The Bait of Satan - Offence

Has anybody read the book "The Bait of Satan" by John Bevere?It really helped me so much through a tough time recently and I know many people here would benifit from it.Im going to go though it again, and Im thinking of posting what I get out of it up here...Has anyone read it already? Is anyone interested?

Is anyone interested?yea, please share your thoughts on this, maybe i can find it at the bookstore nearby!

Yes, coops, I'm interested in hearing about what you learned. I have this book and have heard great things about it, but I haven't gotten around to reading it yet myself.

Well sorry I didnt post anything for the past few days, I had exams so didn't have time. (Exams went pretty good!) Anyway, I have started to re-read the book because it was so good, and did chapter one this morning. I just wanted to share some things I got out of it for anyone who was interested... Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him." And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.” (Luke 17:3-5)The first thing that hit me was: after all the miracles, the healings, the water into wine, the storm etc: the thing that prompts them to ask for more faith is their need to not hold onto offense! Also I saw that offense is a very real and valid thing to be addressing in my life, and how much we need to avoid offedning people (where possible). So it's not really a question of a Christian being offended, it's really a question of "What is your response?" Does that make sense?Actually I might as well go deeper into the response thing:"For it is not an enemy who reproaches me; Then I could bear it. Nor is it one who hates me who has exalted himself against me; Then I could hide from him. But it was you, a man my equal, My companion and my acquaintance. We took sweet counsel together, And walked to the house of God in the throng. " I know for myself (especially lately) that the most hurt comes when someone close to you offends you. Does it ring a bell for anyone else?The second thing that was really interesting was this: It says that the greek work for "offend" used in the above passage ("skandalon"), originally refered to the part of a trap to which you attach your bait. So i guess it's that sensitive part on a mouse trap etc... and I guess that means that offence is much like a trap (or part of it anyway). And thats why Paul said to Timothy: "And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will." (2 Tim 2:24-26)Would it be safe to say that when someone is offended, they are ensared into the devil's will (that offence and dis-unity would occur)?The next thing that stood out to me cut deeply. That is, often offence is cloaked with pride. Its probably because the enemy doesn't want your true condition to be shown (or else it will be dealt with faster). That was definately close to home for me. Ive been offended many times and have has alot of people come up to me "Are you ok?", "I'd be so annoyed", "They had no right", etc and I'd say "No, Im not offended", knowing it was wrong. The problem for me (and the book also pointed it out) was that pride made me feel like a victim. It also slowed down forgiveness because I felt so wronged. I tried to justify myself, and was really actually decieved. Now Bevere pointed something out here that I never noticed, even though it started me in the face: To be free, we have to "buy God's gold" (Rev 3:18)He pointed out that gold was pure and soft, like our hearts should be. But that gold can become hard when an another substance enters the mixture. It becomes more of an alloy... and isn't pure. He likened one of these metals that could enter, to deception about our offence. So how do we break free from the deception? "buy God's gold" (Rev 3:18) I guess the meaning here was that God's gold is pure and refined. But then again, the refining could hurt quite a bit: Isiah 48:10 "Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction." and 1 Peter 1:6-7 "In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,"So if it takes that refining process: So be it. Anything to rid ourselves of deception. I guess the process would humble you and strip away our pride, then your offence would be revealed. "Buy God's gold...and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see." (Rev 3:18) See what? Our heart's true condition: Alloyed and annoyed!Only then can we "be zealous and repent", which is his next command in Rev 3:19: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. [refine?] [b]Therefore be zealous and repent."And thats what I got out of chapter one. What do you think?

is anybody interested in me posting more?

coops,I enjoyed your post. But if I'm the only one whose interested it might not be worth it for you to continue. Thanks for sharing what you've learned so far.

coops wrote:is anybody interested in me posting more?yea bro please :-)thanks for sharing and i agree with Todd! post some more, i'm looking forward to that!be blessed!William

This morning I read chapter 2, heres what I got..."And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved." Mt 24:10-13...Many times we might reach out with the best intentions and with love to someone, and they respond in a way that hurts and offends us, so eventually we just give up (is this familiar to anyone?)..."For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart." Gal 6:8-9...but we are called to HAVE FAITH! Faith that when love is returned as offence, it doesn't mean failure, but that it's not the right season. So do we stop? No... because you cant sow and reap in the same season! :-) Faith allows us to take this seriously:"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?" Mat 5:44-47Does anyone here feel like this is or has been them?I know for myself, I have pulled out of things because it hurt too much. I tried to reach out in love but I just got attacked. The problem was, the other person was offended too (by miscommunication). So I got to this problem:"A brother offended is harder to win than a strong city, And contentions are like the bars of a castle." Prov 18:19I had walls too, to keep me from getting hurt. All the focus was on what was inside those walls (me), and how to not injure that. They were like strongholds:"For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ" 2 Cor 10:4-5For myself, I had scripture to back everything I said. Theologically I was right. I even checked it with many here on the forum, and didnt get one person tell me otherwise. But what I didn't latch on to was this: without love, it is a destructive and puffed up legalism. (1 Cor 8:1-3).I reached out in love to this person, but got harsh attacks back. I then put up walls to avoid hurt, and pulled out the word to justify myself. My love stayed for a while, but eventually offence ruled. As a result, I ended up justifying myself, rather than repenting from my offence and waxing love. Am I alone?I was, and I think many in Christian communities are: "always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth." 2 Tim 3:7Its scary to see how "many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another". Betrayal happens when one believer seeks his own protection, at the expense of another. So it goes something like this: offence leads to betrayal which leads to hate (a lack of love). Now, knowing the path offence leads me down, it is scary: "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him." 1 John 3:15So would it be safe to say, offence is a trap that leads you down a path of sin? It's fatal!Eternal life is to follow Christ:"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you," Matt 5:44"Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself." Philippians 2:3"For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: “ Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth”; who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously" 1 Peter 2:21-23And thats what I got today...

It's an excellant book and should be required reading for all bible students and anyone in church leadership including all pastors. I highly recommend it. I believe John Bever has some mp3 sermons on this site also.

Oh wow he is here!John Bevere sermonsyeah I considered him to be a prophet to our day, very uncomprimising and insightful. read a book once that said any preacher who does not pray at least two hours a day isn't worth a dime (i think it was ravenhill?) so he prayed at least 2 ever since... and it shows in his teaching...ill try and write down some more thoughts from the next chapter tomorrow

He has another book on false prophets in the church which also is very good. He seems to have a more balanced approach than most people do. God bless , Bait of satan is a very needed topic especially on these boards where sometimes we get into a little heated discussions and there are occassions for taking offense at what someone else has wrote or even replied to .

He seems to have a more balanced approach than most people do Yeah I remember listening to his sermons when he was talking about holiness. It was such a radical call, but he offered grace along with it...Anyway I read another chaper today of The Bait of Satan for anyone whos interested (?), ill post my thoughts...The big question today was: "If you were genuiney mistreated, do you have the right to be offended?" The answer was in Genisis 37-48, in the life of Joseph...Bevere talked about how Joseph's dream turned into a nightmare, as he was sold by his own brothers into slavery. Apparently in those days, for him it was the closest thing you could get to actually being dead. In fact, most would understand if he wish he did wish that, at least he wouldnt know what he could have become...We know the story, but he didn't... and he goes and serves faithfully! He could be holding bitterness and grudges and be a rebellious slave, after all he has nothing to live for now... After faithful service, he is then thrown into prison for something he didn't do. Apparently the prison is not like today. They have no light and are dark and damp, and in the psalms it says Joseph was in chains. So he was pretty much left there for dead.Now is the time to be offended at his master, his master's wife, his brothers... how far is he from God's dream?! Now he could be offended at God. Then along comes the cup bearer who forgets him. He understood that is he devil could destroy us, he would have along time ago.He is left for two years, forgotten... offended? Nope! He eventually is put into the power God had promised. Finally his brothers came for help. If he has any offence he could have carried out any plan he liked then. Instead he gave them grain free of charge, and eventually gave them the bast land in Egypt!"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you" Mat 5:44Without Jesus's words, he did it anyway!"But now, do not therefore be grieved or angry with yourselves because you sold me here; for God sent me before you to preserve life. For these two years the famine has been in the land, and there are still five years in which there will be neither plowing nor harvesting. And God sent me before you to preserve a posterity for you in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. So now it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt." Gen 45:5-8 (emphasis mine!)So it was God... He wasn't angry any anyone, he was thankful to God! He gave God the glory!So being free from offence will keep us in God's will..."No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it 1 Cor 10:13 (emphasis mine!)He has been there before, and has the way of escape. I don't need to fall into offence, I can escape. I can resist the devil and he will flee! (James 4:7)Reading all that about Joseph really humbles me...anyway thats what i got out of today, i hope somebody enjoys it :-) God bless

I read this Book many years ago, and Indeed it is a very good book.

GrannieAnnie wrote:O.K., I asked a brother here yesterday, where's coops been ?Hey coops, where are you ? You haven't posted since 8/21 I think it says.Yoooo-hoooo !AnnieHi Annie!yea he has been off for awhile, i spoke with him lately, he is doing fine :-) and he will be back don't worry!William

Coops,Interesting thread...I may have to go buy the book. You wrote: I reached out in love to this person, but got harsh attacks back. I then put up walls to avoid hurt, and pulled out the word to justify myself. My love stayed for a while, but eventually offence ruled. As a result, I ended up justifying myself, rather than repenting from my offence and waxing love. Am I alone?You asked a very good question. I am troubled by an encounter where the Holy Spirit told me to confront a sister who was known to lie and was able to prove the things she said were lies - intentional or not, I never did learn. But she had her defenders from the same church. These were women I had trusted. Later when confronted with the things they said, they denied it. Now can you tell me how to deal with it? Trust could easily be restored if they would only admit it, but they refuse to do so, now where does that put me? I have tried to get outside help but they do not want to deal with it, telling me our friendships will likely never be the same again. I beg to difer on that..they could. What would you suggest? ginnyrose

ginnierose:You asked a very good question. I am troubled by an encounter where the Holy Spirit told me to confront a sister who was known to lie and was able to prove the things she said were lies - intentional or not, I never did learn. But she had her defenders from the same church. These were women I had trusted. Later when confronted with the things they said, they denied it. Now can you tell me how to deal with it? Trust could easily be restored if they would only admit it, but they refuse to do so, now where does that put me? I have tried to get outside help but they do not want to deal with it, telling me our friendships will likely never be the same again. I beg to difer on that..they could. What would you suggest? Love them anyways, it's obvious that they mean alot to you, that in your heart of hearts you desire to have a relationship with them. Let Go and Let God... You also mentioned that the lady was known to lie and that she could prove it. How is this possible, it's either the truth or it's a lie. Have you been obidient to the Holy Spirit when he told you to approach her?GrannieAnnnieGinnyrose, I'm sure glad you posed your question directly to coops, because, God Help me (amen), I can handle slaps in the face, and things way beyond that and forgive ... but there's something about being "lied to", that though I can cool off from it and feel forgiveness ... I still tend to back off from that person after that.Not that I wouldn't go help them, if they needed anything ... but "trust" between two people, to me, seems to be the 'foundation' of a relationship. I know with "brethren", the LORD is the "foundation", but what I mean is, in 'relationships' of any kind, it needs to be built on trust. At least it helps .It does help "TRUST" is vitally important in anykind of relationship. How can you both back away and help at the same time? Obviously your Love is much greater then your inward struggles.This is what you do;Phillipians 4:8 -- Finally, brethern, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy-MEDIATE on these things.

The only time the Lord would ask you to distance yourself from them, is when he knows that you will NOT do anything but spend time with him and in his word. It's only for a season. Perhaps it could be an assignment that he may give you in witnessing to someone, a friend, a family member ect. Perhaps it could be to study his word, to sit as someone mentioned on a previous thread silent for 1/2 hr or an hour, or all day. All day in the word and speaking to him, and crying, and worshippng, and praying... All DAY WITH MYGODJESUS.I believe the only other time the Lord would ask you to separate is if this person chooses not to serve God. Then you separate, but continue to PRAY for them, and love them. AmenI hope this helps and brings strength and encouragement to you.Ask the Lord to reveal to you why he is asking you to separate and is he really asking you?

ginnyrose, It sounds like this is a rather big issue, at least a very emotionally charged situation. When others deny it, its also hard to know what move to make next. I must be really restricting. That must be hard, especially having to question people you trust. Because it is so emotionally charged, I guess a key part is finding rest in the Holy Spirit. Otherwise wisdom and peace can escape you, which makes everything harder to sort out! Im not sure if I said it before, but the sitaution I was talking about was extreemly volatile for me: In light of something my leader did years ago, this confrontation was hard. My heart rate would rise as if I had just done a 100m sprint. I felt like it would burst out of my chest and I couldn't breathe properly. I would like awake at night because it wouldn't leave until around 1am. So it went beyond emotional to full anxiety, which took alot of time in the prayer closet, learning peace from the Prince of Peace. It also took alot to forgive the leader for causing that. So in response to "What would you suggest?" I would definately reccomend ALOT of prayer time until you have found peace about it. In regard to others denying it, I guess it would take the wisdom of a serpant and innocence of a dove. My leader and someone else were "teaming up" and one of them was telling lies about me. I had access to many messages they sent eachother, (they sent it by PM in a forum, and I had access to the whole database), and I could have easily pulled out what they had said to eachother and exposed some lies etc. The problem was that it was disrespecing their privacy, so I had to be innocent. I don't know if there is any temptation for you in "information wrongfully attained" but that was just in case! Because they denied it, I guess I have two questons:1. What is their response to the evidence presented? It just may be that there is more that you haven't heard yet, which could mean they didn't lie.2. Are they calling you a liar? If they are, without evidence, I wouldnt get too involved in their immaturity.Now to the trust, you said: "Trust could easily be restored if they would only admit it, but they refuse to do so, now where does that put me?"For me, it was really hard to remember the difference between forgiveness and trust. God commands you to forgive others, but He doesnt command you to trust them! I think that is what I talked about in one of my last posts. However, it would be unwise to just jump back into trusting them. Trust takes time to develop, and must be earned in a relationship. It is possible to still have friendship with them without trust, but you might just have to wait for the trust to be built before you can be close again. Love them unconditionally, and forgive them too! Take care not to change: "Trust could easily be restored if they would only admit it" into "Forgiveness could easily be given if they would only admit it" Pray for her (that was a hard one for me!) :-)I'm no pastor or counsellor, so please just take what I said and ask your Counsellor if He is using anything to prompt you! :-)Lord, please give ginnyrose peace and comfort in dealing with friends like this. Give her clarity when she is in prayer, and please speak to her. Guide her into your presence and help her to find rest, and grace to love them. Please help her to be as wise as a serpent and as innocent as a dove, just as you commanded. Help her know what to say and do, and what not to. Thankyou for your forgiveness that we don't deserve, please help ginny to love them and remain forgiving, finding comfort in you. Please restore their friendship to something that glorifies you. Thankyou Father.

Hi grannie!I was so touched to hear read that you were wondering where I was! Last month I felt like I was spending way too much time on here. I was posting alot in these forums and listening to alot of sermons. But slowly I spent more time here and less time "on my knees". I finally came to the realisation that I had somehow become legalistic on myself, and I had neglected the relationship, love, and grace side of God. I felt like I should take a month off to just find the love and grace again, to really get back to relationship with Him rather than religion. It has been good, but not as fast as my impaitent spirit would have liked! Please pray for me. :-)I guess in away its sort of the same with people as it is with whole communities. I detached myself from this community for a little while because I had used it as a subsitiute for relationship with God. I felt always condemnded, as I was relying on religion, but when I detahced myself to realign my mindset and relationship, things fell into place.I have had to detach myself from other people because they were affecting my relationship with God. Thats not to say I don't talk to them now, and I will happily spend some time with them. But I am definately not seeking a friendship like before until God does something in them or me so that they don't bring me down! A big thing I learned at school was that friends have influence on us, and I have to decide who I will trust with the authroity to speak into my life. By the same token, I had to decide who's authority I needed to usurp. That defined who I would be close with and who I wouldnt.I'm sure thats all simple stuff to you, but I had to share it anyway ;-)

Thanks! Annie and coops for your inspiring, encouraging words.Annie, has it right: you can deal with a lot of sins but the one of lying, is about as low as you can get because it destroys trust and unless it is acknowledged and confessed one is left feeling very alone. I have prayed and prayed. Very few days go by that I do not pray for these women. I have been sent to the scriptures for my comfort and guidance and the LORD has encouraged me to be faithful every time. BUT what bothers me is what if the LORD returns. I feel so bad about all this, yet God knows if there would be anything I could do to fix it, I would try. Initially, the HS told me to go talk with this young woman and I got really battered. These women that came to the meeting did apologize for being there - felt like they were being disobedient to the HS in going, but the things they said they have no memory of! Nor did they recall any of it, among them lies....One lesson I did learn is that if you go to the defense of a sinner you will likely commit the same! In this case the issue was lying and they in turn lied and then denied doing that!!! I have the feeling the issue is greater then lying: there must be some demonic activity involved here. And perhaps that is why these women have no memory of the things they said. I do not know if I am making any sense....ginnyrose

I enjoyed your postings, Coop.I have been offended at times, and didn't handle it the Biblical way.I will God's will in my life. I don't have the Book.Would like to have it.God Bless youNellie :-)

You and I met on your prayer thread some while back and I've been praying for you ever since. Thankyou! I don't know where I would be right now without that!My dad has told me I must read watchman nee, its good to hear some other reccomendations! I might get around to it now!Anyway, about offenses etc: I'll try and post more from the book either today or tomorrow, it seems it is really something that we all need to hear and keep fresh in out minds. God bless :-)

Last time I posted about how Joseph's brothers betrayed him. While that would be hard, it can be harder to be hurt by a "father" (biological, or some spiritual leader etc, someone you look up to).My father, know and see that there is neither evil nor rebellion in my hand, and I have not sinned against you. Yet you hunt my life and take it. - 1 Samuel 24:11When we look at Saul and David we see a really revelaing example of this: it's like a love-hate relationship. Saul is proud David, David loves Saul and looks up to him and serves him. One day Saul changes his mind and begins to try and take David out, BPD style. Now besides being really hard to understand, this sort of this is outright hurtful. I know I have had people who I admired just turn on me one day. I had one leader yell at me for something when I had done nothing wrong. It hurt more than I can express. You might have had a similar experience, but remember that God had placed David under Saul, so He had some sort of a plan in mind, there was something good that could come out of this wound. (Even though it doens't feel like it most of the time).Who will avenge me? I took the blame on myself, and for the life of me couldn't figure out why they turned on me! Finally I realised that it was them, not me. So they had hurt me and I wanted to go and get them kicked out of leadership, in fact with many witnesses it would have been an easy task. Have any of you had the same feeling?David has the perfect opportunity to take revenge on the man that has murdered innocent people and plans to murder him, he says: “Do not destroy him; for who can stretch out his hand against the LORD’s anointed, and be guiltless?” David said furthermore, “As the LORD lives, the LORD shall strike him, or his day shall come to die, or he shall go out to battle and perish. 11 The LORD forbid that I should stretch out my hand against the LORD’s anointed. But please, take now the spear and the jug of water that are by his head, and let us go.” - 1 Samuel 26:9-11So was God using me to get this person out of ministry? They were doing similar things to others and leaving scars everywhere! Ohh how good would it feel to have them removed from such a terrible position. But David let Saul go, even with all the damage he was making, because he knew that God had appointed all leaders in their position for a reason. So despite his ability to remove someone who was having such a bad affect on the Lord's people, David kept his servant heart. So who killed Saul? God used the Philistines, David had nothing to do with it. Except this, he had managed to forgive Saul long before then. He forgave him so he didn't need to take vengence, and David in fact mourned and wrote a song to honour Saul, then took care of Saul's household. This "father" had hurt David badly. Can you think of many more emotional wounds? But David laid his offences aside and chose to forgive and continue to love. I want to be a man after God's heart, so I'm choosing to forgive, as hard as it is.I hope this blessed someone :-)