God Knows All Things Past, Present and Future

God Knows All Things Past, Present and Future
BY STEPHEN CHARNOCK

God knows all things, whether they be possible, past, present, or future; whether they be things that he can do, but will never do, or whether they be things that he hath done, but are not now; things that are now in being, or things that are not now existing, that lie in the womb of their proper and immediate causes. If his understanding be infinite, he then knows all things whatsoever that can be known, else his understanding would have bounds, and what hath limits is not infinite, but finite. If he be ignorant of any one thing that is knowable, that is a bound to him, it comes with an exception, a but, God knows all things but this; a bar is then set to his knowledge. If there were anything, any particular circumstance in the whole creation or non-creation, and possible to be known by him, and yet were unknown to him, he could not be said to be omniscient; as he would not be Almighty if any one thing, that implied not a repugnancy to his nature, did transcend his power.

But what do the scriptures say...?
Nothing even close to this, in fact you can’t get through the first book before this ship gets torpedoed and sunk 🤷🏽”â™‚️

God knows all future things, all things to come. The differences of time cannot hinder a knowledge of all things by him, who is before time, above time, that is not measured by hours, or days, or years; if God did not know them, the hindrance must be in himself, or in the things themselves, because they are things to come: not in himself; if it did, it must arise from some impotency in his own nature, and so we render him weak; or from an unwillingness to know, and so we render him lazy, and an enemy to his own perfection; for, simply considered, the knowledge of more things is a greater perfection than the knowledge of a few; and if the knowledge of a thing includes something of perfection, the ignorance of a thing includes something of imperfection. The knowledge of future things is a greater perfection than not to know them, and is accounted among men a great part of wisdom, which they call foresight; it is then surely a greater perfection in God to know future things, than to be ignorant of them. And would God rather have something of imperfection than be possessor of all perfection? Nor doth the hindrance lie in the things themselves, because their futurition depends upon his will; for as nothing can actually be without his will, giving it existence, so nothing can be future without his will, designing the futurity of it. Certainly if God knows all things possible, which he will not do, he must know all things future, which he is not only able, but resolved to do, or resolved to permit. God’s perfect knowledge of himself, that is, of his own infinite power and concluding will, necessarily includes a foreknowledge of what he is able to do, and what he will do. Again, if God doth not know future things, there was a time when God was ignorant of most things in the world; for before the deluge he was more ignorant than after; the more things were done in the world, the more knowledge did accrue to God, and so the more perfection; then the understanding of God was not perfect from eternity, but in time; nay, is not perfect yet, if he be ignorant of those things which are still to come to pass; he must tarry for a perfection he wants, till those futurities come to be in act, till those things which are to come, cease to be future, and begin to be present. Either God knows them, or desires to know them; if he desires to know them and doth not, there is something wanting to him; all desire speaks an absence of the object desired, and a sentiment of want in the person desiring: if he doth not desire to know them, nay, if he doth not actually know them, it destroys all providence, all his government of affairs; for his providence hath a concatenation of means with a prospect of something that is future: as in Joseph’s case, who was put into the pit, and sold to the Egyptians in order to his future advancement, and the preservation both of his father and his envious brethren. If God did not know all the future inclinations and actions of men, something might have been done by the will of Potiphar, or by the free-will of Pharoah, whereby Joseph might have been cut short of his advancement, and so God have been interrupted in the track and method of his designed providences. He that hath decreed to govern man for that end he hath designed him, knows all the means before, whereby he will govern him, and therefore hath a distinct and certain knowledge of all things; for a confused knowledge is an imperfection in government; it is in this the infiniteness of his understanding is more seen than in knowing things past or present; his eyes are a flame of fire (Rev. 1:14), in regard of the penetrating virtue of them into things impenetrable by any else. (Stephen Charnock)

I wish Stephen Charnock would write a dissertation on how bored God must be.

EDIT: would have written- since he’s been dead for a few centuries.

May grace and peace abound towards you and be multiplied 🙏🏻

You said,” God knows all future things, all things to come. The differences of time cannot hinder a knowledge of all things by him,"

God said,” And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him"

You said,” God knows all future things, all things to come. The differences of time cannot hinder a knowledge of all things by him,"

God said,” And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years"

You said,” God knows all future things, all things to come. The differences of time cannot hinder a knowledge of all things by him,"

God said,” And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them"

You said,” God knows all future things, all things to come. The differences of time cannot hinder a knowledge of all things by him,"

God said,” Then God said to Noah "I HAVE DECIDED to put an end to every creature, for the earth is filled with wickedness BECAUSE OF THEM; therefore I am going to destroy them along with the earth." (emphasis added)

You said,” Nor doth the hindrance lie in the things themselves, because their futurition depends upon his will; for as nothing can actually be without his will, giving it existence, so nothing can be future without his will, designing the futurity of it”

Jesus said, " "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I WANTED TO gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, BUT YOU WERE NOT WILLING! (emphasis added)

You said,” Nor doth the hindrance lie in the things themselves, because their futurition depends upon his will; for as nothing can actually be without his will, giving it existence, so nothing can be future without his will, designing the futurity of it”

The scriptures say,”The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.”

You said,” Nor doth the hindrance lie in the things themselves, because their futurition depends upon his will; for as nothing can actually be without his will, giving it existence, so nothing can be future without his will, designing the futurity of it”

The scriptures say,” The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled”

Savannah, i hold nothing but love for you and S. Charnock and have no quarrel with either of you, yet ; yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged

At the end of chapter one of Genesis we find, " And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good”
Yet in chapter two we find, " And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.”

This is the first "change” we find in scripture, from "good” to "not good” and God provides remedy -

In the sixth chapter of Genesis we find, in the first seven verses, the scriptures to record/declare/demonstrate the full declination of Gods emotion over His approval regarding His creation, as a result of mans rebellion- itself causing God to "change” His mind again, resulting in the destruction of all that He had previously declared "good” yet now was readily observed and declared to be "evil”.

From beginning to end the scriptures do consistently illustrate the phenomenon of God changing His mind regarding our (mans) unwillingness to do His will,... to yield our lives surrendering our will and exchanging it for His.

As if the first book wasn’t enough... take a most famous case where God pleaded with Israel to see Him as their King yet they demanded an earthly one .... tho He being full of integrity warned them overtly as to the end of that which they sought, nonetheless He acquiesced and anointed the best among them to fill the role tho in spite of Gods anointing the result was death . Yet again, God sought and found one in whom His heart might be known to His people, tho even there we still find that sin crept in and the wages were death.

Further still, the term "if” is inescapably present through the scriptures set forth as a condition of man to humble himself in order to receive Gods grace,... yet the scriptures solemnly record the inevitable result of those whom "were not willing” .
If mans will were not capable of thwarting Gods will, then there would be no need for discipline much less punishment.
Wether Nineveh's repentance, or Israel’s lack of repentance both are inescapably presented by scripture to be conditional, that is not even a remote possibility according to the above quotes by S. Charnock🤷🏽”â™‚️

I submit to you all that when the scriptures state the Lord knows the end from the beginning that has been sorely twisted and divorced from the whole council of the word- for do the scriptures not also declare "every seed will bear fruit after its own kind” and "God is not mocked, as a man soweth so shall he also reap” ?
When, even before it is sown, God knows the end of that seed from the beginning,.... wether it be of the spirit and sown into His kingdom or of the flesh and sown into this world. Yet many twist the words of the prophet as they do other scriptures as though they have formed a concept of God and are attempting to fit/force the scriptures into their preconceived notion,... and where there are plain, straightforward verses that clearly demonstrate the inconsistencies of their concepts and the revelation of scripture, they repent not !?? Rather they cling desperately to their own ideas and they become idols unto them much like Israel refusing the counsel of the prophet Samuel and sought the idolatry of an earthly king 😔

As stated before, the church has a patently Greek concept of God, much like a zeus type character with a Jesus t-shirt on completely devoid of the revelation of Gods character as revealed by the scriptures. The two are simply incompatible and we (church) just like first century Israel, must repent else we will likewise perish -

The scriptures record God saying,” I know my plans for you” and "IF” ....
IF YOU WILL harken unto my voice, THEN I WILL ....
the onus is and always was,... on us, The onus IS ON US- full stop.

He, the LORD has already declared, demonstrated and recorded His will for us,... and it is we who lack the belief and faith to lay hold of the promise and not because He hasn't already furnished us with everything pertaining to life and godliness but because we refuse to come into the light,... "BUT, YOU WERE NOT WILLING”.

Romans 8:11 but IF the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For IF YE live after the flesh, ye shall die: but IF YE through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, YE shall live. (emphasis added)

How could it be made more clear?
Let he who has eyes see and ears hear 🙏🏻

You border on blasphemy Todd. Taking God's Name in vain by even making such a suggestion that God is bored, because His Being can be no other than Omniscient in His Perfection of this attribute as well as every other as regards Him.

You may laugh now, but the time will surely come when you fall at His feet as dead and proclaim woe is me placing your hand over your mouth as did Job.

You also denigrate this holy saint of God whom Christ loved and used mightily to glorify His Name on the earth.

It'd be well for you if you'd tread more lightly upon holy matters Todd.

It’s called rhetoric. I think you need to contemplate more the end result of the position Charnock espouses. God is indeed not bored. That’s because Charnock is dead wrong.

You come to the conclusion that you do because you compare God to a man.

You judge The Infinite and Eternal One by your own finite and temporal being.

Your thoughts of God are on a very low par as evidenced in this thread not to mention other threads.

If Charnock’s view of this minute meticulous sovereignty of God is correct, no true relationship with Him is possible. We are simply actors in a pre-ordained script.

Wow. The omniscience of God would not even make it on my list if possible debate topics because it is so clear in Scripture. God not only knows everything that was, is, and will be but He also knows counterfactuals! All of this is clearly spelled out in the Scriptures. It is plainly obvious. This is why robust theology is necessary.

Psalms 139

God’s Perfect Knowledge of Man
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.

O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
You comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.
You have hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
If I say, "Surely the darkness shall fall on me,”
Even the night shall be light about me;
Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You.
For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.
Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God!
Depart from me, therefore, you bloodthirsty men.
For they speak against You wickedly;
Your enemies take Your name in vain.
Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.
Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting.

JFW,

Please prove the following statement:

"As stated before, the church has a patently Greek concept of God.”

I don’t see it, but perhaps you can explain how me reading the Scriptures and coming to conclusions has been hijacked by Greek philosophers who have been dead for thousands of years.

TMK,

Please define "minute meticulous sovereignty.”

This thread has me thinking. My wife and I are finishing up another journey through the Old Testament. During our morning Bible reading times, I have been reading the entire Bible -- book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse -- aloud. My wife reads her Bible alongside as read aloud. This is our third journey in a row that we are nearly completed. It has been a wonderful series of experiences.

Throughout our most recent journey through the Old Testament, I have been struck by how many references there are to the Name of God.

We read the Bible in English. Many people are fully aware that when they read the word "the LORD" (with "LORD" in all capital letters), it is an English representation of the Name of God. This Name is, translated into English, YHWH. It has no vowels. In Hebrew (including proto-Hebrew), it is literally four Hebrew letters -- yodh, he, waw, and he. It is often referred to as the "Tetragrammaton."

While this Name for God (often pronounced "Yahweh," "Jehovah" or some other similar pronunciation) appears early in the Scriptures, it's historic origin in terms of Scripture recitation goes to Exodus chapter 3. This is the place in Scripture where God speaks to Moses from the burning (well, non-burning even though its aflame) bush.

There are arguments as to how the Name is pronounced. Apparently, during the Babylonian captivity (or possibly thereafter), the story goes that the Israelites in captivity didn't want to take the Name in vain. So, they preferred to say "Adonai" ("my Lord"), "HaShem" ("The Name") or "Elohim" ("God") anytime the Name appeared in Hebrew scripture (or even in conversation). Eventually, throughout the diaspora, the pronunciation was (supposedly) lost.

I actually disagree with this widely accepted history regarding the loss of pronunciation. The Masoretes added vowel markers in what culminated as the Masoretic text of Hebrew scriptures. Moreover, the shortened form of the Name appears within many Hebrew names. For instance, Elijah is literally "Eli Yah" (or "my god is Yah"). Moreover, the word "hallelujah" (or "halalu yah") is literally the Hebrew imperative phrase "[you shall] praise Yah" (or "praise ye Yah"). See Psalm 150:1.

When John had his Revelation, he heard voices in Heaven crying out "Hallelujah" (Revelation 19). This reference in Revelation is particularly important because it is the only direct inclusion of the shortened form of the Name (i.e., "Yah") in the New Testament.

In terms of pronunciation, John was a Jew in the 1st Century. He didn't translate that word into Greek -- but retained the Hebrew phonetic pronunciation transliterated into Greek. He retained the Hebrew pronunciation. It's interesting to me because that word is essentially the same pronunciation in virtually every language (even if it has often lost its meaning).

So, as we have been reading, I keep reflecting on the references to the "Name." It is the "Temple of his Name." God would save Jerusalem "for His Name's sake." "If my people who are called by my Name." It's important from Genesis through Malachi.

Okay. So, what does this have to do with this discussion?

I kept going back to Exodus chapter 3. This is when God tells Moses what His Name is. Moses was concerned that the Hebrews might ask who the "God of your fathers" might be. So, Moses asked the LORD what he should tell them. God answered, "I AM that I AM." He told them to tell them, "I AM has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:14-15).

The Hebrew word's phoneticized pronunciation for this in the Masoretic text is "ha Ya" (whereas the "ha" is pronounced more like a "high"). In the Strong's concordance, this would be found as reference H1961.

This is where I think that it fits into this conversation. This "ha Ya" doesn't simply mean "I AM." It can also mean "I WAS" and "I WILL BE." In fact, some Bible translations include a footnote to Exodus 3:14 that shows this. The "Ya" here is understood to be the shortened form of the Name (i.e., "Yah" as in "Yahweh" or "Yahova"). In fact, the root of this phrase is literally "I EXIST" -- past, present and future.

This certainly resembles what we also read in Revelation 1:4 -- referring to God as "who was, who is and who is to come." It is also found in verse 8 (and there are even several worship songs with verses based upon this opening benediction from Revelation 1).

This eternal nature of God shouldn't surprise us. After all, Hebrews states rather clearly that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8). The concept of eternity is not an ancient past, the current present and the endless future. For God, it is an eternal state of "now." There is no time (or time limits) to God. This is literally the meaning of His Name.

In fact, I was recently reading some studies about the possible "first spoken words" for human beings. Linguistic anthropologists were mostly suggesting some form of "ma," "da," pa" or "wa" -- because they are cross-cultural references to mother, father and water/food. However, I decided to look at the Bible for the REAL answer.

We know what Genesis chapter 1 states about creation. "In the beginning..." However, the first actual spoken words recorded in the Bible are found in Genesis 1:3: "Let there be light."

I went back to the Masoretic text to see this in Hebrew. After all, I think that there is a strong argument that proto-Hebrew was the first language on Earth (and there are several reasons why).

The Hebrew phonetic for the phrase "Let there be light" is "ha Ya ore."

Does that sound familiar? The "or" is Hebrew for "light." However, the "ha Ya" for "Let there be" is the same root used in Exodus 3:14 for "I AM."

The interesting thing to me is that we immediately remember what Jesus said to his disciples: "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12). We also know that John wrote that, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). It goes on to immediately call the Word "light" (i.e., "the Light of men" and "the Light shines in the darkness" in verses 4-5).

In physics, we learn about physical light. It is often referred to as the "universal constant" or the "universal speed limit." Einstein pointed out that nothing in the universe could exceed the speed of light. In other words, there is almost an eternal nature to it. Yet, in a spiritual sense, Jesus is the Light of the world -- the Light of all creation.

I fully embrace the notion of the omnipotent AND omniscient nature of God. This is despite the fact that my mind (or this side of the "glass darkly") cannot comprehend it (John 1:5). The eternal nature -- and knowledge -- of God is found in His very Name. The Name of the LORD invokes this eternal constant -- that the LORD was, is and is to come. There is nothing -- including no thought -- that can be hidden from the light of his face. He makes known the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10).

Now, I won't try to apply this into endless debates over the nature of salvation -- because I believe strongly that God can choose people who can walk away from him (the captivity is pretty solid anecdotal evidence of people who are "called by my Name" turning away and even going toward idolatry).

So, I won't debate the merit or extent by which the omniscience of the LORD may or may not subvert human choice. I just know that we are given the imperative to "Choose you this day whom you will serve..." However, the omniscience of God is beyond debate. God is eternal and, throughout eternity, knows everything.

The LORD bless you and keep you! May His face shine on us all.

Thanks, Christopher! I really enjoyed reading your post!

//Please define "minute meticulous sovereignty.”//

Charnock sums it up well.

You also must deeply consider the implications of what this means, and you will understand why I think, if it is true, God is the most supremely bored Being.

If I knew everything in advance, including the supposed "free will” actions of my creation, how is this a true relationship? If you knew in advance everything a loved one is going to say, do, or think, how is that a true relationship? "Ho hum” is all that it is.

I agree that God knows all there is to know.

Please prove the following statement:

"As stated before, the church has a patently Greek concept of God.”

I don’t see it, but perhaps you can explain how me reading the Scriptures and coming to conclusions has been hijacked by Greek philosophers who have been dead for thousands of years.

Havok,
Not Greek philosophers, satan is the hijacker, greek philosophy was merely the means to shift the focus from the internal back to the external...
Which in many ways mirrors the external purification practices of Judaism, in that the focus was on the appearance of perfection but devoid of purity of heart - Paul remarks and warns in Acts 20, of grievous wolves and men speaking perverse things drawing the disciples away unto themselves.
There was a constant attack on the early church by Roman, hoping to assimilate them and ultimately did so around the time of Augustine where we find the "church” as a state institution shortly after having been persecuted for 300yrs...

Greek/Roman history and culture, philosophy and mythology (concept of God) had permanently replaced the Hebrew version by the early-mid 400’s
in all but a few cases.

You, me, we all were taught that to conceive of a proper concept of God, the first principle is omniscience followed closely by omnipotence, omnipresent, an all seeing and knowing and in complete control of everything else it just wouldn’t be what "God” is.....
like you and everyone else I know, I accepted this premise and it wasn’t until I became a disciple and really began to attempt to follow the Jesus of the Bible that my study of scripture got serious enough to notice that the God of the Bible wasn’t at all like I had imagined and while there is great comfort in believing in such a "God” the truth is, that’s not at all the way He presents Himself in the very first book containing the story of creation. Here we find quite a different concept that we sometimes try to (I did) force fit our idea/concept onto the scriptures and/or force fit the scriptures into our little boxed view of "God”. This invariably leads to massive holes that require allot of theological and doctrinal caulk to fill. But if we love the truth, we will accept it regardless of the consequences. Not only in Genesis but in every book where God is named, and in the one He’s not ;), this same distinctly Hebraic concept of a Holy and deeply intimate God is at once set against our primarily Hellenistic concept itself being an aggregate of intersecting cultural beliefs from the ancient kingdoms, the potted meat of paganism.
Today these concepts have risen to the forefront of "modern Christianity” unencumbered much like yeast in freshly kneaded dough.....the tares amongst the wheat, virtually inseparable. An extreme example of Greek philosophy in the church was the popular "cheap grace” movement where the foundation of unbiblical doctrines was exposed underneath that had remained covered for centuries, tho ultimately fomenting the current form of "narcissistic Christianity” we see today. In every case where this leaven has taken hold, there is also found a "body” not under the headship of Christ, rather under the headship of the church and it’s creeds and confessions.
For example, we may say sola scripture but when the scriptures raise a standard, we retreat to our preconceived notions where our conscience can be comforted, not by the Holy one of Israel but by the "god” of our imagination wearing a Jesus t-shirt, this is idolatry plain and simple.
Again this (greek) concept of an all knowing deity whom controls everyone’s actions giving only the appearance of free will is completely divorced and unreconcilable to the verses I put forth from the first few chapters of Genesis and it only gets worse from there... the books of Jeremiah are an eternal stalwart standing against this imported concept🤷🏽”â™‚️

The intertwining of Hellenistic Greek into Jewish culture and religion had already begun well before Jesus came and according to scripture will be so when He returns, hence the narcissistic Laodiceans (Rev 3).
This influence is historically observed and recorded.

Much like how our medical schools are heavily influenced by big pharma, likewise our seminaries are heavily influenced by big church and as the scriptures record,... the outer court was defiled by the gentiles -

If God does not know the future then how were the old testament prophets able to prophesy/write down events before they happened? How does one reconcile this?

What about so called modern day prophets? If there is no foreknowledge of God then why support them?

Isaiah 41:21-24 - [21] Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob.[22] Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. [23] Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. [24] Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.

Isaiah 44:6-8 - [6] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. [7] And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. [8] Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 46:9-11 - [9] Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, [10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: [11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

TMK,

" I agree that God knows all there is to know.”

Regarding the future, what would be some things that God does not know? Now, I understand that God does not know impossible things such as what a circle with corners would look like. I’m not looking for specifics of course, because if we could know the specifics then we would know more than God. But just in general, theoretically, what would be some things that God has no knowledge of, at least at this current present time?

JFW,

" Again this (greek) concept of an all knowing deity whom controls everyone’s actions giving only the appearance of free will…”

I appreciate your response. While I still fail to see how the above description, while definitely not how God works, is even remotely a Greek concept of God. In fact, I don’t know of any Greek gods that are anything like this at all. I know of no Greek philosophers who believed the above statement. There are only two groups of people who I know who use the above statement: the hyper Calvinist, and the arminian claiming that anybody who is reformed is a hyper Calvinist.

Of course I’m not here to debate Arminianism versus calvinism, or to decide where exactly the Bible lands on that spectrum, if it lands there at all. The discussion we were having is about who our God is. This is a far more important topic, because what we don’t want to have happen is to discover that we don’t worship the same God. I honestly do want to avoid that accusation coming from me or coming from anyone else.

So I have a few questions. The first question is regarding the three Omnis. Do you believe that God is not everywhere present in all of creation? Generally, I’m merely asking the location and boundaries of God.

The second question is this: understanding that God is not going to desire to do something that makes absolutely no sense such as making a square circle, desiring to sin, or make a rock so heavy that he can’t lift it”” Do you believe that the Bible demonstrates a limit to the power of God?

The last question is this: are there any truths Past, present or future”” Future dealing specifically the end result of eternity future”” That God has not yet learned, does not currently know, or is unsure of exactly how they will pan out?

I am not trying to spring a trap on you, you’ve already declared that you don’t believe in omnipresent, omniscient, or omnipotence. I’m just trying to figure out what in the world you do believe about these things. Thank you in advance for answering these questions.

As discussed before, a person who holds to Open Theism says that the future does not exist *now*”” even for God. God has every possible fact and knows the heart of man and has all data available to Him, but He does not know the future because it simply does not exist now. Therefore this would be no different than saying God does not know non- existent persons. The reason I gave the somewhat simplistic example of the square circles is simple to show it is no assault in God’s omniscience to say he does not know impossible things. If the future does not exist NOW it is impossible to know it, even for God.

Now I realize it may sound like I hold to Open Theism. I admit I think it solves certain problems without denigrating God one whit if true. I am just not 100% convinced that the future does not exist now.

But I am convinced of one thing- we are not puppets and God is not a puppet master. Charnock’s view must ultimately lead to this conclusion.

TMK,

OK, thank you for your response. So I just wanna make sure I understand what you’re saying. You are suggesting that because the future has not yet occurred, and because God is bound by time, and because God is not Omni temporal, that there are specifics about the future which God does not in fact know. For instance, God does not know what the population of the earth is going to be six years from now. Maybe has a rough estimate, but not an exact count. Would you say that is a fairly accurate assessment?

Now that’s a profitable question... thank you for the opportunity to respond/reconcile 🙏🏻
"If God does not know the future then how were the old testament prophets able to prophesy/write down events before they happened? How does one reconcile this?”

What does the scriptures say...?

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

the hope is that the God ordained principle of reaping and sowing is made clear for it was Gods "plan” and He said He saw "it was good” -

9 For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the LORD.
10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
11 ((((For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.))))

again the hope is that this will begin to open the blinds regarding this matter...

FTR, I’m not suggesting that the Lord doesn’t know the future as a potential, obviously He does but it’s only when we also account for the principle of reaping and sowing does the truth get unveiled-
The Lord knows the end (fruit/wages)of a seed at the beginning (sowing) of said seed. He knows wether the seed was from Him or the world, He also knows/can see wether it was sown into His kingdom or into the world...

Nothing is hidden from the Lords sight , yes Amen!
But,... He turns His face away from iniquity-
Here again we see the contrasting of the potential future with the literal one, the contrasting of Gods foreknowledge of His plan/thoughts (literal) with the potential being based on wether we submit and yield to it in faith -

If this were not so, there would be no potential for repentance much less a need for grace ✝️

Hey Havok-

Yes you have summarized it rightly.

I realize that any discussion of time is deep and difficult and there are many theories about it.

CS Lewis in Mere Christianity basically opined that everything is "now” for God. Chris may have been saying something like this in his earlier post. He also said if you imagine time as a line drawn on a page running from past to future, then God is the whole page, or perhaps God is over and above the page. So in essence He does not see into the future to see you doing something a year from now””He simply sees you doing it NOW.

That helped me when I first read it years ago, it’s not perfect but it still helps because it spares free will.

"To say that God is omniscient is to say that He possesses perfect knowledge and therefore has no need to learn. But it is more: it is to say that God has never learned and cannot learn.

The scriptures declare that God has never learned from anyone. 'Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counselor hath taught Him? With who took He counsel, and who instructed Him, and taught Him in the path of judgment, and taught Him knowledge, and shewed to Him the way of understanding?' 'For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counselor?' These rhetorical questions put by the prophet Isaiah and the apostle Paul declare that God has never learned.

From there it is only a step to the conclusion that God cannot learn. Could God at any time or in any manner receive into His mind knowledge that He did not possess and had not possessed from eternity, He would be imperfect and less than Himself. To think of a God who must sit at the feet of a teacher, even though that teacher be an archangel or a seraph, is to think of someone other than the Most High God, maker of heaven and earth.

God knows instantly and effortlessly all matter and all matters, all mind and every mind, all spirit and all spirits, all being and every being, all creaturehood and all creatures, every plurality and all pluralities, all law and every law, all relations, all causes, all thoughts, all mysteries, all enigmas, all feeling, all desires, every unuttered secret, all thrones and dominions, all personalities, all thing visible and invisible in heaven and in earth, motion, space, time, life, death, good, evil, heaven, and hell." From "The Knowledge Of The Holy" by A.W. Tozer pp. 55,56

Those are even more profitable questions and as w/Platy I thank you for the opportunity to respond and we are in agreement regarding the seriousness of the matter at hand -

You wrote
" So I have a few questions. The first question is regarding the three Omnis. Do you believe that God is not everywhere present in all of creation? Generally, I’m merely asking the location and boundaries of God.

response;
as a potential, yes-
as a literal, no

The second question is this: understanding that God is not going to desire to do something that makes absolutely no sense such as making a square circle, desiring to sin, or make a rock so heavy that he can’t lift it”” Do you believe that the Bible demonstrates a limit to the power of God?

response;
yes without question

The last question is this: are there any truths Past, present or future”” Future dealing specifically the end result of eternity future”” That God has not yet learned, does not currently know, or is unsure of exactly how they will pan out?"

response;
no, but....
a. because "truth” is not a "thing” that is separate from who/what God is, any and all "truths” or "realities” apart from His deity are fictional and deception-
b. yes without question in that it’s still happening and forever will -
c. addendum;
Our perspective on time/eternity was also, necessarily compromised along with our understanding of God, as Eternity doesn’t exist apart from God... (eternity is more of a location than it is anything akin to a linear timeline)
which is to say that to focus the attention of our hearts intent upon God is to also be mindful of eternity and this will be evidenced by how we engage things in time... a good example of this in scripture is Jesus’s response to His friend Lazarus. Jesus well knew the deteriorating condition and accordingly His humanity desired to go and expediently provide remedy (as expressed in His mourning and weeping with Mary and the others) yet that was not His Fathers will, rather it was to wait- so we can see this being mindful of eternity because in this case the outcome was the same,... Lazarus lived, God received glory and Jesus was magnified/raised up🙏🏻

TMK,

As a matter of illustration, let me make one hundred percent sure that I understand your perception of how God works in the world. If you have ever watched the sport of curling, which occurs during the winter Olympics, you will notice that the entire team has a goal. Generally, the goal is to get the puck into a certain spot. Without touching the puck, the team successfully Affects everything around the puck, In order for the puck to reach its goal. In a similar way, I would venture to say, that you would liken God To a perfect curling team. His action and influence on the world, while not meticulous, will achieve the overall ending goal. There may be slight variations over the course of time, but by and large, God is going to have his way.

Regarding free will, a good illustration, but I think you would like, would be that our free will choices are like a single raindrop in a lake. It will cause some ripples, but overall it will not hurt the lake in any sort of way ”“ The lake being God’s overall plan.

This will be my last question like this, I am just trying to grasp what you believe. In general is my assessment correct?

JFW,

OK, thank you for your response. So from what I gather, it seems to me that you reject the classical view of the attributes of God. I don’t mean classical as first, I mean the Puritan version of the attributes of God, the reformed version of the attributes of God, or the Catholic version of the attributes of God ”“ Which and a lot of ways are similar, but there are some variations. Of course there would be some attributes that all those share that you would agree with, but as far as a system of theology you would probably reject them. Is that correct? If so, is there a system of theology proper, that generally you do agree with? It would seem to me that you aligned more maybe with the German schools of thought? But I don’t want to put words in your mouth.

I would prefer a man who is unable to fathom what God knows and whether he knows or determines the future, but lives in surrender to His will to the man who can give the correct answer and does not live a surrendered to God.

Narrowpath, is it too much to ask for both?

In 1 Samuel 23 when David fled to Keilah from Saul, David inquired of God as to whether Saul would pursue him, and whether the inhabitants of Keilah would betray him to Saul. God told him that both of these things would certainly happen. This shows that God could see one possible set of future events; and if He could see that, does it not follow that He can see all possible future events and timelines?

Havok-

I would say your assessment is pretty correct. I can’t say exactly correct because I am not sure 100% myself.

TMK,

While I don’t necessarily agree with your position, I am glad to have had this conversation with you, because it helps me to understand where you’re coming from a lot better.

I would say that our disagreement theologically really comes down to this: I think you believe God actively wills, decrees, and thinks through the passage of time in many aspects of his creation. Whereas, I hold the belief that God decreed everything in eternity past. This would explain why you and I have a slightly different understanding of how all this works together. I do not feel it would do as much good to discuss this particular issue without understanding the above statement. That way, if we wanted to, we could get down to the root of the issue. Of course we could save that for another time. Your position makes a whole lot more sense to me now. At the same time, I at least know for sure you’re not an open theist. That is good, because that leads to all kinds of craziness.

Ha! Well I can only testify regarding that which I witness 🤷🏽”â™‚️
Having said that, do I need a spiritual "walker”...?
No, for whatever reason, He has not required me to build one-

We love to explain things don’t we...?
It gives us a sense of control and we like that, it’s comforting to our fragile sensibility.
But our God, the one true and living God can only be accessed by faith and true faith,... saving faith defies explanation doesn’t it...?

The very fact that we build theological systems is the result of Greek/Roman influence... its mans attempt to "package” God do they can "sell" Him to people who don’t want Him - so He can be explained ....

Were there any "systems of theology” given by God in the Bible??
If so, why are we building them?
If not, why are we building them?
What the Bible gives us is testimony of witnesses, prophecy and revelation.
Administratively we receive doctrine, not the other way around ...
remember how they kept trying to "box” Jesus in asking "what doctrine is this?” Here again we see this influence already in action and understandably so, they have to be able to explain Him, but they couldn’t so they rejected Him.... they couldn’t put a bit into His mouth so they couldn’t control Him-

The God of the Bible in every instance defies explanation.
Just think of every instance where someone "saw” God or even heavenly visions.... Moses knew the Lord well and saw Him do astonishing miracles and must’ve had quite a high and accurate view of Him, yet when Moses saw but a glimpse from behind, he was all the more astonished and gave no commentary.
Or the fantastical visions of Ezekiels wheel, that is as far from any of our earthly concepts imaginable.
Or John, the one whom Jesus loved and was closer to Him than all the others,... even receiving a formal exchange from Jesus on the cross, "woman behold thy son, son behold thy mother” yet when he got a glimpse of Jesus in His Glory, he collapsed as unto death.
Again, the God of the Bible is far more than we can imagine but we can know Him ✝️

Recently (this year), while petitioning the Lord in supplication, He ministered to me saying, "If you want to see what I see, you have to look at what I’m looking at and call it what I call it”

This was/is a great blessing to me and I’ve found great rest in it 🙏🏻
As it has brought many things into focus and it’s open to anyone who will.

JFW,

Let me just shoot you straight: this conversation is fairly difficult to have with you. The reason why it’s difficult is because you will not answer anything I’m asking you directly. Instead, I get a lot of sideways answers. The reason why I ask for a system of theology is not so I can control you, God, or anything else. It is so I can have some kind of platform to understand your theology from. Because right now, you and I are not seeing anywhere close to Eye to eye. That is either because I’m not understanding your theology, or because your theology makes no sense. I am attempting to give you the benefit of the doubt.

You did not just read the Bible and come to the conclusion without any outside influence that Greek philosophy Influenced the modern church, has tainted our understanding of who God is, or has radically altered peoples understanding of theology. You came to those conclusions because you heard it, read it, or saw it from some other source outside of the Bible. You decided you agreed with it, and now that is a lens by which you view Christianity. This is how everybody works.

What I’m asking for is plain and simple answers. I’m not asking for anything more than that. I have been trying to follow your logic, your reasoning, and your explanations, but I am having a seriously difficult time doing so. Perhaps I have such a skewed view of what you’re saying, that it is difficult for me to grasp. That was what was happening between TMK and I. I was reading open theism into his theology, and was therefore confused by what he was saying. I have no problem saying I’m biased, but I try to recognize it and at least work through it. But again, I have no idea what in the world you are talking about.

A good place to start would be for you to demonstrate how the classical attributes of God as viewed by Puritans, the reformers, or classical Catholic theology has been influenced by Greek philosophy.

Ahhh ok well (for me) it wasn’t so much that I read or heard that Greek philosophy had influenced the Jews and Christians, it was more of f me noticing a gross inconsistency between what the Bible says and what (we) the modern church confess and do, (the practice of our faith).

This led me to search out a thing,... mostly if not exclusively in the early stages of searching and researching, did the Bible and early church history serve as the source text. Later on after amassing a significant number of inconsistencies, I sought to understand why... why did this happen and what is the solution to get us back to a purely Biblical (Hebraic) understanding of the person of God....

It was during this period of years that I discovered there were others that had noticed and searched out this same thing, so at that point I scanned their materials for anything I’d missed and/or to see if their were common conclusions/revelations. The one most compatible with my own findings (only discovering this a few years ago) was David Pawson, who later in life addressed the self-same observations publicly. This resulted in my reaching out to him personally, thanking him for his love of the truth and the faith he exhibited in the risk he took regarding his public address of the matter as it was an encouragement to me to press on and continue the work 🙏🏻
In this sense it’s more a reduction than a production, in that my aim was to strip away the cumulative layers of millennia of foreign (worldly) influence hoping to arrive at the bedrock of our faith, the truth in its purest form-
Today I’m only giving a testimony regarding these finds along with the Lords hand in assisting and disciplining me in this effort to know Him, the truth of His Spirit -
In that sense, I cannot give what I do not have, but such as I have, give i thee ✝️

Having said this, and not for the purpose of evading your inquiry (which I appreciate very much) if you will, allow me to pose a question here that after prayer and meditation yesterday/last night came up as a definitive point of reference that, if we can at least agree on this then there is opportunity to maintain unity as we look into this matter, searching out a thing -

According to the scriptures....Why is God going to sooo much trouble and grief at such great cost to Himself, what is He ultimately after and determined to achieve?
(once this came into focus, (for me) it was a definitive point of reference whereby all else could be measured in the light of His objective)

So rather than get down in the weeds and sort out the roots wether Greek, Babylonian, Egyptian, Roman, etc... of the foreign influences (there’ll be opportunity for that) we can be about our Fathers business and allow Him to focus our attention and by the light of His presence, see and simply enough behold the truth, whereby anything not of Him will come into sharp contrast with what is of Him ✝️

Ephesians 4:8-13 says, "To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.”

The purpose of everything, especially the salvation of the church in Jesus Christ, is so that all the universe may worship and glory in our God.

So a question I have for you: If somebody were to ask you, "just who is your God? What is he like?” How would you describe him?

//So a question I have for you: If somebody were to ask you, "just who is your God? What is he like?” How would you describe him?//

Hopefully without a lot of theological gobbledygook that the average person would have no idea what you are talking about.

I think the best bet is to describe Jesus who "is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.”

"I think the best bet is to describe Jesus..."

John 6

60Therefore many of his disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying! Who can listen to it?" 61But Jesus knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life. 64But there are some of you who don't believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who didn't believe, and who it was who would betray him. 65He said, "For this cause have I said to you that no one can come to me, unless it is given to him by my Father."

John 21

15So when they had eaten their breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I have affection for you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." 16He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I have affection for you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." 17He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you have affection for me?" Peter was grieved because he asked him the third time, "Do you have affection for me?" He said to him, "Lord, you know everything. You know that I have affection for you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.

Yes Amen to Ephesians 4
....but why?
Why is the God of the Bible doing all this, what does the Bible say about Gods purpose for saving us,... which is to say, to what ends or what does God want to do (is doing) with all these saints that He saved, sanctified, purified, and made Holy?

The Bible is clear on this from beginning to end 🙏🏻

"So a question I have for you: If somebody were to ask you, "just who is your God? What is he like?” How would you describe him?”

The Holy one of Israel, LORD of Lords, KING of Kings, the Father of my Lord and savior Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, who Himself became the mediator of a new covenant whereby His Holy Spirit is given unto me to carry out the administration of the covenant wherewith I presently stand because of a promise this self same God, my God, gave to Abraham because he believed, had faith and obeyed 🙏🏻

This ☝🏼God, the creator of all things both seen and unseen is first and foremost Holy, and He alone is Holy and yet He is my Father, my teacher, my prophet and my priest..... my best friend, my closest confidant, my comforter.... my commanding officer, my light in the darkness, my boss at work... He is the Lord of me and He keeps me by disciplining and correcting me, He opens His word to me, He baptized me with His Spirit, He opens my eyes to see the hurts and pains of others, the sin and deception and He puts His words in my mouth to speak and hope in my hands to touch, He burdens my heart and compels me to pray, He gives me armor and a sword and teaches me to use them, He gives me rest when I am weary, He wakes me early (while it’s still night) and He ministers to me, He teaches me to intercede on behalf of the oppressed, He teaches me to search out a thing, He teaches me to minister, to preach, to prophecy.... He turns me from iniquity, He uses me to minister His word, He argues with me, He wrestles with me, He blesses me, He fills me with awe and wonder with just a word, He feeds me, He protects me, He gave me a covering, He is my fortress, He is merciful to me, He is my peace, He is my joy, He is my strength, my life, my hope, my salvation... He gives me hope, He gives me grace, He equips me, He is my sword and shield, He gave me a wife and children, a heritage, He teaches me to love, He gave me His love for His Son and we have fellowship and are in communion... He made me to be in His Son at His right hand in Heaven, He is patient with me, He is kind to me, and in His dealings with me, He teaches and demonstrates how He requires me to act. He leads me, me to others and others to me, He tries and tests and refines me, He broke me... He walks with me and He talks with me, He gives me rest, He shares His grief with me, He reveals His will to me, He leads me in the path of righteousness, He gave me a measure of faith that I may do business with Him and thereby partake of His divine nature purchasing from Him refined gold, indeed my God is rich in mercy, He is supernatural, He is a God of miracles, He creates and He destroys, He both gives life and He is the Judge of all the world. He has a people, peculiar as they are, He is not ashamed to call them His own...

Would you like to meet Him ?🤷🏽”â™‚️

Thanks, JFW.

You largely describe God in a relational way, specifically how he relates with you. Which is fine, because most people do that as well. In fact, I think it rather important To understand that any quality that we possess that is good is infinitely more present in God. That is what it means to be made in his image.

TMK wrote,

"Open Theism says that the future does not exist *now*”” even for God. God has every possible fact and knows the heart of man and has all data available to Him, but He does not know the future because it simply does not exist now. Therefore this would be no different than saying God does not know non- existent persons."

Open theists have made a god(aka idol) in their own image -

https://www.onepagebiblesummary.com/pad/tc_pad_05.php

//Open theists have made a god(aka idol) in their own image//

No, they believe that God has knowledge of all reality, but that the future is not part of reality. Of course the *concept* of the future is real (eg what will America look like 20 years from now?) but they would deny the reality of an America 20 years in the future that exists *now*.

They can answer your Cyrus objection if you are inclined to look.

Have you had the opportunity to consider the question of what the God of the Bible is doing (purpose of salvation), to what ends ?

JFW,

It depends on the perspective that you’re asking from. God’s purpose for all of this for himself is the praise of his glory. And we get to know him and love him and be with him for all eternity.

Todd wrote,

"They can answer your Cyrus objection if you are inclined to look."

I don't doubt that they can! Just as I don't doubt that the democrats, deconstructionists, atheists, infanticider's , BLM'ers, transgender's, demons, and even satan can answer objections.

Again, you and your companions(open theists) make God a little above the humans He created.

I pray that God would put His fear in you! (Genesis 31:42)

Savannah,

I do not believe that TMK isn’t open theist. The reason why I say this is because he does believe in the deterministic end, but the means by which that end is achieved are not meticulously determined. This would put him squarely in Armenian territory. It is a position I don’t agree with, and it does have some interesting implications that can lead to heresies, but it doesn’t always have to. In fact, most of my friends are Armenian, most southern Baptist are also Armenian. While I am reformed in my persuasion, classical arminianism is more closely related to reformed theology than hyper Calvinism or any other theological system.

It is markedly different. But by and large it is not a heretical system. It Can be when coupled with other poor theological understandings, but it does not have to be.

Open theism however teaches that God is learning, teaches that there are many possible futures, teaches that God knows all possible futures, and teaches that God is not certain of the end result of anyone of them. There are different brands of open theism, and they do not all teach the same thing. This is because it is a new doctrine, and people are writing it as we speak. I do believe open theism is a heresy. But that is because God has decreed everything.

Both Open theists and traditionalists believe that God is omniscient. God always knows everything. The question is what that reality contains, and whether possibilities are real.

The debate is over the nature of the future, not God’s knowledge. Classical theists like to frame it as an argument over the extent and nature of God’s knowledge because they like to say that Open theists don’t believe God knows everything, which is an outright untruth. That is what savannah is doing because it’s easier to mischaracterize than to deal with it honestly.

To repeat, open theists believe that God always knows everything, just like traditional theists. This is not heretical in the least. Quite frankly, I have no idea whether reality includes a future that exists *now* and neither do y’all.

Well yes it is a matter of perspective insofar as our person is concerned but what does the scriptures have to say about Gods purpose regarding those whom were foreknown and predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ ?

TMK,

There are multiple brands of open theists. Since this is a relatively new doctrine, and not something that’s traditionally been taught, there is a wide variety of teaching about it. While my description certainly doesn’t characterize every open theist, it does characterize some. I don’t have so much of a problem with saying with the future is not now. Especially from our perspective. However, I do not have to fight to preserve free will. My will is not that free. I can’t will things into existence, I cannot will a future event, I cannot even make one hair on my own head grow slightly faster . I cannot control when I am tempted, nor can I control what my day-to-day life is like in any meticulous sort of way. My will it’s just not that free. There are things that I can do, but I control none of the inputs, in many of the outputs of my life are not exactly the way I would hope that they would be, despite my best efforts.

Again, I have no problem saying that the future is not now. However, the intent and the resulting theology that comes with that statement in the hands of some is dangerous. There are open theorists who believe that God does not know everything, and there are some who believe that God cannot determine the end. For many open theists God is as clueless as we are.

JFW,

It would be easier if you just get to the point. If anyone asked me this question I would give them the exact answer that I gave you. If that answer is not satisfactory then please enlighten me.

Well it’s not that the answer of Ephesians 4 was/is wrong anymore than Romans 12, etc... would be, yet there is more to the story, to Gods plan for those who love Him and obey Him -

According to scripture, God intends to build for Himself, a kingdom of priests 🙏🏻

This began to first be given to Israel, and we were grafted in (Romans 11) to the commonwealth of their inheritance, now being made "Jews” not after the circumcision of the flesh but of the heart-
Exodus 19;
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a ((kingdom of priests, and an holy nation)). These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Isaiah 61;
6a But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God

Isaiah 66;
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

1 Peter 2;
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Revelation 1:
6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father””to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen

Revelation 5:
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.

Revelation 20:
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Hebrews 6;
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 7:
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
(Ps. 110:4”Š)
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Hebrews 8:
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
(Jer. 31:31-34”Š)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

I submit to you for your prayerful consideration 🙏🏻

\t

//There are open theorists who believe that God does not know everything, and there are some who believe that God cannot determine the end. For many open theists God is as clueless as we are.//

I’ll take your word for it- I haven’t come across that brand but I concede there are likely different degrees of open theists just like there are different degrees of Calvinists.

That most certainly is a benefit of salvation in Christ: he has made us to be kings and priests. It is a wonderful blessing we have in Christ.

So how does this play into the OP? I understand the priesthood of all believers, but how does that fit in with this conversation?

Primarily it serves as a unifying principle which instantly does away with all denominations/ man made divisions... squarely putting us to task in this race we’re running. Allowing the Lord to actually be the Head of His church would be a radical departure from its current structure where it serves the state administration.

Further to the point of the OP-
I’m submitting to you that what Paul prophecies in Acts 20 regarding the church, came to pass and once "they” (grievous, perverse) had the state kill off all the mature disciple makers then a truce was made with the newborn Christians and they were officially adopted and protected by the state.
So at the time this had become normalized (400’s) the concept of God that was taught was entirely under the control of those whom taught it, themselves being under the direction of the state. Since then, the church spread around the world as a forward operation of an imperial expansion.
Can and did God work in this,..? Yes but that doesn’t make it His plan anymore than the first century Jews were following Gods plan,... they were just doing their own will, in Gods name.... we are doing the exact same thing,... and I’m submitting to you that the reason is our core conception, the one taught in seminary’s and pulpits is not consistent with the God of the Bible as He reveals Himself in His word””full stop

I’m equally submitting to you that once the knowledge of God, the fear of God is restored to His church, she will repent and return to her first love.

Our objective n being conformed into the image of Christ is to become a priest of God offering up spiritual sacrifices- this becomes a plumb line to measure and test ourselves, wether we be in the faith-
It also provides character to the context...and if we will accept it a mantle-
All priesthood requires a yoke and that serves as a mantle as it were. This yoke is the means of Gods grace, we accept His yoke and He directs our steps. This conscription is itself compulsory to the cause of Christ.
Yet it is dependent on an agreed objective- if we can do that then we can actually begin to fulfill the great commission and train up proper priests that they may run and not grow weary.

Instead, today the church openly uses psychological manipulation, promoting self help group therapy all while sending their kids on church funded work/vacations to honeymoon destinations for staff and children so a board member can check off a box stating missions had been planed, funded, carried out and deemed successful🤷🏽”â™‚️ Meanwhile the current iteration of the "depraved and crooked generation” is also doing missions...
in our schools and churches teaching and demonstrating filthiness and depravity all while dressed like a sort of clown and encouraging our children to take part-

When someone in the modern age comes to church they are not made disciples of Christ, at least not the Jesus of the Bible, nor are they yoked with the weight of responsibility, having counted the cost of their enlistment-
begin their priestly training... no we make converts to our local assembly and just try to keep them fat and happy, yet totally devoid of any divine directive much less responsibility, so we have a weak, impotent church itself plagued with more problems than it can manage with all the money and marketing in the world,... you can’t fake till you make it 🤷🏽”â™‚️

If this continues without repentance, you know God will judge His church and is rather not see that happen in her current state, so to put my money where my mouth is, I’m hoping to find others who see these problems in and with the church, being burdened by them, to take up this mantle, this cross and bear it that the gates of hell not prevail against Christ’s church.

I’d be remiss if there is failure in reminding us that this degree of corruption is happening on our watch,... does anyone honestly believe we are gonna get a pass on this .. can we give an honest testimony before the throne that we exhausted ourselves to the ends of His declared will ...

36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

\t

JFW,

While I sympathize with what you were saying, and I very much understand the things that you see in many churches, I think we want to be very, very careful when taking such a wide swat at the entire church. I go to a church and am a Sunday school teacher, discipling young men and helping them walk in the faith. I have gone to other churches who do this. I have seen biblical churches being led by solid men, who are affecting change. But I am not going to be judged by what the goats are doing. I’m going to be judged by my life And how I teach. I am not perfect, but I do belong to the Lord.

Fortunately, the theology in question existed far before 400 A.D.. In fact, it existed before the creation of the world. God himself has stated in many places in his scripture who he is. I am a priest of that God. God has declared the end from the beginning. He challenged the false gods to predict the future if they knew it. They could not because they were not him.

Again, I do sympathize with what you’re saying about the church, but giving a list of problems with the church, giving vague semi historical information, avoiding any actual specific details about the influence of Greek thought and philosophy on our modern conception of God, and using all of that to justify your arguments will not get you anywhere. I want you to know that I spent several hours listening to David Pawson. He did exactly the same thing: he listed some legitimate problems, but he juxtaposed those problems with completely unrelated somewhat historical facts. He blamed the problem on Gnosticism, but failed to demonstrate just how Gnosticism affected anything.

I would suggest that the potential Greek influence on Christian thought is a worthy discussion, but if we’re not willing to get into specifics, then it’s fruitless. I suggest if we would like to carry this conversation forward, we need to start a new thread. If you would like to do that I will be happy to join it and have a discussion.

Have you listened to "degreecing the Church” by David Pawson, it’s more than blaming Gnosticism.
Also this may be of help in more succinctly detailing the aspects of our discussion- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I5QDpyk4yZw

Regarding the Greek influence, it was noted that you took particular exception/interest in that fact but it is only one of several foreign influences, including but not limited to Judaism, Babylonian, Egyptian etc... all clearly illustrated in the body of scripture. At the end of the day, we live in western civilization with itself being built upon and patterned after Greco-Roman philosophy from its political structure to its social practices with it all being based on their (not Hebrew) conception of God- which is to say they didn’t repent and convert to the God of the Bible, rather they converted the God of the Bible to their preexisting structure, adopting and adapting to accommodate and expand their capacity to influence and ultimately control the "official” (state accredited) context and subsequent function of the "church” this continues to this day as we function not under the administration of Holy Spirit but under a far more democratic (Greek) apparatus where elected/appointed board members vote on issues- this is nowhere found in scripture.

Likewise I often, when discussing such matters, get the same response you offer... "not my church, we follow the Bible” (I get that allot) and it’s not to say that there aren’t a few churches scattered amongst the waste that at least try to do so, but they are weakened and ultimately not very profitable regarding the cause of Christ here some 2000yrs later.

An example of this could be illustrated in the following mandate and our all but ignoring it from an unbelieving position itself lacking the faith, the unction necessary to obtain a remedy, namely mercy-

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him

Is this the common practice of your assembly ?
Or do most of your congregation appeal to the world’s remedy?

Likewise do the majority of your congregation actually and in truth, "seek ye first the Kingdom and it’s righteousness” allowing the Lord to supply their needs to that ends,... or do they go to work and live by the fruit of their own labors ?
Do they understand what their part/purpose in the Kingdom is?
Do they accept the commission of priesthood?
Does the authority of God abide with them?

Is the outreach done by your assembly being done in power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit or is it more a humanism dressed in a Jesus t-shirt, covered over in Christianese ?

You see, what is being suggested a that we have accepted a standard far beneath the Biblical one provided, which allows us to achieve our goals yet leave Gods objectives unfulfilled🤷🏽”â™‚️

Unfortunately, I think this conversation is going to continue in circles. So, I will end our discussion here. Originally I had a much longer post than this but I think it’s unnecessary.

The following prophecy lays to rest the blasphemy of Open Theism;

1 Kings 13:1,2

"At the LORD's command a prophet from Judah went to Bethel and arrived there as Jeroboam stood at the altar to offer the sacrifice. Following the LORD's command, the prophet denounced the altar: "O altar, altar, this is what the LORD says: A child, whose name will be Josiah, will be born to the family of David. He will slaughter on you the priests serving at the pagan altars who offer sacrifices on you, and he will burn human bones on you.”

Behold, a child shall be born (vs. 2)
Josiah was born in 648BC. About 350 years after this prophecy.

"This prophecy is the more wonderful, because it foretels of what family the child should spring, and what should be his name; and in the accomplishment of it we see the absolute certainty of God’s providence and foreknowledge, even in the most contingent things. For the particulars here mentioned, namely, the having a child, and the giving it this name, were in themselves things as uncertain, dependent on man’s will, and contingent as any events can be: and yet God exactly foretold them, and they came to pass accordingly. God therefore can foresee how the will of man, and of numbers of men, whose wills are dependant on each other, will be influenced in all possible circumstances, and that for ages to come; or, he can certainly and effectually, and yet without infringing or violating man’s liberty, overrule his will which way he pleaseth; otherwise it was possible this prediction might have been false, which it would be blasphemy to assert." (Benson)

About 360 years later this prophecy was fulfilled by the child Josiah;

2 Kings 23:15-20

"Furthermore, the altar that was at Bethel and the high place which Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel sin, had made, even that altar and the high place he broke down. Then he demolished its stones, ground them to dust, and burned the Asherah. Now when Josiah turned, he saw the graves that were there on the mountain, and he sent and took the bones from the graves and burned them on the altar and defiled it according to the word of the LORD which the man of God proclaimed, who proclaimed these things.Then he said, "What is this monument that I see?” And the men of the city told him, "It is the grave of the man of God who came from Judah and proclaimed these things which you have done against the altar of Bethel.” He said, "Let him alone; let no one disturb his bones.” So they left his bones undisturbed with the bones of the prophet who came from Samaria. Josiah also removed all the houses of the high places which were in the cities of Samaria, which the kings of Israel had made provoking the LORD; and he did to them just as he had done in Bethel. All the priests of the high places who were there he slaughtered on the altars and burned human bones on them; then he returned to Jerusalem."

Consider...and repent of your idolatry and blasphemy, all ye who defend, promote, endorse or teach this damnable heresy.

It’s not an "all or nothing” proposition savannah. If God wants to do something He certainly has the power to do it.

Open theists, at least the ones I am familiar with, agree that some of the future is settled. In your example, if God ordains that he will take a strike at idolatry via a king named Josiah, he obviously has the power to bring that to pass. However it does not follow that therefore ALL the future is set in stone NOW.

Todd wrote,

"Open theists, at least the ones I am familiar with, agree that some of the future is settled."
_______________________

It's certainly very thoughtful and kind of them to allow God to settle some of the future. I guess they're the arbiters of what is and what isn't settled.

Todd wrote,

"However it does not follow that therefore ALL the future is set in stone NOW."
__________________

Again Todd, thanks so much for letting God and myself know this. You seem to have quite the handle on some higher knowledge and on what can happen in the future or what cannot happen in the future. We all may have been going to the wrong Person for answers. We all need to get contact numbers for you and the ones you're familiar with.

"KNOWN unto GOD are ALL HIS WORKS FROM ETERNITY."
Acts 15:18

"Much of the difficulty in regard to this doctrine is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' in His mind. It is an eternal 'now.' He is 'the high and lofty One that inhabits eternity,' Is. 57:15. 'A thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.' Ps. 90:4. Hence the events which we see coming to pass in time are only the events which He appointed and set before Him from eternity. Time is a property of the finite creation and is objective to God. He is above it and see it, but is not conditioned by it. He is also independent of space, which is another property of the finite creation. Just as He sees at one glance an road leading from New York to San Francisco, while w see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance. When we realize that the complete process of history is before Him as an eternal 'now,' and that He is the Creator of all finite existence, the doctrine at least becomes an easier doctrine.

"In the eternal ages back of the creation there could not have been any certainty as to future events unless God had formed a decree in regard to them. Events pass from the category of things that may or may not be, to that of things that shall certainly be, or from possibility to fruition, only when God passes a decree to that effect. This fixity or certainty could have had it ground in nothing outside of the divine Mind, for in eternity nothing else existed. Says Dr. R. L. Dabney: 'The only way in which any object can by any possibility have passed from God's vision of the possible into His foreknowledge of the actual, is by His purposing to effectuate it Himself, or intentionally and purposely to permit its effectuation by some other agent whom He expressly purposed to bring into existence. This is clear from this fact. An effect conceived in posse only raises into actuality by virtue of an efficient cause or causes. When God was looking forward from the point of view of His original infinite prescience, there was but one cause, Himself. If any other cause or agent is ever to arise, it must be by God's agency. If effects are embraced in God's infinite prescience, which these other agents are to produce, still, in willing these other agents into existence, with infinite prescience, God did virtually will into existence, or purpose, all the effects of which they were to be efficients.'

"And to the same effect the Baptist theologian, Dr. A. H. Strong, who for a number of years was President and Professor in the Rochester Theological Seminary, writes: 'In eternity there could have been no cause of the future existence of the universe, outside of God Himself, since no being existed but God Himself. In eternity God foresaw that the creation of the world and the institution of its laws would make certain its actual history event to the most insignificant details. But God degreed to create and to institute these laws. In so degreeing He necessarily decreed all that was to come. In fine, God foresaw the future events of the universe as certain, because He had decreed to create; but this determination to create involved also a determination of all the actual results of that creation; or, in other words, God decreed those results.' ( L. Boettner)

You can be right in doctrine and wrong in tone and attitude, and you can be off in doctrine and still show godly character.

I find the tone in which some here propage their arguments here quite repulsive. Can we not die to our right to be right like Christ when he was condemned?

Proverbs 20:3 It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

I find this conversation highly interesting. Though it is noted that many individuals "conformed" to Christian like beliefs to avoid persecution and death in the days after Christianity was accepted and into the dark ages, that had no bearing on the word of God. The word of God was written, by the power of the Holy Spirit by about a hundred men hundreds of years before. Similarly, even the influences around the writers of the scriptures would not have been affected in their writings by the cultures around them. Was the style dependent on the cultures, yes I'm sure. But you have to remember, this is the word of God. Not Man.

On the idea of living in faith, though I see where you're coming from JFW, not everyone is called to by a pastor or an evangelist. We are a priesthood of believers as followers of Christ. But as the measure of the grace he provided is given that does not translate to everyone serving in vocational ministry. Some are gifted with technical skills, the ability to work with their hands, and the ability to heal others, all necessary needs for both society and the body of Christ. It is not lack of trusting God, but following his word in the book of the Proverbs to be not like the sluggard but to work hard for the provision of yourself and your family.

If you want to make the case that going out and working is not trusting God, then explain to me why God charged Adam to take care of the Garden, or why He didn't reprimand the Hebrews for planting crops in their agrarian society instead of worshiping at the temple 24/7. Did they have the year of Jubilee and the Sabbath, yes. But they still went out and worked. Just because you use conventional wisdom doesn't mean you have turned away from trusting Christ. For a few examples: Money isn't the issue, the love of money is. We are not told to never ride a horse, but to not trust in the strength of Chariots. Etc.

Also, if that doesn't make sense it's because I was responding to a MUCH earlier post. XD I didn't realize you couldn't respond out of order.

There was no intention on my part to suggest that we (all) should not work, and produce goods and services.

The life of faith is a constant,... it’s not like we can turn it on or off-
We are His ambassadors or we are not,... it’s a full time, all the time, every time position.
When the scriptures speak of this kingdom of priests, the priestly service that we administer isn’t separate from our daily lives at both work and home and whatever other affiliations we may have, rather whatever position, voice, authority, influence or ability that we may have are absolutely yielded to His sovereignty without exception. Which is to say that we intentionally abide or remain mindful of His right and desire to use us (His body) to do His work,... His work is to offer up spiritual sacrifices to which He gave His literal body (as example) and fully intends to do so with His body (of believers). This yoke that Jesus spoke of, is what allows us to be conformed into His image, as it is a means to align and pace us with Himself. And yes, this is through faith- and is characterized by peace.

(in my understanding)
We are literally competing, a race as Paul puts it, to finish well enough to get a "seat” at His table, ruling and reigning with Christ - those whom will be are the "kingdom of priests” (limited number). These are judged by Christ, wether they be fit and profitable (10 talents is a picture)
The world, whose "god” is Lucifer, will be judged by God the Father-
This is very important because the gentiles that make it in, will be included in the inheritance of the commonwealth of Israel - (the number of gentiles is also limited) and these will rule and reign with Christ for the 1000 years- this inheritance is marked out in scripture- the scriptures give specific locations by name regarding this, and each location/inheritance is related to the function of that portion of the "body” which during this 1000yrs will be the literal governing body under Christ’s headship on earth.

If your interested you can find details of this in Ezekiel 47 and if you read and research carefully you’ll find how a particular location/inheritance refers back to Melchizedek -
.

Sorry, brother Fletcher, my previous post was not directed at you.

no worries, no offense was taken :)