The Church Will Face Tribulation by Zac Poonen

I lean /// toward the church will be here during the tribulation but the Lord "told me", yes I asked and He told me to not to teach pre, post, mid trub but to teach the women inmates "... to be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will." (Matt 24:44)

Everyone so far has gone and is going the way of the grave. When they die instantly in a car wreck, or die of a sickness or literally just drop dead like my brother in law did. Are they READY?

This is the need of the hour, teaching people to be ready.

God bless,
Lisa

"...this view clearly opposes the "pre-tribulation" rapture mentality, a mentality that sees the Church as being removed before the tribulation. Nothing, in our opinion, has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship, maturity and of being the Church that can stand in the Last Days and overcome tribulation, than the misguided confidence that they will not have to face it!" (Art Katz)

Hi All,
Again ...Everybody Post Pan and Pre Trib believers believe and Know in practice(by living) that we face trials and tribulations in this life but this does not mean we go through a specific period of time called "The Great Tribulation"
Its poor exegesis .Why do people use this poor exegesis?
Well its because they are so anti the pre trib view.I consider it a slur on Pre Trib believers to a certain extent.
If you want to argue the end times timeline whether you are pre or post then you have to use scripture thats in context and linking tribulation with the Great Tribulation is clearly not in context,
urs staff

Staff, don't want to argue the merit of the doctrine with my post. I will say this though because it is important for people to know. IF the pretrib rapture position is not true and it has caused God's people not to be prepared, ready for and for armed by being forewarned of the unprecedented release of evil upon the church in unprecedented degree, then it is a dangerous position. IF the pretrib position is true, then those of us who disagree with it will just be wrong. There is a huge difference therefore, that warrants those who hold to the pretrib position to be very sure of what they are saying and its obvious consequence to others if they are wrong. I don't say this in anger in the least. This is just a doctrine that deserves and demands extreme caution and certainty.

Perhaps some would argue that we should prepare people as if the great trib is possible for believers and hope with a degree of confidence that it isn't going to happen for believers based on a foundation of interpretation that is strongly held. That would seem prudent, good for the body and wise if you hold strongly to your position.

Hi CofG,
Well I dont want to argue the merits of my view either but rather just the double standards when it comes to exegesis.

Their are many ways to argue for the Post trib view but saying that because we have trials and tribulations in our lives means we go through the Great Tribulation.This is clearly poor exegesis and a swipe at the Pre Trib believer.This is clearly not a prudent exegesis.

As for your points

I can say the same for the Post Tribulation message as you have said for the Pre trib message.
If it is wrong then it also has consequences equally as bad as if the Pre Trib message is wrong.
It is however the Post Trib believer that always seems to bring up this arguement that if we have trials and tribulations in this life then we go through the Great Tribulation and also its the Post Trib believer who takes a swipe at the Pre Trib believer as regard to the Pre Trib believer not believing we go through trials and tribulations.All my friends are pre trib and they certainly know that we go through trials and tribulations,
The problem with the Post Trib view is that they think their are no consequences if they are wrong
urs staff

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31)

I'm thinking the timing of Christ's return was not an issue of controversy and division in the early church. They were united on many things, and the return of Christ was one of them. The belief of more than one appearance by Christ at the time of the end only appeared in the 1830s. Now, in many quarters, it seems that the utter simplicity of what scripture declares on this issue offends or stumbles many for some reason. It's almost as if they are saying, "It can't be that simple. After all, this is eschatology, therefore you can't know anything for sure or form any firm conclusions. It's all too complicated and not meant to be understood." But thanks be to the Lord, regarding His Son's second coming, He has spoken clearly and simply. Christ comes again AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days (those days of the final tribulation). There, it's done. What is to debate or question? If He comes after the tribulation, then His saints will obviously be present during this time. He comes again AFTER the final tribulation. Clear, simple, straightforward. I'm not tooting my own trumpet as if to appear smarter or more informed than other saints. I'm just taking scripture's clear and uncomplicated revelation on the issue. It's a grief that how many times Christ will appear and when He returns is one of the major issues of division in the modern church. I can only point to scripture. It settles the issue in a most simple easy to understand manner.

Hi Just to refute these points

The below argument is not an argument from Scripture and is just hearsay.
(The belief of more than one appearance by Christ at the time of the end only appeared in the 1830s.)

The debate is clearly not that simple

Jesus said that his coming will be like the days of Noah and Lot
Eating drinking planting marrying(not in Lot example)building marrying giving in marriage etc

UNTIL THE DAY

How can their be eating and drinking and building and planting if their is a Great Tribulation and Gods Wrath been poured out?
The only way Christ can come into a situation of normality is prior to the Great Tribulation and then he comes after a situation of chaos the again.
Christ comes 3 times in total
1 At when he was crucified
2 Prior to the Tribulation (until the day)
3 After the Tribulation of those days

(He has spoken clearly and simply. Christ comes again AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days (those days of the final tribulation). There, it's done)

The only way Christ can come only after the Tribulation is if the Great Tribulation is a nothing to see here event that has little or no effect on the earth,
urs staff

Hi
Just to say also that I as all Pre Trib believers I know believe that we have tribulation in this life,
urs staff

For clarity's sake, I've never met a post-trib believer who thinks or teaches that pre-trib believers do not believe in tribulation in this life. They know that they do.

Nor have I met a post-trib believer who thinks that because we endure tribulation in this life that this automatically means they will go through the age ending Great Tribulation. Post-trib believers know very well there is a notable difference between the tribulation we all endure now and the final time of intense unprecedented tribulation after which Christ returns.

Thank you.

Hi docs,

I'm thinking the timing of Christ's return was not an issue of controversy and division in the early church. They were united on many things, and the return of Christ was one of them.

If someone was to read about the life of Polycarp, a leader of the church of Smyrna who had been discipled by the apostle John (the beloved...and writer of the Revelation), we see that within a few decades of John's death, there were already disputes over some of the most basic teachings of the church.

When you read theologians approach Polycarp and some of the other early church leaders, they often approach it from the vantage point of nearly two thousand years of sectarian ideals.

Polycarp (who was born in 69 A.D.) traveled to Rome to meet with a leader of the church of Rome (Anicetus). Modern theologians often claim that they met to try and settle a dispute about celebrating what is now called "Easter." This is based upon a division in the church regarding the date in which the believers in Rome would celebrate the Lord's Supper.

Yet, in the texts, it becomes clear that this had nothing to do with "Easter" but a celebration of what many call "communion." Simply put: Anicetus practiced celebrating the Lord's Supper on the SUNDAY following the Passover.

Yet, Polycarp explained that the practice in Asia -- as handed down to them by John and others who walked with the Lord -- was on 14 Nisan (the 14th day of the Jewish month of Nisan -- and the day in which the people "put away the leaven"). This corresponded to the Passover and the night-and-day in which Jesus was betrayed and crucified.

In other words, Polycarp was stating that the "Lord's Supper" or "communion" was essentially a Passover seder with the added revelation that Jesus was the Passover Lamb. Thus, the breaking of the bread and drinking of the wine was celebrating his death. This coincides with what Paul wrote in I Corinthians 11:26 ("For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim THE LORD'S DEATH until he comes").

Ultimately, the meeting between Polycarp and Anicetus went well despite not really coming to a conclusion on a specific date to celebrate the Lord's supper. Instead, they simply celebrated the "Lord's Supper" together -- remembering His death -- DESPITE it neither being 14 Nisan or the Sunday following it. This, again, corresponds with Paul's point about "special days" in his epistle to the Galatians.

Unfortunately, as a few decades passed, unsettled conjecture turned into assumptions. Those assumptions turned into traditions. And, sadly, traditions turned into dogma. This was the beginning of the apostacy of the Roman church.

Eventually, another leader in Rome, Victor, became dogmatic about not only traditions of the "Lord's Supper" and its dating but how it related to his authority. In fact, he attempted to excommunicate anyone who disagreed with his dogmatic demands. Polycrates, a student of Polycarp, replied with a firm rejection of Victor's demand. Polycrates cited the practice of everyone from the apostle Philip (and his daughters), John, Polycarp and other eyewitnesses of Jesus and the apostles who celebrated the Lord's Supper on 14 Nisan (i.e., "the day when people put away the leaven").

Victor was infuriated at someone who would challenge his supposed "authority" and demanded that Polycrates and anyone else who rejected that dogmatic demand be excommunicated. At this point, another church leader, Irenaeus (also from Smyrna but working in the church in Lyon), opposed Victor by defending Polycrates and others who celebrated the Lord's Supper on 14 Nisan (by this time, they were labeled "Quartodecimans" -- "Fourteeners"). Irenaeus argued that Victor was attempting to excommunicate believers and leaders in Asia and elsewhere for essentially following the practice of the apostles and other eyewitnesses.

So, Victor of Rome failed. Yet, years later, it became a big issue when Constantine effectively excommunicated anyone who practiced anything aside from the dogmatic traditions of Rome. Hence, the Roman dogmatic apostacy -- born out of assumptions that turned into traditions -- was complete.

What does this have to do with the coming of the Lord or tribulation?

Well, for one, I do take issue with any claim that the "church" was united behind a specific dogmatic view of Christ's return. You've repeated a claim about the rapture having "only appeared" in the 1830s. Yet, we don't have a whole lot of writings of Christians throughout the ages to know specifically what they believed, taught and instructed. Yes, the Roman Catholic Church was meticulous with such matters; but, it was apostacy born out of tradition that guided much of its dogma.

Moreover, even post-reformation protestant churches embraced practices that are generally regarded as unbiblical -- such as the baptism of babies. This practice isn't found in Scripture. It isn't even found in the earliest writings of the church (and, rather, to the contrary, we find warning against baptizing children and youth). So, the lack of "written in stone" (or on papyrus) doesn't necessarily equate to something being wrong.

Yet, in fact, one of the early church writers that I've mentioned DID seem to indicate a belief in a "gathering" of the church before the coming "great" tribulation. Irenaeus of Smyrna was born around 130 A.D. He was also a friend of Polycrates (also born around 130 A.D. -- and related to seven other church overseers). Irenaeus even knew and listened to Polycarp (born in 69 A.D.). Polycarp was a disciple of the apostle John. Polycarp also knew, listened to and interacted with "other apostles" as well as other eyewitnesses of Jesus. That's quite a pedigree!

So, Irenaeus, a church overseer who defended Polycrates from excommunication by Victor of Rome, wrote his own letters to believers. They are now called "Against Heresies" and contain clarifications because various churches -- particularly those around Rome -- were rejecting truth and turning toward dishonest dogmatic positions that were rapidly becoming "traditions." In this letter against heresies, Irenaeus wrote about being "changed" and the Lord's return.

Irenaeus wrote about our physical transformation from mortality/flesh to immortality/spirit:

"For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up. For by means of the very same hands through which they were molded at the beginning, did they receive this translation and assumption…. Wherefore also the elders who were disciples of the apostles tell us that those who were translated were transferred to that place (for paradise has been prepared for righteous men, such as have the Spirit; in which place also Paul the apostle, when he was caught up, heard words which are unspeakable as regards us in our present condition), and that there shall they who have been translated remain until the consummation [of all things], as a prelude to immortality." - "Against Heresies," Book 5 Chapter 5

Later in Book 5, he wrote, "And therefore, when in the end THE CHURCH SHALL BE SUDDENLY CAUGHT UP FROM THIS, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." - "Against Heresies," Book 5 Chapter 29

While the term "rapture" wasn't used, the term "CAUGHT UP" is -- and it is tied in this context with "suddenly" changing from mortality to immortality prior to the period of the "great tribulation." In fact, I have never really cared for the term "rapture" but, rather, the notion of "gathering" or "catching up." That is, this is the concept that Jesus would gather his Bride before the period God pours his wrath upon the entire Earth.

If we are going to dive back into the 1830s, then we also need to go back to 174 A.D. too -- more than 1,650 years earlier (and within the same century that the apostle John died). I think that it is interesting that Irenaeus knew the men who knew John (who wrote the Book of Revelation).

In fact, Irenaeus (in the very same context of his work) actually offers his own thoughts on John's Revelation in the same letter! He equates the "666" in Revelation 13 (i.e., the calculated number of the beast's name) as a number that symbolizes the 600 years of Noah's life -- when the world was in such darkness that God would destroy it -- with the height and breadth of the image set up by Nebuchadnezzar (60 cubits high and 6 cubits wide).

Moreover, interestingly enough, Irenaeus is the earliest writer (outside of the Essenes) who equated the end of this world in the 6,000th year at whence Christ would physically return to the Earth and begin a thousand-year reign. That would result in quite a bit of waiting from what was roughly the 4000th year since Adam (depending if you used the Babylonian Judaic, Essene or other Biblical calendars).

I've written all of this to say that I don't think that it is necessary to take a dogmatic position on the very specific nature and timeline by which the Lord will return. While I believe that the return of the Lord is imminent (and physical), I also am aware that I don't know the specific manner by which this will all happen. I lean toward a "catching away" or "gathering" of the Bride before God pours out His wrath on the whole world. Yet, I'm entirely aware of the possibility that this won't happen.

Over the decades on SermonIndex, I've studied this topic over and over again. When I used to state that I wasn't entirely certain, some of the brethren would see that as a cop out of sorts -- trying to achieve a middle ground or use less diligence in studying this topic. This couldn't be further from the truth! I have studied this topic with all earnestness. Yet, despite it all, my position just hasn't changed too much from what it was as a college student in 2003. I'm still studying it intently and with all earnestness. However, I'm not entirely convinced. Moreover, I don't think that my salvation is dependent upon being entirely convinced of a specific timeline or set of events. Rather, like John, I still say "Even so, come Lord Jesus!" I long to see his face.

By the way, in terms of the actual message by brother Zac Poonen, I should point out that earthly tribulation is relatively agreed upon by all eschatological circles. It was something that Jesus promised we would face (i.e., "In this world, you WILL have tribulation...").

The individuals mentioned earlier all died -- many in terrible ways. It's written that Polycarp of Smyrna, at a very old age, was burned alive for refusing to burn incense to the Emperor (at which he scoffed the very idea of such idolatry). As he didn't burn (or burn quickly enough), he was pierced by a spear and shed so much blood that it was stated that it put out the fire.

As Polycarp was the leader of the Church of Smyrna after the time of John, it gives me pause when I read the letter to the Church of Smyrna in Revelation 2: "Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life" (Revelation 2:10-11).

In fact, Polycarp mentioned the dedication to the Lord of various believers who suffered with the Lord and were put to death. He mentions Paul and a few others -- including Rufus (who was mentioned in Paul's epistle to the Romans and was possibly the son of Simon of Cyrene per Romans 16:13 and Mark 15:21).

We should all be willing to suffer for the sake of Christ. Whether we live and die prior to the Lord's return (like everyone else before us) or if we are blessed to see His return, we should be willing to suffer (and God will give us grace through it all).

I apologize for such a lengthy response. I actually started to write a response a couple of days ago before simply discarding my attempt. I just feel that we should be clear when we believe that the concept of a "catching away" is a relatively modern invention. The claim is repeated often in books, websites and sermons. Yet, it's not necessarily true. More importantly, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is untrue either.

We can all agree that there are many long-held traditions -- some ancient and others much newer -- that just aren't biblically sound. Yet, those traditions often have a way of becoming dogma on the basis of the tradition rather than the veracity of Scriptural soundness. So, we're really left with Scripture as the primary source for essential truths of the faith.

A desire for Scriptural soundness while maintaining true love and unity among the brethren is what makes our faith simple, childlike and pure. Moreover, the knowledge of the Lord's return -- no matter how we think it might specifically come about -- should motivate us to make the most of the opportunity rather than burying our talent in the earth.

/I've written all of this to say that I don't think that it is necessary to take a dogmatic position on the very specific nature and timeline by which the Lord will return./

All I can do is direct you to scripture where Jesus was clearly dogmatic and sure of what He said as He forecast the specific nature and timeline by which He would return. From His own mouth, it's not complicated at all. Simple, straight and clear.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31)

Hi docs!

/I've written all of this to say that I don't think that it is necessary to take a dogmatic position on the very specific nature and timeline by which the Lord will return./

Even if someone believes in a gathering or "catching away" of the Church prior to the period when God pours out his wrath upon the entire world, the truth is that such believers acknowledge that they will face tribulation in this world AND also believe in a coming of the Lord AFTER the period of great tribulation.

Such a view is not seen as contradictory of the Scriptures as it is believed that the Lord will gather His Bride before the period of God's wrath and then return (physically) to the Earth to reign for a thousand years.

There are some who adamantly claim that this is a modern invention from the 1830s. As Irenaeus of Smyrna's writing shows, this isn't necessarily the case. Moreover, it doesn't contradict the Scriptures that you cited either.

And, of course, Jesus was dogmatic is the very timing of his return. We can embrace what he said without having to create some sort of dogmatic timeline that results in debates and disputes or individuals citing the 1830s while ignoring the writing of someone else in the Church who actually knew those who knew the apostle John.

I know the NT was written "for our instruction" even today. But if you look at the way Paul, Peter, Jude, etc. wrote, they all had the attitude in their writings that those who received their letters should be living as if He is coming back in their very generation and they were not just pontificating. They actually wrote with such urgency that they themselves had some real expectation of his soon return. That is the point that Jesus made to his apostles when he warned them in Matthew that they should be doing what He told them and that He had better find them doing what HE commanded them to do with the apostolic ministry He gave them, do when he returns or else, implying that His return very well would be during their lifetime. There is no escaping this attitude in the Gospels or other writings. Paul was even telling people not to get married as Christ's final return was right around the corner. (1 Cor. 7).

Given this, any eschatology that embraces a return distant or one delayed generations into the future is contrary to and very inconsistent what the NT writers thought or advocated in their lives or writings. Immediacy was their attitude. They thought and lived as if they were actually and literally in the last moments of the last days and therefore, they needed to be completely ready as the people of God corporately. There was no attitude that He would be delayed or that they should just live as if their own personal lives might end at any moment. While that is true of course, they advocated for corporate preparation of the bride for His soon arrival and final judgment where He would take Her to the place prepared for her.

That should be our attitude as that is how they and the Holy Spirit told us to think and live. Get the bride ready was the work of the apostolic team(s) and the NT writers. That is unmistakeable in the NT and was the call of the watchmen.

Because HE has tarryed, it has given many an opportunity to turn the NT into a collection of proverbs and doctrines for good living instead of a mnaifesto of a last days church anxious and preparing for His soon return. The NT is primarily a last of the last days guide for living and making the most of the last days moments and opportunities to prepare a people for Himself and not a guidebook of proverbs dictating wise sayings for moral living in this life.

Hi Docs
ZAC POONEN DOES
Nor have I met a post-trib believer who thinks that because we endure tribulation in this life that this automatically means they will go through the age ending Great Tribulation. Post-trib believers know very well there is a notable difference between the tribulation we all endure now and the final time of intense unprecedented tribulation after which Christ returns.
Ur staff

Hi Docs
Isnt this Just as SIMPLE STRAIGHT AND CLEAR ALSO(except you ignore it)?
Jesus said that his coming will be like the days of Noah and Lot
Eating drinking planting marrying(not in Lot example)building marrying giving in marriage etc

UNTIL THE DAY

How can their be eating and drinking and building and planting if their is a Great Tribulation and Gods Wrath been poured out?
The only way Christ can come into a situation of normality is prior to the Great Tribulation and then he comes after a situation of chaos the again.
Christ comes 3 times in total
1 At when he was crucified
2 Prior to the Tribulation (until the day)
3 After the Tribulation of those days
(He has spoken clearly and simply. Christ comes again AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days (those days of the final tribulation). There, it's done)

The only way Christ can come only after the Tribulation is if the Great Tribulation is a nothing to see here event that has little or no effect on the earth,
urs staff

(All I can do is direct you to scripture where Jesus was clearly dogmatic and sure of what He said as He forecast the specific nature and timeline by which He would return. From His own mouth, it's not complicated at all. Simple, straight and clear)

Hi Docs,
May I add that Lysa immediately after reading the original Zac Poonen post commented and clearly thought their was a relation of Tribulation and Persecustion to The Great Tribulation .Which is Lysa's right of course.
Also every debate about the Great Tribulation on SI has mentioned regular persecution and tribulation as an evidence of Post Tribulation ,
urs staff
p.s
What extrodinary tribulation did Art Katz go through in this life??
wiki Art Katz
Except for a sabbatical from late 1985 to early 1987, Katz lived at Ben Israel (when he wasn't ministering worldwide) until his death in 2007 and hosted a summer-long "prophet school" where people from around the world would come, live together in a communal setting and learn from Katz and others about the prophetic life

Deleted. Just thought better of the post.

Blessings.

Ya all are wrong,
Weasley and Edwards was right , post millennial all the way .😀👏✝️

I know these are a lot of links but over the last 5 months Joel Richardson has discussed in detail what exactly the Early Church writers wrote. Whoever is interested, please listen.

What Did the Early Church Believe about the Rapture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGQWG_cGTRQ

The Shepherd of Hermas Refuting False Claims of Pretribbers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFgeMGqcTsQ

Irenaeus: Refuting the Claims of Pretribbers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWQMwnsOLMk

Victorinus: Refuting the False Claims of Pretribbers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q-T4rrMjvk&t=1879s

Eusebius: Refuting the False Claims of Pretribulationists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVI-1K6xEZ0

Refuting the Claims of Pretribbers-Pseudo Ephraim
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8NwfGOxhXQ

Pseudo Ephraim Escape by Rapture or by Hiding
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ca5DyqUK1Y&t=129s

Refuting Lee Brainard's False Claims of Pre Tribulation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QdECslYoHo

The Rapture and Great Tribulation in 4 Ezra and 1 Enoch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0saKFVBv6x8

staff wrote:
May I add that Lysa immediately after reading the original Zac Poonen post commented and clearly thought their was a relation of Tribulation and Persecustion to The Great Tribulation .Which is Lysa's right of course.

My post:
I lean /// toward the church will be here during the tribulation but the Lord "told me", yes I asked and He told me to not to teach pre, post, mid trib but to teach the women inmates "... to be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will." (Matt 24:44)

Everyone so far has gone and is going the way of the grave. When they die instantly in a car wreck, or die of a sickness or literally just drop dead like my brother in law did. Are they READY?

This is the need of the hour, teaching people to be ready.

God bless,
Lisa

God bless,
Lisa

Hi Lysa,
Its just that you commented on The Great Tribulation after reading the Zac Poonen sermon,so you must have thought they were linked to each other,urs staff

From Staff
Hi Lysa,
Its just that you commented on The Great Tribulation after reading the Zac Poonen sermon,so you must have thought they were linked to each other,urs staff

God bless you!!!
Lisa

Hi Lysa,

Thank you for the links. I think that I have watched some of these videos before -- among many others that don't believe in a pre-trib "catching away." I'll look over them -- although some of the titles are a bit perplexing (i.e., "false claims").

This is why I mentioned people who are "dogmatic" about certain issues that aren't absolutely clear from Scripture. I appreciate it when people aren't willing to declare something to be "incontrovertibly true" if they aren't entirely (i.e., 100%) certain themselves.

I've interacted with people who have gone from being pre-trib to post-trib. I've interacted with people who have gone the other way (from post to pre). I've sometimes been surprised when such individuals are exceptionally dogmatic about such topics -- particularly as if they forgot their own journey from one view to another.

If the Scriptures were undeniably clear about the entire timeline of the Lord's return, then I would joyfully accept it with all grace. However, I've studied this over and over again -- listening even to those who would dogmatically teach one way over another. Yet, despite this, I have not arrived to a point where I am absolutely certain on it.

In fact, I feel content that it ultimately doesn't affect my relationship with the Lord. I certainly would like to know how it will all come about. However, even in Revelation and Ezekiel, there are parts that just aren't truly necessary for us to know until, perhaps, when the timing is right. It's reminds me of the "seven thunders" in Revelation chapter 10.

Even Irenaeus (mentioned earlier) said something of this sorts in his writings against heresies. He essentially pointed this out when discussing the danger of trying to calculate the number of the name of the beast and proclaim a potential candidate.

Now, I hope that it would be obvious that I am not equating the writings of Irenaeus, Polycarp or others with the Scripture. They are flawed men with writings that are certainly not Scripture (and they said as much too). However, I did point out Irenaeus because of some of the things he wrote (possibly regarding a "catching away" before the time of God's wrath) not too long after the death of the apostle John. However, I am also aware that he is just a man.

I do think that there are parts of eschatology that are either clear or very widely accepted. We see the Lord's return as imminent. We see the return of the Lord to the Earth to rule and reign. We must be watchful.

And, of course, bringing this back to Brother Zac Poonen's message in the original post: We will have tribulation in this world. We must be steadfast and patient through tribulation. This is wise in earthly tribulation as well as any tribulation that we might encounter. In good times or in bad, our prayer should always be "Come, Lord Jesus."

I’m pretty solidly no-Trib, but I must say that Staff’s argument about things being pretty normal at Christ’s return is a good one if applied to the rapture.

Personally I think it applies to the horrors of the Roman siege and destruction of Jerusalem (and the Jewish temple worship) in 70 AD. Make no mistake- it was Jesus who came in judgment on the clouds at that time.

I tend to see it fit as you describe it -
That’s why they wrote about the "end” that was soon to come… it did in 70AD-
yet much like how John the Baptist mistook the timeline of events that must come to pass as being far more condensed than it actually was, perhaps that was also true of the NT writers or even more so, perhaps we are reading into the text something they didn’t intend to be applied. The reason I consider this is due to the fact we are 2000yrs out from the time it was pinned to paper. While the scriptures are timeless in their value and application, they are nonetheless written from a local perspective, informed by their local experience.
These topics were not of particular concern as they were facing literal extermination on a daily. From the texts their concern was advancing the kingdom, as such it would not be a stretch to consider they imagined the total fulfillment to occur in 70AD and wrote from that particular perspective…

In either case, 2 Thess 2 makes a t clear that this day, return of Christ, can’t come until first the great apostasy occurs and the man of sin, son of perdition (AC) is revealed- while it could be argued that is being fulfilled presently, the anti-Christ has yet to be revealed,… unless I’ve missed it 🤷🏽”â™‚️

This did not happen in 70AD

Mat 24:29 - "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

24:30 - "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

24:31 - "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET BLAST, and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His [fn]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Thus the tribulation referred to just prior to these verses cannot have happened unless I don’t properly understand the words "immediately after”.

What you do not understand is apocalyptic language.

See Is. 13

I only know a few languages from the East. I’ll try to find a course. :)

I was able to locate a course in apocalyptic language online offered by Gnostic Universoty if anyone has interest.

luke 21 1Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!”

2And Jesus answered and said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

3Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 4"Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

5And Jesus, answering them, began to say: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 6For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many. 7But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled; for such things must happen, but the end is not yet. 8For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines [a]and troubles. These are the beginnings of [b]sorrows.

9"But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will [c]be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them. 10And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. 11But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, [d]or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 13And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who [e]endures to the end shall be saved.

14"So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ [f]spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

21"Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the [g]elect. 23But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

24"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

If we let the contextual flow on these passages speak for themselves, we see Jesus literally speaking about the destruction of the temple which is connected to the end of the age of the old covenant.

verses 6 and 7 in Luke 21 are tied together to create the context for the rest of the chapter.

Verse three the apostles ask a simple question When will these things be.

An in verse 5 onwards Jesus answers the question and if we look at the other verses in the Bible we see that this is the great tribulation.

For historical context we look at verse 9 and he's literally talking to his disciples about being beaten up in the synagogues which is what happened not long after Jesus spoke his prophecy and to be honest we can't apply this to the Gentiles today who never go in synagogues or get taken into synagogue.

Inverse 14 many people would connect the abomination of desolation with the Antichrist or the man of sin and this is clearly happened around the time of the destruction of the temple.

In verse 21 to. 23 we see the false prophets and false messiah who arose in the first century When we look at the historian's writings from Josephus and other's we clearly see this is taking place with false Christs and prophets and the unimaginable apostasy of the false Christianity called gnosticism. Apostle Paul was clearly teaching about these coming days which were fulfilled.

Verse 24 connected with the same contextual flow Calls this the tribulation and then Jesus talks about the coming judgment and the end of the age of Moses. Three separate historians spoke of this time and that chariots and armies were seen in the clouds. The Old Testament the same language is used for the coming of judgment upon Israel at a different time period

One Thing we can be sure of is nowhere does the contextual flow of this chapter allow for a futuristic interpretation of these verses..

So the idea that comes from reading Luke, Mark and Matthew within this context is that the first resurrection is not a fleshly resurrection. But that resurrection comes at the end of this age with the great white throne judgment and the handing of the millennial kingdom over to the Father. Where death is finally defeated and the merging of the heavens and the earth take place. 😊👋✝️🙏☝️💜

Yes I agree with you that there are many prophecies that didn’t occur before, during or immediately after the fall of Jerusalem- which is my point-
Yet there is no other rendering for Luke 21 where the fall is clearly prophesied by Jesus Himself 🤷🏽”â™‚️
So again, if we consider the possibility that, following after the pattern of John the Baptist, that there is an obvious opportunity to see both being true simultaneously- Much like how Jesus prophesied about the destruction of the temple and rebuilding of it in 3 days, was actually about Himself, and tho they could not have begun to consider that in any meaningful way, yet it was not only true but also true that the physical/literal temple was also destroyed… so it was true both ways you interpreted it. Or as commonly referred to, duel fulfillment-

Notice the margin Jesus inserts in Luke 21:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, ((((until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.))))

….then when that has occurred we get

The Return of Christ
(Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27”Š)
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
(Matt. 24:32-35; Mark 13:28-31”Š)

It isn’t out of the question that both are true at different times just as it was with the crucifixion and later 70AD -

If anyone is interested in a three three-session sermon related to a similar view. Though I don't agree with every point he makes an exceptional defense regarding a first-century fulfillment of the revelations and the gospel prophecies. Dr Lynne hiles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47nyeu0s61M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4O50BCYcxQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Jhm4-0I-G4

Hi Todd (and others),

While I do think that the words spoken by Jesus partially concerned the destruction of the Temple (and its fulfillment in 70 A.D. -- 40 years following the crucifixion and resurrection of the Lord), I do agree with Fletcher's point about simultaneity too.

There are prophecies in the Old Testament that seemingly refer to something in the past as well as something in the future. They could be one of those "types" and "shadows" found in Scripture.

As Paul wrote in Colossians: "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ" (Colossians 2:16-17).

"LET THE READER UNDERSTAND"

This phrase appears in two of the Gospels (Matthew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14) pertaining to this message from the Lord regarding future events. They both specify the same event (although Matthew includes one more referential phrase spoken by the Lord for clarity):

"So when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." Matthew 24:15-16 (ESV)

Here, we read this reference of the "abomination of desolation" (or, as Mark words it, the "abomination that CAUSES desolation"). Matthew includes the reference to the prophet Daniel. This is from Daniel 9:27, 11:31, and 12:11.

Many scholars -- as well as early Jewish rabbis and writers -- point to this specific "abomination" prophesied of by Daniel as referring to ANTIOCHUS IV EPIPHANES. He was the Greek emperor in 167 B.C. who marched into Jerusalem and slaughtered tens of thousands (including women and children) before going into the Temple and sacrificing a pig. He rededicated the Temple to a false god (likely Zeus or Baal-Shamin being identified as the same).

Yet, in the context of what Jesus was telling his disciples, he was referring to a FUTURE event.

Like you have said, it was likely referring to the events of 70 A.D. -- just 40 years after the Lord's sacrificial death and resurrection. During that time, there was a Jewish revolt against Roman occupation. Romans marched into Israel and began quelling that revolt. It eventually led to Titus (the future Roman emperor) breaking through the walls of Jerusalem and devastating the city (burning much of it) and utterly destroying the Temple. Most of the remaining treasure were carried off to Rome.

The "Arch of Titus" was erected just 11 years later in Rome (in 81 A.D.). On the arch's side, sculptures depict the Roman soldiers returning with the spoils plundered from the Temple (including one of the earliest depictions of the Temple's menorah, trumpets and Table of Showbread).

So, yes, it seems like this phrase from Daniel about an "abomination of desolation" and spoken by Jesus can refer to Antiochus Epiphanes (in 167 B.C.) as well as Titus (70 A.D.).

Yet, what if it doesn't just mean these two men?

What if it also refers to an individual -- the Antichrist -- mentioned in Revelation. After all, John had this revelation more than 60 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus and around 25-35 years after the destruction of the Temple. The same term -- abomination -- is used to describe "Babylon" in Revelation 17.

Obviously, the Babylon mentioned in Revelation (as well as I Peter) wasn't the old city-kingdom of Babylon. It was seemingly referring to Rome -- the "city of seven hills" (likely referred to in Revelation 17:9). Yet, even in this passage of Revelation, the term about the "seven heads" refers to both the location of the city (again, likely meaning Rome) AND ALSO the kings who ruled from it (see Revelation 17:10).

It's interesting to me that this goes back to the prophet Daniel -- who interpreted the dream of the statue for Nebuchadnezzar. That statue included the empires of Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. Perhaps the "abomination that causes desolation" could refer to all of those who would attempt to conquer and subjugate Jerusalem and/or God's people? It might make sense as we consider the events mentioned in Revelation too -- as armies are seen ready to attack Jerusalem.

I've often pondered if the "partly iron, partly clay" toes at the base of that statue might represent the final "empire" -- one that is somehow both iron and clay (possibly referring to governments of the people). Of course, this is just conjecture too. All of the empires mentioned by Daniel conquered and subjugated Jerusalem and the Temple.

Still, I believe that it is worth noting that a single prophecy -- like the one spoken of by Daniel and cited by Jesus in the Gospels -- can simultaneously refer to more than one instance, event or person. Is this a possibility that you would consider?

My understanding is different, will try and keep it short and simple:
I believe we have discussed this so many times that we can't see the wood for the trees anymore
We quote other Christians, post links, refer to well know teachers etc.
By this we are missing some basic teachings from Scripture, like the goodness of God and the severity of God or blessings and judgement.

Just one example from Scripture
Israel had the Promised Land with milk and honey
Later on the Northern and Southern Kingdoms experienced God's judgement.
Jeremiah tried to warn Judea, without success.

I believe we are no better than them, we turned our backs on God.
We are facing the same judgement.
Most western countries have open borders, the "Assyriens" and "Babyloniens" have been invading us for a long time.
New laws will make us more and more "captives"

The Church will have to endure a lot of heat to be purified, to become a "glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish"(from Eph 5:27)

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.(Proverbs 9:10)

Markus

The end part of the Olivet Discourse may pertain to the Second Coming but it may not. I certainly believe in a yet future Second Coming. But the reason folks say that the last part of the OD cannot be about 70 Ad is because of the imagery- the Son coming on the clouds and various astronomical phenomenon.

My point about apocalyptic language is that OT writers used very similar imagery( see below). We don’t take those literally. So there is no *necessity* that this portion of the OD be yet future. Besides, as Gary pointed out, there *were* signs in the heavens during the destruction of Jerusalem.
””””-

The LORD of hosts is mustering
a host for battle.
5 They come from a distant land,
from the end of the heavens,
the LORD and the weapons of his indignation,
to destroy the whole land.fn
6 ¶ Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
as destruction from the Almightyfn it will come!
7 Therefore all hands will be feeble,
and every human heart will melt.
8 They will be dismayed:
pangs and agony will seize them;
they will be in anguish like a woman in labor.
They will look aghast at one another;
their faces will be aflame.
9 ¶ Behold, the day of the LORD comes,
cruel, with wrath and fierce anger,
to make the land a desolation
and to destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations
will not give their light;
the sun will be dark at its rising,
and the moon will not shed its light. Isaiah 13

An oracle concerning Egypt.
Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud
and comes to Egypt;
and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence,
and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. Is. 19:1

As in many examples from the OT, the fruition of prophesies in the end times will be the fullest realities of what occurred temporally in the OT. It happened over and over. For example, There was a real Emmanuel born in the time of Isaiah but it was a foreshadowing of the coming Messiah. This is most likely true with the judgment on Israel in 70AD. Makes sense given Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem. The only reason I engage in these debates which will have no resolution ultimately is because I truly want my brothers and sisters to be ready if indeed we have to get through a great and final tribulation. It is a family responsibility to see to it that the whole family conquers, overcomes, endures and makes it to the finish line of our race. The family has a responsibility to get us all ready for Him, not just securely but also worthily. I hope and pray that all these debates and strivings are to this end.

/This is why I mentioned people who are "dogmatic" about certain issues that aren't absolutely clear from Scripture./

/If the Scriptures were undeniably clear about the entire timeline of the Lord's return, then I would joyfully accept it with all grace./

How clear could Christ have been? After the events of the final tribulation of this age have transpired, then He comes again.

Question: Why would God purposefully make the subject of the timing of His Son's return difficult and unclear? What purpose would that serve? Why would He vex and confuse the saints in such a manner? In keeping, there is an aspect and practice in the modern study of eschatology that assumes from the get go that the timing of the second coming is veiled in mystery and nothing certain can be ascertained fron scripture. Therefore, people balk and turn away from
the uncomplicatedpassages like Matthew 24:29-31.

Good bro, I'm for sured not trying to be a smart aleck or know it all. I'm just pointing to Jesus' own words. But again, my question is, how clear and uncomplicated could Christ have been? It seems impossible to read this passage and state things like, "If only scripture were clear." It's a very curious phenomenon when this happen in my opinion. Meanwhile, the answer you can accept with all grace is right there looking at you and all of us. And it was Jesus who stated it.

Blessings good man.

Amen to that Robert.

Hi David (docs),

How clear could Christ have been? After the events of the final tribulation of this age have transpired, then He comes again.

That's a very viable question and point.

First of all, I would respond regarding clarity: Our Lord was VERY clear. He spoke precisely what he needed to. However, like the apostles and the parables that he spoke, they weren't understood by all at that time. This is because it wasn't really the right time for them to understand it.

I brought up some of the early church leaders and writings (such as Polycarp, Polycrates, Irenaeus, etc.) to point out that -- very early on -- there was already variance in opinion over certain matters that are clearly written in the Scriptures. And, to this day, people continue to debate the meaning of those words.

Like you, I am a believer saved by our Lord. Like you, I also prayerfully study his Word daily -- having studied it intently since passing from my old life to the new. The truths of God's Word that we've discovered are wonderful and life-changing. Despite this, there are still mysteries found within God's Word that aren't entirely clear (at least to all of us at this time).

In fact, the specific point that you wrote is not one of the things that many believers tend to debate: Those who do and do not believe in a "rapture" (or those who prefer to refer to it as a "catching away," "gathering," etc.) believe that many of the eschatological events spoken by the Lord regarding a final "great" tribulation will be followed by the Lord's coming again.

The debate, of course, is over the idea that God would "gather" or "catch away" his Bride prior to the period in which God pours out his wrath upon this entire world. This is perceived to be a separate thing from the Lord's return to this earth.

Obviously, this is the point in which the most disagreement arises. Given the wide array of views on this particular timeline and sequence, it would be difficult to assume that the many passages relating to eschatology are "clear" to all (in terms of an exact timeline of events that will take place). There are pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib and post-trib. As Todd and others have pointed out, there are other views that don't quite fit in these as well.

I mentioned the passage from Revelation 10 about the "seven thunders" (Revelation 10:2-4). John was hearing these things but instructed not to write them down. It just wasn't for us to hear and understand. Yet, what about things that WERE written by John? Even these are difficult to decipher. The meaning of the calculated number of the beast -- 666 -- is tied to the mark people would receive. Yet, that meaning requires "wisdom" (Revelation 13:18).

This is similar to the words found in Daniel: "But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase" (Daniel 12:4).

Question: Why would God purposefully make the subject of the timing of His Son's return difficult and unclear? What purpose would that serve? Why would He vex and confuse the saints in such a manner?

When I was a child, I lived in Virginia. Each summer, my parents would take me to spend the summer with my grandmother in a small village in the mountains of Eastern Pennsylvania. As a young boy, I didn't know the route from our house to my grandmother's. I didn't know how the car or the car's engine was engineered. I didn't even really understand or fully grasp the length of time for that journey (and my parents probably tired of me asking "Are we almost there yet?"). I did take notice of some of the things that my dad told me that I would see along the way (out my window during the drive) -- especially as we drew close to the journey's end. Yet, all that I really knew was the destination and who I would be spending my summer with. Everything else was a mystery -- and things that I didn't really spend much time concerning myself with.

Perhaps our understanding of eschatology and the route to the end is similar. We know that it's a journey and we know that the Lord will return. All of the specific things that will happen along this journey -- including the timetable and exact "route" of events -- are something of a mystery. There are points where we see and understand (often after we see them) things that were pointed out beforehand. Yet, all we can do is be led by the Spirit (which Jesus in John 3:7-8 described that we who are born of the Spirit are like the wind -- not knowing where it comes from or where it goes).

Brother, I certainly don't think that you (or anyone here) is a smart aleck or know-it-all. I also hope that I don't come across that way either. In fact, you might very well be correct in your specific view of end-time eschatology. I'm just not there yet. I've studied God's Word -- and this specific topic in God's Word -- quite a bit. I'm just not ready to make any conclusive declarations. The truth of it all is certainly there. I just wonder if it is within us to grasp every part of that journey and timeline -- or if it is really necessary for us to fully understand it in its entirety.

I think that the most important part of our journey is that the Spirit of God is with us through our journey in life. I know the change that has been made in my life after giving my life to the Lord. I also know that the end will result with the unspeakable joy of being present with the Lord. To live is Christ and to die is gain. As the old song goes, "Take this world and give me Jesus."

There are:

7 seals judgement(Revelation 6:1”“17; 8:1”“5),
7 trumpets judgement (Revelation 8:6”“9:21; 11:15”“19), and
7 seven bowls judgement (Revelation 16:1”“21) during great tribulation.

To Jacob it is said,  "Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it "(Jer 30:7).

"At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book" (Daniel 12:1). 

Matthew 24:21: For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

It is a time of great purification of Jacob, he will be purified through sweeping pain and violence, till finally the great revelation of their savior.

To the church of Philadelphia it is said,"Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth" (Rev 3:10).

To the rest of the earth, " For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev 6:17).

It seems clear from history that there was undoubtedly a first century fulfilment of the end of the age, even Paul said this generation was the generation to whom the ends of the ages had come.

Which was the end of the old covenant age and the beginning of the kingdom age the age of the spirit. And through out around the time of the Dark ages there also seems to be a type in a fulfilment in a spiritual application of a time of great tribulation and apostasy and the ruling of a beast system and an Antichrist figure that was current in every single generation.

I think the reformers we're on to something when they said the papal system with the pope being the Antichrist was a current reality. The principalities that where behind the Roman Empire of Nero and others continued under the papal rule, and darkness covered the Earth and deep darkness covered the people but the light of the glory of the Lord has begin to rise on his people the church again.

The age of famines wars pestilence that would continually wipe out much of the known world, with revival and the baptism of the holy spirit being suppressed for 1000 years of deep judgement upon the world where true blessing and liberty of the gospel was practically nonexistent.

Under the new covenant in the age of the spirit being that we are in the millennial reign now, the power of that PAPAL system was broken AND DAMAGED BY THE LATTER RAIN OUTPOURING OF THE Spirit and the Protestant reformation.

Jesus working his yeast and his salt and his light through the world by the church of the spirit and the proclamation of the gospel will eventually put many of the enemies under the footstool of Christ and under the feet of the church for the church is the body of Christ on the earth.

The post millennial visions of Jonathan Edwards and others was the very Powerhouse of the first and second great awakenings and we saw what the power of Jesus can do in the age of the spirit. And the final apostasy will be different in the millennial age it will be the battle of gog and magog, and will be focused around the Middle East around the chosen Jewish nation, they been gathered and are being back into their own land and will never be uprooted again. As the apostle Paul said they will be grafted back in to the spiritual Israel in this last great awakening which will bring Unity to The gentiles and the Jews. I recall John Wesley believing that the papasea will be weakened to such a point that the church would even go through revival and awakening.

He foresaw the great charismatic movement beginning even in that church with over 200 million claiming baptism of the spirit today and of the increase of Christ government there shall be no end it shall according to scripture be increasing and increasing with true revival and awakening. Until Christ comes back and the great white throne judgement and the defeating of death and the handing over the kingdom to the father takes place with the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

The Gates of hell shall not prevail against the church but the church shall prevail against the gates, the defence system of hell on this earth which has been taking place gradually since the reformation and the outpourings of the spirit and this will continue even amidst tribulation for in this world you will have tribulation.

But God has made a judgement in favour off his saints and they will be lights to the world and the salt of the Earth and shall go out and preserve the world for it shall be Jesus working through his saints as yeast through the dough.

, Matt 13 32. Although it is the smallest of all seeds, yet it grows into the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.” 33He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and mixed into three measures of flour, until all of it was leavened.” 34Jesus spoke all these things to the crowds in parables. He did not tell them anything without using a parable.

/First of all, I would respond regarding clarity: Our Lord was VERY clear. He spoke precisely what he needed to. However, like the apostles and the parables that he spoke, they weren't understood by all at that time. This is because it wasn't really the right time for them to understand it./

Laboring my point, that is exactly the phenomenon I am speaking of when it comes to eschatology. The scenario goes that Jesus decribed precisely when He would come again and what events would occur at that point, but it wasn't the right time for them to understand it! Then why did He explain it so clear that a child can understand it? Where does such reasoning come from? It certainly doesn't come from Jesus or the Scriptures. I still say there seems to be an unwritten unspoken rule that when it comes to eschatology and the last things one should veer away from God intended simplicity and see how complicated it can be made. Eschatology is the only field of Bible study treated in such a manner.

/In fact, the specific point that you wrote is not one of the things that many believers tend to debate: Those who do and do not believe in a "rapture" (or those who prefer to refer to it as a "catching away," "gathering," etc.) believe that many of the eschatological events spoken by the Lord regarding a final "great" tribulation will be followed by the Lord's coming again./

Can you cite any examples where Jesus spoke specifically of this "catching away" of His bride before He comes again? Where did He refer to it? Also, Jesus referred us to the book of Daniel to help us understand the event that sets off the final age-ending tribulation (Matthew 24:15) and Daniel refers specifically to the final time of trouble (Daniel 12:1). Can any reference examples to this catching away of the saints before the final time of trouble and the second coming be cited? What did Jesus and Daniel have to say on the matter? Which of their words can one be pointed to?

Zechariah 14
2 Thessalonians 1-2

Both of these scriptures speak on the matter, albeit highlighting different aspects, (and from my reading) neither of which seem to suggest the righteous will be absent from the scene, rather in both cases they appear to be protected/preserved by their obedience to His word/love of the truth -

Zechariah is interesting in that it provides a clear picture of the locations and events, which match the prophecy the angels gave concerning Christs’ (physical location) return.

Paul in 2 Thess is obviously more concerned with the timeline so as to buttress the faith of the church against the inevitable deception that comes from not "receiving a love of the truth”-

though both do refer to a "gathering together” they are different people groups- Paul to our gathering together with Christ at His return. Zech referring to the Father "gathering together” nations upon Jerusalem (specifically).

An easy argument could be made for Jerusalem being the actual bride as she is espoused as "coming down” in Rev 21:2
That means she was "in” God/heaven and at some previous point was secured there-

There is much to mine out in Paul’s timeline, as it is presented in the context of equipping the church with understanding so as not to be led astray. That in itself (for me) requires a high value allocation regarding the timeline- tho perhaps even more interesting is the fact that this information was needed this early on in the church… that means there was confusion about the timeline that required Paul to personally/formally provide remedy. Since this is true, we can deduce that the enemy was already at work attempting to muddy the water as it were and in fact Paul makes specific reference to this fact as his predicate in writing to them in this epistle. 2 Thess 1-2
A further indication is in the 1st chapter of 2 Thess where Paul is seeking to confirm and comfort them "in their tribulations” and at no point ventures away from that understanding as he segues into our "gathering together” with Jesus at His return in chapter 2 -

Guys please read the scripture below -

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God 2 Thess 2 1-4

The coming of Christ and us being gathered to him does not happen until the man of lawlessness is revealed.

Let no man decieve you in any way - is the warning in the scripture we just read.

Matthew 24:2 - But He responded and said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
(Mar 13:3”“13; Luk 21:7”“19”Š)

Matthew 24:3 - And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

I know this must not be a unique approach, but maybe it’s new to some. Is it possible that the disciples ( in their ignorance ) thought they were asking one question when it was in fact 2 or 3 questions. So, Jesus answers with three different responses in the balance of the passage. This certainly would explain the judgment of 70 AD and the final judgment to come.

Matthew 24:2 - But He responded and said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
(Mar 13:3”“13; Luk 21:7”“19”Š)

Matthew 24:3 - And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

I know this must not be a unique approach, but maybe it’s new to some. Is it possible that the disciples ( in their ignorance ) thought they were asking one question when it was in fact 2 or 3 questions. So, Jesus answers with three different responses in the balance of the passage. This certainly would explain the judgment of 70 AD and the final judgment to come.

I too believe that persecution will come soon. I hope we are ready to defend our faith in Christ Jesus.
Thanks brother Greg for this post, so that we can be ready when it happens.

Hi Yulboum,
What does ready mean to you?Is it just ready to defend our faith?or is there something more?,yours staff

Hi Staff,

What ready means to me is being prepared like mentioned on the first post by brother Gary *edit

Thanks for your question.

'When it snows, she has no fear for her household,for they are all clothed in scarlet.' Proverbs 31:21

by staff
Hi Yulboum,
What does ready mean to you?Is it just ready to defend our faith?or is there something more?,yours staff

Hi Lysa,
Ready doesnt mean make preparations to me.Zac Poonen's only practical suggestion was to live simply and save money wisely for a rainy day and this suggestion doesnt gaurantee you will stand during persecution.If strong persecution comes you will lose both the simple living and the money.We need to store up riches in heaven.Job had riches and lost them but kept faithful.

"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

Getting ready doesnt mean to me that we preach some different gospel such as the gospel of persecution.We need to preach the full Gospel,the good news Gospel that Jesus died and rose again and will come back again.
Being ready for me is to love God with all your heart soul and mind and love my neighbour as my self.
Im ready and expect Jesus to come when he said he would like the times of Noah and Lot.
In both cases they were eating and drinking and planting, ,building etc.This time is clearly not a time in the middle of the Great tribulation nor can it be a time after the Great Tribulation.
Unfortunately their are people preaching that his bride have to go through the Great Tribulation to be purified.
The bride has to be made ready agreed and separated but this happens pre rapture and if I am not ready or if any parts of my life are not ready then I trust God to make me ready,
urs staff

Hi Yulboum,
Unfortunately Zac Poonen's post is vague on being ready or being prepared,
urs staff

Hi Staff,

I didn't find Zac's message vague.

To be ready for tribulation means to be like the 5 virgins who gathered their oil in their vessels. Also, being ready is like the prudent wife described on Proverbs 31.
This means to continue to obey God's command to believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ and to love your neighbors as yourself. Relying on Jesus Christ for His work on the cross and His power of the resurrection and to love your neighbors by helping those in need, forgiving others, blessing those who hurt you. Sharing your bread with a stranger in need.

Hi Yulboum,
Zac mentioned a list of commands and linked them subtely to "a persecution gospel".
The 5 foolish virgins didnt suffer persecution or tribulation by the way nor did the 5 wise virgins.The parable is about being ready for Christs return not being ready for persecution or tribulation.
Jesus never said go ye throughout he world and preach about persecution.He stated facts ,you will have persecution and tribulations.This is a fact as every Christian would have experienced at some stage.
The problem here is we have a group of people spreading a different gospel such as Zac Poonen,
urs staff

Hi Yelboum,
Just a sidenote "What persecution did Zac Poonen face"?,
urs staff

6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. (Rev 13:6-7)

Hi Docs
I dont think Zac Poonen opened his mouth to blaspheme ,this verse is about something else.I think Zac is just wrong,
urs staff

I didn't mean to imply you thought Poonen blasphemed. You did though say he preached another gospel because he disagrees with you.

I was just pointing out what Revelation reveals awaits end-time saints. Thank goodness for Revelation 12:11.

Hi Staff,

I don't know.

by staff on 2023/9/11 9:51:27
...
Getting ready doesnt mean to me that we preach some different gospel such as the gospel of persecution.We need to preach the full Gospel,the good news Gospel that Jesus died and rose again and will come back again.

God bless,
Lisa

Hi Lisa,
I do say that their will be persecution and tribulation but I dont replace the good news gospel which we are meant to spread with "the gospel of persecution".The gospel of persecution is a replacement gospel.Jesus said we would be persecuted for his sake but he never said go around preaching that we would be persecuted for his sake.The love is telling the way it is just like Paul did,
urs staff

Staff, I have enjoyed dialoguing with you over the years but you are seeing this topic way lop-sided. Greg just posted "ONE", 1, topic that Zac Poonen preaches on, he isn't just preach a post trib resurrection. Have you EVER bothered to listen to any of them? How about one of them? This is a "you" problem, not a persecution problem.

1. Here is a list of sermons from Zac on his website for FREE:

Detached from the Love of Possessions
Speaker Zac Poonen
Series Understanding the New Covenant

UNDERSTANDING THE NEW COVENANT Part 7: Detached from the love of possessions
Speaker Zac Poonen
Series UNDERSTANDING THE NEW COVENANT

10th September 2023 - CFC Bangalore (Home Speaker) - Sunday Church Service
Speaker [""]
Series

Give No Room To The Devil
Speaker Zac Poonen

UNDERSTANDING THE NEW COVENANT Part 6: Bearing The Dying oF Jesus Constantly

2. And here are his the studies you can download for FREE:

THE GLORY OF THE NEW COVENANT

Basic Christian Teachings
72 messages of 15 min each starting from ground-zero. This series of audio messages by Zac Poonen is on foundational Christian truths. Each message is in the MP3 format.

Fundamental Biblical Truths
This is a series of 28 studies of 25 minutes each, that will enable you to have a good foundational knowledge of the basic truths of God’s Word. You can use this for home Bible-study groups.

Through The Bible
70 one-hour expositions that bring out the distinctive message of each book of the Bible. Through The Bible will help you to understand scripture in a deeper way! Each message is also available as DVD and Audio CDs.

Verse By Verse
An intensely practical verse-by-verse study, produced over a period of thirty years, on selected Old and New Testament books. If you are looking for a systematic or in depth study on a book, here is the tool to help you. Each message is in the MP3 format.

Staff, you find fault with everyone who disagrees with you, let me ask you... what exactly are you doing for the Kingdom of God?

Where are your free thousands of sermons, where are your free thousands of teachings?

Hi Lysa,
This is not a "you" problem as you see it ,this is a gospel problem.No where did Jesus say go ye into all the world and preach an unbalanced persecution gospel.Simple as.Im not disagreeing with anyone personally just this unbalance.
He did teach how to deal with these things
Ive said over and over that I think the persecution gospel is a cul de sac and goes hand in hand with "you can lose your salvation" gospel
I could say the exact same about you ie you find fault in anyone that disagrees with you ,saying that is just away of getting around the valid points that are being made.
Where are your free sermons etc?
urs staff

Hi Lysa,
Im not saying Zac is not earnest in his beliefs or heretical or not a good person but....
I challenge you to listen to the first 2/3 minutes of this Zac Poonen video on the Tribulation and almost everything he says is hearsay or experential

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbeUHdqBoWE

1 Evangelical Christians differ on this issue =correct
This is true
2 Jesus Christ comes secretly = incorrect
Zac introduces "secretly" himself as a debating point.
The pretribulation rapture is not secret.
Zac clearly doesnt understand the end times
3 He bases his theology of the end on "experential doctrine"not the bible.
The first reason he says that the rapture is not pre trib is because they dont believe it in countries that are experiencing persecution.He then gives the tried and tested Corrie Ten Boon doesnt believe it.He does not qoute scripture at the start as his base arguement but experience
4
I found out that the teaching of a pre trib rapture was introduce 150years ago he says.Again not relying on scripture for an arguement but on hearsay.Even if it were true it does not make it incorrect.It has to be argued by scripture not history.
5
He searched the scriptures and he could not find one verse
Zac is relying on his reputation to convince his audience rather than scripture ."I studied if for 50 years"

These false arguements have been echoed over and over again on SI.

Firstly the rapture being secret is based on a mis understanding of "twinkling of an eye" passage
Secondly the debate has to have a foundation of scripture not experience
Thirdly their is clearly a passage in the new testament showing that Christ comes before the Tribulation and after the Tribulation "as it were in the days of Noah" and "As it were in the days of lot"
Fourthly
Zac clearly doesnt understand prophetic pattern
Just listen to 3 mins,
urs staff

///Where are your free sermons etc?
urs staff ///

email me your email and I'll send you my free sermons.

Hi Lysa,
What about the 3 minute challenge?If so can you comment on my points please?
urs staff

"But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days." (Daniel 12:13)

Daniel's personal resurrection will come at the end of this present evil age - at the end of the days - at the time of the end. It seems safe to assume that all other Old Testament saints, prophets etc. will rise in this resurrection.

Paul said we will all be changed and glorified at the last trumpet - "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead (Daniel included) will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (I Cor 15:52)

Assuming Daniel will experience his personal resurrection at the end of the age as promised, along with all other saints, if the pre-trib view is legitimate, then Daniel would have to be raised and changed 7 or 3 & 1/2 years before the end of the age. As seen, the plain uncomplicated reading of Scripture lays this notion to rest. How can saints be raised and glorified at a last pre-trib trumpet only to be followed at the end of the days by another trumpet? If a pre-trib rapture trumpet sounds, then how can it legitimately be called the last trumpet at which all Old and New Testament saints are changed if another trumpet is yet to sound at the end of the age another 7 or 3 & 1/2 years later? How many "last" trumpets can there be? If Daniel is to be resurrected at the end of the days and Paul's last trumpet signaling the resurrection occurs at the end of the age (as with Daniel), then the pre-trib notion is laid to rest by Scripture itself. It's exegetically impossible for saints to be raised and glorified at a supposed pre-trib last trumpet to be followed years later by another last trumpet and resurrection.

Hi Docs
I see you decided to participate with scripture rather than just vague posts like below.Lysa didnt complain too you about that though.....double standards

6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. (Rev 13:6-7)

urs staff

Hi Docs,
Never assume ,Matthew 27 shows a ressurection before that ressurrection of Daniel and also the two witnesses are resurrected before the timeline you are going with.

"It seems safe to assume that all other Old Testament saints, prophets etc. will rise in this resurrection."

Matt 27 :51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

urs staff

Hi All,
As it was in the days of Noah,as it was in the days of Lot UNTIL THE DAY!

Q When does judgement come?
A When the good guys are taken out.

Q When does that happen?
A The exact day that the good guys are taken out

Q Who said this ?
A Jesus

Q What were the conditions like before Judgement?
A They were eating,drinking,building ,Marrying (not in Sodom)
sowing,reaping etc

Q Would they be eating ,drinking etc by the end of THE GREAT TRIBULATION?

A NO

Q Is The Great Tribulation Great?
A The worst time ever on Earth

urs staff

Many holy people were raised as a first-fruits sign of surety of a coming resurrection in Matthew 27 and the two witnesses will be raised. However, this raising hardly included the main body and bulk of Old Testament saints. The vast majority still remain unraised as do the vast majority of those who have believed in Christ up until that time and over the ages. When will all these be raised and glorified?

When will Daniel's resurrection occur according to Daniel 12:13? Paul said we will be raised and changed at the last trumpet. So, the pre-trib predicament is, how can believers be raised and changed at the last trumpet at a pre-trib rapture if seven or so years later there is another last trumpet to sound at which believers will be raised and glorified? (Matt 24:31)? Restated, how can there be a trumpet sound at a pre-trib rapture and be called the "last" trumpet, supposedly at which all all believers are raised and changed, and there be another last trumpet sound at Christ's coming at the end of the age, the end of days, when Daniel and others will be raised and changed? How many last trumpets can there be? How many does Scripture present?

The Dilemma:

1) Pre-trib rapture - a trumpet sounds (assuming to be the last trumpet) and saints are raised and glorified.

2) End of the age - a trumpet sounds (assuming to be the last trumpet) at the coming of Christ and is when Daniel and others are raised and glorified - at the end of the days.

There can't be more than one last trumpet signaling resurrection and glorification. Therefore, if saints past and present, Old and New Testament are to be raised and glorified at the last trumpet (I Cor 15:52), then the pre-trib view finds itself advocating an unsolvable contradiction.

Hi Docs
My answer to that is dont ignore my posts when they dont fit into ur timeline.The Post-trib view finds itself advocating an unsolvable contradiction in this case.
For instance:

Hi All,
As it was in the days of Noah,as it was in the days of Lot UNTIL THE DAY!

Q When does judgement come?
A When the good guys are taken out.

Q When does that happen?
A The exact day that the good guys are taken out

Q Who said this ?
A Jesus

Q What were the conditions like before Judgement?
A They were eating,drinking,building ,Marrying (not in Sodom)
sowing,reaping etc

Q Would they be eating ,drinking etc by the end of THE GREAT TRIBULATION?

A NO

Q Is The Great Tribulation Great?
A The worst time ever on Earth

urs staff

Hi Docs,
Nonetheless your points are good,logical and need an answer.
The simpliest answer is they were different trumpets.
Their is a series of trumpets in Revelation and Paul was gone by the time these trumpets were revealed to John on Patmos.
The pre trib view of the last trump was that it represented the last trump of one of the feasts,the feast of trumpets,
urs staff

You got me thinking and wondering, where does it say all normal activity of any kind will end during the tribulation? Even at the end of the tribulation? It surely will not be a normal time and will be horrific, but where does it say at least some normal physical things will not be going on.

"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

What will the two men in the field be doing? Why are two women grinding with a hand mill? The two men in the field and the two women grinding at the mill seem to be at least trying to carry on normal agricultural activity. Will everyone quit eating and drinking during the tribulation? Why the parable mentioning food in due season? "Therefore you also be ready for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doin.?"

The AC will turn his wrath on Israel and those of the church who assist Israel and keep the commandments of Jesus. Much will be going on. Armies will be on the move, eating and drinking I suppose as they go. Many people were married during WW II.

Economic Babylon will have continued its activity and many commercial activities during this time before it is judged at the end in one day (Rev 18).

It doesn't seem that all normal activity will cease during the tribulation though things will be vastly different. Thus so, because many things will continue it will be as the days of Noah when many things continued as before. Because many things will continue, I don't think it automatically implies the church will be gone.

I challenge you to listen to the first 2/3 minutes of this Zac Poonen video on the Tribulation and almost everything he says is hearsay or experential

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbeUHdqBoWE

1 Evangelical Christians differ on this issue =correct
This is true
2 Jesus Christ comes secretly = incorrect
Zac introduces "secretly" himself as a debating point.
The pretribulation rapture is not secret.
Zac clearly doesnt understand the end times
3 He bases his theology of the end on "experential doctrine"not the bible.
The first reason he says that the rapture is not pre trib is because they dont believe it in countries that are experiencing persecution.He then gives the tried and tested Corrie Ten Boon doesnt believe it.He does not qoute scripture at the start as his base arguement but experience
4
I found out that the teaching of a pre trib rapture was introduce 150years ago he says.Again not relying on scripture for an arguement but on hearsay.Even if it were true it does not make it incorrect.It has to be argued by scripture not history.
5
He searched the scriptures and he could not find one verse
Zac is relying on his reputation to convince his audience rather than scripture ."I studied if for 50 years"

These false arguements have been echoed over and over again on SI.

Firstly the rapture being secret is based on a mis understanding of "twinkling of an eye" passage
Secondly the debate has to have a foundation of scripture not experience
Thirdly their is clearly a passage in the new testament showing that Christ comes before the Tribulation and after the Tribulation "as it were in the days of Noah" and "As it were in the days of lot"
Fourthly
Zac clearly doesnt understand prophetic pattern
Just listen to 3 mins,

#1 Evangelical Christians differ on this issue = (Lisa ”“ True)

#2 Jesus Christ comes secretly = (Lisa - again, he is agreeing with you that it is NOT secret)
-\tVerbatim: …Evangelical Christians have differences of opinion AND THAT is concerning whether Jesus Christ will come secretly for the church before the 7 years period of great tribulation and THEN come publicly to the earth… (He is not introducing a secret rapture)
-\t
#3 He bases his theology of the end on "experiential doctrine” not the bible.
The first reason he says that the rapture is not pre trib is because they dont believe it in countries that are experiencing persecution. He then gives the tried and tested Corrie Ten Boon doesnt believe it.He does not qoute scripture at the start as his base arguement but experience
(India ”“ 1. His country is experiencing persecution against Christians by Radical Hindu’s and 2. It was Corrie Ten Boom’s experience and it was true.)

#4 I found out that the teaching of a pre trib rapture was introduce 150years ago he says. Again not relying on scripture for an arguement but on hearsay.Even if it were true it does not make it incorrect.It has to be argued by scripture not history. (Lisa here, are we not allowed anywhere in our sermon to interject our personal testimony? Not anywhere of how "WE” came to our conclusions?)

5 He searched the scriptures and he could not find one verse. Zac is relying on his reputation to convince his audience rather than scripture. "I studied if for 50 years"
(Staff, do you have "ONE” scripture that supports the pre-trib doctrine? That is all he is saying, he has studied it for 50 years and he has not found "ONE” scripture that supports it.

And right at the 3:02 mark, he talks about John 16:33. He is talking about scripture. Perhaps, you should listen to the whole sermon. ;)

God bless you,
Lisa

//You got me thinking and wondering, where does it say all normal activity of any kind will end during the tribulation?//

I have always seen Staff’s point on this. Jesus seems to be saying that everything was normal when the flood hit. In making the comparison he is saying things will be normal when the Son of man returns.

He is not saying a few things will be normal during incredibly abnormal times. He is saying the time itself will be normal.

That being said, I disagree with Staff’s application but his argument is sound.

by TMK on 2023/9/14 14:29:37

//You got me thinking and wondering, where does it say all normal activity of any kind will end during the tribulation?//

I have always seen Staff’s point on this. Jesus seems to be saying that everything was normal when the flood hit. In making the comparison he is saying things will be normal when the Son of man returns.

He is not saying a few things will be normal during incredibly abnormal times. He is saying the time itself will be normal.
---------------------------------

I definitely agree with you and Staff on this too. All these crazy pre-trib apocalyptic movies (and post-trib apocalyptic), imho are way off. We will be eating, drinking and giving in marriage; and be having the four seasons as far as I can tell from the Scriptures. We all have our own nuances of what the end times will be, no one is right.

Then He will appear in the blink of an eye!!

Maranatha!!

It would seem to mean that, just as in the days of Noah, so it will be at the time of the coming of the Son of man. In Noah's day, things were proceeding along normally until the flood came upon an unexpecting world. Before the final time of judgment and tribulation and Christ's coming, the unexpecting world will be doing just as it always has - eating, drinking, giving in marriage etc. In the midst of this "peace and safety," sudden destruction will come upon an unprepared and unsuspecting world. Just as in the days of Noah. Things will not be normal during the tribulation. They will be normal in many ways in the time leading up the beginning of final judgments and tribulation and maybe even a bit into the beginning phases of the tribulation. It is not likely it means or implies the world will be going along as usual when a pre-trib rapture occurs.

Meanwhile, If the church is resurrected and raised at the last trumpet 7 years or so before the second coming, at which trumpet are the dead raised and glorified at the actual second coming? The change in the bodies of believers that takes place has to occur at the last trumpet - I Cor 15:52. So, is the trumpet that is supposed to sound 7 years or so before the second coming the last trumpet, or is the trumpet that sounds at the second coming the last trumpet?

Hi TMK,
Could you expand on ur qoute I might learn something?

That being said, I disagree with Staff’s application but his argument is sound.

Also Jesus delibrately gave two examples and both were "until the day"
Jesus said that the moment Lot was out of harm's way and the moment Noah was out of harm's way then and only then could Judgement happen.

As a side note or foot note both Lot and Noah went up out of their place,Lot went out of the valley and Noah rose up with the Ark,
urs staff

Hey staff- I believe Jesus in context was talking about the coming destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans about 40 years later. But I don’t have any desire to argue about that.

Hi Lysa,
Zac Poonen says that Christians in persecuted countries like Corrie Ten Boom dont believe in pretrib not because the bible says pre trib is wrong but because they are experiencing persecution.
This is experential doctrine and is faulty exegesis.He is not relying on the bible but on experience.

We are allowed to come to conclusions but only based on scripture.
My point is it took him 3 mins to introduce scripture as a reason and based his whole sermon on experience and his reputation.
As for the secret rapture :It is Zac who mentions the secret rapture as evidence of how stupid the pre trib is but in reality the idea of a secret rapture is only based on a dodgy reading of one verse.
Put another way the rapture is not secret and Zac should know this was a red herring arguement.

After listening to Zac Poonen I personally would be very careful listening to him about any subject in the future,
urs staff

Hi TMK,
Cool, you are saying rightly or wrongly that it happened already,
urs staff

I don’t think any rapture or 2nd coming happened yet but I think the tribulation Jesus speaks of in the OD is the horrors of the siege and slaughter and destruction of Jerusalem. There are plenty of online resources to read just how terrible it was.

Hi,

I want to encourage everyone that if you face persecution for Jesus, rejoice and be glad. Let us be thankful because We are following Jesus Christ who suffered for us. In our present day, we see in the media how much they are against Christ Jesus and against Christians. But let's be strong in the faith and pray for each other and encourage each other.
Let's share with one another how God has been good to us.
We will see Jesus coming soon.

Just can’t go any further without acknowledging your complete and utter commitment to your beliefs 🙏🏻
I mean you are ten toes down and the temperance and verve wherewith you field the incessant testing is quite refreshing:))
While I may not see it as you do, your patient treatment of those of us who see it differently is a thing we can all learn from-
What’s more, your unshakable vision of what you believe requires me to revisit this topic and reconsider my own views.
I can honestly say your presentation is without doubt formidable and wether ultimately correct or not, blesses my spirit and even comforts me.
Not gonna say that I’d have a problem with it if you turn out to be spot on ;)

Very recently, while looking into the matter (because of this thread) I came across something that I’d never heard before and wanted to run it past you …

A particular view was presented that suggested we could in fact be reading a key point wrongly, where when the scriptures say ; "2 will be working in the field and one is taken and one is left, 2 will be on the rooftop and one is taken and one is left” (paraphrased) that the ones left (not taken) are the better as they are the "meek that inherit the earth” …🤔

Admittedly I’m not nearly as informed on this subject as you, but this was a monkey wrench of sorts as it turned my entire perspective on its head-
Is this something you’ve encountered before and/or how do you address this perspective?

Thanks again for your input 😇

by staff on 2023/9/14 17:02:43

Hi Lysa,
Zac Poonen says that Christians in persecuted countries like Corrie Ten Boom dont believe in pretrib not because the bible says pre trib is wrong but because they are experiencing persecution.
This is experential doctrine and is faulty exegesis.He is not relying on the bible but on experience.

We are allowed to come to conclusions but only based on scripture.
My point is it took him 3 mins to introduce scripture as a reason and based his whole sermon on experience and his reputation.
As for the secret rapture :It is Zac who mentions the secret rapture as evidence of how stupid the pre trib is but in reality the idea of a secret rapture is only based on a dodgy reading of one verse.
Put another way the rapture is not secret and Zac should know this was a red herring arguement.

After listening to Zac Poonen I personally would be very careful listening to him about any subject in the future,
urs staff

I'm not being drawn into this anymore b/c of someone I don't even listen to anymore! I do see your point, I may not agree but I see it.

You need to get a youtube channel and expound on your differences with every post-trib person out there!! Be sure and open the comments so we can dialogue there!! :)

God bless you brother,
Lisa

PS: I'm not trying to be mean, Staff. I work 10 hours a day and I became a grandma this year! I just don't have the "want-to" to keep arguing about this! I hope you understand.

Hi Lisa,
I understand and appreciate your point of view and posts.
We will see each other with Christ where we will be busy enjoying worshipping him with a clear understanding of all scripture,urs staff

Hi Yelboum,
While not what we go out to look for,being glad and rejoicing in persecution is what we all hope to aspire too and achieve.
The media are a "false prophet"and are controlled by the "prince of the power of the air" and are against all that is good.Looking forward to Jesus coming whenever it is where we rise to be with him forever.What a thought....
urs staff

Hi JFW,
I'm reading this scripture again after you highlighted it

(up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.)

Jesus says in 39 "took them all away"

Jesus says in 40 "One will be taken"
Jesus says in 41 "One will be taken"

I am thinking that the "taken" in 40 and 41 has to have the exact same meaning as the "took them" in 39 because one is an example of another.Jesus is saying the men in the field and the women grinding will be like Noah's day.

Following on from that train of thought and paraphrasing heavily is Jesus saying this
In Noah's Day Judgement came and took them all away and it will be like that in the end Judgement will come and take away one man in the field and one women at he mill.

And for the ones that are left is Jesus saying they will be left in a safe place from Judgement like Noah in the Ark ,

Thanks for your comments,
urs staff

34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.
35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they said to him, "Where, Lord?” He said to them, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” Lk. 17:34-37. ESV
””””””””

Those taken are going to be corpses. That is where vultures gather.

Hi TMK,
I think that sums it up,
urs staff

Not to flog a dead horse but…

When we read the characterization by Jesus regarding those whom will be eating, drinking and giving to marry,… the question that comes to my mind is "who” is doing those things ? Surely not those whom follow Christ 🤔

For example wether we look at the times of Noah, Lot or 70ad, none of the persons who were being faithful to God were caught off guard… Noah was preparing the Ark, Lot was interceding for those round about him, and the NT believers had fled Jerusalem so none of these were going on in normalcy, rather they were aware of the impending judgement-

So how I read these passages is that Jesus is contrasting those whom are faithful to Him with those who are of the world, which for me serves to parse out the tribulation… just how in Sodom, the ungodly didn’t experience a tribulation but rather were celebrating their sin all the way till the end, so the only persons actually experiencing any sort of trial/tribulation was Lot and his family just like with Noah.

So my personal take on the tribulation is that it’s only a tribulation for the righteous and everyone else is distracted by their pursuits of fleshly indulgence.
That’s not to say that the events won’t be visible, surely they will be as well as experienced yet the ungodly will not be bothered by the increased wickedness as it’s their natural habitat, whereas it will grieve deeply the righteous much like we have today where sinners rejoice over their "rights” to abortion, gay sex, pedophilia, legalized drug use, pornography, prostitution, corruption, etc… all while claiming the victim hood of injustice when they are met with resistance- tho fr the righteous these are indeed grievous and troublesome times 🤔
That’s why it seems "normal” for some but intolerable for others -

TMK,

Try Ezekiel 39:17-20 and Revelation 19:17-18.

Thank you Yulboum for the encouragement.
I believe we desperately need it sooner or later.

Here is a message from 2008 by Paul Washer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7UyZYpeReY

He mentions towards the end that hell will break loose on us.
The more I study Scripture and the more I see what's happening already around us, I believe that is true.
It will get extremely evil on this planet and it will require a lot of heat to purify the church, the Bride, to make Her spotless

We need to continually fix our eyes on Jesus.
May He give us the grace and strength to endure to the end.

"In Christ alone my hope is found..."

Markus

Fletcher - I see your point for sure and tend to agree but the "left behind” version of the tribulation is oceans turning to blood and stars hitting the earth and 1/3 of the population dying etc. So even an evil person might find it a tad hard to carry on in their normal wickedness when the are dodging asteroids.

//Try Ezekiel 39:17-20 and Revelation 19:17-18.//

I tried it, not sure what you are getting at.

Ha! Well those things or things like that may happen but even tho they (the world) fear it they will follow the narrative …. Seems like we are/have been primed, like glow plugs on a diesel engine, to believe the alien invasion narrative which would predicate the need for a world gov- that will then set the stage for the AC to come into full view, revealing himself as a savior type 🤔

The world will soon be subjected to a great deception, far greater than anything before it - it will indeed be a tribulation for us as we will be mocked, scorned and most likely persecuted for our faith, much like they did Jesus leading up to and on the cross. These people have been at work for decades in broad daylight yet not many seem to notice the diabolical nature of their actions.

When I look at scripture, there are references to both being taken "out” of the way and being secured "in” a situation. God didn’t spare Daniel the lions den nor S,M,A the fiery furnace, rather He secured them in the situation, tho in SoS, the bide was spared the trouble… so there are references to both -
Revelation 12 seems to suggest their will be a rescue of sorts but it will be facilitated here on the earth (vs 14-16).

In any case it’s not gonna be boring anytime soon, especially with the provocation we have just initiated in Ukraine/Russia conflict,… which itself could spill over any minute into a nightmare for most everyone -

Back when I was a pre-tribber I thought the rapture might be explained by those left behind as being due to alien abductions. Why they would think the aliens only took Christians is a little more problematic.

Hahaha;)
Well before I was ever converted and baptized, at that time I considered myself a Taoist, my boss/friend was a very zealot Christian. He told me back in the early ‘90’s that the most likely scenario was that the fallen angels/nephilim would be presented as aliens, saying something to the effect that they had come here millennia ago and seeded us and we are their offspring or something like that. I thought he was bonkers but nowadays with not only transgender people but now "furry’s” in the local schools, attending like any other student except of course they are led on leashes, mostly make animal sounds and use litter boxes-[not a joke] maybe he wasn’t so crazy after all…. 🤔

So maybe just maybe your original idea might not be as far from the truth as you thought 🤷🏽”â™‚️

It does grieve my heart to see the youth of this age taken captive, mutilated and corrupted right in front of everyone’s eyes and most are too distracted to care.
Or they are too scared of the consequences of speaking up…
So for me, wether we go before, during or after- my mission is the same, to reach the lost, encourage and edify the body, minister to the Lord, be the priest of my home- watch closely, discerning the time .

Hi guys,
I wasnt around for a couple of days....
but I want to explain something that I am saying I got from God but its up to you to judge for yourselves.
I have said it before but I will say it again regarding the scripture below but I will try to explain it better if I can

This ressurection whether the rapture or not depending on your viewpoint is being misread and mis understood.
This ressurection mentioned here is a process,its a process.
It takes time,its not instantaneous.
This is crucial in understanding this passage.

What happens in this process?

The Lord descends
The dead in Christ rise first
Then those who are alive rise

The very fact that the word "first" is mentioned means their is at least something following it.
The only thing that is instantaneous is the changing of our corruptable bodies and this is the only thing that is instantaneous or "in the twinkling of an eye".
So we can say that the process takes time but the changing is instantaneous.
Why is this so important?
It is so important because it means that this ressurection is visible not secret or invisible.
The only reason that people say that this ressurection is invisible is because they read these scripture wrong and think the whole thing is instantaneous and happens so quickly it cant be seen.
This is very important from a pretrib point of view.
Because it means that the non Christians left behind see the rapture and in seeing the rapture many become believers and populate the great tribulation.
urs staff

1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Cor 15 50
Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does [u]the perishable inherit [v]the imperishable. 51Behold, I am telling you a [w]mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [x]imperishable, and we will be changed.

Hi brother Markus,

That is so true and amazing what Paul Washer said in 2008.
The amount of evil in this world is increasing and it grew so much during the pandemic.
Thank you for sharing the video and yes let's continually fix our eyes on Jesus, He is truly our hope.

TMK,
///Back when I was a pre-tribber I thought the rapture might be explained by those left behind as being due to alien abductions. Why they would think the aliens only took Christians is a little more problematic///
Ha!! I believed that too when I was pre-trib!!! LOLOL

Zechariah 14, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and 2nd Thessalonians 2, are they not referring to the same day?

And as the same day in Revelation 19:17-20, Luke 17:34-37, and Matthew 24:29-31;

That while the saints are ‘raptured’ to the Lord the unrepentant are taken away (‘raptured’) to the great battlefield:

Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come, gather for the great supper of God,

Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.”

Mat 24:29  And immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. 

Mat 24:30  And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. 

Mat 24:31  And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 

The entire world's population, can it be fitted in the 'valley of decision'? And they said to him, "Where, Lord?” He said to them, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”

If you could follow this particular 'post-trib' line of thinking i.e. that the unbelievers are the ones to be swept away (Matt 24:39) or are taken (Matt 24:40-41) that is;

to Luke 17:37  And they said to him, "Where, Lord?” He said to them, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”Â that pertains to;

Rev 19:17  Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come, gather for the great supper of God, 

Rev 19:18  to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.”Â Which presumably also points to 'valley of decision/judgement'.

Now there are problem with this, in the book of Revelation it is said:

1. Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison

Rev 20:8  and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

If the unbelievers are taken and destroyed as described where will the nations in Rev 20:8 come from?

2. Also a review of Zechariah 14 and taking note of Zechariah 14:12  "And this shall be the plague with which THE LORD WILL STRIKE ALL THE PEOPLE THAT WAGE WAR AGAINST JERUSALEM: their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths". 

It says only 'peoples (plural of people when referring to nations or distinct ethnic group) that wage war against Jerusalem' Where then are the unbelievers of Luke 17: 34-37 taken to with regards to space or location?

Passerby- because in context Jesus is talking about the slaughter during the sack of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD not some yet future slaughter.

I think, that will be a more difficult pill to swallow for many of us. I wonder who are the best authors/proponents or any good sites to pursue about this viewpoint.

Hi Todd,

Passerby- because in context Jesus is talking about the slaughter during the sack of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD not some yet future slaughter.

In Matthew's account, the disciples asked Jesus privately (following his initial statement about the destruction of the Temple), "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

There are three parts to this question (or, perhaps, two or three separate questions):
1.) When will these things be?
2.) What will be the sign of your coming?
3.) What will be the sign of the end of the age?

I suppose that others have pointed this out previously; but, our Lord's response could be covering all three of these questions.

However, I have previously mentioned the possibility that a prophecy can refer to TWO or more events in which that prophecy is fulfilled. As such, I mentioned the "abomination which causes desolation" spoken of by the prophet Daniel.

Many (if not most) Bible scholars believe that this refers to Antiochus Epiphanes -- the vile Greek king who sacrificed a pig in the Temple of the Lord. This happened in ~156 B.C. Even many non-believing historians believe that Daniel was written after 156 B.C. and cite this passage (and others from Daniel) as being "too accurate" and suggest that it was written in the similitude of a "prophecy."

Yet, Jesus said that this "abomination that causes desolation" spoken of by Daniel had not yet happened (Matthew 24:15). So, the interpretation of the Temple's destruction is when Roman general (and future emperor) Titus destroyed it in 70 A.D. (in which the Temple was destroyed -- 40 years after our Lord's "temple" was destroyed).

Still others interpret this not as 156 B.C. or 70 A.D. but as referring to some future fulfillment. There are others who, like myself, perceive that this prophecy found its fulfillment in 156 B.C., 70 A.D. and, possibly, in the future. It is like an overlapping prophecy that is fulfilled multiple times.

So, my question is: Do you believe that the "abomination that causes desolation" refers to Antiochus Epiphanes in 156 B.C., Titus/Romans in 70 A.D. or some other event?

Chris-

Compare the abomination of desolation verse in Matthew to its parallel in Luke.

Matthew:

So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,
18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.

Luke:
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

This answers your question, at least for me.

Hi Todd,

This answers your question, at least for me.

Correct me where I'm wrong, but I understand that you're NOT a futurist both here and even with most of what's written in John's Revelation. However, I just strongly believe that THE anti-Christ mentioned in Revelation has not yet been revealed.

John had his revelation while banished on the island of Patmos. This dates it to around 95 A.D. -- 25 years after Titus's destruction of the Temple and 14 years after Titus's death in Rome (in 81 A.D.). It's also 27 years after the suicidal death of Nero (in 68 A.D.). The "beast" is apprehended at the end of the Revelation (chapter 19) and thrown "ALIVE" into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 19:20).

Remember: John wrote of the anti-Christ elsewhere in 1 John chapters 2 and 4. Written between 85-95 A.D. (or possibly later), it states "antichrist is coming" but that "many antichrists have come" (1 John 4:18).

My own view (more of a contemplation) is that the spirit of the antichrist -- an abomination that causes desolation -- is in the world and has taken many forms. This includes Antiochus Epiphanes, Titus, Nero and, ultimately, THE anti-Christ of the time of the end. Daniel referred to the spirit of the anti-Christ which took all of these forms.

I think Jesus was talking about the Roman armies in 70 AD. Since Jesus references Daniel, to be consistent Daniel must have been referring to 70 AD unless Jesus was mistaken, which I kind of doubt.

I question a literal future global leader called Antichrist as portrayed in end times novels. I will not say it’s 100% impossible I just don’t believe it strongly.

Hi Todd,

Thanks for the reply (and clarity). I suppose that the thing that makes me think otherwise (to this only-in-70A.D.-interpretation) is that the disciples asked:

1.) When will these things be?
2.) What will be the sign of your coming?
3.) What will be the sign of the end of the age?

The disciples were aware that the Lord's "second coming" would be different from his first. While I agree that the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. is included here, I feel that Jesus also shared things about his "coming" (i.e., second coming) and "the sign of the end of the age."

In fact, while the disciples were aware of the Lord's subsequent (second) coming, I believe that they tied it together with all of the Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah that were NOT fulfilled with Jesus's first coming.

Jesus pointed out that the Pharisees, Sadducees and Teachers of the Law were not expecting a Messiah to be a humble servant who would suffer and give up his life for us. I believe that this is why Jesus, as he was dying, said "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" He was quoting Psalm 22 -- a very clear prophecy by David that his Messianic descendant would die.

In fact, when Jesus was about to ascend into Heaven, his disciples asked, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel" (Acts 1:7)?

They were still expecting a Messiah-ruled KINGDOM of Israel.

Jesus replied, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

My biggest issue with the "70 A.D.-only" interpretation is that it assumes that a prophecy cannot be overlapping -- covering two or more individuals or events. Moreover, the beast and the false prophet (according to Revelation 19) are alive at the Second Coming and will be taken ALIVE into the Lake of Fire.

Personally, I feel strongly that this is NOT merely figurative language. John talked about anti-christs (plural) that have come while THE anti-christ is "coming" (in 1 John). Plus, early church leaders (including a couple who knew John in his old age) wrote about the Lord's return as a literal event.

With what I wrote earlier, this is merely my view (and as close to allowing myself to be labeled as a "dispensationalist" as I feel comfortable). However, I do think that the imagery of Daniel (let the reader understand) could refer back to Antiochus Epiphanes AND Titus AND Nero AND the future final antichrist. I'm not given to the various end-time novels either (they are often cringeworthy); but, I do think that this is a very distinct possibility.

With much love and respect,
-Christopher

Chris-

I definitely believe the Second Coming is a literal yet future event. I am not a full preterist who believes even that occurred in the first century AD.

As to the "end of the age” the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and ergo temple worship WAS the end of the age- the age of temple worship which has not returned to this day- God forbid it should ever return.

There is also lots of evidence for an earlier date for the writing of Revelation. I know 95 ad is the traditionally accepted date but there are lots of problems with that. Don’t won’t to debate about it though.

Hi Todd,

Thanks again for the clarity about your position. To be clear: I've never really paid very much attention to the various nomenclature regarding eschatology or dispensationalism (which is why I don't like to be labeled or categorized by any such terms). I've probably learned most of it here on SermonIndex than from independent study. In fact, I'm not very well-read in books on doctrine, eschatology or end-times fiction either.

I do see prophecy as fluid truths according to how the Spirit gave utterance. Old Testament prophets sometimes went from prophesying the birth, life and death of the Lord before moving on to end-times utterances. This is why I believe that many (if not most) of the Jews were awaiting a "conquering" Messiah -- the Son of David who would restore the Kingdom lost following the sins and death of Solomon and the two branches progression into captivity.

With those prophecies, it was difficult for first century Jews to accept a Messiah who was: A.) Humble; B.) A servant; C.) A gentle, teaching shepherd; D.) Not involved in earthly politics or leading a revolution; and, E.) One who would die for the sins of the world.

Yet, oddly enough, Jesus proved himself through his life -- including his miracles, teachings, parables, prophecies and, of course, sacrificial death. Some Jews saw him for who He was. Others didn't want to believe that the Messiah would come in such a way. They had their hearts set on a conquering king rather than a sacrificial lamb. They couldn't fathom TWO comings of the Messiah for which he would accomplish both.

I get what you're saying about the "end of the age." However, I think that "age" isn't an entirely accurate English word used for this term. The Greek word used is "aiōn" -- which is often translated in different ways. The King James Version translated it as "world." Most English translations use "world" or "age" for this particular passage. This is likely because "aiōn" is different from "epoch" (which would indicate the closing of an era rather time itself).

After all, this word (i.e., "aiōn") is taken from the root "aei" usually translated as "always" or "ever." In fact, the same word is used as a more ultimate "end" and finality elsewhere in Scriptures. It's used when it talks about how those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this "aiōn" or in what's to come (Matthew 12:32). It's also used in Matthew 13 when Jesus mentions the end of this world -- where God's judgment is accomplished.

So, I'm inclined to think of the "end of the age" more as, well, the end of the "ever" of this world. I imagine that the disciples who asked Jesus these questions were perplexed -- particularly given the idea that the Temple would be destroyed. I wonder if any of them at that time understood that it would happen within their lifetimes (and just 40 years later).

As for the dating of Revelation's writing (although you said that you don't really want to debate it, please allow me to share a quick personal reasoning for its date): I've read a bit about the early-pen hypothesis. I just don't think that it fits within the timeline of the New Testament. In particular, the messages to the churches speaks of persecution that they were enduring. Nero's persecution of the Christians was limited more to Rome. He had already begun an attempt to quell the rising Jewish revolt in Israel.

However, while Nero eventually cracked down on Christians in Rome, the churches in Asia -- at least toward the end of Paul's life -- were enjoying good spiritual health and relative peace (*at least as evidenced in Paul's final epistles). The fact that John was EXILED to Patmos shows an extent of persecution over years (or decades) rather than something that happened early on.

Moreover, early writers were confident in dating John's exile to Patmos as happened during the reign of Emperor Domitian (the emperor AFTER the death of Titus). The most viable of these would be Irenaeus -- who knew John's disciple Polycarp. Irenaeus wrote that Revelation was written by John just a short time earlier and "toward the end of Domitian's reign." Domitian's reign extended from 81 to 96 A.D. So, this is one example why most scholars believe that the "~95 A.D." estimate is accurate. In fact, Eusebius, Victorinus and others all mentioned this (and not really as something that was even in question).

The dating of John's Revelation of Jesus Christ is important because of what Jesus tells John in Revelation 1:19: "Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and THOSE THAT ARE TO TAKE PLACE AFTER THIS."

Moreover, I find that it also makes me consider the closing of John's Revelation -- where Jesus said, "Surely I am coming soon" (Revelation 22:18-21). When you consider the question of the disciples in Matthew 24 (i.e., "What will be the sign of your coming?"), he answers the question in both Matthew 24-25 and, subsequently, in Revelation.

Hey Chris-

I am not saying you may not be correct. My wife and probably every Christian I know personally is in your camp.

I just have become convinced over the last 15 years or so that Revelation was written in highly symbolic (coded) and apocalyptic style to encourage real Christians at that time who were undergoing intense persecution and who would be in a much better position to understand the symbolism therein than we. The book was an epistle, after all. I think it is a mistake, and perhaps a dire mistake, to try to force its highly figurative language into some future fulfillment.

You know as well as I do that almost every phrase in Revelation has been subject to rather tortured futuristic interpretations that change with the flavor of the day (eg the stinging locusts from the bottomless pit are genetically engineered creatures; the false prophet is AI, etc).

The final tribulation ends with the resurrection of the dead.

What figure is slain by the brightness of Christ's coming? A figurative figure?

This present evil age did not end in 70 AD. When does it end and how?

Definition of terms about preterism:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dILQHlaqINg

Hi all
I noticed that some post tribbers have said that they were previously "pre tribbers".Is the reasoning behind their change experential?It seems so to me.They listen to people like Zac Poonen who base their doctrine on experience and then use scripture to back up their doctrine.

Their is also a huge double standard applied by Zac Poonen supporters.They allow Zac Poonen to put experience first and then then build a scriptural arguement around that experience but hold themselves up as being scripturally solid.
Zac Poonen is a very poor teacher of the end times.
Their may be a good arguement for the Post Tribulation view but Zac Poonen has fallen well short of that but because he is a Post Tribulation believer he is given a free pass on his dodgy exegesis by some SI believers,
urs staff

//I noticed that some post tribbers have said that they were previously "pre tribbers"//

The plain and obvious reason for this is that 99.9% of evangelical churches teach pre-trib only so it is the only thing folks hear growing up in the great majority of evangelical churches.

I didn’t even know a different view could be supported by scripture until I was well into my 30s and didn’t change my view until my 40s. And I didn’t hear the arguments in church.

Hi TMK,
And the double standards of Zac Poonen supporters?
urs staff

I’m not a big follower of ZP (but I certainly respect him) so I can’t really speak to that.

As for me, I tend to lean towards post-trip, but I do believe we will be spared God's wrath by rapture before the bowl judments.

As with Jesus first coming, things were shrouded in mystery even for the most learned scholars. Instead, the revelation came to simple handmades, devout intercessors, and shepherds who tended the flock by night in obscure places like Bethlehem, - which may be a characteristic of true shepherds who keep watch even at the darkest night hour. This is the time we are living in now.

As it was then, so it is today:
Psalms 25:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; And he will shew them his covenant. Mine eyes are ever toward the LORD; For he shall pluck my feet out of the net.

As we are awaiting the Master's second coming, let us follow the example of Mary, Elisabeth, Hannah and Simeon and the shepherds. You may add Isaiah 1:3 The ox knows his owner, and the donkey his master's crib; but Israel doesn't know.

The donkey allowed the master to ride it.
May the Lord take us for a ride!

The ox forfeited his crib for the master to lay down.
What a wonderful picture of meekness.

Last not least were the magi, who came with precious gifts from a far coutry and the intension to worship the son of God.

The bible gives us wonderful examples of those who the Lord is willing to reveal his coming, and so will it be for the his second coming.

So my simple receipe is: Be ready for the Lord and persecution any time. That works for pretrib, posttrib and even sudden death.

Hi staff,

I noticed that some post tribbers have said that they were previously "pre tribbers".Is the reasoning behind their change experential?It seems so to me.They listen to people like Zac Poonen who base their doctrine on experience and then use scripture to back up their doctrine.

Their is also a huge double standard applied by Zac Poonen supporters.They allow Zac Poonen to put experience first and then then build a scriptural arguement around that experience but hold themselves up as being scripturally solid.
Zac Poonen is a very poor teacher of the end times.
Their may be a good arguement for the Post Tribulation view but Zac Poonen has fallen well short of that but because he is a Post Tribulation believer he is given a free pass on his dodgy exegesis by some SI believers,

While I strongly lean to the view that Jesus will gather his Bride before the period of God's wrath is poured out upon the entire world (what many call the "rapture"), I'm not sure what you mean about Brother Zac putting "experience first."

I've listened to Brother Zac in-person (he used to visit ALCF in Mountain View, California -- just a few miles from our home). Once, my wife and I met another SermonIndex brother who also attended one of those meetings. In fact, I was able to greet Brother Zac after one of those meetings. He was a very gentle and humble brother.

Now, I don't know all of what Brother Zac teaches. I've read and listened to quite a few of his messages found here on SermonIndex. Obviously, this doesn't mean that I would agree with everything that he teaches.

In fact, I don't know that anyone is necessarily a "Zac Poonen supporter" -- meaning that I don't think that any believer necessarily embraces all things that any person teaches or believes either. There are certain teachers/preachers that I listen to in which I have a strong disagreement with when it comes to some doctrinal matters.

Like I said, I have a strong leaning toward the view that our Lord with gather his Bride before the coming wrath of God. In fact, I began writing a post that would present those very reasons for this (as a response to someone else's post a couple of weeks ago). I hoped that it would include and explain the Scriptural reasons that have given me enough thought to feel that it is a more likely scenario. Unfortunately, I became very busy. I hope to finish it and post it here soon.

Still, I'm interested in what you mean by Zac Poonen putting "experience first."

Hi Chrissss,
So what I mean is that Zac firstly uses experience rather than scripture to validate his view that we go through the tribulation.He gains the audience trust first ..... with his resume and then uses believers experience for creating doctrine...This sermon feels like a cheap 3 card trick...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sovV_ryr8c&t=22s

The experience=
1. Minute 1:16 Nobody believes it in the persecuted countries like China or former communist countries.
2 Minute 1:20 It arose in countries that never experienced peresecution for centuries
3 Minute 1:28
Corrie Ten Boon is given as an example that because of her persecution she didnt believe in Pre trib rapture.
4
He delibrately teaches false hoods
"We waited for Jesus to come but the communist came"
Nobody teached that the rapture would happen to take people out of tribulation or individual countries difficulties like the communists coming.
5 He says that the pre trib belief only arose 150yrs ago and even if their is some truth in this it makes no difference,it has to be refuted with scripture only.It doesnt make it wrong when it was brought to the fore.After all arent we meant to know more about the end times the closer we get to it!

So his foundation for his doctrine is not the bible but the experience of believers.
He puts one of the reasons to believe him is that he studied the bible for 50 yrs and basically he's an expert,trust in his experience .He says that he couldnt find one verse...
He must have overlooked :As it were in the days of Noah,as it were in the days of Lot where Jesus clearly shows he is coming before Judgement.

Firstly the experience of the believer does not trump scripture.Whether Christians in China suffer persecution or whether Christians in the west have an easy time does not influence doctrine.The doctrine comes from the scripture not from believers experience.Whether the believers experience is hard in one place or easy in an other.
Secondly persecution/tribulation is not The Great Tribulation.They are not the same thing at all.
The Great Tribulation is a specific period of time.
He cleverly like most post trib believers links the fact because we go through tribulation in this life then we must also go through The Great Tribulation.

The reason I highlight these things is not because I am a pre tribber which I am but because Post tribbers believe that their is no harmful consequence to their belief and their is ,its called bondage...

urs staff

Hi staff,

I agree that the understanding that Christians already experience enormous tribulation in this world doesn't fit for a post-tribulation argument. Although I suspect that most post-tribulation believers don't adhere to this rationale, I've certain read this argument over the years.

For one, the implication is that people who believe in a "rapture" don't believe that Christians face persecution or tribulation in this life. Or, of course, there is an underlying notion that "rapture" believers won't be ready for the "Great Tribulation" because they don't believe that they are appointed for it.

Years ago, there was a eschatology discussion in which someone voiced concern that I would become beguiled and take the "mark of the beast" and/or accept the anti-Christ as the Lord because I leaned toward a pre-tribulation "gathering" of the Bride of Christ.

It was difficult to convince some deeply concerned post-tribulation believers that I would be safe because my eyes would forever be on Jesus. No matter what was coming, I argued that my faith was unwavering. Yet, at times, it seemed like this was not enough to convince others.

I suppose that the biggest surprise was that I found many of the most vocal post-tribulation believers who said that they were previously convinced of a pre-tribulation "rapture" yet were now even more convinced of the post-tribulation timeline. Some stated that this came after "years" of studying the issue. However, I asked why they couldn't afford the same period of grace through studying the issue to those of us who lean pre-tribulation as they stated that had experienced.

Now, I do not fault those who sincerely (and after much prayerful study) embrace a post-tribulation perspective. After all, I still "lean" toward a pre-tribulation perspective myself -- fully aware that it is very possible that the Church might live through the period when God pours out His wrath on the whole world.

That's why I have made the effort to study all sides of this topic. I've studied through the Word of God on this specific topic in addition to all of my daily studying of his Word. I've seen oft-repeated claims that I went on to study carefully to determine where there was any validity.

With all sincerity, I do understand why some believers embrace the post-tribulation view. Some of the arguments do give me a few moments of pause. I even get why some embrace mid-tribulation or other views. I don't think that most of these believers that I know are in "bondage" to that post-trib or mid-trib belief or in danger either (although I 'm not impressed when anyone stakes their view as if it were the only one that matters).

In fact, there was a time in which I felt that (at least on SermonIndex) I was part of a very tiny minority opinion on leaning toward the concept of a "rapture" -- or, as I prefer to describe it, a gathering together of the Bride before the wrath of God. However, at times, there were others who would sometimes share similar views if only to show that we were not alone.

Like I said, I'm trying to write a coherent and cohesive rationale of the Scriptural reasons that I still strongly lean toward this view. It has nothing to do with believing that Christians should somehow "escape" earthly tribulation. It has nothing to do with "easy believism." It has nothing to do with any sort of influence from those silly "Left Behind" novels or films (which I have never read nor watched).

When I believed, I didn't really hold any individual's, local church's or denomination's views on eschatology. This is because I never really paid any attention to such things before I believed. I didn't really believe in God, so the thought of the Lord's return wasn't really an afterthought until the Lord began dealing with my heart in the months before I believed. So, my views are primarily influenced by what I've read in Scripture AFTER I believed. At that point, I questioned EVERYTHING (and every person) that I had ever heard or was hearing.

I'm confident that many other believers have had this same experience. As believers, we all want to seek God and believe only what is true. This is true whether we are pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib or simply unsure.

So, although I typically eschew many labels, my own study of God's Word has developed a sense regarding many of the issues that I've seen debated over and over again. Some of the debates have actually surprised me -- because there are concepts that some people have debated that I didn't know were even up for debate. Still, I believe that "iron sharpens iron." I don't mind being challenged about my views or perspectives because I should know not only what I believe but why I believe it.

Even eschatology can be discussed or even debated with conversations that are seasoned with grace. This is because those who discuss these things most often have the same love for the Lord and for the family of God. Each of us is a part of this body of Christ -- knowing that our love for one another how the world will know that we are his disciples.

Hi Muckah,
So how do you get over this issue below ignored by 99.9& of post trib believers??
Jesus said when asked about the end
As it were in the days of Noah and a it were in the days of Lot....they did eat, drink,build,sow,marry(not in lots case) given in Marriage etc UNTIL THE DAY Noah was taken in the Ark and Lot was taken out of Sodom by Angels.
Their was no Judgement until the good guys were taken out and they lived normal lives with normal activities until this happened(this could not happen in the Great Tribulation)
urs staff

Hi Chrisss,
I guess its just the free pass Zac Poonen is given by SI to say whatever he wants and then is highlighted as being an outstanding preacher on the issue of end times which he certainly is not,
urs staff

When does the pre-trib view believe the Old Testament saints will be resurrected? I'm not clear on this. I know early pre-trib in the days of Darby taught they would be raised in a pre-trib rapture but changed their teaching after being shown it contradicted scripture What is taught today?

David I am pretty certain they say at the end of tribulation (ie at the second coming) but there may be slight variations.

TMK,

I suppose you are probasbly right. So if this scenario is true, there is a pre-trib rapture at which the saints of the Christian church through the ages are resurrected and raised and meet the Lord in the air with living saints and all are changed and glorified. (I Cor 15:52).

Then, 7 or 3 & 1/2 years or so later, at the second coming, the Old Testament saints are resurrected and meet the Lord in the air and are changed and glorified.

I've always been taught that Old Testament believing saints who died in faith regarding God's future promises of a Messiah would be resurrected and glorified along with the believing saints of the New Testament era. So accordingly, why aren't they raised 7 or 3 & 1/2 years earlier with the Christian church at a pre-trib rapture? If the pre-trib theory is correct, then, one group is raised and glorified at one point and 7 years later or so, or 3 & 1/2 years according to some, the other group is resurrected and glorified. It's one thing to divide the true believing sons of light from the sons of darkness and unbelief but pre-trib divides the true believing sons of Abraham - one believing group is resurrected or raised while living and the other group (Old Testament saints) experience this later. This is an unnatura,l unscriptural division and is a major part of the reason onbe can say with confidence that these type of doctrines were never taught in church history before the 1830s.

Not even to mention the problem with the trumpets. If the last trumpet blows at a pre-trib rapture signalling a rapturer, how can it legitimately be called the last trumpet if there is still another trumpet to sound at Christ's second coming 7 or 3 & 1/2 years later at which resurrection and glorification will also occur (I Thess 4:16-17; Matt 29:31).

Excellent points- I am not familiar with counter arguments but I am sure they are out there.

The great tribulation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8On-aU5DoMQ&pp=ygUYbWFjYXJ0aHVyIG9uIHRyaWJ1bGF0aW9u

Hi Passerby,
Compare John McArthur's intro to the subject compares to Zac Poonen.Mc Arthur uses scripture from the outset as a base for his sermon where Poonen uses experience of believers as his base and his own reputation of his understanding of scripture.

Mc Arthur qoute on the Great Tribulation:

"it is worse than anything that ever happened and that would even have to encompass the Noahic Flood.This is a series of catacylsmic events that have no parallel"
And
"this is going to be an unparalleled time,its so horrible that the lord shortens it,verse 20 unless the lord had shortened those days no life would be saved for the sake of the elect whom he chose whom he chose he shortened the days!"

I would be interested to here from Post tribulation believers do they agree that the Great Tribulation is as bad as what John McArthur says?

urs staff

Staff-

If the flood was truly global and only 8 humans survived how could it be worse? Jesus was known to use hyperbole from time to time.

I’m sure those saints being tortured to death during the Inquisition thought that was pretty bad.

Hi again,
So its not that bad and just hyperbole.
Jesus isnt actually saying God will shorten the days for the sake of the elect

hyperbole :exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally
I wonder should we take Jesus death and ressurection as hyperbole?

Anybody else think thatThe Great Tribulation discription is not what John McArthur says it is?
urs staff

The days were shortened. Rome eventually withdrew their armies.

Hi TMK,
You are entitled to your view that it had historically happened but its a view that is not post tribulation and I asked what do post tribulation believers believe ?

So are their any post tribulationists who would like to comment on John McArthurs literal intrepretation on the severity of The Great Tribulation?
urs staff

Is this the same John MacArthur that denies that Muslims are being converted through dreams of the man in white?

Is this the same John MacArthur that denies that the Holy Spirit is giving out gifts today? It's one thing to say, "I don't understand tongues or prophesy" but it's an entirely different thing to condemn millions of people who do.

Is this the same John MacArthur that said, "Slavery is not objectionable if you have the right master. It’s the perfect scenario.” (???)

This is hard to believe that you aligning yourself with him.

JMAC believes that you can take the mark of the beast and still go to heaven. Also, he is amillenial.

Therefore and for the above reasons Lysa mentionend I do not take him as a credible source on eschatological matters.

How will he understand the prophesies of the bible just by mental reasoning if he in fact discredits the work of the Holy Spirit on giving prophecy for today.

You need the Holy Spirit to understand prophesy, the scribes and pharisees of their day knew scripture inside out, but still had no revelation of Christ.

The book of revelation is as it says, a revelation, and revelation is impossible without the Holy Spirit.
If you denounce the work of the Holy Spirit , how can you expect to get revelation on the inspired scriptures?

What I am after is a logical exposition on eschatology and not some compulsatory hardline doctrinal position. I guess to get a more reliable understanding of pretribulation rapture, John MacArthur is among the best to be heard as R.C. Sproul for partial preterism.

I respect them as seasoned theologians in our time like the respect I gave to my school professors. Approaching their teachings from academic viewpoint and listening diligently rather than ad hominem, gave me better insight on such difficult theological topics.

Listening on his sermons, JM believes in the millennium as stated in the book of Revelation.

You are right, sorry, I have to take back that JMAC is amillenial, I was mistaken, he is in fact pre-millenial.

A thing that perflex me are the inhabitants of the earth during the millenium, JM said that no unbelievers will survive after the great tribulation.

Now I wonder who are these:

Zechariah 14:16-17

16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.

Hi Lysa,
Passerby put a link to a video up and out of courtesy to Passerby I listened to most of it.Its the first time I heard John McArthur and know nothing about him except when I listened to it he went straight into scripture to make his point unlike Zac Poonen who you earlier defended and I commented on that.

In the middle of the video he made comments about the severity of the Great Tribulation
I posted these two comments word for word and asked is he wrong from a post tribulation point of view?

Now after addressing your deflection away from these questions ,I am again asking you is he wrong about these two specific points on the severity of the Tribulation?(not about his other views to be clear)
urs staff

The prophet Daniel is an archetype of those to whom God reveals prophesy.

1) He had an exceptional pure walk with God, not a single fault of his is recorded in the bible.
2) He stood many trials, suffered and was maligned.
3) He fasted.
4) He diligently studied the scriptures and was led by the Spirit to latch on Jeremiah's prophesy of the 70 weeks.
5) He did not make gain of his prophetic gift and refused the king's honour and reward.
6) He was an intercessor and prayed for Jerusalen and his land which was desolate and his people who were in exile.
7) As holy as he was he came under great conviction for the collective sins of his people and included himself in it.
8) He was "undone" by God and was knocked out for a time such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul and John experienced it.

God will likely reveal himself to people like Daniel.
I do not trust preachers or scholars who denounce the work of the holy spirit. How can they understand prophesy and at the same time denounce the very gift by which prophesy came about??
I do not mind Christians to be rich through their secular work. Zac Poonen does not take a penny for ministry, he could be a wealthy man if he wanted. I personally find it ok if a full time minister gets a reasonable salary but I find it shameful if they make a fortune through their ministry. You can google their net worth for yourself.

Thinking about the Great Tribulation

The question was - I would be interested to here from Post tribulation believers do they agree that the Great Tribulation is as bad as what John McArthur says?

Well Mr McArthur has skewed understanding of the Tribulation

John McArthur Quote:

The Bible spells out the doom of the human race very clearly. It spells it out in terms of a time known as the tribulation. This is the biblical time. And the tribulation ”“ and you need to mark this in your minds ”“ the tribulation is not simply the apex of natural consequences. The tribulation is the active wrath of God brought to pass in the world. It is not merely the cycle of man’s natural violation of laws coming to an end; it is God actively intervening in judgment. And God is going to judge this world, and He’s going to judge it for sin.

----

1. The Human race is doomed

Wrong - Satan and his hordes along with anyone who follows after them and does not repent are doomed.

The church (human race) that has believed in the Lord Jesus Christ is looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth.

2. The tribulation is the active wrath of God

Wrong - There is a clear difference between tribulation, which is also described as distress or trouble, and God’s wrath, which is described as God’s fury, anger and rage.

3. It is not merely the cycle of man’s natural violation of laws coming to an end; it is God actively intervening in judgment.

Wrong - In Revelation 7, John sees a great multitude from every nation, tongue and tribe, that no one can count. When asked "Who are these people?” by an elder, John answers in Revelation 7:14, "I answered, ‘Sir, you know.’ And he [the elder] said, ‘These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’”

This is a vast multitude of believers who die as martyrs under the hand of the beast. This is not God’s wrath. This is tribulation that has been faced by martyrs throughout history. The great tribulation comes from Satan’s desire to be worshipped by mankind and the beast of Revelation carrying out his plan to murder everyone who refuses.

(Judgement) - Reaping the Grapes of Wrath is when God pours out His wrath on the unrepentant during the final judgments and there will no mercy or escape.

Revelation is about about two groups of people -

1. The believers - The victorious people of (Rev 15:3) - the reward for these believers will be great for those who refuse to worship the beast, his image or his name.

Jesus says "in this world you will have trouble…”

Paul asks, "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

As it is written: ‘For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.’ Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

2. The unrepentant those who worship the beast his image and his name, during the final judgments there will be no mercy or escape.

The great tribulation is not going to be a cake walk - the church will face a great tribulation as the beast will desire to be worshipped.

But that is not the wrath of God, that will be the wrath of beast..

NP wrote "I do not trust preachers or scholars who denounce the work of the holy spirit. How can they understand prophesy and at the same time denounce the very gift by which prophesy came about??
I do not mind Christians to be rich through their secular work. Zac Poonen does not take a penny for ministry, he could be a wealthy man if he wanted. I personally find it ok if a full time minister gets a reasonable salary but I find it shameful if they make a fortune through their ministry. You can google their net worth for yourself.”

I tend to share this perspective and while I don’t judge them (anymore than you) it does give me pause. While this doesn’t necessarily disqualify someone from being used by the Lord, I can’t think of one example in the scriptures where the person ministering the gospel took anything more than below average as they didn’t seem to regard the things of this world in the same way the modern evangelical church does,… I wonder how much this affects our understanding of the word. I do believe the Lord has "Daniel’s” and other "types” of ministers and they hear Him clearly because they receive the ministry of the Holy Spirit as you say.

It does seem to be an interesting time we find ourselves in, and my response is to pray for JM to get baptized with the Holy Ghost 🙏🏻

Thank you for pointing out the elephant in the room 🙏🏻

"The great tribulation is not going to be a cake walk - the church will face a great tribulation as the beast will desire to be worshipped.

But that is not the wrath of God, that will be the wrath of beast..”

It’s vitally important for us to remember this ☝🏼
because if we don’t, our faith will not withstand it-
If we allow ourselves to neglect our salvation to such an extent we don’t know wether it is God or Satan causing a thing, then we will inevitably subject ourselves to crisis when we are called to rest ✝️ how can we overcome by a testimony of panic ?? Not a chance, and this is not a joke-

Look around at this world and see the depth of corruption even now in the small town where we live, there are children in the public school system that "think”they are cats and dogs …. They crawl around and mostly only make animal sounds, wearing collars and leashes. In one school near by in an even smaller town, I was told they installed litter boxes because cats don’t use toilets -

This is a dehumanization, a mockery of children who were created in the image and likeness of God. We know the enemy is behind it for he is the author of confusion.
The world is presently drowning in a sea of confusion and we are called to be lights, set on a hill, we can’t be lights to a dark world if we are responding in the same manner as the unbelieving 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time. Rev 12:12

Just in case anyone doesn't understand why I said the statement below .

But that is not the wrath of God, that will be the wrath of beast..”