Netanyahu Tells Israel 'We Are at War' After Unprecedented Hamas Attack

Palestinian Islamist group Hamas launched the biggest attack on Israel in years on Saturday, killing more than 40 people and wounding hundreds in a surprise assault that combined gunmen crossing into Israel with a barrage of rockets fired from Gaza.
Israel said the Iran-backed group had declared war as its army confirmed fighting with militants in several Israeli towns and military bases near Gaza and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed to retaliate.

"Our enemy will pay a price the type of which it has never known," he said. "We are in a war and we will win it."

At least 40 Israelis were killed in the attack so far, Israel's ambulance service said. Around 770 Israelis had been wounded, the health ministry said.

The Israeli military said it had responded with air strikes into Gaza, where witnesses reported hearing heavy explosions and multiple dead being carried into hospitals.

The attack marked an unprecedented infiltration into Israel by an unknown number of Hamas gunmen crossing from the Gaza Strip, and the heaviest blow for Israel in the conflict with Palestinians since the suicide bombings of the Second Intifada some two decades ago.

The militant Islamic Jihad group said it had joined the attacks and was holding several Israeli soldiers captive and Hamas social media accounts showed footage of what were said to be Israeli captives being taken alive into Gaza.

The Israeli military has declined to comment on the reports but has not denied them either, saying it would address the reports later.

Israeli broadcaster Reshet 13 TV News said militants were holding Israelis hostage in the town of Ofakim, and that five Palestinian militants had been killed in the town of Sderot and homes had been set on fire.

Israeli media reported gunbattles between bands of Palestinian fighters and security forces in towns in southern Israel. Israel's police chief said there were "21 active scenes" in southern Israel.

In Gaza, people rushed to buy supplies in anticipation of days of conflict ahead. Some evacuated their homes and headed for shelters.

Hamas military commander Mohammad Deif announced the start of the operation in a broadcast on Hamas media, calling on Palestinians everywhere to fight.

"This is the day of the greatest battle to end the last occupation on earth," he said, adding that 5,000 rockets had been launched.

Israel and Hamas fought a 10-day war in 2021.

'PLEASE SEND HELP'

Speaking to Israel N12 News by phone from Nir Oz, a kibbutz near Gaza, a woman identified as Dorin said militants had infiltrated her house and tried to open the bomb shelter where she was hiding.

"They just came in again, please send help," she said. "There are a lot of homes harmed ... My husband is holding the door closed ... They are firing rounds of bullets."

Israeli Defence Minister Gallant said "troops are fighting against the enemy at every location" and authorized the call-up of reservists.

Israeli media reported that gunmen had opened fire on passers-by in Sderot, and footage circulating on social media appeared to show clashes in city streets as well as gunmen in jeeps roaming the countryside.

"We were told there are terrorists inside the kibbutz, we can hear gunfire," a young woman named Dvir, from Beeri Kibbutz, told Israeli Army Radio from her bomb shelter.

BACKDROP OF SURGING VIOLENCE

The escalation comes against a backdrop of surging violence between Israel and Palestinian militants in the West Bank, which together with the Gaza Strip is part of the territories where Palestinians have long sought to establish a state.

It also comes at a time of political upheaval in Israel, which has been riven by deep divisions over moves to overhaul the judiciary, and as Washington works to strike a deal that would normalize ties between Israel and Saudi Arabia.

The Iran-backed Lebanese group Hezbollah said the operation was a "decisive response to Israel's continued occupation and a message to those seeking normalization with Israel."

An adviser to Iran's Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei congratulated Palestinian fighters for the attack.

Hamas media displayed videos of what it said were bodies of Israeli soldiers brought into Gaza by fighters, and Palestinian gunmen inside Israeli homes and touring an Israeli town in jeeps reportedly been driven into Israel by the attackers.

Reuters was not immediately able to verify the footage.

Hamas media also circulated video footage apparently showing a destroyed Israeli tank.

In Gaza, the roar of rocket launches could be heard and residents reported armed clashes along the separation fence with Israel, near the southern town of Khan Younis, and said they had seen significant movement of armed fighters.

Palestinians in Gaza were bracing for Israel's response.

"We are afraid," Palestinian woman, Amal Abu Daqqa, told Reuters as she left her house in Khan Younis.

Others in Gaza expressed disbelief at the infiltration into Israel. "It is like a dream. I still can't believe it," said one Gaza shopkeeper.

The attack came a day after Israel marked the 50th anniversary of the 1973 war that brought the country to the verge of catastrophic defeat in a surprise attack by Syria and Egypt.

Newsmax

From Stuart Greaves:

URGENT PRAYER ALERT FOR ISRAEL today at 4pm Israel time. 9am EST 8am CST, 6PT

The ICEJ urgently calls on Christians worldwide to pray and intercede for the people of Israel as they face a massive surprise infiltration of Hamas terrorist commandoes from Gaza into southern Israel and waves of rocket barrages on the south and center of the country. Judging by early reports and phone videos, dozens if not hundreds of fully armed Hamas commandoes have made it into the Gaza border communities in Sderot and the surrounding farming villages and are shooting civilians and taking hostages. They came in trucks and on motorcycles and overwhelmed IDF soldiers at the border crossings before crossing into Israel, while others flew over the border fence on paragliders. This morning is Simchat Torah, the last of the high holy days, and all Israel was at rest for the Shabbat when sirens were heard all across the southern half of the country warning of rocket barrages from Gaza. The more serious concern now is for all the Israeli communities along the border where terrorists have been shooting and taking hostages, while the IDF was slow to respond to such a massive, well-planned surprise attack. The hostage situations that will likely emerge from these shocking developments could be a painful experience and we urge all Christians to pray for Israel’s deliverance from this tragic situation. The ICEJ just took nearly 700 Christians to these same communities for a solidarity visit two days ago, and all our friends we met there are in serious danger. One of our speakers at that rally has even informed us this morning that it is a "disaster” in the area, so PLEASE PRAY WITH US IN URGENT Global Prayer Gathering TODAY 4PM!:

URGENT PRAYER ALERT FOR ISRAEL today at 4pm Israel time. 9am EST 8am CST, 6PT

Pray for my friends as they say they have a milatry lockdown
Pray for kol mid bar church and all the churches in Israel

URGENT PRAYER ALERT FOR ISRAEL today:

The ICEJ urgently calls on Christians worldwide to pray and intercede for the people of Israel as they face a massive surprise infiltration of Hamas terrorist commandoes from Gaza into southern Israel and waves of rocket barrages on the south and center of the country. Judging by early reports and phone videos, dozens if not hundreds of fully armed Hamas commandoes have made it into the Gaza border communities in Sderot and the surrounding farming villages, shooting civilians and taking hostages.
They came in trucks and motorcycles and overwhelmed IDF soldiers at the border crossings before crossing into Israel, while others flew over the border fence on paragliders.

This morning is Simchat Torah, the last of the high holy days, and all Israel was at rest for the Shabbat when sirens were heard all across the southern half of the country warning of rocket barrages from Gaza. The more serious concern now is for all the Israeli communities along the border where terrorists have been shooting and taking hostages, while the IDF was slow to respond to such a massive, well-planned surprise attack. The hostage situations that will likely emerge from these shocking developments could be a painful experience and we urge all Christians to pray for Israel’s deliverance from this tragic situation.
The ICEJ just took nearly 700 Christians to these same communities for a solidarity visit two days ago, we have been asked to pray for those in the area who are in serious danger. Contacts have informed us this morning that it is a "disaster” in the area, so PLEASE PRAY WITH US IN URGENT Global Prayer for Israel.

IHOP

Israel At War

https://fb.watch/nxgfX1aWkl/?mibextid=TFl8gu

I hear you. Standing with you. These don't appear to be allegorical, symbolical events to me.

This could be the most significant event in any of our lifetimes, something myself and many others have been called false prophets for preaching over the span of almost 20 years (around the time of the early 2000 conflicts).

I hope I'm wrong, but I would highly encourage everyone to brace themselves, this could very rapidly end up on all of our door steps very soon, in the form of Jewish refugees needing our witness and help.

Just last month the current administration shipped military equipment to Palestine and less than a month later we have this 🤔
If you’ve followed this pattern, since taking office in ‘21, the practice of giving both monies and military hardware to both sides has been consistently reported on in the press.
It’s not a matter of if but when this was going to go hot,… especially with the uncertainty regarding the current political climate-

What I’m not sure about is why Netanyahu approved the sale of arms to PA in the first place 🤔
I’ve read the reports in the press but something isn’t right-

//These don't appear to be allegorical, symbolical events to me.//

???

Unfortunately these types of events have been fairly steady over the years.

President Biden just gave the evil Islamic regime of Iran $6 billion, and we know that Iran is one of the chief players in the attacks on Israel by Hamas. Their goal is to destroy Israel and the U.S. A.

Good luck with that.

"The priority of the operation is to protect Jerusalem and the Al-Aqsa Mosque to stop the plans of the Zionist occupation that aim to Judaize them and to crush all the plans of the Zionist regime to build their alleged Third Temple of Solomon on the ruins of the first mosque for Muslims Al- Aqsa or near it."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/07/met-increases-patrols-in-london-after-reports-of-israel-attack-celebrations

"Make no mistake, this is a terrifying time for Jews all around the world" -ibid

The church needs to be the church it was saved to be towards Israel, now more than ever; and this cultural charismatic nonsense we allow to pass under the false sense of "grace" towards "brethren who are different then us" is the exact sort of sentimentality and soulish debauchery that will be swept away with the strength of Israel, except unlike Israel, there will be no resurrection of dry bones for an apostate church.

//"The priority of the operation is to protect Jerusalem and the Al-Aqsa Mosque to stop the plans of the Zionist occupation that aim to Judaize them and to crush all the plans of the Zionist regime to build their alleged Third Temple of Solomon on the ruins of the first mosque for Muslims Al- Aqsa or near it."//

I certainly don’t agree with anything Hamas does but how can any Christian want another temple rebuilt? Jesus wanted the temple torn down and in fact saw to it.

Hi TMK,
Whether Jesus wanted the temple to be torn down is not mentioned ,he was just stating fact and wasnt commenting on what he wanted at all.

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 "Do you see all these things?” he asked. "Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
Your Qoute
Jesus wanted the temple torn down and in fact saw to it

urs staff

Psalm 83: 1-5, 13-18
Prayer to Frustrate Conspiracy Against Israel
A Song. A Psalm of Asaph.
1Do not keep silent, O God!
Do not hold Your peace,
And do not be still, O God!
2For behold, Your enemies make a tumult;
And those who hate You have lifted up their head.
3They have taken crafty counsel against Your people,
And consulted together against Your sheltered ones.
4They have said, "Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation,
That the name of Israel may be remembered no more.”
5For they have consulted together with one consent;
They form a confederacy against You:

13O my God, make them like the whirling dust,
Like the chaff before the wind!
14As the fire burns the woods,
And as the flame sets the mountains on fire,
15So pursue them with Your tempest,
And frighten them with Your storm.
16Fill their faces with shame,
That they may seek Your name, O Lord.
17Let them be confounded and dismayed forever;
Yes, let them be put to shame and perish,
18That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord,
Are the Most High over all the earth.

Staff-

Jesus came in Judgment on Jerusalem in 70 AD, just like God came against Jerusalem via Assyrians and Babylon.

The only temple God wants is the body of Christ.

Please listen to the message by Lance Lambert "The Battle Over Israel”. You will see God’s purpose for Israel and the Church, and why Satan is working overtime to destroy the nation of Israel.

The Battle Over Israel - Lance Lambert

https://youtu.be/M9Oz-hhr0u4?si=C7Uw7WFxsHnUwFvI

I listened to part of Lance Lambert's sermon on the Battle over Israel. I will listen to the rest. I did stop to post this observation and question. First, he likens the suffering of the Jews to the suffering of Christians and concludes since Christian suffering is not about judgement then how can Jewish suffering be about judgment. What seems lacking in his analysis is that the suffering that God brings into two different lives can be the same but have two motives and two different desired or intended results. God brings some suffering in as a judgment for defiance and rebellion. The same suffering can be brought into a Christian's life though and it is designed specifically to correct or train in righteousness. Same suffering like persecution or hate of others. Thus, it is entirely not shocking that God could punish the Jews in judgemnt for rejecting Jesus with the persecution by the Romans and the destruction of Jerusalem while at the same time bring about Roman persecution of Christians and bring about Christian maturity and Christian love as the intended testimony and response.

I don't understand Brother Lamber's confusion on this. Additionally, I'm really shocked that Staff would suggest Jesus didn't intend to judge Israel in the destruction of Israel. First, all judgement has been given to the Son. Second, Jesus tells the Jews to repent or they will suffer the same fate as those Jews who had been crushed by the falling of the tower of Siloam and that the Romans would drink their blood as they had others. Just as Jesus warns Christians in Revelation to come out from Babylon or they would suffer the same plagues as Babylon in judgment. Just as Jesus came to Abraham to announce He would destroy Sodom. Jesus is the judge of the whole earth, the living and the dead and the destruction of Jerusalem, as Todd says, is a judgment by Jesus of an apostate Israel who rejected God's son. Jesus said as much in the parable of the Vineyard owner when He clearly says that those who rejected the vineyard owners' son would be destroyed and the vineyard would be given to the gentiles.

My question is this, how do others see the destruction of Jerusalem as coming from Jesus (through the Romans) ? Is this some kind of eschatology trigger or something? Im really confused if anyone sees it as some random event. Especially as Jesus says he came preaching in the manner of Jonah who preached of coming judgement ( 40 days and maybe a coincidence, Jerusalem 40 years).

"Unfortunately these types of events have been fairly steady over the years."
"It’s not a matter of if but when this was going to go hot,…"

We should try and see the bigger picture in all this.
We can't just come to conclusions based on yesterday's events and News reports.

The great commission of the church hasn't changed
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you..

Markus

/I certainly don’t agree with anything Hamas does but how can any Christian want another temple rebuilt? Jesus wanted the temple torn down and in fact saw to it./

/The only temple God wants is the body of Christ./

You probably won't like this TMK, so I apologize up front. But it's obvious you still possess a basic misunderstanding of the issue. You may say you have looked into and studied the issue but really? What I mean is, of course the temple Jesus wants is the body of Christ. That's not news or a fresh revelation just now understood. No Christian who believes the nation of Israel will be deeply involved in the events of the end-time before Jesus comes wants or desires another temple to be rebuilt. It's their understanding from prophecy that this rebuilding will be a vain attempt by still unsaved Jews to please the God of their fathers. It won't be acceptable to God and will not work. That's very far from continuing to spread the false caricature that many Christians want to see another temple built because they don't yet perceive the full implications that the body of Christ is now the spiritual temple that God occupies. You may disagree with the prophetic view that believes another physical temple will be rebuilt but it's false to say Christians will approve of it. It's just something they believe will happen. While the body of Christ remains something the temple of God. To maintain otherwise is to willingly ignore the truth of the issue by asking questions such as, "How can any Christian want another temple rebuilt?" Such questions betray the fact the fact that you still don't understand the issue or understand it and have chosen to ignore the many explanations already given.

David-

Not sure exactly what you mean but many Christian’s are actively working to help insure a temple is rebuilt and that is a fact. That’s what I was referencing. I am not suggesting most Christians want this let’s just call it a significant minority.

I understand that some folks see it in prophecy and I get that and I’m not saying it can’t or won’t happen. I just think it will be a sad day if it does. Heb. 9.

CofG,

The purpose of God in Israels final judgment (Jacobs trouble) is partially to reveal the true church from the apostate church, just as it has throughout history. Don't be surprised when a sentimental profession of Christ is rocked by the reality of God's judgment to bring His covenanted people to utter brokenness and death, in order to further His eternal purpose of Israels final and glorious resurrection. The repentance and turning of Israel to their Messiah is in fact not only the purpose of God in these last days, but also the purpose of the Church since it's inception. Sadly, most Christians stand outside the Fathers house and decry this reality in jealous zeal, thinking they have some special standing with God because they have been with Him this whole time. They are unable to comprehend the lengths the Father is willing to go to in order to bring the prodigal home.

The issue of the Jew is the issue of the Church, and the apostate religion claiming Jesus will always boast against the Jew, and forget that to do so will reveal the truth of their profession. The Christian and Jew are not on equal terms, gentiles are grafted in for a purpose, to serve as an instrument of God in the salvation of Israel. But misguided and prophetically illiterate teachers, preachers and false prophets will conveniently forget entire portions of scripture in order to cater to the sentimentality and "feelings" of gentile believers who are just "older brothers" complaining at the centrality of the prodigal and the Fathers concern for him.

The centrality of Israel in the eternal purposes and covenants of God will always sift the church. The mystery of God is that we as gentiles have been made partakers of what belongs to Israel, and what belongs to Israel will be made manifest through judgment and final restoration, which is why the true church of Jesus must be present on earth through Jacobs trouble (the tribulation period), as it is God's instrument to demonstrate finally to the principalities and powers the manifold wisdom of God, and bring Israel, Gods covenanted people, to final and glorious resurrection.

When this happens, the wheat and tares will be made so glaringly obvious that no one, no matter what theological or eschatological view they preach and cling to, will be able to deny who belongs to Jesus and who doesn't. The wisdom of God is beyond understanding and glorious, and all things will culminate in this glorious chess game of history and all will realize and bow the knee to the glorious and all wise God, who will accomplish His purposes no matter the the opposition and denial of those same purposes by soulish and sentimental religionists.

Hi Tmk ,
I wasnt pointing out the obvious that God wants the body of Christ as his temple but that your analysis of what Jesus wanted regarding the physical Jewish Temple wasnt based on scripture,urs staff

ESchaible,

I'm not sure how your response is a response to what I posted. Perhaps what I said led you to believe I don't believe in the return of the Jewish people ( in part ) to Jesus after the "fullness of the Gentiles" is accomplished. I do believe in that historical event. I am merely commenting that the judgement of Israel in 70 AD was by Jesus. Just as Israel was cast out of the land by Babylon and Assyria and then returned, the Jewish people were dispersed and in some sense enslaved to other nations by the Romans. God's ultimate purpose for them though, as Paul said, will be attained. Romans 9-11 is clear on these things. We are all, Jew and Gentile alike part of the one tree. We were grafted in and they as broken off branches will be brought back in upon repentance.

CofG,

On no, I gathered as much. I was more just adding to what you said, in agreement with you regarding the modern sentimental views of God and His dealings with Israel. Namely, the views that remove any idea of judgment in the modern age.

Also, I wanted you to know others also believe as you do, because if these times prove to be those times, we will have to stand together for the Jew, in authenticity and reality, not some Sunday mirage of hope that will, with Israel, be decimated and judged.

Thanks E,

Thanks the supporting Biblical words. Here’s a passage for one who doubts that Jesus would be judging the Jews for their refusal to receive Him and His people:

1 Thess 2:

14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

This was spoken and concerned judgment that even occurred prior to 70 AD. Notice it was spoken of by Paul who at the same time had anguish for his brethren in the flesh and hoped to provoke them to jealousy through his ministry to the Gentiles of salvation.

add:

Btw, it seems entirely probable that God, among a few motives like getting the gospel to the nations, drove his people out of Jerusalem in the first years of the church. He wanted the gospel spread but it is likewise likely that He was driving them out because of the impending judgment and destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. "That generation" would see the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple that they trusted in instead of trusting in Jesus, the true temple of God.

It may not mean much ultimately, but the IDF minister said the Hamas attack was the worst day in "Israeli history”. Sad.

Yeah, they are calling it the Israeli states 9/11. Horrific and trying times ahead for them, and I believe the world as well.

It's been said, as goes Israel so goes the world. If anything is to trigger a worldwide conflict, this is more apt to do so then anything between Russia and Ukraine.

I don't think Netanyahu is going to let this one slide in any way shape or form. He is on record saying "Israel is going to change the middle east". Sadly, Islam will make sure it's changed to their benefit, along with the world I think.

On a side note, wouldn't be just like God to usher in the revival everyone has been asking for via the time of Jacobs trouble? Revival via persecution rather than soulish charismatic tropes. Revival through sifting and trial seems to be the only way a true revival could happen in the world we live in today anyhow.

So now President Biden is wanting Israel to halt its ground attack into Gaza. Netanyahu says we won’t do that, and Hamas said that if Israel goes into Gaza that they will kill the hostages.

What the Church can do is to pray!

This is quite the convoluted situation and we would do well to seek the Lord before making emotionally charged declarations or showing support for such.
These calls by prominent political figures and media personalities to effectively genocide 2,000,000 people are not going to help bring clarity to the situation, no matter how loud they scream it or how many joins in chorus.
Likewise the dehumanization taking place through egregious characterizations all throughout media are only going to serve to further justify the unjustifiable.

None of this is by accident nor happenstance-
We can’t have it both ways, where the current administration, with its cabinet made up of mostly (70% or so) Israeli citizens, along with BN, approved the giving of monies and weapons to PA just a month ago.
That’s not to mention billions to Iran and $85,000,000,000 in military hardware to the Taliban.
This is a manufactured crisis and it has an obvious end in mind…

These same people have filled France, Germany, Italy, Ireland, England, USA, etc… with millions of mostly military age men. This is not by accident but by design-
With WEF’s repeated warnings of a crippling cyberattack that takes out infrastructure, (much like how they warned of a "global pandemic” in the year before Covid) it would be assumed that "IF” something like that happened, the millions of "immigrants” would be activated to engage the legal inhabitants/citizens and by the time the lights are back on,…. Well you get the picture.
And for whatever reason[s] these same people fear Donald Trump like something out of a comic book and have repeatedly demonstrated that they will lie, cheat, steal, and kill to achieve their ends, without care nor concern for who gets injured along the way. In their view, the end’s clearly justify the means (whatever they may be) 🤔

It is not a coincidence that the Lord led intercessors all over the world to participate in 21 days of praying and fasting for Israel. The Lord saw what was coming, and we know that the fervent prayers of the righteous avails much. I
Appreciate this ministry participating in the Isaiah 62 Fast.

"As a ministry SermonIndex.net is joining with the Isaiah 62 Fast where many churches and ministries (millions of believerS) are joining together for prayer for Israel for 21 days. I believe this is a significant time to enter into this prayer time with godly humility and the fear of the Lord to pray into His purpose for Israel and the world." - Greg Gordon, Founder of SermonIndex.net

AbideInHim,

What exactly were people fasting and praying to accomplish? I saw these calls to public fasting and prayer (the correctness and theology of the public fast aside). I never saw what it was for. The point of prayer is the answer, so what exactly was the request?

Because if it is for the fulfillment of Isaiah 62 before the final judgment of Israel, Jacobs trouble/great tribulation, there is absolutely no point to that praying and fasting, it is prophecy. I know I will be called a heretic for saying any praying is a waste of time, but praying for any restoration of the physical kingdom of Israel, or the salvation of the Jewish nation before the appointed time, is in fact a waste of effort. Pray rather that the church is brought to a place to speak the words of, and live in the power of resurrection towards the Jewish people so that when they are brought to a death that can result in resurrection glory, the prophetic fulfillment can come forth in dry bones regaining life.

Has it occured to you that God's purpose for Israel in the last days is judgment and death that leads to resurrection and final salvation, and that praying to see some touchy feely outcome for a secular state and temporary border of land is in fact against the purposes of God?

Maybe I'm completely missing something in scripture, but these facts are almost as clear as the gospel from Genesis to the Revelation...

I guess my concern is if the Lord led them, than why exactly did they need massive social media and online promotional campaigns to make sure everyone knew, and where is the answer? Unless of course war was the request... or if it was a vague prayer for His purposes to be fulfilled, was this what you expected as the answer? Sometimes uninformed and zealous prayer will, in God's mercy yield answer, but ironically those that pray are not at all expecting the answers they receive, because their God, or their view of God doesn't allow for it.

/On a side note, wouldn't be just like God to usher in the revival everyone has been asking for via the time of Jacobs trouble? Revival via persecution rather than soulish charismatic tropes. Revival through sifting and trial seems to be the only way a true revival could happen in the world we live in today anyhow./

My opinion is not the one that the world revolve around, but I think this is likely more true than wrong. The current almost omnipresent cries for revival almost never if at all mention a final time of trouble. It's almost as if revival comes, it will somehow enable the church to navigate around what is coming. In their exhortations to seek revival, a final world engulfing time of trouble of great tribulation at the end of the age is not on a lot of radars. Meanwhile, many Christians don't even know what the time of Jacob's trouble is. Many who may know relegate it to a time of the past and already having occurred. Many also say the Jewish people have been replaced in God's overall plan of redemption and the nation of Isarel and its inhabitants have no prophetic relevance even though the writings of the Jewish prophets reveal the Jewish people and nation and the controversy of the land will play a significantly central role in the end days It's good that Daniel the prophet proclaimed that in the end many will turn again to the writings of the prophets as they seek to understand the perilous time they will find themselves in. Great trial and great sifting are ahead. I believe this.

Thank you for your input.

//Because if it is for the fulfillment of Isaiah 62 before the final judgment of Israel, Jacobs trouble/great tribulation, there is absolutely no point to that praying and fasting, it is prophecy.//

Quite frankly it’s your interpretation of a prophecy, so it’s always a good idea to pray. Always.

No one can be 100% certain that their interpretation of an OT prophecy (or even NT for that matter) is correct.

So should we pray? You bet.

Brother, why are you critical about fasting and praying for Israel when you do not understand the purpose of the Isaiah 62 fast?

Night and day prayer for the nation of Israel is God’s idea as it is declared in scripture.

"On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed [set, KJV] watchmen; all day and all night
they will never keep silent. You [intercessors] who remind the LORD, take no rest for yourselves;
And give Him no rest until He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth [at Jesus’ return]”. (Isa. 62:6-7, NAS)

https://ihopeg.org/isaiah62-fast

AbideInHim,

"you do not understand the purpose of the Isaiah 62 fast"

You're correct, I made that pretty clear actually. But it seems neither do you... what is the purpose?

Before you just requote Isaiah 62, please tell me what it means to you, because that's the actual request in the praying, not the quoted scripture.

To reiterate my initial question:

What exactly were people fasting and praying to accomplish? I saw these calls to public fasting and prayer (the correctness and theology of the public fast aside). I never saw what it was for. The point of prayer is the answer, so what exactly was the request?

TMK,
I don't subscribe to relativism regarding prophecy. I cannot be sure, but the Holy Spirit can be, and I say with Paul, "I think I too have the Holy Spirit".

"you do not understand the purpose of the Isaiah 62 fast"

You're correct, I made that pretty clear actually. But it seems neither are you... what is the purpose?
//////////////////////////////

Did you click on Mike's link to it?

21 Days / 24/7 Fasting and Prayer
(The Purpose:) God's Purposes for Israel

Click on the link, brother and read all about it.

Re: something isn’t right …(JFW)

Even some Israelis have come to the same conclusion, they don't believe everything anymore what their own government is telling them.
After a bit more reading I believe the initial Hamas attack could well have been a new "Pearl Harbor" and grow into something bigger and quite serious.
For a prominent US politician to tell Israel: "finish them" is a call for genocide. Lord help us !

Maranatha - may the Lord come soon !

Markus

"Of all the competing views, the one that most insults and slights the sacred trust of the canon, and the Reformed doctrine of the perspicuity of scripture, is the lazy indifference that comfortably proclaims that it is impossible to know much that is definite or certain when it comes to eschatology."

Of all the competing views, the one that most insults and slights the sacred trust of the canon, and the Reformed doctrine of the perspicuity of scripture, is the lazy indifference that comfortably proclaims that it is impossible to know much that is definite or certain when it comes to eschatology

"Perspicuity” - The quality of being clear and easy to understand. (From Cambridge English dictionary)

I learned something new today, thanks dear brother David!

Even so, neither reformed doctrine nor eschatology falls into the category of perspicuity for me, let alone the entirety of the scriptures.

Even so, the scriptures are precious, and through them may the Holy Spirit continue to reveal to each one of us the way, the truth and the life, Christ Jesus himself.

Definitely remaining prayerful with you all in these times!❤️🙏

Lysa,

The purposes of God... so vague it doesn't even merit answer honestly. The Lord's prayer adequately covers this in the clause, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

When everyone prayed and fasted for the purposes of God to be accomplished towards Israel, what were you praying and fasting for?

I'm realizing most people don't even know God's purposes for Israel, and perhaps have no clue what they are even praying for. I wonder if this will lead to part of the great apostasy... if it hasn't already.

Docs,
I like that quote. While I myself may not be certain of some minor details here and there, the issue of Israel has been crystal clear to me for many, many years. It has been a thorn in my side and the source of alot of persecution and misunderstanding from the church, but nevertheless, let God be true and and every man a liar.

Also, a right understanding of Israel aligns eschatology in a very easy to understand way, so much so that I have often marvelled at how far off even applauded scholars end up solely based on this one thing. To understand Israel and it's place with God is to rightly understand much of the mysteries of God.

Paul prayed in Ro 10:1

Brothers,[a] my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.

He was hated and persecuted by his own kinsmen more than anyone else, but he prayed for them with much longing and consistency. He went to great lengths to organize a love offering for them.

No one knew the mystery of Israel better than him. If he prayed so much for them, we might as well pray for Israel as he did.

"Lord, we long for our brothers to cry out to you in their distress. We mourn with those who mourn. Let them know that there is forgiveness and healing in Yeshua ha Meshiah.
Give them wisdom and restraint how to deal with their enemy.
Work among the Arabs that they will turn to the true God. Protect the hostages, let them encounter miracles that they be rescued. As the world will again turn against them, let them realize that it was you who rescued them time and again. Let the messianic fellowship among them minister their faith to their distressed and enraged fellow kinsmen.
Amen."

Yes I’m thinking the same from what I’ve observed and even here on SI in this thread,… where are the calls to prayer for all our Christian brothers and sisters in the affected region, wether Israel, Syria, Palestine, etc..??

Me thinks sometimes people let their emotions run, not being constrained or even influenced by the Holy Ghost,.. it is as if Israel (on a map) or its inhabitants were the object of worship, else how could a member of the body of Christ call for the wholesale slaughter of innocent life in response to the wholesale slaughter of innocent life and remain a member without public repentance ?
Yet we don’t even find the slightest rebuke against what is an affront to the gospel of Christ!??

Please I implore you who have, to pause and seek the Lords face before casting your lot because its likely you would see it differently if you and your families were being characterized as the "bad guys” facing annihilation. Tho Jesus and His followers knew well what that felt like -

Point is, when Christians are attacked and slaughtered, as they are in the Armenian genocide that’s been taking place, I have not witnessed one thread or call to prayer and fasting tho the scriptures demand it 🤔

We are not Israelites, we are Christians ✝️
Yet we, by and large, seem to value Jewish lives above all else if they are in Israel (on a map) -
Can someone, anyone direct me to the NT passage that suggests this practice much less commands it ?

"because sin will abound, the love of many will grow cold.”

"Point is, when Christians are attacked and slaughtered, as they are in the Armenian genocide that’s been taking place, I have not witnessed one thread or call to prayer and fasting tho the scriptures demand it "

Brother, A call for Prayer has been mentioned several times on this thread.

URGENT PRAYER ALERT FOR ISRAEL today:

The ICEJ urgently calls on Christians worldwide to pray and intercede for the people of Israel as they face a massive surprise infiltration of Hamas terrorist commandoes from Gaza into southern Israel and waves of rocket barrages on the south and center of the country.

"The ICEJ just took nearly 700 Christians to these same communities for a solidarity visit two days ago, we have been asked to pray for those in the area who are in serious danger. Contacts have informed us this morning that it is a "disaster” in the area, so PLEASE PRAY WITH US IN URGENT Global Prayer for Israel.”

IHOP

I don't know about others on the forum but I have always believed that all the Jews who were approved by God were looking forward to a city built by God and not made by human hands. That is the definition of simple saving faith in Hebrews 11. Peter tells the diaspora to hasten the day of the coming of the New Heavens and the New Earth and the appearing of Jesus and to put their hope/confidence COMPLETELY on that grace to be revealed at His appearing.

If physical Israel is in God's will to be restored and Jerusalem is to be a praise in all the earth, God's will be done. I love the Jewish people. I am praying along with them for peace and wisdom, for God to move, to protect and safeguard.

What I struggle with is that the promised land, the Messiah, and the future home of God's people is opaquely described in much of prophesy from the OT. But one theme is clear, the Jewish people regrettably got very confused by OT prophesy and stumbled to their loss over their temporal view of the coming Messiah and His Kingdom and the one that actually came and is coming as they pursued it but not by faith (see Hebrews 11 below).

The tension that I see in much of eschatology over interpretation of end times has much to do with the point of view of God's people looking forward to a reformed earth or a new earth. If all, including OT Jews, had simple faith in a new city, a New Jerusalem, a city waiting to descend from heaven, I think God would not be ashamed to call us His people. It's not my point of view, God said this very clearly and without ambiguity:

Hebrews 11:13-16
New International Version

13 All these people (OT Jews approved by God) were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country””a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

As for fasting, Jesus said His people would fast when He departed in a show of mourning for the Bridegroom's soon return. How about a "Maranatha fast" that is recurring until His return. That doesn't in any way preclude a fast for God to intervene in Israel today.

People are suffering now, Jewish people, Christians, innocents. It's going to only get worse for everyone as everything the Lord has foretold in terms of evil being unleashed is accelerated. There is no doubt evil is accelerating, expanding and greatly intensifying as people are given over and consciences seared and deception is pervasive. Jesus and the Apostles said pray constantly that we might stand in the evil day and not be deceived , not fall away and not be distracted. God's people, generally, need a lot of Gethsemane prayer right now and fasting with prayer and loud cries as Jesus prayed for protection from the evil one and the strength to overcome are essential to God's people surviving what is soon and very soon.

I'm sure many stopped reading this post long ago, but I'm praying that our eyes would be stayed on Jesus, that we would be looking forward to the joy set before us and endure suffering with love and joy full of glory to God. We need a lot of Spirit and focus to do that. It's going to be an extreme testing of faith now in the heavenly promise of a new city and true home.

AbideInHim,

I think the point we are trying to make is that these calls to prayer and fasting are misguided and vague to the point of meaninglessness.

Obviously we are to pray for those who are subjected to these types of violence, but the situation we are watching unfold is of prophetic significance and needs to be approached with this mindset.

To pray into this situation as an intercessor is not to pray more fervently than normal, or to fast. An intercessor is one who identifies with the object of their praying, to the point where they would wish themselves accursed from Christ for the answer to their prayers. An intercessor is one who himself will take the load, and sacrifice literally anything and everything in identification with their object of prayer, and will not relent in this cross bearing and dying until the prayer is answered. THIS is intercession, not fervency or tears, fasting or public calls to piety.

We have so lost what it means to intercede that we can honestly say their are millions of intercessors in the world and there is no move of God... the Father, through one intercessor, His Son, changed the course of eternity. We are to walk as Jesus walked, who on the cross patterned intercession for us, and bade us, take up your cross and follow me.

Vague prayer and sentimental emotion will avail nothing, because these things are not intercession. When Israel sees a true intercessor church, we will see that church speak the words of resurrection and the dry bones will live.

Just like the church needs a deep death in order to see true resurrection power in the spirit, scripture clearly states that Israel will see this same death and destruction in order to for the final glory of Jacob to be shown forth from a true and heavenly kingdom, ushered in when the king of king sets every knee to earth in obesiance.

This present state of Israel and it's fleshly defenses and humanistic agendas is what will be judged and ultimately flattened by a loving God. The purpose of God for Israel is that we, the church, manifest a type and quality of living and witness that is able to provoke them to jealousy by demonstrating the living God to them, in the resurrection power of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

The church, we, must realize that there is none sufficient for these things, except the living God.

God pleads with you to come to the cross and die to religious and soulish tropes and cliches and see the reality of the situation as He sees it, not as some news agency reports it or some humanistic and manipulative, sentimentally driven Christianity holds it up as just another way to bring a coin to the coffer, or an eye to their fleshly influence. You're good is in fact the enemy to God's eternal purpose in this situation, because the only answer for an end times Jew is a church walking in authentic, resurrected glory of the indwelling Jesus... and transversely that is the only hope for any revival.

Would that this could come any other way than judgment, but plain scripture, and everything the Lord has spoken to me says otherwise. We are to come along side the Jew in resurrection power as redemptive judgment falls and the world is thrust into the final upheaval that will leave nothing unsifted, usher in the Jewish people to repentance and salvation, the church into final glory, and the true ruler of Israel to His throne on earth.

This current regime will be toppled first by Islam (as this is the ancient struggle), then the world system, and finally Jesus Himself as he reigns for all eternity from that holy hill.

I hate to say it, but these are the words of the Lord for this generation, take them or leave them, posted on a forum that can't even seem to find unity in Jesus Christ, the living and true God, let alone a word like this one.

Would that we could all see past flesh and self and bow the knee to the glorified and living God, if we don't do it now, we will all stand before Him and answer for the reason why.

yes but the point I was hoping to hi-light by the statement you responded to was not in reference to Israel directly, but only in contrast to the lack of prayer/concern about the ongoing Arminian genocide, where mostly Christians are being slaughtered, yet no one seemed to care but for Israel (on a map) there is this bluster of fevered activity.
Are we not Christians? Does the word not say that we are to pray for the persecuted Christians as tho we were ourselves suffering?
Then does it say anywhere in the NT, that we are make special place for Israel (on a map) above the concern of our own body ??

Mike did you even know about the Armenian genocide taking place….
now ask yourself why hasn’t that been all over the media 🤔

"Mike did you even know about the Armenian genocide taking place….
now ask yourself why hasn’t that been all over the media 🤔”

Brother, I not even know about it, but I posted on it right here on SermonIndex, but I do agree with you that there is much persecution going on in the world that intercessors need to pray about that we’re not even aware of.

Check out the post on 9/29 (News and Current Events)

One thing that is glaring in this situation, and proves the sentimentality of those who blindly support the Israeli state, is that they are heralding a Palestinian genocide as we speak. Blindly supporting the current fleshly nation of Israel is to support this genocidal tendency of human strength and self sufficiency.

They are God's covenanted people, and will be judged as such, in order to redeem them and bring them to salvation in Jesus. The persecution of the Jew and their slaughter will be self inflicted, and this is the judgment of God. They trust in military strength and the decimation of their enemies, and in that trust are committing war crimes and genocide, and this will be turned on them in judgment.

They are not innocent little Jewish people needing our sentimental praying, they are now war criminals provoking a world system and giving it an open season on them to rid the world of their presence. They need a church that can see past this and be real and authentic, speaking words of life from the life of Christ within, and are willing to stand within the same violent opposition they face and be Christ to them regardless of the outcome. They need true intercessors, not cliches and soulish charismatica.

Please read my previous post, as that is the perspective of God into this situation.

THANK YOU 🙏🏻
Had honestly missed that post -

I think I understand your overall viewpoint ESchaible, but genocide is when you make efforts to eliminate entire populations and people. That is not what Israel is presently doing. They have notified the residents of Gaza over and over that they need to depart because they are not Israel's target. Many times they inform residents where and when strikes will occur. The slaughter of babies and using human shields is what Hamas has done. The war criminals reside in Gaza. They could care less about the citizens of Gaza they tyranically rule over. I acknowledge it is a complicated and very nuanced situation that is intended to strip one of sentimentality and humanistic views of the conflict and Israel's future. I couldn't agree more on this and on the need for true intercessors in tune with the big picture. Yet I remember that God showed me His Father's caring heart for Israel and its people when I was there and it melted me. It changed me immensely. I became less hard and ready to pronounce deserved judgment etc. even though that is central to the issue. Tears and deep times of prayer are needed but you have expressed that. But the war criminals and those dedicated to genocide presently reside in Gaza and Lebanon and Iran.

Bless you.

Docs,

Have you seen the orders of the Israeli defense minister? They are cutting off all supply, electricity, water, and ordering a complete siege of Gaza, which is over 2 million civilians.

But Israel has bombed many civilians, so much so that hospitals and shelters are unable to keep up with Palestinian civilian casualties and injuries. No one is innocent in this conflict.

Curious if this will come to a full fruition or not, but that is war crime and is genocidal in nature.

I do appreciate your words dear brother. Men such as myself always benefit from the reasoned words of men such as yourself, and I thank you for them.

I agree with Docs, this is not about genocide and this is about getting rid of Hamas organization that is a threat to Israel.

I would like to add that Israel is God's people weather they are obedient or not and they are His heart. Eschaible, Who are we to judge them.

I believe God is doing great things in Israel today. After 70 AD, Israel was desolate and recently, God brought them back to the Land which God promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their return to the land was prophesied by the holy prophets and it happened in 1948. Now, we are seeing many Jewish believers of Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah all over Israel and all over the world.
I want to add another thing that the church consists of Jews and the Gentiles. The gospel of Jesus was preached to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles. We the Gentile believers of Jesus are grafted in. 'How much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree.' Romans 11:24
The natural branches are the Jews. It is them that God revealed the Torah and Jesus Christ as well. They were the first believers of Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul was a Jew.
We should be praying that God would reveal to the Jews the good news of Jesus their Messiah through this time so that they would be saved and become grafted in again.

God bless you and Shalom

Yulboum,

To speak matter of factly, to align with the present state of Israel even to the point of condoning the murder of others is exactly the problem. How do you intend to eliminate the issue of Hamas?

This hypocrisy is the reason I said before that the issue of Israel sifts the church.

Of course we hope to see Jewish people come to Jesus in repentance, but to align with the state of Israel to the degree that we condone the murder of anyone, even Hamas, is potently revealing of the present state of yourself, and the church. To lose the teachings of Jesus in the muddy waters of defending a political state and mans borders is to lose everything.

We can love our enemies unless they are Islamic extremists? Love your neighbor, but ask the question, who is our neighbor? Well, again, matter of factly, YOU are the neighbor. To condone the actions of Israel, even to the point of condoning murder and blatant disobedience to the teachings of Jesus is apostasy.

What I have said in previous posts still stands, and so far any effort to say otherwise just reveals the truth of what I am trying to convey, and I believe to be from the Lord Himself.

We are living in tragic times, and even if this conflict doesn't boil over into the time of Jacobs trouble, let us allow it to reveal the state of our own professions, and the state of all that profess faith in Jesus.

Israel makes every effort to protect the lives of innocent people. This is very different from Hamas who brutally kills innocent people and decapitates babies.

Satan has always wanted to destroy the Jewish race, and his tactics have not changed.

God’s judgment on Israel has always been with the intention of bringing repentance and restoration.

God has a covenant with Israel, and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The Spirit of God moved on intercessors all over the world a few months ago to pray and fast for Israel.

Biblical Intercessory Prayers for Israel
From the Life of Moses

Exodus 32:11”“13, 31”“32 ”“ Moses’ cry to the Lord on behalf of the Israelites is based on God’s reputation and covenant, as well as for the sake of His glory.
Deuteronomy 9:18”“19, 25”“29 ”“ Moses’ fasting for forty days, involved intervening for Israel in a time of great crisis.
Deuteronomy 30:1”“10 ”“ This is a proclamation of restoration as taught to the descendants of Israel in the desert.
Numbers 14:13”“19 ”“ This is a plea for God to demonstrate His power, followed by an intense cry for pardon according to God’s great lovingkindness.
From the Life of Nehemiah

Nehemiah 1:4”“11 ”“ This a compassionate plea before God to forgive His people.
From the Life of Solomon

1 Kings 8:46”“53 ”“ This a simple prayer for God to forgive, now and in the future as He has in the past.
From the Lives of Asaph and the Sons of Korah

Psalm 44:26, "Rise up, be our help, and redeem us!”
Psalm 74 ”“ An appeal to God amid the devastation of the land by the enemy.
Psalm 79 ”“ This is a lament over the destruction of Jerusalem and a cry for help.
Psalm 80:2”“3, "Save us!… Restore us!”
Psalm 83 ”“ This is a prayer for the Lord to confound His enemies.
Psalm 85 ”“ This is a powerful prayer for God’s mercy on the nation.
Psalm 123:3, "Be gracious to us, Lord.”
From the Life of Joel

Joel 1:8, 13”“14 ”“ A call for a solemn assembly.
Joel 2:12”“17 ”“ This is an intercessory cry to, "spare Your people, Lord.”
From the Life of Isaiah

Isaiah 58:1, "Cry loudly, do not hold back.”
Isaiah 62:1, 6, "For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not keep quiet… All day and all night [God’s watchmen] will never keep silent.”
Isaiah 63:15”“64:12 ”“ This includes a desperate prayer for mercy and help.
From the Life of Jeremiah

Jeremiah 9:1, "I… weep day and night.”
Jeremiah 14:7”“9, 17”“22 ”“ Verse 7 emphasizes, "Lord, act for the sake of Your name! Our apostasies have indeed been many, we have sinned against You.”
Jeremiah 15:5 is a plea amid judgment.
Lamentations 3:49”“50, "My eyes flow unceasingly, without stopping, until the Lord looks down and sees from heaven.”
Lamentations 5:21, "Restore us to You, Lord, so that we may be restored.”
From the Life of Daniel

Daniel 6:10 ”“ Gives us the example of praying three times each day.
Daniel 9:19, "Lord, hear! Lord, forgive! Lord, listen and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name.” Daniel’s prayer of confession on behalf of his people is our balanced biblical model to follow today.

AbideInHim,

The Jews we seek to be a witness to are simply not Jewish enough. And I notice the one thing missing in your post is the one thing that makes them truly Jewish, Jesus their Messiah.

I am at a loss for words at how quickly everything that is Jesus is so easily thrown to the wolves when Israel is concerned.

See all of my previous posts...

You wrote "I am at a loss for words at how quickly everything that is Jesus is so easily thrown to the wolves when Israel is concerned. "

Yes I’ve observed the same and it’s honestly a lil creepy -

No Christian can rightfully be for terrorism wether by groups or governments, and if this OT eye for an eye business doesn’t get checked soon,… it’s going to spread faster than Covid propaganda.

Once man stands in judgment of an entire people, eradicating them, then that man and those whom support him are taking upon themselves the condemnation of the Lord and will suffer accordingly-

It seems that the stage could possibly be being set for an individual to step onto the world stage and provide remedy, peace….
And we would all recognize who he really was right?

Remember the Antichrist in the Bible is the Jewish messiah who reinstates the sacrifice (abomination to Christ) with the full support and following of Israel 🧐

Fletcher recommended a sermon by Art Katz about why the holocaust happened called The God who Devastates. Highly recommend it as well. Timely.

In the sermon Brother Art references back to the story of Job.
When Job was undone by the acts of Satan with the permission of the Lord, there were some guys who came to comfort Job. They all had some counsel on why God brought this atrocious suffering upon Job. They all were "correct" in their theological statements but were actually very wrong in their evaluations of the situation as to God's thoughts, purposes and wisdom as it pertained to Job and the events. This back and forth about God's heart, purposes and wisdom as to Job severely angered God; so much so that He was ready to curse the speculators unless Job prayed for them.

I'm not saying any here fall into the false speculator place. However, not everyone can be right. I just urge caution when it comes to evaluating what God is doing now in Israel. There is a tendency, whether it is revival or war, to "call it" quickly. The "this is that" or "see, I was right all along" early callers and debate always seem rooted in a sense of personal vindication and/or a comforting perceived confirmation of prophetic ability or calling. I don't say that to malign. I am most likely guilty at some times in my life of the same.

My admonition here is caution and temperance as it isn't just a parlor game or a time to kick theological or eschatological balls around. God is in control of these events. He does have a glorious purpose in them in spite of the horror of the people or events. But speaking for God is a serious, fear filled and trembling moment for a person or at least it should be. The comments thus far are relatively devoid of Scripture and that is most concerning when people are speaking God thoughts or ways. The Katz sermon is worth listening to after the recent events.

That sermon is very good. To add some context however, it's not a sermon with this as it's subject matter, as these things are very clear in scripture and don't require speculation.

The words do still apply however, and thank you for the exhortation. God's personal dealings are definitely not to be trifled with, my life is proof that God, in His infinite wisdom, has much more meaning in every dealing than we can ever know, and often our views of God face a needed overhaul if we take everything as from His hand, no matter what it looks like circumstantially or to our physical senses. I hope to have the faith to see God in all things.

Is the War on Israel the Beginning of the Final War?

Dr. Michael Brown

https://www.youtube.com/live/Xzz_E62iYZg?si=OA_0K90Zu2qjwdsc

Is the War on Israel the Beginning of the Final War?

Dr. Michael Brown

https://www.youtube.com/live/Xzz_E62iYZg?si=OA_0K90Zu2qjwdsc

Michael Brown is saying the same thing that Lance Lambert said in "The Battle Over Israel.”
Satan’s goal is to wipe out the nation of Israel to make the promises of God to Israel and the Church null and void. A simple study of the Word of God concerning the prophetic destiny of the nation of Israel and the Jewish people confirms this.

Here is an interesting discussion what some (edited) Jews think about Israel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUppu2OHVTY

Here is a bit a historical background of Hamas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7grSsuFSS0

Most Christians and Christian leaders are probably not well informed what's going on in the world
Most of all it is now more important then ever to fix our eyes on Jesus and have pure and undivided devotion to Christ. (2 Cor. 11:3 )

What "some" Jews think about Israel might be a better title instead of what "the Jews" think about Israel.

Islam's rapid early spread because of military conquests creating vast historical rivers of blood might be a good subject to discuss.

Just musing.

Hi ESchaible,

Docs,

Have you seen the orders of the Israeli defense minister? They are cutting off all supply, electricity, water, and ordering a complete siege of Gaza, which is over 2 million civilians.

But Israel has bombed many civilians, so much so that hospitals and shelters are unable to keep up with Palestinian civilian casualties and injuries. No one is innocent in this conflict.

Curious if this will come to a full fruition or not, but that is war crime and is genocidal in nature.

Genocide is meant to eliminate a race or ethnic group. A response to terror is not "genocide" or even "genocidal" -- even if it results in civilian deaths that it otherwise tries to avoid. Rather, Hamas has within its charter a truly GENOCIDAL call to eliminate Israel -- to the point that they tie practicing or even ethnic Jews around the world to the secular state of Israel.

Apologists for Palestinians state that the true, underlying issue is in regard to the LAND. Though "Palestine" was never an organized nation, the argument is that this is THEIR land. Yet, from a Biblical perspective, this land was PROMISED to the seed of Abraham and his seed.

As believers, we know that we are that "wild olive branch" that was grafted into the vine.

Romans 11:17-24 says this of the Jews:

.......

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Romans 11:17-24 ESV

.......

So, we are grafted into a vine in which the promise exists. This land is still important. Unless you believe that the Old and New Testament prophecies regarding Jerusalem and the Promised Land is entirely figurative, then it is where the Lord will return to set up His kingdom.

Yulboum,

To speak matter of factly, to align with the present state of Israel even to the point of condoning the murder of others is exactly the problem. How do you intend to eliminate the issue of Hamas?

This hypocrisy is the reason I said before that the issue of Israel sifts the church.

In a way, it is a bit like the Crusades. Secularists will often point to the religious motivations behind the Crusades -- and often point to them as the shining example of "murder" in the name of the Christian (albeit not really Christian but Catholic) religion.

Yet, the Crusades weren't merely a religious response. Rather, they were a secular response to a secular invasion. The "Holy Land" had been under the control of a dominant power since the Diaspora from the Assyrian and, later, Babylonian captivity. The Assyrians gave way to the Babylonians. The Babylonians gave way to the Medes & Persians. The Medes & Persians gave way to the Greeks. The Greeks gave way to the Romans. The Romans gave way to a "Holy Roman" and Byzantine secular/religious rule.

Essentially, the Crusades were a secular response to a secular invasion that was fueled by religious motives. The Muslims conquered the "Holy Land," Egypt, Eurasia, parts of Africa and even parts of Europe (especially Spain, Achaia, Macedonia, etc.). Over the centuries, the battles went back and forth. However, they weren't really a "Christian" attempt to "conquer" anything. They were simply the response of a secular, broken empire (albeit united by its Catholicism) to centuries of militant Islamic conquests.

Israel is a secular nation. Jews still need Christ Jesus in order to be grafted back into a promise that was based upon FAITH. Romans 11 makes this quite clear. That passage isn't "anti-Jewish" but encourages us to pray for Israel (the earthly seed of Abraham) to be re-grafted into this vine of faith. As Paul continues:

.......

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 "and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.

Romans 11:25-31 ESV

.......

That said, I agree that there is wisdom about avoiding "matter of factly" proclamations about such matters in which we might be prone to speaking in generalizations regarding either Christians or Jews -- especially if that generalization is about "condoning murder" or throwing to the "wolves."

AbideInHim,

The Jews we seek to be a witness to are simply not Jewish enough. And I notice the one thing missing in your post is the one thing that makes them truly Jewish, Jesus their Messiah.

I am at a loss for words at how quickly everything that is Jesus is so easily thrown to the wolves when Israel is concerned.

The last time my wife and I went through the Book of Acts, I noticed something interesting. The apostles in Jerusalem were primarily focused on, well, the Jews.

After all, just before Jesus ascended into Heaven, the disciples asked him a question and Jesus gave his response:

.......

6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time RESTORE THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL?”

7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Acts 1:6-8 ESV

.......

They were focused upon a physical kingdom being restored TO Israel (i.e., the Jews). Jesus responded about how it wasn't for them to know the times or seasons that the Father has fixed (i.e., set). So, he redirects them to what it was important to them to know -- namely that they would receive power when the Holy Spirit had come upon them and, then, they would be the Lord's witnesses. Where? "...in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria" (i.e., northern kingdom lands), "and to the end of the earth" (Acts 1:8).

If you read through Acts, Peter didn't have his vision of the sheet from Heaven and his meeting with Cornelius the Centurion until Acts 10-11. This is monumental in the history of the Church -- because Peter and the Jewish believers now realized that God made no distinction (Acts 11:12). After Peter recounted this to the others, they glorified God and said, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life" (Acts 11:18 ESV).

The significance of this is that it took place several YEARS after the death and resurrection of our Lord and the infilling of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. In fact, most Bible scholars date this to roughly up to EIGHT YEARS after the resurrection of Jesus and that Day of Pentecost. It was after the death of James. It was after the stoning of Stephen. It was after the persecution and "scattering" of the Church (Acts 8:1). It was after the conversion of "Saul" and the beginning of "Paul's" ministry. So, for those years, the Church in Jerusalem didn't focus on Gentiles.

So, essentially, the Church started in Jerusalem, Judea and then Samaria before spreading to the Gentiles -- just as Jesus said they would.

Like I said, Jews must still come to Christ. It isn't enough to simply have descended from Abraham. I think that this is part of the point that Paul was making in Romans that is often lost on many believers. Paul was pointing out that Abraham had another "son" as well as other descendants (such as Esau the son of Isaac). However, Esau -- by unbelief -- had sold his birthright. He was not a part of the seed of Abraham by FAITH.

In fact, this is what Hebrews is pointing out too -- that it is impossible to come to God unless it is by faith. It is not enough to simply be a Jew (for many of Israel never made it into the Promised Land after the Exodus from Egypt). It is not enough to have Abraham as a (physical) father because God could raise of descendants of Abraham from a rock. Rather, it takes faith -- the very thing that set Abraham apart as "chosen" and "elect."

This doesn't mean that the gifts and promises of God to physical Israel are moot. Paul makes this very clear in Romans 11:29 ("For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable"). This was a direct reference of physical Israel (Romans 11:28-32).

So, it is my belief that Paul is saying that God's gifts and calling to physical Israel are still valid. This doesn't mean that they have some sort of free ticket to Heaven or that they remain in the "vine." No, they must still come to faith in Christ Jesus (Romans 11:23-24).

In conclusion, our prayer should be for the salvation of the Jews as well as the salvation of others -- including Hamas. However, that, ultimately, is a spiritual matter of eternal consequence. These current troubles in Israel are a secular issue rooted in religious fervor by Hamas and Muslims and a secular response by a secular government of Israel in a nation comprised mostly of physical Israel (i.e., Jews). Our prayer should still be for the peace of Jerusalem -- and Jesus is that only lasting peace.

Hi Chris,

Thank you so much for your post, it is an interesting time we are living in.
And yes must pray for the salvation of the Jews and also of the Gentiles too.

Thank you Chris for sharing the truth.
There is all the difference in the world between the Hamas terrorists and Israel. I appreciate you using all of the scripture references that you did.

Thank you Chris for sharing the truth.
There is all the difference in the world between the Hamas terrorists and Israel. I appreciate you using all of the scripture references that you did.

…and there is a difference between Hamas terrorist 20,000-25,000 and innocent Palestinians 2,000,000 -

It’s important not to conflate Hamas or ISIS with the majority of Arabs who themselves aren’t part of or in support of these groups… again many of whom are our brothers and sisters in Christ ✝️

Israel and its leadership is at a crossroads that will have consequences far beyond its national borders.

Perhaps more important for us, is the 8,000,000+ military aged males who have illegally been implanted in our country awaiting orders to begin their siege-
Prepare accordingly 🙏🏻

Edit to add; And not only here but all across Europe in white countries all of which is being planned and financed by a small ethnic group…

JFW,

You hit the nail squarely on the head. Thank you brother and amen.

The good news:
it is still not too late to seek and maintain "pure and undivided devotion to Christ."

In Christ alone my hope is found

Markus
edit: deleted most of my post

Hi Markus,

When the serpent in the Garden of Eden started to twist the Word of God it had huge consequences for humanity.
The same is true today.
I see so many Scriptures not properly interpreted or twisted, with huge consequences.

"Yet, from a Biblical perspective, this land was PROMISED to the seed of Abraham and his seed"
This is quite accurate, but here is a complete verse:
"And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.(Gal 3:29)
The promise that God made to Abraham belongs to anyone who is in Christ.
Not to Jews or Greeks or Gentiles. Those days are gone by the time we receive the promise.

Since you quoted my comment, I am assuming that this was directed at that comment. To be clear: I wasn't quoting a verse (Galatians 3 or any other verse) when I wrote that. I certainly wasn't "twisting Scripture" either. I simply added a statement there. Moreover, I was speaking about the promised LAND. The passage in Galatians refers to freedom from the LAW. It doesn't refer directly to the Promised LAND. This is (at least in rhetoric) what the current conflict is (supposedly) based upon.

That land holds an exceptionally important part of Biblical prophecy. This specifically includes the people and instance for which Paul said was a "mystery" -- the Israel who will be saved in one day after the "fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (Romans 11:25). While God has "granted repentance that leads to life" to both Gentiles and Jews (Acts 11:18) -- making no distinction between them (as in Acts 11:12), this is not to say that there is no distinction in terms of calling and election or how they pertain to eschatology.

This seems to be much of what Paul refers to in Romans 11:25-32). It may also refer to why Jesus, after he had resurrected and appeared to his disciples for 40 days, told them that they would be his witnesses "in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth" (Acts 1:8). Even here, our Lord made the distinction between Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria and the rest of the world.

The disciples may have taken this as a quite literal command in that they began in Jerusalem and remained there despite many of them being from Galilee. That is why I pointed out that Peter's meeting with Cornelius (after his vision of the sheet from Heaven) didn't happen until around EIGHT YEARS after the Day of Pentecost. In fact, Peter and the others seemed quite surprised that Gentiles were "granted repentance that leads to life" (Acts 11:18).

Most importantly:
Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else? (Rom 8:32)
If we always talk about the land then we have not understood the Gospel properly.What a tragedy.

I think that this is the wrong type of conclusion to make. It's possible to "understand the Gospel properly" while also understanding that the current conflict in Israel is centered on LAND -- and that this land was promised to Abraham's and his descendants (e.g., Genesis 12:7; Exodus 3:8; Exodus 6:8; Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 8:7; Joshua 1:11; Judges 2:1; etc.). Even the commandment to "honor your father and mother" is given the additional admonition "...that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you" (Exodus 20:12).

Obviously (and I stress that this should be OBVIOUS), our focus as believers is not over mere land or real estate. Rather, our promise is in our Lord -- the now-and-future king of that land. It's where the Lord will return. It's where he will rule and reign from. There are many prophecies in the Old Testament about Jerusalem that are yet to be fulfilled and will not be until the Lord returns.

It's where we will also be. And, as part of that "seed" -- and Paul stressed how "singular" that was because it referred to Christ (Galatians 3:15-16). In fact, Peter pointed out that we are not born again of perishable seed (and he was writing to the Jews) but of "imperishable seed" (I Peter 1:21-25). As we are grafted into this vine by faith, we are fellow heirs with Christ of this promise (Romans 8:17).

Hi Chris! I agree with you and with your Biblical perspective concerning Israel.

We need to agree with scripture, not man’s opinions without being scriptural.

Israel At War: Understanding the Bigger Picture:

https://youtu.be/YapOE-6k7j0?si=KcGsi-gcRkZj0d89

Chris,

I don't disagree with much that you said, but since your longer post was directed at me, I will need some time to address it.

I will say that the entire premise is off in that you make a sacred and secular dichotomy. I would like to see a scriptural basis for separating sacred and secular not only in this context, but ever. I am a firm believer that everything is sacred, that all things fall under the jurisdiction of Jesus, and nothing escapes His rule, eyes or judgment.

I think to make that separation in general is grievous error, but especially in this context, it guts the entire prophetic and apostolic nature of the faith.

Could the crux of this entire issue be our views of God Himself, and not interpretation? Like Doc said earlier, just musing.

AbideInHim,
The irony of your appeal to discount mans ideas and than your posting of a YouTube video is not lost on me, well played.

Chris
Thank you for your comments and clarifications.
I still decided to delete most of my last post and leave this thread.
My devotion to Christ is more important at the moment.

Occasionally I pray for some of you

Blessings to all

Markus

I concur with your point of the land being a separate issue from the law,… however have not both been supplanted by Christ Jesus and the Kingdom of God?

Were not those promises of land fulfilled by God, and did not Israel inherit and prosper in the promised land ?
And was it not in this very land that messiah came, was rejected and murdered?

Which begs the question, where in the NT is there a promise to non-believing Jewish peoples to have control over this land ?

What I find the scriptures to plainly state is that this land will be the forever home of the Kingdom of God, where God Himself will be the light therein. Where therein - not a ethnocentric military state 🤷🏽”â™‚️

The fact that Jesus returns physically to this land is in no way predicated on a particular group being in control of it,… it’s not like He needs their permission as Jesus is Lord of all.

What puzzles me is how we (western church) are quick to depart from our NT faith and return to an OT disposition when two of the 3 Abrahamic faiths are fighting for supremacy in the region all while both flatly denying the savior of the very God they claim to serve/worship🧐
To say it another way, why are we surprised when unsaved, unregenerate people act like, wait for t…. Unsaved, unregenerate people… what did we think they would do,… be good Christians ???
Yet it’s as if we all become more likely to identify with Israel than with Jesus !?
This is a grave error that will cost far more than most seem to understand…
Jesus and Paul and Peter and John and Stephen would all be in constant conflict with the very people most Christians clamor to be accepted by ….
make it make sense 🤷🏽”â™‚️

FTR I have several close Jewish Israeli friends in Israel presently and as a Christian I don’t want to see anything bad happen to the people of Israel or Jews in genera, like all Christians, I want them to come to repentance and faith in Jesus of Nazareth, their messiah🙏🏻
Having said this, as a Christian, where can we find a NT biblical standing for murdering innocent life, even (or especially) by the people of Israel ?
Yes there is a NT biblical standing for protecting women and children, even with deadly force from my understanding, but not an emotionally charged blood lust or a wholesale dehumanization of millions of people -

Yes there is a NT biblical standing for protecting women and children, even with deadly force

Where do you see this in the NT, dear brother Fletcher?

Caleb4life,

It's is very interesting how this topic brings so much to light, and how the Lord will use it to reveal so much about our professions of faith. I pray that which is revealed is acted upon in repentance and a new and authentic alignment with Jesus Himself.

Hi Fletcher,

I would like to encourage you to read the OT. The Word of God is flawless and is forever.
HIS word is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
The apostles of Jesus Christ are Jews and they wrote the NT. Also, what the apostles wrote is not really 'new' they wrote the same things that the prophets wrote in the OT. To sum it up, it is all about Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelation.

Hi Eschaible,

I don't condone murder and I forgive you for your accusations.

God bless you and give you peace.

Hi ESchaible,

I will say that the entire premise is off in that you make a sacred and secular dichotomy. I would like to see a scriptural basis for separating sacred and secular not only in this context, but ever. I am a firm believer that everything is sacred, that all things fall under the jurisdiction of Jesus, and nothing escapes His rule, eyes or judgment.

In the sense of "Israel:" It can be both the people and the land. After all, the covenant brought about two things for the "seed" of Abraham -- the number of the descendants AND the land what was given to them.

The current conflict in the Middle East is (supposedly) a fight over the LAND. There is obviously something much deeper there -- especially since we know that we will eventually culminate with what we read about in Old and New Testament prophecies regarding Israel and Jerusalem.

To be clear: The Old Testament makes it quite clear that this land is the land given by promise. The New Testament makes it clear that this promise is contingent upon faith. This is why that commandment about "honor your father and mother" is so interesting -- because there is a contingency about how long God's chosen will dwell in the land of that promise. It's not a promise about enjoying a "long life" but living long in that land that God is GIVING us.

Our Lord will return and reign on this earth from that promised land. Consequently, it's no wonder that the physical "Israel" to whom it was promised would be in conflict with the people and groups who really have no promise whatsoever (either physically or spiritually).

Thanks for encouraging me to read the OT, tho I’m not sure why you would assume that I don’t study it presently or have insufficient knowledge of it to understand the context of the NT…. Perhaps you could be more specific as to what you’d hope I’d find ?

In any case, the fact remains that of the first covenant was without fault there would be no need/space for a new one, likewise we have better promises as the 8th chapter of Hebrews plainly states;

\t
A Better Ministry
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
A New Covenant
(Jer. 31:31-34”Š)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

\t\t
It’s important to note the distinction of the use of the term "house of” and the implications of such.
And even here, after the cross, a distinction is made between the houses of Israel and Judah. This is necessary when writing to Hebrews to bring the whole of the old covenant, with all of its facets, into the new covenant

Yet in Christ there is neither distinction, which is why (for me) the apostles had to be Jewish, for Jesus Himself said "salvation is of the Jews”… that was their promise, that unto to them (Jews) a savior would come. That’s why the he bloodline/genealogy is so important in the scriptures,… Jesus had to be Jewish and that bloodline had to be preserved from the first Adam to the last Adam, else how could it be redeemed?

Hi Fletcher,

I just wanted to say is that OT and NT is the same word of God. I'm glad you read the OT and hope you continue to read both OT and NT

What puzzles me is how we (western church) are quick to depart from our NT faith and return to an OT disposition when two of the 3 Abrahamic faiths are fighting for supremacy in the region all while both flatly denying the savior of the very God they claim to serve/worship🧐

Sorry if I offended you

God bless you

Good question 🙏🏻

Because it was a preexisting condition of the OT that didn’t get changed by Jesus. What Jesus changed was loving our enemies not hating them, tho that (for me) in no way touches someone breaking into my home and raping my wife and children before killing them, as we just saw in Israel. If I were to arrive upon this situation, I would, without mercy, stop them and if the only way was to take their life then I would… unless the Holy Spirit Himself stopped me.

For me, and I’m only speaking for me, I believe the charter of being the priest of my home includes protecting them just as a shepherd protects the flock from wolves.
Having said this, if I were to be in the context of preaching the gospel at a church , in the street, or on the mission field and I was attacked, I would not use deadly force even if my life depended upon it, unless otherwise directed by the Holy Spirit Himself.

So for me, Israel not only has a right but an expectation to defend itself and especially it’s women and children, even with deadly force, but this has to be done in a way that demonstrates clear concern for innocent women and children on the other side of the fence. If this happens and Hamas terrorist are stamped out, we will rejoice with Israel however if they show little regard for the innocent women and children on the other side of the fence then they will lose any moral high ground they might’ve had and they will heap condemnation upon themselves .

Hi Fletcher,

Which begs the question, where in the NT is there a promise to non-believing Jewish peoples to have control over this land ?

My first response is to point out from New Testament scripture that God has not stopped dealing with the Jews (physical Israel). This is a truly underlying theme found throughout the epistle of Romans (and is so very clear when a person reads it in one sitting from Romans 1 through 16). It's also clear in last-days prophecy that God is dealing with tribal Israel.

When our Lord came and walked upon the earthen sod of Israel, he referred to those places as "Jerusalem," "Judea," "Samaria" and "Israel." This was long after the captivity and the return under Ezra and Nehemiah. In fact, while the people were not in captivity abroad, the people and the land were. Even after returning from Babylon and elsewhere, the people were still subject to secular rule from various empires (e.g., Medes-Persian, Greek, Roman).

In fact, Peter's epistle is written to the "elect exiles of the Dispersion." This seems fairly clear that Peter, as an apostle to the Jews, was written to believers among physical Israel. This is clear in I Peter 2:11-12 ("Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul. Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation"). Yet, at the beginning of his epistle, Peter refers to them as elect EXILES. From whence were they "exiled?" It was the LAND of Israel.

Now, we can point out that the recipients of that epistle were believers. However, the promise of the physical land was made to a physical people -- many of which never entered because of unbelief. Yet, the promise remained -- and remains. God said that it would last "forever" (Genesis 13:15). Paul referred to this throughout Romans. For instance, he wrote:

.......

1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.

3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,

"That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged.”

Romans 3:1-4 (ESV)

.......

And, later, Paul referred to the state of God's promises to (physical) Israel:

.......

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 "and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.

Romans 11:25-29 (ESV)

.......

Here, Paul is clearly referring to PHYSICAL Israel -- those who are not believers. These are the branches that fell from the vine and not those who have already been grafted back into the vine. Yet, to those, Paul says that (as regards election), they are "beloved for the sake of their forefathers" (to whom the promises were made) and that "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

So, the question would be valid: Was the "land of promise" gifted to physical Israel? I would conclude that it was. If this is true, then that gift is irrevocable.

No offense was taken at all, I was just unclear as to why you would write such a thing the way you wrote it… I was simply giving you an opportunity to clarify your point as I didn’t understand it -

Thank you for responding :)

Ok so I have a few questions, and your writings seem to suggest a belief but am not clear on.

When in Romans 11 Paul wires that "all Israel will be saved”… are you saying that you believe that everyone who was born a Jew or in Israel will come to saving faith in Christ ?
If not how do they get saved?
What about the millions of Jews and Israelis that have died in their sins,… do they somehow get included in your view?

If none of these help you to further provide understanding then perhaps simply answering what you believe "Israel” to be in its totality regarding Romans 11 ?

Thank you 🙏🏻

Hi Fletcher,

I think Chris mentioned that the Jews will be saved by faith and not because they were born a Jew in a previous post.
Cheers,

_____________________________________
Hi everyone,

I believe as well that God Almighty promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the Land and God is not slow in keeping His promise.
At the moment I hear good news how the Jews are believing in Yeshua as their Messiah.
The gospel is spreading rapidly in the Land.
Ezekiel 37
God brought back the Jews to the Land in 1948 and Israel was reborn. Also, it is amazing how their language Hebrew was once dead is now alive. This fact increases my faith in Jesus.

There is a dark force that wants to stop the plan of God and does whatever it takes to destroy.
Anyway, we must pray for peace in Jerusalem and the rest of the world as well. Pray for the rulers that they will govern with integrity and justice.
I don't condone killing or wish harm upon others. It is God that avenges and judges. All I need to do is be still and know God.

Shalom,

Thank you for responding :)

Could you be more specific because I’m still not understanding, forgive me for being slow if that is the case, when you post, "the Jews will be saved by faith and not because they were born a Jew” quoting Chris’ earlier comment,… which Jews ? All of them ? A portion of them?
I’m sincerely hoping to understand what you two are saying, if in fact there is an agreement amongst you as to "who” is or makes up the "all Israel will be saved” in your understanding?

Thank you for your patience 🙏🏻

In Christ alone my hope is found

Amen, Markus.

Surely other foundations are being laid here when CHRIST HIMSELF is the only foundation which is laid (1 Cor. 3:11).

Hi Fletcher,

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob. And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
Romans 11:25”­-”¬27 BSB

Is it this verse you are referring to?

This is a hard one to understand for me too. But I'm sure God will reveal to us.

I believe the apostle Paul is talking about how all the tribes of Israel will be saved.

In the book of Revelation, God shows us how there will be 144,000 that are sealed. 12,000 from each tribes.
So all Israel will be saved.

This might help?
Peace

Hi Fletcher,

Ok so I have a few questions, and your writings seem to suggest a belief but am not clear on.

When in Romans 11 Paul wires that "all Israel will be saved”… are you saying that you believe that everyone who was born a Jew or in Israel will come to saving faith in Christ ?
If not how do they get saved?

What about the millions of Jews and Israelis that have died in their sins,… do they somehow get included in your view?

As Robert (yulboum) pointed out, I think that I made it clear that Jews must believe in Jesus to be saved. All of the messages preached by Jesus and the Apostles about salvation (up until Peter's vision of the sheet and meeting with the Roman centurion, Cornelius) were preached to the Jews -- the physical children of Israel. This includes the message of Acts 2.

.......

38 Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.

Acts 2:38-39 (ESV)

.......

This message was preached to the JEWS in JERUSALEM during the FEAST OF WEEKS (i.e., the DAY OF PENTECOST). It's clear in Scripture that Jews need Jesus -- and that God makes no distinction between Jews and Gentiles when it comes to salvation. When those of Israel believe in Christ Jesus, they are the "natural branches" that were broken off but are now grafted back into the vine (Romans 11:17-24).

.......

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare THE NATURAL BRANCHES, neither will he spare you.

22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Romans 11:17-24 (ESV)

.......

Now, as for the other question about what Paul means that "all Israel will be saved," I must again point that this is a different matter that is certainly linked with our discussion about the land.

The most plain and accurate answer that I can give is "I don't clearly know." This is because this is a topic that is much-debated. It often has certain eschatological and theological influences within the conclusions of people who discuss it too.

So, for me, I just haven't arrived to a clear conclusion that I can declare with absolutely certainty. This is the case even if I do have some ideas tied to Biblical prophecy. I don't want to be guilty of proclaiming something that is not entirely clear in Scripture. This is what many Bible teachers do in haste or zeal -- and I don't want to be counted among them. After all, this is a "mystery" (Romans 11:25).

I'm certainly aware of this mystery; and, it's not to say that I don't have opinions and views about how this might (potentially) come about. It does seem quite clear to me that this passage in Romans 11:26 (about all Israel being saved) is predicated upon Romans 11:25 -- a physical Israel that has a partial hardening "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

In the context of Romans 11:25-27, Paul subsequently quotes several passages from the Old Testament -- Isaiah 59:20-21; Isaiah 27:9 and Jeremiah 31:33-34. It seems that the passage of Jeremiah is the one that continues to offer some additional context for when this will come about. Verses 31-32 of the chapter also mention this "new covenant." But, the passage continues:

.......

33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel AFTER THOSE DAYS, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Jeremiah 31:33-34 (ESV)

.......

Verse 33 mentions a time -- "after those days" (meaning "after" God has made the new covenant). This is put into context by verse 34 when it mentions that no one will teach his neighbor and his brother saying "know the LORD." This is because "they shall all know me -- from the least of them to the greatest" (verse 34).

This "least of them to the greatest" obviously draws some similarity to how the disciples argued who would (future tense) be the greatest in the Kingdom (e.g., Matthew 18:1-4; Luke 9:46-48; etc.). So, this seems to refer to a point in the "kingdom of God" AFTER the New Covenant that points to a time in which everyone will know the LORD.

If this was merely salvation and referring to the "Israel of God" based solely upon faith -- including both Jews and Gentiles -- then it would be a redundant statement. Why? Because faith is predicated upon "earnestly seeking" the Lord (Hebrews 11:6). So, believers know the Lord.

It seems to me like that passage from Jeremiah 31 that is quoted by Paul in Romans 11 in the context of all Israel being saved is referring to, well, physical Israel in the time when Christ returns and reigns. In fact, Jeremiah 31 continues to mention the context of a time when the unholy places where carcasses are thrown in the Kidron Valley (outside the gates of Jerusalem during the time of Jeremiah) will be "sacred to the LORD" and the city "shall not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever" (Jeremiah 31:40 ESV).

So, the time in which all of Israel will be saved might actually be when all of Israel is saved by the Lord's return. In fact, Deuteronomy 30:1-5 does seem to offer something akin to this -- a future return of those scattered back into this land of promise.

Still, this part is all pondering. I don't know the timetable. In fact, I think that this is what Jesus said to the disciples who asked him about that timetable:

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6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them, "IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW THE TIMES OR SEASONS that the Father HAS FIXED by his own authority.

Acts 1:6-7 (ESV)

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The Father has fixed the times and seasons for when he will "restore the kingdom TO ISRAEL." It's just wasn't for them to know either the "times" or the "seasons" that the Father has set.

As for those Jews who died in their sins: Like I said, all must repent and believe in Jesus to saved. Peter said this on the Day of Pentecost to the Jews.

How, then, did the godly children of Israel get saved? When, where and how? Jesus spoke a parable about Abraham and Lazarus in his bosom (Luke 16:19-31). How did he get there? That's a good question! Hebrews 11 offers some input about this -- and it came down to FAITH. It's how the covenant with Abraham began in the first place. Paul, James and the writer of Hebrews mention that "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness" (Genesis 15:6; Galatians 3:6; Romans 4:1-3; James 2:23; Hebrews 6; etc.).

Of course, I don't know when, where or how. I do know that faith was the key -- and that there were children of Israel who did not enter the "promised land" because of unbelief. Hebrews 11 is filled with examples of faith in God in the Old Covenant.

I'm not sure if this answers your first question (because I don't have a definitive answer). I just have thoughts on that because of both Old and New Testament passages. Even under the Old Covenant, for any of "Israel" to be saved, they must have faith. Under this New Covenant, that faith is predicated upon believing in Christ Jesus.

I think the bottom line that is so often lost when this topic is discussed is simply this:

The Jewish people are to whom belong the covenant that was extended to the gentiles when the Jews rejected their Messiah. This extension of the covenant to the gentile was for the sole purpose of provoking Jews to jealousy and ultimately save the people of Israel. This is the wisdom of God, that all things exist for Jesus, the Jewish Messiah.

The land will be restored by God Himself when Israel turns to Jesus in repentance and faith.

Judgment will fall again on Israel due to their rejection of the covenant, and the church is the avenue through which God will demonstrate His salvific power. The church is called to be "Christ in you", or incarnation as it were, to the Jew as they flee persecution and death during the time of Jacobs trouble, the time of great tribulation, hence the necessity of the Churches presence through that time.

When the time is fulfilled all remaining Jews will be saved and the land restored to them by God Himself, not military power of human self reliance and sufficiency.

All things point toward Jesus and His glory, and until the nation of Israel is humbled and calls out for mercy from Jesus in repentance and faith, the land will not be restored.

We must brace ourselves for the time where we, as the church, must demonstrate to the world system of principalities and powers that we are living in the kingdom of God now, presently, and this wisdom of Christ in us will provoke the Jew to jealousy and ultimately usher in the salvation of every living Jew as they cry out to Jesus in repentant faith and are saved.

The church, or better said, the community of believers in the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ, must be living in resurrection power that only comes through utter death to self, a lifestyle of bearing the cross with Jesus, in order to have a quality and authenticity of life that will provoke the Jew to jealousy.

A time is coming that will make the Holocaust look like a mere blip on the radar of history, and the church must be the authentic and resurrected beacon of light and hope for the fleeing Jew, who is supposed to be a beacon of hope and the light to a darkened world. In this way the Jew will become what he was chosen to be, a believer in Jesus and thereby the light of the world.

This is the brass tacks of the entire issue.

Quibbles over interpretation and definition is just another distraction from the actual issues, the issues of covenant and promise, the issues of Jesus Christ.

And with that said, I will bow out of this discussion as the Holy Spirit will make plain everything in due time to those that seek Him. May the Father receive glory through Jesus the Son, by the Holy Spirit - and may this triunity be manifest in the church for the glory of God to the provocation of Israel that they may be saved.

God help us if we fail here.

The honesty and humility in the responses is refreshing and encouraging 🙏🏻

May we all walk worthy of the gospel by which we were called ✝️

The honesty and humility in the responses is refreshing and encouraging

I agree with brother Fletcher. Also a sobering exhortation from brother eschaible that really gets to the heart of the matter as well and resonated with me at a deep level.

Fletcher, I’m still pondering your response to my inquiry about the use of deadly force in the NT, and appreciate your reply and thoughts on the matter. I may have further questions, but would likely open a new thread, if I’m at peace to do so.

Love all of you saints dearly! ❤️

Tho the words would naturally be different, I tend to share a similar perspective in that this is a critical time for the body of Christ with many pitfalls, indeed the way is narrow and the gate straight. We’ve been preoccupied and distracted for far too long and in many ways are off pace and out of position, not clinging to the head which is Christ.

I do honestly believe that Israel is being set up as it were, wether from within or from without and that will be revealed in its time, tho in either case we are to boldly share the gospel of Jesus Christ,… Christ and Him crucified is Gods answer to all of this ✝️

Ha! I thought you might ;)

I’ll be as forthcoming as I am able 🙏🏻

Hey Chris,

(apologies for skimping on the spelling)

I liked your emphasis on the distinction between "spiritual Israel (Gal 6:16) and "physical Israel" (1 Cor 10:18), while at the same time wrestling with their respective roles in end times prophecy.

I'm interested in further discussing your views, but this thread has been progressing too fast for me to keep up.

I think it'd be cool if we could discuss this over e-mail - you good with that? Do you still go by your old Yahoo! e-mail address?

John

Thank you ESchaible.

/When the time is fulfilled all remaining Jews will be saved and the land restored to them by God Himself, not military power of human self reliance and sufficiency.

All things point toward Jesus and His glory, and until the nation of Israel is humbled and calls out for mercy from Jesus in repentance and faith, the land will not be restored./

Yes. No one with our view is saying otherwise even though many think, even though the evidence is there we are not, we are trying to present the present secular state as something approaching the final fulfillment or that simply because Israel has reappeared it is presently a manifestation of the kingdom of God. The church has a witnessing and assisting role to play as it stands with Israel and the Jewish people in their coming time of trouble. This latter-day "controversy of Zion" is not going away and will grow in scope and intensity even beyond its present intensity. Jerusalem and who is its rightful owner and the land will be the epicenter of the storm as it eventually will threaten world peace. Issues of the faith once winked at or lightly considered will be purposefully put on the front burner again by the Lord. Decisions will be required over proper interpretation of prophecy and how one is to treat the Jewish people even in their backslidden state. Many theologies teach God is through with Israel, but I don't believe this is so in regard to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I pray the watchmen on the wall will not cease crying out.

Hi John,

I think it'd be cool if we could discuss this over e-mail - you good with that? Do you still go by your old Yahoo! e-mail address?

Ok, many clever posts. Let's pray.