Why God never predestined me to be a Calvinist

I am struggling at the moment as some people I know have turned Calvinist
I have studied tulip and I don't understand why you even need the gospel if you are part of the elect

I know I am a sinner a wretched one and the thing is if you believe in predestination you have to believe that God predetermined all my sins and predetermined everything in life including every small detail

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

In the basic passage that everyone knows jesus says whosoever that believes in him shall have everlasting life not the limited elect. If we have to believe in him we are using are free will to believe in him

I cannot on judgement day say all my sins are god's fault

Pay no attention to Calvinism. Monstrous doctrine taken to its final inevitable conclusion. Your gut (Holy Spirit) is leading you right.

I’ve heard a lot of counsel in the body over the years and in many continents. That is very definitely the first time I’ve heard a Godly mature man counsel someone to trust his gut and declare that to be the HS. God of course gave each of us a gut but mine is apparently not as sanctified.

He who is willing to do the will of the Lord will know whether any particular teaching is of God or is of man. Give the Lord your whole life as a sacrifice and instrument in His hands and you will know the perfect will of God. No matter the issue.

Don’t check your gut brother.

It’s just an expression. Don’t get overexcited. Oswald Chambers calls it a "check in your spirit” or "witness of the Spirit.” When this happens, you feel it. And you best listen.

I'm surprised the forum here allows anybody to say they disagree with calvinism!

I've been to several Christian forums and speaking against John Calvin is forbidden and they end up banning some over this.

I am sharing this video not to start a fight but to have a discussion on the strong and weak points of Calvinism. Many devoted Christian leaders are on both sides of this doctrine.

https://youtu.be/CwTUwNUB9_M

Thanks for the video Mike. I don’t hold anything against the person on the video or his attempt to articulate the reformed basis for God’s sovereignty in salvation, but it isn’t a reasonable explanation. As for it being a starting point for discussion of strengths and weaknesses, I’ve been down this path before having been on both sides in my journey. It may start well but it usually ends poorly with someone accusing the reformed believer and/or his God of being a monster which may be an accurate description of me but not of my God.

While the video was presented in an earnest and forthright manner. I tend to agree with Robert in that this topic does often devolve into a fleshly affair.
(For me) the question is why does that happen,… why can’t brothers and sisters in Christ sit and reason together on this issue?
What I found was that each side is advocating and neither side is actually coming to the table hoping to learn that their spiritual ideology is hogwash 🤷🏽”â™‚️
Which is to say, rarely if ever, does one "convert” in the midst of these discussions, rather what I’ve observed is the tendency to defend to the death the respective cause, regardless of the facts presented. So it’s more of a contest than anything resembling ministry. I’m not judging that as right or wrong so much as pointing it out as fact-

The question remains,… why?
from where my research has led me, it’s a fundamental question of the sovereignty of God. Wether He has sovereign authority only or wether He has sovereign control in addition to sovereign authority-

A person whose base conception of "God” who only holds one of these tenants to be true will categorically differ from a person whose base concept requires both tenants to be true. Which is to say the starting points are different, inevitably each will relate scripture to their base model and therefore come to entirely different conclusions as they each attempt to relate or fit it all together in their respective contexts. So it’s kinda like the difference between a Microsoft and Apple operating system. How they uptake, allocate, store data is different to the point of being incompatible directly from terminal to terminal.

So perhaps a more profitable discussion could be the nature and limits (if any) to Gods "sovereignty”.

Having said this, like the video points out- this all became formalized in the time of Augustine and was "institutionalized” by the mid 400’s ad.

Rom. 16:17,18

From such turn away...

https://theapostasyfiles.com/heretic-landing-page/vlad-savchuk/?amp=1

But even a discussion just of God’s sovereignty will devolve to certain uncommon denominators. Some folks are comfortable taking certain positions to their logical conclusions regardless of how it makes God look. Others are less comfortable.

It seems the only way our minds can conceptualize it is to hold two contradictory tenets (e.g. God does and God doesn’t) as simultaneously true- like Schrödinger’s cat.

As a born again follower of Jesus Christ, I hold to neither Calvinism nor Arminism. Both doctrines have to omit a number of Bible verses in order to work. Calvinists say you can't lose your salvation, and Arminians say once you fall away you cannot be restored. I understand where they derive these teachings, but they do not agree with the entirety of the Bible.

If Calvinism were true, then the elect were predestined to salvation, and the vessels of wrath were appointed for destruction before they were ever born. This contradicts John 3:16. God foreknows who will come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, but He desires that NONE should perish. However, He doesn't force people to be born again. Otherwise, why would we bother to evangelise? The elect would be saved by irresistible grace, if Calvinism were true. No free will in the matter on man's side (so they assert).

I have lived long enough to know people who were truly saved, filled with the Holy Ghost, baptised with the gifts in evidence....who yet fell away into horrible sin, denying the Lord Who bought them. One such person apologised to everyone he had led to Christ in the past, saying he was delusional and it was all in his head. Staggering, but true. A Calvinist would say that such persons had never been saved in the first place. This is not correct. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Apostasy is real. One cannot fall away if he or she were not saved in the first place. There would simply be nothing to fall from.

I like Spurgeon's prayer: "Lord, save the elect. And when You are done, elect some more." That is an evangelist's heart.

Why Calvinism Does Not Reflect the Nature and Character of God - Michael Brown

https://youtu.be/HupjRxBw-So

Yes those points are consistent with my observations.
Tho, what saith the scriptures ?

If we can stay on topic and not sling personal insults at the other party, then it could be possible as long as the scriptures are the sole basis of reference for the discussion ;)

Again, people are not capturing all the ins and outs of both views of salvation. It isn't monolithic. Wesley believed in total depravity. Many who say they are Arminians, do not.
There are also 4 point Calvinists who think one "can" be in danger of falling away and other five point reformed believers who believe His warnings of falling away are real so that the warnings of God to His people have meaning and actually create the fear that keeps them from falling away. There are many Arminians who believe He desires all to be saved to mean that all have an opportunity to be saved and yet there are many Arminians who will acknowledge the obvious that a large majority of created humanity over the centuries never heard the good news ( thus they gravitate to at least the logically consistent argument for universal reconciliation) and thus don't have that salvific opportunity that they say "desires all to be saved" must mean.

God can't desire all to be saved in the sense that all have an opportunity to be saved unless you are willing to do some serious rewriting of Scriptures in your own reasonings to construct a spiritual house of cards. And just to anticipate some pushback, I am fully aware now of the universal reconciliation justifications and would not need a download.

And Fletcher is right about the flesh stepping into the argument after you get through the Scripture "plucking" and presenting. And Todd is right, some serious personal issues about who God is start to infiltrate the conversation and you get to a place that is very uncomfortable for some because it leads to a less that pleasing determination that either many are created by God with less merciful opportunities than others and thus are hopeless in this life or that all have the chance to repent in their life and don't and that God then graciously decides to save some. But make no mistake as Todd has said many times and I commend it, that God is creating billions that will ultimately choose against Him knowing full well that future choice and its consequence and yet He creates them anyway. Why? And to suggest He does that to magnify man's free will as some say makes no compassionate sense whatsoever considering the consequences for billions. So the quandry.

Just for the record. God desires ( very strongly desires) that man not commit murder just like He desires ( very strongly desires) that all men everywhere repent and be saved ( and commands it). Yet, men murder and don't repent.
God decreed, predetermined and planned that men would betray and murder His Son. How can God desire that no man murder another and yet plan, control and by His power bring about the murder of His own Son. His death was not God's will and yet it was and He planned it, ordained it and arranged for it (and created and raised up men to do it) before the foundation of the world. That is Scripture and undeniable.

God very strongly desires that His children be cared for by the world and yet He wills and plans for and even as a loving Father desires their persecution, suffering and death. We can't get too constrained by single verses in our understanding of God's simultaneous strong desires and ultimate plans and focus on one over another.

I have very strongly held views thought through as best I can do with God's leading and much Scripture reading about the reformed position but have no problem being shown to be wrong.
I prefer and love the truth over being right. I gladly admit I was wrong in my early views of this issue (holding staunchly previously to Arminian thinking based on the very verses others have quoted) and have even lately modified my views on the warnings of God to His people. I find others are not open to being wrong mostly because they can't personally deal with the fact that billions end up in Hell and they can't understand God allowing that unless He stops being God when it comes to who spends eternity with Him after their hating Him and being His enemy otherwise during their lives. Perhaps that is the rub. Most people don't see the world as hating and being at traitorous enmity with God. Most people are mostly good and just need a break or at least are just ignorant and need some better information about God...... from their perspective.

I guess we could start with a show of hands of who thinks God actively predestines folks to hell from the foundation of the world.

Then I can work on nice ways of saying how abhorrent that is.

duplicate

Can you modify that statement Todd somewhat so that God foreknows and therefore predetermines men for hell who, and because they, actively, knowingly, willingly and desiringly choose to reject Him who has created them for Himself and who do so because they want to be God ? And, if you can do that as I trust you can, which is abhorrent?

I'm not trying to trap you but trying to get you to state the position correctly.

I do not at all subscribe to universal reconciliation, though I have seen it fervently discussed on other threads.

Regarding billions of souls, I tend to just think of two: Adam who fell, and Jesus Who redeems. We all have the fallen Adamic nature and deserve eternal separation from God, but those who are born again ("from above") in Christ are a new creature with His imputed righteousness (under His blood covering, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and washed in the water of His Word). Humanly speaking, we are all offshoots of Adam. His attributes are scattered throughout humanity's gene pool which has seen significant corruption after the sons of Noah began to spread out over the earth.

And in Christ we (plural) are part of His body, knit together in love. So in either case we are part of a group. Westerners (myself included) tend to be individualistic.

Robert -

If God foresees who will be saved and elects them on that basis that is not overtly objectionable (although I still have qualms and it seems a rather roundabout way of doing things) but that seems to be same thing as corporate election (I think).

Yes, but I wasn't saying that. I was saying that those who aren't elected are entirely responsible for their judgment as they hated God and rejected Him because they wanted to be God.
Almost completely, those who are reformed say ALL deserve punishment for being rebels, traitors and their own god. Yet, in mercy, God saves some. I know you have concluded that this is the same thing as double predestination but it isn't and I'm convinced you can't be convinced on that one so I'm not trying but rather giving others the accurate account of what reformed people say they believe rather than a reductionism of it as you might see it.

Got it.

When scripture tells us:

1 Tim. 2:1-6 ”“
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of ALL men……This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL………

Instead of much SELF-reasoning, shouldn’t we simply accept that God desires ALL men and women to be saved and pray for ALL men and women as urged?

Rom. 11:32-36 ”“
For God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
FOR WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
OR WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

If God predestines some to heaven and some to hell then there is no need for the gospel and fatilism or neo platism or machian gnotism
If am a Christian I cannot stand before God on judgement day and I say to jesus my sins I was predestined to sin
I have to accept my mistakes , jesus died on the cross for my sin
Why do I need jesus and the cross if some are predestined to heaven and hell and there are some elect but noone knows who they are.
I was going to post linking machian gnotism to calvinism as God predestined me to write that post if you are a calvinist

I am not simply a pawn on god's chess board. If there is no free will then worshipping god means something , love means something.

We are not robots. I am a sinner who needs a saviour.

Never met a Calvinist who said they weren’t one of the elect.

"God desires all men" to be saved, thus:

1. All men are and must in fact be saved throughout all time or else God doesn't really desire all men to be saved. (Universalism)

2. All men must receive sufficient or prevenient grace at some point in their life so that they have the ability, even momentary, to be saved from the penalty of sin through belief in God. (Arminianism)

3. All men can absolutely turn to God and be saved "if they desired" but none want to, therefore, God gives some men new hearts so that they really do see God for who He is in glory in the face of Jesus and they desire and want the God they see with their hearts as their great treasure forever. (Calvinism)

God gives mankind Jesus as a gift. Some see His value and some don't. Those who value Jesus as the gift that He is, for forgiveness and so much more, have a different set of desires that God has given and not as given by the flesh that desires self over God from start to finish. We are not a robot under control but a new man created by God. There is no warrant to call a new man a robot when he has been created in righteousness and holiness.

I hope I have characterized the three alternative consequences to "God desires all men to be saved". I left out Pelagianism. Please note that God does a work in all 3 cases that nobody in history asked for or wanted. HE provided salvation either as actual, potential or discriminate against all their flesh sinful nature wills. No one asked for universal salvation, or prevenient grace or a new heart, so the idea that Calvinism is forcing men to receive something they don't in the flesh want is actually the case in all three categories.

My attempt here is not to convince anyone as to the right position to take but rather to, I hope, eliminate straw man arguments that don't really reflect the relative positions accurately and maybe advance the conversation free of diversion or aspersion.

Ha! That’s funny ;)

I do have allot of friends and clients that are on the reformed grace "side” and as Robert pointed out, there is allot of nuance regarding their respective beliefs. Where some are 5 pointers, others 4 pointers and others still 2.5 (neo Calvinists) yet one quality has been more consistent than others, they are all strong in the word!
Far more than my Arminian friends/clients, my reformed brothers and sisters are very likely to engage with advanced biblical knowledge. What’s more is that they are generally grounded in what they believe to the extent they can all defend/debate their positions adequately. They also, from my observations, are less likely to fall into the more common sins as they run a "tight ship”. Whereas most of my Arminian brothers and sisters, seem to struggle with or take longer to overcome some of the more common lusts.

There’s a subtle yet distinct fraternal feel to the Calvinists that I’ve experienced… meaning they stick together and tho it most likely remains unspoken, I imagine that if I were one of the elect and happened upon another person in need, say a flat tire, if in the course of my interactions with them I discovered they too were one of the elect, I would feel connected in a way that I might otherwise not,… because we are both part of a hyper specialized group within they varied strata of society.,… the literal spiritual 1%”ers.

Of course this is also true when in the same situation a person belonging to a specific denomination happens upon another of the same, it would be a joyous occasion, without a doubt they would each share in an exclusive experience,… but not to the same extent as being elected by God to salvation and believing that was an immutable function of Gods grace. Though because being individually elected is without any individual merit, then it becomes a lottery of sorts. Where the individual was "pre-elected” based on Gods sovereign choice, which is itself unassailable, so the question for the billions upon billions of people God created is, "am I one of the elect?” or did I get a winning ticket ?

Tho in this game, you aren’t a willing participant, rather this is forced upon you and you are subject to the consequences, eternally, tho you have absolutely no control or even effectual part to play in wether or not you are elected, but are nonetheless eternally tormented for not being elected… thanks for playing 🤷🏽”â™‚️

This is not what I find when I read, study, eat the word… nor is it how Holy Spirit
handles me…. nor is it what I’ve witnessed …. therefore it cannot be my testimony as He has never mentioned it once without me asking first

Having said this, I’m also not an Arminian and (as anyone) could easily point out the same shortcomings. For me it’s like the different versions of the trinity… it’s not that they’re all incorrect so much as incomplete.
And no I haven’t worked it all out (yet), but I have no problem not knowing the answers to everything right now, I’m glad there’s tons more to learn 😃 but I’m not gonna lie to myself before God and say these "doctrines” are the end of the matter …. not a chance 🤷🏽”â™‚️

You are correct Fletcher- I don’t think any one "system” can adequately cover all bases.

In regard to election, I had a Calvinist youth pastor who responded to my objection that it seemed unfair, said it’s actually "super fair,” in that no one deserves it, so the fact God elects some is more than fair. Didn’t sit right then and still doesn’t.

The devil always presents errors as opposites, and hopes that, in our hatred for one, we choose the other. It's our job to ignore both and go straight up the middle, and take God at HIS word.

I was saying that those who aren't elected are entirely responsible for their judgment as they hated God and rejected Him because they wanted to be God.

And yet a core tenet of Calvinism is total depravity from birth coupled with total inability to receive the truth or believe the gospel because they are 'dead in sin'. So how are lost sinners "without excuse" as described in Romans 1:20. If Calvinism is true it seems that they have a most excellent excuse.

-Daniel

Todd, many reformed people believe you won't know you are in the elect unless you persevere until the end so the notion as you state it isn't accurate. Again, straw men descriptions are always an attempt to diminish the Biblical argument by denigrating or make silly the speaker(s)

……take God at HIS word.

Amen.

Not "Calvinism” or "Arminianism” or "Universalism” BUT:

Ps. 119:105 ”“
Your word is a lamp to my feet
And a light to my path.

John 6:63 ”“
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 16:13 ”“
…………when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth………

Will the Holy Spirit lead us into all the truth if "Calvinism” or "Arminianism” or "Universalism” is leading us?

JFW wrote of Calvinists: "They also, from my observations, are less likely to fall into the more common sins as they run a "tight ship”. Whereas most of my Arminian brothers and sisters, seem to struggle with or take longer to overcome some of the more common lusts."

But why is the Southern Baptist Convention in the U.S. so saturated with freemasons? How can one be a Calvinist Christian and go to the lodge, worshipping "Yah-Baal-On," the masonic trinity? United Methodists (Arminians) in that part of the nation practise the same, so this cuts across both ideologies.

//many reformed people believe you won't know you are in the elect unless you persevere until the end//

Not a very comforting thought.