Millennial Reign

Brothers and sisters,

It's been a minute since I've posted. I used to be "letsgetbusy" on this site. I had elevated blood pressure so now I'm chillnerd because I need to be for my health. I still think we should be about our Father's business, but primarily leaning on Him; so now a have to be "chill."

So anyway, I used to ask others to paint out the end times for me. It's a few years later and I have since taught a class at church on the Millennial Reign. I have a good friend who is has a theology pHD and is a VP at the college I go to that would attend some of my classes so I couldn't just "wing it" (ha ha).

My question was always, can someone lay out for me the end times something like:
A) rapture
B) Bema judgement
etc, etc

Well, after studying the Scripture off and on for a good few years and asking pastors and people I thought were smarter than me, and listening to probably way too much Chuck Missler (he's the man), I have come to a place where I at least have a skeleton to hang the meat on:

A) Rapture
B) Bema seat judgment (above the earth in the heavenly realm)
C) first 3.5 years of seven year tribulation start
D) Jews on earth that have heard the Gospel realize Jesus was the Messiah
E) One world religion and one world government begin to take shape
F) Third temple is built under leadership of the Beast
G) The Beast stands in the Third Temple and declares himself to be God
H) We return with Christ according to Rev 19 at end of 7 year tribulation
I) A literal / physical thousand year Reign with Jesus present begins
J) Events of Revelation 20 take place (just read it)
K) Zech 14 appearance of Jesus on Mount of Olive takes place (BOOM baby!)
L) There is a literal/physical resurrected David on the earth that leads Israel
M) Prophecies of Old Testament take place (wolf and lamb, 100 yr old child)
N) People are born during this time that, of course, are not saved
O) Passover is reinstated as a memorial to the cross
P) Nations gather around Jerusalem and people give homage to the Lord
Q) Nations that reject Christ are plagued
R) Resurrected Israel is now on earth with Christ, David, us, and enemies
S) Temple is open to outsiders but only on certain days
T) Enemy nations gather around Jerusalem (again)
U) They are "burnt up" by the Lord
V) The unsaved dead are resurrected for the final "white throne" judgment
W) Death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire
X) All who are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life are cast in with them
Y) New heavens and new earth are brought into being
Z) We spend eternity with the Godhead w/ Hebrew and Gentile aspects

(EDIT: for G, it should not be the Beast but rather the Antichrist that stands in the temple and declares himself to be God. I think that the Beast for sure is a person, but he may manifest as a religious / political entity. I got that from David Wilkerson's "The Vision". He gave a prophecy in 1974 that has become about 90% true, by the way. I don't know if I agree with 100% of it, but I'll say that regardless of what you think about the message or him, he predicted that gender lines would blur and gay clergy would be ordained 50 years ago, check it out.)

This is the Premillennial View with the Amillennial View removing events A through U (no rapture, the Lord just comes), and the Postmillennial View not having the rapture to occur until sometime during the 7 year tribulation or at its end. These views depend on what you believe about many Old Testament passages. "Pre" means that you take them literally or in a "straightforward" manner, whereas the "A" Millennial View states that those passages are more or less poetic, and not meant to be taken literally (this view says Jesus is ruling and reigning right now). The "Post" view is simply the belief that Christianity and our endeavors will gain more and more momentum and culminate with the coming of our Lord with no tribulation period (this would be awesome but this leaves literally hundreds of Old Testament passages, like Zechariah 14:4, unfulfilled).

I have a very thorough teaching on Israel that I will post soon. It takes about 4 one hour sessions. I learned things in this study that I don't think I will ever hear from anyone (like where the word "Hebrew" came from and what it means, etc). Then this class above takes about an hour and is the 5th class. The Millennial Reign should be viewed as the "final step" of Israel on earth, and is the culmination of passages like Romans 9-11 (if you buy into the "Pre" view).

I have not taken the time to compare the above view to the "Schofield" or "Wesleyan" version or any of the old timers, simply because none of them laid out something like this. I'm not going to spend a year compiling what they believed when Scripture should be what we're studying instead of what a person came up with. Frankly, I don't think many of them felt solid enough to post it this way. I have put together beginnings of what is above and people at Sunday School would tell me what I was putting together would tell me how I was wrong, and instead of correcting them, I would often go back to the Scripture and answer them (in a sense) by finding out what the Scripture says, step by step; not what a person puts together (yes, I realize a person put the above together, ha ha...). I have just always believed that there was a framework in the biblical text but you have to dig for it.

I am open to correction, as always. I would just invite you to find your agreement or disagreement in the WORD, not from a person or a novel or a movie. I would also invite you to take much of the Old Testament literally. If you take much of the Old Testament passages poetically, I would just ask why God would take the time to have Zechariah write the Hebrew words that our Lord would "stand" on the Mount Olives and it would crack in half (!!!!), and to then just have us to take statements like this as poetry. It simply just doesn't make sense that God would take the time to write all these things (like a literal / resurrected "David" on earth with Israel, ((FIVE TIMES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, David Guzik agrees by the way))) to just have us to blow all this off as "less important" than all the rest of Scripture.

In short, I believe the entire Bible is a huge, intricate, detailed, interwoven, God-breathed message that has NO shortfalls. This message was in the original Hebrew and Greek, of which we now have more or less a 99.something accurate translation of what was written. Sorry all, there is no God-breathed translation. I am also, in part, studying the Hebrew (just a little) and the Greek (more so). I believe God has allowed the variants in the Greek so that we would study the differences between the Alexandrian and Byzantine Greek texts, and actually discover, or rediscover, some wonderful things.

I am shocked to find out how ignorant many teachers and pastors are of English Bible history and the original languages. Most of the time I just keep my mouth shut around leaders simply because I want to be Christlike and it's not my intention to embarrass people. Most of the time people cut me off before I can explain myself, but in short, I say all this to say that I believe that the Millennial reign is blurred in some of the "less accurate" Greek texts. I will let you do your own research to come to your own conclusion as to which is "better." But we can certainly say that Paul did not write both "your whole self" and also "the body of the sins of the flesh" in Colossians 2:11; it has to be one or the other.

One of the branches of Greek texts has us to read the translation of Jude 14 as "Behold the Lord has come" and in some cases "the Lord came" (past tense)...and the other line of Greek texts stating "Behold the Lord comes" (present / future tense). I don't really want to say which is which at the moment, because I want to read and be able to cite all of the available Greek texts and have them to reference before getting specific.

I do now know that MANY of the early church fathers were premillennial, and in fact pretty dogmatic about it, and in many cases fairly uniform. I think that their timelines were off but that they were on the right track with the major conclusions that they made (ie. literal Christ on earth, etc).

Anyway, as Ravenhill said, I'm not sure if this will kill more rattlesnakes or stir more up, but I figure I'd put a "Millennial Framework" out there for others to attempt to "approve or disprove".

God bless and I hope everyone is doing well. I'll plan on posting some stuff on Israel at some point.

(((ADDED EDIT: There are also many church fathers that were not premillennial. I'm not saying they were all one way of the other; I'm trying to say that both ideas were present. MANY modern day scholars attempt to say that they were all one way or the other and that's simply just not the case. Again, I'm just asking that we stop saying that none of them were pre-trib. I will certainly say that they were NOT all pre-trib, my trib, brothers and sisters)))

That’s pretty close except for A through Z.

Thanks for the input

I, too, have studied the end times for about 25 years but I've come to the conclusion the more I study, the less I know!

I do enjoy listening to Dr Michael Heiser and Joel Richardson, those TWO will always out study the majority of us!

God bless,
Lisa

Not sure if you knew Dr. Heiser died recently. Very sad.

/I, too, have studied the end times for about 25 years but I've come to the conclusion the more I study, the less I know!/

The best advice I perhaps received regarding coming to an understanding of the time the time of the end was to find out what the day of the Lord is and when it occurs. All Old Testament eschatology pointed to the day of the Lord and is that which New Testament eschatology is built around. One could say all roads lead to the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord (the day of Christ) cannot occur before and until the man of sin is revealed and manifest (II Thess 2:1-4).

Thank you. Blessings.

Don't let mockery deride your quest chillnerd. It comes with the territory when you begin to study eschatology which has become the black sheep of Christian theology and doctrine. Why bother they say? You won't know any more when you get through than when you began. You could of fooled me. Eschatology is the only field of biblical truth that is treated in this manner.

Also, it causes people at times to get emotional when it is pointed out that the pre-trib view of the rapture was never seen in church history until the 1830s and is therefore a good clue as to its validity. That is my opinion.

Bless you in your inquiry. Carry on.

Agreed, sir. And apparently he will "katheetso" sit down or place himself into a position of settling in verse 2. I would think that this would imply he was calculated in his take over.

Verse 1 for gathering is apisynagagogey...almost "synagogue". Curious about the implications now. That word is used only in one other place which is the Hebrews passage that everyone uses to guilt people into coming to church.

I have heard from Chuck Missler that the Day of the Lord is a word picture of the total Kingdom installation, that would include various events. At least from my persuasion, I would say that it (the Day of the Lord) would begin with the visible return of Christ from heaven, and I think it would include the Millennial Reign and forward. But I agree that the Antichrist must first fulfill the Abomination of Desolation prophesy following in the footsteps of the pre-Christ fulfillment by Antiochos Epiphanies or Antiochus IV; written of him by Diodorus:

"sacrificed a great swine at the image of Moses, and at the altar of God that stood in the outward court, and sprinkled them with the blood of the sacrifice. He commanded likewise that the books, by which they were taught to hate all other nations, should be sprinkled with the broth made of the swine's flesh. And he put out the lamp (called by them immortal) which burns continually in the temple. Lastly he forced the high priest and the other Jews to eat swine's flesh" (Diodorus 34:1(4)).

Man, that's pretty intense, but the tribulation will be so much worse.

God bless

The Day of the Lord:

1) Christ returns.

2) The righteous dead are raised and glorified along with
living believers.

3) The AC and the armies assaulting the land and Jerusalem
are destroyed.

4) Christ reveals Himself to the eschatological remnant of
Israel typified by Joseph revealing himself to his
brothers. A believing nation is born in one day.

5) This present evil age ends and the first day the
Millennial age begins.

6) Israel "lies down in safety" never to be abused again by
hostile Gentile powers.

"Surely it is coming, and it shall be done," says the Lord GOD."This is the day I have spoken of." (Ezekiel 39:8)

I have heard from Chuck Missler that the Day of the Lord is a word picture of the total Kingdom installation, that would include various events. At least from my persuasion, I would say that it (the Day of the Lord) would begin with the visible return of Christ from heaven, and I think it would include the Millennial Reign and forward.

Do you believe the wrath of God will be the whole 7 years? If so, could you provide those scriptures also!

I'm willing to learn if it's from the Bible!

thank you,
Lisa

//eschatological remnant of
Israel//

What does this mean? Is this remnant made up of unbelievers or believers?

You seem to be saying they won’t believe until they see Christ personally, but I wanted to make sure that is what you are saying.

Have you considered, that Israel (the location on a map) as relating to the OC is but a shadow of the Israel we find in the NC,..?
Where in the ministry of Christ Himself, the OC prophecy finds fulfillment in His sacrifice as the Lamb of God, and being raised from the dead He sat down down at the right hand of God.
Having accomplished everything given Him to do by His Father, He received His inheritance which establishes Israel as His body with Holy Jerusalem as His Bride.

Just as being in Christ, is to say being part of His body, there is neither male nor female, Greek nor Jew, Scythian nor barbarian, but all are one body under His headship, this is Israel with Christ as it’s head….

"I came not but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel”
(the word "house” is defined as a dwelling place, body, tent, church etc..)

Likewise Paul gives a thorough description in Romans 11…
"Until the fullness (number) of the gentiles has come in”
He’s referring here to Israel as the body of Christ, not a place on a map where gentiles migrate and take up national citizenship.

Just as with the first Adam, God didn’t use his whole body, just a rib, to make fashion him a bride, so too is it with the last Adam.
Here we find Israel (His body) with Holy Jerusalem (His Bride).
Those whom share the concern of His heart, will make up the Bride and become the dwelling place of God on earth in the midst of His people.
"And I will be their God, and they shall be my people”
This is the tabernacle-

Israel, His body, is made up of a royal priesthood, with the high priests being His bride, Holy Jerusalem .

This was always Gods plan,… to dwell with His people on earth, there is no plan b as it were, only Gods will done on earth as it is in heaven.

The millennial reign is the full manifestation, that the whole earth since creation has groaned and travailed for - awaiting , of the sons and daughters of God as the body of Christ. Here is Christ as our Great High Priest as the Head of His kingdom of Priests- His Headship established over Israel (not a location on a map) and the 1000yr administration of His government.

Then all the Gog/Magog - Babylon/Whore/Beast etc… is viewed much more clearly when we’re not looking down at maps drawn by man, but up to the maps drawn by God…

The "locations” of this administration or our part in the inheritance of the commonwealth of Israel (Romans 11) is found in Ezekiel 47 … specifically starting @vs13 but the whole chapter is overflowing with context regarding this matter -

Just as the first Adam was given dominion over the earth, so too shall the last be given.
As it was, so shall it be,… for there truly is nothing new under the sun -

Docs wrote: "...the pre-trib view of the rapture was never seen in church history until the 1830s..."

Actually, that is not so, as pointed out in the article below, and elsewhere. However, I do not base my theology on extra-Biblical opinions, regardless of the antiquity of the writer, but only in comparing Scripture with Scripture.

https://truthandtidings.com/2020/07/the-rapture-a-pre-darby-rapture/

IMMINENCE

I’ve had some email exchanges with my pastor, and it seems that "the imminent return of Christ” is his main objection. Also for me this scripture seems ‘against’ our view. Although it could just have been a sentence directed to the hearers that they need not concern themselves about the restoration of the kingdom, they had work to do here and now.

"And he said unto them, it is not for you to know the times or the seasons,
which the Father hath put in his own power” (Acts 1:7).

So any thought would be appreciated….

Ithink our modern debate over the rapture question is making a very illegitimate use of the context and original intention of this passage.

So far from lending support to the doctrine of ‘imminence,’ Acts 1:6-7 is the Lord’s personal correction of that mistaken presumption.

Let’s notice some things:

The disciples that asked this question of Jesus on the eve of the Ascension were either not present when He gave the prophecy from the Mount of Olives, or they had forgotten His words. Only days before, Jesus had taught the disciples that "the end” would be preceded by an unequaled tribulation signaled by the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel (Mt 24:15-16, 21). But first, the gospel must be preached to all nations before the end can come (Mt 24:14).

At the time the disciples asked the question of Acts 1:6, the mystery of Christ’s twofold coming to Israel had not been revealed (Acts 3:18-21; Ro 16:25-26; 1Pet 1:11-12). They didn’t know that the risen Jesus was about to ascend to the right hand of God and there remain until His return (Acts 3:21). Even on those occasions when the disciples had heard the Lord speak of ‘going away,’ it was never imagined that this would be by way of death and resurrection and subsequent ascension.

To understand the dilemma, we must remember that the great puzzle for first century Israel was how the messianic redemption could be accomplished BEFORE and apart from Israel’s national deliverance. We know from the Jewish apocalyptic writings of the time that many looked for the redemption to follow the unequaled tribulation, or ‘Zion’s travail’ (compare Isa 66:7-8; Jer 30:6-7; Mic 5:3 with Dan 12:1), but no one knew that before this, Messiah would suffer death and be raised to return a second time. This was a mystery of the first order. It stumbled Israel. It would not come to full light until the Spirit would be poured out at Pentecost (1Pet 1:11-12).

Jesus knew that the puzzle would soon be solved when the power of the Spirit would come at Pentecost, ‘not many days from now’ (Acts 1:5). Then all would be made clear (Acts 3:18-21). But for these particular disciples at this particular time, the time for the universal witness to the gospel had come. That was the task at hand. Later, when Jerusalem’s destruction would be truly imminent, then it would be time to know that His coming is near, even at the door (Mt 24:33).

Later on, when Paul will correct a similar presumption of imminence, great stress will be laid on how the day of the Lord will be preceded and recognized by definite, known signs (Mt 24:14-15; 2Thes 2:3-4). It would therefore be a great error to interpret Jesus’ correction in a way that off sets or contradicts the great importance that He had earlier placed on reading and understanding the prophecy of Daniel ("Let the reader understand;” Mt 24:15). Jesus knew that in its time, this critical knowledge will be life or death for many (Mt 24:16, 21; Rev 12:6, 14; 13:5, 15-17).

So should this passage (Acts 1:7) be used to teach that the Lord is denying the knowableness of the time for anyone at anytime? Even pretribulationists say no. They admit that saints living at that time will surely know that the ‘end’ (i.e., the resurrection and deliverance of Israel) comes approximately 3 ½ years after the abomination (Dan 9:27; 12:11; Rev 11:2). Tribulation believers (those whom they say come to faith after the church has been removed) will surely be able to know the time when the signs appear that mark the beginning of the tribulation.

In their view, it is only believers living before a presumably imminent rapture that have no business to occupy themselves with the question of the times and seasons, since it is assumed they will be taken up before those times begin. This is how pretribulationists apply the Lord’s answer in Acts 1:7 to the question of whether anyone can know the time of the rapture and the start of the day of the Lord (i.e., "the times and the seasons;” 1Thes 5:1-2).

But the imminence of the rapture is not the question here, but the restoration of the kingdom to Israel. It is not the time of the rapture but the time of the kingdom that is not given to them to know at this time, simply because the time (and true imminence) of the kingdom cannot be known with certainty until the signs of its approach will be clearly in view.

Since the gospel must be first preached to all nations, it would have been impossible for the disciples to look for a presumed any moment rapture as a realistic potential in the earliest years before the persecution at Jerusalem (Acts 8:1), before the conversion of Paul, and before the gentile mission. Furthermore, since the final seven years begins when the Antichrist makes a false covenant of peace (Dan 8:25; 9:27; 11:23) with a recently regathered nation (Jer 30:3; Eze 38:8; Zeph 2:1-2; Dan 12:1), how can pretribulationists hold that the rapture was a truly ‘imminent’ possibility during the many centuries of Jewish exile from the Land?

Even on pretribulational assumptions, from 70 A.D. until 1948, the conditions necessary for the last seven years to begin have not been in place! Therefore, the doctrine of imminence is unsustainable for anyone committed to the necessary fulfillment of all prophecy.

As I have shown in an earlier writing ("The Rapture Question Decisively Answered by the Timing of the Day of the Lord”), the question of imminence is best decided by a study of the day of the Lord. A popular assumption that will not stand the test of scripture is that in order for the day of the Lord to come as a thief in the night, it must be secret and un-signaled. However, Paul says the day will NOT overtake believers as a thief, not because the day comes without signs, but because believers will be watching and will recognize the signs that MUST precede ‘that day’ (1Thes 5:4-6; 2Thes 2:3-4; Mt 24:15; Dan 11:21-45).

"That day shall not come except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed …” (2Thes 2:3). "And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come” (Acts 2:19-20). "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord” (Mal 4:5).

In order for an event to be imminent in the sense that pretribulationists use the term, it cannot be signaled by any other known event. This is why pretribulationists were obliged to change their position on the day of the Lord, first in the 1940’s and again in the 70’s (see the above mentioned article).

Until recently, traditional pretribulationism thought the rapture started the day of the Lord. Since the day of the Lord comes unexpectedly as a thief, it was thought that it could NOT be preceded by any known event that might alert of its approach. This view became untenable when post-tribulationists of recent years pressed the point that the day of the Lord cannot be imminent until after the Antichrist has first been revealed (2Thes 2:2-3).

In order to obviate the problem, pretribulationists proposed that a gap of some indefinite duration should be discerned between the rapture and the beginning of the day of the Lord in order to provide time for the Antichrist to be revealed. This maneuver, however, is to controvert the whole idea that in order for the day of the Lord to come as a thief, it must be imminent, un-signaled, and without warning. This still popular theory collapses when definite and recognizable signs foretold in prophecy are shown to ‘necessarily’ precede ‘that day.’

Not only does scripture make clear that the Antichrist must be revealed before the Day of the Lord can start (2Thes 2:2-3), but throughout the prophets we see a number of Old Testament passages that describe the day of the Lord to be "near” or "at hand” only at the very end of the tribulation with the final judgment on the nations that have besieged Jerusalem (Isa 13:6-11; 34:8; 63:4; Eze 30:3; 39:8; Joel 1:15; 2:1; 3:14-16; Obad 15; Zeph 1:7, 14; 2:1-2; Zech 14:1).

This order of events is especially clear in Peter’s mention of the darkening of the sun and the reddening of the moon "BEFORE that great and notable Day of the Lord” (Acts 2:20), whereas Jesus, quoting the same OT prophecy (Joel 2:31), puts this climactic sign "‘immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days” (Mt 24:29-30). Therefore, if the darkness that comes BEFORE the day of the Lord is also said to come "immediately AFTER the tribulation,” it must follow that the day of the Lord is NOT the entire seven years, as in pretribulationism, but comes at the end of the great tribulation.

If the day of the Lord is NOT the seven years (the first half of which is false peace and certainly NOT great tribulation), but rather the climax of the tribulation, it becomes most untenable to argue that the day of the Lord comes without warning, or that it starts with a secret rapture, or, in more recent pre-trib theory, begins shortly after the Antichrist is revealed. This is not the language of scripture; it is pure inference based on presupposition.

As we have seen, it is false to assume that the day of the Lord cannot come as a thief if it is placed at the end of the tribulation. Even some pre-tribulational scholars admit that the coming Christ that is compared to a thief in Mt 24:43 is His visible, post-tribulational return. This is clear from the order and language of the context (Mt 24:27-43). This is further proof that preceding signs do not keep the Lord’s return from overtaking the unbelieving world as a thief.

Furthermore, Paul speaks of yet another sign of the day of the Lord that will greatly distinguish between those who will be overtaken as a thief and those who will not be surprised. It is the declaration of "peace and safety” (1Thes 5:3). I believe Paul has in mind the ill-fated peace covenant that the Jews will enter into with the Antichrist (see Isa 28:15, 18, Eze 38:8, 11, 14; 39:26; Dan 8:25; 9:27; 11:23).

To further demonstrate that the thief like day of the Lord comes at the very end of the tribulation, notice the relation of Christ’s coming as a thief in Rev 16:15 with Peter’s reference to the day of the Lord in 2Pet 3:10, 12. It is significant to observe that, according to Rev 16:15, the thief like coming of Christ is not presented as truly ‘imminent’ until after the sixth bowel.

Even so late as after the sixth bowel (Rev 16:12), the thief like return of Jesus is presented as yet future (Rev 16:15). An examination of the context of Rev 16:12-17 will show that the warning of Jesus’ thief like coming is significantly placed between the sixth and seventh bowels, and the context makes clear that the seventh bowl is "Armageddon, the battle of the great day of God Almighty” (Rev 16:14-17). This points to the fact that Jesus’ coming to destroy the Antichrist (2Thes 2:8) is the same coming that is elsewhere compared to the coming of a thief.

Notably, the next event after this insertion of warning concerning Christ’s ‘now truly imminent’ return (as a thief) is the announcement of the seventh bowel, which is also "the great day of God Almighty.” This, and not a supposed earlier rapture, is the coming that in Rev 16:15, 2Pet 2:10, 12, and Mt 24:43 is represented to overtake the ‘earth dwellers’ as a thief. In contrast, Paul makes it clear that this will NOT be the experience of the true believer. "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.” (1Thes 5:4).

A careful comparison of the language of Rev 16:17 with Eze 39:8 will prove beyond question that the seventh bowl, also called "the great Day of God Almighty,” is indeed the Day of the Lord foretold by all the prophets of Israel. A further comparison of 2Pet 3:10, 12 with Rev 16:14 puts beyond question that the thief like day of the Lord and the post-tribulational "Day of God” are synonymous. Jesus comes as a thief at the great day of God Almighty to end the battle of Armageddon. This is the great and notable day of the Lord, which comes AFTER the darkness, which comes "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days” (Mt 24:29; Acts 2:20). What could be plainer?

Hence, the term, day of the Lord, is a biblical synonym for the post-tribulational return of Christ. It is the day of Antichrist’s destruction (2Thes 2:3, 8), the gathering of Christ’s elect (Mt 24:31 with 2Thes 2:1-2), and the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (Mt 23:39; Acts 3:21; Ro 11:25-26; Rev 1:7). It does not include the tribulation; it ends the tribulation. The day of the Lord is not an imminent, un-signaled event and cannot therefore be introduced by an alleged any moment, pre-tribulational rapture. Christ returns at the day of the Lord, and this is the only return of Christ promised in scripture.

It may be asked, how can the day of the Lord come as a thief in the night when it is signaled by such clear and manifest events? That is a good question, but it leaves the question, clear and manifest to whom? It may seem a marvel, but at the time when the world will have occasion to witness perhaps the most prolific and manifest fulfillment of prophecy in history, still, the mediating angel says to Daniel, "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand” (Dan 12:10).

We simply cannot suppose the Lord’s answer in Acts 1:7 is meant to teach that there is no need for knowledge of the times and events which He and Paul, and later John, so clearly sets out for the church’s protection (Mt 24:15-16, 21; 2Thes 2:4; Rev 12:6, 14; 13:5, 15-17; 14:9), and which so greatly glorifies God in the knowledge of His prophetic plan and revelation of His manifold wisdom.

The mystery revealed at Pentecost made clear that the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (i.e., the day of the Lord) must await the return of Jesus from heaven (Acts 3:21), but first "this gospel of the kingdom must be preached to all nations for witness, and then (only then) shall the end come” (Mt 24:14). The times and seasons of when that will be will only be knowable with certainty when the signs are fully in place. This concerns in particular the closing stages of Daniel’s vision, which the scripture says would not be fully unsealed and understood until the time of the end (Dan 12:4, 6-7, 9). This seems the more likely context and background of the Lord’s intention in His answer to the question of Acts 1:6.

We’ve come a long way to use a text intended to correct the mistaken presumption of imminence to defend the modern doctrine of an imminent pre-tribulational rapture. No, the day of the Lord is not imminent. It does not begin the tribulation; it ends it. It will not overtake believers as a thief, precisely because it will be preceded by the clear and knowable signs of its approach.

Finally, it would have required the greatest stretch of the imagination to teach an imminent, any moment rapture of the church at any time during the many centuries when there was no nation of Israel to even set the stage for the last seven years. The Lord is always "at hand” (Phil 4:5) in the sense that "the Judge is standing at the door” (Ja 5:9), signifying every person’s proximity to the ever present potential of sudden judgment (Lk 12:20, 45-46), but the doctrine of imminence from the standpoint of actual chronology is a disarming false doctrine that threatens to cost the church dearly.

In His precious service, Reggie

A few church fathers are supposed to have said things that prove the pre-trib doctrine and even then it seems many times their statements do not really mean what they are said to mean. Sometimes context and surrounding statements are ignored. But even if they did say them, at the same time, there always has been a vastly larger number of early church fathers who were clearly post-tribulational in regard to the timing of Christ's coming. The standard way in which the overwhelming majority of their statements is handled is just to ignore them. Below is a short list, of which there are many more early fathers who were obviously post-tribulational.

Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (Didache - Chapter 16)

Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;" (First Apology of Justin, Chapter 110)

Irenaeus (AD 140-202) "he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." (Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1)

Tertullian (AD 150-220) "that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, Revelation xviii and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 25)

Hippolytus (AD 160-240) "That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains," (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

Cyprian (AD 200-258) "For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle ... "The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service…" Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times," (Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2)

Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. (Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722)

Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church." (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3)

Said again: the vast majority of early church fathers taught no doctrine that advocates the church being snatched away before the final time of great tribulation.

Revelation, in my view, is not a linear narrative. You mentioned the seven bowls (vials in KJV). When compared to the seven trumpets I believe they are the same events, but with different emphases. Compare and make your own determination. As with much in the mystery of Godliness, we will only have 20/20 hindsight. But it is a great blessing to search out God's Word.

Brother docs,

I appreciate that, sir. I have myself convinced, anyway, that the Millennium may be one of the key doctrines that was commonly taught in the early Church, that was some how "snuffed out" and then confused and twisted historically (I've heard that kind of twisting done somewhere before...). When I say early Church, I mean those who were part of the body of Christ, prior to the official founding of the Roman Catholic Church. So around 34ish AD until the founding of the "Catholic Church" (that is exactly how it is written in the 380 or 381 Roman Edict of Thessalonica, not trying to put crosshairs on the Roman Church but it is what it is). I have been dissuaded by several people in several different ways from digging into this, over several years, but now that I am in a master's program, I have a textbook that, in passing, that is citing several early church fathers (Lactantius, Victorinus, Ephrem, etc) whom all emphatically believed in the literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth; almost seemingly to a fault. (If you want the quotes please ask, typing them out will help me to memorize what they said).

I took the place of a pHD friend of mine and taught our "seasoned" church members for a month on Israel. Well, this was intimidating to say the least, especially since he sat in on a couple of classes. Well to my surprise, he did not correct me on anything. The last class was on the Millennial Reign, because if you follow Israel's future timeline, one is lead to figure out who is where at what time (we might say eschatological logistics, ha ha), and how we are going to get to a place where the wolf lies down with the Lamb, and when the Lord will stand on the Mount of Olives while IT SPLITS IN HALF!!! (I'm pretty sure that passage has not been fulfilled). Quickly, if you take those verses as poetry or non-essential, fine, you can check out with me here. But I take all Scripture as God breathed and profitable, because God tells us to consider them that way in Timothy: That is: the first consonantal Hebrew word of Genesis 1:1, to the last word of Koine Greek in Rev 22:21. There is not a single biblical word that the Holy Spirit did not intend for our good.

So, yes, friend, I have already weathered a lot of that kind of attempted embarrassment my way, dissuasion, etc, etc, At this point I'm like: "ahhh whatever". When my studies keep taking me down a road that the Scriptures have led me to, I'm not going to get bogged down because people want to say that I'm: 1) too literal 2) wasting my time 3) hyper-spiritual 4) nerdy 5) distracted, etc, etc. I keep reminding myself in many regards that all things are, in fact, spiritual warfare, so therefore, I'm wrestling with the demonic, not with a person. So it's all good.

There is so much untapped good information and promoted misinformation that I have come to a place that I just might have to resolve myself to teach about the Millennium at a college level, knowing that a lot of colleges might not want to touch me. Whatever He wants, of course.

Thanks for the encouraging words and God bless you as you walk with Christ as well, my dear brother.

/Lord will stand on the Mount of Olives while IT SPLITS IN HALF!!! (I'm pretty sure that passage has not been fulfilled)./

Check out Matthew Henry’s commentary on that verse to see how it indeed HAS been fulfilled.

/Have you considered, that Israel (the location on a map) as relating to the OC is but a shadow of the Israel we find in the NC,..?
Where in the ministry of Christ Himself, the OC prophecy finds fulfillment in His sacrifice as the Lamb of God, and being raised from the dead He sat down down at the right hand of God.
Having accomplished everything given Him to do by His Father, He received His inheritance which establishes Israel as His body with Holy Jerusalem as His Bride./

I think the problem with this type of reasoning is that Israel was never a type or shadow. It seems to be an error of the most serious and fundamental nature to incorporate the Abrahamic land promise into the temporal Mosaic covenant. The promise of the land incorporating the physical borders of a material land named Israel that could be found on the map was according to the unconditional, everlasting terms of the Abrahamic covenant (Gen 15:1-21) that were revealed 430 years before the law and Mosaic covenant and cannot be annulled. The land was not meant to be a type or shadow in need of future reinterpretation as to its meaning.

There is the mistaken belief that the land, as mere shadow or type, is rooted in the old temporal Mosaic covenant. We have been told that the land is a "return to the shadowy forms of the old covenant." Contrary wise, the Bible gives a strong monolithic witness that the land is rooted in the Abrahamic covenant (Gen 12:1,5-7; 13:14-15,17; 15:7-21) and is intrinsic to the covenant itself. As such, it is not limited by the temporary character of the Mosaic administration or in need of reinterpretation in regard to its true meaning.

Advocating that the physical land of Israel is no more in God's sight because of greater New Testament spiritual realities seems valid until one realizes that the original land promises making Israel a physical land were part of the Abrahamic covenant which is only fulfilled in the new covenant of grace. Israel was never a shadow or type under the old covenant. Promises to Israel were originally part of the new covenant of grace.

That Gentiles have been incorporated into the covenant promises given to the commonwealth of Israel is undeniable and a source of wonderment and rejoicing. Yet the original promises made under the original Abrahamic covenant of grace will not be change or replace God's word to a physical people living in a physical land. When Christ touches down on earth again at His second coming, I believe there is a specific earthly location that will occur in and that location will be able to be found on a map. That doesn't limit at all the scope of earth and the cosmos to eventually be affected by Christ's salvation.

Sister Lysa,

As far as the visible return of Christ, that just seems to make sense, that He would refer to it as "The Day of the Lord"; or rather, now He (and "we" because we want His will to be done) is getting what He wants: namely His physical Kingdom set up on earth. I would say that the rapture would not yet be the Day of the Lord because Israel still has to face tribulation. So once the tribulation finishes (7 years total), the armies surround Jerusalem, and Christ returns to earth "with ten thousands of his myriads" or "saints" or "holy ones" (Jude 14 / some say angels, I think it's talking about us returning with Him to execute judgement). So it seems to make sense that His returning to earth in a visible sense, with angels, and I believe us, that His Kingdom being physically set up on earth is called "His Day". In other words, this is His time.

However, I could see how someone might say that it would be a little earlier while the Revelation bowl judgments and such are being poured out before He comes back. I don't think I have a problem with that. Like someone, who is an enemy of God, at the end of the tribulation, who is on the earth during the judgments being poured out on the earth, saying "The Day of the Lord has come" so to speak. I would say that's like the "prelude" of The Day of the Lord. I take "Day" of the Lord the same way I take "week" in Daniel: it stands for a period of time. If someone else doesn't, okay, but as long as you're following the Scripture.

I think that the tribulation, or the "time of Jacob's trouble" will take seven years. In the Daniel 9 passage, look below at Daniel 9:27 ONLY for the time that covers the tribulation. I have included all major Scriptural sections that discuss the tribulation that I could think of, in the order that they are found in your Bible:

Jeremiah 30

1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the Lord.”

4 These are the words the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah: 5 "This is what the Lord says:

"‘Cries of fear are heard””
terror, not peace.
6 Ask and see:
Can a man bear children?
Then why do I see every strong man
with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor,
every face turned deathly pale?
7 How awful that day will be!
No other will be like it.
It will be a time of trouble for Jacob,
but he will be saved out of it.
8 "‘In that day,’ declares the Lord Almighty,
‘I will break the yoke off their necks
and will tear off their bonds;
no longer will foreigners enslave them.
9 Instead, they will serve the Lord their God
and David their king,
whom I will raise up for them.
10 "‘So do not be afraid, Jacob my servant;
do not be dismayed, Israel,’
declares the Lord.
‘I will surely save you out of a distant place,
your descendants from the land of their exile.
Jacob will again have peace and security,
and no one will make him afraid.
11 I am with you and will save you,’
declares the Lord.
‘Though I completely destroy all the nations
among which I scatter you,
I will not completely destroy you.
I will discipline you but only in due measure;
I will not let you go entirely unpunished.’

***Then Daniel 9

24 "Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

25 "Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

***The Olivet Discourse is discussing the seven years:

Matthew 24 V9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel””let the reader understand”” 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now””and never to be equaled again.

22 "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 "So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 "Immediately after the distress of those days

"‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

***And then the Olivet Discourse in Mark

13 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”

2 "Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

5 Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

9 "You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

14 "When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong””let the reader understand””then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now””and never to be equaled again.

20 "If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

24 "But in those days, following that distress,

"‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
26 "At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

***And then the Olivet Discourse in Luke 21

5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 "As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”

7 "Teacher,” they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

8 He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”

10 Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12 "But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.

20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

29 He told them this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32 "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34 "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

***I would assume the sealing of the 144,000 Jews happens during this time:

Revelation 7

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

***And then Revelation 12:6 looks like it covers the first half of the seven year tribulation, where Israel seeks refuge but then is hunted down by the Antichrist and those who follow him.

The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

***There is one more section that discusses how 2 out of every 3 Jews will be killed during the last half of the tribulation, I just wasn't able to find it.

Hope this helps!

EDIT: I found the passage about 2/3 of the Jews being killed during the tribulation:

Zechariah 13

1 "On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

2 "On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the Lord Almighty. "I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, ‘You must die, because you have told lies in the Lord’s name.’ Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.

4 "On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth.[a]’ 6 If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’

The Shepherd Struck, the Sheep Scattered

7 "Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is close to me!”
declares the Lord Almighty.
"Strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered,
and I will turn my hand against the little ones.
8 In the whole land,” declares the Lord,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.
9 This third I will put into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are my people,’
and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’”

Brother docs,

It does seem from these quotes that they were not pre-trib: point made. My point is that they were all Millennial Reign guys.

However, the Didache quote: I'm not sure about the context, but what Didache could be describing is tribulation saints enduring, who are Jews. We are, at that time (in my view) above with Christ. But shall after this, return with Christ. I would just ask this question: During Revelation 1-6, where are we? Well it appears that we are with Christ in heaven (in other words, having been raptured). And then Revelation 7 is us looking down at Israel, who is on earth, and during the 144,000 (which specifically says that it's a count of Jews, by the way) are counted, which are in the tribulation. But then:

Revelation 7

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes””who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, "Sir, you know.”

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”

***If you look before the Jewish tribulation saints are identified by number, the elders are there, already with God, who have been there since Revelation 4. This is representative of us, already raptured and with God in heaven. Then the tribulation saints, both Jewish and Gentile, are gathered together with us in heaven. Then, in my view, we all descend with Christ for the Millennial Reign. I believe we and the angels are all part of the "armies of heaven" in Rev 19:14. After this, I think that the Millennial Reign will have some believers who will have survived the tribulation and repopulate the earth during the Millennium. I think we will have access to earth but we and the tribulation saints will have already been glorified. Babies will be born on earth to those earthly survivors, some of whom will not believe. They will become the plagued nations that are talked about in the Old Testament. I also believe a resurrected David will rule under the authority of Christ in Jerusalem (I know it seems crazy but this is mentioned five times in the Old Testament).

As far as all the other quotes, I am honestly not that wound up about pre-tribulation stuff. If we don't get raptured before the tribulation, so be it; I just think we will. However, I am becoming way, way convinced of the Millennial Reign. I think there are enough clear passages that I would probably go back and forth or "contend" for the Millennial Reign because of the biblical evidence. One of my professors thinks the church will enter the tribulation (or he might be a mid-trib guy), and I don't have a real beef with this. I tend to have a problem with a Christian that says "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years" is a figure of speech or they say it's not literal. (Rev 20:4b).

So to reiterate, I am pre-trib, but if someone is not: fine. But if someone says the Millennial Reign will not happen, I really do want them to explain what Revelation 20 is all about. Since after all, whatever Revelation 20 is, it is the final step before we move into the new heavens and the new earth.

God bless and thanks for the quotes!

TMK,

So he and I just disagree. I take it as literal. I have studied Henry's commentary at length, and for me he just gets foggy sometimes. I used to hand write out much of his comments because he was so thorough. But I found myself to often be more confused when I was finished. I much prefer Chuck Missler and David Guzik. Their commentaries are much clearer.

ChrisA,

I have never really gotten a warm and fuzzy with the bowls and trumpets, even after some intentional Revelation study. I would like to listen to a teaching that is only on bowls and trumpets to have something to work from.

I do think, however, that most of Revelation is a linear narrative, with sections that briefly look back (like looking back at the birth of Christ in Rev 12:5). I have found that studying it with the thought that it is a linear narrative has been eye opening for me.

//So he and I just disagree.//

That’s perfectly fine and dandy. I guess my point is that Matthew Henry knew his Bible, likely far better than you or I ever will, and he had a very different take.

I understand we have our favorites, but to dismiss out of hand other views that are also well supported by scripture is unwise.

I guess that is why my eschatology is decidedly not carved in stone. I would never in a million years attempt to lay it out in A to Z fashion as you have done.

It seems that you’ve misunderstood, gone beyond and yet stopped short of what is the intention of illustrating the actual body of Christ and His Bride-

In the same way the whore of Babylon is not a singular, female individual, rather is a people (ideologically aligned under a headship) per Revelation 17-
So too is Heavenly Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ, not an individual woman that will serve as the Bride of Christ…
Which is to say that the man Jesus will not be married to a singular, individual woman, rather He will be "wed” or permanently joined to His wise virgins in the priestly administration of His Kingdom.

Regarding Israel (on a map) as the center of Gods heavenly administration here on the earth,… that ended (formally) with the destruction of the temple 70ad and now we are His Holy habitation here on the earth, ie His body - Where Jesus is King (or head) of Israel (His body) which is not replaced or superseded by the church, rather they are joined as one with us (gentiles) being assimilated (grafted) into the commonwealth of Israel (His body).
Romans 11:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

We (gentiles) are made spiritual Jews, not by circumcision of the flesh but by the circumcision of the heart,… this is the "grafting” in, being made partakers of the root.

The good news of the gospel is that His Kingdom has come 🙏🏻
Christ is King now, today of all those whom being born again from above, submit to Him as their head being themselves knitted together by His word through the ministry of His Holy Spirit-

Remember how they looked for a better city,… a heavenly city??
One come down from heaven (not a place on a map)-

We find this in Hebrews 11 and in 12 we find a new contrast, not Israel contrasted with Babylon but Sinai with Zion :))

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

The writer here is making it abundantly clear he is not referring to a place on a map… rather a people under the Headship of Christ ✝️

Hope that helps to clarify the point that we (wild olive branch) "come in” to Israel (the body of Christ) by grace, through faith and not with head knowledge which serves to puff up, rather as little children believing 😇

TMK

On Henry, that's cool man. I have heard Paul Washer say that if we come up with anything new that it's probably heresy. I have seen Paul Washer in person, and he has a lot of good qualities, but I also recognize in his preaching a lot of fear, obligation, and guilt (FOG: easy to remember). While fear is the beginning of wisdom, when you step into perfect love, fear is then cast out. When I look into the old guys, I see a lot of fear, obligation, and guilt. By old guys I mean: Whitfield, Calvin, Luther, Henry, sorry guys...yes, Ravenhill...and I think many of you know what I mean. There is a grace that is in the preaching of Jesus, Peter, and Paul that has not been inserted into our theology. While we do have some good theology today, the lack of an awareness of grace alongside an awareness of truth is very apparent. It is rare to find a Christian leader that has an abundance of both. Sorry, but I don't feel the life giving "breath" of Paul's letters when I read Henry.

This being said, I have been working that end times timeline for years, and I don't see it as Gospel. But I passed by a lady the other day who I had never met. I caught her in the middle of making her own timeline. We verbally traded back and forth and ended up coming to the same conclusions, A through Z, just from reading our Bible. Now I don't even know what "branch" of theology my A through Z fits into, and our church doesn't even teach this A through Z timeline. I doubt you could find 20 people in our 1000 member church that could tell you what the Abomination of Desolation is and will be, accurately. But what I'm saying is that I "randomly" ran into about a 75 year old lady who seems to have been teaching for a long time, and we verbally went through and matched up 100%, including a physical Jesus on earth and a physical, resurrected David on earth, both of us individually walking with the Lord and studying.

Actually I'm not dismissing other views. I'm inviting you to post something different. It's all good. We're all learning. docs showed me that the early church Fathers were not all pre-trib: point made, and I moved on. So be it. I'm not saying you have to buy into my view, my dear brother, I'm just asking that you not discourage me or others for proposing one.

In Christ, Hal

Brother JFW,

I understand that you think I misunderstand, go beyond, and stop short, concerning the Scriptures. In short, I understand that we are all one in Christ: no Jew or Greek, no slave or free, no male or female, etc, etc. I don't see how that effects the future or non-future of an end times geographical Israel.

How do you interpret the following passages from Ezekiel 37:

9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet””a vast army.

11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

One Nation Under One King

15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 "Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

18 "When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph””which is in Ephraim’s hand””and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

24 "‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

Thanks in advance

docs Reggie,

I appreciate your Immencence post and I'll have to take it in in small doses, but I appreciate you taking the time. I'll get back to you, brother

Yes!!! Exactly this 🙏🏻

Reread the passage you shared, consider it in light of Romans 11…

Holy Spirit is prophesying Jesus (David- root of Jessie) as King or Head of His body, Israel / Judah in the OC (as a stick) whereas in the NC gentiles (wild branch) are being joined in the same fashion as it were to the root-

Again this was/is God’s plan all along,… no plan (b) at all but a restoration/redemption/reconciliation of His plan (a) through Christ 😇

Surely you’re not suggesting David himself will rule over Israel forever??
That is for Christ alone -

Ezekiel is a prophet not a record of history in a literal sense-
In the same way he (Ezekiel) is prophesying the restoration of Israel/Judah , Paul prophesies the now restored Israel/Judah will likewise be joined to the gentiles making one olive tree (peace) within-as the body of Christ.

Hope that helps 🙏🏻
I’ll say this, once you see it… you can’t unsee it and it’s beauty is divine and expresses the manifold wisdom of God ✝️

What the prophets said should be read in this light, as given by Peter:

1 Pet. 1:10-12 ”“
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven””things into which angels long to look.

2 Pet. 3:10-13 ”“
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Till Christ returns…………

2 Pet. 3:18 ”“
……………grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

ADD:
Good posts by Fletcher.

Brother JFW,

So I reread Romans 11, and I'm still not clear on what you're implying.

I think I see in part where you're coming from. So you would say that for Ezekiel 37:

David = Jesus

But what about Israel in Ezekiel 37? Is that Israel or symbolic for something else?

Also is the land of Israel the geographical Israel or does that stand for something else?

I take it that you mean that this section is supposed to have some symbolism. Could you just tell me what your interpretation is?

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Also, if David means Jesus, what is your interpretation of this passage from Hosea 3:

5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the Lord and to his blessings in the last days.

I would say that it sounds, like a posted previously, that a resurrected David will be ruling as a prince, in a sense, while a resurrected Jesus will be ruling over David, but they will both be present. After all, you believe that David will be there correct?

I would appreciate it if you just posted what I am supposed to "see", because what I see is exactly what's in the text: "the Lord their God and David their king."

And again in Jeremiah 30:9: "they will serve the Lord their God
and David their king"

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Also, Isaiah 9 says that Jesus will rule from David's throne. How will Jesus rule from David's throne unless David has sat on it first?

Lord willing, I will do as you request 🙏🏻

Yet He has twice stopped me from posting (after typing it out) so I ask for your patience as I seek His perfect will, regarding the revelation so that, in my zeal to share it, I don’t lack the discipline to speak faithfully pleasing unto Him as His oracle (1 Peter 4:11).

He alone knows your heart and He alone knows what scripture will unlock/reveal this…
My hope is to obtain from Him this very precious truth, that we may indeed be free, not from sin for He has already accomplished that yet we are in darkness (ignorance) as touching the fullness of His Kingdom that has come-

Ultimately no one can do for us what we must do for ourselves, yet we can love one another as we love ourselves… bearing the burden of our brothers and sisters together as we are one body, with one head which is Christ 🙏🏻

He has allowed me to say this much (as I am reminded that I will give an account for every idle word)…. it always was and forever will be about His Kingdom here on earth where He dwells among His people as one unified whole 🙏🏻✝️😇

In the same way (first) Adam was formed from the dust of the good earth
The body of Christ (last Adam) is formed from the Holy ground of Israel which is to say from it’s people in whom God dwells (bloodline,genealogy) with this being literal in OC and spiritual in NC -
The prophets foretold both the literal formation of Israel (on a map) and the spiritual Israel (body and bride [Jerusalem] of Christ.

Yet even the greatest prophet before Christ, John the Baptist, (spirit of Elias) would yet be the least in the Kingdom.

The Kingdom of Heaven is the body of Christ… when one is born again into the kingdom they are likewise "in Christ”.

This is why the former temple (dwelling place of God on earth) had to be destroyed (can’t put new wine in old wine skin) so that the new Israel (body of Christ, temple here on earth, dwelling place of God) could overtake/replace the former just as Jacob did to Esau, receiving the blessing of the Father… yet Esau sought repentance there was no place found-

Which is why the gospel of the Kingdom must be preached first to the Jew then to the gentile. Now we are yet awaiting the number of the gentiles to come in.

When Paul in Rom 11 states "and all Israel shall be saved” he is referring to the body of Christ not that everyone born at a location on a map would be (potentially against their will) saved …

When Paul likewise refers to being foreknew (salvation) and predestined (sanctification) those are the ones of us who have been saved/born again from above and have the witness of the spirit, (to whom we yield ourselves continuously), with those whom obey the spirit unto life are sanctified, not walking after the flesh being mindful of such things, rather look to better things, namely the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Whereby we are conformed into the image of our great high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
Here is where we find Gods plan, to build for Himself a Kingdom of Priests where Christ serves as the Great High Priest of God Himself. This is the body of Christ with Christ as its head, - Israel with Jesus as its Ruler (throne of David) or head) and (Holy) Jerusalem as its bride.

These are "not of this world” meaning they’re not of the systems, organizations and governments made by man but are in fact constituted by a people, being themselves born from above and in submission to the Word of God, through the ministry of the Holy Spirit…

If we neglect our salvation we will not escape the corruption of the world-Judgement (Heb 2:3)
And we can "fall from our secure position” (being foreknown) ( 2 Per 3:17)

This is through ignorance (Hosea) or neglect (Hebrews) and in spite of Gods mercy and grace, themselves being carried away by their own interests in this world, which is itself an enemy of the Kingdom or Body of Christ, they never grow to maturity with Christ being fully formed in them and they being fully formed in Christ through obedience to the Spirit, rather they live by the lusts of their eyes, the lusts of their flesh, and the pride of their life. As such they don’t go on to perfection - fully ripened (Heb 6) rather are as thorns …

All of this, yea even the whole of the Scriptures are this matter and this matter alone, God getting what He wants… His will being done on earth as it is in Heaven where the first Adam and his wife failed, Christ Jesus (last Adam) has succeeded! The Spirit and the Bride say "Come” .
Now the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, and we must come through the front gate (fellowship of the spirit) else we be found and thrust out. This kingdom is the body of Christ formed from the holy ground (Israel) and His bride (Holy Jerusalem) formed from His Holy body… us , those who through faith have been made partakers of His divine nature and being transformed by it, are grafted in to the inheritance of the commonwealth of Israel. This body (Israel) is made up of all tribes and tongues, peoples and nations where Christ is their Head through the ministry of the spirit… those who obey (receiving correction and chastening) are sons and daughters of God, those who don’t are bastards -

When Christ appears to us, His brightness destroys the man of sin, son of perdition and at the same time we (who are His body) are acclimated by His voice just as your body is acclimated to your voice and doesn’t respond to another persons "head/voice” without you yielding your personal autonomy to another.

Regarding the Body and the Bride, one distinction found in scripture is how Jesus gave warnings about being ready, staying watchful, actively preparing, anticipating His return, when viewed as faithful members of His body, there are those who are "wise virgins” these are those when the scripture says "the bride has prepared herself and made herself ready” (our work, offering spiritual sacrifices)… to be later adorned as a Bride by the Holiness of God (Glory) resting as it were upon her as an anointing. Because she prepared herself before hand, which is to say was more tender, sensitive to the spirits ministry and obeyed more completely.
[Remember Gods will has permissible, good/pleasing, and perfect levels and these are those that lay it all down for love of their Head ( Christ).]

To be clear, there will not be a singular woman a "Miss universe” as it were that will get the singular privilege, rather there are exactly 144,000 or 12,000 from each tribe , including gentiles -
This is where we find further correlation between Rom 11 and Ezekiel 48 which being the inheritance of the commonwealth of Israel, corresponds to the Kingdom of Heaven with both being measured by the same reed , Ezekiel 48, Rev 11, Rev 21 -
Again, this can not be on a map because His Kingdom, His Body, this Israel is not of this world 🙏🏻

While I understand you’d prefer me to "state it plainly” yet the Lord instructs me to frame it by His word and trust His spirit to lead, those who will follow, into all truth ✝️
Because at the end of the day, we all have to get it from Him personally and the only way I know is to ask Him for it and seek it first in all things😇

"It is the Glory of God to conceal a thing, and the glory of kings to search a matter out”
His kingdom is a body of kings and priests.

May we all cleanse our hands and purify our hearts, that we might earnestly seek His Kingdom, by hearing Him clearly and obeying Him completely, praying continuously giving thanks in all things,
Amen 🙏🏻

To he who is pure, everything is pure… to he who is not pure,… nothing is -

/It seems that you’ve misunderstood, gone beyond and yet stopped short of what is the intention of illustrating the actual body of Christ and His Bride/

I fully understand that the body of Christ is NOW made up of Jews and Gentiles (Ephe 3:6). That's not even an issue with me and is a given.

I am aware also that the word Israel or Israelite in the New Testament the word Israel or Israelite is NEVER used in the New Testament as a synonym to describe the church. If one does not believe this, I would reccommend they go ahead and take a look at all of the relevant passages. At times in the New Testament, the word Israel is used in the New Testament to describe unbelieving Israel. So how can "Israel" always be a synonym for the church? A thorough examination of the passages used the word is used bears this out. Gal 6:16 has many times suffered from the dedliberate mistranslation of the word "and" into "even."

That Christ's body is now made up of Jews and Gentiles has been used to deny or abrogate the original promises made to Israel. Folks say the church does not supercede or replace Israel but this view usually is accompanied by the nation that the nation Israel is now persona non grata in God's redemptive plan.

/Regarding Israel (on a map) as the center of Gods heavenly administration here on the earth,… that ended (formally) with the destruction of the temple 70ad and now we are His Holy habitation here on the earth, ie His body -/

Yet we have come full circle. Once again after almost two thousand years, we are among the first Christian generations to be able to look upon a miraculous against all odds return of a Jewish presence in Palestine. Famous Christian teachers and authors say God allowed this for some sovereign reason, yet they never venture an opinion as to what this purpose is. No nation has ever in history made such an unlikely return. This miracles is dismissed as a outworking of carnal Zionism and nothing else. You're right about Christ within being part of the true riches of the gospel, the body of Christ is the present dwelling place of God. But why will the Antichrist turn His wrath on the Jewish people and the church and the city of Jerusalem? Why did Zechariah portray in his prophecies a latter day assault on Jerusalem? If a saved Israel (Isaiah 59:20; Romans 11:26) becomes the theocratic head of the nations at Christ's return, then the modern day return, though presently steeped in unbelief, takes on a profound significance. There has to be a Jewish presence in the land for the end time scenario to be played out. I'm believing Christ will return to the land and nation on the map from which He ascended.

Brother JFW,

In regards to your last post, and to help others who are curious, I'm going to post the main "biblical Christian view" of some of these concepts you're discussing.

The last Adam is Christ. I get what you're saying that we are raised in Him, but when you say that the last Adam is the church, you are taking away a title from him that the text is clearly giving to Him, brother.

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"so that the new Israel (body of Christ, temple here on earth, dwelling place of God) could overtake/replace the former just as Jacob did to Esau, receiving the blessing of the Father… yet Esau sought repentance there was no place found-"

So I take it that you are replacement theology.

------

I will just say that I don't agree with you on your symbolism in most of those cases. I think there is much less symbolism that you do, sir. I believe in the prophets, that when Jeremiah said "Israel" that he meant Israel, and the Holy Spirit meant Israel.

In short, as far as the latter days, I believe that Israel will go through the tribulation, where 2 out of every 3 of them will be killed, but they, the literal Israel on earth, in their own land (as it is said plainly many times over in the Old Testament) will end up taking over the third temple (which Ezekiel lays out in detail) under the rule of David and Christ. By the way David took over Zion in the Old Testament; he didn't build it he just took it over. Likewise, David will take the throne of the third temple; again he didn't build it but he will take it over, as the resurrected prince, under our resurrected Lord.

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Ezek 34:23-24 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

Ezek 37:24-25 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Hosea 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

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By the way, I came across a non-Christian website that stated the following:

"Christians believe that the promised Messiah, Jesus (Yeshua), has already come to earth once--and will come a second time to establish his millennial kingdom on the earth, ruling thereafter from Jerusalem from the throne of His forefather King David. The New Testament Epistle to the Hebrews describes the once-for-all, fully-efficacious, blood sacrifice of Jesus as the true Lamb of God. In contrast, the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant were but shadows pointing to Messiah's coming. Although the New Testament speaks three times of the existence of a Third Jewish Temple in Jerusalem at the end of the present age, as we have already discussed, the fate of that Third Temple is not given in the New Testament."

Dude, all I can say is that I couldn't say it better myself. All to say, what I am proposing is not new. People just think it is because that haven't been taught this.

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Of Jesus, Luke 1:32 says the following:

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

I asked this before, and I would love some feedback on this. In regards to the Luke passage that states that Jesus will "receive" His throne from David.

***How will Jesus receive David's throne unless a future throne is taken over by a future David and then handed over to Jesus?***

docs, I tend to agree with the premises you stated. It sounds like you also think that "Israel" means Israel, and "in their own land" means in their own land.

/docs, I tend to agree with the premises you stated. It sounds like you also think that "Israel" means Israel, and "in their own land" means in their own land./

You are correct.

You wrote.” how can "Israel" always be a synonym for the church? "
Again, there seems to be a misunderstanding here as that is not what was said,.. rather it’s both literally a place on a map (at times) and other times referring (metaphorically) to the body -

Assuredly there is no superseding or replacing of Israel by the church, rather a joining of the two into one root, itself being Holy -

Israel was and is the elect of God, His wife as it is sometimes referred to in OC…
While she is unfaithful and plays a harlot (Gomer), He nonetheless remains faithful to rescue her and make a blood sacrifice to atone for her sins- yet initially (at least) she receives it not and instead goes about as an estranged wife, having her husband’s name but not abiding in His presence-

Again, with those whom receive discipline, chastening being counted as sins and daughters and those who do not, illegitimate-

To be certain there is no offense in your rebuttal, as this is not a thought of mine but is what my eye beholds when viewing the plan of redemption :)
How can I deny what I can see 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Remember how the two "ministries” are embodied by Martha and Mary ?
With one being busy doing her own work, (He didn’t tell her to do it) and the other, as a child simply sitting at His feet, beholding His glory, awaiting His word.
The first isn’t rejected, yet we find Him to say that the lesser chose the better thing and it will not be taken away.
But we also find that the eldest, Martha, saw Him first after the resurrection because she sought Him 😉

The whole of the scriptures are both literal and allegorical, the writers intention on how to take their words/ministry is itself the syntax of the writing and (for me) it would be intellectually dishonest to reject a literal rendering of the texts where the writer fully intends to be taken literally as an actual record (Torah) while seeking to apply a literal rendering to the prophetic works where the authors themselves clearly intend the reader to see it as allegorical… 🤷🏽”â™‚️

While it’s an easy thing to brush past this fact, as it costs nothing on the front end, but go and confess the truth as it is found in the Torah as reality and see how quickly persecution will come … because if you’re being honest, you don’t really believe what it plainly states as real and true with several historical events recorded in scripture that clearly, yea undeniably, demonstrate that the record is true- 🤷🏽”â™‚️

And this is not a dig or swipe at you or your faith, it is simply the facts of the matter.

To be clear, I too find the scriptures to speak of David being present but Jesus alone is the King of kings (with David being the lesser)
Regarding "David’s throne” … (for me) this in reference to the love and loyalty wherewith David was served by Israel being contrasted with his predecessor Saul…. Which itself foreshadows the plight of Israel -

David’s throne is twofold as n that he, David was devoted to God in a way Saul never could be, likewise Israel loved and was devoted to David in a way they never could be to Saul…
Jesus receives the blessing from both God and man, just as David, hence "David’s throne” or place -

Again CN, I would say the same to you as to David, why take the prophetic works literal and reject a literal interpretation of the (literal books) Torah ?
(for me) that would be backwards 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Chillnerd

Paul said that there is ONE hope:

Eph. 4:4-6 ”“
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

This is the glorious hope Paul preached:

Col. 1:25-27 ”“
Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Then, at the end of his ministry when he was arrested and taken to Rome in chains, he said to the Jewish people in Rome:

Acts 28:20 ”“
For this reason, therefore, I requested to see you and to speak with you, for I am wearing this chain for the sake of the hope of Israel.

So, there is another hope of Israel that is totally contrary to the hope Paul preached and which got him arrested.

What to you is this other hope?

Note: This is a valid Bible Study question.

/The whole of the scriptures are both literal and allegorical, the writers intention on how to take their words/ministry is itself the syntax of the writing and (for me) it would be intellectually dishonest to reject a literal rendering of the texts where the writer fully intends to be taken literally as an actual record (Torah) while seeking to apply a literal rendering to the prophetic works where the authors themselves clearly intend the reader to see it as allegorical… 🤷🏽”â™‚️/

I'm sure the problem is with me but after reading it several times, I'm still confused what you are saying here. Can you cite an example of when I have insisted on a literal approach to a prophecy when the author intended its meaning as allegorical? I guess, if that is what you are saying.

I believe certain passages were meant to be allegorical. Meanwhile, I confess to believing that an over allegorical over spiritualized approach to interpreting prophecy is one of the main reasons replacement theology became a dominant force in so many quarters within the church. Plus Israel's long absence from the land. But like I said, we have come full circle and are among the first Christian generations in almost two thousand years to gaze upon a Jewish in the holy land. Prophecies of a latter day return have even been spiritualized dramatically diminishing a understanding of the present signifcance of the modern against all odds previously thought impossible return. How can God have been through with Israel in 70 AD in view of what we see before our very eyes.?The nation and people of Israel, to whose covenants Gentiles have gloriously been joined in Christ, was never meant to be a type. That is imposing the old covenant on the new covenant. Promises made to Abraham of a LAND and a SAVIOR will only be fulfilled in the new covenant which was the intent all along. Believing in these promises is not a return to old testament shadows and types. I'm premillennial and believe Israel will become the theocratic head of the upon Christ's return to Jerusalem from whence He ascended. Under Christ, they will minister to the nations as humble and purified servants. Replacement theology would say God was through with their role in 70 AD. I just don't believe it

I've gone on too long I believe. Oh well, it happens. Thank you for your meaty post and thoughts and I mean that. I'm just still a bit confused as to the section I highlighted at the first of this post.

Thank you brother

BranchinVINE,

Dear (sister), my hope is in the Person and work of Christ alone. Simply put, I'm just saying that David is going to be resurrected and leading Israel on the earth. David will never lead the church, my friend. The promises to Israel are exclusive. The promises to the church are exclusive. We, as the church, will be in the heavenlies with Christ while the Ezekiel resurrected dry bones come to life.

As far as understanding Colossians, I am actually teaching on Colossians verse by verse weekly in our house. I have taught verse by verse through Ephesians, same for Galatians and more or less for Philippians; I actually wrote an exegesis paper and so I dove DEEP into Philippians for a good long minute. Galatians through Colossians (especially Galatians) has kind of been the heartbeat of my life for the last few years. I have taught a portion of the book of Acts verse by verse and am currently a "sub" for my pHD friend who is teaching on Romans at church. I have not been prepared to teach on Romans until after walking with the Lord for about 20 years. All I am saying is that I am very well acquainted with the Gospels, Acts, and the Pauline Epistles, and have also done some verse by verse teaching through Revelation. I'm not saying this to pump myself up. I'm saying that the promises made to us as the church are completely separate of the promises that will culminate with Israel on the earth. So quoting from Colossians, Acts, and Ephesians does not change the fact that a resurrected David will rule as a prince over Israel on the earth while we are in the heavinlies with Christ (Revelation 1-6, check into the elders and those that have come out of the tribulation, we will be watching David and the resurrected Israel from "the mezzanine"). But I believe that we, the church, will return, with Christ and His angels "behold the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints" to help execute judgment upon His enemies.

So again, I'm not understanding why you would imply that my hope is in someone else besides Christ because I take the Old Testament promises about the Millennial Reign literally.

Well, for whatever reason, God is REALLY impressing the millennial reign upon me. Both Israel and the church "will fail" in the sense that neither of us will get the job done so Christ will personally come to earth to set everything right. It seems that a resurrected David leading a resurrected Israel on earth would fulfill all the Old Testament promises God made to Israel in full.

For example, in the Old Testament, David took Zion over, but yet the Psalms make a HUGE deal about Zion as belonging to Israel, or you might say "us" or the "team we are rooting for." Likewise, it appears that in the future, a third (Ezekiel) temple will be built, and have some strange aspects that are totally unlike the previous 2 temples (really the 3 previous temples because the 2nd temple was rebuilt). And yet it seems that David will take it over at the end of the tribulation. So he will apparently take over the 3rd temple just like he took over Zion in the Old Testament. THEN, David, in humble obedience, will hand the throne over to Messiah, who will then sit on the "throne of his father David," thus fulfilling what was prophesied in the book of Luke 1:31-33:

You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.

This concept is also found in Psalm 2, much of the book of Zechariah, much of Isaiah, a good portion of Jeremiah, Hosea, etc. I probably will just write a book about it since I find it difficult to even get started in a conversation before people try to derail me. Not because the concept of the Millennial Reign is not biblical, but because in many cases they've never even heard of it and so therefore "it cannot be true because my preacher has never preached on it." Well, I will just say, when is the last time you have heard a preacher even touch Romans 9-11? In short, Romans 9-11 is all about Israel: past, present, and future. To that point, 5/6 of the Bible deals with Israel, but I have yet to have heard a sermon dealing with Israel in depth. To that point, they really can't, because if they try to they will probably get treated the way that I am getting treated by some of you guys in this forum :)

Well, I believe that ALL Scripture is meant for our benefit: for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness. So I fell DEEPLY convicted to study all of the Bible, not just the parts I like. When you really dive into the Old Testament, you are taught about God and how he dealt with his people in the Old Testament, but it was still Father, Son, and Spirit, the plan for ultimate world redemption was still the same. The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. But the Torah, the Prophets, the Writings, etc, were still all written for OUR benefit (the church's benefit). We don't live under the law, but we can learn about God and how He deals with humanity.

What I am finding is that the Millennial Reign promise starts in Genesis 3, even before the curses are handed out. The language is describing a warrior (who is in fact Christ) who will crush the head of the serpent, and therefore the seed of the Serpent, also. David is just a reflection or a type (that is the theological term used in seminaries, it doesn't matter if I like it or not, which I don't, I'm just saying that's what our pastors are being taught, to use the word "type" which more or less means "reflection") of Christ. Christ is THE WARRIOR KING. So 2 chapters into the Bible, the Millennial Reign concept is begun in the Scriptures, woven through Genesis 49, Exodus 15, Numbers 23-24, Psalm 2, and other places I have yet to dive deep into. And this thread continues until Revelation 20 when the Millennial Reign is culminated 2 chapters short of the end of the Bible (so there are Millennial Reign bookends in the Scripture) and after the Millennial Reign we will all step into the new heavens and the new earth. At this point, it is just God and his people. There is possibly no more church and no more Israel. I honestly can't say. We are told we can't even comprehend what those conditions will be like. There is no temple in the new heavens and new earth (Rev 21:22). The conditions are essentially very EDEN like.

I hope that you can see I am not teaching people to trust in someone or something other than Christ, my dear brother. By the way, the Hebrew words that are translated "In the beginning" in Genesis 1:1 (beri sheeth) can also be translated "by the firstborn son." The entire Canon, Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:20 points to Christ, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the lion and the lamb, the first and the last, Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, etc, etc. I am FULLY trusting on Christ alone as my savior. I hope this will get rid of any doubts you have about how I feel about our Lord.

In Christ, Hal

Hi Hal,

All I am saying is that I am very well acquainted with the Gospels, Acts, and the Pauline Epistles, and have also done some verse by verse teaching through Revelation.

Good. Therefore you are well qualified to answer my question which you have not yet answered.

I wrote:

Then, at the end of his ministry when he was arrested and taken to Rome in chains, he said to the Jewish people in Rome:

Acts 28:20 ”“
For this reason, therefore, I requested to see you and to speak with you, for I am wearing this chain for the sake of the hope of Israel.

So, there is another hope of Israel that is totally contrary to the hope Paul preached and which got him arrested.

And I asked:

What to you is this other hope?

That this, what is this other hope of Israel in Acts 28:20 that was contrary to what Paul preached.

----------

I am FULLY trusting on Christ alone as my savior. I hope this will get rid of any doubts you have about how I feel about our Lord.

I am not doubting that you are FULLY trusting Christ as your Saviour. I am simply asking you about the hope of Israel in Acts 28:20 that conflicted with what Paul preached. I hope you can give your view.

Blessings

Yes we are in agreement in (almost) every aspect, both independently finding the same thing in scripture, tho in our understanding (light) we ascribe value differently on one main point, namely the "location” of said fulfillment.
Like you, I too find that the dispensationalist/replacement theology adherents do indeed go beyond and yet stop short of what the scriptures say, which is to say they grew one plant at the expense of the others (growth being by the application of light/knowledge). While in truth the sun shines on all and ground nourishes all, these have isolated a particular doctrine, applying fertilizer as it were, producing a disproportion of value where the word of God does not. This produces areas where in the shadow of an overgrown, overdeveloped "plant” whereby darkness (ignorance) resides, they will proceed no further until which time they allow the Lord to prune this "plant” back and repent. For a man is only truly wrong in thinking he is right 🤷🏽”â™‚️ This is the work of the Lords Spirit, to correct, yet it is up to us to receive this correction and no one can do for us what we must do for ourselves. This type of work (that requires correction) is done not in concordance with the spirit but is of the flesh, and tho they find a measure of success, that success is in the wrong thing and the whole of it will be as wood, hay, and stubble… resulting in great loss, in that they like the foolish Galatians began in the spirit yet sought perfection by the law as it were.

Actually that serves to illustrate the area that is in need of light,…

Galatians 4:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
(((((24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.)))))
((((25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.))))
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
((((30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.))))
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Perhaps a careful consideration of the highlighted passages will serve to illustrate what (for me) Paul is hoping to dispel the notion (ignorance) that there will be any heirs after the flesh but only after the spirit of Christ through the promise, by faith and without the law, for it had not yet been given and itself was only given due to their lack of faith that it might be a means to lead them to Christ. Yet they, to this day, do reject Him and as such are counted as the above passage states, counted as with the bond woman = bondage, or Jews after the flesh but not after the Spirit.

Jesus states that nothing that first didn’t come down from heaven will be received in heaven… we all (including Jews) must be born again (Nicodemus) else we cannot enter His kingdom- for the stone that the builder refuses will be the chief cornerstone.
Israel from above/Jacob, the Church, the Body, the Kingdom are one and is
itself founded on the apostles and prophets (not law/Sinai/ earthly Israel) with Christ as the cornerstone. This is by personal revelation alone,… just as Jacob (before a place in a map) did fight for it and indeed did obtain the blessing, for the scriptures declare he took hold and would not release the "angel” till he received it. What faith! What perseverance! Believing and suffering personal injury he obtained that which was beforehand unseen. Which is why we, being spiritual Jews (circumcised heart) do rejoice and honor these as elders as forefathers of our faith. For it was obtained by faith (promise) and not by flesh (law), wherein the law (MRI) only serves to diagnose the cancer (sin) being in and of itself incapable of providing a cure, yet leads us to Christ (oncologist) to receive grace (light/chemo). These members (cells) of the body aren’t necessarily lazy, rather they are quite active yet are not receiving their instruction from the head (Christ) but are (with good intentions) operating as their own local authority/head - law. In this analogy it’s easy to see why the whole of heaven/body rejoices more over the repentance/remission of one sinner/cancerous cell than from 99 righteous/non-cancerous cells !
Remember we are placed in Christ not by our own efforts/righteousness but by the will of God -
1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
(footnote; we glory in the Lord (His body, for we are one body) not in Israel on a map 🤷🏽”â™‚️
Likewise we are presently seated in Christ at the right hand of God in heaven …
Ephesians 2: 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (Footnote; which is to say through His body, for we are one body, and we who are of Christs body, serve only the Head.)

In the same way Israel was formed in Jacob to be later manifested as a location on a map, inhabited by the children of Jacob, so too was the body/kingdom of Heaven was formed in Christ to be later manifested as a unified body being itself inhabited by God and His children . In this way there can be observed, types and shadows… a prophetic pattern if you like, of the actual (spiritually) living Israel comprised not only of Jews, as was Jacobs Israel but of people of every tribe and tongue, of every nation of the world now being made partakers (spiritual Jews) of the inheritance of Jerusalem from above 🙏🏻

Truly our God is great and rich in mercy for He has made a way for us who was without the promise, not heirs, to become heirs through faith in the one whom has once and forever secured an entrance for all (not just Jews by birth) who believe/trust and obey/keep His commandments. ✝️

Yet just like Israel (naturally born Jews) who where in unbelief were cut out, so too shall we be, for if He spared not the natural branches how much more will the wild not be spared. Yet this was His plan all along,… to have the two in one 😇

Hope this helps and I pray this will be profitable in our understanding of how great our salvation actually is when viewed as a singular (living) organism with Christ as its Head.

Edit to add: while driving to work this morning (after posting response) Aaron Roger’s was on the radio teaching out of Romans 11 and a thing occurred to me that he sites that I hope to have opportunity to parse out later -
Having said that it is important to remember Jesus never asked us to be lawyers (tho our flesh desires to be) rather just witnesses… not bringing forth what we from studying the law but from what we see/behold as witnesses and it os this testimony that glorifies Christ, the testimony is of His work whereas the study of the law is ours and no flesh shall glory in His sight.

Ha! He is Adrian Rogers not Aaron, my apologies 🙏🏻

My hope again, is to be faithful to the Spirit He gave me, hearing Him clearly and obeying Him completely, yet in spite of His divine influence (grace) all too often my zeal lacks the quiet discipline of self control and this leaves me ill equipped in certain areas, like with those still running the race,… tho at times like a donkey, I run with you toward the same prize. 😇

Regarding Adrian Rogers, Romans 11 this morning,… He undoubtedly shares a common perspective with the greater Church as he is one of the teachers of the Church, (and what i understand to be your general current position) while leaving room for the areas that yet lack a consensus this far. And it is precisely these areas that my hope is to bear light upon 🙏🏻

It’s been said that, "sometimes it’s better to use something that is not a horse to show what a horse is”
With this. perhaps a better way to go about this is to see it elsewhere (not Rom 11) and once apprehended, revisiting Rom 11 with the additional relevant passages viewing them also in this light -
The conclusion Paul draws out in the remaining portion of the above quoted part from Ephesians 2 does far more than I could hope to in illustrating the body as Gods plan all along and it is all encompassing insofar as it’s potential to save anyone/everyone who is willing to abide in the covenant.

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

I’m testifying to what I see when I read this,… not because I’ve "studied this out” but because He provides the light and I’m just a witness-
Not an expert testimony, not a lawyer,… just a witness 🤷🏽”â™‚️

(For me) Paul is making a sincere effort to illustrate Gods plan of redemption by forming the body through grace (divine influence) which themselves grow up into the head which is Christ who unites them (both) through faith based on the promise not on the law. When the number of the gentiles is full that will itself make the natural heirs jealous as it were and they will likewise be grafted back in. This is (in my understanding) the unification/manifestation of the corporate body of Christ here on earth, (Rom 8 manifestation of the sins and daughters of God). The beginning of the millennial reign- perhaps the still unbelieving Jews will be saved during this period so that after seeing "Him” as CN/Hal says they will believe ✝️ let us hope so 🙏🏻

In any case, thank you for this fellowship and the opportunity to share what He has shown me 😇

\t\t

BranchinVINE,

Ah! Thanks for explaining it that way. Verse 23 explains the hope, and the hope is Christ:

They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

What other view would there be?

Brother Fletcher

I'm not sure how you are drawing that I believe that anyone is saved by the law. I think you're assuming something, my friend. Why don't we go step by step?

a) Do you think because Israel is on earth during the tribulation that someone must be saved by the law?

b) We're not called to be lawyers, but we are called to study the Word of God, and that includes the Bible "that Jesus used", the Bible "that Paul used." They had no New Testament. Check these Old Testament verses out:

Gen 15:6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Deut 30:6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Job 42:10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before.

2 Kings 5:14 So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy. (said of a non-Jewish commander)

These are all examples of grace in the Old Testament. There are many more. So Israel was supposed to be an extension of God's grace to the Gentiles, but they misused the law. That is what Romans is explaining, in part.

So again, me believing that an Israeli remnant will go through the tribulation in order to get it right concerning God's grace does not mean that I am proposing that anyone is saved by the law. I think that you are assuming because someone believes in the rapture that they are dispensational or some other flavor of older theology. I find holes in all the old theology versions, which is why I posted my own.

I hope that you will not post anymore to try to convince me that everyone is saved by God's grace, because I already believe this, my dear brother.

Verse 23 explains the hope, and the hope is Christ:

They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

But the Jews in Jerusalem had Paul arrested and put in chains because of this message. Surely, then, they had a different hope? A different Messiah, a different kingdom of God and a different interpretation of the Law of Moses and the prophets? Otherwise why would they arrest Paul?

Brother JFW,

You posted:

-----

Again CN, I would say the same to you as to David, why take the prophetic works literal and reject a literal interpretation of the (literal books) Torah ?
(for me) that would be backwards 🤷🏽”â™‚️

-----

Here is my reply:

I am also not sure how taking the prophets literally makes one reject Torah. Please explain, my friend.

(LATER EDIT FOR CLARITY: The prophets built on Torah)

Please forgive the clumsiness wherewith my words may not covey the totality of both the body/Kingdom/Israel and it’s members Jews/gentiles, tho nonetheless my desire is to be faithful to the word/light I received 🙏🏻

a) no

b) again it was not my intention to suggest that anyone on SI is suggesting that some will be saved by the law-

What I am testifying to is that Israel is not yet in her full maturity as an active participant in the body of Christ, rather because they are by and large still under the law due to the fact they (as a group) reject the Messiah , Jesus of Nazareth- but when the fullness of the gentiles is come in they too will repent and be grafted back in.

Yes we should study, yea we should consume the Word and thereby be transformed as it renews us in the spirit of our minds to the fact that Christ alone is Head of His body (which we are members) just as He is King of Israel :)

c) yes wether the OC or NC,… Christ in all and through all for the whole of it is His story ✝️

Did I say that taking the prophets literally means one rejects the Torah ??
If so or somehow that’s what was gathered then I have yet more to do as this is in no way my intention as it would be ludicrous to suggest such a thing.

Having said that, my remarks regarding the intention of Moshe when writing the Torah was to be taken literally not as a story of creation as it were but a record of it…. even modern scholars thru textural analysis of the texts generally agree this was in fact his intention-

I was hoping to contrast his (Moses) intention to be taken literally (which most don’t) with the prophetic works including John’s revelation where they intended to be taken allegorically, yet mostly we take them in literal terms of fulfillment.

Again this seems backwards to me 🤷🏽”â™‚️

An easy example of this is how God, by His Spirit wrote/breathed the whole of the scriptures and in them clearly and undeniably states the earth has a firm, fixed dome over it with both the sun and moon "inside” it, meaning a local closed system presented as a geocentric model…
Is that your confession?
If not, why not?
as it is what Moses plainly states is true and this "model” is upheld by actual historical events also recorded as fact in the selfsame scripture -
ie; Hezekiah’s issue/Isaiah’s remedy (clearly geocentric)
as well as the record of Joshua 10 where the sun stood "still” (clearly geocentric)
These are actual historical events, recorded as such in the scriptures as facts not allegory 🤷🏽”â™‚️

//An easy example of this is how God, by His Spirit wrote/breathed the whole of the scriptures and in them clearly and undeniably states the earth has a firm, fixed dome over it with both the sun and moon "inside” it, meaning a local closed system presented as a geocentric model… Is that your confession?//

I can’t tell if you are being serious or not. I will gladly confess it’s not my confession because I cannot believe in ridiculous silliness.

Hal,

Just to add to my last post:

I just can’t find Paul preaching your A-Z (most of it anyway) and I can’t find Paul interpreting the Prophets as you have done. Your view may not be exactly the same as the Jewish view but you seem to have borrowed from it and you certainly have added things that Paul did not preach.

What would Paul say?

Which part?
Genesis record or Joshua…. Or both?
If so please explain-

Fletcher, are you advocating flat earth with your post about a dome with the sun and moon within it, and the earth as its centre?

//Which part?
Genesis record or Joshua…. Or both? //

First I want to apologize for my tone which was crass at best.

I think the Genesis record and perhaps some of the Psalms talking about "pillars of the earth” etc is simply an expression of how the ancients perceived the universe. In Hinduism the earth is held up by 2 elephants standing on the back of a turtle. To put it simply, they were wrong. That is because God, for purposes known only to Him, chose not to reveal the universe and its creation in its scientific complexity. How could He? These were ancient people that had no scientific knowledge to speak of. I am not saying they were not extremely intelligent and doubtless could have been taught such things if there was someone to teach them.

That being said, I don’t have a problem at all with the miracle detailed in Joshua. God made the sun appear to not set, or perhaps He really caused it not to set. God can do what He wants- the question is what in fact He did. And again for His own reasons He does not tell us everything.

No offense taken, I understand this is a "knee jerk” issue for many reasons, no offense taken whatsoever… as I too appreciate science (method) in its attempt to understand and classify the works of our Fathers hand as it were 🙏🏻

Having said that, science as an institution would be comical except for the masses that worship at its altars as this so called science presents itself as a supreme entity.
It has, in many ways, become religion of sorts where the influence of its "so called discoveries” are forced upon a people as fact when they themselves are devoid of the basic tenets of science as a method.

Tesla (Nikolai) voiced similar concerns and witty criticisms regarding this phenomenon (institutionalization of science) which has began beforehand and included evolution (as a fact) in that tho it was called, in the world’s education systems, a theory, it was presented as fact. Where now an entire series of successive generations are in fact under the influence in a very subtle yet powerful way. This i submit to you, is humanism 101 .
Man’s attempt to subdue himself or to say be his own "god” .
Artificial intelligence would also be an example of this (with man as an extension of himself) where the creation exceeding the creator which symbolizes or parallels man exceeding "god”. This is nothing new…. just the same ole presented in fresh packaging where the amount of funding it took to produce is itself the "proof” of it value. Yet we have a better value in Christ so we should not be surprised or moved in any way by the claims of science as an institution,… I mean why would we ?? Are we surprised when unsaved unregenerate people act like,…. wait for it …. unregenerate unsaved people 🤷🏽”â™‚️

So to be clear, my intention here in this thread is to shine my lil light regarding Hal’s original question- in doing so (for me) it cannot be "scientifically” answered, which is to say demonstrated, without seeing it in it’s natural context of the overarching plan of God. For that is precisely it’s home and as such can’t accurately be viewed exclusively in a vacuum, which is what we often do with the scriptures… we’re like dr Frankenstein (the doctor) in the way we chop up all these parts and piece the together In un-befitting, twisted ways creating monsters that in no way serve the Kingdom (body of Christ/Israel from above)
and not only that, we try to give life” to our abominable idols. It’s gross brother and it grieves Holy Spirit in ways that will make you shutter 💯 once you see it.

Let me be a bit more forward, in love 🙏🏻
We who are not profiting the body are it’s cancers and if we don’t repent and let God alone be true and everyman a liar, we will be cut and thrust out and I don’t want to see that to happen to anyone. Tho if it does, it won’t be from a lack in Christ✝️

not sure exactly where you got that? Does the Bible say that or something else?

In any case, if I’m advocating anything it’s 💯 Christ centric 🙏🏻

Let Him come as He is, without precondition, has He not proved Himself faithful?

Brother docs,

I am rereading all the posts and read over this that you posted:

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The Day of the Lord:

1) Christ returns.

2) The righteous dead are raised and glorified along with
living believers.

3) The AC and the armies assaulting the land and Jerusalem
are destroyed.

4) Christ reveals Himself to the eschatological remnant of
Israel typified by Joseph revealing himself to his
brothers. A believing nation is born in one day.

5) This present evil age ends and the first day the
Millennial age begins.

6) Israel "lies down in safety" never to be abused again by
hostile Gentile powers.

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I have to say I'm in agreement with what you posted here I just insert things before and after that you have not.

***(except that I believe the nation that became Israel was born as Israel when they came out of Egypt, there may be a subsequent scriptural "birthing" that I'm not aware of, though)***

So what about the tribulation (the time of Jacob's trouble)? I don't see that included

Hey Branch,

That's okay. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. You won't find my posted A-Z from reading only Paul. You will find it from reading the poetic / prophetic passages starting in Genesis 3 and looking at particular passages throughout the Bible that culminate with Revelation 20. It is not in much of the general text, it is found in the poetic / prophetic passages. There are many intentional Hebrew poetic seams and prophetic seams that are in the Old Testament that highlight a coming warrior king who will rule on earth as king. This king is Christ.

Also, I think there were a lot of Jews 2000 years ago who were expecting this King who were disappointed when Christ came as the Lamb. Well I am saying that He will come back to the Earth in the future, and this time, as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, hence fulfilling Gen 3, Gen 49, the Exodus 15 song, Balaam's poetry of Num 23-24, etc, etc, and many more that I am still trying to organize together.

I think what you are saying is that Christ is the culmination of the prophets. I am agreeing with you. Where I may not be explaining myself well is that I am trying to say that all the Scriptures concening Jesus have only been fulfilled in part. There are many, many more verses about what Christ is going to do on the Earth yet future.

I know that this seems preposterous. Chuck Missler made this claim and I heard it 15 years ago, yet it still stands true. He said that there were more Old Testament promises about Christ that have yet to be fulfilled, than were fulfilled when Jesus walked the Earth 2000 years ago. Well I have attempted to disprove his thesis and I can tell you there are many, many more passages about Christ and the earth that are yet future.

The reason Paul didn't talk about the Millennial Reign so much is that he was trying to get everyone saved and unified. Paul does speak about the Millennial Reign but it is more in passing (2 Tim 2:12, also John in Rev 2:27). Most of what was written about the Millennial Reign was written ahead of time by the Old Testament prophets. Why? I have no clue, at the moment. But my best guess is that, like Proverbs says: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.”

I hope you and JFW will understand that I am not trying to undermine the main message of Scripture. I stand in agreement with both of you concerning the Person and work of Christ. I am talking about what Jesus will do here on the Earth in the future.

Thanks and God bless, Hal

Hal,

Thank you for your reply.

This matter has already been discussed many times on this forum.

We are on different tracks and never the twain shall meet.

Time and eternity will reveal the truth.

I am keeping to the Gospel that Paul preached.

The Lord Jesus said in John 18:36: "My kingdom is not of this world………My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Peter said:

2 Pet. 3:10-13 ”“
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up…………the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

NOTE: "But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.”

Rom. 14:17 ”“ "for the kingdom of God is……righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.”

Mount Zion relates to the church of the firstborn (Heb. 12:22-24)

It is to the Church that comprises the Jewish remnant believers and Gentile believers that is said:

Rev. 1:5-6 ”“
To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood”” and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father””to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Rev. 2:27 was said to overcomers in the Church.

And it is the New Jerusalem that come down out of heaven from God (Rev. 21:10) that will give the light by which the nations will walk (Rev. 21:24).

ADD:
As to the Millenium, Peter did say that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day (2 Pet. 3:8)

I am leaving this thread.

Blessings.

/(except that I believe the nation that became Israel was born as Israel when they came out of Egypt, there may be a subsequent scriptural "birthing" that I'm not aware of, though)***

So what about the tribulation (the time of Jacob's trouble)? I don't see that included/

I too believe that the nation was birthed when it came out of Egypt although the nation from that point on always had rebels and disobedience among its ranks. In the post-tribulational revealing of Christ to His enstranged brethren (Zechariah 12:10-14), there will no longer be disobedience and rebellion. All of Israel shall be saved and they shall ALL know the Lord from the least to the greatest. This all believing remnant of a nation will be born in a day (Isaiah 66:7-9).

I don't believe the time of Jacob's trouble is part of the day of the Lord but rather Jacob's trouble culminates in the day of the Lord at the end of the age. A friend of mine says it better than I do. See below.

It is a very specific day ("one day”; Isa 66:9; Zech 3:9; 14:7), around which is clustered an intensive convergence of many events, leading to, and issuing from, that are certainly not confined to one day. It is the day and hour, even instant (1Cor 15:52) that constitutes the great transition between this age and the age to come.

To answer your last question first, most definitely and assuredly Eze 39:8 is the "great day of God Almighty" referred to in Rev 16:12-17. This is seen very clearly by observing that the same, very precise language of Eze 39:8 is applied to the "great day of God Almighty” in Rev 16:17.

Significantly, this day is shown to come in conjunction with the 7th bowl, which significantly follows Jesus’ announcement that His now truly imminent coming will be "like a thief” (Rev 16:15). This announcement is significantly interjected between the 6th and 7th bowls. So the time in view here is very precisely the very end of the tribulation.

Note too that in all of scripture, the only two places that the precise term, "day of God” is found is in 2Pet 3:12 and Rev 16:14. In second Peter, the "day of God” is a synonym for the thief-like day of the Lord (2Pet 3:10, 12). These are important markers, since in both 2Pet 3:10-12 and Rev 16:12-17, the "day of God” comes as a thief on the unsuspecting world of unbelievers at the very end of the tribulation.

From this you can see that the DOL and the great day of God Almighty are the same day, and the latter is clearly at the 7th bowl. The DOL doesn’t get any narrower than that, and this is the usual meaning throughout the prophets.

However, there are 3 possible (?) exceptions to this rule. As far as I’m aware, there are exactly 3 places where the DOL appears to comprehend all of the the last half of Daniel’s 70th week. These are Joel 2:1-3; Jer 30:7; 1Thes 5:3.

Jer 30:7 uses the term "that day”, but does this mean the whole 3 1/2 years of Zion’s travail is "that day”? or is this language intended to signify that the onset birth pangs brings on that day?

The same could be said of Joel 2:1-3. There we see the Land as a scene of Edenic verdant beauty when suddenly invaded by the northern army, likened to an army of devouring locust that turns the Land to a blackened desolation.

We know the Land is not Edenic at the end of the tribulation but at the start. So does the invasion start the DOL or does it end in the DOL?

A number of scriptures in the prophets, including Joel, place the DOL as "near” or "at hand”, not at the outset of the tribulation but at its end, when the armies of the earth are gathered, even after the stellar darkness that takes place "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days” (Isa 13:10-11; 34:4; Joel 2:2, 31; 3:15; Zeph 1:15; Mt 24:29; Acts 2:20; Rev 6:12).

So if the DOL is AFTER this darkening of the sun and moon (Mt 24:29; Acts 2:20) And if the darkness is AFTER the tribulation, then the DOL / great day of God Almighty is a very specific time AFTER the darkness that AFTER "the tribulation of those days”, i.e., the end of the end.

Joel 3:14
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is NEAR in the valley of decision.

Here the armies have gathered for Armageddon at the end of the tribulation, but the DOL is not yet. Here is a rhyme that underscores the point. "If anything should be CLEAR, it is that when something is NEAR, it is not yet HERE!” 😊

This suggests that mention of the things that start the final 3 1/2 years are not the DOL precisely, but are the events that trigger it and terminate with it.

The same can be said of the final example in 1Thes 5:3.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Although the DOL comes as a thief, it is never represented as imminent or independent of preceding signs. For example, in 2Thes 2:1-3 "that day” must be preceded by the falling away and the revelation of the man of lawlessness. So here, in 1Thes 5:3, the day cannot arrive unless it is first preceded by a recognizable declaration (presumption) of "peace and safety”. This is yet another sign that must precede the DOL.

Certainly, this is not the end of the tribulation, since the last moments of the history of this age ends in anything BUT peace and safety. So what is this declaration and when is it?

The most likely background for what Paul is anticipating here is found Eze 38:8, 11, 14; 39:26 (also Isa 28:15, 18). There the attack of the final agressor of whom, not only Ezekiel, but "ALL” the prophets have spoken (Eze 38:17) finds the covenant people under the delusion of presumed safety. That this is not abiding millennial security but pre-tribulational false security is shown by observing that this invasion that ends with Israel’s national regeneration (Eze 39:21-29).

So here you have the DOL coming upon a recently regathered nation that is dwelling in a fragile, false security (38:8, 11, 14; 39:26). Since we know this security does not exist after the tribulation begins, the question comes: Is this sudden disruption of Israel’s peace the arrival / beginning of the DOL? (i.e., a broader period, inclusive of the entirety of the 3 1/2 years). Or, is this invasion simply the event that brings on the DOL 3 1/2 years later?

In view of the above evidence that so well defines the DOL and places it (in the far greater number of references) at the very end of the tribulation, I am inclined to favor the latter. Moreover, every error that I know that places the rapture before the end, whether pre-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath, all depend on moving the DOL around to different starting points in order to extend the DOL to include all, or some significant portion of Daniel’s 70th week

(note that only the last half of 70th week should be seen as the "great tribulation”, because until the abomination is placed in the middle of the seven, Israel is under the illusion that peace has come).

For example, pre-tribulations can only be maintained by making the DOL include the entirety of the 70th week. Just why their system stands or falls with this ‘assumption’ is a discussion too tedious and involved to embark upon here, but it’s a study in how the defense of one inference, not explicitly stated in scripture, requires the defense of another inference, also not explicitly stated in scripture.

Hope that helps.

JFW

You posted:

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Please forgive the clumsiness wherewith my words may not covey the totality of both the body/Kingdom/Israel and it’s members Jews/gentiles, tho nonetheless my desire is to be faithful to the word/light I received 🙏🏻

a) no

b) again it was not my intention to suggest that anyone on SI is suggesting that some will be saved by the law-

What I am testifying to is that Israel is not yet in her full maturity as an active participant in the body of Christ, rather because they are by and large still under the law due to the fact they (as a group) reject the Messiah , Jesus of Nazareth- but when the fullness of the gentiles is come in they too will repent and be grafted back in.

Yes we should study, yea we should consume the Word and thereby be transformed as it renews us in the spirit of our minds to the fact that Christ alone is Head of His body (which we are members) just as He is King of Israel :)

c) yes wether the OC or NC,… Christ in all and through all for the whole of it is His story ✝️

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I'm posting:

I love you, brother, and I hope that God is blessing you while you walk with Him, minister, and study.

(For me) it’s not about a place so much as it is a presence,..

When reading Joshua 9-10 , it’s easy to see Jesus (Joshua) and His body (Israel). Just as it is when reading Isaiah or Jeremiah or…

Thank you for your charity and may we all have the mind of Christ ✝️

Brother docs,

On the "birth" of Israel, I pick up a past Egyptian birth of Israel in Isa 66, but that the womb has not been "seal closed"; now others may also been born and therefore joint-heirs. This is just after a quick read and quick interpretation. I would want to weigh that concept as I study.

On the Day of the Lord, it sounds like we are in agreement or close.

God bless, my friend

Hello Branch,

I wish you the best in everything, my dear sister.

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For anyone that might be interested in the poetic / Messianic / prophetic seams that the Holy Spirit "pre-installed" in Scripture, Gen 3:15 is where you would want to start:

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=5984120438347670&set=a.230252030401235

(If anyone can help me get this posted on here please let me know)

I drew this up in our Master's class with a Hebrew pHD professor looking on, correcting, adding, etc, to make sure I'm not starting with incorrect information.

Please ask if you have questions. I just tapped into the whole concept in ways that I had never noticed. Balaam's narrative and the prophecies are an absolute trip!

Keep in mind that Ex 15, Num 23, and Deut 31 all say that the prophet is speaking of the Messiah, the Warrior King, the restorer of Eden, the Hero of Israel, the King of Israel, with reference to:

"the last days"

b'acharit hayamim

בְּאַחֲרִית הַיָּמִֽים

Very cool stuff!