Audio Message: Restoring The First Love For Jesus

Amen timely message , thanks Greg !!

Michael K. credits the turnaround in His personal walk with Jesus to the book titled My All For Him by Basilea Schlink. It changed his ministry and life completely according to his testimony before the Sisters of Mary of Bethany. The book is about love for Jesus, especially the notion and quality of Bridal love for the Groom. A Bridal love that is for all believers. I think Brother Greg has the first 5 chapters on the site.

Thank you Greg!

Excellent message!

It’s all about Jesus!

"The Christian life is a life of death, burial and resurrection."

"It's just about Jesus. It is just about Jesus. It is about Jesus."

"Thats all you need is just one touch from the Lord."

O yes, let us renew our first love for Jesus. Take time for Him. While we can't see him with our physical eyes or touch Him with our hands, He is here nevertheless and waits for us to give Him our attention and devotion.

Thank you for mentioning 'My All for Him'. Basilea perhaps captures the bridal spirit better than anyone I've come across. I would like to share one paragraph from that book here:

Jesus is a Bridegroom in the truest sense of the word. He waits for His bride, because the kind of love He seeks cannot be forced. He knocks gently on the door, waiting to see whether the door will open and His bride will let Him in. He is grieved when His bride is overabsorbed in her work and earthly matters. In her daily tasks she may be quick, active, full of initiative, but Jesus' eyes follow her sadly if she is always rushing about doing things while becoming estranged from Him.

END OF QUOTATION.

I like to say quick 'breath prayers' to Christ throughout the day such as:

"I believe in you Lord"

"You are here with me Lord"

"It's not too bad Lord"

"You will make a way Lord"

The Lord delights in our connecting with Him at all times and not only when we have scheduled times of prayer. The very heart of the Christian life is RELATIONSHIP with Christ and the foundation is LOVE. And we build upon that foundation not out of obligation or duty but because of that LOVE that transcends reason.

"The Lord delights in our connecting with Him at all times and not only when we have scheduled times of prayer. The very heart of the Christian life is RELATIONSHIP with Christ and the foundation is LOVE. And we build upon that foundation not out of obligation or duty but because of that LOVE that transcends reason.”

Amen Brother!

TRANSCRIPT OF THE MESSAGE:

I was on a friend's podcast the other day, and he asked me, what is the Lord speaking to the church and to the world? The Lord is saying the same thing to the church and to the world. He's saying Jesus. That's all he's ever spoken. Thank you. I've got one guy with me, thank you, Jesus. Tonight I felt like the Lord wanted to remind us of our personal beginnings, not just our corporate beginning, which is obviously special to us as a church family, how we started in that little Presbyterian church, just singing until He came, with no pressure, no clock. Aren't you glad the clock did not die on the cross? I'll never forget Heidi saying, oil takes time, sweetie, and so does wine. That's just the truth. But I want to talk about just our personal beginnings and how it all started for you, for me, where it started, how it started.

Andrew Murray said, if you're looking for your end, you'll find it in your beginning. I've never really been into open and closed doors. I believe in them, but I used to hear people say, He opens and closes doors, but it's hell in the hallway. And I thought, well, why does that have to be hell in the hallway if I'm walking with Jesus? It could be heaven in the hallway. It was actually Jay Vallotton who asked me that question last week, what is the Lord saying? And he's saying Jesus. The Lord, hear me, He is specifying and sharpening the message of the church. He is specifying and sharpening the message of the church.

I found it to be interesting that Lauren Cunningham goes to glory, who was a dear friend and the father of something that the world has never really seen. And then the next day, what happens in Israel takes place. God doesn't take his generals home by happenstance. And then Israel is this time clock, this time piece for the whole world. And Jesse actually said last night, as we talked about it, should we have vision Sunday tomorrow with what's going on in Israel? Would that sound numb or deaf or tone deaf? I said, absolutely we should. More than ever, Jesus needs to be preached all over the world. And this is proof of it.

The only one who will solve what's going on over there is King Jesus. Every generation, another five-year-old sees something bombed that is ingrained in his soul. And that doesn't just go away. You understand that doesn't just leave you, regardless of what side you may be born into, you are marked. And this stuff goes on for generations. And as hard as we try, we need to realize this thing will continue generation after generation after generation until a greater King than David, who is the son of David comes on the scene.

There is no replacing the gospel. And the gospel is quite simply Jesus himself preached by the power of the Holy Spirit, period. As much as I believe in signs and wonders, and we've seen them here by the thousands, there's stuff that's happened here that I didn't even agree with. And then it happened and I agreed with it. It's amazing how that works. It's heretical until it happens to you. Then you got to figure it out. I remember some people would pray and their hands would shake and they used to bother me so bad.

And then I went to a meeting in Orlando where Bill and Randy were speaking and Randy took a step toward me and my hands started shaking. So I tried to hide them in my pocket, really. And I didn't know Bill at the time very well. We met twice. He was sitting next to me and my hands were doing this and I thought, this is worse. I might as well just let him out. And he just kind of looked over and, you know, I'm in, I have seen stuff that I never thought I'd see. Stuff that stretches you. Stuff that offends your balanced thinking, which is really oftentimes dead thinking. Where many people are more comfortable with a savior who didn't come out of the grave.

Because they can control that version of him. So I'm in. I've seen tumors fly out of people's mouths on the floor in front of me. I've felt dozens disappear under my hand. I'm in. I believe. But I want to say something. In some supernatural environments, we have forgotten Jesus. And that is not a small issue. The thousands who came to the pastor's conference, there was no secret sauce. The secret sauce was him. So this is not a small issue to lose our vision of Jesus. There is no faith, called the Christian faith, without Jesus.

And so when Jay asked me that question, the answer was quite simple. The Father is speaking Jesus. It's all he's ever spoken. It's all he's ever spoken prior to the incarnation. Your Bible is about Jesus. Because Jesus said that. The scriptures testify of me, he said. They speak of me, but you won't come to me. And that's why I tell our students, don't just come to your Bible. Come to Jesus through your Bible. At the same time, don't create a Jesus that isn't in the Bible. Prayer, friends, is about Jesus. In fact, you're not really praying until you forget you are. Until you forget about it all. Until the light that shines from his face dissolves every other thought. If you've ever been in the glory of Jesus, you know what I'm talking about. It cancels every other awareness.

One of the things I'm concerned about, but I'm hopeful, is that a generation of young people is coming up in the church who's never been in the glory. And once you are, there's no way home from there. There's no way home. Worship is about Jesus. Are you listening tonight? Worship is about Jesus. Worship is not about music, though he likes it. Aren't you grateful? I don't know why the Lord enjoys a change of key, or a certain melody, or why he has chosen to live in praise that is united. There's something about the sound of the saints that will, listen church, listen to me, that will forever carry us further and deeper for longer than the voice of somebody. I could go down that road.

I am jealous over our worship environment. And I don't apologize for it. Because worship is about him. It's about him. And we don't know we're really worshiping until we, I should say we're not really worshiping until we forget we are. There's this loss of self. This loss of thought that is us centered. We get lost in his presence and finally we're worshiping. Prayer, as I said earlier, is simply about the Lord. It's all about Jesus. Church should be about Jesus. Is anyone listening? Church should be about Jesus Christ. Here's a newsflash. It's his house. He said, no, it's mine. No, you're adopted. And you got invited in. It's his house. His name is on the title deed. And he didn't buy it with a mortgage. He bought it with his blood. That's what Peter wrote, that we've been purchased by the blood of the Son of God. So hold on, Michael, you're saying everything is his, yes. That's what I'm saying. So the message to the world is this, Jesus.

The message to the church is this, Jesus. The message to the believer is Jesus. The message to the unbeliever is Jesus. The message to the backslider is Jesus. The message to the person who's lacking power is Jesus. The message to the person who is lonely is Jesus. There is no other remedy than Jesus himself. That is all God has to offer. And friends, when you realize who Jesus is, you will realize that he has offered everything in his Son. There's nothing left over. Not that you want, at least. But the specificity, I just want to get to here. In fact, I talked about it today, I hope. Smith was running a camera on me, I had to do all these videos after service. I had to talk about, or I think I was asked to send a video to some friends who have a ministry school, and their third year's wanted a video.

And they asked me to talk about the servant king. I want you to hear these words, listen to this from Zechariah. You don't need to turn there. Your king cometh unto you lowly. Your king cometh unto you lowly, riding on a donkey. So if you want to know how the Lord comes, he comes lowly. Even if he comes with might and power, which he does, he does not forfeit his lowliness. Jesus is the perfect definition of the Father. The perfect one. So the Lord Jesus comes to tell us who God is.

He is fully God. So here's the question. How does he arrive? Lowly. Lowly. There's a big difference, listen, between a cross that kills you and a ladder you climb. I have seen so many people become offended in the church because somebody else did not give them what they felt like they deserved. And the Bible says that promotion cometh from above, and that man cannot receive anything that heaven doesn't give. Oh friends, listen, I'm begging you guys, our media team, our worship team, songwriters, House of Bethany group, our musicians, the directors, all of it, listen to me, if you've got to climb a ladder to get it, you have to fight to stay on that ladder, and it will contaminate the soul. It's not worth it, it's not worth it, it's not worth it. The king comes lowly.

Now friends, this has defined greatness. And this is why Israel missed Jesus, because he was not their version of greatness. They wanted a warrior who in the flesh would set them free. But Jesus redefined greatness. It's Calvary, according to the Lord. Is this making sense? That's why there's a lamb on the throne. So Jesus comes this way, not merely to do something, but to reveal who he really is. The humility of Christ Jesus is greatness. And so that's what I sent the third years, actually to BSSM, I had to record it today. That's what I sent them. Tell me about the servant king. This isn't just something the Lord accomplished, but this is who he is. He also redefined kingdom. Kingdom is not about volume. In fact, he didn't even quench a smoking flax or bruise a wreath.

A humble heart will take us further than the loudest voice. I want my eyes to fill with tears like they used to when I first started. I want to weep the same way I used to weep. I don't want to not be triggered like I used to. Anyone remember listening to the same worship song over and over and over and over and over and over again? Anybody remember weeping over their Bible? Has anyone ever been on their face in their prayer closet or in a room and your actual flesh begins to cry out for the living God? So much so that you don't have any words. That's what Madam Guillaume said. We are quiet for two reasons in God's presence. One, we have too little to say. Or two, because we have too much to say. Have you ever been in the Lord's presence to such a degree that your being is crying out his holy name? So Jesus has defined what success looks like. If we're going to make it until the end, church, if we're going to make it as a church family, we've got to know what the win is.

And for those of you who came in from out of town, you need to know. That's why the Lord sent you here tonight. Yes to be in his presence and worship. Yes to get touched. Yes to get healed unapologetically. Yes to give your life to Jesus. And you must leave tonight knowing that God sent you here to hear his holy word. The father is showing us who his son is. And before he is a water walker, listen to me, he is the lamb who comes to die. If we lose that, if we lose the tree, then water walking becomes about us. Does this making any sense? If you lose Calvary, you'll start hosting events on how to walk on water. And that's what we do. That's our default. We do this. I don't know why we do it. But Jesus multiplies bread and fish.

Imagine if his disciples said, Lord, we should host a conference on food multiplication. Pack that thing out. But we've done that. There's power. There's power in the tree. And I've told you this many times. The cross is not a mere accomplishment. It is the greatest definition of who our God is. We serve a God who comes to die for his harlot bride. This is who he is. This is what keeps the soul. This will keep you to the end. And I want to see all of you at the throne. Well, maybe not all of you. No, I'm joking. I was like, oh, fear the Lord. It's been a wonderful journey, but in the age to come, maybe put it on. I don't know.

No, I'm joking. I hope you're not near my mansion, Carla. You'll be sending spreadsheets. Carla will give us a to-do list in glory. Tomo Peter's lawn. She sent her husband to the grocery store with a spreadsheet. Poor guy. Color coded, too. So when I say the Lord is speaking Jesus, I want to be very clear about the Jesus that he's speaking. Because there's only one. I've read this to you so many times, but I just don't see it as a waste. First Corinthians 2 verse 1, and I brethren, when I came to you did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom, declaring to you the testimony of God.

How free can I be tonight? All right. It is live, though. Once it gets out there, it's out there. All right. Help me say it, Lord. In a way that's sneaky. And I'm not saying if you have it, it's wrong, but Paul's like, you know what, I threw it all away. And Paul had excellent speech. He memorized Torah. He's trained by Gamaliel. He's a philosopher. He spoke multiple languages. We're not talking about an idiot. We're talking about a very smart guy who said, I didn't show up that way. He didn't show up that way because he was addicted. Because he saw the God of the Torah who redeemed him when he was out murdering this God's bride.

And so Paul throws all of that away. All right. I'm just going to say it, and I'm saying it in love. We are hosting events teaching people how to, not we, but events are held teaching preachers how to communicate. Right? From the worship perspective, we teach, we can teach, we shouldn't, but we can and often do. Teach people who aren't in love how to write. Too much tonight? This is my home church, so I got to do it somewhere. If you write and you're not in love, and you're an employee, and you just write a song that you didn't get from glory, not realizing the only songs that work here are the ones they're singing up there. That's why they work here. You know they are worshiping up there. That's why we worship here.

There aren't two services going on when you're in the spirit. You just join the one that's going on around the throne. And as I've said before, the book of Revelation says they were singing the song of the lamb, listen, and Moses' song. That's when you know you've written something good. Why were they singing it? It was from heaven. That's why we wait and worship the way we wait, because we're not moving on until we're aware of him. If we are not, we have missed the only biblical proof that he liked it. Biblically, the only way we know the Lord liked the worship is if he came. Biblically, that'd be refreshing, let's just be biblical. The only way they knew that the Lord liked it was with fire and a cloud. That was it. You say we're in the New Testament.

Well, look at the day of Pentecost. They were anointed by the Spirit in the same room that they celebrated the Last Supper. That's why we sing of the blood, because blood always comes before fire. Blood always comes before oil. You forget Calvary. I'm telling you, you will forfeit the presence of God. Calvary is not, once again, something he did. Calvary is a revelation of who he is. We need people in love who are writing music. We need people who are in love preaching the gospel. Why would I teach someone to communicate who doesn't communicate Christ? Once you're in love, I'll help you out. I've never preached a three-point sermon in my life. I don't even know how to do it. I guess they're all right. I don't see that in the text. I don't see that in Jesus.

So Paul says here, I'm determined to know nothing. In other words, I am trying, listen to the words of Paul, I am doing my best to forget everything I ever knew. That's not natural from a human perspective. What's natural from a human perspective is to try your best to know a bunch more. But Paul is saying, I've discovered something about this God who has manifested himself through death, burial, and resurrection. He is not adding to me. He's reducing from me. That's what God is in the business of. That's what the cross, the beauty of Christ crucified does is he whittles you away so that you can have what? Him. And then you get everything. This makes sense. So much of us, we want more, Lord, more, more.

I know, I get it. We'll do it tonight. I get it. But Paul is saying here, I have tried my best to forget everything I ever knew. So I literally showed up to you, listen, empty. Or like Ms. Kuhlman used to say, I died a thousand deaths before every service. And then she'd take the platform and talk about her dad and how she was too skinny and didn't think she was pretty and that she had long, skinny fingers and used to eat biscuits and butter and sleep in a barn when she first, and I would watch that and go, what is she talking about? Now I get it. She's emptying herself out. She's getting Catherine out of the way. That's the work of the cross. Some of you feel like, man, I've been hidden. Nobody sees me. I'm in the shadows. It's a wonderful place to be.

It's where the trusted, loving, glorious scalpel of the Holy Spirit begins to whittle you away. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. Don't press into leadership. Press into Jesus. You know, I, I'm telling you, if we, I can just tell you this, the songs that came to this house that are the least watched have the most glory. I'm telling you, there's one where God literally stormed the room and I've never heard worship and praise like that in my life. And it's nowhere near some of the videos with millions and millions of views. It just shows us the church needs a tastebud adjustment. It's got to move beyond videography, a great mix on broadcast, a great mix in the house. It's got to move beyond that. That's all very valuable. There is an anointing for all that. And I'm grateful for every, every one of you, every tech, every technician, everyone who's mixing. Zach, I love you. You know, it's not even about you. Okay. I, I get that, but it's got to go beyond that. And you know, the moments I'm talking about.

What's that one called? The king is, welcome the king, a glorious moment. Listen, people's eyeballs are not the barometer. His coming is. His response is. The moment we become addicted to him and his response, we let him have his work in us. We need to die to all that. If God raises us up as leaders, great, it's wonderful. But I can tell you this, it'll be one of the hardest things you've ever had to do. There's a death to die and multiple every day. It's a privilege, but don't think for a moment that it's easy. Oftentimes we press into something not knowing what it costs. And the work of the spirit is what prepares us. Just settle in. Make his presence your ministry. Is this tracking tonight? I'll never forget Jesse's, Jesse's dad.

He said he had me at one of the events in Orlando in 2009 and Jesus image was just a dream in my heart. I don't even think we owned a laptop. And he announces to a crusade here in the city with 18,000 people there I think, Mikey, come up here and tell the people about your new ministry. I was like, I don't, I don't have an office. And he goes, well, tell them about your ministry. And I'll never forget what jumped out of my mouth. My ministry is him. And then someone said, tell them more. I said, no, that's all I've got. Him, him, him. I used to have a lot more. I used to have a lot to say. I used to have topics coming out of my ears because I was filled with myself.

And then he takes you off the backside of some desert called I-4. Takes you to Sheol, the pit called Orlando traffic. I never wanted to live here. Gosh, this is really a risky sermon. I never did. I never did. I loved the water. I grew up fishing. I don't love the summers. I hate traffic. I am not a city boy. And I went all over Florida. I am a Florida boy. And I went all over Florida. I tried Sarasota, West Palm, Tampa Bay. You name it. Went out to the country. We didn't lie. Everywhere. And then finally, we stayed here. And to my shock and torture, I felt the peace of God. I'm not joking. This is not... I would rather mow your lawn than go to Disney. That's just me.

I'm not saying like... And this isn't like a political thing. It's just the lines, the heat, the no deodorant. All of it. I'm like, oh, what am I doing? And now, why are we doing this again? One time, my daughter, she loves it there. So, of course, if she asks for it, we do it. And it was her birthday. And it was torture. Like an hour in, I'm like, I'm not going to survive it. I've been to Sudan. I've been all over the Middle East. This is worse, Lord. They can put me in an area where there are militants.

But this is something else. And I actually said to the Lord, is Sophia here tonight? Okay. I said, Lord, send the rain. Please rain this thing out and I'll buy her something after this. I'll make it up. Sure enough, it started storming. Storming. And she comes up, she's like, buh-bye, it's going to rain. I go, I know, I can't believe it, you know. And we left. It was awesome. It was great. She's like weeping and I'm walking with her. I'm like, oh, you'll be okay. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord. But we came here. And that's another thing I just want to say. We don't choose where we live. Clearly. No, this is important. Listen, you died. No, I'm serious. You died. We don't choose where we live based on what's most expensive or most convenient or who has the coolest coffee shop or what little streets are cobblestone and have little vines growing up the wall and make you feel all eclectic. And people move places or it has a nice, like weather.

That's not what the saints do. The saints are the dying ones. I was preaching in Nashville once and Heidi was there. It was always very intimidating when Heidi's watching you preach. And I said, I think I'm done traveling for a while because of the church just got planted. She pulled me aside in the back. She goes, don't you ever say that again? I said, okay, what did I do? She said, you don't have the right to tell the Lord where you'll go and what you'll do. You're dead. It marked me. I thought I was doing the pastoral balance thing because I had been traveling my whole life. She goes, no, no, no, you don't get a vote. You don't get a vote. We don't choose where we're going to go based on anything but the Lord's voice and word. I think it was Chris Vallotton who said to us, Jesse and I once, you will find your destiny where you find your place and your people. Your place and your people. You put those two together, destiny comes forth.

But I can't tell you how many people have been uprooted from the wind of the spirit that will carry them further than they could have ever carried themselves because they chose locations. I'm speaking this by the spirit. I don't even know why I'm saying it. Because they chose locations that God did not lead them to with the eyes of the flesh. It's not about the mall. It's not about the coffee. It's not about the look. It's not about the feel. It's about his voice. It's at the end of the day, he is where his voice is. When I asked Dave Papavisi, when he moved to Iraq, I said, you could die, you know that. ISIS was going through. He's been there 10 years now. I said, bro, you could die and if he's my friend. So, of course, I didn't want to lose him.

And the Lord has protected him, thank God. But he said, bro, I signed that check a long time ago. And then he told me this, I never forgot it. He said, I'm not going to Iraq to reach Muslims. I said, what? That's exactly what you're doing. He said, no, I'm going to Iraq because that's where I'm gonna walk with Jesus. I'll walk with him there in a way that I just can't walk with him here because he's called me there to be with him. That's how Paul showed up, empty. I have purpose to know nothing. And what I want for us, listen, is regardless of the request, I want this church to have one answer, Jesus. I want us to be the ones who are that crazy to believe that Jesus, who is all in all and has filled all things with himself, is actually enough for every need under the heavens. I want, when somebody comes to you with a substance abuse issue, I want you to turn them to Jesus. If they come to you with a marriage issue, I want you to turn them to Jesus.

If they come to you with a sickness in their body, turn them to Jesus. If their heart's not burning, turn them to the baptizer. If they feel alone, turn them to the shepherd. If they're bound with devils, turn them to the warrior. If they're prideful, turn them to the lamb. Turn them to Jesus every single time. I want us to have one answer, just one. I want our songs to be about Jesus. I want us to write songs to him, that come from him, that are empowered by him and are all about him. Did you hear that? I want them to be to him, about him, from him and by him. I want his glory on them. I want his spirit to empower them. I want him to be the topic of this house, until we are in glory with him. I came to you, on purpose to know nothing, except, listen to the word of the Lord, 1 Corinthians 2, and then I'm going to close it down.

1 Corinthians 2, I came to you, I determined to know nothing, or not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. There's one Jesus. There's one Jesus. When the ministry first started, I got invited to do a show in California, a TV show. And this pastor, he had like 15,000 people in his church. And I was in my early 30s. And he said, now son, what are you going to preach? I said, Jesus. And I wasn't trying to be like catchy, or start a Jesus movement. I want one, but that wasn't the agenda. I was just hooked. You know what I'm talking about? Just hooked on his beauty, because there's no one like him. And so I said, pastor, I'm going to talk about Jesus. And he said, OK, and then what? And I said, I don't know. I don't think I've got anything else.

And he said, well, we've got a problem. I'll never forget it. I said, well, what's that? He said, this show is 26 minutes long. This is what he said to me, a pastor with 15,000 people. How are you going to fill 26 minutes by just talking about Jesus? Now, you have to understand, at that time, I was like a rabid animal. I remember actually coming to a meeting y'all did, Kim, and Aliso Viejo, during that time. I think Benny Perez was there preaching as well. And people were getting touched and healed, and you were leading. I was locked away in that season, hungry for God. And I would, I'm not joking, go on like three or four 40-day fasts a year. A year. I would fast everything, except golf. He's still doing a work in me. We're not quite there yet. And I would go to Jesse's daddy's meetings, and he could like sing Old MacDonald, and 300 people would get healed. He didn't sing Old MacDonald, thank God, but it felt like he could have. And here I am, grinding. I'm going for it. I'm doing everything I know to do.

People are coming in sick, and they're leaving sick. They're coming in ready to die, many of them. They did die. People were coming in unsaved and leaving unsaved. And yet I had the scriptures in front of me, and I came to this place in my life where I said, either the Lord, it is either the Lord's fault or mine. It can't be on Him. And I looked at my life, can you help me Joel, just softly, I looked at my life and I said, it's not matching up with the life of Jesus. And all of us come to that place where we either choose Isaac or Ishmael. We're gonna choose the son of promise, the word of the Lord, or we're gonna build something on our own.

Now here's the issue. If we build something on our own, we have to keep it alive. And that's how pastors fry. That's how worship leaders fry. Are y'all listening? That's how you fry, is the machine starts steering you. And you become an employee of an agenda, of an initiative, of a schedule that is Ishmael, it is the son of the flesh, it is not the son of promise. And we come to these forks in the road, not just one time in life, multiple times, where we choose the word of the Lord, or what we will bring to the table. And friends, listen, the only thing God receives is what He Himself does.

So I began locking myself away to be with the Lord. That's the only thing I knew to do. Because that was the common denominator that I saw in everyone I looked up to. I don't know what moves you or who moves you, but if they're really anointed by the Lord, I guarantee you, they're gonna trace you back, the roots will go back to their personal walk with Jesus. I fasted, I prayed, I did all the things that I was supposed to do, I fasted, I prayed, I locked myself away, I drove to remote places, I wanted the Lord. Year after year, I wanted the Lord, I had to find Him. And I didn't know He was romancing me the whole time. And oh, the discouragement.

Now, I remember, I'd drive up to Reading, or fly up there, whatever I had to do, or go be with other people who had walked with God, or go sit with Pastor Hayford, people who knew the Lord, Oral Robertson, and Pastor Rex Humbarton, joy, and I'd sit there and just listen, and listen, and listen. And you know what, they told me what to do, I didn't get a vote. I remember joy telling me, go take a nap right now. And I'm at her house. She goes, you won't be able to receive what I'm about to tell you unless you go take a nap.

And I said, joy, I'm like 35 years old at the time. She's 80-something, she goes, no, darling boy, go take a nap in my lilac room. And it was all lilac. And I was like, uh, okay. So she treated me like I was six months old. Tucked me in, not joking, cooked a muffin for me, said, eat this so you'll be strong. I didn't sleep at all, I pretended I did. She came back in an hour on the dot, opened her Bible, and then said, now wait in silence, and we waited there for an hour. And she said, what did you hear? I said, nothing, she said, do it again. These are the people we need, I'm not joking. And over that time, the Lord was minimizing me, minimizing me, so that I would determine to know nothing. I have a long way to go. I think we bring too much to the table.

I think we have too many ideas. I think we have too many initiatives. Let's get back to Jesus. And only God knows the tipping point. But if you don't give up, the dam will break. Did you hear what I said? No, no, did you really? Are you really getting it? If you don't give up, if you don't stop seeking him, you will have your moment with him. Don't you throw in the towel. And don't sell it, don't sell your birthright, don't trade it in, don't be for sale. One glimpse of Jesus, and I don't mean just the sense of his presence, that's how it begins. And it's wonderful. Never shortchange the sense of his presence. Become addicted to the sense of his, become a master at walking with Jesus.

Let that be your, your ministry is to walk with Jesus. But I'm not talking, I'm talking about him coming your way. In a way that makes you feel like he stopped everything just to come your way. Do you know that you finding him, if you seek him with all your heart, is as much a promise as John 3.16? Is anybody hearing me who came in from all over the world tonight? You did not come here to check off your Jesus image box, that would crush my heart. You came here to find him, that's who drew you. He knew you'd be in this room before you were ever born. Don't you quit, don't you quit. He's a whisper away. Years of seeking him, years of going to places, years of sitting under people, and one night, one night, one night, one night he came. He was there the whole time, but he really came. And he is beautiful. I said, he is beautiful. This is the Christian life.

To discover and find the nail scarred one. This is glory, this is success, to be a friend of God. I remember one night, I was in Reading, we had moved there, and I was already going to sleep in my bed, and I turned on, Bill was ministering. I was tired. I feel the Lord stirring some of you tonight. I was tired, I was in my bed, I turned it on, and Bill singing, I will give you all my worship, acapella. Undeniable, undeniable, I felt the Lord come. I couldn't deny it, and I didn't want to go. And I'm there in my bed, and the Lord says, are you hungry? I have my kids on both sides of me.

And the Lord says, are you hungry? What'd you move here for? Did you move here just to say you came, or did you move here to find me? I don't know why you came, why did you come to Jesus' school, why have you become part of Jesus and his church? Why do you come to worship with us? Hopefully it's not just to say, that's where I go. Hopefully it's to find the bridegroom. I got dressed, I lived 15 minutes away from the sanctuary. By then, I guess, you know, people knew our ministry. I could've done whatever to try to get up close to the front, but it was jam-packed, and I came in from the door, just like y'all did.

I came in straight through the door. Bill was preaching, and no one would let me sit next to them, because it was too packed. I'm literally going, can I sit there? Do you have a seat? No. Is there room here? No. Is there room here? I just kept, talk about awkward and vulnerable, in the middle of the meeting. But the hungry don't care. They don't care. They've got to behold the one that's been pulling on their heart, they've got to have him. And so then Bill says, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna share the stories tonight that are offensive. Never forgot it. He goes, I want to tell you how this whole thing started. And he said, I want the young generation to know, in case you think this started in another way. And I want this house to know how this started.

This did not start with branding and a cool logo. It may never be all, but it started, it started in his glory. May it forever be in his glory. May it end with a deeper glory. And I'll never forget what happened that night, as they began to worship. The blessed power of the Holy Spirit just began to move through that crowd, and I found a seat. And people started getting healed and touched and singing in the spirit, the gifts of the spirit began being poured out. I'll never forget it. Then he said, I'm gonna do a prayer line. And I waited in line, and I was one of the last people.

And I came through, I had a hat on. I came through, and Bill looked at me, he goes, what are you doing here? Like, why did you wait in line? Why are you here? And I said, I'm hungry, Bill. And he goes, he gave me a nod, like, I understand. He gave me a nod, like, I understand. I get it. I feel that the Lord is reminding you tonight of how it all started for you. And may he take you back to certain moments, where he showed you himself, where the tears flowed, where you sang hour after hour after hour after hour, where you didn't care who knew you, who recognized you, where you'd go anywhere and sit with anyone who was his friend. May we never graduate from that place. The Christian life is a life of death, burial, and resurrection.

With every head bowed and eye closed, tonight... Actually, I'm just gonna ask us all to stand. Can we do that before I close? I don't know where you are on the spectrum of your walk with Jesus. And please do just close your eyes for a moment. I want everyone to feel safe. But what I can tell you unequivocally, based on the authority of the word of God, is that you do not have to leave here bound in sin. You do not have to leave here with chains. You don't have to leave here with porn addictions, with addictions to lust, with a gossiping tongue, with envy, bitterness. You don't have to leave with any of that. You don't have to leave tonight with the same cycles that have been passed down through your family line.

It can end tonight. I said, it can end tonight. You can actually leave here washed, cleansed, redeemed, filled, changed. If you don't want it, you don't need to leave with it. You say, Michael, what do I do? Come to Jesus. You say, how? By faith, you reach out to him. And if you're tired of that condemning feeling that you're not good enough to be in the Lord's presence, friend, it's because you've been trying to wash away your own sin. You've been trying to set yourself free. But Jesus promised that if we come to him, he will by no means cast us away, his word says, and he will set us free. And whom the Son sets free is free indeed. You will really be free. That's for everyone under the sound of my voice who is bound by the chains and the slavery of sin.

Jesus said, he who sins is a slave to it. You don't have to leave as a slave tonight. You say, Michael, I wanna be free. I want you to lift your hand right now. I wanna be free. Hallelujah. If you raised your hand or you wish you did, get down here now. Get down here, don't waste any time. If you're tired of the bondage, if you're tired of that stuff, that cycle, if you're sick of it, you want to be free. You just, you got, you need darkness to leave. And you want Jesus. Hallelujah. Thank you, Lord. Can we just begin thanking the Lord? Thank you, Jesus. This was wonderful. This is wonderful. This is wonderful. Don't you settle. Listen, I feel the heart of God. Don't settle, don't settle, don't settle for darkness. I don't care if it was your father, your grandfather, or from your mother's side.

You don't have to carry that. You can leave free tonight. Look, they're coming from all over. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord. Emma, can you, are you out there? Can you play your instrument? Thank you. The Lord's freeing many people tonight. It's just about Jesus. It's just about Jesus. It is just about Jesus. It is just about Jesus. It is about Jesus. And I declare his name over you tonight. The name of Jesus. The holy name of Jesus. The name of every name over you. Every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. The name of Jesus over you. Thank you, Lord. That's just one touch from him. That's all you need is one touch from the Lord. Those addictions, those cycles, leave now. Those chains on your mind, be gone in Jesus' name.

Those memories that plagued your heart, the abuse of the past, it goes in Jesus' name. May the Lord heal you. He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds. I declare that over you tonight. Be free, be free, be free, be free. Every hard heart, be broken. Come alive, soften. In the name of Jesus. I want us to pray this out loud. There's no doubt the Lord's touching you in the heart, but your declaration is more powerful than you could ever believe. I want us to declare this as one church family tonight. Those of you watching around the world, declare this in your homes. Heavenly Father, I've sinned against you. I know I have. Wash me in the holy blood of Jesus. Cleanse my soul. Set me free tonight of anything. That is not from you. Jesus, I come directly to you. Knowing you love me.

And I trust you tonight. Touch me. Touch me. Deeply. I believe that you died on the cross. That you suffered. That you bled. That you're buried and raised again. You are the son of God. And tonight, I give you my heart, the best I know how. I give you my heart, the best I know how. Receive me, Lord, as I receive you. Thank you for your love. Fill me with your spirit. That I would know you. In the mighty name of Jesus. Amen. Now, for those of you who came forward or those who wish you did, I wanna ask you now, just in your own words, listen, in your own words, offer your life to Jesus. It's gotta be personal. Just hand it over. Thank you, Lord. Amen. Holy Spirit, come and fill them. Fill them. David, would you come up? Fill them, fill them, fill them. Fill them, fill them, fill them. With your peace and joy. Hallelujah. I thank you, Lord. Let your mercy flow. Let your love flow. I want us to sing one song that I believe is for the house tonight, I Need Thee, Oh, I Need Thee. And then we'll go, but I want us to sing this from the depths of our hearts. C

an we just worship for a moment? I need thee, oh, I need thee. Every hour I need thee. My one defense, my righteousness. My righteousness, oh God, how I need thee. Let's sing that again. I need thee, oh, I need thee. Every hour I need thee. My one defense, my righteousness. Oh God, how I need thee. Just one more time. I need thee. I need thee, oh, I need thee. Every hour I need thee. Every hour I need thee. My one defense, my righteousness. Oh God, how I need thee. Every hour I need thee. I need you more. More than yesterday, I need you more.

More than words. More than words can say, I need you more. I need you more than ever before. I need you more. I need you more. I need you more. More than yesterday, I need you more. More than words can say, I need you more. Than ever before, I need you more. I need you more. More than the air I breathe. More than the song I sing. More than the heart I beat. More than the next heartbeat. More than anything. And Lord, as time goes by, I'll be by your side. Cause I never want to go back to my old life. To my old life. I need you more. More than yesterday, I need you more. More than words can say, I need you more. Than ever before, I need you more. More than the air I breathe. More than the song I sing. More than my next heartbeat. More than anything. And Lord, as time goes by, I'll be by your side. More than the air I breathe. I'll be by your side. Cause I never want to go back to my old life. No, I never. And I never want to go back to my old life. Cause I never want to go back to my old life.

I never want to go back to my old life. I need you more. That will bless your heart. I'll bring you more than a song, For a song in itself Is not what you have required. You search much deeper within And through the way things appear You're looking into my heart. I'm coming back to the heart of worship Where it's all about you, It's all about you, Jesus. I'm sorry, Lord, for the things I've made. When it's all about you, It's all about you, Jesus. I'm coming back to the heart of worship Where it's all about you, It's all about you, Jesus. I'm sorry, Lord, for the things I've made. When it's all about you, It's all about you, Jesus. It's all about you. It's all about you. It's all about you. Though I'm weak, Though I'm weak and poor, All I have is yours And a single breath.

Longing just to bring Something that's important That will bless your heart. I'll bring you more. I'll bring you more than a song For a song in itself Is not what you have required. You search much deeper in me And through the way things appear You're looking into my heart. I'm coming back to the heart of worship Where it's all about you, It's all about you, Jesus. I'm sorry, Lord, for the things I've made. When it's all about you, It's all about you, Jesus. I'm coming back to the heart of worship Where it's all about you, It's all about you, Jesus. I'm sorry, Lord, for the things I've made. When it's all about you, It's all about you, Jesus. I'm coming back to the heart of worship Where it's all about you, It's all about you,

Jesus. I'm sorry, Lord, for the things I've made. When it's all about you, It's all about you, Jesus. It's all about you, It's all about you, It's all about you, Jesus. It's all about you, it's all about you, it's all about you Jesus. It's all about you, it's all about you Jesus. It's all about you, it's all about you, it's all about you Jesus. It's all about you, it's all about you, it's all about you Jesus. It's all about you, it's all about you, it's all about you Jesus. It's all about you, it's all about you, it's all about you Jesus. It's all about you, it's all about you, it's all about you Jesus. Your face is all I see. And when your eyes are on this child, your grace abides to me. Oh Lord, please light the fire that once burned bright and clear.

Replace the flame of my first love, all that burns below me fear not. Oh Lord, please light the fire that once burned bright and clear. Replace the lame of my first love, all that burns below me fear not. Oh Lord, you're beautiful. Your face is all I see. And when your eyes are on this child, your grace abides to me. Oh Lord, you're beautiful. Your face is all I see. And when your eyes are on this child, your grace abides to me. Oh Lord, you're beautiful. Your face is all I see. And when your eyes are on this child, your grace abides to me. Please light the fire. Oh Lord, please light the fire that once burned bright and clear. Replace the lame of my first love, all that burns below me fear not. Oh Lord, please light the fire that once burned bright and clear. Replace the lame of my first love, all that burns below me fear not. Oh Lord, please light the fire that once burned bright and clear. Replace the lame of my first love, all that burns with me fear not. Oh Lord, you're beautiful. Your face is all I see. Replace your eyes are on this child, your grace abides to me.

Oh Lord, you're beautiful. Your face is all I see. And when your eyes are on this child, your grace abides to me. Amen. Amen. I know that your eyes are like flames of fire. I know your hair is white as wool. I know that your voice, it sounds like waters. Jesus, you're beautiful. I know that your eyes are like flames of fire. I know your hair is white as wool. I know that your voice, it sounds like waters. Jesus, you're beautiful. And I know that your eyes are like flames of fire. I know your hair is white as wool. I know that your voice, it sounds like waters. Jesus, you're beautiful. And I know that your eyes are like flames of fire. I know that your hair is white as wool. And I know that your voice, it sounds like waters. Jesus, you're beautiful. And I know that your eyes are like flames of fire.

I know your hair is white as wool. And I know that your voice, it sounds like waters. Jesus, you're beautiful. And I know that your eyes are like flames of fire. I know that your hair is white as wool. I know that your voice, it sounds like waters. Jesus, you're beautiful. And Jesus, you're beautiful. Jesus, you're beautiful. Jesus, you're beautiful. And Jesus, you're beautiful. Jesus, You're beautiful Jesus, You're beautiful Oh, we sing tonight, yeah Jesus, You're beautiful Jesus, You're beautiful Jesus, You're beautiful Oh, Jesus, You're beautiful Jesus, You're beautiful Jesus, You're beautiful We sing, we sing Jesus, You're beautiful Jesus, You're beautiful Jesus, You're beautiful We cry to You Jesus, You're beautiful Jesus, You're beautiful Jesus, You're beautiful Oh, Jesus, You're beautiful Jesus, You're beautiful Jesus, You're beautiful. I know that your voice it sounds like waters Jesus, you're beautiful And I know that your eyes are like flames of fire I know that you're everywhere

And I know that your voice it sounds like waters Jesus, you're beautiful And I know that your eyes are like flames of fire I know that your air it's white as wool And I know that your voice it sounds like waters Jesus, you're beautiful And I know that your eyes are like flames of fire I know that your air it's white as wool And I know that your voice it sounds like waters Jesus, you're beautiful And Jesus, you're beautiful And Jesus, you're beautiful And Jesus, you're beautiful And Jesus, you're beautiful And Jesus, you're beautiful . Jesus, You're beautiful. There is no one like You in the heavens or on the earth. There is no one like You in the heavens or on the earth.There is no one like You in the world There is no one like You in the heavens or on the earth You are my one thing You are my one thing I don't want anyone else I don't need anything else You are my one thing I don't want anyone else I don't need anything else You are my one thing I don't want anyone else I don't need anything else You are my one thing You are my one thing I don't want anyone else I don't need anything else You are my one thing I don't want anyone else I don't need anything else You are my one thing You are my one thing I don't want anyone else I don't need anything else You are my one thing I don't want anyone else I don't need anything else You are my one thing I don't want anyone else I don't need anything else You are my one thing I don't want anyone else I don't need anything else.You are my world, You You are my world, You You are my world,

Thank you for this labor of love beloved brother Vern! I had not listened to the message yet, but did read your transcription this morning and it really edified and encouraged my soul.

Love you brother! ❤️

Jesus, Jesus, Jesus! 🙌

Beautiful transcript... This will be hard to believe for many but this man is a product of beni hinn .

Hi dear brother Gary,

I had no idea that he married Benny Hinn’s daughter even! Wow!

Not knowing who this man is, and not watching or listening to this message, but rather just reading it, I was really blessed by it.

For me, when I listen to or watch the messages, depending on the setting (where it’s being preached) or who the preacher is associated with, it can have an affect on me, or create a bias for me, one way or another.

So in this instance, I’m actually glad that I did not have any context for who this preacher is before I read the transcript.

Because so much of the content really encouraged me. Whereas had I known more about him and his associations before, I may have not even given the message a consideration, for better or for worse.

It’s really interesting to me how that can happen.

I’m convinced that God can speak to anyone, through anyone, as He pleases.

Hi Caleb, in hindsight I probably shouldn't have said anything about Benny hinn. But it was men like Michael that help me see through my bias judgement against people like Benny hinn and others from the charismatic movement, which brought on conviction of a sin of not loving the body of Christ and the sin of slandering his bride, which then led to an outpouring of the spirit of my own life which I'd been praying for for 20 years and though my lack of love had been blocking and hindering my own prayers. Even seeing the love that both of them have towards one another and now the fruit in Michael's life showed me that I was missing something in my own life which was called loving My Brother. When we all face the judgement seat of Christ the question will be posed to us by our lord Jesus ;(did we learn to love) and many people on that day will not be able to confess that they did, and many will find out that they learnt how to judge instead. Bless you Caleb and my God pour out his love upon us all and help us to love one another even when we're wrong or when we don't understand one another 🙏🕎☝️

Thank you for sharing some of your personal testimony here brother Gary! I can sense the love of the Lord coming through your words. Aspects of what you shared are similar to things that I have gone through with the Lord as well. ❤️🙏

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." 1 John 4:7,8

With all due respect, Jesus will definitely not ask us if we have learned to love. Unless you are standing on His left hand, you have love (Jesus) in you.

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." Acts 20:29-31

Can you imagine that? Paul must have been such a bummer to be around, slandering the body of Christ like that. Or take David Wilkerson, for example: he said Benny Hinn was preaching a doctrine of demons when he said Jesus was going to physically appear on stage with him in Africa (which never happened, by the way.)

Benny has gathered many millions of dollars from donations, living a lavish lifestyle, spending tens of thousands of dollars in a single night on the best hotels in the world, buying designer clothes, eating expensive meals, much of it off the backs of poor, desperate, sick and dying people.

Such a man is not serving Jesus of Nazareth. It is not unloving to use discernment.

Listen to Costi Hinn (Benny's nephew and the man who would probably have been in Michael Koulianos' place as heir of his ministry.) Costi was unsaved the entire time he worked with Benny Hinn. That's because Benny has no power in his preaching, just emotional manipulation. He doesn't preach the gospel.

Here is a video (reposted by a youtuber who goes by the moniker "godless girl": notice how these people bring reproach on the body of Christ) that shows you what Benny is like when we are allowed to look at him with his lambs clothing not on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID6itEMHcCk

Brother Nigel. I hear you. I too sense there is good reason to be wary of Benny Hinn. Yet reading the transcribed message by his son-in-law still really blessed me, as there is truth contained therein. At the time I read it, I didn’t even know who the brother was, or who he is related to.

I know a man who has such a strong testimony. He would spend 10,000 hours and more in personal time with Jesus. He devoted himself to the teachings of Christ and personally experienced the great grace and powers of the Holy Spirit. He had a great calling to minister to others and he personally evangelized and healed many.

Perhaps you know this man also. His name was Judas.

Many of his closest coworkers and friends had no idea that Judas had idols in the heart, primarily money and self in the form of selfish ambition. In the end, he fell away because his god was actually his human appetites or his "stomach”. He was actually a savage wolf in the end and betrayed his master. Paul said to beware such men and he wept day and night for the churches and warned them about the dangers waiting for those who weren’t alert and aware.

I’m not saying Benny Hinn is that at all. I’m wary of him because of his lifestyle. But make no mistake, discernment and warning of the false, even if they speak the truth at times, even if they look like sheep, even if they walk in power, is a call of God on every spiritually mature believer to warn and protect those who are immature and subject to being tossed around or deceived into following bad examples that we can love the world and the things of the world and love Jesus.

Caleb, I am not saying there is anything wrong with Michael's message. I don't know the man; he may be serving the Lord out of a pure heart.

But he preaches alongside Benny. That alone is cause for extreme caution.

There is One who walks through the streets, knocking at the doors. He has something to offer. What is it? It is His love.

Everyone He meets He stops to ask, "Will you take what I have to offer ”” My love? You are looking for something to make you happy, aren’t you? You would give good money for it, devote time and energy to searching for it. But now I am offering you My love. In it you will find everything you are looking for and everything that could make you happy. Take My word for it and accept My offer.”

"What must I do to receive it?” you ask. He replies, "Make room so that My love can flow in. My gift of love has no equal. But there is this one condition: that you make room for it. I cannot make this gift to a heart that is already filled. I am looking for an empty heart. Empty your heart of everything filling it, and you will find the most valuable gift, the most wonderful gift in all the world: a love relationship between you and Me ”” the deepest, closest, purest, holiest, and strongest possible. Surrender all else, and you will find it!”

Although Jesus stands humbly knocking at the door of our hearts, He has lost nothing of His royal dignity. He knows that in offering His love, He is offering the greatest blessing for time and for eternity, the greatest gift a person could ever desire or receive. This is why He challenges us to such radical discipleship, saying, "Whoever of you does not renounce all that he has . . .” (Luke 14:33); "He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:37); "If any one ... does not hate his own father and mother ... and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:26).

From, "My All For Him" -Basilea Schlink

Caleb, I am not saying there is anything wrong with Michael's message.

Gotcha brother. Thanks for clarifying. 🙏👊

I have a serious question. The message of the sermon really touches me. But i have concerns about the music in the end.

I really got annoyed of it and it make me somehow confused when the worship starts to get... i dont know.. they repeat the same verse over and over again for minutes. Then they repeat the next verse over and over again. And so on...

To be honest i am a bit afraid of this kind of worship. I am afraid to produce a false feeling that i would interpreted as the Love of Jesus but in reality my emotions got manipulated. Something like singing my self in trance.

I long for the Love of Jesus and i defensively lost my first love with him. But i also see that there are so many pit falls in the charismatic movement so that i don't know what is really from god and what not. I like this message alot: Its all about Jesus. Thats the point.

What do you think about this Music? Is it wrong and the message right?

btw. you can Watch and listen the Full Service including the Sermon here. Benny Hinn is also in this Video

https://www.youtube.com/live/NjBHSYxxUJA?feature=shared&t=7605

Anyone any answer?

Jeremiah,

Youre discernment is spot on dear brother. You will find that touching that topic is akin to pointing out the golden calf in the camp, and many still mistake the sound of revelry for sounds of war.

I would say seek the Lord dear brother, man will fail you in these questions. Just be prepared to lose your life with Jesus in these matters, and follow Him. You will face a good deal of persecution and misunderstanding if you follow the Holy Spirit concerning the difference between His working, and the workings of soul and flesh.

It will always come down to what is right for yourself and doing what is right in your own eyes, and rarely will you find anyone who tells you the Lord actually calls people to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

Seek Him on these matters and when He reveals His truth, let every man be a liar and God be true.

Jeremiah, you wrote;
"To be honest i am a bit afraid of this kind of worship. I am afraid to produce a false feeling that i would interpreted as the Love of Jesus but in reality my emotions got manipulated. Something like singing my self in trance."

I agree with your discernment !
I also found that his message over all is empty, althoug he uses many biblical phrases.

Please keep seeking, be discerning, be watchful and careful !
Pray, read the Word of God, listen to different preachers, if you can, find a good Biblical fellowship.
I believe the Holy Spirit is already guiding you.

Be encouraged !

Markus

Amen Markus.

To be honest i am a bit afraid of this kind of worship. I am afraid to produce a false feeling that i would interpreted as the Love of Jesus but in reality my emotions got manipulated. Something like singing my self in trance.

The song at the end of the first video Greg posted , was written by Keith Green, "Oh Lord You're Beautiful." Even Leonard Ravenhill liked Keith Green and his songs.

Oh, Lord, You're beautiful
Your face is all I seek
For when Your eyes are on this child
Your grace abounds to me
Oh, Lord, You're beautiful
Your face is all I seek
For when Your eyes are on this child
Your grace abounds to me

And then on the end of the video you posted, the song they sing is by Matt Redman, The Heart of Worship. Here is a video saying why he wrote that song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m83TSHhg-jU

Jesus doesn't manipulate your feelings. I don't understand why you "fear" worshipping the Lord and those that chimed in with you.

If you do not appreciate that music, then so be it. Have you ever asked the Lord if you would go into a "trance" if you sang those songs or not,? Who told you people sang themselves into a trance?

If you fear these type of worship songs, that is between you and Jesus. Please do not judge those who don't have a problem with them and enjoy them.

God bless,
Lisa

Lysa,

It isn't about the subject matter, or the original authors and singers of the song. Keith Green was a dear brother in the Lord, but that doesn't stop the misuse of his music to invoke soulish response and manipulate an emotional atmosphere.

Satan quotes scripture, which is proof enough the subject matter and author means absolutely nothing.

We are in an age of deep and numerous deceptions, and gone are the days of blatant heresy and obvious false teachings. These are the days of false signs and wonders, extremely devious false teachers who are deceived themselves, which makes them all the more dangerous because they have a level of sincerity that invokes sympathy and empathy in those that seek to please men and have not learned of the Lord to discern between spirit, soul and flesh. It's the days where men heap to themselves teacher having itching ears, seeking things that please them.

What is so often overlooked is that not all itching ears blatantly seek false doctrine and false teachers. Some people seek uncomfortable teaching and scriptural truths with the same selfish motives. THIS is last days deception, and THIS is a true wolf in sheeps clothing. A teacher that preaches just enough truth to slip in things that will be overlooked and accepted because of the truth they do preach, while their ministry or teachings in general will still lead souls to hell.

Discernment is much more than simply comparing things to scripture, no matter how important that is. Discernment is submitting to allow the Lord to lead you (our ability to follow is fallible) into all truth, without sentimentality, sympathy, or any other man centered, emotional, soulish motives or considerations. Without that surrender we will allow our own prejudices, natural proclivities, natural likes and dislikes to muddy the water.

Your appeal to authorship and other brethren who enjoyed and promoted the original usage of the music is the point actually. It's an emotional appeal to defend emotional appeals, and this sort of cycle is what ultimately leads to the blinding reality that soul and flesh have a deep seated hold on the professing church (not saying you, that is a general statement).

We have to stop telling people to refrain from discerning truth from error on the grounds of emotion and sentimentality. It's easy to appeal to someones conscience by making them think they are being judgmental, and then threaten them into accepting anything under the threat of some punishment or judgment because they are slandering the church, or some preacher. These are in no way metrics for truth and error, and this constant barrage of appealing to other peoples fear of being "holier than thou" or "judgmental" is the foundation of the very error we see ravaging the world today, and taking many people captive as twofold sons of hell. There is judging someone, and than there is discerning the spirits, and this is solidly in the realm of discernment.

No one mentioned any fear of worshiping God, the fear was that this wasn't in fact worship, but emotional manipulation. Now I would counsel our brother to not use the fear of that reality as a motivation to denounce it, because that is the same cycle. We must allow the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to us, and this is the standard. He will check us and lead us into spiritual worship based in truth, and an obvious emotional and manipulative atmosphere is not that.

We are in dark and deceptive times, and I thank the Lord our brother Jeremiah is sensitive to the Holy Spirit in these things. More brethren need to allow Jesus to show them the difference between soul and spirit, those exhortations are not in the Bible to be ignored.

Brother Jeremiah don't fall into the trap planted there by phusdo piety which is a product of the religious spirit that operates within churchyannity and within the legalistic framework of religion that will try to come against the anointing and come against the liberty and freedom of worship in the spirit
it will come against emotions as if emotions are evil, God is called us to love him with all our mind heart soul and strength the soul is one of the primary ways we worship in the spirit.

This type of religious legalistic approach and influence will lead you down the path to dryness will quench whatever remaining spirit you have in you and will bring on quite a strong deception this spirit operates in true Christians and in Cults and it also operates in non-christian religions.

Always pour out your whole soul when you pray and worship in the spirit never bind your emotions through your own will or allow others to put your emotions and affections in a religious box,it's part of loving God with all your mind heart soul and strength which is the greatest commandment.

Satan will always attack some of the most important things in the Christian life, worship and the spirit of prayer and supplication which can lead a person to become beside themselves with weeping and groaning will always be the target of this religious spirit and he will cause suspicion and judgment in the heart of believer to quench those attributes of man which were given to him through being created in the image of God.

Beware of the spirit of fundamentalism.

Enjoy Jesus and those who pour out the hearts to him in song and praise. Weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice be a one mind with the liberty of worship https://youtu.be/ivUb1K0B0zE?si=aHd0JWS-WIA-er6y

Ironically that proves the truth of my previous post, and that using fear and manipulation to prove points and move people in particular directions is incredibly prevalent.

Thank you Gary.

May the Holy Spirit lead us into all truth and glorify Jesus.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12

Always judge everything by the word of God. If I lived in the first century and the teacher I was listening to was good friends with Diotrephes or Simon Magus, and even had them preach sometimes, I would walk away from that pastor or ministry.

Some people settle for a soulish, emotional experience in worship, because they are experience driven and not faith driven.

Brethren,

We need to experience God. An experience of God touches the body, soul, and spirit. The question is do you know God intimately, do you know His presence? Do you spend time in the secret place with Him.

Demanding that we can only listen to worship that is 100+ years old is wrong. I love the hymns and we should embrace everything for our good and worship of God.

_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

God bless,
Lisa

Jeremiah wrote:
"But i have concerns about the music in the end."

He had "concerns", he didn't judge anyone and he didn't demand anything.
He asked us what we think.
And some of us tried to answer his question and we gave our opinions.

Gary wrote:
"This type of religious legalistic approach and influence will lead you down the path to dryness will quench whatever remaining spirit you have in you and will bring on quite a strong deception."
Greg:"We need to experience God"

After 4 decades as a Christian I have experienced the Lord many times.
The more I experience His leading, His mercy and His grace the more I love him.
I want to read His Word every day and I love to listen to godly Sermons and music.
Nothing fulfills me more then know Christ.
The more I get to know Him and grow in Him, the less I'm "tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine" (Eph 4:14a)
This gives me enormous peace in this mad world and a joy that no one else can give me.
May you all experience it too !

It is all "Amazing grace" !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG0vH4WYChQ

Markus

In 1972, I was born again, and the first album that I bought after experiencing the love and presence of God was "Love Song”. Love is not a feeling, and many times we pray and worship the Lord with no emotional feeling, but out of our will, knowing that God loves us.

50 years later I am still singing love songs to Jesus surrounded by believers of all ages. Yes, and most of the time we sense the presence and love of God. God wants us to know Him experientially. Jesus said:
"The person who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who [really] loves Me; and whoever [really] loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him [I will make Myself real to him].”

https://youtu.be/hw8TbEaAceE?si=0f0OjfP_sSkdMj1N

Greg,

No one said anything about limiting music to a certain time period.

And no one has denied experientially knowing God.

The issue arises when experience and emotion, aka, soul, is the litmus test in what is real and authentic. Knowing God by faith is to know God even in dryness and times when God will purposefully not make Himself known in these ways, because it is in these times that the faith of a believer is truly tested. To many people equate soulish experience with the true presence of God, and this is the error that enslaves millions today.

I have been called everything from a liberal mystic to a legalistic fundamentalist, these labels and pigeon holes are proven, just in my life, as mans ways to discredit things and remain in the little bubble that makes them comfortable and immune the expansion of the Spirit and His guidance in our lives. Jesus calls us out from these things and to follow Him in faithful obedience.

The more I get to know Jesus, the less I trust in my own abilities to even follow Him, or know His leading. I have learned I cannot trust myself in anything, but must solely rely on His ability to lead me, His ability to live through me, and His faithfulness. It is when my eyes are taken from Him and set on things like experience and emotional manipulations, and other things that are squarely flesh and soul, that I find myself faltering, because faith looks to Jesus, and experience looks to self. Walking in the Spirit is walking by faith apart from everything else, no matter the experience, circumstances, reactions of men, naysaying and opposition, or anything else. Not God first, but God only.

Soulish belief is doomed to fail. We need brethren walking in the Spirit by faith, not walking in experience by emotion and manipulation, always seeking the next strange fire and big thing.

We walk by faith, not by sight.

Mike,

I was saved in 1978 and my first albums were Dallas Holm, Keith Green, Janny, Gary Paxton and Larry Norman!! That's a wide variety but I enjoyed them all and still do.

God is good.

Worship is seriously not about the music we listen to. Worship is a lifestyle. Some understand that and some do not.

God bless,
Lisa

I agree that we have to experience God. I was born again in 2004 and i did defensively experienced God. Jesus visited me in my apartment when i was alone. He showed me -his heart-, did speak with me and changed -my heart-. I saw the cross and what he did for us. I saw all my sins and at the same time he showed me his love. After that i had a real relationship with him but i lost HIM.

And i also wanna say that i experienced him in worship. I know what true worship is when it comes out of a loving heart for God. Its not about the music, its about Jesus.
I want to have Jesus back. And i know that we can experience him in our relationship with him. But to strive after that is dangerous and i am very careful.

True worship comes from a born again heart that worships Jesus. And you will experience God in Worship. But what i am worried about is to jump on the wrong train.
"Because" i lost my relationship with Jesus, i am in special danger for excepting something as a substitute for his love.
In Buddhism they repeat Mantras over and over again to get into trance, to get connected to some spiritual power. And when i listen to these modern worship sets where they repeat one and the same verse for 10 Minutes again and again, iam worried to get fooled.

All i want to know is, how the people here think about this topic. I just don't know whats the truth about this kind of worship. The Message "Restoring the first Love for Jesus" did touched me, but the worship in the end (And i don't speak about "The heart of Worship" btw. one of my favorite Songs). I speak about these mantra-like repetitions of verses in the worship set. Again: I don't know if this is wrong worship. That's why iam asking. To find out. But if i find out that it is wrong, there is nothing wrong with judging it.

I want Jesus and not some emotional experience that makes me believe it is Jesus.

"I want Jesus and not some emotional experience that makes me believe it is Jesus.”

Amen Brother! I have been in meetings where there were many physical manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It is very easy to be deceived if you are seeking some feeling or manifestation. There is safety in seeking Jesus only, keeping our eyes on Him.

You have one group saying this is all of God, another group saying it is all of the devil, and then there are those that are discerning.

"but examine everything; hold firmly to that which is good.”
(1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Has anyone noticed that there's no scriptural basis, no apostles doctrine that warns against having emotional responses while worshiping or to bewarey and critical of all this sort of perceived emotional experience.

Not a single verse, because it's an extra biblical doctrine to cause people to be bound in suspension about getting overly excited and soulish while worshipping, it's actually not a biblical doctrine and was never addressed because there was never an issue but it is actually a doctrine created to cause confusion so that God's people would be too scared to worship incase they got in the flesh or to soulish.

These doctrines are not biblical and are of the flesh them selves they don't come from the holy spirit but from spiritual Pride because the holy spirit expects us to get beside ourselves when we worship in the spirit with our soul mind and body, with extreme groning in the spirit of intersession, and other times in silent worship.

This doctrine has always been associated with fundamentalism and the religious spirit and gets taken to such extremes that people even forbid to have a musical instrument even in the house of God and they forbid for you to lift up your hands and even dance with joy because it all looks so fleshy.

It's called false humility brothers, and takes no account of or understanding regarding the development of babes in Christ and the mature and all those in between when they come together to worship and praise God with all our spirit soul and body and whatever flesh is active in the babe of Christ which is natural as they are growing and something that has to be tolerated if it's there because Christ has not been formed within them yet.

True spiritual discernment is quenched through judgment and the log in the eye causes blindness towards the body of Christ and is the plague that is in the body of Christ may God pour out his spirit and bring Unity and deliverance from this sin and the spirits that causes this deception.✝️🙏💜

I've said for years, and it's been my personal experience, that when God touches someone, He touches the whole man. Emotions included.

But it can't be limited to an emotional experience, and emotions can't substitute for the presence of God. It has to touch the spirit, the inner man.

I love Jesus Music from the 1970's and 80's. 2nd Chapter Of Acts is one of my favorite bands, and I think their song "Room Noise" has a very pertinent message for the church today.

Here are some lyrics:

No more conversation
No more idle words
Pitter, pitter, patter
Words fall from your ladder
Pseudo gospel music
Music everywhere
But not a single drop
To drink anywhere

Gospel gospel music's
An alternative
Then you never have to
Change the way you live...
Idle idol lyrics
Floating through the air
Invisible netting
Emotional snare...

Here is a link to the song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRWmKiSRd9E

Amen Nigel.

Brothagary,

If you link flesh desires and selfishness to flesh emotions, then you will understand what soulish emotions are referring to. If you can make that connection which actually is in Scripture from beginning to end, then your statement about no Scripture addressing flesh emotions is very wrong. There most definitely are carnal emotions as there are carnal thoughts and wisdom and a carnal will. Indisputable. Can Christians fall into carnal and mere human wisdom, emotions and thinking ? When it is of self for self, James says so as does Paul to the Corinthian church. Thus, discernment is the key to avoid participating in or falling into the snare of old man " spirituality” that is really as Jakes says, spiritual adultery.

Robert that's a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

You've just made statements that are not made anywhere in the apostles teachings about how the body of Christ should and shouldn't worship when it comes to flesh and the soul. I noticed you didn't use any biblical verses because you would have to stretch them so far out of context that it would be obvious that that is what you would have done for this particular subject.

Whenever we deal with the flesh in the apostles doctrine we're dealing with blatent sinful behaviour, and rebellion and particular sins that are directly mentioned within the verses that talk about the flesh.

To be fair to what the apostle Paul had to deal with what he mentioned in his letters was mainly diverse tongues being used out of order which was still a spiritual activity that he never even mentioned being part of the flesh or an outright sin in its own right, and then the taking off communion in an un worthy fashion by the church at Corinth which would be a worship situation being out of order and the flesh entering into that context but these things have nothing to do with people pouring out their heart and emotions and soul and using their body for worship in the manner that we're talking about using Jesus image worship as an example for instance.

Hi Jeremiah,

I would like to encourage you with this verse:

”­Philippians”¬ ”­1:6”¬ ”­BSB”¬
[6] being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

God is faithful and so good to us.
Your testimony is wonderful and continue to put your trust in Jesus Christ. I will pray for you that God strengthens your heart.

God bless you

Hi Gary,

The Bible does say how we are to rejoice when we worship God. During the festivals that God appointed, God wants us to rejoice. David danced in the presence of the LORD.
There are many scriptural references on how the Levites praised God. During war, during festivals and so on. We are to praise God with the tambourines and instruments.

However, during worship, there is an order because God is Holy. Paul mentions how we are not to get drunk during a meeting. Back then, during fellowship, the believers had bread and wine for communion. Some people ate too much, and some people drank too much, and this was what Paul was warning about not respecting the body of Messiah. When worshiping God, I sometimes am moved in heart and cry because God reveals how much He loves me and sonetimes I dance.

Jeremiah mentioned in a previous post,
"In Buddhism they repeat Mantras over and over again to get into trance, to get connected to some spiritual power. And when i listen to these modern worship sets where they repeat one and the same verse for 10 Minutes again and again, iam worried to get fooled."
This reminds me of how Elijah challenged the prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel to see whose God is real.

”­1 Kings”¬ ”­18:21”­-”¬39”¬ ”­BSB”¬
[21] Then Elijah approached all the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him. But if Baal is God, follow him.” But the people did not answer a word. [22] Then Elijah said to the people, "I am the only remaining prophet of the Lord, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. [23] Get two bulls for us. Let the prophets of Baal choose one bull for themselves, cut it into pieces, and place it on the wood but not light the fire. And I will prepare the other bull and place it on the wood but not light the fire. [24] Then you may call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The God who answers by fire, He is God.” And all the people answered, "What you say is good.” [25] Then Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Since you are so numerous, choose for yourselves one bull and prepare it first. Then call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” [26] And they took the bull that was given them, prepared it, and called on the name of Baal from morning until noon, shouting, "O Baal, answer us!” But there was no sound, and no one answered as they leaped around the altar they had made. [27] At noon Elijah began to taunt them, saying, "Shout louder, for he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or occupied, or on a journey. Perhaps he is sleeping and must be awakened!” [28] So they shouted louder and cut themselves with knives and lances, as was their custom, until the blood gushed over them. [29] Midday passed, and they kept on raving until the time of the evening sacrifice. But there was no response; no one answered, no one paid attention. [30] Then Elijah said to all the people, "Come near to me.” So all the people approached him, and he repaired the altar of the Lord that had been torn down. [31] And Elijah took twelve stones, one for each tribe of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord had come and said, "Israel shall be your name.” [32] And with the stones, Elijah built an altar in the name of the Lord. Then he dug a trench around the altar large enough to hold two seahs of seed. [33] Next, he arranged the wood, cut up the bull, placed it on the wood, [34] and said, "Fill four waterpots and pour the water on the offering and on the wood.” "Do it a second time,” he said, and they did it a second time. "Do it a third time,” he said, and they did it a third time. [35] So the water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench. [36] At the time of the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet approached the altar and said, "O Lord, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that You are God in Israel and that I am Your servant and have done all these things at Your command. [37] Answer me, O Lord! Answer me, so that this people will know that You, the Lord, are God, and that You have turned their hearts back again.” [38] Then the fire of the Lord fell and consumed the sacrifice, the wood, the stones, and the dust, and it licked up the water in the trench. [39] When all the people saw this, they fell facedown and said, "The Lord, He is God! The Lord, He is God!”

Notice how the prophets of Baal were so emotional, shouting louder and louder and they cut themselves. The prophets of Baal where prophesying frantically for fire to come down from heaven. It's quite disturbing to hear how Christian music has such practice of mantra to see fire coming down from heaven.

When we go back even further, Cain offered the fruit of his crops as his sacrifice to God. This is how he worshiped God but he was not accepted. He put his fleshly effort to please God and was not accepted. His emotion got to him and murdered his brother Abel because God accepted his offering which was done by faith.

There are more scriptural references on how we should worship God and I believe God will accept our worship when it is done by faith and not by our own fleshly effort.

God bless you

Hi yulborn, I've got nothing against tambourines but are you saying you only use a tambourine when you worship God or are you saying we should all be using tambourines? Are you saying we should be keeping the feasts according to every jot and title of the law along with the keeping of the Sabbath and all the dietary commandments?

I'm not saying don't use tambourine but does that mean you can't use a guitar because King David didn't use guitar. ? We need to watch going into the law and then creating a new covenant law that bounds us to the old requirements because that alone can create massive can of worms that gets opened and before you know it you bring yourself back under an old covenant.

But why not dance like David danced. Amen 🙏

And using an example of some false pagan prophets who got emotional when they worship their god as somehow a reason that you can't get emotional when you worship your God or I can't get emotional when I worship my God , this is I'm not sure what else to call it other than a straw man.

With that line of thinking when we see the prophets pray and call upon their false gods that means we can't pray and call upon our God because they do this doesn't make any sense.

And I would never have said that pagans and cults don't worship and get emotional when they beat themselves into a trance I don't know anyone that would deny anything like that if they've studied occult and pagan religions, but there's a lot of similarities between pagan religions and the true religion that's why say Satan is a deceiver.

For new covenant worship and practice and church economy by far the best person to go to is the apostle Paul when it comes to gentiles and the liberty that gentiles were under Paul had deep revelation about that sort of thing not that I'm against Jewish practices if someone wants to keep a Sabbath day or have a feast.

Gentiles are not under according to Paul any of the old covenant requirements that the Jews were under when it come to the annual feasts and fasts we're free to follow or free to not, some esteem a one day above another and others asteam every day alike.

The first council of Jerusalem dealt with that and it's clearly written in the book of acts what parts of the mosaic covenant the gentiles had to follow and the main part was things strangled and blood was to be kept away from according to them and idolatry and sexual immorality which is expected but when it comes to worship practices the gentiles weren't under the mosaic Precepts.

Apostle Paul and his letter to the Galatians and to the Romans was dealing with Judaizers who were men that came from James who taught the gentiles that they had to keep the law of Moses as well and get circumcised and Paul called this a false gospel obviously you probably know about that so there's very shaky ground to stand on when it comes to bringing gentiles under the most sake law that was given to the Jews. Blessing to you too brother 🙏✝️💜

Jas 3:14

But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth.
This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.
For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing.

James 4. What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is the source not your pleasures that wage war in your body’s parts?
You lust and do not have, so you commit murder. And you are envious and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask.
You ask and do not receive, because you ask with the wrong motives, so that you may spend what you request on your pleasures.

Prayer is worship.

Surely, you have experienced people and worship settings that are meant to appeal to selfish desires.

Today I happened to watch a call to worship music set that began with a Led Zepplin song which of course is an extreme example but appeals to the flesh occur in some settings and the flesh responds with its own kind of happiness, enthusiasm and satisfaction.

Brothagary, I would appreciate to hear from others who concur with you as you seem to suggest that the desires and emotions of the flesh cannot be just as corrupted as the conscience, the will and the mind.

There is a kind of professing Christian who seems to take root with joy but in the end it falls away because the heart was never changed. That joy could not be of the Spirit as the person was not born again. The communion table in Corinth was being dishonored by the selfish hearts of those participating and God made them sick or some died. The offering of Annanias and Saphira was corrupted by their proud and deceitful hearts. All this is worship.

Are you suggesting that the mind, the will, and the conscience can be corrupted but not the emotions ?

If you want more Scripture consider that we must pray, worship, sing and serve in the Spirit. This does not happen automatically. If someone isn't doing these things in the Spirit, aren't they by definition doing it in the flesh and all its pleasure and selfish satisfaction and that which is done in the flesh does not please God at all. In fact, it is an abomination.

Colossians 1:9-12

For this reason also, since the day we heard this, we haven’t stopped praying for you. We are asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding, so that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, so that you may have great endurance and patience, joyfully giving thanks to the Father, who has enabled you to share in the saints’ inheritance in the light.

The Old Man can still worship and get feelings and emotions rolling and this has been proven over the centuries. The soulish emotions, mind, and will belong to the Old Man. We still have to put on the new man and pray for the Spirit in order to worship in the right set of mind, will and emotions. None of that can be assumed to happen every time we worship even with born again Christians.

We must pray for God to pour into us His Godly emotions like love, joy, humility, etc. It's not automatic just because we pray, sing, praise or serve.

Thank you guys for the encouragement and also thank you for sharing your opinion.

My thoughts to the tambourine...
Some people say that Music with rhythm, like the modern Worship(rock) today is pagan and we should not practice it. Main argument is that we only find these Rhythm-Music in Heathen-Religions to celebrate religious ceremony's and never been used in church history. And as far as i know this is true. And when we look how the modern music in general in the last century's started(before that time they had no rhythm), it always went along with rebellion against christian values in society. So its not so deliberative that there could be something to it.

But i never thought about the tambourine and for me this instrument can't be played without rhythm. So it's a good argument against this theory.

btw. Can someone recommend a book about the manifested presence of god? especially with regard to the personal relationship with Jesus?

Hi Robert no I'm definitely not saying that, I believe in total depravity what I'm saying is you can't judge by outward appearance and so because someone's dancing jumping up and down and screaming like they do in many revivals and also in Michael church it doesn't mean that it's a fleshly worship meeting taking place, but I always bear in mind the apostle Paul said babes in Christ can still be carnal or o should say they definitely are carnal still and in Hebrews it says those that are on milk don't discern good from evil as the matured do this is natural and normal so there's always going to be babes in Christ mixed in with matured saints worshipping the same God enjoying the presence.

And I agree with you that carnal worship that's void of the presence of the spirit and that can be in Pentecostal charismatic but more so in cessationist churches where they don't experience revival, if the presence of God doesn't show up he doesn't show up so whatever emotions are stirred up in those settings will be more likely carnal.

But when it comes to completely flesh the apostle Paul says you are not in the flesh if the spirit of God dwells in you so those that are born of God and I would go as far as saying filled with the spirit are not walking in the flesh by default according to the apostle Paul if you don't know the verse let me know and I'll get it for you and that's how he distinguished the Christian from the non-christian, before conversion you are in the flesh period and cannot please God.

But like I was saying brother the main issue is not to judge by outward appearance because it doesn't line up with our denominational biased which we all can have , but do you know what we all can have unless we have Christ fully formed in US, as Paul said that the fivefold ministry was designed for that purpose until the perfect man to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, until that takes place we still have the residue of nature that we all deal with so we shouldn't be pointing the finger especially when we don't know the hearts of the people.

As you said in your last paragraphs about the old man and none of that can be assumed to happen every time, well
neither can it be assumed that it doesn't happen and when it doesn't happen and who it doesn't happen with etc, that is the natural state of any congregation especially those that are not custom to any revival and are not accustomed to the baptism of the spirit so the more likely place you will find that is not in charismatic and Pentecostal churches if they're moving in their corporate anointing.

Brother when it comes to falling away as you mentioned the Calvinist has no choice but to say anyone who falls away was not a true Christian because it's the only way for him to blend in his belief system with the perseverance of the Saints and the once saved always saved belief that they have, which I once had myself, and I think when we look at the parable of the sower calvinism aside we can see that some people definitely don't get converted and fall away from the drawing of the spirit but others do get converted and they rejoice but the cares of this world and riches eventually chokes out their spiritual life and they fall away or trials and tribulation come and they fall away but I believe many of those are saved and they lose their salvation because sin choked out the word of God and they were like a dog returning to their own vomit or a sow having washed returning to the wallow or like Paul said a branch being cut off from the vine again. Lord have Mercy 🙏

But that's really not anything to do with I'm talking about what I'm talking about brother you're going to get Christians that are not converted in every single congregation along with babes in Christ adolescence teenagers grown men and then old matured Saints it's always like that.

Brother just to touch on James I've already said that Christians have to deal with carnality as a guarantee as they growing Christ but also we have to look at who the letter of James was written to it wasn't just the professing church that letter went out to the 12th tribes who were scattered abroad so it was a letter that was being read by the Jews and unconverted law keepers so to speak who were very rebellious and many murderers and what have you, not only that James had the Judaizers under his ministry these were the same ones that went to Paul that Paul was dealing with and Paul also said that the name of God is blasphemed among the gentiles because of them who make their boast in the law but they dishonored God by breaking it these were fleshly counterfeit Christians that had infiltrated the churches, quite clearly Paul taught about that so James was dealing with them we see that in the book of acts, and Peter even shrunk back along with Barnabas and the rest of them and started to teach heresy because of fear of these men so you're dealing with unconverted people in the church who were zealouts.

Of course brother we want our emotions to be induced by this filling of the spirit and a corporate anointing that goes without saying I hope that's why we come together when we do.
But to judge by outward appearance a congregation like Jesus image and to assume that their emotions are not triggered off by filling of the spirit is nothing but assumption, this is a big congregation that's led by spirit-filled leaders, this type thinking is not based upon discernment in the spiritual sense either gifting or maturity it's based upon what someone sees with their eyes and it doesn't line up with their fundamentalist doctrine that tells them in their mind you can't dance around and scream like that it's got to be flesh.That is the religious spirit my brother that does that and I will call it for what it is because I was bound by it and had to be delivered myself.

I'm humbled and I get overjoyed in praise and intercession for Greg because 15 years ago we were very different when it comes to charismatics like that, so pleased to see that Greg is embracing those who many of us rejected.

And because he has done that and softened his heart towards the body of Christ the outpouring of the spirit that is coming will be upon him and others 11 years ago I received a prophecy about sermon index and my own life that the spirit would be poured out on some of us and we would have our prayers answered.

But those that continue to harden their heart towards their brothers in Christ will not receive this outpouring of the spirit that's coming, MY tears flow through the spirit of interception that we would allow our hearts to be softened and prepare the fallow ground for the water that's coming.

Wet season is coming but it will only go down a narrow tributary this season but the richness in the water will feed the trees and the trees will indeed bare fruit and the fruit will be stored in the Lord's barn to feed those who are thirsty in the dry season Ahead ✝️💜🙏

Brothagary.

First, I’m not sure anybody was drawing a Pentecostal/Fundament dichotomy.

Second, James was written to Christians, at least those professing faith.

Third, your admonition about speculation is right on. It works both ways however. You likewise can’t assume it’s of the Spirit just as others can’t assume the opposite. Apply the standard both ways. You are assuming the best. Others you say might assume the worst. You can’t say that brothers who discern error are of unclean spirits. Like you’ve said many times before and I’ll hold you to your own words, one wouldn’t want to slander the bride and you have to be consistent in both directions on that or there is an issue. You are quick to accuse in one direction but fail to see the irony of accusing others of unclean spirit, bad motive or some denominational failings and yet when the cautions go against what you hold dear, there is outcry. I say this in a loving spirit. Maintain consistency and integrity is maintained.

Jeremiah,

A book I would recommend on these things, also a book I believe to be the most important book on Christianity outside of the Bible, is "Yes, I am" by Norman Grubb, or "God Unlimited" by Norman Grubb.

Those 2 books were used of the Lord in not only my sanctification/baptism in the Holy Spirit, but also to teach me what true, apostolic Christianity looks like and is. I was stuck in flesh and soul for countless years in public, itinerant preaching ministry, and when the Father revealed these truths to my spirit, literally everything changed for me. I won't say much more in hopes that you will read them (if you have need of it, let me know and I will send you the book, Yes, I am. It can be tough to find as I think only one small publisher has the rights currently).

Continue to seek the Lord dear brother and don't allow mans opinions to sway you from clear blessings and leadings of the Holy Spirit.

Gary,
What is striking to me is that your usage of terms like cessationism, fundamentalism, etc. is not the common, everyday language you will find among the masses in churches these days. While we quibble about theological exactitude and intricacy, the devil is taking people captive to his selfish, counterfeit and soulish religion by the millions. Man will flock to the thing that most benefits themselves, and the modern religion that preaches only blessing, getting from God, experiencing God, receiving from God, who Jesus is to me, and the numerous other spiritual sounding selfish motives, has to, at some point, be called out.

If the primary focus is what man gets from God, no matter what He is getting, it is a suspect religion. What man gets from God is merely a byproduct of what Jesus deserves from man, and should never be the focal point.

To God be the glory in the church, to the debasement and humbling of all flesh and pride.

Brother discerning error and judging people at two different things. 4Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not [b]puffed up; 5does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, [c]thinks no evil; 6does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

People that set their heart constantly for slandering and judging part of the body of Christ are not using discernment discernment flows out of love for people I never called it that, I called it judgment, suspicion, criticism,.

Brother if you don't believe that people can be bound in a spirit that's attached to religion and legalism I'm not going to convince you otherwise but to say that I've seen pastors who were delivered from these spirits and there is surely demon spirits that are involved in false religion, the apostle Paul talked about Christians receiving the spirit of legalism.

I assume the best because the Bible actually teaches us to do that with our brothers in Christ not to judge them because they have a different diet or they worship in a different way or they're not a part of our little group, love believes in all things love hopes for all things and it doesn't think evil, I was bound myself with it so I experienced the freedom that came with being delivered from a religious spirit that I picked up through years of listening to teachers teaching me to judge others, you don't have to believe that but you can't change that, it's happened and that's part of my testimony I'm sure you have a testimony about some sort of deliverance whether it be drugs at alcohol or whatever.

Now you're saying that I should not judge either way which means to not use any discernment and being some neutral state of neither believing or disbelieving anything that we see or hear, I'm sure you don't practice that and that must be a little sarcasm on your part. My exhortation has always been to love our brothers in Christ and intercede in the spirit weeping for them according to God's grace that's what I do, I wouldn't give that up because someone tells me to be neutral.

And brother can you name one person that I've accused in here,I've spoken general terms and never spoke directly. Brother with all due respect your last statement maintain consistency and integrity is maintained,do you actually practice what you've just told me to or do you in your own words practice discernment, other words for you to be consistent you would have to be doing what you've just told me to do which nobody does in they're right mind. My call or message exhortation whatever you want to call it has always been the same love your brothers in Christ and please for God's mercy don't slander them, pray for them and love them while your still have breath and are able too ,for the precious bride whom our Lord bled for and suffered for and died for, treat her with respect for the bridegrooms sake, because he loves her more then we think 💜✝️👈🙏

For the sake of not ruining a good thread I don't want to disrespect Brothers Greg's choice of sermon, and turn it into another fruitless debate, so I'm signing out god bless everyone 🙏🕎💜

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

Thank you very much ESchaible. I found these books already on Amazon, i can download it there for a few €. But thank you that you ask me to send it to me. Would be a bit expensive to send it to Germany btw :) I found it also as PDF File, but i am not sure if that's legal.

by _Jeremiah_
Thank you guys for the encouragement and also thank you for sharing your opinion.

My thoughts to the tambourine...
Some people say that Music with rhythm, like the modern Worship(rock) today is pagan and we should not practice it. Main argument is that we only find these Rhythm-Music in Heathen-Religions to celebrate religious ceremony's and never been used in church history. And as far as i know this is true. And when we look how the modern music in general in the last century's started(before that time they had no rhythm), it always went along with rebellion against christian values in society. So its not so deliberative that there could be something to it.

But i never thought about the tambourine and for me this instrument can't be played without rhythm. So it's a good argument against this theory.

The tambourine has been around since Biblical times:

Then Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambourines and dancing.’ (Exodus 15:20)

‘And David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the LORD, with songs and lyres and harps and tambourines and castanets and cymbals.’ (2 Samuel 6:5)

‘Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!’ (Psalm 150:5)

There Zadok the priest took the horn of oil from the tent and anointed Solomon. Then they blew the trumpet, and all the people said, "Long live King Solomon!” And all the people went up after him, playing on pipes, and rejoicing with great joy, so that the earth was split by their noise.’ (1 Kings 1:39-40)

Jeremiah,

They will be a blessing to you dear brother.

Money is no option, my Father owns the cattle on a thousand hills, so even though I have almost nothing, everything I need is always provided right when I need it (which would include post to send you a thousand books if He wished). God is faithful to His promises, and as we seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, He will never let us see lack or abundance in this world, but always keep us squarely in His daily provision.

Let me know if you would like to discuss the books, or really anything else, and I can get you my email. These threads have a tendency to go off the rails whenever peoples golden calves are pointed out.

@ESchaible
Thank you! Maybe i really would like to take advantage of your offer. Reading the book will get a bit more difficult for me because English is not my native language and i did not found any German translation. But how can we exchange email addresses? I could not find any option to write you a private message.

Notevanschaible (at) Gmail (dot) com

I'm not to concerned about the brethren on this forum having my contact info, despite our doctrinal differences I am positive each of us would give our lives for each other if circumstances deemed it necessary.