Different levels of heaven. Treasuring Jesus

A pastor who is often posted on this site and one whom I generally like to listen to preached a sermon posted a few days ago. . In it, he suggested that there are different levels of heaven for believers. The highest level is for the "Bride” who produced a hundred fold of fruit which he likened to a person who submitted to the sanctification process becoming more Ike Jesus. There are other categories of believers he asserts that did not submit to this training and are not thus "the Bride”. He says these are true believers who go to heaven but these valued and loved things of this world more than Jesus. If I’ve got my hearing and facts right, this is more than just error. It seems that he believes, and he says others likewise preach, that it is possible to have idolatry in your heart, as a matter of life practice, and still go to heaven.

Isn’t treasuring or loving anything more than Jesus idolatry. Janes calls it spiritual adultery. Ezekiel 14 says idols of the heart are detestable to God and He is estranged from those who have it. Ezekiel 36 days in the New Covenant God cleanses is from all idols at new birth. Paul says not to be deceived, no idolater will enter heaven.

I will post the sermon not to condemn or finger wag but to allow others to confirm my understanding of what was said.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KwIauRxf6Dg

This is actually a gigantic issue in the professing church, especially so in US and prosperity Gospel countries where valuing possessions, health and comfort are center place in many supposed conversions. The Kingdom is like a man who treasures Jesus far above all created things. There is nothing we should desire on earth compare to Jesus and yet the professing church is filled
with people who love family, money, this life, success, and security/safety more than Jesus. There literally is an epidemic of idolatry in the professing church and most still think they will still be received by Jesus…..

All are the Bride who are dressed in white linen which is the righteous acts of the saints. The Bride, Jesus says, is the church.

Hi Robert,
How do you reconcile your view with scriptures like 1 Corinthians 3:12-15…
Are you suggesting some sort of equality or sameness between saints ?
And how do you parse out who is or isn’t part of the bride ?

Thanks

Hi Fletcher.

1 Corinthians 3:12- is about ministry work. The foundation a minister of Christ lays is Christ and the walls or building materials (depending on your interpretation) is either truth or the living stones (versus false believers (stubble) of the spiritual temple and Saints are the Bride from Revelation 19 and 21 and Ephesians 5.

As far as distinctions between saints, we all will be like him when we see him face to face. Differences will be rewards and proximity. The last being speculation from Christ’s statement about who sits on his left and right. Proximity is enough reward for me but past and present pride may have me at the entry gate. :).

There are no idolaters in heaven no matter how many levels there may or not be.

deleted my post

Markus

How much idolatry is too much? And how do you define it?

That’s the problem.

Christians generally don’t bow the knee to Baal but they may bow the knee to themselves on occasion.

Jesus warned a church that that seemed to be in a blind state of idolatry in Laodicea that their hearts were detestable to Him. Paul warned the church in Corinth that practiced pride and covetousness which is idolatry that such people would not inherit the kingdom if it continued so that they would not be deceiving themselves.

Frankly, given the state of things, the question that matters is not how much is too much. It's been way too much for way too long for way too many. It's a distraction to focus on a legalistic determination of where the bottom of the barrel is. There is no doubt that the idols of the heart problem is so pervasive and time is so short that we should be more focused on fleeing idolatry than figuring out where a safe place to land in Zoar is. Fleeing is the exhortation and a theological debate about where the minimum passable idolatry is is more of a distraction. Jesus said be zealous and repent. He was not trying to console or pacify.

Idolatry of self, relationships, this life, money and possessions, etc. These idols stand between us and God and for those who ignore the issue, they stand between us and eternal life. Nobody should look inward and say this or that idol isn't so bad or isn't so disqualifying. Flee is a strong and inarguable word because we aren't just fleeing from sin but from destruction and joining in the judgement of the world by God as described in Revelation 17-19.

Jesus died for our sins. So we don’t need to worry about legalistic definitions. You are suggesting there are sins Jesus did not die for. If that is the case we can have absolutely no assurance of our salvation.

True Christians do not practice idolatry. But they commit the sin of idolatry from time to time - all of us do even you. Jesus paid it all.

Todd, There are many that are "practicing” idolatry. You are very right that I do occasionally. Practicing is extremely dangerous and no one has assurance of forgiveness if they practice any sin but especially the sin of loving created things more than the Creator. Or, treasuring gifts more than the true treasure.

Jesus said you cannot treasure things or people and Him. It isn’t possible. One who attempts this is "not able” to be His follower. Those aren’t my words. He died for us to turn from idols, not make Him live with them in the heart. Can we start to serve them and live for them again? Yes. Can we remain in them and remain in Him and His love. If you do, you will most assuredly be broken off.
The attempt at assurance while deliberate sin of loving things more than Jesus that is ongoing is dangerous and is not truth.

Interestingly this (proximity) is what I found as well when searching this matter out…
Yet wouldn’t this "proximity to the throne” itself create "levels” as it were… ?

(for me) When Moses received the heavenly pattern, itself consisting of 3 distinct boundaries (levels/proximity) to the Holy of Holies, then Heaven would likewise have similar if not the same type boundaries….

Again (for me) this is why Jesus made a distinction in describing in order;
1. The Kingdom of Heaven
2. The Kingdom of God
3. Christs” Kingdom (of priests - forever after the order of Melchizedek)

With each corresponding to the outer court, inner court, Holiest of Holies-
as I see it, there’s just one pattern repeating over and over all while culminating in ever increasing weight/importance, until Christs” triumphant return.

So my question is, if the gates of the kingdom are open and people come and go, and we are ruling and reigning with Christ and we are all the bride …. Then who are all the other people being ruled and reigned over that are coming and going ?

Jesus explained proximity as seats at a table. Seem simpler to me. I don’t know about comings and goings. All that eternal life is meant to describe is knowing and being overjoyed in Him. The New Jerusalem is not a place or structure with levels or courts. It is God with all His people. Rev 21.

Yeah…. that’s why I don’t find that the scriptures teach that every saved person ultimately makes up or is included in the Bride…
If everyone saved is the Bride of Christ then who are those in attendance at the wedding feast?? 🤷🏽”â™‚️

In any case, before we take aim at another brother’s understanding, labeling it as false teaching or heresy or apostasy, we would do well to tidy up our own house and have our ducks in a row,… lest we be found wanting 😰

The Bride is the saints according to this verse Fletcher.

Unchecked Copy BoxRev 19:7 - "Let’s rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, because the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His [fn]bride has prepared herself.”
- It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

The Bride is clothed in the righteous acts of the saints.

As for heresy, if you listened to the sermon, the speaker said that there are people in heaven who spent their Christian lives loving other things more than Jesus. That is most definitely false teaching and worse is deceiving false believers.

Hi Robert,
The scriptures also state (clearly) that the Lord our God is one Lord…. so because it says this does that mean there is no trinity ??

Can you see how foolish it would be to take a single scripture and build a doctrine around it,…? I do hope so 🙏🏻

Interestingly, the verse you cited doesn’t actually say that the "saints are the bride” but rather she is clothed in their righteous acts - even if it did (and I believe they make up the bride) it doesn’t say that all believers, or all the church or all saints will be included in the bride 🤷🏽”â™‚️ it stops short of saying that and when the marriage supper appears in scripture, there are always attendees…

In any case, it’s important for us all to consider that our perception of reality isn’t reality,… it’s our perception and with that we need perspective,… specifically Christ’s perspective ,.. otherwise we are not perceiving reality but simply the ideas about it that we can accept within the framework of our perspective. This inevitably leads us into error - an example of this is taking a single verse or concept and building a doctrine around it…. rather than taking the whole council and divide rightly 🙏🏻

Matthew 25:1-13 speaks of wise and foolish virgins. They're all virgins, but only five have oil in their lamps and, though all ten slumbered because the Bridegroom was delayed in coming, only the five wise were ready. The others were shut out. If these verses are alluding to professing Christians, then we really do need to consider them well.

I once heard classical Pentecostal preacher Bert Clendennen say, in the midst of a sermon, that Israel is always referred to as "he," and Jerusalem as "she." He then said that the woman (Eve) was formed from the man (Adam), just as the church is male, but the bride (of Christ) is female. Clendennen said the bride will be formed from, and taken out of, the church.

Some interesting thoughts.

I have now listened to the whole message and decided to write some comments again:
At the very beginning he quotes half of verse 1 and concludes that the book of Revelation "is all about the revelation of Jesus Christ",
But when we read the whole of verse 1 it is clear that it is a revelation from Jesus about events that must soon take place. He misinterprets already verse 1 and then builds his whole message on it. Not a good start.

Some quotes from his message:
5:42 "some bring forth a 100 fold, some 60 fold, some 30 fold..."
6:02 "when we come to this planet we all have the same calling...to be 100 fold"

In Ephesians 4:11 we read: "And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ,…"
People have different callings...with the purpose to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ

6:15 "and the 100 fold is the Bride..."
Where did God say that ?
How can we as believers know that we are 100 fold ?

A lot of read flags - pointing to a false gospel!

Markus

Hi Chris,

That is similar/consistent with what I’ve found the scriptures to foretell insofar as the church is the body Eph 5 and out of that body, a small portion will be taken to form the Bride- hence the Bride being clothed in the righteous acts of the saints… all following the pattern God established in the garden.
Eve being the only thing ever created by God from another living being… where 1st Adam was formed from the dust/good ground, the last Adam was begotten by the Spirit and as such His Bride will be formed from His spiritual body-

Fletcher,

When Ephesians 5 says that the human institution of marriage is a picture of Christ and His Church, it's inarguably clear that this is a reference to the whole church ( called out ones, saints ) Look at the beginning of Chapter 4 as Markus points out and read through Ephesians 5 and I think you will see that the whole teaching is about the whole church; unless you are bound in an interpretation and conclusion that you've come to about the Bride that would preclude objectivity. The simple is always better than the complicated.

How many levels and who is where in heaven wasn't the point of my post on false teaching. Any of us can be wrong on those issues and be merely wrong.

My intense concern is over the very widespread presence of idols of the heart in the church among real believers who need to wake up that this is intolerable with the Lord. He must be supreme in the heart. Most are blind to their idols not because of ignorance but because of suppression of the truth and often the church is blind to the problem and its consequences as is the case in the sermon teaching I posted. Very dangerous.

Additionally, there are people who think they have been converted who brought their idols of the heart into their supposed walk with God and have never had them cleansed or demolished as is supposed to happen with new birth. Yet, they are totally unaware that this was supposed to happen when they believed; that Jesus was to become supreme in their affections, loyalty, devotion, love and relationship. This is most tragic as they are not only self deceived but also teacher deceived. They are lost and no one is helping them see it. Just as tragic is that the real church is caught up in their own idols of the heart ( good gifts from God becoming treasures above God, supreme in fact even if not in profession).

The problem is that we start by ignoring idols of the heart within our doctrine, then we tolerate idols of the heart in our practice, and finally, we embrace idols of the heart as virtuous.... like family being number one in our hearts or financial security being a God commanded ideal or desire and thus our hearts are free to embrace covetousness and build many barns if God so "blesses" us. The letter to the Laodecian church isn't just about the idol of money and Jesus being outside the door. Just substitute anything for money that a heart is more attached to than Jesus and you have a divided heart and thus one that makes Jesus' sick. Jesus said, you are "not able" to have a divided heart and be in the Kingdom.

The real church needs to clear out the idols of the temple (individual and corporate), then the glory of the Lord will fill the temple and the idols in the world will be a target for the church in its outreach. Read the story of Hezekiah in 2 Chronicles 29 to see how the Lord instructs as to the house cleaning that will cause the glory of the Lord ( His Light and Presence) to fill His temple and bless the work of His people in the country. The same principle is set forth in Ezekiel 14.

Idols in the hearts of God's people are sickening to the Lord and "estrange" ( a marriage word) Him from His people (Ezekiel 14). Self ambition, self seeking, self focus or a turning of the gifts of God into a treasure instead of a focus and first priority on Christ and His body is spiritual adultery and therefore grounds for mourning and weeping, zealous repentance, and an immediate, thorough and even violent cleansing of the temple heart and the temple corporate body by the leaders and the priests of the Lord.

Here's a test, consider what one thinks most about, spends most of their time worried about, prays the most about, is most sad about when it is missing in your life and you will be able to discern a probable idol of the heart if it's anything other than Jesus. This might be health, money, family, job, retirement account, even ministry. I've given this test to hundreds of pastors and asked them to rank such things in their own hearts ( not in their theology but in the area of desire ). In almost all cases, and I'm not exaggerating, the pastors have humbly and without guile acknowledged that there are God given gifts in their life that they desire and care for in their life more than Jesus. They love Jesus of course, but they have divided hearts. Tragically, so go the leaders but the people likewise want it that way and so the teaching of the churches involved is more about secondary things rather than sacrifice and suffering for the sake of Christ and His Bride.

Robert you wrote;
" When Ephesians 5 says that the human institution of marriage is a picture of Christ and His Church, it's inarguably clear that this is a reference to the whole church ( called out ones, saints ) Look at the beginning of Chapter 4 as Markus points out and read through Ephesians 5 and I think you will see that the whole teaching is about the whole church; unless you are bound in an interpretation and conclusion that you've come to about the Bride that would preclude objectivity. The simple is always better than the complicated.”

While there is no disagreement in the initial statement, the conclusion each of draws is based on a different disposition-
(for me) to take what is an obvious metaphor and attempt to apply it in a strict literal framework is unworkable,… rather we should take the literal parts literally and the allegorical/metaphorical parts figuratively,… allowing the text to present itself in its own native context without me applying my bias in an attempt to harness and drive it. It’s far more profitable to allow the word to speak for Himself 🙏🏻

Regarding the transition into idolatry,… personally I couldn’t agree more and witness it on a daily. It is indeed grievous but we must not let our love grow cold and become a judge,… rather intercede in prayer and look for opportunities to minister to them. Having said that, we all should be honest about our struggles and trials, weaknesses and missteps … it’s easy to idealize our perspective here on SI in these discussions, however we too will be judged not so much ch on what we knew or had, but on what we did with it and at the end of the day the scriptures are clear, us loving one another and being of one accord is the prayer of our Lord ✝️
Calling someone out is biblical, but not before you’ve prayed and to be totally honest,… the times the Lord has used me to do such a thing, I didn’t want to do it and even resisted most every time. Whereas there have been many times I’ve wanted to speak out and He wouldn’t let me, but He would let me pray 🙏🏻

Thanks Fletcher for your testimony about your prayer life and tears for the church. I really can’t and should not respond to it though as I have no personal knowledge about you and those important things.

There is much (but not all) in this sermon by Joe Sweet that I agree with.

Glory to the Lamb of God!

1.27
The first five words of the Book of Revelation are these: "the revelation of Jesus Christ”. So that the Book of Revelation is more about revealing who Jesus is than about all end-time events. It says what the book is more about is revealing His leadership, His heart, His wisdom, His love, His character. Yes, there are end-time events in there……but the primary thing about the Book of Revelation is it is revealing to us who Jesus is……

Absolutely agree.

32:29
……we have to become non-judgmental. It doesn’t mean we throw out all discernment. It doesn’t mean we can’t see things that maybe aren’t right. But we don’t judge the motive……we haven’t walked in other people’s shoes. We don’t know the hell some people have been through……it is ok to assess. It is ok to have boundaries. But when we pass judgment we are not walking in love…………a non-judgmental love……that is my goal……

No objection to this statement at all.

5:09
……all Christians don’t walk on the same level in heaven……we can all have different levels of walk with God based on how much we are willing to believe Him and yield to the transforming power of His Word and Spirit and that is biblically solid. Jesus said when He talked about the Kingdom relating to the Sower sowing the Word. Those that do hear and do the Word bring forth fruit do it in degrees. Some bring forth a hundred-fold, some sixty-fold, some 30-fold. But God loves everybody. He is going to love the one that gets in by the skin of his teeth like the thief on the cross. And he loves the Apostle Paul. But they are not sitting in the same place in heaven. They don’t have the same eternal purposes. Yes, now when we come to this planet we have the same calling to be a hundred-fold but whether we are 30, 60 or 100 is up to us and the hundred-fold is the bride. And God loves Jesus so much that out of the body there is going to be a part of the body that said, not because God said no you can’t, but because we said no I won’t……it is not because God said……I am not calling you to be part of the bride but because we are saying we are not interested. I am more in love with the world……with my career……with toys……with Ministry than you. But there are other people who will realize what the real treasure……are having a relationship going on with God, are becoming conformed to Him. So that’s the overcomer who is the bride……

I do not agree with Joe Sweet on this.

SOME COMMENTS:

(1)

Fruit is produced by abiding in Christ and Christ in us. More fruit is produced by the Father’s pruning knife. The test is not how much fruit BUT whether there is fruit or no fruit. All branches with fruit remain on the vine. All branches without fruit are taken away from the vine. Also, all branches with fruit have the same proximity to the vine because all branches are directly joined to the vine.

John 15 ”“
I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
……
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

(2)

I would say the bride is made up of believers who are awarded the crown of righteousness by keeping the faith to the end.

2 Tim. 4:7-8 ”“
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

The Lord Jesus Himself said:

Matt. 24:13 ”“
But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

(3)

God’s eternal purpose:

Eph. 1:9-10 ”“
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

1 Cor. 15:28 ”“
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, SO THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

(4)

ALL are called to press on to maturity and to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Eph. 4:11-13 ”“
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until WE ALL attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a MATURE MAN, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the FULLNESS OF CHRIST.

Gal. 4:19 ”“
My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you””

Phil. 3:12-14 ”“
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I PRESS ON so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I PRESS ON toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

(4)

ALL are called NOT to love the world.

1 John 2:15-17 ”“
Do not love the world nor the things in the world. IF ANYONE LOVES THE WORLD, THE LOVE OF THE FATHER IS NOT IN HIM. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

All are called to deny self.

Matt. 16:24 ”“
Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me……”

ALL are called to lay aside the old self and put on Christ.

Rom. 13:14 ”“
But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

Eph. 4:22-24 ”“
……lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

We are all called to look away from everything else and to fix our eyes on Jesus alone.

Heb. 12:1-2 ”“
……let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

(5)

ALL are called to walk in the Light.

1 John 1:5-7 ”“
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Note:
It is only when we walk in the Light that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

(6)

Is there scripture that clearly says that there are different levels of heaven for believers?

Rev. 21 indicates that in the new heaven and new earth, there are just:

(i) The New Jerusalem, the HOLY city, the Bride of the Lamb.

(ii) The NATIONS that walk by New Jerusalem’s light and the kings of the earth will bring the glory and honour of the nations into New Jerusalem.

The NATIONS are also HOLY because nothing unclean can come into New Jerusalem. Also, the nations are healed by the leaves of the tree of life (Rev. 22:2).

There certainly will be no "class system” in God’s new heaven and earth! I would say that New Jerusalem would serve the nations (Mark 10:42-45) and the nations will bring their glory and honour into New Jerusalem, all to the glory of God.

(All caps just for emphasis.)

ADD:

The veil has been torn forever and now we can all enter with confidence into the Holy of Holies, into the very Presence of God.

Heb. 10:19-22 ”“
Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Let us enter!

Romans 4:7-8 "Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Here's a very Biblical unpacking of the deception that is so destructive when it comes to "sinning" in practice "Christians" and their eternal destiny even if they sincerely count on their faith in Jesus. It deals with levels of heaven and with the universalist approach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csrMDKeKQPg

True Christians don’t practice sinning. Isn’t that obvious?

How many covetous people are encouraged in the church to accumulate wealth as a virtuous pursuit and told they will be in heaven ?

50% of church attenders and pastors regularly engage in viewing porn and ALL sincerely believe they will be forgiven and in heaven ?

How many people in the visible church have self as the center of their daily lives and consider this normal or forgivable even if there is no change ( repentance in this life) ? How many have godly sorrow and weeping and mourning within the born again over such a state of affairs in peoples' lives ?

Nope, it's not obvious in our practiced doctrine or in our heart attitudes whatsoever.

Perhaps, watch the sermon that was posted.

For some reason Todd, you have this predisposition to put wet blankets on God's warnings and poo poo Scriptures that try to wake a sleeping church up to make things right and to help the deceived come to a knowledge of the truth.

A huge majority of Gospel and Epistle content is directed at the church to constantly remind people of the danger of last days presumption and lack of diligence to the loss of soul. Jesus knows it won't be obvious and was insistent on constant reminders of His expectations of what faithful and born again
believers must live and teach in these days where people will be self deceived.

1 Timothy 4:11-16

Prescribe and teach these things.

Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith, and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.

Until I come, give your attention to the public reading, to exhortation, and teaching.

Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was granted to you through words of prophecy with the laying on of hands by the council of elders.

Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.

Pay close attention to yourself and to the teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

I actually work in multitudes of places where this is not obvious and know for a fact that the situation was caused by western church and church planting movements bringing that stuff in to itching ears that want salvation and their worldly life at the same time. Dagan in the Lord's presence and a holding onto things devoted to destruction. And often, the ability of this bad and soul destructive doctrine is facilitated by people who teach that All professing believers go to heaven or at least get a second chance in some kind of psuedo purgatory.

Nope, it's not obvious and it is allowed to sweep across the world because true believers have been silent and failed to hold up the high standards of God and His promises and power that make those standards "fair". In fact, when you have created doubts in peoples' minds about the essential requirement that they repent before this life ends in order to go to heaven by creating the possible opportunity for salvation after death, you make these passages on not practicing sin obscure.

Those branches that do not produce the fruits of righteousness in their life on a consistent basis will be broken off, those who do not serve the saints in love may not be renewed to repentance, those who are not corrected in their sin in this life are illegitimate children, those who go on deliberately sinning in this life after receiving a knowledge of the truth will fall into the hands of a consuming God for judgement.

These are obvious. Yet, Peter said this:

2Pe 1:10-15

Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choice of you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them and have been established in the truth which is present with you.
I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder,
knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.
And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.

Obviousness is obviously not the issue to God. Taking them seriously to heart is, and many dilute, diminish or forget them and fail to understand the urgency of them, some to their own harm and some to others' eternal harm.

Robert,

You preach righteousness and holiness. So do I.

Why are you against the great eradication of sin and death in the grand ages of eternity when ALL of God’s creation are HOLY, HOLY, HOLY before God?

When the Lord Jesus said,

Matt. 28:18 ”“
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "ALL authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth…………”

……will not ALL sin and death in all eternal darkness succumb to the all-powerful eternal Light of Life?

Should we not rejoice that the sun of righteousness has risen with healing in its wings and will shine brighter and brighter until the full day, when

Phil. 2:10-11 ”“
……………at the name of Jesus EVERY knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

?

(Caps for emphasis)

Hi Jade.

I’m not against universal reconciliation and the salvation of all who ever lived. I’m all for it if you wonder what I would truly desire from a human standpoint. I honestly see Scripture not teaching that. Not as extreme or sanctified as Paul, I wish all in flesh could be saved. But, Im really cautious to think with man’s concerns in mind when trying to discern God’s thoughts and ways from Scripture. We have to be careful to avoid taking a few pieces of the puzzle and making that the whole when we come to Scriptures. Taken as a whole, the truth says basically that final judgment is final judgment and the books are opened and those written in the book of life receive that life and those who aren’t (because of their own rejection of God) go to eternal and everlasting torment and judgment.

I know clearly your position to the contrary.

Hi Robert,

Taken as a whole, the truth says basically that final judgment is final judgment and the books are opened and those written in the book of life receive that life and those who aren’t (because of their own rejection of God) go to eternal and everlasting torment and judgment.

Is that really the final truth?

What really is the end of the story?

See what Rev. 21 and Rev. 22 brings in.

If "New Jerusalem” is the bride, tell me who are "the nations”.

If "New Jerusalem” is already holy and glorious, who are the nations that are by healed the leaves from the tree of life?

Who are the Spirit and the bride calling to come and take of the water of life without cost?

Taken as a whole, through the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, sin infected Eve and through Eve into Adam and through Adam to the entire human race.

And grace (in Christ) in the seed of the woman came through a woman and to the entire human race.

(A full reversal!)

Just as scripture says:

Rom. 5:12 ”“
……through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to ALL men, because ALL sinned””

Rom. 5:18 ”“
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to ALL men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to ALL men.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil in Genesis destroyed all.

The tree of life at the end of Revelation saves all.

Have you considered this scripture:

Isa. 26:9 --
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

And many, many pieces more.

We have to be careful to avoid taking a few pieces of the puzzle and making that the whole when we come to Scriptures.

Are all these many pieces included in your own theology or are these missing pieces ("holes") in your theology? Do you yourself have the whole truth?

We have debated on this issue before. How can we condemn non-believers for not believing if we ourselves cannot accept scriptures that conflict with our own theological beliefs?

Got it. I took a look at Revelation 22 and just before the Spirit makes a final offer for people to come, it says this.

Rev 22:14 - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie

When exactly do people after the final judgment start doing Jesus’ commandments, who do they love and serve, etc, who were sent to the lake of fire at the final judgment? Are they loving and serving in the lake of fire and therefore have a right to then enter? And who are these people who apparently don’t obey His commands and where are they living?

In pitch black darkness, can there be light without fire?

Even John the Baptist said Christ will baptize (immerse) us with the Holy Spirit and FIRE.

Can Christians be righteous and holy and be able to do Christ's commandments before this baptism/immersion?

Not sure you really answered the verse question. When do these post judgment rejecters and haters of Jesus in the darkness and fire start obeying Jesus’ commandments to love and serve people especially the brethren and how do they do it in the lake of fire ?

In the verse obedience precedes entry into the gates.

Got it. I took a look at Revelation 22 and just before the Spirit makes a final offer for people to come, it says this.

Rev 22:14 - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie

When exactly do people after the final judgment start doing Jesus’ commandments, who do they love and serve, etc, who were sent to the lake of fire at the final judgment? Are they loving and serving in the lake of fire and therefore have a right to then enter? And who are these people who apparently don’t obey His commands and where are they living?

My comment:

Rev. 22:14 is the Good News of the Kingdom of God.

Rev. 22:15 is the demand for holiness in the Kingdom of God.

Rev. 22:17 is the New Covenant of Grace that would enable sinners to be holy and therefore able to enter the Kingdom of God.

The people will be able to do Jesus’ commandments and be able to enter by the gates into the city AFTER they have taken the water of life offered in Rev. 22:17.

Another Comment:

The lake of fire is the "second death” for the people thrown into it. It is NOT written that these people will be tormented in there for ever and ever.

I think we are still not communicating directly. Those who are allowed to enter the gates are those who have already obeyed Jesus’ commandments. Simply, they must love others and serve them before they enter. How and who exactly do they love and serve before they enter the city. Check the referenced verse and see the order. I’m not catching how you think they love and serve before they enter the city when there is only the city and the lake.

Those who are allowed to enter the gates are those who have already obeyed Jesus’ commandments.

That is not what Rev. 22:14 says.

The verse says: "Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates to the city” (NASB).

They can only be robed in righteousness after they have taken the water of life offered in v.17. (See also Titus 3:4-7).

KJV

If you look at Revelation 19 the clothes of the saints or Bride are the righteous acts of the saints. Thus Rev 22:14 has to do with the clothing of righteous acts done in obedience by the saints. Look at the Greek etymology and you will see this clearly. It is literally robes or clothing of obedience to commandments., ie., a gown of the righteous acts of the saints which are demonstrably in the faith filled loving service to others in word and deed. I realize that might jeopardize a mindset but if one is careful, you will see the clear parallel between Revelation 19’s reference to the Bride and Revelation22’s reference to New Jerusalem/Bride as set forth in Revelation 21.

Just for the sake of pursuing the truth (which I can see you clearly love), take a look at the Greek of 22:14 and the cross reference with Rev 19:8 and Revelation 21:2. It’s a single picture and meaning.

I ask you again:

WHO are the NATIONS that are healed by the leaves of the tree of life (Rev. 22:2)?

WHO are the Spirit and the BRIDE calling to take of the water of life without cost (Rev.22:17)?

Also,

The lake of fire is the second death.

1 Cor. 15:26 tells us that the last enemy that will be abolished is death.

ADD:

Rev. 22:14

If New Jerusalem is the bride, how does the bride enter by its own gates into itself?

It is the KINGS OF THE EARTH that bring the honour and glory of the NATIONS into the city, New Jerusalem, whose gates will never be closed (Rev. 21:24-26).

Compare with Isa. 66:23 -- "All flesh shall come and worship before Me," says the LORD.

(All caps just for emphasis)

Jade, the honor and wealth of the nations, the ethnos purchased by Christ, the inheritance of those nations that the Father promised Jesus, the precious and treasured possession, the jewels….. this is the glory and honor of the nations, the sons and daughter of glory revealed that all creation has bee
groaning for for thousand of years. Way too clear. The Kings of the nations bring the chosen ones to Him. That’s OT and New.

Robert, that is what some theologians say. Scripture says Christ died for the sins of the WHOLE world (1 John 2:2) and Jesus is Saviour of the world (1 John 4:14). If you reject that, then you reject the name of Jesus.

That’s definitely a strong position Jade. Telling people that will get you into dangerous trouble one day. Your statement is not what the Bible says about saving faith. Maybe you went too far with that ?

Robert,

I am not questioning your salvation. I know you have a true heart for God. And I say this sincerely.

I will reword my statement as follows:

That is what some theologians say. Scripture says Christ died for the sins of the WHOLE world (1 John 2:2) and Jesus is Saviour of the world (1 John 4:14). If you reject that, then you reject THIS wonderful name of Jesus.

---------

Praise the Lord for His great unselfishness and infinite love! He will search for every lost sheep and find them and carry them home on His strong and mighty shoulders!

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Thanks Jade. I wasn’t personally offended by what you said. My concern was that your statement would be used on others as a general requirement of saving faith. Thanks though.

I do have a question prompted by your statement about the wonderful name of Jesus. This isn’t posed in sarcasm. Would your heart still consider Jesus wonderful if all weren’t ultimately saved and some, many or even most of created mankind were, hypothetically, consigned to everlasting punishment? I’m not asking if you think such punishment is wonderful. I’m asking if Jesus would still be wonderful to you if he as the judge said depart into everlasting darkness….I never knew you. I’m not asking if you agree that he does this. I’m asking if you think he would be wonderful to you or a monster for this kind of judgment.

Some people would say that whatever God decides or does is by definition good. Others would say God is good if he does X,Y or Z. Hope the distinction is clearly communicated. It is a distinction that makes a difference in churches and Bible interpretation and understanding. For example, I hear this kind of statement all the time….,,My God would never purposely bring suffering or persecution into His children’s’ lives. My God is loving and desires the best for his children.

Robert,

Would your heart still consider Jesus wonderful if all weren’t ultimately saved and some, many or even most of created mankind were, hypothetically, consigned to everlasting punishment?

This will NOT happen. It is pre-empted by two very important things:

(1)
THE POWER OF INTERCESSION

When there are intercessors, God gives deliverance. When there are no intercessors, His judgments come down.

Ezek. 22:30-31 ”“
And I sought for a man among them who should build up the wall and stand in the breach before me for the land, that I should not destroy it, but I found none. Therefore I have poured out my indignation upon them. I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath.

The Church has been called to intercede for ALL men.

1 Tim. 2:1-6 ”“
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of ALL men……This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for ALL………

There ARE believers who will heed this call and intercede and gain deliverance and salvation for ALL men. There ARE believers who have the same heart as their Saviour.

The Lord Jesus Himself is the Great Intercessor.

Isa. 53:12 --
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

At the Cross:

Luke 23:34 ”“
But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”

The Lord Jesus bore the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). His transgressors include every descendant of Adam. He has interceded for all.

(2)
THE POWER OF GOD’S NAME, GOD’S LOVINGKINDNESS AND GOD’S MERCY

Ps. 106:8 ”“
Nevertheless HE SAVED THEM FOR THE SAKE OF HIS NAME,
That He might make His power known.

Isa. 43:25 ”“
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions FOR MY OWN SAKE,
And I will not remember your sins.

Jer. 14:7 ”“
"Although our iniquities testify against us,
O Lord, act FOR YOUR NAME’S SAKE!
Truly our apostasies have been many,
We have sinned against You.

Ps. 44:26 ”“
Rise up, be our help,
And redeem us FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR LOVINGKINDNESS.

Titus 3:4-7 ”“
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, HE SAVED US, NOT ON THE BASIS OF DEEDS WHICH WE HAVE DONE IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Jesus is a wonderful Saviour!

Isa. 9:6-7 ”“
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
THERE WILL BE NO END TO THE INCREASE OF HIS GOVERNMENT OR OF PEACE,

Ps. 145:8-9 ”“
The Lord is gracious and merciful;
Slow to anger and great in lovingkindness.
The Lord is good to all,
And His mercies are over all His works.

Ps. 150:6 ”“
Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord!