Practical Atheist

Titus 1:16
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

When we look at this text, we find here people who only say with their mouth that they know God, but in fact their lives demonstrate that they do not belong to Him.
The point here is not to convince them that there is a creator God, but that their life does not match this belief.

The problem that the early church went through is the same problem that we face today: A lot of people who claim to be of God, to be followers of Christ, but their lives show that they don't know Him.

Philippians 3:18
"...that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ."

Here it shows us that they are not enemies of Jesus, but only of his Cross.
There are people who like Jesus, like the good things He can offer, but they don't want the cross.

They live only as nominal Christians, they say they are, but in fact it is the opposite.

In Revelation 3:1,
"...I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead."

The church here had a name of being alive. It had an appearance of being firm with God, but in fact Jesus knew that even if they talked about Him, they didn't have Him.

Many today talk about Jesus, but they don't have Jesus.
They teach about Him, but never allow themselves to be taught by Him.
They like to preach to others, but they don't preach to themselves.

They live by fame, live by name, live because of the Bible they carry, but the truth is that they have nothing to do with Christ.

How is your life?
Do you condemn atheists for not believing, but deep down you are like them?
Do you try to prove the existence of God to an atheist, but fail to practice what you preach?

The text of Titus 1:16 says that these people are abominable and reprobate.
Knowledge alone does not save.

It doesn't matter what seminar you did,
It doesn't matter what college you studied,
It doesn't matter your doctorate...

If we do not practice what is written in the Word of God, we will be as reprobate as the atheist who never studied.

Thank you Filipe
"If we do not practice what is written in the Word of God, we will be as reprobate as the atheist who never studied..."

John 8:30 As Jesus spoke these things, many believed in Him. 31So He said to the Jews who had believed Him,
"If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Jesus said this to the Jews who "believed in Him"

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Markus

Philippians 3:18
"...that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ."

"Here it shows us that they are not enemies of Jesus, but only of his Cross.
There are people who like Jesus, like the good things He can offer, but they don't want the cross.”

Most Christians that believe in Jesus, and have received forgiveness of sins through the atoning work of Jesus Christ through His shed blood are not true disciples of Christ. For to follow Jesus is to deny self and to TAKE UP HIS CROSS. We all have a cross, and that cross was designed to crucify the self life, so that we would live the Christ life. It’s Galatians 2:20:
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.”

Wow, not only are billions and billions of non- Christians going to hell but so are the vast majority of Christians. So much for power in the blood.

Todd, nothing was said about
true Christians going to hell, but
some will make it with all their unfruitful
Works, the wood, hay, and stubble
burned up.

…”If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames. Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?” ( 1 Cor. 3: 14-16)

Todd, nothing was said about
true Christians going to hell, but
some will make it with all their unfruitful
Works, the wood, hay, and stubble
burned up.

…”If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames. Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?” ( 1 Cor. 3: 14-16)

Philippians 3:18
"...that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ."

"Here it shows us that they are not enemies of Jesus, but only of his Cross.
There are people who like Jesus, like the good things He can offer, but they don't want the cross.”

Most Christians that believe in Jesus, and have received forgiveness of sins through the atoning work of Jesus Christ through His shed blood are not true disciples of Christ. For to follow Jesus is to deny self and to TAKE UP HIS CROSS. We all have a cross, and that cross was designed to crucify the self life, so that we would live the Christ life. It’s Galatians 2:20:
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.”

I tend to disagree that there are "mini-Christians” on one hand and "super-Christian” disciples on the other. "The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.” Acts 11:26.

What I do believe is that there is a great variation in the "range” of disciples. Some make great strides then backslide for a period, but repent and move forward after a time. Some may sit idle for a time then slowly move forward again.

Some are more obedient than others. Some struggle in certain areas.

A true disciple (Christian) is marked by his/her love for Jesus. The Gospel is not a message of performance-oriented acceptance with God. We are saved by the grace of the King, and we obey because we love the King. If we do not love Jesus, whatever begrudged obedience we may render is a sham. It is not salvation.

Philippians 3:18
"...that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ."

"Here it shows us that they are not enemies of Jesus, but only of his Cross.
There are people who like Jesus, like the good things He can offer, but they don't want the cross.”

Most Christians that believe in Jesus, and have received forgiveness of sins through the atoning work of Jesus Christ through His shed blood are not true disciples of Christ. For to follow Jesus is to deny self and to TAKE UP HIS CROSS. We all have a cross, and that cross was designed to crucify the self life, so that we would live the Christ life. It’s Galatians 2:20:
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.”

My point is that Christians are disciples of Jesus. There are no true Christians who are not disciples on some level. If a person has no desire to follow the Lord, they are not a Christian. Some are better followers than others. But the weaker ones *want* a closer walk despite their failures.

Filipe,
Your posts are edifying to me and tho there are cultural differences, we see things similarly.

In both of your threads you have written things that are a literal quote of things that have come from my own mouth while ministering -

Todd you wrote,
" Wow, not only are billions and billions of non- Christians going to hell but so are the vast majority of Christians.”

Yes this is the sad truth, tho it is not the lack of efficacy of the blood of Christ,... rather what I have found is that many want to be saved "in their sin” not from them, or to say it another way, they want to be saved in the world but not from it- that is something Jesus never offered 🤷🏽”â™‚️

The unbalanced teaching on the grace of God without the true fear of the Lord has caused many Christians to feel secure in their sin that has not been repented of. God has called us to sanctification. God will chasten every born again believer because of His great love, and He knows that the wages of sin is death. We need the true fear of God restored to the Church.

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:22).

Unfailing love and faithfulness make atonement for sin. By fearing the LORD, people avoid evil. (Proverbs 16:6).

Titus 2:11”“15 (KJV) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Mike you wrote,
" God will chasten every born again believer because of His great love, and He knows that the wages of sin is death. We need the true fear of God restored to the Church.”

Yes Amen!

and I’d add a bit a grit as well,... we’re way too soft in all the wrong places-
When I read the New Covenant, the disciples and later the apostles were very tender towards the Lord but aggressive in their ministry,... confrontational and obstinate is what they’d be called today if not worse 🤷🏽”â™‚️
All while the modern church is far too much like the world in their desire for inclusivity and tolerance... frankly I’m completely intolerant of their tolerance of all this business and
if they don’t repent they will likewise perish. Not a snowballs chance that any of the apostles would put up with this worldliness, yet the "corporate structured church” now has transitive drag queens in the pulpit 🥺.
Yet the scriptures say not to even eat with them or with those whom approve such things ....
The sad fact is that just as mentally ill people of the world "identity” as something they’re not, so too do people in the "church” identity as christian when there is equally no evidence and we all pretend with them just like the world does with people suffering from gender dysphoria,... and my question is, how will they know if they don’t hear ? If we were to continue to abdicate and remain silent, how are they supposed to hear the gospel?
Do we believe that we will not be charged as an accomplice after the fact ?
Were we not filled that we might be used of God to glorify Himself in the fruit He produces in and through us ?
In this present day, the sins of omission are far more grievous than the sins of commission.
Yet the division we see within the Church worldwide where the largest of denominations are undergoing a shaking and separating, the Lord has His body untied under His headship and His body produces much fruit 🙏🏻
Personally I’m as excited by the prospects for the harvest as I am grieved by the apathy of the church.
So we,
"Rejoice always, Pray continuously and without ceasing, giving thanks in all things, for this is Gods will for you in Christ Jesus”

Dear brothers.

I agree with what I've read from your comments.
When we talk about the grace of God, we need to keep this text in mind:

Titus 2:11-12
"11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ."

We can observe the function of God's grace in our lives, not leaving us the same ever since we were converted, but the text says that grace teaches us to renounce ungodliness and carnal desires and live in this world with holiness, righteousness and sobriety.

All who say, "I was saved by grace".
Amen, that's right. Ephesians 2:8
But how has grace changed their lives?

Grace doesn't just save us, it also teaches us to deny, or renounce, and practice.

We know that there is no middle ground in the Bible, no one can have one foot with God and the other with the world.
Matthew 6:24
"No man can serve two masters:..."
Revelation 3:15-16
"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth "

Sadly, many have lived this way.

They look like Abel, but have Cain's heart.
They look like an angel, but have a demon's heart.
They have the appearance of Jesus, but the heart is that of Judas.

We can observe by the fruits that each one shows.

I'm a big believer in entire sanctification and that the pursuit of holiness should be our main objectives as we seek the kingdom and his righteousness in doing so we eventually achieve loving God with all our heart mind soul and strength and loving our neighbour as ourself. But to be fair to the apostle Paul's letters the enemies of the Cross of Christ was not your average babe in Christ who if we read Corinthians we see the babes in Christ were called carnal and unspiritual they still had sin in their life but they were never classed as enemies of the Cross. Enemies of the Cross of Christ were always the gnostics and converted Pharisees that blended the law of Moses in with the grace of the gospel and particularly tried to imply that to the gentile converts , even Hebrews states those who were only on milk don't know good from evil which really paints babes in Christ in a similar picture to the letter to the Corinthians. Not growing up out of that stage of carnality which every Christian who is born again has to move through as a stage or stages of growth this is what the problem is when people are not taught to pursue holiness and expect transformation through the cross. We set ourselves up for a great failure if we do not distinguish the difference between an enemy of the Cross and a carnal Christian who is in the babe stage or even in a teenage stage. Because when we falsely judge and wrongly judge Brothers as enemies of the Cross we bring our self under the same judgement and inevitably quench the holy spirits power in our life. So watch out when you judge, for it will be measured back to you in the same measure. And don't think too highly of yourself because it's all Grace in their life and in our life. When we read the apostle Paul's letters he never calls babes in Christ enemies of the Cross but labelled them unspiritual carnal and they must grow up. We would do well if we had the love of Paul for the weak and in spiritual Christians who in many cases are unspiritual because of weak teaching on holiness. If you want Grace to move into the deeper levels of holiness and sanctification you pray for Grace for the weak and spiritual Christians and weep over their souls with agony of desire in the spirit of intercession, true prayer and supplication and you will do well.If you can't find true love and tears for the babes in Christ who are carnal and who have sin in their life you will not find Grace for yourself. FEED My lambs.

Gal,6. Par â–¾
Bear One Another’s Burdens

1Brothers,a if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. 5For each will have to bear his own load.

Amen Gary.

Yes there is a distinct difference between an immature christian and an enemy of the cross- and yes we are to labor in prayer tending to the needs of others, yet there are also wolves in sheep’s clothing that have crept in unawares and have drawn many away unto themselves just as Paul said would happen in Acts... these are to be confronted and rebuked at all points. They are not to be coddled or placated, to do so only brings reproach- Just read the letters to the churches in Revelations to see the effect of tolerating them.

To be clear, we ALL sin and fall short at times, tho there is a further distinction between those whom are seeking His kingdom and those whom simply use the "cover” of fellowship to lend themselves credibility in their worldly endeavors as though they are at liberty to pursue and be aligned with the world, it’s aims, it’s achievements, it’s affirmations- this mostly goes unchecked in this modern age largely due to the lack of faith and even when it’s addressed, it is most often done so passive aggressively and no godly fruit comes of it, rather it puffs up one side and excuses the other. This is not the way of Christ, yet is this not what we see permeating the modern Church ?
The Methodist have ordained transvestites
The Episcopalians have approved of sex change operations for all ages
The Southern Baptist Convention has been riddled with corruption for so long, now the Department of Justice has had to open investigations to attempt to provide remedy

This is not a lack of tolerance, this is a lack of discipline and fear of the Lord on the part of church "leadership” whom themselves have demonstrated they are not under the headship of Christ, else this would not be so- as a result the "sheep” are not being brought up in the fear of the Lord but are being fed damnable lies and comforted in their sin and taught to be "tolerant” and "inclusive” lacking discernment or even the light to be able to...

Most every person in church wants the new creation, kingdom based, eternal life, yet very few are willing to die to themselves and this world.
You can’t be reborn if you haven’t died yet... 🤷🏽”â™‚️
IF they refuse to be identified with the cross of Christ, they are ineligible to be raised with Him in newness of life -
This has resulted in our churches being filled not with "carnal christians” but with scores of unconverted souls whom are falsely being comforted on their way to hell. 🥺

Bold, confrontational preaching of the cross and repentance is what the scriptures provide as remedy, yet where is such freshness in today’s pulpits...??
We’ve turned John 3:16 into the gospel and it is not!
In fact the whole book of John is written exclusively to believers and is in no way applicable to the unbelieving, unconverted-
Yet we seem to be embarrassed by the true gospel as it is not only confrontational but offensive to anyone not yet born again, so we see it trimmed here, shaved there and perpetually watered down in an attempt to fit in with their worldview rather than expose it as lacking any basis in eternal reality.

God is so merciful and a brother or sister that falls many times and repents and has a heart to change God will forgive them every time. It is the Christian that has no desire to repent of sin, that continues in their sin, and believes that because of God‘s grace God overlooks the sin, those are the ones that are enemies of the cross of Christ.

//It is the Christian that has no desire to repent of sin, that continues in their sin, and believes that because of God‘s grace God overlooks the sin, those are the ones that are enemies of the cross of Christ.//

This person is not a Christian, I would argue.

It is possible for a Christian to fall away from
the faith, and there are many admonitions
in the Word concerning this.

1 Timothy 4:1 ESV

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV / 358 helpful votes

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Revelation 2:4-5 ESV

But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Hebrews 3:12-19 ESV /

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? ...

Matthew 24:10-13 ESV /

And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

2 Peter 2:20-22 ESV /

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

2 Corinthians 11:3 ESV /

But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Romans 11:19-22 ESV /

Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

James 1:12 ESV /

One is not saved by 80% obedience””nor by 100% obedience (which actually is possible over short periods, by the way). One is saved by having genuinely embraced the King and the life that logically follows from having such a King. None obeys completely, but we are commanded to do so, and true disciples have every intention of doing so. Failure to obey completely is a breach of the King's law, but it is not, in itself, damning. To inadvertently violate the speed limit is not to renounce your citizenship. Likewise, a child is not disowned by his parents because he forgets to do a particular assigned chore. There is grace in this Kingdom for those whose disobedience springs from weakness, ignorance or temporary insanity (James 3:2), and not from rebellion (Matt.26:41).

Todd,
You wrote " One is saved by having genuinely embraced the King and the life that logically follows from having such a King”

😳

Where does your Bible say this??

Mine says,
"Except ye repent..”
"Except ya be born again...”
"If you say you love me but you don’t obey me, you are a liar and the truth is not in you "

Reconcile-

Todd, read your bible!

Opinions mean little or nothing
when not based on the Word of God.

All I was saying Brother is we better be right when we make that distinction and we better be using true discernment or the gift of discerning of spirits to know who we are dealing with otherwise we can' cast false judgement which is an extremely serious sin for Christians to participate in and this sin
is widely overlooked in Bible believing churches. I would never deny some of the abomination that is crept into the church and even into leadership positions. But you and me as a Christian have a sphere of influence and authority and in most cases it's in our local congregation we don't have an apostolic mantle on us that allows us to go around to 100 different churches and rebuke and reprove the false teachers. Heresy hunting is not a gift of the spirit and it's neither a 5 fold calling. And even an elder of the local church has a certain amount of authority within that body of believers. Complaining and lamenting about the problems in Christianity doesn't solve any of it. In most cases you won't convert one enemy of the Cross to become a true born-again Christian by rebuke. And to be honest most of us don't hold any positions of authority in churches, and are not even given the right to even rebuke an elder. This is what Paul said to Timothy and Timothy was probably an apostle. So we have to be real about what our calling is and what we are we called to do. All of us a called to exhort one another daily, and to build one another up with the gifts that we've been given, Not one person of the congregation is given a mandate to run around pointing out the abominations in the harlot churches. Even in 2nd Timothy chapter 3 where it says that in the last days perilous times will come for men will be lovers of themselves lovers of money boosters ext, v9 says they will progress no further for their folloy will be manifest to all. This vers also is fulfilled the folly and the sin is clear to see. Our calling is to not fellowship with the enemies not to try and extend our limited authority into these dens and rebuke them . In reality we're not even to sit down and eat or to talk with them. And talking about them does nothing to help our devotions and our prayer life. Many people have talked about the same thing for 10:15 20 years and it's still achieves nothing. If there will ever be any change it'll only ever be through the awakening a great revival that God may possibly show mercy on some fellowships that are not too far gone we are to give ourselves over to the spirit of intercession and allow the Holy spirit to pray through us with groans that cannot be uttered, as a prophet of old pleaded for Israel in there sin , we should come to God with a pure heart and allow the Holy spirit to use us as a vessel to intercede on us and the church..

//Todd, read your bible!

Opinions mean little or nothing
when not based on the Word of God//

I’m not sure either you or Fletcher read what I wrote very carefully.

We seem to be talking past one another as there is no disagreement on my end with what you’re saying, and while I can wholeheartedly agree with your point, there is more to the story so to speak...

We are to exhort, but also rebuke
We are to encourage, but also reprove
We are to fellowship, but also to contend

And while there is not a "ministry of correction” by name, there is in scripture a distinct fulfillment of the need of correcting by the prophets...

We (the modern church) by and large, concern ourselves with the quantity where in the scriptures we find Jesus always whittling down to get to the quality. Always raising the bar to incomparable heights where no flesh may glory and where God alone is capable and therefore worthy of it all ✝️🙏🏻

We we all born into a spiritual war that has been raging for millennia, this is a central theme throughout the scriptures. Because of this we are setting people up for perpetual defeat and ultimately death by not requiring discipleship just as Jesus and the Apostles did. A believer who is born again has to be discipled and equipped, else he is not only a defenseless target for the enemy but is completely unprofitable for the Lord at no fault of his own 🤷🏽”â™‚️
This is why we have so many programs tryin to get people free, or fix their marriage, or their addiction, or there...(whatever).
All of that gets sorted out rather quickly in a disciplined fellowship-
But even in our most disciplined there is yet a lack of equipping,... and this is far more costly because we are like the British cops in a comedy skit- "STOP! ..... or I’ll say STOP! again...”
there is no real threat to the enemy, so it’s mostly just "make believe” .
Paul says it and I believe it 💯 that our weapons are mighty for the pulling down of strongholds and ANY PRETENSE that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ-
After the transformation on the mount, Jesus told Peter that the "gates of Hell shall not prevail against His kingdom" .
Gates are a defensive measure,.... we are on offense folks, amour up .

Brother I wasn't addressing you in the first place, and I agree with what you're saying. It was really the original post. And the idea of making sure we're not judging our brothers in Christ who are babes in Christ and those who may have demonic bondage in their life and need deliverance from. And comparing that to the enemies of the Cross of Christ. My point was rebuking the enemies and trying to bring correction to them is not biblical this is what Paul says about it 3unloving, [b]unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! . What we seem to forget and I'm speaking in general about born again Christians and even spirit-filled soto speak, that false judgement is an extremely serious sin that many people seem to ignore yet love to point out the Sins in the church and even misjudge Christians as enemies. This type of sin will quench and even grieve the Holy spirit as much as any Carnal babe in Christ or Carnal Christian Would. And we wonder why as a church we're not moving with revival with Holy spirit fire. And I'm not talking about you brother. Many congregations because of the sin false judgement remain far removed from the spirit of revival. All the while pointing their fingers at everyone else. Judgement can become a stronghold in a person's life and with that is attached a demonic spirit which many would even say is a religious spirit. It's that series that you can go into bondage, and that bondage leads to a deception where one can't even see or realise that they're in the bondage due to the spirits of judgement. This is why the apostle Paul and Jesus spoke very firmly against judging one another. It becomes an open door and a root that produces other sins, because it is so closely linked with the sin of Pride. One of Satan's main objectives is to keep this sin active in the church and to keep it hidden because while he does that he knows that the Holy spirit will never be poured out upon a people that practise false judgement, it is as yeast. Brother and I have to repeat I'm not talking about you I'm speaking in the general way because there are quite a lot of denominations that practise judgement and claim it to be religion. And these are not enemies of the Cross these are born again bible-believing churches that do this. And I want nothing more then for a revival to come and sweep all the churches but it's not going to happen with some because they will not prepare heart in humility. False judgement is an extremely serious sin like unforgiveness and it needs to be dealt with. 🙏🍞🍷🕎✝️

"that false judgement is an extremely serious sin that many people seem to ignore yet love to point out the Sins in the church and even misjudge Christians as enemies. This type of sin will quench and even grieve the Holy spirit as much as any Carnal babe in Christ or Carnal Christian Would. And we wonder why as a church we're not moving with revival with Holy spirit fire. "

"Do not judge by the outward appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
( John 7:24)

"But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?…” (1 Corinthians 5:11,12)

I agree brother that unrighteous judgment is a serious sin, but the Apostle Paul rebuked the Corinthian church for not judging the man that was living in open sin. There is a righteous judgment, with a redemptive purpose not to condemn,
but to bring to repentance and restore to fellowship.

Thats is church disapline brother,and the leaders weren't doing their job description. They could not resolve simple matters at a leadership level. And used pagan Court systems as well.They were in a mess.

We first must ask the Lord to search our hearts before we can help others. We bring correction in a spirit of meekness.

"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” (Matthew 7:5)

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17).

I was also thinking Mathew 7;5 sin out of our life first. The eye is the lamp of the body ,and also If thy eye be single . A pure heart 💓 releases a spirt of restoration rather then judment and condemnation. Rompns14 10But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of [c]Christ. 11For it is written:

"As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13Therefore let us not judge one another [d]anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.🙏🔥✝️🕎🍷🍞

"We have judged our fellow men as sinners. If God should judge us like that we would be in hell. God judges us through the marvelous Atonement of Jesus Christ.” - Oswald Chambers, from Run Today's Race

"Jesus' instructions with regard to judging others is very simply put; He says, 'Don't.' Stop having a measuring stick for other people. There is always at least one more fact, which we know nothing about, in every person's situation. If I see a speck in your eye, it means that I have a plank of timber in my own. I have never met a person I could despair of, or lose all hope for, after discerning what lies in me apart from the grace of God." --Oswald Chambers, from My Utmost for His Highest.

Might seem a little bit off topic but god doesn't judge from the outward appearance but he looks into the heart in the spirit. Look how Jesus judged the crazy violent man in the tomb. Most of us would see a mentally deranged possibly psychopath. But Jesus saw the demons and judged them and cast them out of the man and set him free. What about Mary Magdalene he saw 7 demons in Her and set her free. People need to be set free and delivered and that only comes when one loves enough and obeys Jesus commands. Loving your neighbour as yourself and loving your enemy brings about deliverance. Many people caught up in sin and bound with the demonic need to encounter the anointing in us. I think Derek Prince was a fine example of someone who who saw the spirits behind compulsive sinfull behaviour and he dealt with it and taught others to deal with it and he became one of the stalwarts of freedom. If we fall into the the trap the dark cave of judging our brothers and sisters we can never do what Derek Prince did and help to set people free. One of the main reasons we have so much sin within the body of Christ is because this is not being practised, people are too busy recognising sin and condemning and looking on the outward appearance rather than using the gift of discerning of spirits. There's a lot of talk about the gifts of the spirit but there's a lot of practical cessationists. That just talk about the gifts of the spirit but are never able to use them . Because of their own disobedience it's such an ironic thing, having disobedience in our life but pointing it out in others. And having a spirit of Pride that makes us feel like we're doing gods work. I believe I'm not speaking from ignorance that I was doing the same thing myself. So for me this is about my life and what I've gone through the sins of judgement and unbelief are the real plague in the church. There can be no true holiness and depth of sanctification until we deal with those two sins unforgiveness will flow from those two sins. Pride judgement and unbelief are bound together, and always creates a demonic stronghold in a person's life and a cloud of deception that one can't even see it unless the Holy spirit reveals it.

1 Corinthians 5:

11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer[a] yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.

12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. 13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you.”

I just cut and paste this from from part of what I wrote towards the bottom of this page.... ((((((My point was rebuking the enemies and trying to bring correction to them is not biblical this is what Paul says about it 3unloving, [b]unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! . ))))

Brother that was the scripture that Mike was bringing up. A form of church discipline it wasn't being practised properly in the Corinthian church by its leaders and probably the congregation were because of bad leadership were fellowshipping with serious unrepentant sinners . In that case I believe that's actually referring to an actual brother in Christ who had his father's mother Paul talked about him and told them to hand such Satan for for discipline so he had to be judged as a sinner not in the sense that that it's ok to hate or not love him. The practise of shunning which we see in 2nd Corinthians Paul told them to restore him back into fellowship. So I think Paul's dealing with both you could say enemies of the Cross who were probably infiltrating the church called themselves brother's but they still practised idolatry and he was directly speaking about a matter he had heard about through other brothers in the church it was directly related to a sinning brother. But in reality it was the leaders and the elders job to judge him as a sinner and handing over to Satan or to judge the and discern the false Brothers and not allow them into fellowship and to teach the congregation to not eat or fellowship with that type of person like Paul said to Timothy completely avoid the enemies of the Cross.

Brother I think we need to make the clear distinction between discernment from a mature believer who has his senses exercised as the writer of Hebrews talks about, and then the gift of discerning of spirits which is used to discern the spirit that a person may be operating in. These two things would be used buy Christians and especially matured elders leaders in the church to combine with church discipline and shunning. And then on the other hand we have false judgement and condemnation that is addressed by Jesus and the apostle Paul which is sinfull, and in itself arises from the flesh and from a root of Pride and even a religious demonic spirit like the one the Pharisees were oppressed by.

Hello brothers,
It seems that this topic has gone further than I expected.

Dear Gary, allow me to disagree biblically with what you said regarding the enemies of the cross.
The first analysis would be the immediate context, in verse 19 of Philippians 3, Paul explains who the enemies of the cross are
"Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."

The enemies of the cross are those who think of themselves, of their satisfaction, of their belly, and also those who keep their minds on the things of this world.

Of course, as we read the beginning of chapter 3, Paul talks about the Judaizers.
But we must always remember that the Word of God is alive (Hebrews 12).
What was written 2000 years ago is still alive and applicable today.

Regarding the issue of judgment, I need to talk a little about it, analyzing how the world is today and what the bible says.

First of all, we need to keep in mind that judgment is not something taken from the mind of each one, but according to righteous judgment.
We must not judge anyone using our ideas, but the Word itself, for that is what will judge on the last day. (John 12:48)

In Judges 17:6 it says:
"In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes".

We can see in the context of the passage the confusion that people had, precisely because there was no one who could guide them and correct them from their sins.

In my country there is a false doctrine that basically says:
"No one can judge me, because God knows my heart"

I know a person who lives in the practice of sin, he has even been caught, but he still says that God knows his heart, and no one has the right to judge him, as Matthew 7 says.
Now, let me say something.

In Matthew chapter 7, the fact that we do not judge the other, does not mean that we will not be judged by God, because we will all appear before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of our lives.

The issue is whether we are a hypocrite. It is when I condemn someone for looking at a woman in the street with a sinful desire, but I am living in adultery.
The point is that I correct my life first and then help in correcting the other. We can have as a principle to always look at the mistakes of others as a speck and our own always as a beam, so that we can consider them better than ourselves and help them.

But judgment must be made in the house of God. (1 Peter 4:17)
Things are the way they are, precisely because no one likes to talk about another's sin so that no one talks about their sin.

A pastor once said to me:
"Don't judge your brother for this sin, because tomorrow you might commit the same sin."
So is that the parameter? I treat people in sin in a normal way so that if I fall tomorrow they will treat me well?

What's the problem with the judgment?
Those who are afraid of judgment are those who are wrong.
I suppose none of us are afraid of the police breaking into our house, arresting us, and taking us before the judge. Why?
Because we don't have to fear, we are living right.
But if perhaps we are living in the wrong way, then we start to fear.

The one who fears judgment is usually the one who lives wrongly, whether because of open sins or hidden sins.
Unfortunately today there is the theology of self-esteem. Many preachers, instead of looking at people as sinners who need Christ, look at them as victims of a system, a society and even of the church.
Through their self-help, motivational messages, they try to generate motivation and enthusiasm in this type of person.
That's why we have inclusive churches today.
They like to preach about forgiveness, but not about salvation.

I agree with you Gary about those who are still new to Christ.
One wrong thing I've seen happen is comparing our maturity today (which took years to happen) with those who have just arrived at the church, sometimes they are pressured to grow in a few months what took years to happen in us.

We need to be fair.

The point of a Christian is always to save men and awaken them to the knowledge of the truth.

//The enemies of the cross are those who think of themselves, of their satisfaction, of their belly, and also those who keep their minds on the things of this world.//

But these people are not Christians. They are not born again.

The issue then would seem to be how to treat these "enemies of the cross.”

I don't think I really understand Brother where your going with that. I was pointing out the fact that many people judge brothers in Christ who are in sin yet they have sin in their own life and this is specifically the way the apostle Paul and Jesus taught. When it comes to restoring their brothers in love through the power of the Holy spirit it never happens they just sit back like keyboard warriors and point out sins. And as tmk points out the enemies of the Cross and those mentioned by Paul in his letter to Timothy would probably not be considered Christians but had a completely different spirit and historically were probably part of the gnostic sect that deny that Jesus came in the flesh. Paul looked down on the Jews who were pushing circumcision and other mosaic laws upon converted gentiles, considered some of them imposters who come into spy out the liberty that was in Christ so these were possibly not converted either. Point was to make sure we no the difference . One group of Christians were imposters an enemies, scripture tells where Paul said to avoid them completely to not even admonished them. In the letter to the Corinthian we see immature babes in Christ he called them unspiritual who had quite a lot of sin in their life within the church but were treated like loving children Paul even said he was their father and him having an apostolic leadership position and was an elder had the authority to deal with sinning Christians but he did it in love. clearly. There are many heresy hunters today they don't treat their brother's with love at all but just wield the sword of the spirit and try to cut their heads off and clearly lack love and tears over those who they believe are in sin. The restorers, and the heart of the apostle Paul was clear he said he mourned over those in sin and we should also morn over those and sin. And as I mentioned before we have men like Derek Prince who dealt with demonic strongholds and practise deliverance ministry of Christians who still had addictions and different problems. Because of these things never been dealt with when they got converted. Brother you must have a leadership position as an elder in a church can I ask what denomination if you don't mind. I don't Hide my beliefs I'm a charismatic believer that believes in deliverance ministry power of the Holy spirit walking in holiness intire sanctification. And the laws of love. Whether we like it or not when we read Corinthians in Hebrews a person can stay immature and even be classed as a babe when they should be growing up and be teachers but if the discipleship program is not being taught properly and deliverance ministry isn't taking place in the church and true holiness isn't being preached then people are going to remain immature even after 20 years. Whether we like it or not we have a merciful loving God who still loves his children even the ones that didn't grow up the ones that weren't taught properly because the eldership wasn't in the position of teaching them properly. He still has Patience and wants them to grow up, god clearly does demonstrates that he has more Mercy and Grace and patience than what we do, and prove that many times by the way he treats his children . Confess your faults to another and pray for one another that you may be healed for the affectional fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much said a certain apostle. One alsosaid you who are spiritual you restore the sinning brother. Words alone with rebukes and repvoves will never restore Christians this is why prayer through the laying on of hands is what brings about healing and deliverance. Us moving in and living with a powerful anointing trembling at his word and being filled with the Holy spirit which amounts to living in a personal revival, is what will cause the demons to manifest when you pray and lay hands on people and it's what brings about healing. I'll just put it out there many heresy hunters and Seasoned rebukers are not moving in a personal revival or corporate one and so lake power and presence. There is an expiration date on how much patience God has for carnal Christians, thats why We cry out for more mercy and travail in birth pains for the church and for Christians and for God to continue to have more Mercy and to pour out his spirit , until Christ is fully formed withIn us all .🙏🕎✝️🔥🍷🍞. Brother when we travail in the spirit of intercession we put ourselves through the working of the Holy spirit in the place of the sinning brother, and the weight of sin becomes our own in that moment, and conviction for their sin becomes our own we are in full identification with those whom we trevail and pray for. We fully stand in The gap between them and between God identifying with them and praying on their behalf with groanings and tears buckled over in some cases with very real discomfort and pain. The Same way we would have prayed for our own sins in repentance. This is the love of the Holy spirit praying through us with groans, we allow God to use us as a vessel of intercession Loving our sinful brothers in Christ who are caught up in a sins, really experiencing the tangible love Jesus has for that soul and allowing the Holy spirit to pray and travail through us. God wants to take his people into the deeper levels of intercession, those that are open to it the spirit of intercession is coming upon the remenant who have been seeking God with fasting and many many hours of prayer. God wants to let us experience more of his heart. And he does that through the spirit of prayer and supplication.

Hello,

I want to encourage everyone to build each other up in the faith. When you believe in the Name of Jesus Christ you are saved and became born again. We became children of God because of His grace through Jesus Christ.
Judging is a sin if intended to harm to the person and to destroy their faith. But when you discern the errors of your brethren, we must help the person up with gentleness and kindness. Pray on behalf of the brother or sister who is struggling with sin. And, we must be on guard against false teachers and prophets who divide the community of believers. So if you encounter them, we must stop them from harming the church. Finally, we must follow Jesus Christ whom loved us so much that He laid down His life for us. This means we too must lay down our lives for others. Do all things in love.

Shalom,
Robert

I also have wrestled with this problem of looking at fruit to determine whether someone is saved or not. A lot of this was exhaustively discussed during the "Lordship Salvation" debates that happened after John MacArthur wrote his "Gospel According to Jesus" book. I understand his concerns and yet his solution was to dictate a list of conditions the sinner had to meet in order to be saved. It was very much a salvation by sanctification approach that many applauded.

While I do believe in grace very strongly, I also know that cheap grace is a disgrace whereby grace is used to excuse sin and make peace with it. And so I wrestled with where exactly to draw the line in order to know if I had crossed the line and fell from grace. Well, to cut to the chase: If someone is hyper-focused on exactly what they have to do or not do in order to be saved, go to heaven and not go to hell, they are just looking to save their own skin and really just want to "use" Jesus for their own sake. They profess Christ and think they are saved and yet Jesus tells us that many folks when they see Him face to face will say "Lord, Lord" and He will tell them, "I never knew you". So I think it is extremely critical to see that the important thing is RELATIONSHIP! Let us fall deeply in love with this wonderful Savior who loved us and was so patient and forbearing with us while we were slaves of sin. Who looked beyond our faults and saw our need and constantly sought us out that we might have intimate fellowship with Him. Jesus says, "Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it". Lk. 17:33 And while we should love ourself in a balanced and healthy way, if we take it too far and fail to love God or others and give them proper consideration (loving them because it is the nature of our transformed heart that Jesus gave us and not because of obligation or duty), we will one day recognize we missed what life was all about.

This is what Charles Finney said about "practical atheism"

Religion does not consist in desires to do good actions. Desires that do not result in choice and action are not virtuous. Nor are such desires necessarily vicious. They may arise involuntarily in the mind, in view of certain objects, but while they produce no voluntary act, they are no more virtuous or vicious than the beating of the pulse, except in cases where we have indirectly willed them into existence, by voluntarily putting ourselves under circumstances to excite them. The wickedest man on earth may have strong desires after holiness. Did you ever think of that? He may see clearly that holiness is the only and indispensable means of happiness, he naturally desires it. It is to be feared, that multitudes are deceiving themselves with the supposition, that a desire for holiness, as a means of happiness, is religion. Many, doubtless, give themselves great credit for desires that never result in choosing right. They feel desires to do their duty, but do not choose to do it, because upon the whole they have still stronger desires not to do it. In such desires, there is no virtue. An action or desire to be virtuous in the sight of God, must be an act of the will. People often talk most absurdly on this subject, as though their desires had anything good, while they remain mere desires. "I think I desire to do so and so.” But do you do it? "Oh, no, but I often feel a desire to do it.” This is practical Atheism.