is where do we go as the marriage supper of the lamb is at the end of the tribulation

There are verses such as Matt 24 where is says that as the lightning comes from the east unto the west so shall the son of man come and in rev 1:7 where every eye shall see him this does not give any room for a secret rapture

Hi Deltadom,
To be clear here are you saying Jesus's Noah and Lot prophesies are not the same as 1 Thess 4 and they do not happen at the same time and that they are different altogether?
staff

No what I am saying is that when you look up the Greek word harpizo which is the Latin for the word raptuma it is not in the greek septugient in those stories

My problem is there are many verses that contradict the pre trib rapture or resserection

When it says they were taken the context of the passage is that they were taken for judgement

The big problem is with the pre trib theory is that nowhere in 1 Thess 4 does it give a timing but the lord descends

It doesn't say we will meet the lord in the air we will go to heaven and have the marriage supper of the lamb for seven years

The problem is the only verse that mentions the marriage of the supper of the lamb is at the end of the tribulation at the second coming

Rev 19
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (Compare)

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

It says the air and not heavens

Acts 3
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: (Compare)

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Matt 24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Revelation 1
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These verses go against the pre trib rapture

There are more such as this.
2 Thess 1
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, note

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: note

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

There are so many other verses that go against it

Hi Deltadom,
So what are you saying about these verses are they the same event or not?

My post:
To be clear here are you saying Jesus's Noah and Lot prophesies are not the same as 1 Thess 4 and they do not happen at the same time and that they are different altogether?
staff

Hi Deltadom,
Just a reply to this section of your post.The rapture is not secret.The only reason poeple think the rapture is secret is because they think its not visible because its instantaneous.
So whoever thinks the rapture is secret is incorrect ,its the opposite everybody sees it because its not instantaneous,
urs staff

your qoute:
There are verses such as Matt 24 where is says that as the lightning comes from the east unto the west so shall the son of man come and in rev 1:7 where every eye shall see him this does not give any room for a secret rapture

The thing it is three comings
It is once for the church and then for everything else
The thing is even from 1 Thess 4 which I can refer to the early church fathers commentary on this passage saying it is to do with the end time resserection
The concept was not there

Jesus is not coming three times if he does in Matt 24 that would make him coming for the church not jesus as Matt 24 says if he is in the secret chamber believe it not or believe he is the desert believe it not
So if you read Matt 24:26-27 correctly
He is only coming twice not three times not unless the rapture is the antichrist according to verse 23-24

Matt 24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Nowhere in scripture does he say he is coming for his church and then the second coming as this would go against that and make the rapture antichrist return

The timing of the only rapture at the second coming of Christ is an issue so clearly and simply revealed in the Word it's like tying your shoe or taking a breath of air. It's complicated nor was it meant to be. Only since the 1830s with the advent of pre-trib Darbyism did the issue become controversial and muddy.

A tribulation unlike any other before or after will occur at the end of the age (Jer 30:7; Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:22; Rev 7:14).

29 Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It's profoundly sime and was meant to be. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, there will be celestial phenomena that will occur then Christ will come again with power and great glory.The angels will sound the last trumpet and we will be gathered to him. Period. Simple. No more debate. It's simple and easy to understand and it's by the Lord's graciousness he made it basic 101 clear. The simplicity seems to stir people many times to try and complicate the issue. Thank the good Lord he made it so simple and easy to understand.

Hi Docs,
Let me ask you the same question that Delta didnt answer

Are Jesus's Prophesy of Noah and Lot the same event as 1 Thess 4:16 the ?

your qouted scripture:
29 Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

I appreciate the diverse views being shared here concerning the 'rapture'. It is an interesting subject for sure and I don't want it to be something to cause strife and division amongst the flock. So I thought I would give my take on it here. If we look at Revelation 19 we find it right after the fall of Babylon.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Remember the parable of the 10 virgins. This is that event.

So the church (Bride) is taken to heaven to celebrate the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. It does not say how long it lasts whether it is a day, days, weeks or even a month. But after this intimate time celebrating the marriage supper, Christ along with the Church following Him on white horses descends to Earth to reclaim Earth for God:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

And so the rapture precedes the Second Coming but not by a huge amount of time. While they aren't the same event, the amount of time separating them when compared to the 2000 years or so since Christ's first coming is just a blip.

Again, I don't want to be dogmatic about this. If you disagree, I am not offended. And since nobody knows when the fall of Babylon occurs, I am not 'date setting' here.

-Daniel

It really doesn't matter how we may ask about I Thess 4:16 and how it lines up with other scriptures etc. or how many try to jimmy things around and question whether this really means this or that. The Scriptures, spoken by Christ Himself SIMPLY and CLEARLY state that Christ will come again and the rapture will occur after the tribulation of those days. What does after the tribulation of those days mean? I'm willing to grant and accept that that it means after the tribulation of those days. There is no need to stir any conjectural pots or add to what is there or speculate as to sequence. Scripture provides an answer as simple as tying one's shoes. Thank the Lord He intended it that way.

Hi Docs
So are you saying that you cant answer the question.Is it the same or not?
If its so simple why cant you answer the question?
Is Jesus Prophesy about Noah and Lot the same as 1 Thess 4:16?
Surely if its that simple and straightforward and obvious and is easy as tying your shoes you could answer that question?dont you think
urs staff

My earlier post :
Hi Docs,
Let me ask you the same question that Delta didnt answer

Are Jesus's Prophesy of Noah and Lot the same event as 1 Thess 4:16 ?

Hi Docs
So are you saying that you cant answer the question.Is it the same or not?
If its so simple why cant you answer the question?
Is Jesus Prophesy about Noah and Lot the same as 1 Thess 4:16?
Surely if its that simple and straightforward and obvious and is easy as tying your shoes you could answer that question?dont you think
urs staff

My earlier post :
Hi Docs,
Let me ask you the same question that Delta didnt answer

Are Jesus's Prophesy of Noah and Lot the same event as 1 Thess 4:16 ?

This is not the same , if you are asking about another was taken and another left .

In the examples of noah and lot there is does not use the same Greek word harpizo in the greek septugient and therefore does not link up with 1 Thess 4

The problem is in the case of noah and lot those that were taken died in god's judgement, they either got destroyed by flood or by fire and brimstone.

They did not get harpizo out and it is not a good anology with the so called pre trib rapture

But even if you look at 1 Thess 4 it does not describe the pre tribulation rapture, it describes the resserection at the second coming , the corresponding passage in 1 cor 15 , the whole passage talks about the resserection.

In early commentaries on 1 Thess 4 that is what they described it as

Sorry I was meaning to answer it

I just dealt with one question at a time

What does AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days mean? Does it mean after the tribulation of those days or does it mean something else?

Hi Docs
Im asking a simple easy question here to be fair ,Is Jesus Prophesies of Noah and Lot the same as 1 Thess 4:16?
Put another way do these two things happen at the same time??
Urs staff

2 Peter and Jude also have verses about the second coming. I was reading the post by TrueWitness and then looked at what Jude says:

Jude 1:14-15 - [14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, [15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

So the text says "the Lord cometh". I believe this is the second coming? But it also says he comes with ten thousand of his saints. Where did those saints come from? Anybody can reconcile this with Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4?

I hold to post trib. loosely btw.

Actually nevermind to the verse in Jude that's referring to angels I think.

Cross references -

Matthew 25:31 - ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Hebrews 12:22 - But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Good references platy and every reference refers to jesus returning with his angels

The concept of 3 comings is not in the scripture

As it is like saying that there are 2 genesis accounts when there is only one and creating a false dichotomy

This is what has happened with the resserection/ rapture and second coming they split the two when it is just one event

Paul or any of those who knew Paul didn't know about it and John Nelson Darby suddenly had a revelation of it which wasn't from scripture
Anyone who is into the pre trib rapture needs to do a study as his translation outrights denies the deity of jesus

It is not something that is clear in the text it does not say in the bible

2 hesitations 1:2 the rapture happens before the tribulation

What's assumed from the 1 Thessalonians 4 passage is that once jesus descends and you will meet him in the clouds is the marriage supper of the lamb but it says this nowhere in the actual passage
The actual passage does not say that jesus ascends either it just says that he descends
Paul could have used the word heaven rather than the word air as there are different greek words

1 Thess 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. note

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Nowhere does it say the marriage supper of the lamb is seven years and the only reference is in revelation

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

This verse is interesting

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God

This is at armgaddon so there is no way that the marriage supper of the lamb can happen at the rapture as it is fairly gruesome

Whenever you see jesus returning in scripture such as the wheat and the tares or where it talks when the son of man comes and all his angels with him

The bible says the opposite

They tend to point out differences but not refer to the text

To me the real nail on the head is

Hi Deltadom
I dont agree at all the rapture or the coming of Christ is not in the scripture regardless of John Darby views or not.The scripture has to be argued with Scripture not with what John Darby taught or thought .Whether we call the coming of Christ the word "rapture" or something else is not important.Paul of course did mention the coming of Christ and knew all about it

I asked you a simple (yes or no) question and you cant answer it and neither can Docs.Is Jesus Prophesy about Noah and Lot the same event as 1 Thess 4:16???
urs staff

Your qoute:
Paul or any of those who knew Paul didn't know about it and John Nelson Darby suddenly had a revelation of it which wasn't from scripture

Dominic, here is another pro rapture verse:

Colossians 3:4 - When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

John Gill's commentary on the above verse:

"then shall ye also appear with him in glory:

the dead bodies of the saints will then be raised and united to their souls, which he will bring with him, when he appears; and living saints shall be changed, and be caught up together with the raised ones, into the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so they all shall be with him together, wherever he is, whether in the air, or on earth, or in heaven, and while he is in either; and shall be for ever with him, enjoy communion with him, be made like unto him, and behold his glory: yea, they shall "appear in glory" too; with a glory on their bodies, which will be raised in glory like unto the glorious body of Christ; and on their souls, being in perfect holiness, having on the wedding garment, or robe of Christ's righteousness, being clothed upon with their house from heaven, and appearing in the shining robes of immortality, incorruption, and glory; having the glory of God upon them in soul and body, and such a glory revealed in them, as the sufferings of this present life, and all the enjoyments of it, are not to be compared with. All which furnish out strong arguments and reasons, enforcing the above exhortations to seek for, and set the affections on things in heaven, and not on earth. {y} Zohar in Gen. fol. 2. 3.­"

John Gill I believe was a Puritan so he lived before the 1800's.

But you are asking a gotcha question about I Thess 4:16, already settled in your own mind. If I answer the obvious way this scripture was intended, then you get to say, see, you have to be wrong.

A pre-tribulation rapture and than another post-tribulatiom rapture seven or three and a half years later at the end of the tribulation is something the Hebrew prophets, Jesus, nor the apostles never knew of nor did they ever advocate any such scenario. Scripture does the work for us. God intended it that way. After the tribulation of those days, Jesus will come again and the dead and living will be raptured (Matt 24:29-31). Simple. Period. As easy to understand as tying one's shoes. It's God's divine favor He made it as easy to understand for us as it is. Unless after the tribulation of those days means something besides after the tribulation of those days.

docs,

So when does the Marriage Supper of the Lamb occur according to you? Surely the Bride (entire church) will be there. I just showed that it happens in Revelation 19 before Christ mounts His white horse and descends to Earth to reclaim it (the Second Coming).

-Daniel

doc
You believe that you have the correct answers while the rest of us are all still learning.
Why does it bother you when we all get it "wrong"?

Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
You have just gone through some difficult times. Find rest and peace in Christ.
Just some thoughts.

I appreciate your thoughts deogloria, but your presumptions about me and what I recently went through are just that. Over the top presumptuous and wrong. Judging by the flesh. Meanwhile, if I said anything in the wrong spirit or attitude, I will pay attention to myself.

I'm just convinced, that by God's divine favor, the answer is right there in scripture for us in black and white in an easily and understandable manner to comprehend. The fact that the second coming of God's son has become such an issue of strife and contention must be a major source of grief to the Lord's heart when it was meant to be a such a source of unity for God's people. The strife and division only came with the advent of Darbyism. Many people don't know that the record shows Darby had a undistinguished record of excommunicating from his fellowship those who didn't agree with him. That same spirit of division seems to still follow this issue today. And it need not be so when scripture is so simply clear.

AFTER THE TRIBULAION of those days was a major part of Jesus responding to the question, "What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" Excuse my repetition, but it seems very simple to take Jesus at His word and let scripture settle the issue.

In your opinion depogloria, what does after the tribulation of those days mean?

Hi Docs
You wont answer because you know that it blows your arguement out of the water.
The fact that you know its a gothca question shows the weakness of your arguement.If your view was strong you would answer the question
So again Docs and Delta
Are the Prophesies by Jesus regarding Noah and Lot days the same as 1 Thess 4:16 ??Yes or no
Surely considering the subject is so "simple and straightforward " you could answer this ?
yours staff

But you are asking a gotcha question about I Thess 4:16, already settled in your own mind. If I answer the obvious way this scripture was intended, then you get to say, see, you have to be wrong.

docs
we are not quite on the same page.
I don't think the Bible requires us to have unity about the second coming of Christ.
What is biblical unity and when should we "avoid foolish controversies" would be an interesting new topic.

"what does after the tribulation of those days mean?..."
I don't want to study it in details and I don't think my opinion about it would matter much, it could even lead to more controversies.

Shalom

Markus

staff wrote:
Let me ask you the same question that Delta didnt answer

Are Jesus's Prophesy of Noah and Lot the same event as 1 Thess 4:16 the ?

Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood THEY were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, UNTIL THE DAY THAT NOAH ENTERED INTO THE ARK,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took THEM all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

And for Lot, Luke 17:28-37
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.

Jesus spoke of future judgment coming suddenly as in the days of Noah and Lord and I believe that it will be according to His word.

God bless!!
Lisa

Colossians 3
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. note

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

The context of this passage is to do with resserection

Do you want me to look up the context of John gill as I could read alot of his books on this subject

I believe the resserection and the second coming are the same thing

_-----------------------

Staff , why do we have to minute quandary when you have verses that directly contradict the rapture

Why is I am ignored and then try to get on a red herring as linking the verses to lot and noah

Matt 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

You need to read this in the light of genesis as only noah and his family were saved

When it says they were taken , they were taken for judgement they died in both cases

Genesis 7
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. note

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark

So everyone who was taken died

Genesis 19
22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. note

23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. note

24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

So in the life of lot those that were taken were destroyed

These two biblical historical events have nothing to do with 1 Thess 4

I cry as people who believe in the pre trib rapture miss the major things and focus on the minors

As deal with all the verses that directly contradict and go against the pre trib rapture

God bless

Dom.

Ps note there is no references to harpizo to the biblical accounts of noah and lot
αρπαζω occurs 30 times in the OT. ge.37.33 ; le.6.4 ; le.19.13 ; de.28.31 ; 2sa.23.21 ; job.20.19 ; job.24.2 ; job.24.9 ; job.24.19 ; ps.7.2 ; ps.10.9 ; ps.10.9 ; ps.22.13 ; ps.50.22 ; ps.104.21 ; is.10.2 ; eze.18.7 ; eze.18.12 ; size.18.16 ; eze.18.18 ; eze.19.3 ; eze.19.6 ; eze.22.25 ; eze.22.27 ; ho.5.14 ; am.1.11 ; am.3.4 ; mic.3.2 ; mic.5.8 ; na.2.12

Hi Delta,
You claim to know about the rapture or lack of rapture but you refuse to answer a simple question
Are the Prophesies of Jesus regarding the days of Noah and Lot the same event as 1 Thess 4:16?Yes or no
Stop hiding and answer are the simple question.
urs staff

Staff , why do we have to minute quandary when you have verses that directly contradict the rapture

/I don't think the Bible requires us to have unity about the second coming of Christ./

It may not require it, but it sure couldn't hurt things at this point in my opinion.

/What is biblical unity and when should we 'avoid foolish controversies" would be an interesting new topic./

I don't think the timing of the second coming is a foolish controversy to be avoided. But eschatology has long been the problem child black sheep in the church coupled with the belief that any investigation of it is really not worth the effort.

/"what does after the tribulation of those days mean?..." I don't want to study it in details and I don't think my opinion about it would matter much, it could even lead to more controversies./

I know this may sound out of line and maybe even rude, but what type of detailed study is needed to decipher the meaning of the words "after the tribulation of those days?" What is the plain common sense meaning of such a phrase? This highlights what I meant when I said that the utter simplicity of Christ's answer here seems to stumble many for some reason. Maybe not you but many. The clarity from Christ's own mouth is a gift, but beginning really with Darby, the issue has been muddied to make room for doctrines that never appeared in church history before the 1830s. If Christ taught He would come after the tribulation of those days then why not just leave it there where Christ left it? Plain, precise, simple, and clear.

Thanks for your replies. Blessings.

Hi Lisa,
Can I understand from your post that you think that they are the same event?I believe that the most likely understanding is that they are the same event.

Delta or Docs dont know if they are the same event or not?

I also agree with your analysis of the verses that the Judgement comes suddenly as in the days of Noah and Lot describe.Further to that I would add that the Judgement was a complete Judgement,
urs staff

/ Surely considering the subject to be so "simple and straight forward" you could answer this?/

Not meaning to be acting superior although it will probably be taken that way, if you factor in Matthew 24:29, the answer is right there in front of you and clear.

Peace.

Hello,

The word rapture is not really mentioned in the scriptures but the apostle Paul clearly explains how the dead will be raised first when our Lord Jesus comes and they will first go up and meet him and then those that are alive. Noah's ark and Lot's escape from Sodom is a foreshadow of what is to come- the coming wrath of God and how we will be caught up in heaven to meet Jesus when He comes. This is our blessed hope.

The believers of Jesus Christ is not to depend on creeds but is to depend on the Word that came to us in flesh Jesus Christ (see John 1:14). The Lord Jesus said that He will soon come and we must repent and bear fruit. This means if you have two jackets give to the one in need. If you see someone hungry, feed him. (See Luke 3:7-14) Lay down your life for others how Christ Jesus laid down His life for us.

What matters the most is not whether He will take us in the air pre tribulation or post tribulation but what matters the most is whether we are ready by bearing fruits or not. Bearing fruit means living in faith in Jesus Christ and abiding in His love and trusting in His work.
I hope this encourages you to love the Lord Jesus more and to love one another.
Shalom,
Robert

I posted that the word rapture is a 16th century Latin word for rape
So when we are talking about the rapture of the church we are literally talking about the rape of the church

The reason this doctrine is so dangerous it is like the health and wealth doctrine it promises a rescue when the bible never promises one

The early church knew they would face the antichrist

I am waiting for the penny to drop

This is some quotes from the early church

Irenaeus (AD 140-202) "he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." (Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1)

Tertullian (AD 150-220) "that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, Revelation xviii and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 25)

Hippolytus (AD 160-240) "That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains," (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

Cyprian (AD 200-258) "For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle ... "The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service…" Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times," (Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2)
Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. (Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722)

Why would a church born in persecution want to be free from it . As Tertullian said
The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church

2 Corinthians 11:25
Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea,

Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death

Why would someone who says this want to escape , he suffered for the gospel and Paul did not know about the pre trib rapture theology, he would regard it as heresy

Jesus said
Matt 24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The reason this verse puts the whole pre trib issue to rest is that this would make the rapture of the church

Verse 26 that if you say that jesus is in the chamber or in the desert believe it not

You could almost say the same wherefore they shall say unto to you that he is coming in a secret coming to church believe it not

As the lightning come from the east unto the west

This verse goes directly against the pre trib rapture, there are many others

-------------++++

When we say it is like lot

With the case of noah and lot ,those taken away died from the judgment of God it is not a foreshadowed of the resserection

When it says we will meet the lord in the air Christ is descending he is not ascending

1 Thess 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. note

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It says we will meet the lord in the air so when he descends to earth 🌍

It does not say we will meet the lord in heaven and have a marriage supper of the lamb for seven years

Revelation 19
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The marriage supper of the lamb is at his second coming not at the rapture

The pre trib rapture theology should be put in the same category as the word of faith theology

As it is dangerous as are we saved so we can escape the tribulation as jesus died for our sins so that we can escape hell not the tribulation.

It is shaping into another gospel which gal 1 forbids

Hi Deltadom,

You are right we should not avoid being persecuted.
Jesus taught his disciples to take up the cross and follow Him. To die is to gain. Let's not avoid being persecuted but at the same time we should put our hope in Jesus the Messiah and trust in His name and continue to love each other.

Shalom

Hi,
So Docs if the answer is right there in front of us which is it :Are the Noah and Lot Prophesies by Jesus the same as 1 Thess 4:16 or not ?Why wont you answer?
urs staff

Hi Yulboum,
The more important thing about "persecution" is that it is not understood by Post Trib believers.They mix up the subject of persecution and a period of time called The Great Tribulation.They think the two terms are interchangable which they are not,
urs staff

Staff there is a reference to μέγας
θλίψιν

Revelation 2:22 N-AFS
GRK: αὐτῆς εἰς θλίψιν μεγάλην ἐὰν
NAS: with her into great tribulation, unless
KJV: great tribulation, except
INT: her into tribulation great if

Revelation 7:14 N-GFS
GRK: ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης
NAS: out of the great tribulation, and they have washed
KJV: great tribulation, and
INT: out of the tribulation great

These are the only two references to mega thilpses
https://biblehub.com/greek/2347.htm

I don't you understand there is about 4 words used for persecution
διωγμός https://biblehub.com/greek/1375.htm

ὀργή
Wrath https://biblehub.com/greek/3709.htm

κακοπαθέω
Affliction
https://biblehub.com/greek/2553.htm

Staff stop question bombing I have answered your question and you just simply go onto another subject or say that your question hasn't been answered but it has but you don't like the answer

Why do you struggle so hard with this concept during the time of Jeremiah the people kept saying to Jeremiah we will be 2 years in captivity and then come home . There was false prophets saying that they would not go through it

I know I cannot handle persecution and only by god's grace and I am a sinner saved by grace , we may not like the doctrine of things like hell or going through the great tribulation but I would rather follow truth than a lie.

The Israelites went through all of god's wrath on Egypt
Why do you think we should have it any different.
The early church and there are many in the world that are going through persecution through there faith right now

Why should we believe in a pre trib doctrine that has absolutely no basis in scripture and that the early church did not believe , it wasn't important enough to pass down through the creeds such as doctrines such as the trinity or justification by faith .

There is no neon sign that is going to say you are now entering the great tribulation

Time will be the great judge i doubt I will live to be in that time let alone at the end time resserection/ second coming as I believe they are both the same event

Isaiah 30:10

"Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

Jeremiah 37:10
For though ye had smitten the whole army of the Chaldeans that fight against you, and there remained [but] wounded men among them, [yet] should they rise up every man in his tent, and burn this city with fire.

The Scriptures give the answer. Consider the once only coming again of Christ with the timing of that coming in Matthew 24:29 and you have your obvious and clear answer.

Hi Docs and Delta
So can you show me on the posts where you have answered the very very simple question YES or No
Are the Noah and Lot Prophesies by Jesus the same event as 1 Thess 4:16????
Its a Yes or No answer ,their isnt another.
Both of you have been saying that you are experts on the subject and that you have the answers but cant or wont answer simple questions .The reason I suspect is that you know that the answer to this question doesnt fit in with an old wives tale called the Post Trib rapture.
There is no other explanation for it and I think everyone can see your avoidance.There is no other answer to the question ,they are either the same or they are not.I am on the record as saying they are more than likely the same event,
urs staff

The Lot and Noah comments by Jesus describe the general conditions in Palestine at the time of Jesus bringing judgment to Jerusalem via the Roman armies in 70 AD. People will be carrying on as usual just as they were carrying on in the days before the earth was flooded and before brimstone rained down on the cities of the plain. They are unprepared because they did not heed the warning and flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies (Lk. 21:20-21). They are not taken in rapture; they are massacred and tossed in the burning rubbish heaps with untold thousands of their comrades by the Roman invaders (Lk. 17:37).

1 Thess. 4:16 describes the actual Second Coming, which is the only "catching up” of believers.

Hi TMk
Not general specific,
They did eat ,drink ,sow ,plant etc,
They were very specific,
urs staff

To those who are claiming that the harpazo (rapture) described in 1 Thess. 4:17 happens at the same time (exactly) as Christ's Second Coming, why in the world would the church float up into the air to meet Christ if He is coming down and landing on the Mt. of Olives? That makes ZERO sense. Just so you know, I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture. I happen to believe it happens after Babylon is destroyed as described in Revelation 18. And guess what. This is AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS just like Jesus said but before His Second Coming. And what happens in between? The Marriage Supper of the Lamb. How long does the Marriage Supper of the Lamb last. I suspect not that long. Most probably less than 6 months. I would think maybe a month. But in any case, not very long. I personally believe that after the last person to be saved is in fact saved, the church that is alive and the dead in Christ receive their glorified bodies (in the twinkling of an eye) and are taken into the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in heaven. Soon thereafter, Christ, the glorified church and the other hosts of heaven will follow Christ to reclaim the Earth for God.

Go look it up. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb occurs BEFORE Christ mounts His white horse and descends to Earth (the Second Coming). Rev. 19:6-10 describes the Marriage Supper of the Lamb having come. It gives no details except to say that blessed are those invited there. Then Rev. 19:11 and following describes Christ and the armies in heaven descending to Earth to judge it with much wrath. So obviously, the Marriage Supper is over because wrath and judgement isn't something that happens at a marriage celebration.

Again, this is how I interpret the Bible on eschatology and I am not dogmatic about it. I also don't feel ill-will toward people who are pre-trib or post-trib. I think that many will fall away because they believe in pre-trib and so I say, be prepared for His Coming at any time, like now and going forward regardless of what happens or doesn't happen. I myself was post-trib for a long time and enjoyed Left Behind or Led Astray documentary by Joe Schimmel whom I love dearly. I even got the long version of that video. He does a good job examining the history of how pre-trib came into being especially with Darby but also people who influenced Darby. My only problem with post-trib (and it isn't a problem that will cause any serious repercussions for those who believe it) is that the idea that we will rise up to meet the Lord in the air only to come back down to Earth is frankly, weird. Why was it so important to rise only to turn around and descend again? So blessings to all here in finding truth. What is more important than exactly when the Lord will come is whether we are ready for His coming. May the bride make herself ready because Jesus deserves the very best!

P.S. It just occurred to me that my position is also post-trib but is different from most post-tribbers because I believe that after the tribulation but before Jesus descends to Earth to judge it, the church is glorified and rises to heaven to celebrate the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I don't want to be called mid-trib either. Read Rev. 19

-Daniel

Hi Staff,
Thanks for pointing that out.
Those two terms should be well defined and not mixed up.

The rapture is quite hard to understand with our own mind but let's keep on seeking the Lord Jesus and look forward for His return and I believe He will give us understanding and make us ready. In the meantime let's pray for each other that our faith will grow and love for one another will grow as we wait to be taken away because the world is obviously getting darker.

Shalom
Robert

//To those who are claiming that the harpazo (rapture) described in 1 Thess. 4:17 happens at the same time (exactly) as Christ's Second Coming, why in the world would the church float up into the air to meet Christ if He is coming down and landing on the Mt. of Olives?//

Because the Bride is rushing to welcome her Bridegroom who has finally returned in triumph, just like the bridesmaids in Mt. 25:1.

No one has been saying they are an expert on the issue. Scripture is the expert I believe, and I have become content to let it speak for itself in its simple and clear manner on this issue. It is a gift from the Lord it is so simple and it goes hand in hand with what the early church taught at the beginning and throughout church history until the 1830s. That is something pre-trib advocates seem to have a hard time acknowledging.

Like I said, your question is obviously a gotcha question that your emphatic obsession with has also been apparent to all. Plus, I answered albeit not in the way you desired. So, for the third time, if you factor in the timing of Matthew 24:29, you have your answer if the two two passages are the same. When do they occur? If you believe the error that Christ will come again twice, then it"s all moot and can be jimmyed around to fit one's preference.

Also, can you show a post where you have answered clearly what "after the tribulation of those days" means? It's meaning is simple and clear to me. That's all I meant to convey. What is its meaning in your opinion?

Blessings.

I lean 45 degrees onto the post-trib side and we go by Jesus words. Believing they both occur at the same time doesn't mean I'm pre-trib or anything of the sort.

The sad thing is that you are always and I mean ALWAYS telling us what post-tribbers believe even though you don't believe it. You are a hammer and you look for every single nail.

I think post-tribbers as well as pre-tribbers and everyone in between will all be surprised on that Day! And we'll know we were wrong but we'll be so elated to be in His presence that of course, we'll no longer be arguing about it!!

God bless,
Lisa

Hi Docs
You clearly didnt answer the question at all in any way .It was a yes or no question and they were the only answers.You were being delibrately obtuse.
If the myth of the Post Trib rapture is so easy to see as you say then you would have been able to answer yes or no.I answered my own question with a yes that its probably most likely the same event,I would say 99 percent yes.Whether its a gothca question is irrevelant you should be able to answer yes or no or I dont know .......
urs staff

Like I said, your question is obviously a gotcha question that your emphatic obsession with has also been apparent to all. Plus, I answered albeit not in the way you desired

staff,

I haven't cared to answer your gotcha question, it is obvious what you were up to. Although I did answer it albeit in a roundabout way.

I'm not trying to annoy you here by explaining it simply. But the post-trib view holds that, in agreement with Christ's own words, He will come again once "AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days" (Matt 24:29). However I may have failed in doing so, my point has been that I believe that it is not hard to understand. It should be taken in its straightforward simplicity it seems. When I say it's not complicated and is simple, that is not a know it all statement of condescension. If Christ is only going to come again ONCE and I Thess 4:16-17 etc. is speaking of the Lord coming for his people and the resurrection and the glorification of the saints, then it will have to occur after the tribulation of those days because that was Christ's own words regarding His coming. If we trust Christ's words, then the post-trib rapture is hardly a myth or an old wives tale in your words. In my opinion, the issue has become much more complicated than ever need be in spite of the God intended clarity scripture presents.

Thank you. Blessings.

Hey Docs
I told you along time ago it was a gotcha question so dont come back days later and use that as an excuse not to answer the question.Jesus asked gotcha questions also to gotcha questions.

Just answer the question or say I am unable to answer the question because I dont know or im not sure
Are the prophesies made by Jesus about Noah and Lot going to happen at the same time as 1 Thess 4:16 ?Yes or No
Simple as any other answer is just avoidance

"If Christ is only going to come again"

Are you doubting that he is only coming once?

You are the one making it complicated I asked for a straightforward view by a Post Tribulationist and you refused to answer except in long long paragraphs that are always unclear whether its yes or no in fairness,
I have also answered my own question in a yes or no fashion so you know my position and its clear.
The problem you have is that the pre tribulation believer can answer that question yes or no but the post tribulation believer cant answer yes or no because it cant possibly fit into the time line .They want to say "yes" but know if they say yes it blows away the Post Trib arguement ,
urs staff

/Hey Docs
I told you a long time ago it was a gotcha question so don't come back days later and use that as an excuse to not answer the question. Jesus asked gotcha questions to gotcha questions./

I have never felt under any obligation to jump through your hoops by answering a question of which I would wager you have already decided how to answer no matter what I say. The universe remaining standing does not revolve around answering your one question.

/Just answer the question or say I am unable to answer because I don't know or im not sure/

Being as polite as I can, you don't dictate how I post. No hoop jumping here good bro.

/Are the prophecies made by Jesus about Noah and Lot going to happen at the same time as I Thess 4:16 or? Yes or No.
Simple as any other answer is just avoidance./

I replied, "If Christ is going to come again ONCE and I Thess 4:16-17 etc. is speaking of the Lord coming for His people and the resurrection and glorification of the saints, then it will have to be after the tribulation of those days because that was Christ's own words regarding His coming."

Christ's words in my opinion are profoundly simple and uncomplicated. Combined with my belief that Christ will only come again once, your answer is there. What does AFTER mean?

/"If Christ is only going to come again"

Are you doubting he is only coming once?/

My statement, clearly there to read was, "If Christ is going to come again ONCE"...

If He is going to come in a pre-trib rapture and then come again after the tribulation then that is two comings. I don't believe that. I don't think I have lost my cognitive powers when I say coming at a pre-trib rapture and coming at the end of tribulation equals TWO comings.

/The problem you have is that the pre tribulation believer can answer that question yes or no but the post tribulation believer cant answer yes or no because it cant possibly fit into the time line. They want to say "yes" but know if they say yes it blows away the Post Trib argument./

That is just a blanket caricature without merit along with many of the ways you have presented post trib believers which are incorrect. I'm sorry you may believe that because it's not true.

Thank you staff. That's likely enough for now and these good folks I bet are tired of me about now. May you and your family be sincerely blessed during this special season.

Hi Docs
The problem is you wont answer the question because you cant answer the question.You are using every excuse not too as we can see in all of the long long posts to a simple question.
It was yes or no or I dont know or Im not sure.
If you were so sure in your beliefs and theology you would have been able to anwser.The Post Trib rapture is a religion that excludes grace where if you are not persecuted to death then you are not ready,its theological self flagellation.Altough all tribulation views have flaws the Post tribulation view crushes the most beautiful of doctrines grace to death while having a holier than thou attitude to everyone who doesnt believe it,
urs staff

//If you were so sure in your beliefs and theology//

Staff- perhaps you are just a tad too sure in yours?

Quite honestly anyone who thinks they have eschatology drilled down to perfection is either exceedingly pompous or exceedingly foolish.

Folks will still be arguing about it in a 1000 years should the Lord tarry, and He very well might.

Staff i have answered your question I have given you biblical evidence and provided evidence to the contrary
The house I am staying at in Jerusalem is looking over the mount of olives where it states in scripture where jesus will return

Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey

Jesus does not say in this passage I am returning for my church , he says in the same way you go up I will return ,
There was no returning for the church and then judgement for the world

Staff I have provided biblical evidence in my previous post regarding the issue of lot and noah and 1 Thess 4.

You have not dealt with any of my points such as Matt 24 and rev 1 or even 2 Thess 1 which are clearly verses that counteract the view of the pre trib rapture

I would say the opposite Jesus came to save us from sin and from hell he did not come to save us from persecution or tribulation

Something is true whether you like it or not such as the doctrine of hell

The danger is not that Jesus came to save us out of the tribulation

Galatians 1
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

The subject staff of my post is the pre trib rapture is not in early creeds or in any early Christian literature such as the early church father

Which you have not provided evidence for

Hi TMK,
Whats ur problem ,I asked a yes or no question from the experts on Post Tribulationism and they refused to answer.SI has been drilling this works gospel down everyones throat as long as I remember,
urs staff

Hi Deltadom,
So is that a yes or a no??
Are the Prophesies of Jesus regarding the Days of Noah and Lot describing the same event as 1 Thess 4:16??

I asked this question long before you asked anything of me and I think as a courtesy you should be able to answere it without going into a Matthew Henry like response

urs staff

I answered the question read the previous posts and actually interact. Stop cherry picking as I have given you lots of reasons not to believe in a pre trib rapture and you have not answered any of them.

Start a new thread on this topic as this is a red herring

Hi Deltadom,
Could you direct me to the post where you answered the following question
Are the Prophesies Jesus made regarding Noah and Lot days the same event as 1 Thess 4:16?
The answer is either yes or no or I dont know or Im not sure
Do you agree at least that they either are or they are not?.
You could say yes or no and then qualify it even surely.

You only think this is a red herring because like the Pharisees you wont answer."Was the baptism of John from Heaven or man?
The Pharisees replied at least and said "we cant answer" and did not pretend that they gave an answer already.They were being truthful if not honest.
urs staff

Your Qoute:
I answered the question read the previous posts and actually interact. Stop cherry picking as I have given you lots of reasons not to believe in a pre trib rapture and you have not answered any of them

Staff,

What is it with you and this question? You are not behaving in the 2nd commandment, love your brothers as yourself. I have never seen you seen you behaving this bad before.

Here was my answer , lysa is right were is your love

The reason I say this if you want to start this on another thread as the main title of this thread is not is 1 thess 4:16 related to noah and lot

1 Thess 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

To me which is a spurious link

It is almost logically incoherent question and the causial fallacy

Causal fallacies
Causal fallacies are informal fallacies that occur when an argument incorrectly concludes that a cause is related to an effect. Think of the causal fallacy as a parent category for other fallacies about unproven causes.

One example is the false cause fallacy, which is when you draw a conclusion about what the cause was without enough evidence to do so. Another is the post hoc fallacy, which is when you mistake something for the cause because it came first ”” not because it actually caused the effect.

pencil-alt icon Study Tool
Which kind of causal fallacy is at work in these examples?

EXAMPLE 1

"Jimmy isn't at school today. He must be on a family trip."

EXAMPLE 2

"Every time a rooster crows, the sun comes up. Crows must be the creators of the universe."

I have quoted from this site https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/#causal-fallacy

It is like circular reasoning we answer the question ,you ignore the answer and think you are right

To link these verses together it at best fallioous and it it completely of topic it is one big red herring

It also shows a lack of honesty and not interacting with the other arguments ..

In love please actually read what we have said as if you do not interact with what we have said you are missing the person behind the question
_-----------------------

Staff , why do we have to minute quandary when you have verses that directly contradict the rapture

Why is I am ignored and then try to get on a red herring as linking the verses to lot and noah

Matt 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

You need to read this in the light of genesis as only noah and his family were saved

When it says they were taken , they were taken for judgement they died in both cases

Genesis 7
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. note

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark

So everyone who was taken died

Genesis 19
22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. note

23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. note

24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

So in the life of lot those that were taken were destroyed

These two biblical historical events have nothing to do with 1 Thess 4

I cry as people who believe in the pre trib rapture miss the major things and focus on the minors

As deal with all the verses that directly contradict and go against the pre trib rapture

God bless

Dom.

Ps note there is no references to harpizo to the biblical accounts of noah and lot
αρπαζω occurs 30 times in the OT. ge.37.33 ; le.6.4 ; le.19.13 ; de.28.31 ; 2sa.23.21 ; job.20.19 ; job.24.2 ; job.24.9 ; job.24.19 ; ps.7.2 ; ps.10.9 ; ps.10.9 ; ps.22.13 ; ps.50.22 ; ps.104.21 ; is.10.2 ; eze.18.7 ; eze.18.12 ; size.18.16 ; eze.18.18 ; eze.19.3 ; eze.19.6 ; eze.22.25 ; eze.22.27 ; ho.5.14 ; am.1.11 ; am.3.4 ; mic.3.2 ; mic.5.8 ; na.2.12

Hi Delta,
You know right well the main aspect of this post from the start is to get a good old kick in at the Pre Trib rapture believers.Same as always on SI with Post trib view.
By and large Pre Trib tribbers dont treat Post trib believers in the dispicable way that Post trib believers treat Pre Tribbers.
You delibrately refused and still wont answer the question which is totally related to rapture theology.
You have posted really long incoherent posts and all I want to know is whether you think the two scriptures are talking about the same events.
Are the two passages related yes or no.Its a fair question which I answered myself remember.
urs staff

Hi Lysa
You can take sides if you want but dont pretend that you are not.I could easily say you are equally not behaving as the 2nd Commandment says.Where is the love from Docs or Delta and yet no complaints from you.
Delta and Docs brought up a subject and are point blank stubbornly refusing to answer a simple question while pretending they are not .So if you want to be even handed in your critisism then I can accept that but you are not in my opinion.
If they said hey we cant answer your question ,I would say ok thats fine and leave it at that,
urs staff

Staff this was my oringal post I have lovingly answered your question I even posted my previous answer in the previous post

My original thinking was the fact that if the rapture was important it would be written in the early church creeds or by the early church fathers and throughout church history .

You have not even touched this subject even thou this was my original post

I even answered your question again if you like but I think it is a casual fallacy to even link the two passages together as the word harpizo is not mentioned in the greek passages of the septugient in neither of the those two passages you mentioned .

I can start a new thread with this question if you would like God bless Dom
_--------+++++++++

The rapture of the church is not in early Christian literature and go against the creeds\tReply To This Post | Edit |
It is my birthday today
The word rapture is a 16th century word. It is Latin it is not the English of rapimiure. This I found shocking.

The early church didn't know this word , the apostles did not know this word , why as Christians should we be even using this word.

You think a secret coming to his church and then a third coming

This is the apostles creed it does not mention it

Do you believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

Nicene creed

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father.

God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.

Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, became human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.

By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.

He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the uncreate and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, the prophets, and the Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.

We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, in the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life

No rapture , not a mention of it in any of the creeds of the Christian faith

Not mentioned in the didiache
Which is an early Christian writing
Chapter 16. Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord. Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: "The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him." Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

Creed of chaceldone
Following, then, the holy Fathers, we all unanimously teach that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us One and the same Son, the Self-same Perfect in Godhead, the Self-same Perfect in Manhood; truly God and truly Man; the Self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the Self-same co-essential with us according to the Manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the Self-same, for us and for our salvation (born) of Mary the Virgin Theotokos as to the Manhood; One and the Same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten; acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis; not as though He was parted or divided into Two Persons, but One and the Self-same Son and Only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself hath taught us, and as the Symbol of the Fathers hath handed down to us.

Maybe the early church fathers

Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (Didache - Chapter 16)

Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;" (First Apology of Justin, Chapter 110)

Irenaeus (AD 140-202) "he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." (Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1)

Tertullian (AD 150-220) "that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, Revelation xviii and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 25)

Hippolytus (AD 160-240) "That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains," (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

Cyprian (AD 200-258) "For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle ... "The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service…" Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times," (Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2)
Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. (Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722)

Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church." (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3)

None of the early church , apostles or Paul knew what the rapture was , they would look at you blindly in ignorance , what is that as one they didn't speak Latin
To me it is dangerous because it becomes hidden knowledge

Hi Delta,
When you "Lovingly" "answered" did you say Yes or No and could you highlight where you said Yes or No please?
If you didnt answer yes or no could you tell us all why you didnt?
Urs staff

Your qoute
Staff this was my oringal post I have lovingly answered your question I even posted my previous answer in the previous post

Staff I feel this is fruitless as all you have to do is read
I feel like I am hitting my head against a brick wall as it is not a simple yes or no answer but I have answered the question
Answer my question what has this got to do with the subject as it is a complete red herring or rabbit hole