What the early church thought of the rapture/ resserection Latin vulgate 1th4.16Then we who are al

Latin vulgate

1th4.16Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord.

quoniam ipse Dominus in iussu et in voce archangeli et in tuba Dei descendet de caelo et mortui qui in Christo sunt resurgent primi

1th4.17Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words. deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

rapio (VPAR): drag off; snatch; destroy; seize, carry off; pillage; hurry; raptim (ADV): hurriedly, suddenly; rapto (VPAR): drag violently off; ravage; raptor (N): robber; plunderer; raptum (VPAR): plunder; prey; raptus (VPAR): violent snatching or dragging away; robbery, carrying off, abduction;

The noun rapture itself was etymologically problematic: according to the OED, post-classical Latin raptura was variously used to mean poaching, rape, and abduction. And similar meanings carried on to some extent in English:

1595 F. Sabie Fissher-mans Tale sig. Cv, Priams famous towne, Nere bought so deare the rapture of faire Hellen.
1600 T. Dekker Old Fortunatus sig. H4v, That feare, Which her late violent rapture cast vpon her.
1612 Life & Death Lewis Gaufredy sig. C1, Great bitternes and affliction, as hers was after the rapture of her childe.
?1615 G. Chapman tr. Homer Odysses (new ed.) xx. 485 My women servants dragg'd about my house To lust and rapture
1632 G. Sandys tr. Ovid Metamorphosis (new ed.) v. 171 Lo, I the man, that will vpon thy life Reuenge, said he, the rapture of my wife

you can see why I don't like to use this word

this is the early church fathers on 1 thess 4 they use the term resserection

Homilies Of St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop Of Constantinople, On The First Epistle Of St. Paul The Apostle To The Thessalonians

Homily VIII 1 Thessalonians iv. 15”“17 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in nowise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we that are alive, that are left, shall
together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” The Prophets indeed, wishing to show the credibility of the things said by them, before all other things say this, "The vision which Isaiah saw” (Isa. i. 1.); and again, "The word of the Lord which came to Jeremiah” (Jer. i. 1, Sept); and again, "Thus saith the Lord”; with many such expressions. And many of them even saw God sitting, as far as it was possible for them to see Him. But Paul not having seen Him sitting, but having Christ speaking in himself, instead of Thus saith the Lord, said, "Do ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me?” (2 Cor. xiii. 3.) And again, "Paul, an Apostle of Jesus Christ.” For the "Apostle” speaks the things of Him who sent him; showing that nothing is of himself. And again, "I think that
I also have the Spirit of God.” (1 Cor. vii. 40.) All those things therefore he spake by the Spirit, but this, which he now says, he heard even expressly from God. As also that which he had said discoursing to the Elders of Ephesus, "It is more blessed to give than to receive,” he heard among things not recorded. (Acts xx. 35.) Let us then see what he now also says. "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in nowise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the last trump.” For then, he saith, "The powers of the heavens shall be shaken.” (Matt. xxiv. 29.) But wherefore with the trumpet? For we see this on Mount Sinai too, and Angels there also. But what
means the voice of the Archangel? As he said in the parable of the Virgins, Arise! "The Bridegroom cometh.” (From Matt. xxv. 6.) Either it means this, or that as in the case of a king, so also shall it then be, Angels ministering at the Resurrection. For He says, let the dead rise, and the work is done, the Angels not having power to do this, but His word. As if upon a king’s commanding and saying it, those who were shut up should go forth, and the servants should lead them out, yet they do this not from their own power, but from that Voice. This also Christ says in another place: "He shall send forth his Angels with a great trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matt. xxiv. 31.) And everywhere you see the Angels running to and fro. The Archangel therefore I think is he
who is set over those who are sent forth, and who shouts thus: "Make all men ready, for the Judge is at hand.” And what is "at the last trumpet”? Here he implies that there are many trumpets, and that at the last the Judge descends. "And the dead,” he says, "in Christ shall rise first. Then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Ver. 18. "Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” If He is about to descend, on what account shall we be caught up? For the sake of honor. For when a king drives into a city, those who are in honor go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge within. And upon the coming of an affectionate father, his children in

be his children, are taken out in a chariot, that they may see and kiss him; but those of the domestics who have offended remain within. We are carried upon the chariot of our Father. For He received Him up in the clouds, and "we shall be caught up in the clouds.” (Acts i. 9.) Seest thou how great is the honor? and as He descends, we go forth to meet Him, and, what is more blessed than all, so we shall be with Him. "Who shall speak of the mightinesses of the Lord, and make all His praises to be heard?” (Ps. cvi. 2, Sept.) How many blessings has He vouchsafed to the human race! Those who are dead are raised first, and thus the meeting takes place together. Abel who died before all shall then meet Him together with those who are alive. So that they in this respect will have no advantage, but he who is
corrupted, and has been so many years in the earth, shall meet Him with them, and so all the others. For if they awaited us, that we might be crowned, as elsewhere he says in an Epistle, "God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect” (Heb. xi. 40.), much more shall we also await them; or rather, they indeed awaited, but we not at all. For the Resurrection takes place "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” But as to the saying, that they are gathered together; they arise indeed everywhere, but are gathered together by the Angels. The former therefore is the work of the power of God commanding the earth to give up its deposit, and there is no one who ministers in it, as He then called Lazarus, "Lazarus, come forth” (John xi. 43.); but the gathering is the work of ministers

Hi Deltadom,
Just a couple of points I think are edifying.
NASB Version
Behold, I am telling you a [w]mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [x]imperishable, and we will be changed.

This statement is not true in my opinion "For the Resurrection takes place "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”

Whether you call it a translation or rapture or ressurection or whatever this scripture is being misread by all sides in my opinion.
The "rapture" or "ressurection" does not happen in the "twinkling of an eye".ONLY Part of the rapture or ressurection happens in the twinkling of an eye .The changing part happens in the twinkling but the rest takes time and because it takes time it will be visable to all people on the earth,
urs staff

I am not quoting myself i am quoting an early church fathers commentary on 1 thess 4 as they had never heard of the rapture they called it the resserection

As I quote other uses of the word rapture in other latin literature and it is shocking

When I quote this I go back to the source and would tend to quote the Greek

Notice the quote of the Latin vulgate as I put the translation side by side and what you realise raptumi isjt the word rapture

If you notice here most of what I have quoted is from other sources

As far as I've read it was invented by a girl names Mary (Margaret) McDonald who was sick with a fever, and in her delirium, she mentioned the rapture and a Jesuit priest grabbed onto it and ran with it.

At least that's the story I've heard.

The word is actually not in the vulgate as I quote the vulgate here in my original post
I quote other uses of that word in Latin

I amazed that noone is shocked about the uses of rapture in literature

In the Wikipedia article it quotes her vision
I don't think the rapture is mentioned I think it was a John Nelson Darby invention

see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived ”“ This is the fiery trial which is to try us. ”“ It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed ”“ but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest ”“ the love of many will wax cold.
I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive ”“ for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work ”“ he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God ”“ and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he ”“ when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will be outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit ”“ have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan ”“ be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb. I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God.
When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it ”“ they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross. I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been ”“ the servants of God sealed in their foreheads ”“ great conformity to Jesus ”“ his holy image seen in his people ”“ just the bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air ”“ and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus."
See also

I also looked up ribero original book as it is Spanish I think the term was originally used by
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/In_sacram_beati_Ioannis_Apostoli_et_Evan.html?id=fxhL_WXi6fUC&redir_esc=y

I think it was originally use by John Nelson Darby I hate the term rapture

I can show you some more times where it is used in other literature and the term harpizo

The "rapture" or "ressurection" does not happen in the "twinkling of an eye".ONLY Part of the rapture or ressurection happens in the twinkling of an eye .The changing part happens in the twinkling but the rest takes time and because it takes time it will be visable to all people on the earth,

How do you know this statement is not true, that it will take time for all people to hear it? Every single translation at https://biblehub.com/parallel/1_corinthians/15-52.htm shows twinkling or blink but it all happens AT THE LAST TRUMP!

I don't understand your disagreeing with the plainly written word and your limiting of God, Staff. Is God not so great that if He wants a supernatural loud and long blast of the trumpet (or shofar) that the whole earth will hear it, all at one time? A trumpet sound so loud and long that buildings shake and crumble?

I believe that God can make every person on this earth at one time hear the last Trump in the twinkling of an eye!!

God bless you, Staff,
Lisa

I still don't think it is clicking
Even the people who I have done a bible study haven't clicked what this word actually means

1594 G. Chapman Σκíα Νυκτóς sig. Aij, It is an exceeding rapture of delight in the deepe search of knowledge”¥that maketh men manfully indure th'extremes incident to that Herculean labour.
1603 M. Drayton Barrons Wars iii. lviii. 67 Those pleasing raptures from her graces rise, Strongly inuading his impressive breast.
1642 Milton Apol. Smectymnuus in Wks. (1851) III. 287 This manӴsees truth as in a rapture, and cleaves to it.
1744 J. Wesley & C. Wesley Coll. Psalms & Hymns (ed. 3) i. 55 If aught can there enhance their Bliss Or raise their Raptures higher.
1762 O. Goldsmith Citizen of World I. 36 He is instantly in raptures at so great an improvement.

And we want to use this word in church

Howkmng does it take people to click what this word actually means

Hi Lysa,
Its you who are disagreeing with the plainly written text.
It clearly when read carefully says that the changing will be in the twinkling of an eye .I said nothing at all about the Trump or about limiting of God.
What the section clearly says is that this is a process and the writer is explaining in detail the process.What most people are getting wrong is that the "changing" is only a part of the process and is indeed the only part that happens at light speed.All other parts take some time.
A Trump by its very nature is at a least one musical note and if a musical note lasts only the twinkling of an eye then it can not be heard as it is far too quick.
You yourself says as much in your qoute:
" A trumpet sound so loud and long that buildings shake and crumble?"
So its obvious then that the whole or complete rapture or ressurection does not happen in the twinkling of an eye only the changing from corruptable to incorruptable.
As the only reason that people think the ressurection is not seen is because of the shortness or time ie the twinkling of an eye then we can now say with certainty that the ressurection or rapture shown in this passage will be seen by all people.What I am saying is clearly scriptural,the ressurection mentioned here takes time and is a process and only part of it is mentioned as happening at light speed or faster,urs staff

Hi All,
WHY THE EXPLANTION AND THE ORDER OF THINGS
Paul writes to clear up an issue about whether their was a ressurection
A
1 COR 15:12
Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
B
Paul reveals the Mystery of the Ressurection and is saying their are two groups of people asleep and not asleep but that both the asleep and the awake will all be changed

51 Behold, I am telling you a [w]mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed

C
Paul Explains the Order or process,when it will happen and how quick the changing will be.
Paul is saying that when the last trumpet sounds the dead will be raised and we will be changed

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [x]imperishable, and we will be changed.

If you believe the following scripture is the same event then you will have to agree that their is a process.
1 The Lord descends
2 The Dead in Christ rise first
3 The Alive are caught up
The very fact that Paul says "First" and "Then" means that their is an order and that these three things do not happen instantaneously but take at least some time and are step by step.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
King James Version

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

ACTS CLEARLY SHOWS THAT THE ASSENSION TOOK TIME AND THAT CHRIST WOULD COME BACK THE SAME WAY AND IT WILL TAKE TIME AND IS NOT INSTANTANEOUS

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee,” they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

This event described in Corinthians what ever you believe it to be ,which ever timeline you put this scripture in is not instantaneous.One part of it happens instantaneously, in the twinkling of an eye but the rest is visable because it takes time,
urs staff

Both are resserection passages both 1 cor 15 and 1 thess 4

I do not believe in a pre tribulation rapture as I used to go to a church that believed in it

The problem that jesus will be coming 3 times , once to pick up his church and then another time as in the second coming

Sometimes I need ressurecting and we are all sinners saved by grace as I have felt so far from jesus and so under spiritual attack recently

If you understand basically the word rapture literally means rape of the church , as it you look at the word used in any other literature other than the bible that's it's use case

I so wish jesus could ressurect me

Hi Deltadom,
I think that some people think that by disproving the word "rapture" that they disprove that Jesus comes for the Church before the tribulation and vica versa.
Whether Jesus comes before ,during or after the tribulation the word rapture doesnt really matter,its a ressurection .

urs staff

"For I do not wish you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until..." (Rom 11:25a).

Put a circle around the word "until." There is a condition. and here is the point. It is a condition only the Church can meet. The issue of Israel becomes the issue of the Church.

"...until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"(Rom 25a).

When God says 'fullness,' He means the completion of all that He has intended. There is a fullness for which God waits, the "calling out of a people for His name, from among every nation" (Acts 15:14). This has always been the mission mandate of the Church. But according to Paul's letter to the Romans, the greatest incentive that God gives the Church to go into all the world and proclaim the gospel is that,

"...the Deliverer will come from Zion" (Rom 9:26a).

When that mission is completed, something will happen independent of Israel's own spiritual condition. The Deliverer is released in the moment that the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Israel is delivered and the Deliverer takes His throne on the holy hill of Zion and rules over the nations. The world is in a hopeless condition until the Lord Himself comes. Only thereafter can there be a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness.

It is clear that this view opposes the "pre-tribulation" rapture mentality, a mentality that sees the Church as being removed before the tribulation. It is a widely accepted doctrine, but to challenge it is to be looked upon as challenging some sacrosanct foundational doctrine of the faith. It is as if you are introducing heresy, when it is not a doctrine of the faith at all. Nothing, in our opinion, has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship, maturity and of being the Church that can stand in the Last Days and overcome tribulation, than the misguided confidence that they will not have to face it!

It is because of this "pre-tribulation" rapture expectation that the Church is presently operating now toward Israel out of guilt in that the Church is removed while the Jew remains to face the music. Anything that issues from the Church that has an ulterior motive, that relieves our conscience, where we operate out of guilt rather than from a priestly place, is not a valid place of ministry. Only priestly ministry is valid. The heart of priestly ministry is that the priest derives no advantage or benefit for himself in his priestly ministration. However, if you are operating out of guilt and a bad conscience, than you are alleviating something for yourself by being condescending to Jews. A lot of the attitudes of the churches toward present Israel are of this condescending kind.

If we, as the Church, elevate and exalt ourselves as something separate, independent or superior to the Jew, then, by that one thing, we are no longer the Church. The Church loses its character when it loses its essential humility. The Church needs to be reminded that we are grafted into THEIR root and that we are made, by the gospel, partakers WITH them. The Church is not some phenomenon independent of Israel; it is the graciousness of God to allow Gentiles to come into THEIR promise, into THEIR hope and into THEIR expectation, which they themselves have lost by default and no longer know. Part of our task is to remind Israel, not verbally, but by being a demonstration of what it means to have been invited into the 'commonwealth of Israel' (Ephe 2:12).

(From "True Fellowship: To Him Be Glory In The Church" - ch 3 -"The Church and the Jew" - p53-55 - by Art Katz - Burning Bush Press - copyright 2003)

Hi docs,

While I enjoy hearing or reading many of the messages from Art Katz, I strongly disagree with his assessment of what and why many believers (perhaps even most) embrace the idea of a gathering of the Bride of Christ before the period when God's wrath is poured out upon the entire earth.

While Dominic might not like the word "rapture" because of much-later connotations associated with it, I prefer describing it as a "gathering" of the Bride of Christ. This is to assumed to take place not before mere "tribulation" -- because we should understand that we will ALWAYS face tribulation in this world -- but THE tribulation of those days (i.e., when the wrath of God is poured out upon the earth).

Again, there is a strong distinction between earthly tribulation that believers face on this planet -- and which they have faced since the beginning of the church -- and that period interpreted to be the "Great Tribulation" in which God's wrath is poured out in judgment.

Those who believe in it (or, in my case, lean toward it as a very strong or even reasonably possible event) do not do so for reasons (as Art Katz described) of "guilt" toward Israel or even ulterior motives (such as "easy believism"). Nor do they believe in a "rapture" (again, I prefer "gathering together of the Bride") to avoid the need " (according to Katz) for preparation, discipleship, maturity or of being the Church that can stand in the Last Days and overcome tribulation."

Over the roughly two decades that I've been on SermonIndex, we have seen this topic debated (often fiercely) to the point of exhaustion. I've engaged in some of those debates too. More often than not, I've read through the posts and prayerfully continued studying this matter. After all, it's certainly an important topic.

Yet, after immense amounts of prayer and prayerful study, I've still maintained a very similar stance on the topic. While I am aware of many different views on the matter, I still see a strong possibility for a "gathering" of the Bride of Christ before God's wrath is poured out upon the entire earth.

Now, I am not saying that I have reached an ultimate conclusion in this matter. I simply see it as a very strong possibility -- and one that I can see via the Scriptures. Moreover, this is not because I "want" to believe in it either. I simply want to know the truth of God's Word and not the teachings or traditions of man.

I've always held that we should be aware of ALL possible scenarios in which the end will come. I also think that faithful teachers of God's Word can cover them too -- without necessarily proclaiming a very specific absolute in regard to the timing and manner of the Lord's return.

By covering all possible scenarios (or even our own lack of an ultimate conclusion on the matter), it reminds the church to BE READY. We should be prepared for the end NO MATTER HOW the end comes. This includes being prepared for persecutions and tribulations. This includes being prepared for the period of Great Tribulation (i.e., God's wrath). This also includes living as a Bride who has made herself ready (no matter how or when we are gathered to the Bridegroom).

I've known believers who argued this to the point of ad nauseam. Yet, some of those believers have since passed away from this earthly life. Despite a strong belief in the imminent return (and even a few that thought we were currently in the "seven year tribulation" more than a decade ago), they breathed their last breath on this side of the glass darkly without seeing how it would all come to pass. I suppose that it is death that most of human history will see rather than living on the earth during the final moments of the last days.

For me, it is not necessary to figure it all out anyway. I keep realizing that my focus should be on HIM. I need to continue seeking his face through his Word, prayer, fasting, etc. I may never know with absolute certainty the end of this great mystery and how it will come about (in terms of timing and specificities). Yet, I can spend my life for him. I can still try to spread the Good News so that others are ready to meet him at any time.

Over the last year or two, I've been struck by how so many Jews misunderstood how our Messiah would come. It seems that many read from the Scriptures of a coming King who would rule from Jerusalem that they missed the passages about a humble servant -- God incarnate -- born of a virgin and placed in a manger. He would live on this world and then suffer at the hands of sinners.

Even the apostles (prior to the crucifixion) were a bit confused about all of this. When the Gospels tell of Jesus mentioning his death, we would read of their confusion about it. I've thought that even some of them were likely expecting Jesus to become a conquering king during his time on earth (before the crucifixion).

In fact, one of the things that they asked Jesus after his resurrection (in Acts 1:6) was, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" Notice that they were focused on the many prophecies in which the Messiah would RESTORE THE KINGDOM of Israel. And how did Jesus respond? "He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority" (Acts 1:7). He then refocused them on what mattered now -- waiting in Jerusalem for the promise of the Father (that is, the Holy Spirit) and being his witnesses.

I point this out to remind one another that the Jews had access to the Old Covenant Scriptures for hundreds of years following the end of the captivity. They were waiting for the coming of the Messiah. Some groups (like the Essenes and probably the Magi) even expected his arrival based upon the timetable mentioned in the Book of Daniel. Yet, most people weren't expecting Jesus. They were waiting for the Messiah of the Millennial Reign. They weren't expecting the Messiah to become a sacrificial Lamb.

In fact, this is likely why Jesus said, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”) in Matthew 27:46. There, as he was dying on the cross, he quoted Psalm 22 (before it was actually numerically notated as "Psalm 22"). He quoted the first verse of that Psalm -- the one that so clearly prophecied of the suffering and death of the Messiah. Even then, most standing near him didn't understand why he said this (and some even mocked him).

My point is that I don't want to be the person who holds assumptions -- even Scriptural and/or widely held assumptions -- that might prohibit me from considering each possible scenario for the Lord's return. So, I'll continue to study. Yet, I won't let that study interfere with what is vastly more important.

Obviously, we must be ready. But, I don't think that being "ready" means that we will know with absolutely certainty the exact manner and timing of the Lord's return. All that is necessary of me is to be ready no matter how it comes. I should just as ready to lay down my life for him as I should be ready to depart this world at any minute.

"Therefore you also must BE READY, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
- Matthew 24:44

It is not the much later connatations with the word rapture as it was a word used by John Nelson Darby

Art Katz from what I have listened to his sermons didn't believe in a pre tribulation resserection

It would be an entirely different post dealing with the dead sea Scrolls and how closely they got the idea of the Messiah jesus from the first temple period

With current Jews tending towards things like Maimonides as there gold standard and even things like Kabbalah which completely does away with the creation story of genesis

I have associated the wrath of God as hell and eternal torment as there is quite a few different greek words for things like persecution and tribulation

We should be expecting to see the antichrist before Jesus Christ as in 2 thess 2
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

I was expecting people to be shocked at the use of the word rapture in other literature.

It seems that we have so many heresies today , we don't tend to be shocked anymore

If you read the dead sea Scrolls you understand that they got so many things wrong due with the first coming of Christ and the nature of deception

I think it was the danger of half truths is that you do not know what you are going to get

We live in a world where we have been told that the mark of the beast is this or the mark of the beast is that

That when the thing actually turns up , people because they have been lied to so many times

We have bible prophecies that are vaguely similar to the bible but actually do not involve the actual Bible

It is like fake cheese or fake counterfeit money , we have fake bible prophecy that looks so similar but is vastly different to what the actual Bible actually says

A sign a few degrees of can end you up in another country or a space rocket that is a few degrees of will end up in a failed mission

I for one and one who needs getting back on tract and like Christian in pilgrim's progress who went of the path and ended up in giant despairs castle

We all need to check out every sign

In the silver chair Jill is given signs to follow by aslan and messes up every single sign until the last one

It is hard to know a genuine sign from a fake one

As even during the time of jesus first coming there was so many false messiahs that when the true one came

They were so sick of hearing and skeptical it is the same with jesus second coming

Hi Deltadom,
I think that some people think that by disproving the word "rapture" that they disprove that Jesus comes for the Church before the tribulation and vica versa.
Whether Jesus comes before ,during or after the tribulation the word rapture doesnt really matter,its a ressurection .

______________________

The thing is what people assume is that the word rapture comes from the Latin vulgate and I disproved that with an actual quote from the latin vulgate rather and I bothered to look into the word and where it comes from

Then I looked into other uses of that word

If the church is smart we should ban that word rapture from the vocabulary of the church completely

It makes a difference as if we are looking for Jesus Christ and get the antichrist that is a big difference
If we are always expecting to be dragged out of a world in which we expect tribulation

The early church was born through tribulation and infor one cant handle any tribulation
The early church understandong of the tribulation was to purify the church

We have been lied to on so many issues

Staff what I am trying to get an understanding of what most people think the bible says versus what the bible actually says and the chasm is large

Hi Deltadom,
I admire your wanting to get the proper meaning of the word and I get word may not be scriptural to use.
However when I use it people know exactly the event Im talking about.
Bear in mind it describes the event whether its pre ,mid or post tributlation not just a description of the pre tribulation departure.

In part I have a problem with the post tribulation view that doesnt distinguish between tribulation and the time period "the great tribulation" as in your qoute below.
Again great preachers like Corrie Ten Boon and Billy Graham have had different and opposite experiences when it came to trials and tribulation in their lives.It doeant negate the doctrine of tribulation.

qoute :in which we expect tribulation

The early church was born through tribulation and infor one cant handle any tribulation
The early church understandong of the tribulation was to purify the church

urs staff

Hi staff
I believe in a great tribulation but the actual verses that mention it

Matthew 24:21 N-NFS
GRK: γὰρ τότε θλίψις μεγάλη οἵα
NAS: there will be a great tribulation, such
KJV: great tribulation, such as
INT: indeed then tribulation great such as

Acts 7:11 N-NFS
GRK: Χαναὰν καὶ θλίψις μεγάλη καὶ
NAS: and great affliction [with it], and our fathers
KJV: and great affliction: and our
INT: Canaan and tribulation great and

Revelation 2:22 N-AFS
GRK: αὐτῆς εἰς θλίψιν μεγάλην ἐὰν
NAS: with her into great tribulation, unless
KJV: great tribulation, except
INT: her into tribulation great if

Revelation 7:14 N-GFS
GRK: ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης
NAS: out of the great tribulation, and they have washed
KJV: great tribulation, and
INT: out of the tribulation great

https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_2347.htm

There is evidence of great tribulation in scripture 🙂

The problem that I have when we are talking about jesus return in scripture as you have 2 thess 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, note

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

This passage directly goes against the pre trib rapture idea

2 thess 2
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

This shows that when jesus returns he is destroying the antichrist

My problem is it actually detracts from the Jewish idea of the resserection at the last day

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. View more

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. View more

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day

The bible in the book of revelation talks about 2 resserections and the passages of 1 thess 4 and 1 cor 15

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

I want to be part of the first ressurection not the second one

By disassociating the word rapture with the word resserection you do not put it in a larger context of scripture

If you have ever watched the film risen and understand that when jesus died he was a dying corpse and that when jesus rose and the disciples looked into the eyes of one who risen from the dead , I pray that I can look into the eyes of one who has risen from the dead

I worked in a hospital and saw people die in ICU and delivering food to them , noone thought they would be there. There was people from 22 to 92.

Death is a sure thing and being resserected as even in 1 thess 4

It actually remembers jesus resserection as 1 thess 4 is a resserection passage like 1 cor 15

1 thess 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

It is not a hidden doctrine that Paul knew as a hidden doctrine is occultism and the apostles knew about the fact

There was the early church fathers and they didn't write about the pre trib rapture in the creeds as the idea was foreign to them

Nicene creed

And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver-of-Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. And [we believe] in one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, [and] we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen

No reference to the pre trib rapture

The Apostles' Creed

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

Why didn't the apostles or the early church fathers hear about it

Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (Didache - Chapter 16)

Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;" (First Apology of Justin, Chapter 110)

Irenaeus (AD 140-202) "he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." (Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1)

Tertullian (AD 150-220) "that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, Revelation xviii and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 25)

Hippolytus (AD 160-240) "That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains," (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

Cyprian (AD 200-258) "For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle ... "The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service…" Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times," (Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2)
Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. (Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722)

Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church." (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3)

Hi Deltadom,
I respect your right for a want of a better word to believe in a post tribulation view.I have looked and studied this alot and I come to the conclusion although I dont have the answer to all of the points made by post tribulation believers neither do they have the answer to points I have made on the topic and I still come down on the side of a pre tribulation gathering or whatever you want to call it.

This point which I have made many times but Chrrriss made on this post is important
qoute :
Again, there is a strong distinction between earthly tribulation that believers face on this planet -- and which they have faced since the beginning of the church -- and that period interpreted to be the "Great Tribulation" in which God's wrath is poured out in judgment.

Post tribulation believers never get this correct and rely on it to make an untrue assumption about believers who believe in the Pre Trib view,the assumption is that we want to avoid tribulation and want a soft way out.
I would think its fair for me to assume also that this mistake in lumping tribulation as being the same as the period time The Great Tribulation is deliberate by some but either way its not a scriptural nor fair debate point.

Almost all of the Christians I know are pre trib believers but all love the Lord greatly as much as post trib believers and all know by experience that we go through tribulation in our lives ,urs staff

Hi staff do you have some scripture passages or some greek to back up what you say as I used to believe in a pre tribulation rapture

Again, there is a strong distinction between earthly tribulation that believers face on this planet -- and which they have faced since the beginning of the church -- and that period interpreted to be the "Great Tribulation" in which God's wrath is poured out in judgment

θλῖψις thlipses is the word for tribulation in Greek
https://biblehub.com/greek/2347.htm

Wrath ὀργή
https://biblehub.com/greek/3709.htm

Staff can you better explain your defeater argument
As you have other Greek words for persecution as

διώκω
https://biblehub.com/greek/1377.htm

Hi Deltadom,
Jesus gives two examples about his coming.The days of Noah and the days of Lot.
Point 1
From this passage we can see that Jesus is talking about the "days" that just preceed his coming.He gives two examples of what the "days" will be like just before he comes.
In both examples we see that the world was similar to what it is today ,people are marrying(not Lot) ,drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.They werent after going through a period of time called the Great Tribulation nor were they after going through a time of "God's Wrath" poured out.
Point 2
In both examples they were people who were scoffing at the very idea of Judgement and if they had just gone through the Great Tribulation they would know exactly what Judgement was like and wouldnt have the attitude they had.
Point 3
In both examples Jesus carefully chose Judgement couldnt happen until the righteous namely Noah and Lot were taken out.In both examples he carefully uses the term "until the day".The moment the righteous were taken out then immediate Judgement.
Point 4
In both examples Lot and Noah went upwards out of the place they were in.Noah's Ark went up and Lot and his family went up out of Sodom indicated the deliverance is above.

Matthew
37As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.…

Luke
27People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. 28It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.…
urs staff

The thing with the two examples it doesnt really represent the pre trib rapture that well as soon as they left everyone was destroyed

αρπαζω occurs 30 times in the OT. ge.37.33 ; le.6.4 ; le.19.13 ; de.28.31 ; 2sa.23.21 ; job.20.19 ; job.24.2 ; job.24.9 ; job.24.19 ; ps.7.2 ; ps.10.9 ; ps.10.9 ; ps.22.13 ; ps.50.22 ; ps.104.21 ; is.10.2 ; eze.18.7 ; eze.18.12 ; eze.18.16 ; eze.18.18 ; eze.19.3 ; eze.19.6 ; eze.22.25 ; eze.22.27 ; ho.5.14 ; am.1.11 ; am.3.4 ; mic.3.2 ; mic.5.8 ; na.2.12 ;

Dickey, Joshua. The Complete Koine-English Reference Bible: New Testament, Septuagint and Strong's Concordance (Kindle Locations 9177-9185). . Kindle Edition.

These are the uses of the words harpizo used in the Old Testament

The problem is with Noah and Lot once they are taken out judgement hits Sodom and a pre- deluge earth
There is no seven year gap and then judgement hits.

In theses two examples the destruction happens straight away and not seven years afterwards
Both Noah and Lot fled and the cities were destroyed straight away

These examples are not good examples of the pre trib rapture

Hi Deltadom,
Jesus is clear ,cyrstal clear with what he says.
Eating ,Drinking,Marrying,Building just prior to Judgement,just prior to when he comes.
Thats what Jesus said and to be extra clear he said it twice,he gave two examples in case people made a mistake.

The point about the seven years not being mentioned is a not a valid arguement.Their are many times that Jesus didnt explain a full doctrine in one passage.I could say the same for the Post Trib ,because Jesus didnt mention a 7 yr tribulation in the passage,then it isnt valid.Good for the goose kinda of thing.

Yes the Judgement will be straight away because Jesus said "until the day" then Judgement.
The Great Tribulation is just the second half of the 7 yr period and when you take that into account it will be straigth away ,Judgement that is.

"Both Noah and Lot fled and the cities were destroyed straight away"
These examples are not good examples of the pre trib rapture

After saying all these things in response to your points I have to say that you didnt respond to the main point which is how in any logic can "days" Jesus is talking about fit into a Post Tribulation time line?

Jesus himself clearly said that everything is going on as normal,the people arent expecting Judgement even though they were warned and when the good guys are taken out then Judgment immediately.

I offer simple logic based on what Jesus said twice.Things are normal just before he comes and Judgement is not expected by those who dont except Jesus,
urs staff

Matt 13
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

Jesus is quite clear with the wheat and the tares passage :)

The tares have to be gathered first and the thing is jesus himself does not mention that he is coming three times he only mentions his second coming not his third coming

It is also hard to get the seven and half years from the bible

Jesus talks about the tares being bundled first before the righteous which is a problem for the pre trib rapture.

The problem with the pre trib rapture there is no clear passage that says seven years before the tribulation the church is raptured as the word raptured is not in the bible.

I know you are going to say the word harpizo is
but jesus

Matthew 25:31
The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

Acts 1
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

MATTHEW 16:27 (Jesus)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

MATTHEW 24:29-31 (Jesus)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

MATTHEW 25:31 (Jesus)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

MARK 8:38 (Jesus)
38 Whoever shall be ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father, with the holy angels.

MARK 13:24-27 (Jesus)
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 Then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

LUKE 9:26 (Jesus)
26 For whoever shall be ashamed of me and my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

1 THESSALONIANS 4:15-18 (Paul)
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain to the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-8 (Paul)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

what scriptures have you got to back up that the great tribulation is 7 years as the bible only mentions that word three times and it does not say that the mega thilipses is seven years , there is no bible verse that says the mega thlipses is 7 years.

Matthew 24:21 N-NFS
GRK: γὰρ τότε θλίψις μεγάλη οἵα
NAS: there will be a great tribulation, such
KJV: great tribulation, such as
INT: indeed then tribulation great such as

Revelation 2:22 N-AFS
GRK: αὐτῆς εἰς θλίψιν μεγάλην ἐὰν
NAS: with her into great tribulation, unless
KJV: great tribulation, except
INT: her into tribulation great if

Revelation 7:14 N-GFS
GRK: ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης
NAS: out of the great tribulation, and they have washed
KJV: great tribulation, and
INT: out of the tribulation great:

The early church wasnt expecting three comings of Jesus , they were only expecting 2 comings of Jesus

in 2 timothy

if you believe that the resseruction is the rapture then this verse is damaging

2 Timothy 2:18
who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

the reason this verse is damaging is that is they were expecting the ressurection and it caused some people to turn from there faith

matt 24
23 "Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 "Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The rapture or resseruction in this passage here as saying that jesus would come in the desert , or the inner room do not believe it not. So basically what jesus is basically saying
So if jesus comes for his church before his second coming it would have to be the antichrist

there is a common saying that is present among pre trib circles which is "we are looking for christ not the antichrist"

The problem is that is you will get the antichrist as in the book of matthew , false christs and false prophets will rise so its those christs you will get and not the real christ as the bible specifally states that jesus christ will destroy the antichrist.

2 thess 2
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

As it talks about Jesus destroying the antichrist clearly in 2 thess 2:8

The thing is there is no clear passage for the pre trib rapture , the early church didnt believe it , Paul or Peter didnt believe it. It wasnt a doctrine that was revealed to Paul secretly like the pre trib people say as that would be an occult doctrine.

The bible is clear :)

Hi Deltadom,
In fairness dont change the subject because this is a stumblingblock to your view.
Eating ,Drinking ,Building,Marrying,Given in Marriage,Planting is clearly not the "Great Tribulation"

The question you have to answer is how can Jesus say everything is normal and people dont think a judgement is coming ever and point it out twice(a witness of two)
just before he comes back ?

If the great tribulation had happened before Jesus's return then people would not be scoffing at the idea of Judgement but would believe it as a reality.
Jesus is plainly saying just before I come back everything is worldy normal and then immediate Judgement.I think it does this particular scripture an injustice to look at it any other way than the way its written,
urs staff

The thing is it is not a clear passage and in the rule of hernanuetics you always look at a clear passage to clear up an unclear passage
The thing is you also have to take passages like Matt 24 when jesus is talking about his return

Jesus does not say I am returning for the church and then I am returning for the third coming

The reason I gave the passage about the wheat and the tares is because God deals with the unrighteousness first

To answer the question about everyone eating and drinking and giving in marriage . That is normal life and in even in war torn situations. Life still has to go on as normal.

The problem is the whole argument is based on conjecture rather than a clear passage

The reason I brought up the other passages is that they directly contradict the idea of a pre tribulation rapture as in 2 thess 2 it talks about jesus destroying the antichrist

Which is in direct opposition to the fact that jesus comes for his church first , then the passage in 1 Thessalonians where jesus is causing judgement on those that do not know the gospel

Even the passage you brought up jesus doesn't come seven years to pick up Noah and lot before Sodom and Gomorrah and the deluge then after the seven years destruction happens

The analogy doesn't help the idea of the pre tribulation rapture as most of what you say is based on conjecture

When jesus himself says false christs and false prophets arise in Matt 24 and do not seek after them as the lightning comes from the east unto the west so shall the sign of the son of man be

This would rule out that the pre trib rapture would be a false Christ as per Matt 24.

As there is only 1 second coming , there is not a third coming.

Hi Deltadom,
Your married to your doctrine so even when a clear passage goes against your belief you wont go against your belief.So even if what your saying about the word "Rapture" is correct you wont go against your wife.

Eating,Drinking,Planting,Building,Marrying,Sowing "until the day"Jesus Comes and then immediate Judgement.Thats Jesus Words not mine.
If you cant accept that as being clear and precise then other people could argue that Jesus didnt really die for our sins and you cant say they are clearly wrong,
urs staff

Staff- your argument is good IF Jesus was not talking about the coming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, which is a mountainous if, because He was.

Hey staff
God bless
This verse does not say this that seven years before the great tribulation

What you have got to understand is this is not a good anology as lot and Noah leave the world and then judgement happens there is no gap

I have given verses that directly go against the pre trib rapture

You may think you are clear and precise , you are not 😊
Jesus dying for our sins

I have multiple verses that can prove that jesus died for my sins

1 Peter 3:18 ESV / 1,262 helpful votes
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

1 Peter 2:24 ESV / 1,127 helpful votes
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Romans 5:8 ESV / 1,096 helpful votes
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:16 ESV / 1,016 helpful votes
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:3 ESV / 1,003 helpful votes
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

Isaiah 53:5 ESV / 946 helpful votes
But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

Romans 3:23 ESV / 864 helpful votes
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

John 19:30 ESV / 860 helpful votes
When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV / 839 helpful votes
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Romans 6:23 ESV / 834 helpful votes
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Isaiah 53:1-12 ESV / 745 helpful votes
Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. ...

Romans 5:10 ESV / 738 helpful votes
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

John 1:29 ESV / 737 helpful votes
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 John 2:2 ESV / 694 helpful votes
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 14:6 ESV / 694 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No

I do not have multiple verse that seven years before the great tribulation that the church is raptured jesus returns for his church in his second coming and then comes back in his third coming to judge the world

I am waiting for a clear passage and you havent given me one

You just quite this passage but this passage

Passage
Resources
Hebrew/Greek
Your Content
Matthew 24
King James Version
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

One was taken for judgement

As both Noah and lot were taken out and the judgement happened
This is not the case as Noah and lot weren't whisked away for seven years and came back, so the shoe doesn't fit the anology doesn't fit the pre tribulation narrative

The problem is I pointed out earlier the verses that directly the pre trib rapture

I use the believe in the pre trib rapture it was the bible that turned me from this view 😊

I am praying that you read your bible , I have no hard feelings as I used to believe in this view until I read my bible

There are no three comings of jesus, there is just 2

God bless

Staff

Hi Delta,
I admire your interest in the end time Chronology and you may be totally correct about the word rapture.
You asked me to give you scriptures and I did but you didnt respond to my scriptural points.

I dealt with the 7 yr issue you have already.
Your Quote
"What you have got to understand is this is not a good anology as lot and Noah leave the world and then judgement happens there is no gap "

I Agree their is no gap.The 7 yrs are split into two 3 1/2 yrs sections.Their is no Judgement in the first 3 1/2 years ,Judgement only begins immediately after the end of the first 3 1/2 yrs and it is immediate

So we are both agreed that Judgement is immediate as far as I can see and that Jesus is saying that its immediate.

The remaining points are that Jesus highlights what the days are like just before he comes.

I am saying that Jesus is saying the days are normal in a worldly sense just prior to the coming of the Son Of Man.
Whereas if they had gone through the Tribulation things would not be normal.

And the attitude of the people Just before he comes as described in the Noah and Lot passages.

I am saying that these people in the examples dont expect Judgement to come whereas if they had already gone through the Tribulation they would know that Judgement is a possibility and would take it seriously.

urs staff

I decided to look in on sermonindex.

wow...been a long time but I too use to discuss this topic.

Brethren as I looked at this topic and read a little I sensed the Lord's presence. A thought dropped into my spirit.

There is going to be a Wedding before Christ comes back to earth!

[Rev 19:7-10 KJV] 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The church is not appointed to wrath! The bride of Christ will join Christ at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Blessed are they who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. His wife hath made herself ready and to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Then Jesus comes back...

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Look who is following Him...clothed in fine line, white and clean!

Praise God!

Hi Rbanks,
I love a good wedding!
blessing all

It would be interesting if you read the passage about the wedding as it happens at after jesus returns

Rev 19
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great

The interesting thing is the timing of the marriage supper of the lamb is at jesus second coming and not the rapture and in rev 19:9 it is the supper of the lamb and in verse 17

Verse 17 is interesting as it talks about the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven gather yourself for the marriage supper of the lamb

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great

I would associate wrath with hell rather than with

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

I would associate wrath with hell as 1 thess 5:9 that we have not be appointed to wrath but to salvation and I would say wrath. As salvation is to do being saved from our sins

The thing it is almost like a mantra in the pre trib movement but if you look at the Greek word ὀργή
https://biblehub.com/greek/3709.htm

But nowhere in scripture does it equate ὀργή with tribulation or the Greek word thlipses θλῖψις
https://biblehub.com/greek/2347.htm

God bless 🙂
Dominic

________----------

I" Agree their is no gap.The 7 yrs are split into two 3 1/2 yrs sections.Their is no Judgement in the first 3 1/2 years ,Judgement only begins immediately after the end of the first 3 1/2 yrs and it is immediate"

What biblically starts the tribulation and how do you know you are even in it
What biblical grounding do you have for the seven years

Brother, the marriage supper cannot be the same as the supper of the great God.

They are different. One is the union of Christ and the church/bride and the other is a vengeance supper on those who rejected God’s Son.

Also God is not going to pour out any of His wrath on His Son’s bride: Just not going to happen.

Blessings

That's the bible either what is says is true or not

As we could also say the same things about hell and other things we don't like in scripture

No…I just think it’s your interpretation of the Bible!

Anyway brother happy learning!

Lord help us to win many souls to Christ before it is eternally too late!

And Lord whenever you want to call me up and whenever you’ve decided to come back is fine with me!

Also, help me Lord to stay faithful to you, no matter what! I will always need your love, mercy and grace to stay in the race until I see your Face!

Blessings and love to Everyone!

What biblically starts the tribulation and how do you know you are even in it

Rev 11:3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

and verse 7 "And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them..."

And the last 3 1/2 years starts with the 1st beast:
Rev 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.

The 2nd beast is where the mark of beast is instituted:
Rev 13:16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.

///////////////////////////////////

Rbanks!!! It's so good to hear from you again!!

Have you ever read Foxes Book of Martyrs? Or the Martyrs Mirror? I have read them and to me seeing what the martyrs (early and current), went through and how they were literally tortured to death and slain for the gospel of Jesus Christ proves to me that the saints that will be here (both Jews and Christians) will experience man's wrath (which is not God's wrath).

Here's a great video explaining that:

Will Jesus Beat up His Bride Before the Wedding
/ THE RAPTURE & ENDURANCE OF THE SAINTS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32FNOhVVgKY&pp=ygUmR29kJ3MgYnJpZGUgYmUgYmVhdCB1cCBKb2VsIFJpY2hhcmRzb24%3D

God bless us all as we work our way through all of this!!
Lisa

Thanks sister Lisa! Blessings to you!!

Yes, good point…we experience man’s wrath caused by Satan but not God’s Wrath!

I tried to listen to that video. After about 15 minutes I felt like I was wasting time. I didn’t like what those preachers said…neither did I like the way he was talking and explaining. I would want to talk like any of that.

I’ve only said that God is not going to pour out His wrath on the bride because we are not appointed to wrath. I realize we will have to suffer for Christ. Jesus told us to deny ourselves and to take up our cross to follow Him.

You know…I just believe the being caught up (rapture) is the hope the Christian looks forward to…in meeting the Lord in the air!

The tribulation saints….God is not angry with them. They will be saved if they are faithful.

The many scriptures that warns us to be ready is so important!!!

Luke 21:36 (KJV) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Matthew 24:42 (KJV)
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 25:13 (KJV)
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Luke 20:35 (KJV)
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Revelation 3:10 (KJV) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1 John 3:2-3 (KJV) 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Colossians 3:1-4 (KJV) 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Hebrews 9:27-28 (KJV) 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

It just appears to be 2 stages of His coming because the being caught up (Rapture) is what we as Christians are told to look forward to and be comforted with meeting the Lord in the air….dead in Christ will be caught up and also those still living in Christ will be changed and caught up.

We also must know that the dead in Christ who are caught up in the rapture where looking for the Lord’s appearing. Many of them…we know didn’t go through the great tribulation….because they died before the 7 year tribulation even began as many have already gone to the grave waiting for the coming of the Lord.

So we know for sure that many dead in Christ will be raptured up to meet the Lord in the air and they never had to go through any of the 7 years or Great Tribulation!

I believe that if we are living holy before the Lord then we will have to go through persecution and some maybe great but we can look forward to meeting our Lord in the air. I believe we need to be ready and faithful to meet out Lord!

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
"A Thief in the Night”
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Notice sudden destruction is upon them! Also….

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Notice wake or sleep…(means dead in Christ or alive and remain)
Notice we should live together with Him ( goes along with what was said earlier about being caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Then wherefore comfort one another with these words)

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Wow…it’s amazing how 1 Thess 5:9-11 parallels with 1 Thess 4:16-18.

Blessings and Love to Everyone!

Is it possible that the final judgment wrath of God ("ogre”) has nothing to do with what occurs in Revelation in the destruction of the world ? Suppose final judgment wrath is in the eternal destruction and eternal torment of those in the lake of fire. Would this view reconcile the camps ? Probably not but it should.

Revelation 6:17 (KJV) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 11:18 (KJV)
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 19:15 (KJV)
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

I'm old school!! If I had never been taught pre-trib by my pastor when I got saved, would I have believed in a pre-trib rapture? I don't think so! My opinion is that I don't believe the Bible teaches a pre-trib rapture but your opinion may be different! Ask yourself and God, "who told me about pre-trib did I read about it? etc"

There are more verses for resurrections than there are for TWO churches and here the verses that mention 2 resurrections:

John 5:28, 29 Do not be amazed at this because a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and will come out ”” the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation.

Luke 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee; for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Acts 24:15 I have a hope in God (a hope that these men themselves accept too) that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Acts 17:31 because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Revelation 20:4-5 Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

John 5:24 I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.

1 Thessalonians :16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the first fruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven””and we also eagerly await a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform these humble bodies of ours into the likeness of his glorious body by means of that power by which he is able to subject all things to himself.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened””the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.

God bless us as we wait actively for His return!!
Lisa

Robert,

I definitely know that the end times wrath seen in the destruction of the world is wrath as clearly stated in the verses you site, and others. I'm suggesting that final judgment wrath is not that and is subsequent. Revelation speaks of a great white thrown judgement that comes after the destruction of the creation and then a second death and then the fiery wrath of God poured out through in the Lake of Fire.
It is this wrath that the people of God will not suffer, clearly. Thus, 2 Thessalonians can and probably should be so interpreted which is an essential passage to pre trib argument. Thus, the argument shifts from "pre-trib" to pre final judgment" which is actually the wording of the Epistle.

Brother and sister, I just know this one thing that we are to look or eagerly wait for His return. No one knows the day nor the hour but we are to watch and be ready. If we are not ready and eagerly waiting then we are going to miss out…

According to the Bible the wife has made herself ready…blessed are they who are called to the marriage supper. They will not experience any part of,God’s wrath.

Considering how long it has been, we will probably all be dead in Christ before the great tribulation takes place but we still suppose to be early waiting for His return.

We don’t none know what we will have to go through in this life before Christ returns but those who are truly looking for Him with a hope to be like Him will be pure as he is pure.

I am not dogmatic about the pretrib…because the truth is that it is not for us to know when Christ shall return. It shouldn’t really matter to us as much as the fact that we want to be ready and desire for Him to Return to receive us unto Himself.

We are told to let no man deceive us. There will be false prophets. We are told not to go look for him here and there because He lives within us and we will know. We will be drawn to Him in the air by the Holy Spirit within us.

A Christian can believe in Post trib or any kind but I would be careful not to let any belief that would cause us to think that the Lord’s return is 7 years down the road after the great tribulation because that is not what he said. He said to watch and be ready….

Blessings and love to Everyone!

Matthew 24:42-44 (KJV) 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:36-38 (KJV)
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Notice Jesus said as the days of Noah…so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Before the flood they were eating and drinking also marrying. No sign of anything to tell them otherwise. They heard Noah preach and build the Ark but didn’t believe it was going to rain. They knew not until the flood came and took them all away but Noah was safe inside the Ark and felt no harm of the flood. God shut him in the Ark and no one could get to Him.

We are told to watch and be ready. The coming of the Lord will be just like Noah’s day. Noah got inside the Ark before it ever rained, way before the flood that destroyed the earth and all those outside the Ark.

It seems that noone has actual Bible verses to prove what they say

2 thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: note

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

In the bible look at the word wrath as it does not say god's wrath or man's wrath thats an interpretation of scripture that is put on the scriptures

Everyone know 1 thess 4 but not
1 thess 3 or even 2 or 1

1 thess 3
4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

6 But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:

7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:

8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 1
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. note

5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come

When you look at the context of wrath yet to come to me that would be more hell than it would be the tribulation

In 1 Thessalonians it says they received the word in much affliction

1 Thessalonians 3
1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;

2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. note

4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

In 1 Thessalonians 3 it says we should suffer tribulation

It is right we should be looking for Jesus but the simple fact is according to the bible the antichrist comes first as in 2 thess 2

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

The bible states clearly that the antichrist must be destroyed before jesus returns

yes...love the scriptures deltadom

praying that the Lord bless you and fill you with the Holy Spirit

I just believe their will be a meeting in the Air not exactly sure when but just told to be ready!

[1Th 4:14-18 KJV] 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I also believe that Jesus will return to Earth and destroy all evil...

[2Th 1:7-12 KJV] 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power: 12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessings

1 thess 3
4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Paul has told us that we must all suffer and go through tribulation. Paul said even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Tribulation that we all go through is not the same as the Great Tribulation that is yet to come to try the whole earth.

But we still don't know when Christ will receive us unto himself or when He comes back to earth. Only the Father knows...we just need to be ready whether it is pre, mid, or post trib...so we need to be saved and filled with the Holy Spirit. We will not be ready or able to endure until the end without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Lord, we need you! Lord, fill us all with your Holy Spirit. According to the scriptures, if any man think he knoweth anything, he knows nothing yet that He ought to know.

Lord I don't know when but I know that according to your Word you will descend from heaven with a shout...and whether I'm dead or alive in Christ...will be caught up to meet you in the Air to evermore be with You!

Help me to be ready and win as many souls as possible before it is too late!

Blessings to Everyone!

Tribulation that we all go through is not the same as the Great Tribulation that is yet to come to try the whole earth.

Have you got evidence from the scriptures to prove that
:)

If you noticed in my previous post I posted all scriptural references to the great tribulation in scripture as the greek

Matthew 24:21 N-NFS
GRK: γὰρ τότε θλίψις μεγάλη οἵα
NAS: there will be a great tribulation, such
KJV: great tribulation, such as
INT: indeed then tribulation great such as

Acts 7:11 N-NFS
GRK: Χαναὰν καὶ θλίψις μεγάλη καὶ
NAS: and great affliction [with it], and our fathers
KJV: and great affliction: and our
INT: Canaan and tribulation great and

Revelation 2:22 N-AFS
GRK: αὐτῆς εἰς θλίψιν μεγάλην ἐὰν
NAS: with her into great tribulation, unless
KJV: great tribulation, except
INT: her into tribulation great if

Revelation 7:14 N-GFS
GRK: ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης
NAS: out of the great tribulation, and they have washed
KJV: great tribulation, and
INT: out of the tribulation great

Blessing to you 2 :)

We need the holy spirit and I need the holy spirt , I am a mess and I need Jesus

I pray the Lord’s blessings…

Brother we need to build up our relationship with God which is most important. So much more important than our understanding of the end times. It shouldn’t matter how or when as much as our having a close relationship with the Lord.

Jude 1:20-21 (KJV) 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Colossians 2:7 (KJV)
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Ephesians 3:16-19 (KJV) 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Jude 1:24 (KJV) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Ephesians 5:18-20 (KJV) 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Blessings in Christ Love!

Dom, the 4th century Latin Vulgate translation by Jerome is full of errors. It is much better to read from the original Greek New Testament.

As for tribulation not being the same as the Great Tribulation, and easy to prove from the Scriptures? Jesus told His disciples in John 16:33b, "In the world ye shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." Those disciples were all martyred except for John who died of old age. None of them went through the Great Tribulation which is forthcoming.

If you could ask the underground church in North Korea about this their eldest members would tell you that they have been through over SEVENTY years of tribulation there. These suffering saints doubtless view western Christians as too soft, and ready to fold up when the slightest persecution comes. Chinese believers also pray for the church in the West which is inundated with (and weakened by) material abundance and entertainments.

I used to hold to a pre-Trib rapture view. The only shred of that left for me is that our Lord Jesus can come at an hour we do not expect, and as a thief in the night. When I read Revelation, though, I believe it occurs between the sixth and seventh seal, and that the bowls and trumpets are simultaneous events, the wrath of God poured out during the latter 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

If all the fearful talk about A I in the secular community is legitimate, then we may be seeing the instrument being put in place that will allow the image of the Beast to speak, and to kill those who do not worship it. Scientists seem to fear "singularity," a state wherein A I has assimilated and surpassed all expertise of all of the world's finest minds. In classified government research it may already be there.

I believe in a post trib view
The reason I originally bought up the Latin vulgate was to show that the word rapture is not in the actual text and is not an anglacised version is used in the text

I do tend to quote from the Greek new testament which could almost be another post in itself 😊

It has been my previous point like you said there are many countries like Pakistan going through persecution at this time

As I have always wondered how on earth are you going to know that you have entered into the great tribulation as there is not going to be some neon sign

With ai i am from a computer science background as you have general machine learning or ai and specific AI as AI works on neural network which means that like your brain
When I did my computer degree there was something called the anti Turing test which means could a computer fool a human

So there was bots like jabberwocky and others.

I don't think rev 13 is talking about AI as In the passage the false prophet causes fire to come down from heaven which means that it is supernatural not natural

This is the problem today we have many counterfeit.marks of the beasts or images of the beast so when the event truly happens we will be decieved as in like the dwarfs in the last battle of the chronicles of Narnia they had seen so many fake aslans that when the real aslan turned up they did not believe him

Rev 13
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed

I am thankful for everyone's interaction 😊

*IF* there are 3 1/2 years of tribulation, as described with the opening of the first six seals of Revelation, followed by a rapture of the saints, then a false world peace set up by the Antichrist who is rejected by the Jews once he sits in the temple, claiming to be God, that will be your "neon sign" saying you have now entered the remaining 3 1/2 years of Great Tribulation.

That wasn't my question , my question was how do you know you are entering the beginning of the seven year tribulation

As living in an event if you were to tell someone about artificial intelligence to someone from 1990 as you have the added benefit of hindsight

The bible in Daniel does not specifically say world peace
Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

With the six seals

Revelation 6
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

What would be the news story and how would it actually get fuffilled practically

We have sign that are ethereal we struggle with the same problem that the dead sea Scrolls writers suffered as when we experience a sign it is completely different

What exact event starts the great tribulation as what war when it says to conquer and to conquer in the future

Good question, Dom. If the man on the white horse signifies the Antichrist coming to world power with the opening of the first seal, that would be a good indicator that the initial 3 1/2 years of tribulation has begun.

There are those who feel that Ezekiel's war is not the battle of Armageddon, but an attack upon Israel by Russia, Turkey, Iran, and others - a battle that must take place first, and one that they will lose. In recent years we have seen an accord signed by these aforementioned nations, so the stage is set.

How would you even know it is the antichrist as there has been many wars
You know the antichrist has to come from ten kingdoms

REV. 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.

Daniel 11 details some of the wars of the antichrist
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. note note

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. note note

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

The problem is with things like peace treaties the reason I don't think it is a peace treaty more the building of the third temple

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process?wprov=sfla1

As was it the Oslo accords or the abrahamic treaties
Or the trump plan or the Munich agreement
And you can view all the other peace treaties

As I don't reckon it has happened yet as I think the antichrist when he is going to confirm the covenant, he is going to reconfirm the mosaic covenant and bring in sacrifices
As it says in the verse sacrifice and oblation shall cease and it can only happen in a third temple

Daniel 9:

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

This is why it is hard as the only real hard evidence that you will know that the antichrist is the antichrist when he sits in the temple or the apostasy of the church

Won’t he have seven heads? Rev 13:1. Hard to miss that.

I think that is symbolic :)
If the antichrist did have seven heads I think you would be able to spot him a mile off

All I'm saying, Dom, is that anyone in this present age who comes to power and starts annexing other nations will raise suspicion. There were many during WWII who were convinced Hitler was the Antichrist. In hindsight they were wrong, of course.

I agree with you , that's why we have to be very careful with bible prophecy as it is interesting to look at the dead sea Scrolls and how much they got wrong about jesus first coming

If we can't learn from the past and we need the holy spirit to guide us , there is so much bible prophecy around that doesn't actually use the bible rather it basis is conjecture on what someone thinks the bible says rather than what it actually says or they use there ministry for money making

There is also the other aspect when people deny the supernatural in the recent case of people thinking AI is to do with

Rev 13
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed

As a supernatural explanation of the image of the beast would be a better explanation rather than something like AI

Then we would be no better than atheists when looking at bible prophecy to rule out the supernatural such as the demonic

//I think that is symbolic :)
If the antichrist did have seven heads I think you would be able to spot him a mile off//

"One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.”

Do you think this part is symbolic as well?

I’ll admit that my post about the 7 headed Godzilla monster was tongue in cheek but your response sort of makes my point. I mean where do you draw the line when it comes to "symbolicness?”

I’ve been following this conversation which is rather amusing but I do appreciate y’all’s efforts to force twist and bend scripture.

The truth of the matter is that Revelation snd the latter parts of Daniel are so very symbolic that you really can’t make such specific assertions.

I suspect that John’s *direct audience* may have had insight into his language because perhaps they had heard him speak about some of it in private. He was obviously not willing, for his purposes and God’s, to not state plainly what he was talking about. Remember, it was originally written to real people undergoing severe persecution.

We are too far removed now to have any idea what it really means.

The best we can do is to follow Jesus’s admonition to stay alert.

With the whole aspect of symbolism it normally makes an indirect reference to an old testament passage

The book of revelation was written in the isle of Patmos when John was sent there to die

I think the holy spirit can give us understanding of the text but we also have got to realise it is written in Greek and not English and Greek is a such more expressive language

I think the book of revelation should be understandable to a child aswell as an adult

I do think in some places in the church typology is taken to far where you miss the actual biblical history but that is different from symbolgy where it corresponds directly one to one to an old testament passage

[quote ChrisA
*IF* there are 3 1/2 years of tribulation, as described with the opening of the first six seals of Revelation, followed by a rapture of the saints, then a false world peace set up by the Antichrist who is rejected by the Jews once he sits in the temple, claiming to be God, that will be your "neon sign" saying you have now entered the remaining 3 1/2 years of Great Tribulation.
Actually, another neon sign is the Two Witnesses.

3 1/2 years the two witnesses prophesy Rev 11
3 1/2 years the antichrist

That is the 7 years of tribulation. Somehow all the other things fall into these 7 years, if that doesn't blow your mind!! It's not a cut and dried as we seem to think it is.

God bless,
Lisa

The interesting thing with the two witnesses they are at the end of the sixth trumpet in revelation 11:15 you have the seventh trumpet , the two witnesses are still part of the sixth trumpet with the three woes as the sixth angel sounds in revelation 9:13

I believe the seventh trumpet is when the resserection happens as it states the kingdom of God shall become the kingdom of God shall becomes the kingdom of man

The interesting thing is the locust plagues is like 6 months so that doesn't even add up to 5 months

9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months and if you add the 2 witnesses at the end of the sixth trumpet we have a maths problem 😊

Revelation 9
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. note

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Revelation 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. note

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. note (Compare)

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. note

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. note

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The interesting thing with the two witnesses they are at the end of the sixth trumpet in revelation 11:15 you have the seventh trumpet , the two witnesses are still part of the sixth trumpet with the three woes as the sixth angel sounds in revelation 9:13

1. So are you saying that the tribulation begins 5 trumpets BEFORE the two witnesses begin prophesying for 3 and a half years? Definitely a big math problem!!

Revelation 9:5 - "They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man."

Revelation 9:10 - "They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months."

Revelation 11:2-3 - "But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.

So if you work it out the maths from scripture you have 5 months at the fifth trumpet then 3 and a half years with the two witnesses it does not say how long the previous trumpets are
The bible does not say this is the length of the great tribulation as there is no verse that says how long it does not say and I do not want to say something that the bible does not say
So I can't say how long the 7 trumpets will take as the bible does not say

This is what is so dangerous about eschatology timelines as it actually needs the biblical evidence rather than conjecture

This may be an interesting question but how would you know whilst on earth when any of the trumpets , seals or bowls take place