God did not create us to live by instructions.

So many of us want to hear instructions about God thinking we can use that knowledge to live - but that is just the old tell us what to do and we will do it trick. It does not matter if these instructions are correct or not. This is NOT LIFE. God did not create us to live by instructions. Even the human Christ did not live by any instructions. We go to church hoping to hear some truth that we can apply to ourselves that will make us more pleasing to God.

Instructions, applications, information, teachings, doctrine, knowledge, principles, formulas and our own mind can NEVER give LIFE. They only point us to the ONLY LIFE that exists - God in the person of Christ Himself! Over my lifetime I have read many books, listened to thousands of sermons, went to special conferences - retreats - seminars, I went to bible college, read the whole bible. I did learn many facts about God and Christ but for much of this time I did not really experience Jesus Christ really living within me.

Many define "sin" as a choice of wrong instead of right, of evil instead of good, of not doing what God says instead of doing what God says. This is a "tree" in which many of us think we live in. Inside of that tree, we can do right and good and what God says almost to perfection and still be living in death, still be "putting Jesus to death," as Paul discovered.

The Tree of Life is something entirely different. Those who live inside of the Tree of Life have given up on themselves, but trust utterly in the One in whom they live to keep them. But we do not live inside of the Tree of Life in order to live inside of the Tree of Life, as wonderful as that is. We live inside of the Tree of Life that Jesus might connect us utterly with God, our Father. Yet being utterly connected with God is also not an end in itself.

The purpose of everything is that God our Father might have what He wants. And what God wants above all is a Body, a visible form, through which He can be Himself inside of His creation, through which all that He has created can see and know Him. This is the asserted testimony of all Scripture.

Exodus 25:21-22. - You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you. And there I will meet WITH you, and I will speak WITH you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, about everything...

Jesus is my ability to know God. Jesus gives me a through-mind so that a Jesus and a word "out there" become Jesus and Word inside. Jesus gives me a through-mind so that a God "out there" becomes my Father inside, sharing my life with me. Jesus is my all-connection with God, the Covenant. His sacrifice removes all consciousness of sins. Jesus’ leads me to humble myself with Father. Jesus as living Spirit Word fills my thoughts with God’s thinking. Because I live only inside of Jesus, I know that I live only inside of the Father. Jesus is the most capable Being in the universe; He is able to make God part of my life and to make me part of God’s Heart. Jesus belongs to me.

My Beloved, know Me, that you are inside of Me and I am inside of you. Lean your head against My breast and hear My voice speaking to you out from My Heart. I am here inside of you because I love you, and I always want to be with you and you with Me. But I am inside of you for a far greater purpose as well. My dear one, inside of Me is the Father, and I, with you in Me, am inside of the Father. I connect you with God All-Carrying. I cause you to KNOW the Father. I am your ability to know God; I am the knowing of the Father inside of you. Let’s you and Me know Father together, for the sake of others, Father’s Heart revealed.

That contradicts the Bible though Vern

Psalm 32 v 8
I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will guide you with My eye.

2 Tim 3 v 16
The word of God is profitable for ... instruction in Righteousness. That the man of God may be approved.

Psalm 32 v 8 This God Himself who is dwelling and abiding within us who instructing us and guiding us. This is a result of His LIFE within us.

2 Tim 3 v 16 This word is more then words on paper because you can search the scriptures and miss The LIFE of God in Christ. This is a LIVING word that is the result OF HIS LIFE within us.

Hi Vern... 2 Timothy 3 v 15 the verse before 16 is clearly relating instruction to knowing the Holy Scriptures though

I do understand grace. And what you're wanting to say. I did live in it for some years after I was baptized in the holy spirit.
But the Lord starting shutting that down in me.

Beloved Vern,

I understand freedom in the Spirit! But we have to be careful "how" our freedom comes off to new babes on the milk of the word.

Not that we want to make them a slave to the law but the Word of God says the spirit of the prophets are SUBJECT to the prophets! So, in our freedom, there is still a hierarchy. And if there isn't, David Koresh and Jim Jones come to mind as worse case scenarios.

Paul said, "Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible." 1 Cor 9:19

God bless you,
Lisa

Quote: The purpose of everything is that God our Father might have what He wants. And what God wants above all is a Body, a visible form, through which He can be Himself inside of His creation, through which all that He has created can see and know Him. This is the asserted testimony of all Scripture. : End Quote

Good word Brother.🌟🔥🌟

You wrote: "God did not create us to live by instructions..."
In Genesis 2:15 we read:
Then the LORD God took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded him, "You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”…

"And what God wants above all is a Body, a visible form, through which He can be Himself inside of His creation, through which all that He has created can see and know Him.
This is the asserted testimony of all Scripture..."

You are leading us onto very dangerous ground.
Gnosticism is also a belief that human beings contain a piece of God within themselves

Beware!

Markus

Let me make it very clear - when we were born again (fathered from above) we became God's children.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9 KJV)

Yes God's Spirit has been infused with our spirit and are one with Him. Christ abides, dwells and lives in us.

God has MADE US ONE with HIM. "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption." NASB

God the father is in Jesus Christ we now have that LIFE inside us- no other life exists.

George Mueller on food for the inner man/sustaining the new life:

"It often now astonished me that I did not sooner see this. In no book did I ever read about it. No public ministry ever brought the matter before me. No private intercourse with a brother stirred me up to this matter. And yet now, since God has taught me this point, it is as plain to me as anything, that the first thing the child of God has to do morning-by-morning is to obtain food for his inner man.
As the outward man is not fit for work for any length of time, except we take food, and as this is one of the first things we do in the morning, so it should be with the inner man. We should take food for that, as every one must allow. Now what is the food for the inner man; not prayer, but the Word of God; and here again not the simple reading of the Word of God, so that it only passes through our minds, just as water runs through a pipe, but considering what we read, pondering over it, and applying it to our hearts....

I dwell so particularly on this point because of the immense spiritual profit and refreshment I am conscious of having derived from it myself, and I affectionately and solemnly beseech all my fellow-believers to ponder this matter. By the blessing of God I ascribe to this mode the help and strength which I have had from God to pass in peace through deeper trials in various ways than I had ever had before; and after having now above forty years tried this way, I can most fully, in the fear of God, commend it. How different when the soul is refreshed and made happy early in the morning, from what it is when, without spiritual preparation, the service, the trials and the temptations of the day come upon one!"

From:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=45787

One of the Holy Spirit's Job is to lead us into all truth.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The Holy Spirit NEVER ceases to to this.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding (sustaining) all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

This means- Jesus bears me up from or as from below; Jesus upholds me; Jesus supports me; Jesus sustains my load. Jesus keeps me from falling, or sinking; Jesus sustains my weight. Jesus keeps me from sinking into despondency; Jesus sustains me by hope. Jesus maintains and keeps me up. Jesus maintains me with undiminished force or intensity for my lifetime and forever by a sustained effort. Jesus maintains and supports me with the needs of life. Jesus aids, comforts, and relieves me. Jesus suffers under, bears, and undergoes me. Jesus endures for me without failing or yielding; Jesus bears up under for me.

Jesus conveys and transports me. Jesus conducts, leads, and guides me; Jesus escorts, moves, and causes me to go forward. Jesus transfers me from one place to another. Jesus takes me the distance in a single stroke. Jesus conveys me by extension and continuance; Jesus extends me. Jesus possesses and obtains me; Jesus wins and captures me. Jesus supports and sustains me; Jesus holds me while He moves about from place to place; Jesus contains me and carries me about inside Himself. Jesus carries me as a mother carries a child in her womb. Jesus carries me as His attribute and property, His show or exhibit. Jesus holds me high. Jesus sustains my weight and burden. Jesus produces me as a crop; Jesus supports me with sustenance. Jesus makes me good and valid.

Jesus supports and moves me; Jesus carries and conveys me. Jesus renders and gives me; Jesus brings me forward. Jesus conducts and brings me. Jesus manages, wields, and directs me. Jesus possesses and uses me. Jesus possesses and carries me as a mark of distinction. Jesus carries and holds me in His mind. Jesus carries on and maintains me. Jesus gains and wins me. Jesus supports, sustains, and holds me up. Jesus is answerable for me. Jesus admits me; Jesus is capable of me. Jesus brings forth and produces me.

Jesus carries my burden and suffers for me. Jesus withstands strains and bears against testing for me. Jesus endures difficulties with patience for me. Jesus means, intends, and effects me. Jesus presses up against for me. Jesus takes effect, maintains influence and force for me. Jesus bears me and produces me as His fruit.

Christ in us is our ONLY hope of Glory.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

I've removed the comment.

Jeremiah prophesied that the day was coming when we would no longer have the law of God written on tablets of stone, but in our hearts. So, in a very real sense, we do not live by instructions anymore. We live by the prompting of the Holy Spirit who lives in us and with whom we are in constant fellowship. That does not mean that there are no instructions that guide us. Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, etc. all left instructions for how a believer should conduct his or her life. The real difference is that we no longer try to keep the instructions out of the effort of our flesh. We are born again and we obey from the Spirit, which is a very big difference. If we legalistically try to do what we read in the Bible, we will be miserable and it will not produce fruit in our lives. If we have relationship with God through Christ and learn to walk in the Spirit, then our obedience will bear much fruit.

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you." Matt. 28:19,20

This are just some of the clear instructions that Jesus gave to his disciples.
You are therefore promoting dangerous heresy

Markus

Markus: I don't think I would consider the OP heresy. Far from it. But I do think we need to define what we mean by following instructions. I believe what is meant is that there is a difference in trying to live under law (trying to keep lists of rules by our own efforts)and living under the New Covenant in which we are born again and live governed by the indwelling Holy Spirit. A man or woman who lives completely governed by the Spirit of God would not need instructions to tell him or her how to live. The Holy Spirit would take care of that. Yet we do have instructions given in the New Testament. But they are in keeping with the things of the Spirit, not laws to be obeyed from the flesh.

Nolan Ryan could throw a baseball through a brick wall because of his "indwelt” natural ability. He was also very wild and was in danger of a stalled career until a good pitching coach instructed him on proper throwing mechanics.

A person filled with the Spirit still needs to know what scripture says- not everything is intuitive even via the HS.

Gal 3:21- Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

God never intended for the law to be the solution for our sinful condition. The law can not cleanse our heart, make us righteous, make us holy, make us sons of God or transport us out of the Kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.

In Romans 7 Paul describes what happened to him when he tried to stop coveting but he did not not provide the solution to it until Romans 8.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

For what the law could not do - JESUS CHRIST DID!!

So the only solution for our sinful condition was solved by God who sent his Son who died as us and then rose from the dead as us giving us His very life.

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:19

The law could never reconcile us to Him. IMPOSSIBLE!!

Todd: Agreed! The point was that we were never designed to live by law (simply by following instructions in our own fleshly effort). We are designed to live from a place of relationship and righteousness, governed by the Holy Spirit.

The scripture is very important. We cannot diminish that even a little bit. But there are people who have never owned or read the Bible who are living lives governed by the Holy Spirit and bearing fruit for the Kingdom of God.

So we cannot simply, from our flesh, try to do what the Bible says and be righteous or live Godly lives. We will simply be trying in our flesh to adhere to a set of rules. I think that is the point. The Bible is the word of God. We need it. We need to study it, teach it, allow it to absolutely transform us, and obey what is commands us to do. But a person who does not possess a Bible, and yet is born again and filled with the Spirit, will be governed by the Spirit of God. Even those who have the Bible and study it are not governed by the Spirit of God if they are not walking in the Spirit. This is evidenced by the craziness that we see going on in the "church" world these days.

Travis agree 100%.

My Nolan Ryan analogy was simply intended to indicate the need to know the basic framework. His ability to throw as baseball faster than anyone was not due to instruction. But instruction kept his gift in check.

vern
Where did you get your ideas from ? Some books ?
Do you go to a church at the moment ?

Yes - me and my wife go to a local church.

I do not read many books but I am connected with many others by email and web pages.

Did you see this post?

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=65194&forum=34

look what Chip wrote

"What is the Christian Life? It is leaving our ground altogether and coming onto the ground of Christ. It is deeper than a changed life ”“ it is an exchanged life. Over time we can accomplish a change, but we can do nothing to exchange our life for His Life. This, from start to finish, is God’s work, and it is a work of grace. What, after all, is Righteousness? What is true Holiness? Christ is not righteous because He does righteous things; He does righteous things because He is Righteousness. Christ is not holy because He does holy things; He does holy things because He is Holiness. His "doing” flows out of His "being” ”“ and OUR "doing” flows out of His "being” as well.

How so? The old man (self) is put off, and the New Man (Christ) is put on ”“ this is Christianity. Christ then becomes my Righteousness and my Holiness. But too many of us take a natural, intellectual approach to Christianity. We think if only we can instruct people concerning the tenets of our faith, or persuade them with a logical argument, or woo them with some emotional plea, then we will have disciples. This is a falsehood. That is not Spirit and Life. Christianity is not memorizing certain doctrines or disseminating a systematic theology or having people repeat a so-called "Sinner’s Prayer”. Christianity is becoming one with a God-Man! You can have all the other in its proper place, but for too long that "other” has been offered as Christianity. And so people touch our beliefs, our doctrines, our religion, our theology, our zeal, but they do not touch a Living Christ."

That is what I am saying.

Good point, twayneb.

The most important part of this is that we must be willing to surrender our lives (and our will/wants) for our Lord.

When I gave my life to Jesus, I did just that -- I gave my life to him. I poured out my heart to him (alone in a field) and told him that I would give up everything that I was and everything that I could ever be if I could only know him and be his friend. I arose from my knees dead to my old self and suddenly alive -- a new creation.

As Leonard Ravenhill often said, repentance isn't just feeling that you're sorry for your sins. It's not just saying a prayer asking for forgiveness. It's believing in Christ enough to give your entire life to him.

Once this happens, we feel that "freedom" in Christ where the law of God is written in our hearts. It's not freedom to sin but freedom to be alive to God in Christ Jesus (Romans 6:1-14).

In this current world, I sometimes wonder whether people misunderstand the "freedom" that comes through Christ. I've seen people who even make excuses for sin by invoking their "freedom" via the "grace of God." Some, I fear, are awfully close to insulting the spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:1-31).

In the Old Covenant Law, God knew that his chosen people would sin in this world. That was the purpose of sacrifices at the Tabernacle and Temple. Forgiveness of sin and atonement were obtained in that manner. However, we have been redeemed. Our bodies are now the Temple of the Holy Spirit. We live in such a way as to come to him daily. We live our lives for him daily. We live with a sense of wanting to please him and forsaking our own sinful desires. Sometimes, we fall short. Yet, we boldly approach his throne of grace.

Thanks for pointing this out. The tablets of God's law are still written on paper; but, their eternal basis and meaning is only realized by hearts given to him.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:

"When I gave my life to Jesus, I did just that -- I gave my life to him. I poured out my heart to him (alone in a field) and told him that I would give up everything that I was and everything that I could ever be if I could only know him and be his friend. I arose from my knees dead to my old self and suddenly alive -- a new creation."

and

"Thanks for pointing this out. The tablets of God's law are still written on paper; but, their eternal basis and meaning is only realized by hearts given to him."

The key is the new birth/regeneration. Without the new birth the bible is a dead book. With the new birth it becomes a living book. One of the evidences one has been born again is the desire/hunger for the written word.

This thread is focused on justification by faith I believe. What about sanctification and what is the role of the written word in regards to sanctification?

[1Pe 2:2 KJV] [2] As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

[Jhn 17:17 KJV] [17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

twayneb wrote:

""Even those who have the Bible and study it are not governed by the Spirit of God if they are not walking in the Spirit. This is evidenced by the craziness that we see going on in the "church" world these days."

Does the craziness that we see happening in the church come from those who study the bible and know it? For example, LGBTQ (in the church) comes from people who reject the bible as being relevant for today. False gospels/cults come from people who twist the bible and then are believed by people who don't know their bibles to discern between the true and the false.

vern
At the beginning you wrote: "The purpose of everything is that God our Father might have what He wants. And what God wants above all is a Body, a visible form, through which He can be Himself inside of His creation..."
I can't find this in Scripture. "want" means "to be needy or destitute" . God doesn't need or lack anything.

You also wrote: "Jesus belongs to me..."
Paul wrote: "You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body..." 1 Corinthians 6:19”“20
In Romans 1:1 he wrote: "Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus..."
A servant (doulos) works for his Master.
Jesus will always be Supreme, King of Kings and Lord of Lords

You are mixing truth and error.
It is dangerous if you get your ideas just of some internet sites.

deogloria

I have not closely read all the posts in this thread so I am just responding strictly to this statement you made:

You also wrote: "Jesus belongs to me..."

I assume you reject this statement.

Do you reject these statements if I say:

(1) "The Lord Jesus is mine and I am His”.

Song of Song 2:16 ”“ My beloved is mine, and I am his………

(2) "I am the Lord Jesus’ and He is mine”.

Song of Songs 6:3 -- I am my beloved’s and my beloved is mine……

(3) "I am the Lord Jesus’ and His desire is for me”.

Song of Songs 7:10 ”“ I am my beloved’s, And his desire is for me.

Comment:

The Lord Jesus’ desire is for us to be in Him, in His name.

John 17:24 ”“
"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I AM, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Note: Caps "I AM” mine,

John 15:5 ”“
I am the vine, you are the branches……
v. 4 ”“
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

Comment:

The branch cannot be in the vine and cannot receive anything from the Vine if the branch does not belong to the Vine and the Vine does not belong to the branch. Of course, the Vine will forever be the Master and Lord of the branch. The branch will forever be the servant/slave of the Vine and will forever have nothing, just the Master Himself.

Now and forever, the Lord Jesus is all I have and want.

Ps. 73:25 ”“
Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.

John 1:16 ”“
For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

Thanks Jade
It dependes which definitions we apply and how we interpret some verses
"Jesus belongs to me..."
belong to (someone) : to be the property of (someone) : to be owned by (someone) (source:Britannica )
Jesus is not my property

Ps. 73:25 ”“Whom have I in heaven but You?
Pulpit Commentary
Who is there in all the host of heaven on whom I can place any reliance, excepting thee?

"Of course, the Vine will forever be the Master and Lord of the branch. The branch will forever be the servant/slave of the Vine..."
That is a good and easy to understand summery.
We are the branch, we will not become as the vine
And yet, we should still become more and more like Jesus.
This process of becoming more Christ-like is "sanctification.”Â To be sanctified is to become more dedicated to God and separated from sin It’s to live out the deep principles of salvation. In sanctification, believers become more like their Savior.

Thank you all, blessings

Markus

Markus,

Pulpit Commentary
Who is there in all the host of heaven on whom I can place any reliance, excepting thee?

That is not what Ps. 73:25 says. Ps. 73:25 is self-explanatory.

We are the branch, we will not become as the vine

Agree. The branch can never become the Vine. But the branch has the same life and nature as the Vine because it is the Vine’s own life and nature that fills the branch. That is Christ in me.

To be sanctified is to become more dedicated to God and separated from sin It’s to live out the deep principles of salvation. In sanctification, believers become more like their Savior.

And how, in your view, is that achieved?

Blessings

I want you to see the Lord's Body come to know as we are known of God; to live in the realization of a salvation, which is far removed from our own faces and defined in the face of Christ. The unfortunate situation is that our concept of salvation is living for God by attempting to self evidence the spiritual aspects and attributes of which we read in the scriptures. However, salvation is the Life, source, and meaning of which all those things testify, living in us. It is this realization in which the Spirit of God desires we live.

Jesus did not come to earth 2000 years ago and drop off an instruction manual on how to "live for God". Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago, brought all of Adam into the grave, and then came forth in resurrection to live and reign forever in His body - "Which is the church, the fullness of Him who fills all in all". (Eph 1:22) We were never meant to receive His life and continue to live by ours.

And the reason we all live most of our lives in the hopeless frustration of Romans 7:14-24 (where Paul describes what living for God is like in the flesh-saying "the good I want to do, I simply can't do it!) is because we have too often only heard the gospel preached as a path to heaven with a self-improvement plan along the way.

And what Paul describes in Romans 7:14-24 is what living as a Christian is like when we still understand ourselves to be married to the Law: when we don't see our death; when we don't know what it means to live by the life of another. In other words, Paul is telling us what it is like to try it when the old "I," the old man, is still trying to live for God. That's why he starts out that passage of Scripture defining the "I" as that "which is flesh, sold into bondage to sin". And then uses the word "I" according to that definition 23 times in those 10 verses. He's making a point here. His experience, and EVERYONE'S experience, when living for God in the flesh is an exasperating "wretched man that I am, who will save me from this body of death?"

His point in this is NOT that you would identify with it and say "I guess that's just how Christianity works". NO! It's that you would see the futility of trying to walk in the flesh after you've been born of the Spirit. It's so that you would cry out "Who will set me free from this body of death?"...and turn to know the Lord as your very life.

And this is exactly what the next chapter of Romans deals with. "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Thanks be to God that the body of this death was dealt with by the cross. Thanks be to God that I no longer have to walk in the flesh.

Rom 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did-so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit".

This is the glorious work of the cross. It brings us out of living in the flesh, into a participation in the life of Christ. It is not the imitation of Christ in the flesh; it is the impartation of Christ in the Spirit. The cross is the bridge, the ladder out of Adam, and into Christ. It's an escape out of one humanity into Another. It's an exodus out of Egypt and into the land that is Christ. It's the very ladder that Christ told Nathaniel that he would see. It is the flaming sword that guards the tree of life. (Genesis 3:24) And when you walk towards that tree, the sword cuts down the Adamic man, and the fire burns up the sacrifice.

The cross is literally an exodus out of one man, one life, one dwelling place, and into another. By the cross we have come to a new spiritual place to dwell in Christ. And this is exactly what the entire Bible speaks of with words like "Zion," "the mountain of the Lord," "the city of God," "heavenly Jerusalem," "the kingdom of God," "the land of promise".

Christ Himself has become the reality and fulfillment of the Land of Israel that Joshua brought the Israelites into. Christ is a land flowing with milk and honey. He's a land where you don't have to build your own cities, plant your own vineyards, or dig your own wells. He's a land where you can feed off of the produce of the land. He's a land where, just like Joshua showed us the moment he brought the Israelites over, the flesh profits nothing. Remember how Joshua had them all circumcised before they took one step in the Promised Land. The flesh profits nothing here! And this is fulfilled in us! Colossians tells us that "In Him (IN THE LAND!) you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ".

I may have wanted a practical instruction manual on how to live. But that is an Old Covenant mindset, because in this new relationship, the question is not "how," but "WHO". He is the life. You live in and by Him. He lives in you. And it is no longer a matter of instructions on how to modify natural behavior. Now it is the manifestation of the nature of Christ.

Let me say this very clearly. In the New Covenant, God is looking for a whole lot more than mere alterations to Adamic behavior. God is looking for His Son's life manifested in His Son's body, and we are that body.

Vern,
Perhaps your testimony of a recent personal experience of this being practically lived out would be helpful in illustrating that of which you speak 🙏🏻

Though salvation has you dead to Adam and alive to God in Christ, the Lie still reigns in the darkened understanding of the unrenewed mind. (that we can be good or please God independently from Him) As such, it is cast off only when the residue of the first man is washed from the soul in the coming of Light.

I will say this - I used to believe that Lie, but I no longer do. I have learned that I am nothing apart from God." No, I have not. But I cannot say that. It is not that kind of a lie. It is not an intellectual deception that I can decide to part with. It is not a lack of information or education. I cannot put off the power of this Lie until I have put off the fullness of that man. Nor can I say that you have learned the fullness of the Truth any more than I can say I have grown up into the fullness of Christ. This Lie is not something I merely stop believing. This Lie is someone who must stop living.

The situation was much worse than I understood. The problem was not something I thought, it was something I was. "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do." Thus the solution that the Lord presented was something far greater than spiritual facts. According to Jesus, knowing the truth is an encounter with the Son who sets you free from yourself.

What I am saying is that the Lie is so much more than an idea or concept in the brain. It is the darkness of the fallen adamic mind that is eaten alive by self-awareness and felt need. It is not just one of our thoughts; it is the foundation for all of our thinking. It is the starting point of all that we perceive - a universe where man is center stage. It is a world-view where man has purpose, value, life, wisdom, and destiny independent of God; it is a false light by which man is able to imagine a life and purpose that has nothing to do with truth. "If the Light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness" (Mat 6:23). This delusion cannot be overcome by coming to believe that there is such a Lie. It is dealt with only when the man who is the Lie is put away by the cross. The Lie is defeated when the nature of darkness is confronted and destroyed by the Person of Light. Man's only hope is to gain another light, to find another lens, to see all things out from another Man - one who has called Himself the Truth, a Man who said "I am the light of the world" (Joh 8:12).

The true knowing of Christ is a veritable journey out of one man and into Another. It is not just the pardoning of offenses but a new Life by which we live, a new lens through which we see, a new Light in which we walk. It is the experience of the cross. The cross exists as the instrument of God for the destruction of the Lie. It is not only where Jesus died for you; it is where you are crucified to the Lie and the Lie is crucified to you. It is how we are "delivered from the power of darkness"

(Col 1:13) and become sons of Light. "For you formerly were darkness, but are now light in the Lord; walk as children of light" (Eph 5:8).

Every act of the Spirit of God is toward this end. The primary and perpetual occupation of the Holy Spirit is to teach the cross to the souls of redeemed humanity. And one of the very first things that we face under His instruction and tuition is that our problem is not with lying. Our problem is that we are the Lie. This is precisely what the Spirit of God brings into view when Christ begins to be revealed in you (Gal 1:16). You come to realize that the problem is more than a lack of light. The problem is that even your light is darkness, even your "righteousness is filthy rags" (Isa 64:6), even your facts fall short of the truth. You are not struggling with darkness; you are the darkness that you struggle with. By nature we are the darkness into which Christ must come and shine unto our displacement. The Light shows you to be the Lie and deals with you by the death of the cross. The cross of Christ is God's remedy to the Serpent's lie.

That's a good way to put it Vern, when man fell from Grace God pronounced the curse of corruption over mankind, and the very existence of the carnal nature and the natural man became so connected with the original lie that you can't really tell where one begins in the other ends. They are all one and the same.The very fallen nature of man without the gracious influence of God express nothing but the lie and the evil that goes with that lie.

That's why Paul said in me that is in my flesh nothing good dwells, and this fallen nature is so connected to the body that he even goes on to say flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom, he goes on to say, well Jesus said the sons of the resurrection would be like angels there has to be a complete redemption and transformation of the body and the nature which obviously leads to a full redemption of creation we hear it grown and see it grown with birth pains until the revealing of the sons of God. And it's not Gnosticism to suggest this, it's clearly taught by the apostle Paul and even Jesus.
So the life of Adam is to be completely rejected and not seen as pleasing towards God, without faith it is impossible to please God and this Faith has been measured to each one of the believers through the power of the holy spirit and the beginning of the new creation. The heavenly man is our
Lineage, and the coming Glory of Christ and our new bodies which are heavenly bodies far exceed as the heavens a higher than the Earth the fallen creation and even far exceed the creation of the original Adam who was only living Soul, rather than a life-giving spirit as our savior is, Everlasting father our Prince of peace, our wonderful counselor our mighty God.

We need to understand and experience the reality of the Light that displaces the Lie. However, if we begin by underestimating the power and effect of the Lie, then we will unknowingly seek to build truth upon it. Facts that are laid upon a false foundation are powerless. In this way, Christianity, regardless of how accurate our doctrines, can be a meaningless encounter with words, rather than an experience of the Spirit of Truth filling our souls with Himself. Truth is a Person - not words about a Person, and you come to know the Person of Truth only when He floods the darkness of your soul with His marvelous Light.

Have you ever needed to see and experience the power of the Truth? Have you ever been desperate to know something more real than your pain, your circumstances, even your very self? I have known some difficult times in my life where I wrestled with fear and confusion and significant inward torment. I remember in many of those times crying out to the Lord in the words of 43:3 Oh, send out Your light and Your truth! Let them lead me; Let them bring me to Your holy hill and to Your dwelling place.

I wish I would have known in those times, in all of my praying, fasting, and pleading, that before Truth could ever right my emotions and overcome my circumstances, it had to show me a lie that had saturated my soul. There was a lie that was even deeper than my pain. It had filled and formed my perception. It had named my world the wrong name, and it was too familiar to recognize. I could not see the forest for the trees.

Light Transforms The Soul

Jesus said, "You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (Joh 8:32). Much of my life was spent searching for something more than Truth to transform my soul and teach me freedom. It did not seem possible that Truth alone had the power to do this, but this was because I confused the mind's acknowledgment of facts with the soul's encounter with God's living Word. When the mind becomes aware of facts, it sorts them and seeks to make application. But when the soul discovers Christ by the revealing of the Spirit, it falls as one dead and realizes it can do nothing except by Him.

Facts learned by the mind, regardless of how accurate, cannot change you. They can convince, excite, motivate, and instruct, but they cannot transform the soul. Though we learn much in this way, the honest heart cannot help but realize that something more is needed. Something more must be available. In time, we become aware of our deficiency and set out to find more. But too often the hungry soul is ushered down one of many roads that lead to nowhere. We run after conferences, chase "anointed" leaders, and read every new "Christian-living" book that hits the shelf. We give ourselves to prayer, fasting, study, and self-discipline but often to no avail. These things done out from the wrong man and towards the wrong end turn out to be works of the flesh rather than experiences and expressions of the Spirit.

It is the power of Truth and how it makes us free. That Truth transforms the soul because it shows us a finished work. God's Light does not show you what should or could be. God's Light reveals what already is. And when you see in this way, you find that Truth makes its own application to your soul.

The Holy Spirit in us is the basis, the beginning, and the power of our sanctification and glorification. How it is manifested, in the reality of our daily living, has been the recurrent point of discussions in this forum:

1. What is the role of a christian so that the new life or new heart will be visible in our lives, do we just passively expect or observed it.

2. What is the role of the scriptures in bringing this reality, for us and the world to see. Do we still need our bibles.

3. With the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, is this reality just limited for moral changes, does it include healing and other supernatural manifestations.

4. Why do we still sin and many christians still feel wretched, what do we have to do or advice other believers who are caught up with these.

5. What is the persisting role of grace, faith, forgiveness, and repentance in our sanctification until we are finally glorified.

6 How is sanctification different in the old covenant.

All of this discussion of Adam and his judgment is that we might better understand the nature of the first man that lives by the Lie. That nature is indeed dead to God, judged of God, and alienated from God but nevertheless is active and thriving, even in the souls of the redeemed, to whatever measure it has not been destroyed by Light in the revealing of Christ.

If you are born again, you are no longer Adam by nature. "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" (2Co 5:17). Regardless of how you may feel, what you have done, or what you have or have not comprehended by faith, you have unquestionably made the exodus out of the "first" and into the "second" through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. God knows you and relates to you according to what He has done and what is real and true in Christ. In relation to you, He does not recognize what He has judged and put away from Himself. So "there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom 8:1).

Nevertheless, what God has put away through the cross will continue to work in your soul and define your reality until Light shines and displaces the darkness. Though born of God's Spirit, you will walk in the Lie to the degree that the eyes of your heart have not seen God's finished work.

Believers often ask - "If Adam is dead and I am a new creation in Christ, why is it that I still act so much like Adam? Adam seems to be very much alive in me!" The problem is not that somehow Adam has escaped judgment. The problem is that we misunderstand Adam's death. We read the word "dead" and assume it implies an immediate cessation of activity. Make no mistake, Adam is entirely without Life and judged of God. Yet you and I who are born again begin our life in Christ with a spiritually blind and Lie-infested adamic mind. This is no different than how a human baby enters the world. A newborn baby comes from the womb fully alive. He or she is not in need of more life. That is not their problem. Their one all-consuming deficiency and weakness is that they have absolutely no comprehension of either the life that they have, or the realm into which they have been born. They have only a slight comprehension of womb-life that now is utterly unhelpful and altogether irrelevant to growing up and prospering in the earth.

This is exactly how we begin in Christ. If only we would approach our new birth with such an awareness of our complete ignorance and desperate need of Light. Though we are born of His Seed and a partaker of His nature, the adamic mind is utterly unhelpful and altogether irrelevant to growing up and prospering in Christ. Worse than that, "the carnal mind is enmity against God" (Rom 8:7) . And so until God's Light teaches us the Person and realm into which we have been born, will live by the Lie that we have known.

Very simply, you act like Adam because the Lie is still far more real to you than the Light. You act like Adam because, though you have been born of the Truth, the Lie is still the lens through which you know most things. Growing up in Christ is not a matter of getting more of something you do not have. You will never have more of Christ than you do the moment you are born again. Growing up in Christ is learning the Person and Place into which you have been born and abiding in Him. Spiritual maturity involves Light showing you what and where you are. Until it shines, we will continue to act like Adam because his Lie is all that we have known.

What does it mean when it speaks of being dead to something? Consider what happens at death. There is a spirit living in a body. At death, the spirit leaves the body so that it no longer has a relationship with it. In just the same way, since we are now dead to sin through the Cross of Christ, we no longer have a relationship (legal, moral or in any agreement with) sin.

One of the worst illustrations or analogies that I was given as a young Christian was the idea that since we are dead to sin it is exactly like how a dead body CANNOT respond in any way when jabbed with a needle. This sort of teaching was rampant among holiness groups in the early part of the 20th century. From this erroneous teaching I was under the impression that being dead to sin meant that I could not or would not be tempted to sin. And so I was trying and trying and trying to RECKON myself dead until temptation was no longer a thing.

Now when I reckon myself dead to sin I treat all temptations to sin with EXTREME INDIFFERENCE because that is just not something in my wheelhouse anymore. I found that if I thought it necessary to muster all kinds of brute strength to resist or overcome sinful desires, I would fail. And the reason that is so is because behind that kind of strategy is a subconscious belief that sin has power over the believer and must be resisted with much self effort.

Reckon is a word for a type of faith that means 'consider it so'. The Bible makes plain that faith and works are like oil and water. They don't mix and are inherently different. And if I reckon myself dead to sin, I consider it a fact and SIMPLY DISMISS sinful temptation as being foreign to my nature and having no value to me. No struggle is necessary.

But to successfully walk in this type of faith we have to align our heart, mind and will with the value system of the spirit as opposed to that of the flesh. If you secretly treasure the things of the flesh in your heart, you will fail and your sin will find you out. That is why Paul emphasizes the mind of the spirit and the mind of the flesh so much in Romans 8.

See yourself as in Christ having the same value system as Him. You will perform according to how you consistently see yourself as being. Let your self image be that as someone IN CHRIST.

-Daniel

John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." That word "know" is used in this verse and that is extremely important. Knowing the Truth is not the acquisition of information, but it is participation with the Truth Himself. That inward participation with the Truth is the only thing that is capable of transforming the soul of the believer. I love the fact that he stresses the absolute inability for even one who has "tasted and seen," to ever impart that reality into someone else. That seems to be our concept. We seem to think that we can communicate the reality into the souls of people.

Many think that we can exhibit spiritual reality through what we do, by how much we love, or even the external activities in which we involve ourselves. That is not the case. If you are experiencing salvation, that experience is due to the work of the Spirit wherein Christ is revealed in your soul. In His revealed presence, you are experiencing Him, yet you cannot make that experience anyone else's. Each soul must know reality for itself and that necessitates that soul's submission in absolute dependence upon the Spirit of Truth, that He may make known in us the reality that only He knows. That is the direction that we must give to a heart that desires to know and experience the greatness of salvation.

Information becomes a detriment if it does not also give direction. In other words, speaking about and describing the aspects of a perfect salvation is of no effectual consequence if it is not coupled with directing the heart of the hearer to turn his heart so that the Spirit of God may make known the eternal and essential substance that the words could merely illustrate. The Christian world is overloaded with instruction and steps for spiritual achievement. However, most have never been directed to turn their hearts unto the Father that He may unveil their hearts to see and know the Great Salvation embodied in the indwelling Christ.