Eternal Security – For All Who Follow Jesus by Zac Poonen

One of the last promises in the epistles is that the Lord "is ABLE to keep us from falling” (Jude 24). This is true - the Lord is certainly able to keep us from falling. But if we do not yield ourselves completely to Him, He will not be able to keep us from falling - for He never forces His will on anyone.

Amen.

Every disciple of Jesus who is following Him is eternally secure.

COMMENT:

The Lord Jesus Himself laid down this requirement for discipleship:

John 15:8 ”“
My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

John 15:5 ”“
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Therefore, we are disciples of Christ only if we are bearing much fruit by constantly abiding in Christ and Christ in us

Can a believer be cut off?

These are the words of Christ Himself:

John 15:6 ”“
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Comment:
These branches that are thrown away were believers because only believers can be branches in Christ, the Vine. But they stopped abiding in Christ.

Therefore, only those who are bearing fruit by constantly abiding in Christ and Christ in them have eternal security.

Paul says that he fears that Satan will deceive us and draw us away from simple devotion to Christ, even as Satan deceived Eve. Eve was in paradise and was deceived by Satan ”“ and was driven out of paradise by God.

Eve was deceived because she was joined to Adam who was as weak and unstable as she was.

Adam was not a rock of salvation for Eve and she could be moved.

The only way not to sin is to be joined to Christ and be in Him.

1 Cor. 1:30 ”“
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Christ alone is the Rock of our salvation and in Him alone we will not be moved.

The Lord Jesus said, "Apart from Me you can do nothing."

"Nothing” means absolutely nothing.

It includes not being able to resist Satan and be deceived as Satan deceived Eve.

Therefore, we must be constantly abiding in Christ and Christ in us.

Both Adam and Eve were driven out of paradise.

Paradise is open again only to the new creation IN Christ.

Amen!

Sister Jade,

I think Scripture says Eve was deceived because she wanted to be like God. Her desire was to climb as Satan did. Adam wasn’t deceived. He probably merely cared more for Eve than for God. 1 Cor 7. That is what stole his sincere and pure devotion to the Lord above all else. I’m not sure where your conclusion comes from. Eve was responsible for her sin as Adam was for his. Each had their own self deception.

Undivided devotion to Jesus will produce the fruit and increasing character of Christ to the end. The means of His "keeping” are varied. Our eyes on Him, our hope in a better possession and city, the Spirit revealing, strengthening, correcting, putting to death the flesh, and guiding, the great cloud of witnesses, the encouragement of and building up by the ministry of the saints to one another, our striving and making every effort, and even the endurance produced by His discipline through the suffering He designed for our conformity to Jesus.

I agree with brother Zac generally, but there is so much to His keeping. Such an important topic deserves the whole counsel of God.

Hi Robert,

Adam wasn’t deceived. He probably merely cared more for Eve than for God. 1 Cor 7. That is what stole his sincere and pure devotion to the Lord above all else.

But why didn’t Adam care more for God than he cared for Eve after she had been deceived?

Christ, the Second Man, was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).

Why didn’t, or couldn’t, Adam, the first man, destroy the works of the devil after Eve was deceived?

Christ, the Second Man, did not fail.

John 14:30-31 ”“
I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me; but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.

Why did Adam, the first man, fail?

The means of His "keeping” are varied. Our eyes on Him, our hope in a better possession and city, the Spirit revealing, strengthening, correcting, putting to death the flesh, and guiding, the great cloud of witnesses, the encouragement of and building up by the ministry of the saints to one another, our striving and making every effort, and even the endurance produced by His discipline through the suffering He designed for our conformity to Jesus.

Robert, you left this out:

John 15:5-6 ”“
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Do you reject this? That is, do you maintain that we still have Christ’s keeping even if He is not abiding in us and we are not abiding in Him?

Jade,

I agree with everything you said except for the part about why Eve sinned. Adam was an idolator to self and so was Eve.

I also agree with abiding in Jesus as absolutely necessary. I left it out because you already mentioned it. There's just a lot at work to keep us in Him which is why I listed all that I did. Finishing the race is a Kingdom Family effort involving the Trinity, the individual and the Body. The reason for that is that finishing the race is not just "not falling away". Finishing the race is being conformed to His image, Christ likeness, glorification. To finish well and not be disqualified early involves many and much effort. That's why I said His keeping of us involves the whole counsel of God on the subject. There's a lot more to it than just referencing abiding or devotion. It's all of God of course, but there are many involved.

I wondered if you could tell me why you believe that the harlot, mystery Babylon, is the church of Christ. I'm typing on a small screen so not able to say very much very fast.
Thanks!

Hi BranchInVine,
So their are very few disciples on SI or in the body if thats the full conclusion, if any.

"Therefore, we are disciples of Christ only if we are bearing much fruit by constantly abiding in Christ and Christ in us"
Their has to be room for falling and failing.

General comment about the thread.

None of the comments on the thread deal with "How do you measure saving grace?".
Because if you cant measure saving grace then you cant lose your salvation.
The problem with alot of SI members who believe in losing ur salvation is that they see themselves holier than those who say they cant lose their salvation.Instead of "working out their salvation in fear and trembling" they end up working to earn their salvation,an age old trap.
They use unbiblical terms like "hyper grace" but all the while still maintaining that they "go strictly by the book"
I learned of one guy who had some mental issues who spent years in further distress because the Church he went too preached that you can lose your salvation ,leaving the guy in a worse state than he was before he went to that Church.
So you have to understand that Christians who believe in "once saved always saved" sees the opposite of this "you can lose your salvation" as a deception into living life under works and not grace.

Apart from Christ we can do nothing but that doesnt mean Christ isnt right beside us when we cry for help.If we cant turn to Christ at any stage(repent) then we cant repent at all.All Christians have been decieved by Satan at some stage in their lives but maybe SI Christians and Zac Poonen are better Christians than us mere mortals(not eternally)....
urs staff

Hi staff,

How eagerly will Christians jump on the OSAS wagon to enter a heaven that will be populated with sinners to escape the hell they consign others to.

How furiously they reject Patristic Universalism (that Dukster raised in another thread) that will see heaven populated with holy people of God.

When was the command given to hate your neighbour and love yourself?

Thanks, Robert, for clarifying.

There's a lot more to it than just referencing abiding or devotion.

John 15:5 ”“
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Comment:
Without the abiding, nothing can be done. Therefore the abiding is of first and utmost importance.

To finish well and not be disqualified early involves many and much effort.

Comment:
The fight is a fight of faith (2 Tim. 4:7-8), fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith (Heb.12:2). God’s promises are inherited through faith and patience (Heb.6:12).

I agree with everything you said except for the part about why Eve sinned. Adam was an idolator to self and so was Eve.

Comment:
Eve was taken out of Adam and was bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh and they were "one flesh” (Gen.2:21-24). Therefore, Adam and Eve would have the same nature, the same "DNA”. And therefore, Adam could not save Eve because they were of the same kind. What she desired he also desired. What seemed good to her also seemed good to him.

Hi Branchinvine,
Work work work to get to heaven and earn your salvation ,forget what Jesus did on the cross ,it doesnt matter to the youcanloseyoursalvation I made myself holy crew,
You can love your neighbour OSAS doesnt rule that command out,
urs staff

Hi staff,

Phil. 2:13 ”“
…………it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Without holiness no one will see God (Heb. 12:14).

Hi BranchinVINE,
Its Christ's Holiness that saves not mine,urs staff

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Brothers and Sisters,

A sincere and loving question for two thread running now on the forum:

Do those who desire to be saved need, in an essential way, to file sin and chase after holiness, to make every effort and make it their goal to pursue perfection, and to make every effort to add in increasing measure godliness, in faith upon the in dwelling Spirit and God’s promises ? And conversely, laziness in such effort at failure to pursue with focus and every effort result in not being saved.

Lest the reply is made that this is human works, please know the cross and the new covenant in his blood is God’s provision that makes this goal and prize the path of salvation possible and gives assurance when this race is run that entry into heaven is provided.

Universalism is precluded by this doctrine of Christ in me by the blood of the covenant as the source work and provision towards salvation. Also, His keeping is in essence, His making me holy, perfect, mature and Christlike which is complete when the sons of Glory are revealed upon receipt at-the final consummation when we receive glorious resurrected bodies when we see Him face to face Those with a good recall of Scripture, will recognize every word on this post is a summary in close approximation to many verses only listed in a connected way.

There is eternal security for the believer- but that begs the question of what a believer is.

But staff is right- no one who believes salvation can be lost thinks they are in that camp, just as no Calvinistic thinks they are not one of the elect.

He is also right that believing is on a sort of continuum. We have ups and downs in our Christian walks and we stumble sometimes very badly. Then we proceed onto the mountaintop only to slide back down again.

Thank God it is He who judges as only He can know a man’s heart and He also knows our weaknesses.

Hi staff,

Its Christ's Holiness that saves not mine

Agree.

But Christ’s holiness must be *** IN *** us, by grace through faith.

2 Cor. 13:5 (KJV) ”“
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

If Christ’s holiness is not IN a professing Christian, that person is a reprobate.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Comment:
But we can separate ourselves from God by ceasing to abide in Christ.

Todd,

We have ups and downs in our Christian walks and we stumble sometimes very badly. Then we proceed onto the mountaintop only to slide back down again.

Phil. 3:12-14 ”“
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Still fighting the good fight. Still running in the race of faith!

Hi Branchinvine,
Yeah Paul is asking the question in expectation that the hearer will say no we are not reprobates,we do have Christ in us.Its not at all proof you can lose your salvation.

2 Cor. 13:5 (KJV) ”“
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

What Scriptures are you using for this statement?(that are not circular reasoning that is)
But we can separate ourselves from God by ceasing to abide in Christ

Also how do you measure Grace?Unanswered question which you declined to answer earlier,
urs staff

Hi again,
The gospel in a way is a "works gospel",in the sense that God wants you and me to work to be like him or to be holy but its not a "works gospel" in the sense that we have to work to be saved into eternity.I like the saying "I am saved","I am being saved" and "I will be saved"
I am saved when I accept Christ ,I am being saved daily as I go through this world with Christ and ultimately I will be saved out of this world when I die or when he comes back again.
The bible is very clear on alot of subjects
Like "You shall not steal"is crystal clear for instance but on the subject of salvation their is not a sentence that says for instance "You can lose your salvation if you are born again" or if I flip it on its head "You can never lose your salvation if you are born again".
So from my point of view teaching you can lose your salvation is just a works gospel or ends up a works gospel in my opinion.
Both beliefs seems to have a problem to overcome.On the one hand OSAS seems to mean that every behaviour is permitable and the anti OSAS seems to say the only way to heaven is to work your way to heaven and dont change ur mind on the last day of your life.
Because I have not found a way to measure grace then I go with everything is permissable but not everything is profitable.We being lovers of Christ want to please him and although we fall and fail when we dont follow him as closely as we should we are still saved but learn I think over time to want the profitable things.
Now if other Christians feel like their intrepretation is that you can lose your salvation ,I mean I dont agree with them but thats what they think and they are also lovers of Christ.
Its just we have to respond I think to set the record straight to those who feel that they are holier than we are just because we do not believe in losing their salvation.
I dont think anyone can say the bible is crystal clear 100% on the subject without any debate.If it were that clear then their would be no debate between true born again believers,
urs staff

Hi Staff,

Here’s a passage to unpack.

3 His divine power has given us everything required for life and godliness through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 By these he has given us very great and precious promises, so that through them you may share in the divine nature, escaping the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with goodness, goodness with knowledge, 6 knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with godliness, 7 godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being useless or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 The person who lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten the cleansing from his past sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election, because if you do these things you will never stumble. 11 For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you.

12 Therefore I will always remind you about these things, even though you know them and are established in the truth you now have. 13 I think it is right, as long as I am in this bodily tent, to wake you up with a reminder, 14 since I know that I will soon lay aside my tent, as our Lord Jesus Christ has indeed made clear to me. 15 And I will also make every effort so that you are able to recall these things at any time after my departure. -- 2 Peter 1:3-15 (CSB)

This passage undeniably says that entry into heaven is predicated on making every effort to increase in godliness. I am of the view that those who have entered into the new covenant (cleansed, new heart, new spirit, indwelling Holy Spirit) will make every effort and likewise increase in virtue because they embrace the command, live by His power and promises and race to the perfection He has planned for those who love Him and are in the Son. But, the warning to those who think they can believe and coast or as Paul was concerned that He might be disqualified at the end of his journey must stand as a real concern and motivating concern. Presumption will end the journey. The idea that entry to the kingdom is dependent only on being forgiven negates the fullness of God’s intention in the new covenant in his blood and denies His plan of conformity to Christ.

The western church in many circles has by neglect and a false compassion stood in the Lord’s way of presenting to Jesus a pure, spotless and holy Bride to the eternal loss of many. God will train his people in righteousness or they are illegitimate children.

I'm not in any camp and I'm not a Calvinist. Just a "learner and a follower", aka a Disciple.
But, as I already posted in the other thread, if I stop trusting, I also will be cut off, according to Rom. 11:22
Or we are disciples of Christ only if we are abiding in Christ (from John 15:6)

Markus

staff,

Ps. 51:6 ”“
Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being (Or inward parts)

What Scriptures are you using for this statement?(that are not circular reasoning that is)
But we can separate ourselves from God by ceasing to abide in Christ

John 15:6 ”“
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Also how do you measure Grace?

The grace God has for us is immeasurable.

It is the surpassing riches of grace in Christ (Eph. 2:7).

We receive the grace of God out of the fullness of Christ (John 1:16).

But if we do not abide in Christ and are thrown away as branches (John 15:6), how can we receive the grace out of the fullness of the Vine if we are no longer branches in the Vine?

Hi BranchinVine,
Again this verse only shows that non Christians are not abiding in Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Grace is immeasurable thats why we have Eternal Security without working for it,
urs staff

Hi CofG,
None of that is talking about Eternal Security.
Its talking about the Kingdom which we enter here on Earth while we are living or as I said before "being saved" in the present.Its talking about ,stumbling,fruitfulness,endurance etc and he still is calling them brothers and sisters even though he obviously thought that they needed to hear the message.He is talking about how to live a complete life in Christ.
God will train his children in righteousness but some children learn the hard way and some the easy way.
All things will go through the fire and all that is not of the Lord will be burned up for some what is left is Salvation through Christ the sacrifice for others they will have blessings in this life and more in the next,
urs staff
p.s
Show me a sentence in the bible that says exactly
"You can lose your salvation" or a sentence that exactly says "you cant lose your salvation"???

1Co 9:27 - but I strictly discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Hi CofG,
Not to be disqualified from Eternity is the point but disqualified from the race,This is not about Eternity,h

Hi CofG,
Was that your clear sentence?
urs staff

HI Staff, read Hebrews 12 for clarity about the "race" and salvation. The two would seem from a plain reading to definitely be connected. Read all of Hebrews 6-12 which is a unit and this is very clearly the case

Like I said before, the warnings to persevere and endure to the end are real for those truly in the blood covenant and they will respond to such warnings and not ignore them. Nonetheless, the danger is real.

The warnings of Scripture about continuing in fruit bearing,
not drawing back in the face of persecution from continuing to serve the saints, of not denying Him before men, the testing of our faith unto shedding of blood are all real concerns that Jesus wanted to forewarn even His closest disciples of as he did in Matthew 10 and 24.

Those with new hearts will respond to those warnings but this does not detract from the reality of the dangers warned against and the purposes and intended affect of the warnings.

Staff, I would also suggest this passage of clear evidence of the point:

Rom 11:19-22

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”-Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear- for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off.

And this one spoken to the apostles:

Matthew 5:13. You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how [fn]can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by people.

Hi staff

Again this verse only shows that non Christians are not abiding in Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

John 15:5 ”“
I am the vine, you are the branches;

Was Jesus talking to non-Christians? Can there be non-Christian branches in God’s heavenly Vine? Are non-Christians joined to Christ?

Grace is immeasurable thats why we have Eternal Security without working for it,

Eph. 2:8-10 ”“
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Note:
We are not saved as a result of our works but we are saved for good works by grace.

Matt. 25:33,
……and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
…………… Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’

Who are those going into the eternal fire? They are those who do not have good works!!! Faith without works is dead.

Hi again,
The problem here is that their are no verses saying exactly
"You can lose your salvation" or "You cant lose your salvation"
If it were clear as you say then their would be no debate between true believers.
I can only say that I believe the lose your salvation gospel is or ends up or can end up being a works gospel and I believe nothing can separate us from Christ not even ourselves.
Its not surprizing that you can lose your salvation believers also for the most part believe in the post tribulation(for another day) as both beliefs to me have a joylessness about them but I accept others have their own opinions.
I do accept that the OSAS have a crazy section of people attached or attracted to them including many dubious preachers and prosperity preachers which are obviously wrong and would not be attracted to the opposite beliefs.
To the credit of the SI members who belief you can lose their salvation it appears mostly out of a deep love for the body and for Christ but when I weigh it all up I fall down firmly on OSAS.A point that I feel I missed is that most of the holiest people I know are OSAS,they dont go off the deep end and are always working on being in a close relationship with Christ just as much as Christians with the opposite view,
urs staff

staff-

I am curious if you think a person who is a true Christian today can stop believing at some point in the future.

Hi TMK,
No I dont see how a true Christian could stop believing in God.Lose faith ,do bad things ,not fulfill their calling,lose their way become as the prodigal son etc yes but deep down you know what you know and if God has revealed himself to you then how can he unreveal himself,
urs staff

Thanks staff. I think that’s the crux of the issue which is why I said that eternal security is for the believer.

I heard someone say once that we are saved by faith, not works, but we aren’t saved unless our faith works.

Hi Staff,

Just to be clear then, this passage does not apply to true believers in your opinion ?

Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” True enough; they were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but beware, because if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you ”‹”” ”‹if you remain in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off."

It says, "you stand by faith...but beware...Otherwise you too will be cut off."

If so, then the conclusion must be that people with false faith can be "grafted in". Not sure how one can say that Biblically about those not born again, how they can be said to be one spirit with the Lord in union with Him.

The thing I really want to stress is that those who say the warnings of Scripture to His followers to be careful let they fall ( and there are many ) aren't really applicable to "true" believers are robbing the church in a very needed time of the concern, care and fear they should have to remain faithful in the very challenging times that are here and will only get worse.

Believers need to be compelled by love but much of the time, in times of serious persecution, Jesus was warning His people in the Gospels, Epistles and especially Revelation, to get their lives lined up with His expectations or else. This choice between fearing God or fearing man is so important to keep His people faithful in distress. That's not my opinion. There are tons of Scripture to this effect.

If you undercut those warnings by saying they aren't for true believers, then one isn't wrestling with soteriological issues, but rather one may, in a real sense if one is wrong, be opposing God and His chosen and necessary means to keep His people faithful to Him when all hell is breaking forth against them. That is what I am arguing for. This isn't just a soteriology exercise. It has real implications for the time we are in and what is coming. This is about loving the church and helping her overcome and "remain" faithful. The importance of this issue is so prevalent in the NT. The argument you are putting forth renders all the warnings to God's children to be toothless and mere hyperbole. I know that is not your intent. I don't question your sincere and good intention whatsoever. But the effect is nonetheless harmful.

Hi TMK
But thats not scripture

I heard someone say once that we are saved by faith, not works, but we aren’t saved unless our faith works.
urs staff

Hi CofG
That scripture is for believers and is Paul showing how God dealt with the Israelites and that he will deal with gentiles too but is not talking about salvation of the individual new testament believer.

If has you assert that the scripture is about salvation then a few lines later you have to assert that this is also about individual new testament salvation where it says they who were cut off could be grafted in again.This according to your view would show that you can lose your salvation and regain it again according to their state of unbelief and could in theory according to their "belief state" be in a cycle of im saved ,im not saved etc

23And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Paul is talking about groups not individuals and Romans 11 is about Israelites and the Gentiles.

25Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel

urs staff
P.s
The warnings of God to the individual are not toothless as anyone who has followed God and failed or fallen knows ,their are consequences but this scripture was for a group explaining what happened to Israel as a group

Paul was writing to the Roman saints Staff. What you’ve said is a most strained view in order to avoid an obvious understanding. Groups are not hardened. Hearts are. If the Roman church believer falls away from his faith, then he will be broken off. The word "remain” is so key to apply the Scripture. You have left it out to accommodate a dearly held doctrine. The warnings can only be real if the possibility of what is warned against is real. I appreciate the exchange but I think the HS will need to work on one of us. I will consider your interpretation of the matter.

Hi CofG
I dont think its strained at all in my view.I dont think what I am saying is controversial in any real way.I think most commentaries from all persuasions would say this is about Israel's role and future and on how we the gentile Church should act regarding Israel.

Romans 11 is about what happens to Israel as people group and a warning to the Romans who would be classified as Gentiles another people group.
Look at Romans 11:11 Paul is clearly addressing Gentiles and Israel
Romans 11:11
11So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

Paul is warning if God can deal with Israel like he has done then he can also deal with the Gentiles including Romans similarly.I am guessing now that in some way the Romans now thought they were greater in some way than the Israelites and Paul was addressing their arrogance in thinking so.
He says dont be arrogant towards the roots as the roots support you.
He was showing that the Israelites had a future in Gods plan.
The warning does have teeth and bite as he is saying if God cut off the Israelites then God can cut off the Gentiles.

Its not however individual salvation that is cut off.This chapter a wonderful chapter is about what happens Israel and a warning to the gentiles not to be arrogant because salvation has come to them and away from Israel for a time,urs staff