Standing with Israel from a biblical perspective

As I have just come back from Israel
And as a Christian there is so much evidence for the bible we have there
Our saviour did not walk in new York or Paris he walked in Israel and he is coming back to Israel

Zechariah 14:4
4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

99 percent of the bible we read happens there

I do not like the killing of life whether it is in Gaza or in Israel

Jesus is Jewish

When you walk round the museum of Israel and see the baal statues and the armour of Goliath or from a giant
You see a head of what a king would have looked like during the time of a king Israel

Or like me I have dug for artifacts in the foothills of Tiberius and seeing the black stone of the Galilee from the first century and the mustard seed plants and the bird flu over the sea of Galilee

You see mount Hermon where the transfiguration happened or you see in Magda a first century synagogue in which jesus preached from

Psalm 122
1
Psalm 122 A song of ascents. Of David.
1
I rejoiced with those who said to me, "Let us go to the house of the LORD."
2
Our feet are standing in your gates, O Jerusalem.
3
Jerusalem is built like a city that is closely compacted together.
4
That is where the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, to praise the name of the LORD according to the statute given to Israel.
5
There the thrones for judgment stand, the thrones of the house of David.
6
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May those who love you be secure.
7
May there be peace within your walls and security within your citadels."
8
For the sake of my brothers and friends, I will say, "Peace be within you."
9
For the sake of the house of the LORD our God, I will seek your prosperity.

The bible commands us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem

The new covenant was made with Israel which we part of
Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: note

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of

In this passage when it talks about the new covenant it talks that about the ordinances of the things like the stars and how God will keep Israel like the stars

Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, note

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded note

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. note

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? note

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; note

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. note

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: note

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. note

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. note

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. note

Hast God forsaken his people as it says in the beginning of this passage God forbid

The bible says in the last days all of Israel will be saved

My heart breaks at the moment as I know so many people in Israel as my heart breaks for those in Gaza
The thing is the land belongs to Israel as in the bible

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrate

This covenant is confirmed in scripture
The Arabs want the complete destruction of Israel and they don't want it to exist

The Qur'an does not mention Jerusalem , the bible does

There are so many biblical sites in Jerusalem and most of them about 2 feet under because the Roman period dates about 2 feet under
You can go to the garden tomb or the baptism site of jesus or the many thousands of archaeology sites in Israel

I so wish that all the sites where recorded in virtual reality and I had all the archaeologialy records of the sites

As a Christian when I first went to Jerusalem I was in a prayer room and knowing that our saviour is going to land on the mount of olives and go towards the temple mount area

As you pass up towards say mount gilboa down the road you go pass where Gideon defeated his army on the dreaded road 60
That's what I love about Israel as the geography of the place
As you can work out the distance it would have taken Mary to get to Bethlehem

I cry for all my friends in Jerusalem and Israel who are part of the IDF as I have been meeting with them online on a weekly basis
It is so hard to know that your friend is fighting in the parachute regiment
I have worked in the hospital and see people die and I don't want to see my friend Josh die in the IDF and I worked with soldiers when I did the dig in Israel as they are just 18 year olds and just out of school as they have to do 2 to 3 years service straight from school

The bible comes to life when you are dealing with real life
Locations

When you see names in the bible with insciptions such as Hezekiah , Jezebel and others with there names on in the museum

There is so many sites I want to see and I so want to dig in Israel again and I am so longing for my saviour to come back and I know he is Jewish

I don't want my Jewish saviour to be angry with me because I did not love his people and I also didn't love his church aswell those Arabs who are Christians

Hi Dominic,

I will be praying for shalom in Jerusalem

That is awesome how you are there seeing all the bible artifacts in the museum and the buildings. I would love to visit Israel someday.

I believe that all the feasts mentioned in the Bible is a rehearsal of what is to come.

Please be careful there and I will be praying for your safety there as well.
Keep trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ. He will surely come to your rescue.

Shalom to you

I think we all need safety wherever we are in the world from the UK , Canada , Australia

Yes we do thank you
Please pray for us too

"The new covenant was made with Israel which we part of
Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:”

Thanks for posting Dominic!

More Scriptures:

Psalm 122: 6-8 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem:
    "May those who love you be secure.
7 May there be peace within your walls
    and security within your citadels.”
8 For the sake of my family and friends,
    I will say, "Peace be within you.”
9 
Here are some prayers we were sent as suggestions for prayer over Israel:

O Lord God of Israel, You who keep Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps. (Psalm 121:) You promised that with all Your heart and all Your soul, You would bring Israel out of all the nations where You had scattered them and that they would dwell safely in their own Land, never to be uprooted again.(Jeremiah 32:41) 

(Amos 9:15) You said that the nation of Israel would never cease as a nation from before You as long as the ordinances in the sky remain. (Jeremiah 30:36) Remember Your covenant with Israel. Arise O God and let Your enemies be scattered. Let them flee from before You seven ways. 

(Psalm 68:1) But let all who bless Israel be blessed. (Genesis 12:3) Help those who stand in the gap to give You no rest until together, we see Your salvation. (Isaiah 62) We pray for Israel's armies to be strong and courageous. Let their hearts not be afraid. For You, the Lord our God, are the One who fights for Israel against her enemies, in order to save Israel. (Deuteronomy 20:4) 

We pray that no weapon formed against Israel will prosper and every tongue that rises against Israel be condemned. (Isaiah 54:17) We pray for freedom for those in captivity, and comfort for all who mourn in Zion. (Isaiah 61) Save Your people Lord, that the nations might know, there is a God in Israel. Amen.

"The new covenant was made with Israel which we part of
Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:”

Thanks for posting Dominic!

More Scriptures:

Psalm 122: 6-8 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem:
    "May those who love you be secure.
7 May there be peace within your walls
    and security within your citadels.”
8 For the sake of my family and friends,
    I will say, "Peace be within you.”
9 
Here are some prayers we were sent as suggestions for prayer over Israel:

O Lord God of Israel, You who keep Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps. (Psalm 121:) You promised that with all Your heart and all Your soul, You would bring Israel out of all the nations where You had scattered them and that they would dwell safely in their own Land, never to be uprooted again.(Jeremiah 32:41) 

(Amos 9:15) You said that the nation of Israel would never cease as a nation from before You as long as the ordinances in the sky remain. (Jeremiah 30:36) Remember Your covenant with Israel. Arise O God and let Your enemies be scattered. Let them flee from before You seven ways. 

(Psalm 68:1) But let all who bless Israel be blessed. (Genesis 12:3) Help those who stand in the gap to give You no rest until together, we see Your salvation. (Isaiah 62) We pray for Israel's armies to be strong and courageous. Let their hearts not be afraid. For You, the Lord our God, are the One who fights for Israel against her enemies, in order to save Israel. (Deuteronomy 20:4) 

We pray that no weapon formed against Israel will prosper and every tongue that rises against Israel be condemned. (Isaiah 54:17) We pray for freedom for those in captivity, and comfort for all who mourn in Zion. (Isaiah 61) Save Your people Lord, that the nations might know, there is a God in Israel. Amen.

Mike wrote;
"But let all who bless Israel be blessed. (Genesis 12:3)"

Scripture says:
1 Now the Lord said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you.
2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
4 So Abram went,...

The Lord clearly spoke to Abram in those verses.

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (Galatians 3:8,9)
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29

It is all about the Gospel, from the very beginning !
That's where the focus of the church should be.
But we lost it and pay the price.

Help us Lord !

Markus

I’m trying to understand something. Jesus says He’s the true Vine which in the OT are the people of Israel. Jews are called branches as are we in Romans. The true eternal temple is Jesus and we are all precious stones. Is Jesus also true Israel in that He is the "seed” of Abraham. Aren’t Jesus and His people the spiritual Kingdom of God including all children of the promise and not a geographical place. Isn’t the New Jerusalem a people, Jew and Gentile, as one with Him as the. Bride? Jews and Gentiles, who are transferred into His Kingdom through faith ?

I know that the "nation” of Israel as a geographic place plays a central role in end times events. But, isn’t the entire focus of the time of separation of wheat and tares about gathering all of those born in Christ, Jew and Gentile, all part of one body, one tree, one temple, one kingdom, and one church.

It just occurs to me that Jesus is who we and Jews are joined to and end time events are merely a prelude to all of us being together with Jesus our mutual Bridegroom/Husband at last. Much of the discussion seems to be about us joining into the Jews when Scripture seems much more intensely focused on all of us being one joined into Christ. It seems to me that this is a distinction with a huge difference.

It is all about the Gospel, from the very beginning !

Amen, Markus.

The Lord Jesus said: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad” (John 8:56).

Hi Robert,

Jesus says He’s the true Vine which in the OT are the people of Israel.

Where in scripture is it said that in the OT the people of Israel are the TRUE Vine?

Isaiah wrote of a vineyard:

Isaiah 5:1-7 ”“

Let me sing now for my well-beloved
A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard.
My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill.

He dug it all around, removed its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
And He built a tower in the middle of it
And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.

And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.

What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard:
I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed;
I will break down its wall and it will become trampled ground.

I will lay it waste;
It will not be pruned or hoed,
But briars and thorns will come up.
I will also charge the clouds to rain no rain on it.”

For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel
And the men of Judah His delightful plant.
Thus He looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry of distress.

I didn't say Israel was the true vine Jade. I said Jesus was.
Israel was called a choice vine in the OT.

Jade, thanks for that Scripture and good question in your second post

CofG you made good and important points

I can hear what you are saying.
We have end time "events."
Then we finally have "one body, one tree, one temple, one kingdom, and one church." as you call it

The main focus today seem to be on the "events" and the physical nation, that often causes what I would call unfruitful discussions.
I don't think anyone can claim to know exactly how those events will unfold.
By trying to do so we can loose our focus and slow down any efforts to spread the Gospel.

I'm certain however that one day Jesus will be "King of Kings , Lord of Lords" and there will be one Kingdom.
In His Kingdom there will be all true believers from the beginning of time until the last minute.

As believers we should know Romans 8:32
"He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?"
God has already given "His dearest and best for a world of sinners".
That should give us enough comfort that we don't need to worry where exactly we, with all the other believers are going to live in His Kingdom.
I'm absolutely certain that the Lord has already worked this out perfectly and He will not fail and fulfill everything.

Oh come Lord Jesus, come quickly

Markus

Hi Robert,

Markus is right, he said: 'I don't think anyone can claim to know exactly how those events will unfold.'

Thank you for the questions and sharing. It is very edifying.

Jewish believers and Gentile believers are one body of Jesus Christ. Jesus prayed that they will be one. (John 17) the Land belongs to Jesus Christ the King and His followers will be living there.

Maranatha, Come Lord Jesus.

Luk 17:20

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The Kingdom is wherever the King and His People are. Apparently, the Kingdom, the New Jerusalem, and the heavenly home that His people of faith (OT and NT) long for, sacrifice for and suffer for is wherever the King is with His people. The story of Martha and Mary which is well known is not about sitting at Jesus' feet or working in the kitchen. The one necessary thing is to be wherever and in whatever room Jesus is in. That is the Kingdom, the temple, the heavenly home ( or promised land that even the Jews of faith in Hebrews 11) lived for and journeyed for. If the physical locale of Jesus is Israel for 1000 years then that is where we want to be.

I think the point of Scripture is that eternal life is wherever Jesus is which for now is in our hearts and at the right hand of the Father but will one day be face to face.

The point of the post is that any contemplation, concentration or consideration of end times has to be centered in and exclusive to Christ. So much conversation is on a place and on a partially hardened people coming to faith which is certainly very important to the Lord but Jesus must be supreme even in and maybe especially in this.

God's people need end times preaching. Take a look at the words of Jesus, Paul, Jude, Hebrews, John in Revelation and Peter and you will see true end times focus and preaching; preaching to end times needs and focus for God's people when they see the signs. See how much the preaching is on what we have been focusing on.

This (12 glorious minutes) is what it means to stand with Israel in flesh and blood:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3KwDXoq29Q

I didn't say Israel was the true vine Jade. I said Jesus was.
Israel was called a choice vine in the OT.

The complete verse:

Isa. 5:1-2 ”“
My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill.
……
And planted it with the choicest vine.
……
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.

---------

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith (Heb. 12:2).

the Land belongs to Jesus Christ the King and His followers will be living there.

2 Pet. 3:10,13”“
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, AND THE EARTH AND ITS WORKS WILL BE BURNED UP…………But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Matthew 27:37
And they put up over His head the accusation written against Him: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

Our saviour is Jewish

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:26-29.

15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. Galatians 6:15

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[b] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. Romans 9:6.

Christ, in the eternal and transcendent sense is the seed of Abraham....Christ and all those born of God's seed through Him are likewise the descendants of Abraham. This is not replacement theology. The church did not replace the Jewish people of promise. It was always the children of promise and thus there never is any replacement of anything because it was Christ as the seed of Adam and Eve (the seed of promise to those of faith) that would crush Satan and Christ the seed of Abraham ( the seed of promise of those of faith) who was the source of all spiritual blessing to the Jew and the nations and all such are the offspring of Abraham in ultimate and eternal reality. All those born of the seed of Christ through faith in the promised seed (Jew and Gentile, "there is no difference") are created in holiness, righteousness and in His image, one image, one spirit, one body, one temple, one new man through one seed, one root, one foundation and one Lord of all.

Should have added this one:

Romans 2:29 - But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

Why would God take one man (Abraham), make him a great nation that would bless every other nation on earth, make promises to his descendants (specifically about the physical land they occupied), promise and fulfill that the Messiah would come through them, give them the Holy Scriptures, just to discard them after the Messiah had come?

Read Romans 11 very carefully. God is not done with Abraham's physical descendants.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." Romans 11:25-27

There is a distinction made there between the physical Gentiles and the physical Jews. I believe the fullness of the Gentiles is nearing completion. We will soon see a massive revival among the Jews which will overshadow even Pentecost.

Brother,

I don't think God is done with the Jewish people by physical descent in the least precisely because of Romans 11 as you correctly point out. I was pointing out that there is a physical and spiritual Israel and Jew. There is a partial hardening that will be lifted when the fullness of the Gentiles is complete. Some have said it has already begun before the fullness but I can't justify that from the plain wording. Once the fullness is over, then physical Jews by descent will be brought in by the promises to the fathers through repentance and faith in Jesus. That's how I think Romans 9-11 reads plainly.

The point is that there is a spiritual Israel (not all Israel is Israel) and there is a spiritual Jew and in both cases, physical Jew and physical Gentile are one new man in Christ.

Matthew 27:37
And they put up over His head the accusation written against Him: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

Firstly,

Rom. 2:28-29 ”“
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Secondly, Christ’s kingdom is not the earthly land of Palestine.

John 18:36 ”“
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Our saviour is Jewish

There is an infinite difference between our Saviour and the Jewish people. Christ came through the Jewish line according to the flesh BUT He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and for this reason was born the Son of God (Luke 1:34-35). Are the Jewish people born of the Holy Spirit? Are they born the "Son of God”?

The Lord said to the Jews, "Truly, truly, I say to you, BEFORE Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58).

The Lord Jesus is Creator. The Jewish people are His creation.

To bring the Lord Jesus down to the level of His creation is to lose sight of His infinite greatness and power.

Col. 1:16-17 ”“
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities””all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

And just the visible universe, which is estimated to be 93 billion light-years across (and one light-year is about 9 trillion kilometres) and is made up of billions of galaxies, and each galaxy containing billions of stars, is beyond our grasp and comprehension. And the power that holds the universe together is equally unimaginable.

And this is just a small glimpse of Christ’s greatness and power.

Ps.95:6 ”“
Come, let us worship and bow down,
Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.

Just a thought in response to the comments about bringing Jesus down to the level of His creation, and that He isn't Jewish.

Jesus brought Himself down to the level of His creation, that is the humility of God. He made Himself of no reputation and became fully human, just as He is fully God. Jesus was in fact a Jew, king of the Jews as a matter of fact.

When Jesus was on earth, was He a sinner like all of us?

Is Jesus a King of sinners?

And I ask again: Are the Jewish people conceived by the Holy Spirit?

Jesus is the Second Man.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Jesus is not the king of sinners , jesus was not a sinner like the rest of us

As this is basic Christianity

Jesus genology in the beginning states that he is from the line of David and Jewish even going back to Judah

Matthew 1
1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;

4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;

5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;

6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;

8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;

9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;

10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;

11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: note

12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;

14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;

15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;

16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus is from the line of David and Jewish not only from his mother side but he is adopted into Joseph line because God is his father

As jesus was circumcised the eighth day in the temple
Luke 2:21
And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called JESUS, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.

The Jewish people are not conceived by the holy spirit only jesus was concieved by the holy spirit

The thing is if Jesus was a sinner there is no way that jesus could die on the cross for our sins which is the basics of the gospel

If Jesus was not Jewish then there is no way that he could fulfill the old testament prophecies in scripture such as pslam 22 and Isaiah 53

Well if the antisemitism rampant in this thread isn't already revealed, let it be now.

I bow to, and call the king of the Jews my Lord.

Jesus is Lord.

As I've said for years, and have recently taken to saying again here on this message board lately, the issue of Israel will always sift the church. It's high time to take heed to Paul when he exhorted gentile believers not to boast against the natural branches. God does not take the issue of His covenanted people lightly.

//Well if the antisemitism rampant in this thread//

Where? Don’t get hysterical.

Hi BranchinVINE,

Firstly,

Rom. 2:28-29 ”“
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Secondly, Christ’s kingdom is not the earthly land of Palestine.

Remember: Paul -- who wrote this passage in Romans at roughly 58 AD also wrote the 2nd epistle to the Corinthians at roughly the same year. He made a distinction regarding Gentiles and Jews in nearly every epistle -- including Romans and 2 Corinthians. When he was "boasting" in 2 Corinthians 11...

.......

22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I.

23 Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one””I am talking like a madman””with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death.

24 Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; 26 on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; 27 in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. 28 And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches.

29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant?

30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.

2nd Corinthians 11:22-30 (ESV)

.......

Paul reiterates this in Philippians 3:5 when he said:

.......

4 "If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.

7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith”” 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Philippians 3:4-11 (ESV)

.......

There are distinctions between the Jews and the Gentiles even if there is no distinction when it comes to SALVATION -- at least until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (Romans 11:25).

Remember: This covenant between God and Abraham was made ~430 years before the law of Moses. So, for nearly half of a millennium, a covenant existed prior to when the Law of that covenant was (literally) written in stone.

Of what did that covenant consist?

.......

Genesis 15

After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision:

"Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.”

2 But Abram said, "O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, "Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.”

4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him: "This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”

5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be.”

6 AND HE BELIEVED THE LORD, AND HE COUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

7 And he said to him, "I am the Lord who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.”

8 But he said, "O Lord God, how am I to know that I shall possess it?”

9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half. 11 And when birds of prey came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.

12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him.

13 Then the Lord said to Abram, "Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years. 14 But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. 16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces.

18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”

Genesis 15:1-21 (ESV)

.......

This land was a part of this promise. Did the land (a gift) or the calling of the physical Israel end because of the grafting in of Gentiles?

Regarding physical Israel, Paul wrote:

.......

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 "and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.

30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.

32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Romans 11:25-32 (ESV)

.......

Peter reiterates this in Acts chapter 2-4. Remember, the apostles preached repentance and faith in Christ to the Jews first (i.e., physical Israel) until Acts 10-11 (~8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost).

In his message to physical Israel after the healing of a lame man, Peter preached:

.......

11 While he clung to Peter and John, all the people, utterly astounded, ran together to them in the portico called Solomon's.

12 And when Peter saw it he addressed the people: "MEN OF ISRAEL, why do you wonder at this, or why do you stare at us, as though by our own power or piety we have made him walk?

13 The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.

14 But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. 16 And his name””by faith in his name””has made this man strong whom you see and know, and the faith that is through Jesus has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all.

17 "And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled.

19 REPENT THEREFORE, AND TURN BACK, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.

25 YOU ARE THE SONS OF THE PROPHETS AND OF THE COVENANT that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ 26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”

Acts 3:11-26 (ESV)

.......

Even when Jeremiah prophesied of the coming "new covenant," the LORD said that he was making it with "the people of Israel and the people of Judah" (Jeremiah 31:8-9 ESV). Even here, there is physical distinction -- this time between the people of Israel and the people of Judah. This is likely why the Gospel was first preached to Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria (i.e., Northern Kingdom of Israel).

It's my view that God makes no distinction between physical Israel and Gentiles when it comes to salvation. In addition, I believe that the original covenant was based upon PROMISE. The gifts and calling of that promise are irrevocable -- because God is not a liar. That promised LAND is a gift that has not been revoked. Even God's calling to physical Israel has not been revoked -- even if salvation is entirely based upon FAITH in Christ Jesus (because Moses wrote of Christ -- as we read in John 5:39-47).

At the same time, the gifts and calling of God -- to physical Israel -- are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).

Jade thank you for those Scriptures, refreshing to read.

Just adding Eph. 1:
v 19 and the surpassing greatness of His power to us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of His mighty strength,
20 which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms,
21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.…

Our pure and undivided devotion needs to be to Christ, and Him alone !

May He come quickly. !

Markus

Hey Chris-

I have a quick question that I’ve asked before but I don’t think I’ve ever got an answer (I don’t mean from you specifically).

As you know there is a lot of "watering” down of bloodlines such that likely very few "pure” Jewish persons exist. My dad did one of those DNA tests a few years ago and while much is what we expected it did come back with something like 5% Jewish.

So where does one draw the line, percentage wise? Who is "all Israel” racially?

And no, it’s not an anti-Semitic question but rather a practical one.

I dont know the answer to this question

Hi Todd,

As you know there is a lot of "watering” down of bloodlines such that likely very few "pure” Jewish person exist. My dad did one of those DNA tests a few years ago and while much is what we expected it did come back with something like 5% Jewish.

So where does one draw the line, percentage wise? Who is "all Israel” racially?

Genetically speaking, there is some genetic variation from different populations of Jews. After Solomon's fall into sin and idolatry (I Kings 11) and the tearing of the kingdom into two kingdoms (Israel and Judah), the two branches operated essentially independently of one another. Solomon's son, Rehoboam, wanted to wage war against the northern kingdom.

Rehoboam gathered together an army of 180,000 chosen warriors to wage war against the "house of Israel" under Jeroboam son of Nebat. Why? Rehoboam sought to "restore the kingdom" (I Kings 12:21). However, the LORD sent the prophet Shemaiah to Rehoboam. He said, "Thus says the LORD, 'You shall not go up or fight against your relatives the people of Israel. Every man return to his home, for this thing is from me'" (I Kings 12:24 ESV).

Because of Solomon's sin, the kingdom was divided. As we know, Jeroboam son of Nebat was terrible. After he was named Israel's king and after receiving counsel from some bad counselors, he had two golden calves made. He said to the people of Israel, "You have gone up to Jerusalem long enough. Behold your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt" (I Kings 12:28 ESV).

Jeroboam then placed one of the calf idols in Beth-el (where Jacob had his vision of the angels descending up and down from Heaven) and the other in Dan. He built temples for these idols and appointed priests who, obviously, weren't Levites. He commissioned holy festivals for sacrifices to the gods that he made. So, Israel fell headlong into paganism. Thus, as soon as Jeroboam became king, he broke the first two commandments -- and discarded the rest of the covenant Law altogether.

Eventually, Israel needed a capital and Samaria was chosen. So, a subsequent rebellion and king found Omri (the father of Ahab) on the throne. He bought land and founded the city of Samaria (I Kings 16:21-24). As opposed to Jerusalem, Samaria became the capital of pagan Israel -- and the name "Samaria" at times became synonymous with the Northern Kingdom. Interestingly, the name "Samaria" comes from the name of the man who sold this hill to King Omri (I Kings 16:24). His name was "Shemer" (pronounced "Sheoh-mare") and the name "Samaria" is pronounced "Sheoh-mare-own" in Hebrew.

Recently, an archeological dig of an ancient home in Israel found idols as well as references to the Name of YHWH. The researchers pondered if this might make people "completely rethink the idea that Israel was monotheistic. My response to one Stanford professor about this was that the researchers obviously had never read the books of Kings and Chronicles. From the time of its founding and rebellion against the house of David, the northern kingdom of Israel was pagan.

Eventually, because of their idolatry, Israel was conquered and carried off into captivity by the Assyrians. In 2 Kings 17, we read that the king of Assyria resettled the land. He "brought people from Babylon, Cuthah, Avva, Hamath, and Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the people of Israel. And they took possession of Samaria and lived in its cities" (2 Kings 17:24 ESV).

Interestingly, the chapter continues to say that these new people did not fear the LORD. Consequently, the LORD sent lions into the land and they killed some of them. The king of Assyria was told that this happened because he repopulated the land with people who didn't know the law of the god of the land; and, the lions were a judgment because of this. So, the king of Assyria sent one of the exiled priests back to the land of Israel. He lived in Bethel and taught the new residents "how they should fear the Lord" (2 Kings 17:28).

However, the new residents from each of the other nations made gods of their own. The Babylonians made Succoth-benoth, those from Cuth made Nergal, those from Hamath made Ashima, the Avvites made Nibhaz and Tartak and the Sepharvaim even burned their children in the fire to their gods Adrammelech and Anammelech. Yet, that is not all. By the time 2 Kings was written, we read:

.......

32 They also feared the Lord and appointed from among themselves all sorts of people as priests of the high places, who sacrificed for them in the shrines of the high places.

33 So they feared the LORD but ALSO served their own gods, after the manner of the nations from among whom they had been carried away.

34 To this day they do according to the former manner. They do not fear the LORD, and they do not follow the statutes or the rules or the law or the commandment that the LORD commanded the children of Jacob, whom he named Israel.

35 The LORD made a covenant with them and commanded them, "You shall not fear other gods or bow yourselves to them or serve them or sacrifice to them, 36 but you shall fear the LORD, who brought you out of the land of Egypt with great power and with an outstretched arm. You shall bow yourselves to him, and to him you shall sacrifice.

37 And the statutes and the rules and the law and the commandment that he wrote for you, you shall always be careful to do. You shall not fear other gods, 38 and you shall not forget the covenant that I have made with you. You shall not fear other gods, 39 but you shall fear the LORD your God, and he will deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies.”

40 However, they would not listen, but they did according to their former manner.

41 So these nations feared the LORD and ALSO served their carved images. Their children did likewise, and their children's children””as their fathers did, so they do to this day.

2 Kings 17:32-41 (ESV)

.......

So, the people who resettled the northern kingdom tried to serve both God and their idols. This is important because it has an important role later.

Eventually, Judea fell into the sin of idolatry too. Even with righteous kings like Hezekiah and Josiah, you had most of the population straying from faith in the LORD. They served their idols -- eventually even the kind that throw children into fire. So, Judea was carried off into captivity too -- but this time by the Babylonians (who had conquered the Assyrians).

When Nebuchadnezzar's army arrived to Jerusalem, they destroyed the Temple and carried off its remaining treasures to Babylon. He carried off the people to Babylon too. This happened in 587 B.C. So, long after the exodus from Egypt, the people of Israel were once again in bondage.

Later, the Medes-Persians conquered Babylon and seized control of all of the Babylonian territories. In the time that God had foretold regarding the exile, the king of the Medes-Persians allowed a group to return to the Promised Land.

In both Ezra and Nehemiah, we read about the problems with the mixing of the remnant of the people of Israel with foreigners who were relocated there by the Assyrians and Babylonians. Both Nehemiah and Ezra confronted the people about this sin. The last three chapters of Ezra and the last chapter of Nehemiah focus on this. We read Nehemiah's thoughts and words in Nehemiah 13...

.......

23 In those days also I saw the Jews who had married women of Ashdod, Ammon, and Moab. 24 And half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod, and they could not speak the language of Judah, but only the language of each people.

25 And I confronted them and cursed them and beat some of them and pulled out their hair. And I made them take an oath in the name of God, saying, "You shall not give your daughters to their sons, or take their daughters for your sons or for yourselves.

26 Did not Solomon king of Israel sin on account of such women? Among the many nations there was no king like him, and he was beloved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel. Nevertheless, foreign women made even him to sin.

27 Shall we then listen to you and do all this great evil and act treacherously against our God by marrying foreign women?”

28 And one of the sons of Jehoiada, the son of Eliashib the high priest, was the son-in-law of Sanballat the Horonite. Therefore I chased him from me.

29 Remember them, O my God, because they have desecrated the priesthood and the covenant of the priesthood and the Levites.

30 Thus I cleansed them from everything foreign, and I established the duties of the priests and Levites, each in his work; 31 and I provided for the wood offering at appointed times, and for the firstfruits.

Remember me, O my God, for good.

Nehemiah 13:23-31 (ESV)

.......

The foreign people who had repopulated the land had intermarried with many of the people of Israel. Ezra went so far as to call for separation from the Israelites who had married foreigners. Ezra 10 states:

.......

10 And Ezra the priest stood up and said to them, "You have broken faith and married foreign women, and so increased the guilt of Israel. 11 Now then make confession to the Lord, the God of your fathers and do his will. Separate yourselves from the peoples of the land and from the foreign wives.”

12 Then all the assembly answered with a loud voice, "It is so; we must do as you have said. 13 But the people are many, and it is a time of heavy rain; we cannot stand in the open. Nor is this a task for one day or for two, for we have greatly transgressed in this matter. 14 Let our officials stand for the whole assembly. Let all in our cities who have taken foreign wives come at appointed times, and with them the elders and judges of every city, until the fierce wrath of our God over this matter is turned away from us.”

15 Only Jonathan the son of Asahel and Jahzeiah the son of Tikvah opposed this, and Meshullam and Shabbethai the Levite supported them.

16 Then the returned exiles did so. Ezra the priest selected men, heads of fathers' houses, according to their fathers' houses, each of them designated by name. On the first day of the tenth month they sat down to examine the matter; 17 and by the first day of the first month they had come to the end of all the men who had married foreign women.

Ezra 10:10-17 (ESV)

.......

So, this was a HUGE deal. It is part of the Law of Moses. It's also reiterated throughout the Old Testament. It is even echoed in New Testament passages about marriages between believers and unbelievers (such as I Corinthians 7:12).

Yet, in the context of the Old Testament, there was quite a bit of intermarriage that happened between Jews and Gentiles following the Diaspora. In his Antiquity of the Jews chapter 10, Josephus points out that the animosity that Jews in Israel felt about the Samaritans was based upon a few reasons -- including the idea that the Samaritans were descended from Jews who intermarried with foreigners. In particular, Josephus refers to them as the progeny of Israelites who married people from Kutha (or Cuthah) who were also conquered by Babylon (although 2 Kings 17:24 mentions the Cuthah as only one of those nation groups that resettled into Israel).

The Samaritans (mostly) retained the faith but had altered it a bit. The Samaritan scriptures alter somewhat from the Jewish texts -- particularly in regard to the Ten Commandments. In the Samaritan text, it states an additional commandment to offer all sacrifices on Mt. Gerizim. As we know, Mt. Gerizim was the "mountain of blessing" as opposed to Mt. Ebal as the "mountain of cursing" (as mentioned in Deuteronomy and Joshua). When Jesus spoke with the Samaritan woman in John chapter 4, they discussed this very thing!

So, essentially, the Jews of the 1st Century looked down at the Samaritans because they were seen as unscriptural "half-breeds" who had altered the faith by inserting non-scriptural traditions. The irony, of course, is that this is what had happened to many Jews in terms of the traditions handed down by rabbis and included within the Talmud.

Jesus pointed out the problem with those traditions while also showing compassion on the Samaritan woman and other Samaritans. Jesus even spoke the parable about how the "good Samaritan" was the true neighbor of the Jewish victim that he had helped (whereas both a Jewish priest and Levite had ignored him). In context, Jesus was speaking about the second greatest commandment which is to "love your neighbor as yourself" -- pointing out that the Samaritan was a neighbor to the Jew.

This has important implications FOLLOWING the continued diaspora of Jews outside of Israel after the failed Jewish revolts.

Today, there are different communities of Jews found throughout the world. They are often labeled as "Ashkenazi," "Sephardic," "Mizrahim," etc. There are Jews who have historically resided in certain areas where very little or even NO intermarriage is reported. Given the smaller numbers within each community, it makes for a genetic group that is deemed "endogamous." It's kind of common for individuals within such groups to marry distant cousins.

The two groups that are purported to have engaged in the most intermarriage are the Ashkenazi ("German" Jews -- although some lived elsewhere in central Europe) and Sephardic (Jews who moved from Iberian Spain, Portugal and western France back to Israel or elsewhere in the East). Genetically-speaking, there is some variation between the groups.

It is thought that the Ashkenazi are descended from Jews who moved into Europe through southern Europe and/or the Italian peninsula. The genetic variance is typically explained by early intermarriage -- perhaps with Gentile converts to Judaism. Still, the definition of "Jews" in the New Testament tends to speak of a physical Israel -- not one of conversion by sojourners. However, there is a tradition today that tries to define what it means to be Jewish by either religion or the maternal heritage.

Why the intermarriage?

Like I said, it's possible that it was based upon conversion -- European Gentile fathers giving their daughters into marriage to Jews. Still others point to the existence of slavery throughout the Roman Empire -- or rights that weren't quite so universal depending upon citizenship. Others have suggested that it may have come about by the descendants of Jews who had converted to Christ yet had children or grandchildren who went back to their Jewish roots following Roman persecution of either the Jews, the Christians or even both.

Remember that -- despite being Christians -- Priscilla and Aquilla were part of the Jews expelled from Rome by Emperor Claudius (Acts 18:1-14). After the first Jewish revolt, persecution of Jews under Vespasian and Titus was widespread. Later, Sephardic Jews were subjected to some similarly terrible persecutions and inquisitions -- eventually resulting with their relocating to the East.

While modern genetic research indicates a unique genetic heritage for each Jewish community group, they have still shared a decidedly endogamous community within each group. The intermarriage had to have happened earlier rather than later. Even within DNA tests from companies like 23andMe, you find many people who have a conservative estimate of 100% Ashkenazi genetic heritage. The same is true of Sephardic Jews (although the labels for such groupings might differ or haven't been quite so readily labeled).

Some of us do find less colorful identifiers on our genetic maps correlating to mixing. My wife's heritage is quite mixed -- and it includes Sephardic, Ashkenazi, and general "Middle Eastern Jewish" genetic roots. Of course, if you ask my wife, she will most joyfully consider herself a child of God rather than identify with any label. I find the same sense of joy from many Jewish believers who believe in Christ Jesus. Whether Keith Green or Ray Comfort, they find their joy in Christ -- making them a natural branch who was grafted again into the vine.

So, what would make someone be comprised of "physical Israel." Well, that's not something that I can truly answer. I strongly suspect that there are many Jews who have never migrated into areas where intermarriage became a thing. For Ezra and Nehemiah, they were quite adamant about no intermarriage with non-Jews.

Apart from what we find in the Law, there isn't a lot about just "who" would be the physical Israel. It seems quite clear to me -- from both the Old and New Testaments -- that physical Israel (along with Jerusalem and the rest of the Promised Land) plays a crucial role in Biblical prophecy as we race toward the end of all things. Yet, I think that it is fair to say that groups like Nazi Germany or even Hamas would see this somewhat differently than how we would consider it.

Here's a recent and somewhat related video from Ray Comfort that I found quite wonderful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3KwDXoq29Q

That has to be the longest, most informative, well written "I don’t know” I have ever read, well done .

You bring up some interesting points, if I’m following correctly, regarding who the physical Israel might be as found in Romans 11.

Jeremiah 29 (for me) seems to bear heavily on this question,… from beginning to end this busy chapter has implications that bear out far beyond the generation to whom it was written.

Tho having said this,…
My understanding is since this earth will be removed/burnt up and replaced by a new one where there is no need for the sun or moon, for our God will be the light therein, then the physical land of the state of Israel is of less consequence in the context of eternal things as there will be a new Jerusalem ✝️

In my understanding, the Lord commanded all who would follow Him, "seek ye first the kingdom of God and it’s righteousness” and until Jews and Muslims , Israelis and Palestinians humble themselves, repent and seek His face, they cannot partake of His divine nature and both are left to their own devices.

I cannot support Saul while he kills Stephen, but Paul I can fellowship with… "what fellowship hath light with darkness?”
It’s not anti-Semitic to not support Saul, but it would be unchristian not to pray for him 🙏🏻

Hi Fletcher,

That has to be the longest, most informative, well written "I don’t know” I have ever read, well done .

You bring up some interesting points, if I’m following correctly, regarding who the physical Israel might be as found in Romans 11.

Jeremiah 29 (for me) seems to bear heavily on this question,… from beginning to end this busy chapter has implications that bear out far beyond the generation to whom it was written.

Tho having said this,…
My understanding is since this earth will be removed/burnt up and replaced by a new one where there is no need for the sun or moon, for our God will be the light therein, then the physical land of the state of Israel is of less consequence in the context of eternal things as there will be a new Jerusalem ✝️

As I wrote in another thread, I don't want to be like those who make extremely pointed assertions that aren't entirely clear in Scripture due to haste or zeal. There is always a temptation to do this -- and I've made efforts to avoid this.

While we can all debate eschatology, I can't quite fathom what will happen AFTER we get to the end of what we read in Revelation (that point which you mention). After all, the things that will be part of the new heavens, the new earth and the New Jerusalem are something of a mystery for all of us on this side of this "glass darkly" living in our physical bodies.

In the study of physics and cosmology, scientists often refer to the laws of physics as pertaining to the "known universe." For certain reasons, most of them tend to embrace the idea of a "Big Bang." When asked what the physical universe consisted of BEFORE the "Big Bang," most will shrug their shoulders. They'll readily admit that such questions deal with the "unknown universe" -- which is beyond their field of study.

As a fellow believer, I tend to agree that we must focus on what is important NOW rather than THEN. What is important now is seeking and knowing Christ Jesus and introducing the good news to a world that desperately needs to hear it.

In my understanding, the Lord commanded all who would follow Him, "seek ye first the kingdom of God and it’s righteousness” and until Jews and Muslims , Israelis and Palestinians humble themselves, repent and seek His face, they cannot partake of His divine nature and both are left to their own devices.

I cannot support Saul while he kills Stephen, but Paul I can fellowship with… "what fellowship hath light with darkness?”
It’s not anti-Semitic to not support Saul, but it would be unchristian not to pray for him 🙏🏻

Spiritual Israel: We are believers in Jesus Christ. It is the ONLY name under heaven by which anyone can be saved.

Physical Israel: Jews are the sons of the covenant that the LORD made with Abraham. The gifts and calling of that covenant are irrevocable. Jesus and the apostles brought the gospel to physical Israel first. Even now, there are many Jews who have believed in Jesus and accepted him as the Messiah.

Gentiles: This includes EVERYONE ELSE -- including people of every nation, tribe, tongue and religion.

The only way to be saved is through faith. To be a part of spiritual Israel, one must repent and believe in Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter if you're physical Israel or a Gentile (including Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, etc.). There is NO OTHER NAME under heaven by which anyone can be saved other than the name of JESUS.

If physical Israel believes in Jesus, they are a part of the assembly/congregation of living God -- the "Israel of God." The same is true for any other person of any background who turns to God. They too become a part of this great multitude of believers.

That said: I believe that the gifts and calling of God to physical Israel are irrevocable. It wasn't revoked when Israel was in bondage in Egypt. It wasn't revoked when the northern kingdom became unfaithful to God, became idolaters and moved their capital to Samaria. It wasn't revoked when the Assyrians carried away the northern kingdom. It wasn't revoked when the people of Judah strayed from YHWH. It wasn't revoked when the Babylonians breached the walls of Jerusalem and looted and destroyed the Temple. It is my belief that it wasn't revoked when the Second Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. either.

By his sacrificial death, Jesus brought a better, new covenant to all -- first to the Jews and then the Gentiles. Yet, the gifts and promises to physical Israel were not revoked. In fact, I'm convinced from Scripture that physical Israel and the Promised Land are vital in Bible prophecy. And, I am convinced that all physical Israel will be saved in one day.

As for not fellowshipping with Saul: I wouldn't necessarily "fellowship" in a spiritual sense. However, I would do my best to reach out to him and show him Jesus. This was akin to how the apostles tended to go to the synagogues -- often referring to other Jews as "brothers" or "brothers and fathers" (as when Stephen spoke to the Sanhedrin in Acts 7 or how Paul addressed those in the synagogue in Acts 13). OR, I suppose, it would be how Jesus ate and drank with "tax collectors and other sinners."

//And, I am convinced that all physical Israel will be saved in one day. //

How? Are you suggesting that at the Second Coming it will be too late for gentiles but not physical Israel?

Your writings are yours, be they long or longer, either case it’s your choice and is not bothersome in the least :)

Another aspect of physical Israel in regards to the end times is the Masons …. do you have any knowledge or experience with them ?

Heard that they are closely related to/involved in physical Israel’s plight to regional supremacy and the third temple being rebuilt, but it’s hard to to get clarification on such things, perhaps you could help :)

Christopher

That promised LAND is a gift that has not been revoked.

Paul did not preach that in Rom. 11.

He said:

Romans 11:15 ”“
For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?

This was what Paul preached about the promise made to the fathers:

Acts 13:32-33,38-39 ”“
And we preach to you THE GOOD NEWS OF THE PROMISE MADE TO THE FATHERS, that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son; today I have begotten You.’ As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’…………Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Hey Chris-

/I have a quick question that I’ve asked before but I don’t think I’ve ever got an answer (I don’t mean from you specifically).

As you know there is a lot of "watering” down of bloodlines such that likely very few "pure” Jewish persons exist. My dad did one of those DNA tests a few years ago and while much is what we expected it did come back with something like 5% Jewish.

So where does one draw the line, percentage wise? Who is "all Israel” racially?

And no, it’s not an anti-Semitic question but rather a practical one./

I passed your intriguuing question around to a few friends. Here is one answer:

I know what I’d answer about a history of shared experience that requires some percentage of actual DNA blood lineage, but is also necessarily an identity based on something more than than racial, yet also necessarily racial.

It’s about being under a unique covenant that has set a particular people apart, "not to be reckoned among the nations” (Num 28:8). God miraculously preserved that identity against all odds through the most inauspicious of circumstances conceivable.

That covenant has marked the Jew, not only with racial and religious distinction; it has marked them with covenant wrath but also irrevocable covenant predestination to glorious inheritance and rule.

A primary part of the divine purpose in all of this depends on preserving a special visibility of identity in order to make the public demonstration that will vindicate the everlasting covenant as a tangible, observable spectacle that will instruct men and angels, confounding every tongue that has ever raised itself to question, "hath God really said?”

"For God is ABLE to graft them in.”

But what knowledge of that would there be if not accomplished openly in real space time history on this earth?

Besides, never, in all of Israel’s history, was the elect bloodline of either the ultimate son of David, or many taken up in the stream of suffering and persecution that has always followed Jewish experience and identity been completely pure and unmixed with gentile parentage.

Yet never did this mixture disqualify the Jewish nation as a whole from being the distinguishable object of God’s covenant dealings.

When I hear people debate who and where are the "real” Jews, I always answer, "follow the trail of blood!” Follow the judgments of the covenant that far exceed what is common among the nations, and never so sustained as a relentless pattern across the centuries.

Even in Abraham’s time, servants in the house were required to take the covenant sign and invited into the commonwealth by receiving, not only the external sign of circumcision but living faith in the living God of Israel, which is to say, the God who chooses and sets apart. (END)

Below is another answer from a believing Jew whose grandfather perished in Auschwitz:

Note: In no way is this an in depth response to the question but might give you some idea as to who is defined as a Jew comparing Scripture with the Nazi Germany definition. I only use Nazi Germany for the sake of perspective as the Scriptural definition and pattern is all that matters. If we're going to define being a Jew by percentages, 5% won't come anywhere close to being a physical Jew. You can make a Scriptural case for 50%. The one thing for certain is that the qualifying latitudes per Scripture weren't nearly as broad as some think or would like to think.

Notice: Not even King David was 100% Jewish as defined by bloodlines as Rahab was his great great grandmother and Ruth his great grandmother. This also means that not even Jesus had 100% Jewish bloodlines. Nevertheless, we can see that even biblically, the parameters for being considered a physical Jew were quite strict. You can make the argument that although Timothy's father was a Greek, his mother and grandmothers were Jewesses. As a result, it was sufficient for him to be looked upon as a Jew. The record doesn't go any further back than that but the fact that both his mother and grandmother were Jewesses may imply that they were of Jewish ancestry.

Abraham fathered Isaac, Isaac fathered Jacob, and Jacob fathered Judah and his brothers. Judah fathered Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez fathered Hezron, and Hezron fathered Ram. Ram fathered Amminadab, Amminadab fathered Nahshon, and Nahshon fathered Salmon. Salmon fathered Boaz by Rahab, Boaz fathered Obed by Ruth, and Obed fathered Jesse. Jesse fathered David the king.

David fathered Solomon by her who had been the wife of Uriah. Solomon fathered Rehoboam, Rehoboam fathered Abijah, and Abijah fathered Asa. Asa fathered Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat fathered Joram, and Joram fathered Uzziah. Uzziah fathered Jotham, Jotham fathered Ahaz, and Ahaz fathered Hezekiah. Hezekiah fathered Manasseh, Manasseh fathered Amon, and Amon fathered Josiah. Josiah fathered Jeconiah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.

After the deportation to Babylon: Jeconiah fathered Shealtiel, and Shealtiel fathered Zerubbabel. Zerubbabel fathered Abihud, Abihud fathered Eliakim, and Eliakim fathered Azor. Azor fathered Zadok, Zadok fathered Achim, and Achim fathered Eliud. Eliud fathered Eleazar, Eleazar fathered Matthan, and Matthan fathered Jacob. Jacob fathered Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.

Notice: The Nazi Germany definition of a Jew was even more liberal than that implied by the biblical Jewish lineage.

German officials identified Jews residing in Germany through the normal records created by a modern state. They used census records, tax returns, synagogue membership lists, parish records (for converted Jews), routine but mandatory police registration forms, the questioning of relatives, and from information provided by neighbors and municipal officials.

In territory occupied by Nazi Germany or its Axis partners, Jews were identified largely through Jewish community membership lists, individual identity papers, captured census documents and police records, and local intelligence networks. Germany's racial laws identified a "Jew” as anyone with three or more Jewish grandparents, regardless of their religious identity or practice. Conversions to Christianity were pronounced illegitimate going back two generations, formalizing and instituting Nazi racial theories.

Personal note: I took a test from Ancestry DNA a few years ago just to check their credibility. Five days later I received the results and they nailed me. All they had was my name (not typically Jewish) and my address. That's all! It came back as 98% Ashkenazi Jewish and even accurately revealed where my family originally came from. It was both fascinating and disconcerting at the same time. And about once a year I receive updated results as their database continues to expand making the results even more accurate. With this sophisticated DNA testing and its continual advances, it may be said of Jews, "They can run but they can't hide," aside from Divine intervention. (END)

Hi Markus,

Our pure and undivided devotion needs to be to Christ, and Him alone !

Amen.

"Jesus is all, and He is mine.”

This is the greatest treasure of all.

Phil. 3:8 ”“
…………I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

Docs-

Thanks that was very interesting.

Your first friend’s response indicating the "predestination” of ethnic Israel for salvation at the end makes this particularly interesting because, if true, God will be doing "DNA tests” and will have to draw the line somewhere.

Perhaps a side note, but does any of this have any application to non believing Jews who have already died in their sins? I would think not but wasn’t sure what some folks might think about that.

Hi Todd,

How?

"How do you know?" Not to sound cliché, but because the Bible plainly says so. It uses the words "all Israel will be saved" while Paul is referring to PHYSICAL Israel.

The prophecies found throughout the Old Testament refer to things that I suspect that believers in the 1st Century were expecting to transpire. They expected a Messiah would come and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7). They expected the Messiah to rule from Jerusalem and break Israel's adversary's with an iron scepter (Psalm 2:6-9). He would be an ultimate "judge" of Israel, slay the wicked and establish peace on the earth (Isaiah 11:1-16). He will make Zion the paramount focus of the entire world (Isaiah 2:2-4). He will shepherd his people in the land of Israel (Ezekiel 34:11-31).

I find these promises of a Messiah throughout the Old Testament. Jesus came in a humble manner -- born of a virgin and laid in a manger rather than a bed. Those Jews who understood the Messiah only via Scripture pertaining to the SECOND COMING were likely confused. The idea that the Messiah would die as a sacrifice -- an ultimate Passover Lamb -- was outside their interpretation of Scripture.

"How will this happen?"

I think that I touched on this in a previous post in a different thread. I'm not entirely sure HOW all of Israel will be saved in one day. The Bible doesn't seem to clearly state how this will be accomplished in specific detail. It just says that it will happen. I don't want to declare HOW it will be happen when it would merely be my own opinion or guess based upon Scripture.

Of course, this is not to say that I don't have ideas about how it can be accomplished. Even in the context of Romans 11, we have a few clues:

.......

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 "and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

Romans 11:25-27 (ESV)

.......

Verse 12 is the passage pertaining to all of Israel being saved. It includes the words "in this way." The question, obviously, is: "What way?" or, as you asked, "How?"

The context of "in this way" can refer to either Paul's passage before it, the Old Testament passage behind it or both.

Koine Greek is interesting because the writings likely did not include breaks in the clause. I've looked for ancient text sources that I could view to simply see how it was worded/copied. The earliest texts that I could find online were Papyrus 46 (dated between ~150 to 399 A.D.). I don't see any breaks.

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/i/image/image-idx?c=apis;q1=6238;rgn1=apis_inv;size=50;start=1;type=boolean;view=thumbnail

If it pertains to Paul's statement before it (which is my view given the use of this Greek clause "in this way," "and so" or "thus" found elsewhere in the New Testament), it seems to imply that all Israel will be saved after the full measure of Gentiles has "come in" (literally "eiserchomai" or "entered") in verse 25. The Scriptural references that Paul then uses are passages from Isaiah 27, Isaiah 59 and Jeremiah 31.

The alternative is to consider that "in this way" refers to the subsequent passages (i.e., Isaiah 27, Isaiah 59 and Jeremiah 31). This is how the King James Version sort of renders this. It reads:

.......

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Romans 11:25-27 (KJV)

.......

This is a contrast to the ESV which indicates the phrase referring to the previous clauses. The NIV, NASB and others seem to be in the middle on this -- meaning that it can refer to the prior statement, the subsequent statement (i.e., Old Testament quoted passage) or both.

.......

25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery””so that you will not be wise in your own estimation””that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 "This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Romans 11:25-27 (NASB)

---

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

Romans 11:25-27 (NIV)

.......

If it refers to the subsequent passages from the Old Testament, then the answer would be in those passages. However, I don't see an "in this way" found in those passages -- at least clearly in how that "way" would initially come about.

I'm more inclined that the clause refers to what Paul had just written which is substantiated by the Old Testament passages that he quotes. With this in mind, my thought is that physical Israel will be saved once the "fullness" (Greek word is "plērōma" usually translated as "full" or "fullness" and derived from "plēroō" meaning "full" or "completion") of Gentiles has come in.

If this is the proper context, then the question is then: "When will the fulness of Gentiles come in?"

Are you suggesting that at the Second Coming it will be too late for gentiles but not physical Israel?

My view? I don't know.

Hi Chris and Todd,

This is a wonderful topic and I have learned so much through you. Also, I have been reading Genesis and now I'm on Exodus and God has been teaching me a lot about this subject.

The 'All of Israel will be saved', could it be all 12 tribes of Israel will be saved?

I would like to write more but gotta go.

Thank you

Yulboum-

I did a quick scan of some of the commentaries and several do say that "all” does not necessarily mean all as in every last individual but could reference a great majority and someone even said as you suggested that all mean members from each tribe will be represented.

Chris-

Thanks for the response. I meant to ask where you get the idea that the "all Israel will be saved” must happen in one day. You have probably mentioned it somewhere I just can’t remember.

Hi Jade,

That promised LAND is a gift that has not been revoked.

Paul did not preach that in Rom. 11.

He said:

Romans 11:15 ”“
For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?

The previous part of Romans 11 -- earlier in the chapter -- was focused entirely upon how the rejection of Jesus the Messiah by most of physical Israel served as a stumbling block to which they stumbled. However, the verse you quoted points out that they didn't stumble to the point of a "fall" or "fail" (or, as the NIV puts it, "fall beyond recovery"). Rather, verse 15 points that they can be accepted back -- like "life from the dead."

The verses that I quoted from later in Romans 11 (verses 25-32) stating, "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (verse 29).

What "gifts" (rendered as plural) and "calling" are being pointed out here?

This passage is often quoted by some regarding "salvation" in general. However, in this context, it's referring to physical Israel (as proofed by the passages before and after it regarding the Israel that is disobedience and experienced a partial "hardening").

I would argue that these "gifts and calling" include those original of the covenant given to Abraham -- including "election" (verse 28).

.......

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as REGARDS ELECTION, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Romans 11:28-29 (ESV)

.......

So, in reference to what I was saying about the "gifts," I would ask which "gifts" are being referenced here?

In I Peter chapter 1, Peter -- the apostle to the Jews -- writes his epistle to "those who are elect EXILES of the Dispersion" (I Peter 1:1 ESV). He reiterates this in I Peter 2:11-12 calling the recipients of his epistle "sojourners and EXILES" before encouraging them to "Keep your conduct among the GENTILES honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation" (I Peter 2:12).

Peter is making a distinction here. He is writing to physical Israel -- Jews -- who have believed in Christ Jesus (and become spiritual Israel). Their distinction, of course, is through faith in Christ Jesus (which is the essence of chapter 1-2).

The key word I want to focus on is EXILE. If these are exiles (or "exiles of the dispersion"), then where are these believers exiles from?

Peter points out where they live (i.e., "Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia"). However, they are sojourners there in exile from...the Promised Land.

These members of physical Israel who believed in Jesus as Messiah are referred to by Peter as "exiles" and "exiles of the dispersion." This dispersion is from the Promised Land.

I would argue that this is one of the "gifts" for which physical Israel was beloved on account of the Patriarchs. It's why the conflict in the Middle East continues.

Even if one were to believe that there is "no distinction" when it comes to salvation, there is a distinction when it comes to the gifts and calling that are irrevocable. This land was not promised to the Palestinians, Arabs or others. They have no true claim from God to that land. It was to the descendants of Israel -- by the promise of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The squabbles of secular governments is secondary to the knowledge that this land was gifted by a promise. Despite their efforts, Palestinians have no claim to it. This land plays a crucial part of Biblical prophecy too -- including parts of prophecy before, during and after our Lord returns.

In Romans 11, it says "all Israel will be saved” in reference to the promises of God to His people. On the exact same subject matter and issue in the same letter and in virtually the same breath, preceding the "all Israel will be saved”, the Spirit defines "all Israel” and says "Now it is not as though
the word of God has failed (as to Israel ), because not all who are descended from Israel are Israel”. The definition of "all” is not dependent on figuring out whether "all” means every single person. It is, by even the most basic of hermeneutical principles, dependent on the context of and words in the passage itself. Verse plucking is how we always go awry as it provides an errant opportunity to fill in our own presuppositions. I and every other brethren would love it and rejoice if every single Israelite got saved. It’s just that Roman’s 9 through 11 are one narrative from the Lord as to His plan for Israel and you can’t pull out verses individually and supply our own definitions. Thus God defines "Israel” in Romans 9, which very explicitly isn’t all physical Israel, and then concludes in Romans 11 that all "Israel” will be saved. Romans 9 defines Israel and Romans 11 explains when they’re being grafted back in.

To say otherwise, one would have to overcome a very simple argument that Paul makes in Romans 9 which begins with his defining who exactly God’s OT promises are for as to the apparent rejection of Israel by the "hardening” and then his explanation of when those promises will finally be realized.

The promises may not be revocable, but are they conditional?

PS- Robert, thanks for that post. I agree with you.

You wrote,”The promises may not be revocable, but are they conditional?”

Yes.
"If”,… is the condition found throughout scripture-

my understanding also aligns with Roberts post.

Hi Christopher,

Firstly, how do you explain Acts 13:32-33,38-39?

Acts 13:32-33,38-39 ”“
And we preach to you THE GOOD NEWS OF THE PROMISE MADE TO THE FATHERS, that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son; today I have begotten You.’ As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’…………Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Secondly, the Jews had Paul arrested because of the hope of Israel.

Acts 28:20 ”“
For this reason, therefore, I requested to see you and to speak with you, for I am wearing this chain for the sake of the hope of Israel.”

So obviously the hope of Israel that Paul preached was different from the Jewish hope for Israel.

The only hope of Israel that Paul preached was the hope of the Gospel.

Is the restoration of the earthly land of Palestine to the Jewish people the hope of Judaism?

Note:

I am not interested in Middle East politics.

If it is the hope and teaching of Judaism that the land of Palestine would be restored to the Jewish people, then the Jewish people can certainly claim their right to the land based on their religion. This is not my concern or interest.

I am only interested in Christian truths.

And the only hope of Israel that I find Paul preaching in the Bible is the hope of the Gospel.

This is what Paul preached:

Acts 28:30-31 ”“
And he stayed two full years in his own rented quarters and was welcoming all who came to him, PREACHING THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND TEACHING CONCERNING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST with all openness, unhindered.

Acts 20:21 ”“
solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:50 ”“
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God……

Rom 14:17 ”“
for the kingdom of God is………righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

The hope of all men is Jesus.

God has made covenantal promises to the people of Israel, does God withhold those promises, 2 of which are salvation through Jesus and the restoration of the kingdom of God, in this context, physical Zion, to them in the millennial kingdom? If He does revoke them, than God is a liar, and I would hope none of us believes this.

It's becomes plain our views of God are in fact the foundation of error or truth.

It's strange that the views being expressed here are not seen as antisemitic, no matter the mask they wear or piety they claim.

The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom.

Flesh and blood cannot the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50).

And Jesus said to Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, that unless one is born of the water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Instead of making accusations of "antisemitism", the question to ask is: Have some Christians been Judaized?

What would Paul have said?

Why were the Jews against the teachings of Paul?

Was Paul antisemitic?

//It's strange that the views being expressed here are not seen as antisemitic, no matter the mask they wear or piety they claim.//

You are grossly slandering brothers and sisters because they do not see things exactly as you do.

Can’t you control yourself from making such baseless comments?

//It's strange that the views being expressed here are not seen as antisemitic, no matter the mask they wear or piety they claim.//

How do you know?
The adverasy accuses
Please don't do what he does
God bless you richly and I mean it.

Here are a few videos that might give some of you a better understanding of the real situation

Noam Chomsky - Antisemitism vs. Anti-Zionism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsEzZdR69vg

Israeli Journalist Amira Hass
How Can the World Stand By and Witness Israel's Slaughter in Gaza?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fBSxmliPck

Palestinian Christians under Israeli occupation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYWCpOHiNjk

Does anyone still believe that "God will bless those who bless Israel" (aka Zionism) ?
I'm grieved about the situation we have now and how much Scripture is being twisted and misinterpreted.

Markus

Does anyone still believe that "God will bless those who bless Israel" (aka Zionism) ?
I'm grieved about the situation we have now and how much Scripture is being twisted and misinterpreted.

Dear brother Markus. This thread, along with some of the other recent ones on this topic, have served to greatly educate me on Zionism, and the evils therein. It has also been eye opening to hear Jews who are against the nation-state, with sincere desires to honor God in righteousness.

Yet I want to be cautious to never lump any one person or group into a camp, as if I am anyone’s judge. The Lord knows each heart!

I’m grateful to be learning more about it, but like you, my heart aches and my spirit grieves more than ever as a result.

What I am lamenting most at the moment is how weak my prayer life has become of late. I’m emotionally exhausted, almost numb.

Yet sincere intercession seems so crucial as the way forward.

Lord, help!🙏

May we be strengthened to use our most powerful weapon in these times!🙏

You're actually correct regarding my comment concerning antisemitism. Now that I think about it, my wording was not precise enough as Palestinians are also a semitic people.

The views being expressed here are anti Jew, not antisemitic.

I am baffled at how the spiritualization of God's promises concerning a physical renewal of His kingdom degrades so entirely scriptural truth from Genesis to Revelation, and completely castrates Paul's epistle to the gentile Romans.

Again it's proven that the issue of Israel sifts the church.

May God help us.

Hi Markus,

Here are a few videos that might give some of you a better understanding of the real situation

....

Does anyone still believe that "God will bless those who bless Israel" (aka Zionism) ?
I'm grieved about the situation we have now and how much Scripture is being twisted and misinterpreted.

Politically-speaking, Chomsky (an extremely left-wing socialist) isn't exactly speaking from a Biblical perspective. He is an advocate of Marxist philosophies -- even pointing out that religious faith (and evangelical faith in particular) is "dangerous" because it stands opposed to his views on (and goals for) collective humanism.

As for the videos about Gaza (one from the left-wing "Democracy Now" organization and the other from a state-run Turkish TV outlet): They aren't exactly unbiased representations of the current conflict between (secular) Israel and the Palestinians (let alone Hamas). There are plenty of unbiased videos about the current conflict that are arguably much more accurate in both their presentation and analyses.

However, my brother, I am somewhat troubled that you seemingly suggest that those of us who don't necessarily agree with your view on this matter are guilty of either twisting and misinterpreting Scripture. At best, your comment seems to suggest that we are so undiscerning as to be unaware when Scripture is being "twisted and misinterpreted." I'm not sure that this is a position that you should stake so decisively -- especially since you don't really know any one of us on a personal level.

I'm quite confident that we are all seeking the Lord on this -- particularly through the study of His Word. While error is certainly a problem when it comes to such matters, I think that our Shepherd is able to guide us back to truth if we stray from it -- and lead us to what is most important.

Before this goes off the rails unnecessarily…

Perhaps if you were to offer your precise definition, that would help to clarify what might very well be a misunderstanding/miscommunication?

With that particular phrase being tossed around so flippantly throughout the world, it will surely have different definitions based on cultural/experiential dispositions. Unfortunately due to the careless use of the term it would inevitably lose some veracity over time if this misuse doesn’t cease.

Edit to add;
"anti-semitism” is the term, regarding the request for your definition in an effort to provide clarity as this particular phrase has varying connotations, often evoking an emotionally charged expression.
So that those to whom this was directed, as this is not the first time, can understand what you are hoping to point out to their edification 😇

The fact remains that there is a sure and big difference between the Christianity Paul preached and Judaism, and a huge and undeniable difference between Paul's interpretation of OT prophecies and the interpretation of OT prophecies according to Judaism.

Was Paul "anti-Jew"?

It is not an emotional and totally unwarranted "anti-Jew" accusation but an objective response to this matter and an adherence to the teachings of Paul that is required.

I also ask ESchaible:

Why was Paul arrested by the Jews "for the sake of the hope of Israel" (Acts 28:20). What was the Jewish hope? What was the hope Paul preached that got him into trouble?

Hi Eschaible,

I understand that there are people here that are learning and there are people with their beliefs that are totally different. And I couldn't say that they are antisemitic.
I now know that you were not saying that to me but to others and misunderstood you. Hope you were not offended.

However, I realize that the world is becoming antisemitic, actually, they are becoming more antichrist and we the believers of Christ Jesus need to pray for one another and help each other in the faith. If they don't understand, we need to explain with great patience and love.

Hi Jade,

Yea Judaism today, teaches from the Talmud and not from the Torah. It seems to me that the Talmud is like the Commentaries that they follow. Almost like the Commentaries that alot of the the Christians follow instead of reading the Scriptures. If the people read the Torah, they would see Jesus Christ. For example, in Genesis, "Let there be Light" is showing Jesus Christ and the Tree of Life in the the Garden is pointing to Jesus Christ.
Yea there is a huge difference between what Judaism teaches and what Paul teaches.

God Almighty appeared to Abraham,
'Then the Lord said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. But I will judge the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will depart with many possessions. You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a ripe old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
Genesis 15:13”­-”¬16 BSB

God kept His Word and delivered Israel from Egypt. Throughout the Scriptures, God's eyes were on Israel and always is. They were scattered and now they are back in the Land where God promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and this was according to the prophecies that was uttered by the prophets of God. God is always looking out for Israel and this is a blessing to the Gentiles. Seeing how they wondered away and how God is patiently waiting for them to return, shows how gracious and loving God is towards everyone( Jews and Gentiles). In this moment, we are seeing many Jews believing in Jesus Christ and this number is growing. I hope this helps you realize that God is watching out for the nation of Israel and He has been faithful to us (Jew and Gentiles believers of Jesus) and never letting go. He is not slow in keeping His promise and His loving kindness endures forever.

God bless you

I also ask you this question:

Why was Paul arrested by the Jews "for the sake of the hope of Israel" (Acts 28:20). What was the Jewish hope? What was the hope Paul preached that got him into trouble?

Please do not go round the bush but give a direct answer.

BranchinVine,

I can't find liberty to answer your question, only to say it smacks of the Pharisees asking questions to trick Jesus.

ESchaible

This is an absolutely serious question that deserves an answer.

I am sorry to say this but for all the humility that you preach you do come across as arrogant.

Hi Jade,

Why was Paul arrested by the Jews "for the sake of the hope of Israel" (Acts 28:20). What was the Jewish hope? What was the hope Paul preached that got him into trouble?

Paul who was once known as Saul, went around to persecute the followers of Jesus Christ because he was a Pharasee which is the strictest sect of Judaism and he was from the tribe of Benjamin, circumcised on the eighth day. On his way to persecute more followers of the Way, Saul met Jesus Christ the risen Lord. He saw a bright Light. Paul witnessed the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ who was crucified for our sins and this is what he testifies and this is his hope and the hope of the Jews.

God is faithful and just.

Seeing this current situation in the world, we are closer to the Day of Jesus Christ.

Peace

//I can't find liberty to answer your question, only to say it smacks of the Pharisees asking questions to trick Jesus.//

Except the Pharisees asked stupid questions.

Some final thoughts
I posted the 3 video clips because of the messages. Nobody found anything wrong with them.
Therefore there is no point to discuss the messengers.
Of course we always have to test all things and no one is completely unbiased, but they added a bit of balance and new information.
No one seems to care about the human suffering in all this. Shame on us!
The ongoing conflict causes hell on earth for all sides and Christians have been supporting it, at least indirectly.
No one doubts that God will fulfill all his promisses.
Does it require so many wars if God is giving a promised gift, or has this conflict another agenda ?

One of the twisted Scripture we always hear is that God will bless those who bless Israel, and pointing to Gen.12v3
I have quoted the complete 3 verses which are not difficult to understand.
Plus I added Gal 3,8,9,29 to get a complete picture.

Here is another interesting clip from a Jew:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSEtuckDbpk
Please pay special attention from about 4:15 onwards.

What does the future hold.
This might quite possibly lead to WW3.
That's why I'm obviously a bit nervous and wrote a few posts.

In many parts of the world there is already hell on earth, Ukraine, Afghanistan etc.
Make no mistakes, it will eventually come to all of us.
Covid and lockdowns were only the beginning.
I might write a bit more about this in another thread

Jade, thank you for those Scriptures and your patience, to give us more insight.

ES, sometimes I pray for you, may the Lord open your eyes and give you understanding.

I think that's it from me

Always please remember this, to seek pure and undivided devotion to Christ.
He is our only hope.

Markus

Hi Markus,

I didn't get around to look at the video clips you posted.
Another thread with those clips might be a good idea.

Yea the world is going crazy and it is quite scary. But fear not, let's trust in Jesus Christ because He is our refuge and strength. Even though there is an uproar in the world, Jesus Christ is your peace.

I grieves me to the core to read all these antisemitic and anti-zionist posts.

This is not just a matter of theology but of a revelation of Christ.

Fact is Jesus will come back to rule in Zion.

Israel is still Jacob struggling on its way, but they will become Israel.

Theirs is the land, the fathers, the promises the covenants, the gospel come to us from them.

They suffered huge casualities in all these battles so that we can learn from their good and bad examples.

We the are the street kids that Yeshua invited into his house because the natural children would not come. He bathed us and cleaned us up and served us propper food.

Because of their ignorance, the covenant is extended to us.
God does not have a covenant with the church, we became the beneficiaries of his covenant with Israel enjoying full rights of native children.

The land is given to the Jews, they have the rights, and even duty to inhabit and protect it. Satan knows that and tries to thwart God's plan by contesting the legitimacy of Israel, Jerusalem and Mount Zion.

The promises of God are irrevocable.

Ps 137
4 How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.

I suggest you check out this book by the late David Pawson
"Defending Christian Zionism", who I consider to be one of the best teachers of the late last century.

He wrote it in response to Church of England's Reverend (?) Stephen Sizers blatant Anti-Zionism. He went so far as to attend an anti-zionist event in Iran. In an exectional move by the COE Stephen Sizer was barred from ministry until 2030 by the COE.

Defending Christian Zionism
\t
Zionism is a comparatively recent word, coined to describe the return of the Jews to the land of their ancestors and the re-establishment of the nation-state of Israel, with Jerusalem (Zion) as their capital.

A Zionist is one who takes part in this or supports those who do. There are Jewish Zionists and Christian Zionists. There are also Jewish anti-Zionists and Christian anti-Zionists. This book is written with the last mentioned group in mind.

Has God brought the Jewish people back to Palestine?
How can both Jews and Christians be God’s chosen people?
How many covenants are there in the Bible?
Do all Christian Zionists accept dispensational teaching?
Does the God of Israel ever change His promises?
These are some of the questions that must be faced in the light of current attacks on Christian Zionism by some evangelical writers. David Pawson believes that Christians need very clear biblical understanding before making political pronouncements about conflict in the Middle East.

https://www.davidpawson.org/books/defending-christian-zionism/

Folks, this is serious stuff, my country was destroyed because of our killing of the Jews. Be careful where you stand in this matter, it will lay bare where you stand with God.

All nations that will come against Israel are doomed.

//antisemitic //

Apparently you mean anti-Jewish.

All a bunch of poppycock and foolish accusations.

Hi Markus,

Some final thoughts
I posted the 3 video clips because of the messages. Nobody found anything wrong with them.
Therefore there is no point to discuss the messengers.

To be clear: That isn’t exactly what President Trump said. What he said was:

.......

"It was 70 years ago that the United States, under President Truman, recognized the State of Israel. Ever since then, Israel has made its capital in the city of Jerusalem ”” the capital the Jewish people established in ancient times. Today, Jerusalem is the seat of the modern Israeli government. It is the home of the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, as well as the Israeli Supreme Court. It is the location of the official residence of the Prime Minister and the President. It is the headquarters of many government ministries.

For decades, visiting American presidents, secretaries of state, and military leaders have met their Israeli counterparts in Jerusalem, as I did on my trip to Israel earlier this year.

Jerusalem is not just the heart of three great religions, but it is now also the heart of one of the most successful democracies in the world. Over the past seven decades, the Israeli people have built a country where Jews, Muslims, and Christians, and people of all faiths are free to live and worship according to their conscience and according to their beliefs.

Jerusalem is today, and must remain, a place where Jews pray at the Western Wall, where Christians walk the Stations of the Cross, and where Muslims worship at Al-Aqsa Mosque.

However, through all of these years, presidents representing the United States have declined to officially recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. In fact, we have declined to acknowledge any Israeli capital at all.
But today, we finally acknowledge the obvious: that Jerusalem is Israel’s capital. This is nothing more, or less, than a recognition of reality. It is also the right thing to do. It’s something that has to be done.”

https://il.usembassy.gov/statement-by-president-trump-on-jerusalem/

.......

Trump ”“ a secular president ”“ made these remarks regarding why the United States was now recognizing JERUSALEM as the secular capital of secular Israel (rather than Tel Aviv as demanded by the Palestinians and other Muslims). In the concept of "democracy” within this statement, he was referring to the freedoms within the secular nation.

Previous administrations felt pressure from the Islamic nations ”“ most which are Islamic theocracies or Islamic monarchies rather than democracies or real republics ”“ regarding recognition of Jerusalem as the capital. This was despite the fact that it was the seat of government for the nation. Palestinians largely oppose this ”“ because they believe that they have claim not only of Jerusalem but of ALL of the land of Israel. From the beginning, they never accepted any sort of "two-state solution” ”“ even when they were gifted the majority of the land (leaving Israel with a minority). And, of course, this is despite the fact that there never was an autonomous nation of "Palestine” either.

After the Palestinians waged war on Israel (because the Palestinians refused a two-state solution), they settled into their role as "minorities” within the state and majorities within regional territories (like Gaza). Suddenly, they were VERY concerned with the rights of minorities.

There is a quote from an unknown source (sometimes attributed to Winston Churchill) that says, "When Muslims are in the minority they are very concerned with minority rights, when they are in the majority there are no minority rights.”

While the actual source of this quote is unknown, the essence of it is quite true. The neighboring Islamic nations don’t guarantee the rights of the minority ”“ whether they were Jews, Christians or anything else. The theocracies and even Islamic monarchies rule with the blistering whip of Islam. So, in this sense, Israel is the only viable democracy in the region.

Of course we always have to test all things and no one is completely unbiased, but they added a bit of balance and new information.

No one seems to care about the human suffering in all this. Shame on us!
The ongoing conflict causes hell on earth for all sides and Christians have been supporting it, at least indirectly.
No one doubts that God will fulfill all his promisses.
Does it require so many wars if God is giving a promised gift, or has this conflict another agenda ?

One Palestinian believer that I know (living in the United States) asked me to pray that Palestinians will turn to Christ Jesus. He argued that if Israel converted to Christ, the nation would relatively remain the same apart from issues pertaining to religious observance. It would still be a secular nation with its borders. However, he argued that if Palestinians converted to Christ, the conflict would end because the conflict is ultimately rooted in Islam and how Islam views both the land and the Jews. The same, he argued, was true of the entire Islamic world.

In Romans 11, Paul speaks of himself as an apostle to the Gentiles (again, a distinction) and even bolstering his ministry hoping to provoke "my own people” (i.e., physical Israel) with jealousy (or envy) in the goal of saving some of them.

In a way, there is a sense of both hatred and envy among Muslims regarding the Jews. This goes back long before 1948 and the modern establishment of the secular state of Israel. Even during World War 2, many Muslims either sympathized with the Nazis or actually joined their cause (especially when the Nazis marched into Africa, Crimea, the Caucasus and the Balkins).

At the same time when Hitler was attempting to exterminate the Jews in all Nazi-occupied lands, he ordered the Nazis to rebuild mosques, madrasas and prayer halls for Muslims in those same lands. Hitler passed the "Law for the Protection of Animals of 1933” in the effort to eliminate any sort of Jewish sacrifice; yet, he ordered the Nazis to bypass that law when it came to Muslims in those same lands.

Amin al-Husseini was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem between 1921 and 1948. He harbored a deep-seeded hatred of the Jews. He also declared the United Kingdom (overseeing the region) to be the enemy of the Palestinians. During his time as Grand Mufti, he directed the narrative of propaganda against the Jews. He threw his support behind Hitler and the Nazis ”“ even meeting with him in 1941.

The Grand Mufti’s motivation was to prevent ANY Jews from living in or moving to the region. He agreed with the "Final Solution” because the annihilation of the Jews would help accomplish this goal. And, yes, this propaganda made its way into the Palestinian schools and religious institutions. He encouraged Muslims to support and fight alongside Hitler’s and Mussolini’s troops.

Oddly enough, just in case the Axis powers lost, the Mufti attempted to subtly tiptoe around these views when speaking with other nations. However, after the war, the Mufti went into exile and the full extent of his brand of extremism ”“ including calls for violence and terrorism against civilians ”“ became clear. By this time, his relations with France was as sour as it was with the U.K.

It was the Grand Mufti who helped establish the "All-Palestine Protectorate” in Gaza after the Palestinians lost the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem became its first president. Al-Husseini chose to call it "All-Palestine” because the name itself was in opposition to King Abdallah of Jordan’s acceptance of a two-state solution. The Grand Mufti-turned president of the "All-Palestine Protectorate” rejected any idea of self-rule or democracy within any section of the land that he wanted to belong ENTIRELY to Palestinian Muslims.

Whereas the Israelis were willing to accept a two-state solution, al-Husseini and his followers were not. They were willing to fight to the death in their efforts to completely eradicate Jews from the entire region. Despite being a protectorate of Egypt, both Egypt and Jordan had enough of al-Husseini’s calls for violence, terrorism and war. The "All-Palestine Protectorate” was dissolved and Egypt began its military occupation of Gaza as the "United Arab Republic” until Egypt and the other opposing Muslim nations were defeated by the Israelis in the Six Day War in 1967.

Historically, Christians have offered assistance to ANYONE and EVERYONE involved in the various conflicts. This is because the ultimate goal is spiritual ”“ the salvation of people ”“ rather than physical. Even if a person might have underlying views (in this life) regarding the conflict, the ultimate emphasis is on the salvation of anyone who would believe in Christ Jesus.

This is akin to believers in the United States who might offer spiritual and physical support for individuals who enter the United States illegally. Ranchers might put out water or even set up shelters and aid stations to help "illegal immigrants” who have crossed the border into the United States. While they might oppose illegal immigration, they can still care for the physical and spiritual well-being of the immigrant who enters this nation illegally. They might support tougher border policies while weeping over the souls of those who flood into this nation.

One of the twisted Scripture we always hear is that God will bless those who bless Israel, and pointing to Gen.12v3
I have quoted the complete 3 verses which are not difficult to understand.
Plus I added Gal 3,8,9,29 to get a complete picture.

Here is another interesting clip from a Jew:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSEtuckDbpk
Please pay special attention from about 4:15 onwards.

In fact, you could easily watch a video published this week by another Jewish man, Ben Shapiro, about the history of the conflict (and the myths regarding it).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pefEIwoTEnE

If we are going to consider any videos like these (both the ones you posted and this one by Mr. Shapiro), we should research the sources ”“ firsthand sources whenever possible ”“ and determine which claims are factual and which claims are not. Often, videos can contain both truths and lies. As I Thessalonians 5:21 reminds us, we should "test everything” and only "hold on to the good.”

What does the future hold.
This might quite possibly lead to WW3.
That's why I'm obviously a bit nervous and wrote a few posts.

In many parts of the world there is already hell on earth, Ukraine, Afghanistan etc.
Make no mistakes, it will eventually come to all of us.
Covid and lockdowns were only the beginning.
I might write a bit more about this in another thread

….

Always please remember this, to seek pure and undivided devotion to Christ.
He is our only hope.

Be encouraged, brother (and all of the brethren). We should pray for ALL people involved in this conflict. We should pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6). True peace that is eternal can only come from believing in and knowing Christ Jesus our Lord.

I am also praying for you, Brother Markus. I hope that my words don't come across as too sharp or hurtful. I’m encouraged by your care for all people -- including the Palestinians -- and your desire to seek the truth in such matters. I do think that we all have a way to go before we see beyond this "glass darkly.” Until then, we can only seek the face of the One who made all things. He is our peace.

.......

EDIT - P.S. - I don't really watch many videos by Ben Shapiro. In fact, the video link that I posted was a YouTube recommended video after I finished watching the last YouTube video from the link that you posted.

//n a way, there is a sense of both hatred and envy among Muslims regarding the Jews. //

Interestingly, this makes me think what Paul’s approach to Islam would have been, had it been a thing in his day. Perhaps he would have expected the Church to provoke them to jealousy as well?

I am not sure what everyone on here thinks God thinks about Muslims. One thing is clear”” He does not hate them.

‘But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and take possession of the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.' "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. Daniel 7

Mat 27:52

Also the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

The holy ones of God in the OT and NT are called the holy ones, the set apart ones and the saints and the called out ones.

If every Jewish person in the OT is a saint or holy one of God then every single Jewish person in the OT inherits the forever Kingdom. Scripture says every holy one will inherit the Kingdom. I imagine that almost every person on the forum who has read the OT knows that not every single Jewish person will inherit the eternal Kingdom but only those who seek righteousness by faith.

Just read the OT and search for the word "saint" or "holy one" of God depending on your translation. Matthew at least, who was taught by Jesus, called the OT Jewish persons who were raised from the dead at Jesus' resurrection a "saint" which is the same word in Greek applied to the church.

If we could agree that the NT born again saint is the same saint that is applied to the holy ones of God in the OT or saints in the more precise translations, then this argument should be over by any reasonable understanding of Scripture.

Just look it up. In any event, Daniel makes clear that the eternal kingdom is for the holy ones of God in his prophesy of the coming Messiah. He is looking forward to the "saints" and either you conclude by Daniel's prophesy that the saints are only the future holy ones of God in the NT age or you conclude that the saints are the saints of the OT and the New.

The only other argument that one can make from the Scriptures is that every single Jewish person who ever lived is a holy one of God who will all, as in every single one, inherit the eternal Kingdom. If you can reach that conclusion, then fine, you can't be persuaded that only the children of the promise, the true spiritual descendants of Abraham by faith (before circumcision) will inherit the eternal kingdom.

Psa 16:3

As for the saints who are on the earth,
They are the majestic ones; all my delight is in them.

Thank you for that,
It takes work to break new ground 🙏🏻

I’m probably gonna get in trouble for this one but,…
Since the 800 pink gorilla in the room has bern addressed, tho I thought Chris might mention it in his writings, Israel as she currently exists was the creation of the Balfour Agreement well before WWII or 1948,… it was 1917 if I remember correctly. In any case the Jewish population around the world weren’t so inclined to move to this newly formed society. While some did, it wasn’t the rush they’d hoped for, so we got WWII which created the conditions necessary to facilitate mass migration of people. Interestingly the majority of the population that was relocated were from western Ukraine, who were politically aligned with nazi Germany 🤔

It’s not that Chris is wrong in his presentation of the recent history of the region, it’s an accurate reflection from the historical perspective… however the story starts decades earlier and as such there’s more to it,… allot more that dramatically changes the story 🤷🏽”â™‚️
These too are widely accepted historical facts tho are rarely mentioned when these discussions occur.

I stumbled across this last night while researching the subject and he gets pretty fired up when he starts talking about Jesus and the.Church but this is a different perspective from a longer timeline-

https://gab.com/JewsaretheProblem/posts/111265018685880310

This is not an endorsement of the account that posted it, nor any of the comments or writings, I’m posting this so that we can have more information regarding the context of the situation that could very well lead to WWIII.
I’m saying this, I have found the situation to be very similar to how it is described in this interview.

Hi Todd,

Interestingly, this makes me think what Paul’s approach to Islam would have been, had it been a thing in his day. Perhaps he would have expected the Church to provoke them to jealousy as well?

I believe that Esau was pointing out that not everyone who descended from Abraham was a recipient of the promise. Remember: Abram was an old man without a child of his own. Yet, God made a promise to Abram that he would be the father of many nations -- even changing his name to reflect this.
Abraham (i.e., "father of many" or "father of a multitude") believed the promise of God in Genesis 15 (and the subsequent chapters).

Abraham begat Isaac. God called Isaac Abraham's ONLY son (Genesis 22:2, 12) -- despite the fact that Abraham previously had a son (Ishmael) by Hagar. Isaac had TWO sons -- Esau and Jacob. Yet, Esau wasn't counted among this chosen people.

Why?

In the epistle to the Hebrews (another distinction of physical Israel), the writer states:

.......

"See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no 'root of bitterness' springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 THAT NO ONE IS SEXUALLY IMMORAL OR UNHOLY LIKE ESAU, WHO SOLD HIS BIRTHRIGHT FOR A SINGLE MEAL."

Hebrews 12:15-16 (ESV)

.......

Esau was unholy and immoral -- and he sold his birthright for a single meal.

Isaac still blessed Esau; however, Esau wasn't counted among the firstborn line of Abraham and Isaac. Whereas Jacob turned to God and developed a faith of his own in Him, Esau was considered "unholy." Jacob went back to his own people to find a wife (well, "wives" due to his father-in-law's deception). Esau, on the other hand, married a Canaanite woman.

In fact, Esau's descendants included Edom -- an enemy of Israel. Edom's actions toward Israel were detestable (as illustrated in Numbers 20:14-21). Much later, Obadiah very harshly prophesied of Edom's destruction.

Another descendant of Esau was Amalek (Genesis 26:12) -- from where we get the Amalekites. They attacked Israel early on (Exodus 17:8-16). Consequently, God said that he would "utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven" (Exodus 17:14 ESV). It was also the people that God sent King Saul on a mission against them, saying: "Go, devote to destruction the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed" (I Samuel 15:18 ESV).

There are groups of people today who attribute their lineage to Abraham -- including a large subgroup of Arabs.

Now, there is a difference between Muslims and "Arabs." The word "Muslim" has a religious undertone coming from Arabic describing "one who submits" (that is, submits to Islam). Consequently, I suppose that Paul would address Arabs and other tribal groups as he would all other groups. I suspect that Paul would recognize the pagan idolatry and deception of the Islamic religion -- especially with the lies it tells about both the Jews and Christians.

Now, we do know that Paul went to Arabia almost immediately after his conversion to Christ (Galatians 1:17). He then returned to Damascus and, three years later, met Peter and James (the brother of Jesus).

Nothing is said about what Paul did in Arabia. This was hundreds of years before the beginning of the Islamic religion. We don't have any record in Acts or Galatians what Paul did while in pre-Islam Arabia; however, it doesn't mention him preaching to anyone there (after all, the ministry focus of the apostles at the time was entirely upon physical Israel).

We do read that, after meeting Peter and James, Paul went to Syria and Cilicia and preached. This is because Paul wrote, "And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. They only were hearing it said, 'He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy'” (Galatians 1:22-23 ESV). We have no record of Paul preaching anywhere before that.

This is, of course, conjecture and a "what if." However, I agree that Paul would not have hated Muslims. He would have told them the truth. I'm not sure he would have "provoked them to jealousy" in the same way as physical Israel -- because those outside of physical Israel were never recipients of the Old Covenant's "gifts and calling of God" (Romans 11:29).

//11 ¶ I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.//

Do you believe this is a statement of fact or a statement of hope?

Some folks seem to think it’s a statement of prophecy, i.e. that some day (last days) the church will finally provoke the Jewish people to jealousy.

I don’t read it that way so I am wondering why others do.

Hi Fletcher,

Since the 800 pink gorilla in the room has bern addressed, tho I thought Chris might mention it in his writings, Israel as she currently exists was the creation of the Balfour Agreement well before WWII or 1948,… it was 1917 if I remember correctly. In any case the Jewish population around the world weren’t so inclined to move to this newly formed society. While some did, it wasn’t the rush they’d hoped for, so we got WWII which created the conditions necessary to facilitate mass migration of people. Interestingly the majority of the population that was relocated were from western Ukraine, who were politically aligned with nazi Germany 🤔

It’s not that Chris is wrong in his presentation of the recent history of the region, it’s an accurate reflection from the historical perspective… however the story starts decades earlier and as such there’s more to it,… allot more that dramatically changes the story 🤷🏽”â™‚️
These too are widely accepted historical facts tho are rarely mentioned when these discussions occur.

I'm certainly aware of the Balfour Declaration and what it meant. However, I wouldn't quite say that the Balfour Declaration was the "creation" of the modern (secular) state of Israel. That was the British formal acknowledgement of something that had been something that many were thinking of for many decades BEFORE 1917.

The 3rd Viscount Palmerston were supporting the Jews who lived in that region at the time. This was during the deeply colonial era of the "British Empire" -- when many parts of the world were territories under their control. By 1840, separatists had seized control of important parts of the region. The Jews living in the region were often mistreated and showed more willingness to communicate with British and other Europeans.

That attempt to support a Jewish homeland of "Israel" in 1840 came to nothing. However, the same is true 77 years later when the Balfour declaration was made. It was, after all, merely a statement of support in 1917 during World War 1 -- when the Islamic Ottomans had joined the Germans and were fighting against the allied powers (including the British, French, Dutch, Greeks and Americans). After all, this Jewish state would likely be allied with the west as opposed to the Ottomans and certain other Islamic groups who were trying to grow their regional power.

Eventually, most of the Allies -- including the Americans -- consented to the Balfour Declaration's statement seeking a Jewish homeland in the region of ancient Israel. There was NO NATION there at the time (before or after). Rather, that area was a territory of different powers dating back to the Assyrian captivity of the Northern Kingdom.

Even at the time of Christ and the apostles, the land was distinctly Jewish (i.e., physical Israel) despite the Europeans (i.e., Romans) having military and governing control of the land. Don't forget that many Europeans and parts of Eurasia supported it because of anti-Semitic reasons. they simply didn't want the Jews as distinct nomads sojourning in their land.

I think that it would be somewhat inaccurate to say that the modern state of Israel exists because it was "a creation of the Balfour agreement." While that marked the first time in which Britain made a formal statement of support for a "national home" for the Jewish people (and one within its ancient territory where no nation autonomously existed for over 2000 years). It was also the first time that other powers in Europe and America largely agreed with that proposal.

However, it was not a binding document. It was a declaration of support for a Jewish homeland. Moreover, it didn't include a map or methodology for the creation of that state. Thus, that proposal never happened in its basic, "declared" form. It took another WORLD WAR with the Nazi's attempting to commit actual GENOCIDE against the Jews for the world powers to ultimately agree upon the creation of a modern state of Israel.

Hi Todd,

//11 ¶ I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.//

Do you believe this is a statement of fact or a statement of hope?

Some folks seem to think it’s a statement of prophecy, i.e. that some day (last days) the church will finally provoke the Jewish people to jealousy.

I don’t read it that way so I am wondering why others do.

You've previously asked about when that would happen. I've tried to make it clear that I don't know with absolute certainty. However, I do suspect that this is referring to the Lord's return.

Consider Zechariah 12...

.......

Zechariah 12

12 The oracle of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

2 "Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah. 3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who lift it will surely hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will gather against it.

4 On that day, declares the Lord, I will strike every horse with panic, and its rider with madness. But for the sake of the house of Judah I will keep my eyes open, when I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 Then the clans of Judah shall say to themselves, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem have strength through the Lord of hosts, their God.’

6 "On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a blazing pot in the midst of wood, like a flaming torch among sheaves. And they shall devour to the right and to the left all the surrounding peoples, while Jerusalem shall again be inhabited in its place, in Jerusalem.

7 "And the Lord will give salvation to the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not surpass that of Judah.

8 On that day the Lord will protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them on that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the angel of the Lord, going before them. 9 And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, WHEN THEY LOOK ON ME, ON HIM WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED, THEY SHALL MOURN FOR HIM, AS ONE MOURNS FOR AN ONLY CHILD, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

11 On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be AS GREAT AS THE MOURNING FOR HADAD-RIMMON IN THE PLAIN OF MEGIDDO.

12 The land shall mourn, each family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 and all the families that are left, each by itself, and their wives by themselves.

Zechariah 12:1-14 (ESV)

.......

I must point out the contrition and belief of Israel in Zechariah 12:10. I believe that this is speaking explicitly of PHYSICAL ISRAEL-- because it was the Jews who pierced our Lord. Now, they are able to look upon him and mourn for him (perhaps meaning that they mourn for what they did to him). In fact, this is echoed in the Revelation of Jesus Christ written by John (including Revelation chapter 1):

.......

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Revelation 1:7 (ESV)

.......

I also feel that I should point out the inclusion of the setting -- Meggido/Armageddon -- in Zechariah 12:11. There is a lot of question about the identity of "Hadad-Rimmon" weeping in this passage. I will point out that "Hadad" was a son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:12-15).

"Rimmon" was an ancient Syrian deity. When Elisha interacted with Naaman the leper, Naaman mentioned this god in particular. Naaman had offered to compensate Elisha. However, Elisha refused. Naaman then told Elisha:

........

17 If not, please let there be given to your servant two mule loads OF EARTH, for from now on your servant will not offer burnt offering or sacrifice to any god but the LORD.

18 In this matter may the LORD pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, leaning on my arm, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon your servant in this matter.”

19 He said to him, "Go in peace.”

2 Kings 5:17-19 (ESV)

.......

So, newly-cleansed Naaman asked to be pardoned for being forced to stand with his master within the house of a false god of the Syrians, Rimmon. However, it isn't know if "Rimmon" is the name of the god or a word depicting the image of the god Baal (as the Syrians worshipped Baal).

It's interesting to note that "Baal" is an Old Testament spelling variant of the first part of "Beelzebub" or "Beelzebul" (literally "lord of flies") referring to Satan (as in Mark 3:22-23).

.......

22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and "by the prince of demons he casts out the demons.”

23 And he called them to him and said to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan?

Mark 3:22-23 (ESV)

.......

Elisha told him, "yālaḵ šālôm" ("depart in peace") -- which echoes what righteous and devout Simeon said when he blessed God after seeing Jesus in Luke 2:29.

I also find it interesting that Naaman requested to take two mule loads of dirt from Israel with him. There isn't really an explanation behind this found in the text. We only read that Naaman wanted to take it with him and stated that "for from now on your servant will not offer burnt offering or sacrifice to any god but the LORD" (2 Kings 5:17 ESV). It is certainly interesting to conject as to why this dirt from the Promised Land was important enough for Naaman to ask the prophet Elisha if he could take it with him to Syria.

I do think that the prophecy of Zechariah 12 has bearing on the Lord's return to the Promised Land and, possibly, the time when "all Israel will be saved."

Hi,

Here are some prophecies regarding the land of Israel.

”­Ezekiel”¬ ”­37:1”­-”¬14”¬ ”­BSB”¬
[1] The hand of the Lord was upon me, and He brought me out by His Spirit and set me down in the middle of the valley, and it was full of bones. [2] He led me all around among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, and indeed, they were very dry. [3] Then He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones come to life?” "O Lord GOD,” I replied, "only You know.” [4] And He said to me, "Prophesy concerning these bones and tell them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! [5] This is what the Lord GOD says to these bones: I will cause breath to enter you, and you will come to life. [6] I will attach tendons to you and make flesh grow upon you and cover you with skin. I will put breath within you so that you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’” [7] So I prophesied as I had been commanded. And as I prophesied, there was suddenly a noise, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to bone. [8] As I looked on, tendons appeared on them, flesh grew, and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. [9] Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and tell the breath that this is what the Lord GOD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, so that they may live!” [10] So I prophesied as He had commanded me, and the breath entered them, and they came to life and stood on their feet””a vast army. [11] Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Look, they are saying, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope has perished; we are cut off.’ [12] Therefore prophesy and tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘O My people, I will open your graves and bring you up from them, and I will bring you back to the land of Israel. [13] Then you, My people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. [14] I will put My Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken, and I will do it, declares the Lord.’”

”­Hosea”¬ ”­6:1”­-”¬3”¬ ”­BSB”¬
[1] Come, let us return to the Lord. For He has torn us to pieces, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bind up our wounds. [2] After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His presence. [3] So let us know”” let us press on to know the Lord. As surely as the sun rises, He will appear; He will come to us like the rain, like the spring showers that water the earth.

In AD 70, Israel was desolate like dry bones and now God Almighty brought them back to their land in 1948.
A day is like a thousand years for the LORD.
And God revived Israel after 2 days.
I'm not familiar with the Jewish Calendar but seeing how a nation that once was desolate is brought back within 2 thousand years is amazing and I believe God is not finished with Israel and the 'church' does not replace them.
There are more prophecies that confirm.

We will soon see King Jesus, the Son of David coming down from heaven, riding on the cloud. Let us be prepared by loving one another and strengthening each other in the faith. God is always looking out for the poor and needy, the widows, the orphans, and the aliens. He is our shelter in times of trouble.

You wrote ,” It took another WORLD WAR with the Nazi's attempting to commit actual GENOCIDE against the Jews for the world powers to ultimately agree upon the creation of a modern state of Israel.”

Yes that’s kind of the point tho we come to different conclusions….
(For me) what you call secular Israel that was "created” out of the Balfour agreement, in that it was the first established, agreed upon "plan” as you say tho I’m not going to take you to task over your choice of words in an attempt to deflect from the meat of the matter, which is -there is little to no relation between the secular ethnocentric military state presently called Israel and the biblical people of God, except of course in name. The people that moved into the region following WWII were not the same people as biblical Israel, genetically or culturally and definitely not spiritually. These are easy to source facts. the people of Israel owe their existence to the Lord Jesus and until they repent and serve Him, they will perish 🤷🏽”â™‚️
Having said this, we can stand with Israel and still disagree with their policies/actions or even particular administrations, tho that in no way suggests we don’t love and want the best for them.
Edit to add; tho we do love them and want the best for them, that doesn’t we hold their coats while they commit GENOCIDE in Palestine and just remain silent because we fear a media apparatus that 96% of which around the world is controlled by people calling themselves Jews ✝️
My Bible says if I’m obeying Jesus they will hate me -

But in case you missed it from earlier, … (you didn’t respond)
Do you have any experience or knowledge of the Masons and their involvement in Israel ?

Hey Chris:

I said:

//11 ¶ I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.//

Do you believe this is a statement of fact or a statement of hope?

Some folks seem to think it’s a statement of prophecy, i.e. that some day (last days) the church will finally provoke the Jewish people to jealousy.

I don’t read it that way so I am wondering why others do.
””””””””””””””””””””””””
You said: "I'm not sure if you've addressed this question or statement to me. Even if it was, I don't understand what you mean. I don't see this as any sort of "last days prophecy." ///

The reason I ask is that several folks here think the the Church’s treatment of Jews fleeing from "end times” persecution is what will provoke them to jealousy and finally bring about their conversion. In other words, they seem to view Paul’s statement as having some far future fulfillment, as opposed to immediate fulfillment in his day, and in succeeding generations to the present.

I was just curious about your take on that aspect.

TMK said:
"The reason I ask is that several folks here think the the Church’s treatment of Jews fleeing from "end times” persecution is what will provoke them to jealousy"

Not exactly. The church walking in resurrection power and demonstrating the wisdom of God and His glory is what will provoke them to jealousy (a jealousy aimed at the unequivocal demonstration that their God is with the community of Jesus, which is a purpose of the church both now and future); which is the reason, after Paul extols the wisdom and knowledge of God in His plans concerning Israel and the church, exhorts the gentile believers to present themselves a living sacrifice to God.

Hi Fletcher,

The people that moved into the region following WWII were not the same people as biblical Israel, genetically or culturally and definitely not spiritually. These are easy to source facts.

I'm not sure what the extent of your research is regarding this. However, I would urge individuals to be wary of some of the claims that I've read that are more deeply rooted in conspiracy or well-presented pretenses regarding groups such as Ashkenazi Jews. I've read some claims about the Ashkenazi "origins" that are simply untrue and quite easily debunked.

the people of Israel owe their existence to the Lord Jesus and until they repent and serve Him, they will perish 🤷🏽”â™‚️

The distinction between Jews and Gentiles has no bearing on salvation -- despite the fact that a distinction still exists. I suppose that Paul understood and pointed out the distinction more than anyone in the New Testament -- and the joy that, through Christ Jesus, Gentiles are grafted into this vine. To the Gentiles, Paul wrote...

.......

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands -- 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, ALIENATED FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL and STRANGERS TO THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, having no hope and without God in the world.

13 But NOW IN CHRIST JESUS you who once were far off have been brought near BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and MIGHT RECONCILE US BOTH TO GOD in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but YOU ARE FELLOW CITIZENS with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:11-22 (ESV)

.......

The distinction is even point out that physical Israel can more readily be grafted BACK INTO the vine (if they do not continue in unbelief) because they are "natural branches" (Romans 11:17-24).

Having said this, we can stand with Israel and still disagree with their policies/actions or even particular administrations, tho that in no way suggests we don’t love and want the best for them.
Edit to add; tho we do love them and want the best for them, that doesn’t we hold their coats while they commit GENOCIDE in Palestine and just remain silent because we fear a media apparatus that 96% of which around the world is controlled by people calling themselves Jews ✝️

Yes, we can disagree with Jews on matters of faith and the secular nation of Israel when it comes to policies. However, I do STRONGLY DISAGREE with the claim that the nation of Israel is attempting to "commit genocide" in Palestine. Don't take this the wrong way, but this sounds like the conspiracy-driven narrative pushed by the Palestinians and other Muslims (and often embraced by some of the most ardent evangelists of "replacement theology").

To be clear: A military response to an attack is not "genocide." Rather, "genocide" is the goal or attempt to wipe out a group from existence. Genocide is the violent, physical extermination of a group. It's what the Nazis attempted with their "Final Solution" (which was agreed upon by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and many others).

It's also in the very rhetoric of Hamas, Hezbollah and other Muslim terrorist and governing groups -- desiring the annihilation of physical Israel -- both the Jews and the commonwealth state of Israel. It's arguably one of the things we find sought for by the nations just before the Lord's return to the Promised Land described in the Book of Revelation -- culminating at Armageddon.

But in case you missed it from earlier, … (you didn’t respond)
Do you have any experience or knowledge of the Masons and their involvement in Israel ?

Hi Todd,

The reason I ask is that several folks here think the the Church’s treatment of Jews fleeing from "end times” persecution is what will provoke them to jealousy and finally bring about their conversion. In other words, they seem to view Paul’s statement as having some far future fulfillment, as opposed to immediate fulfillment in his day, and in succeeding generations to the present.

I was just curious about your take on that aspect.

As far as I see it, I believe that the "jealousy" or "envy" is based upon the Gentiles being accepted and grafted into the vine -- by faith in God through Christ Jesus our Lord.

I've spoken with Jews about the Lord in which they had surprising responses. One man told me that he was surprised that non-Jews ever turned to faith and God. He also lamented the fact that Christians seem to know the Old Testament better than most Jews. He pointed out that most modern Jews are more familiar with what teachers have explained about the Old Testament than the Old Testament itself. This is despite the fact that many Jewish children will recite portions of the Law and the Prophets at a bar-mitzva.

My suggestion to them is to become familiar with the Old Testament -- and then read the Gospels in the New Testament. I said this will help them know whether or not they make sense. After all, Moses wrote about Jesus (John 6:46).

ESchaible-

Thanks for that clarification. It helps.

Chris-

Another question (thanks for the conversation by the way).

I know you previously said that you weren’t exactly sure how "all Israel” might be saved in one day.

I think there is a belief out there than when they (Jews) see Jesus coming out of the sky at the Second Coming they will repent and believe.

If that is the case (and I am not saying this is your position) can that be considered "faith?” After all at that point they would be seeing Jesus coming in glory with their own eyes.

Further, if this IS when all Jewish people will finally believe, will that "offer” be open to everyone else (non- Jews) who is alive to see it? Or is it too late for everyone else?

We can agree to disagree regarding these things without conflict, however considering the obvious historical facts that I had found well before coming across that video interview, it isn’t a conspiracy to point out grossly disproportionate representation and subsequent patterns of behavior 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Nonetheless, when I say Israel owes its existence to the Lord Jesus that is in contrast to its current iteration which was by Lord Rothschild, and there’s no denying they relocated (Eastern Europeans) Ukrainians to what is now called Israel after WWII.
Likewise there is no denying that Israel is attempting to get the Palestinians out of their back yard, call it what you will -
Likewise they is no denying that it just so happens that 96% of the worlds media is under the direction of Jewish persons. So it’s not surprising that there os a disproportionate representation in media as well….
This is no way an indictment against the Jewish people in general, rather it is the result of simply observing my country and the world around me.
Again I would be foolish to ignore it-

For me, I can’t find anything after Pentecost that God does that doesn’t glorify the Lord Jesus. Yet I can’t find anything about the reformation of the state of Israel from last century that does glorify Jesus … so considering the scriptures say that the devil will deceive the whole world, and there would be people pretending to be Jews but actually worshiped Satan, then there would naturally be a tendency to look out for this and it doesn’t take long to find overwhelming evidence to be honest-

Im not a Palestinian advocate or anything but I will advocate for kids and they represent the majority of living souls in Palestine.
Also I’m not anti-Semitic but I am anti-sin especially when it’s being institutionalized and I will publicly stand against it, no matter who is promoting it, even if it’s "Gods elect” as you call them.

The two major points of Romans 9 concerning the Jewish people and Christians has to do first, with God's mercy based on the principle of granting mercy to whomever He will towards the Christians and His judgment towards Israel through a partial hardening and second, regarding the Christians attaining to righteousness by faith which they did not seek while Israel sought it but did not attain to it. The example that Paul uses of jealousy is the example of Esau and Jacob and the older and younger brother ironically enough. Esau was jealous of Jacob because the birth right inheritance was given to Jacob instead of Esau. Strangely and perhaps unexplainably in the context of Romans 9, the choice was by God not on the virtue of what Esau did by rejecting his inheritance (things done in the body) but on the basis of God's mercy and will which I don't really understand in the context of the conversation in Romans 9 of Israel not attaining to the righteousness it sought because they did not pursue it with faith as did the Gentiles.

I'm not claiming inerrancy on this understanding but the plain wording of Romans 9 is superior as a source of understanding than some of the jealousy theories posited which don't seem to have direct evidence from the direct language and examples in the text discussing jealousy. Speculation seems to me to be lacking in fear and trembling as to God's word, plans and will for His people in these dangerous and critical times and extrapolation is not as useful as the plain words used.

Hi Fletcher,

I think Rothschild, Rockefeller and masons and new world order and the likes of it are conspiracy theories. But.... there is a few percent chance it is true. I don't want to go down the rabbit hole which I once did. Now, I try to focus on the Lord Jesus Christ and not care about those conspiracy theories anymore.

CofG wrote:
"Romans 9 is superior as a source of understanding than some of the jealousy theories posited which don't seem to have direct evidence from the direct language and examples in the text discussing jealousy. Speculation seems to me to be lacking in fear and trembling as to God's word, plans and will for His people in these dangerous and critical times and extrapolation is not as useful as the plain words used."

Romans 9 is the first of a three chapter exposition of God's complete dealings with His people. If you read Romans as it ought to be read, a complete book/letter, and not a series of stand alone chapters, these "jealousy theories" actually are the entire point of the covenant being extended to gentiles at all.

Paul warns gentile believers in the Christ (Jewish Messiah), not to boast against the natural branches, but to stand in awe. Theirs is naturally, by birth and descent, and more importantly by God's sovereign election, what we gain ONLY because they sought to attain a righteousness that was not by faith in their Messiah. Of the 4 covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and Messianic), none of them were made with, or promised to gentiles.

The only reason any of them were extended to the gentiles was because God said, "I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation". How does God do this? "I have been found of those who did not seek me, I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me". God does this by sovereign election, showing Himself to the gentile nations as provocation to Israel. Israel stumbled over Jesus because they sought a righteousness that was predicated on the works of the Mosaic covenant, but failed time and time again.

But even so there is presently a remnant of Israel elected by grace, and the rest are hardened until the fullness of the gentiles comes in. This happened because of Israels trespasses, and "through their trespass salvation has come to the gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous".

Paul wrote this to the gentile Romans, as the apostle to the gentiles, in order to magnify his ministry in hopes "somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them".

Paul says further that through salvation being extended to the gentiles, and when their fullness comes in, "in this way all Israel will be saved" as "the deliverer will come from Zion" (spiritual Zion in this context, the community of believers in Jesus) "in order that by the mercy shown to you, they also may receive mercy" and through this glorious plan and wisdom of God, all might receive mercy, both Jew and Gentile alike, through Jesus.

Therefore we can conclude, as Paul does, that the glorious wisdom and knowledge of God are far beyond understanding, all things are from Him, to Him and through Him, and all things are for His glory to the debasement and humbling of all fleshly pride.

To this end Paul further exhorts the Romans to "present their bodies a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God", to "be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind" so that through testing and trial we can "discern what is good and acceptable and perfect", and by further implication choose the perfect.

So you see that these are not "jealousy theories" at all, but rather God's eternal plan for Jew and Gentile to humble human pride and all flesh before Him. He is God and we are not to question Him, or boast against His elected people. We are to present ourselves, gentile partakers of the Jewish promises, covenants and Messiah, as sacrifices for God to raise up in His perfect will and use as the means to provoke His elect, Paul's kinsmen according to the flesh, natural inheritors of Davidic and Abrahamic promises, the Jews, to a jealous search in repentance and faith that ends at Jesus.

In this way the deliverer comes from spiritual Zion to prepare the way for His return to rule in physical Zion. This is the ministry of reconcilation given to us towards Israel, just as God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, Christ is in the gentile believers, provoking the Jew to jealousy as they see their God working gloriously through a people that were not Gods people until they were graft into the covenants and promises.

No man is sufficient for these things, and the gentile believer must lose His life in following Jesus so that just as Lazarus was raised from the dead and many Jews believed, so too will many Jews believe when they see the church in resurrection glory reclining at the table with Jesus. But with that comes the world system seeking to kill the risen ones, just as they sought to kill Lazarus right along with Jesus.

In death we live, and in living believe, and therefore never die.

To God be the glory.

ES,

Thanks for the explanation but you seem to quickly gloss over or perhaps run by the example of Esau and Jacob where jealousy was the main issue in those men going towards different ends in life and the corresponding link that example would have with the Gentiles receiving the inheritance in the Kingdom that was offered by God with extended pleading time and time again to the Jews but they rejected it. As Paul says, what the Jews sought ( rich young ruler ) the Gentiles received who were not seeking it. God's promises to the Jewish people won't fail though because it would seem that a remnant will be saved in the end time. Seems to be a plain and simple reading of a plain and simple presentation by God in Chapters 9-11 of the promises made to the Jews, who will benefit from them and when will they be brought into those covenant promises again.

And btw, I totally agree with your reference to the warning to Gentiles not to become arrogant or have spiritual pride as to their inheritance as the Jewish people did and were broken off. It's a real and present danger.

If you look at Hebrews 11, it was the men and women who had "faith" in a heavenly home that God has prepared for them who had the approval of God and who will receive the promised eternal life in God. This faith that was held starting with Abel and continuing through Enoch, Abraham, Moses and onward through those Jews who had faith and now by us people who have not received what was promised and lived and live as foreigners and aliens on the earth, even in Israel. Thus God was not and is not ashamed to be called the God of such people. Please note that the people who are approved by God starts with Abel and with examples of Abraham prior to his circumcision which is the point Paul makes in Romans 4. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in the Kingdom which Paul also makes very clear. Those Jews who inherited the physical kingdom were men and women of faithfulness to God. Those who were unfaithful in that OT picture perished in the wilderness and thus the writer of Hebrews in discussing the permanent covenant warns the Jewish Christians to remain faithful so that they would not fall away ( as they did at Kadesh Barnea) and perish from the eternal promises.

Hi Todd,

I know you previously said that you weren’t exactly sure how "all Israel” might be saved in one day.

I think there is a belief out there than when they (Jews) see Jesus coming out of the sky at the Second Coming they will repent and believe.

If that is the case (and I am not saying this is your position) can that be considered "faith?” After all at that point they would be seeing Jesus coming in glory with their own eyes.

There is an enormous amount of debate over such things (even among very learned and prayerful believers). I don't want to risk staking or affirming a position that might (ultimately) be incorrect. Entire denominations are often built upon doctrinal peculiarities -- most of which the founders of those denominations, fellowships or sects (and their adherents) believe to be "indisputable truth" from the Word of God.

Thus, all that I can offer is conjecture. Like you and others, I am very prayerful and studious when it comes to all things Biblical or doctrinal. In areas that aren't absolutely clear, all we can offer is some conjecture and hope to avoid imitating those who, in their zeal, might hastily declare something to be a "clear truth" and expect or even demand other "true believers" to align with it. That's not what I intend; so, I apologize for any confusion in my responses.

As for a few of my thoughts about how this (potentially) could transpire...

It's not the idea that Jesus suddenly appears at the Second Coming and all of physical Israel goes from non-belief to belief and repents. Instead, I consider the coming wrath of God as one way in which God can work on the hearts of physical Israel.

Throughout the history of Israel, when the people collectively turned from the LORD, God would hand them over to be oppressed or subjugated by other nations. If you read the events of the Exodus, wrath would come upon Israel when they turned from God. In the book of the Judges, when the people did evil in the eyes of the LORD, they would be subjugated and plundered by other nations. The Promised Land was still their possession; but, they would suffer until they cried out to God for a deliverer.

During the era of the divided kingdom, the Promised Land would suffer famine and drought when Israel served other gods. In fact, the land today looks very little like the lush land described by God to Moses -- a land flowing with milk and honey. You would read prophecies of pestilences coming upon Israel if they didn't turn to God. This "promised land" that "flows with milk and honey" became arid and filled with locusts.

I've been inclined to believe that the wrath of God (during that period of great tribulation) will be done so that the people of this world -- especially Israel -- in their great distress would turn to God. In Revelation chapters 9 and 16, we read that the rest of mankind living through some of these periods of wrath and tribulation still would not repent. So, as was true with Egypt prior to the exodus, God's wrath would continue.

I also feel that, during that time, there will 144,000 evangelists (I'm inclined to view this literally) from the twelve tribes (i.e., physical Israel who turned to Christ and have become spiritual Israel) who will be quite successful in reaching a multitude for Christ. In fact, I also think that it's possible that throughout the time of "great tribulation" ("unlike what the world has ever experienced"), God will use them to work at winning the hearts of physical Israel.

I do believe that THE Antichrist is coming (even though many antichrists have come). So, I do not view the passages in Revelation referring to the Beast and the False Prophet as having already occurred. There are quite a few reasons for this (although it's really a different discussion).

With this in mind, I do think that the passages referring to the "abomination which causes desolation standing in the holy place" (in Matthew 24) refers to the beast to come and not just the many antichrists that have previously come (1 John 2:18). In fact, lately, I’ve thought about the possibility that the "abomination that causes desolation” mentioned by Daniel and Revelation’s "image of the beast” might be tied to the dream of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of the various kingdoms.

Each of those empires in Daniel’s interpretation of the dream ”“ Babylon, Medes & Persians, Greek, Roman and the last, unknown that is "partly iron, partly clay” ”“ are empires that conquered and controlled the Promised Land. In fact, since Israel and Judah were carried off into captivity, there was never any autonomous governing authority there….until 1948 (partially) and 1967 (the entire city of Jerusalem and elsewhere).

If the "beast” (i.e., Antichrist) and false prophet come and do something that is absolutely contrary to Scripture such as making an image and setting it up for worship, this would be a violation of the first two commandments. However, I’m considering the actions of the "many antichrists” which John said have already come (1 John 2:18). If Antiochus IV Epiphanes, Nero, Titus or others were part of those "many antichrists” staked a claim over Jerusalem and desecrated it, perhaps that is what the final Antichrist would also do ”“ but this time with a false prophet and lying signs and false wonders heralding his coming.

This is where I think that the Lord’s return might occur ”“ and I believe that Zechariah 12 is a prophetic utterance of this event.

…….

8 On that day the Lord will protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them on that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the angel of the Lord, going before them. 9 And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, WHEN THEY LOOK ON ME, ON HIM WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED, THEY SHALL MOURN FOR HIM, AS ONE MOURNS FOR AN ONLY CHILD, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

11 On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be AS GREAT AS THE MOURNING FOR HADAD-RIMMON IN THE PLAIN OF MEGIDDO.

Zechariah 12:8-11 (ESV)

…….

Again: This isn't an assertion. I have read many of your posts about your thoughts regarding the Olivet Discourse, Revelation, etc. Knowing this, I hope that my rambling hasn’t lost you. This is merely something that I feel is quite possible as derived from passages contained throughout the Old Testament prophets along with New Testament passages and the Revelation.

Each time I read through the Old Testament (including all of the prophets) in its entirety, I am struck by the references to Israel and the Lord longing to work in them as he works for them. The passages clearly indicate "physical” Israel rather than a "spiritual” Israel ”“ because several of those passages speak longingly for them to turn to God.

If that is the case (and I am not saying this is your position) can that be considered "faith?” After all at that point they would be seeing Jesus coming in glory with their own eyes.

Further, if this IS when all Jewish people will finally believe, will that "offer” be open to everyone else (non- Jews) who is alive to see it? Or is it too late for everyone else?

…….

36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, "Peace to you!”

37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and WHY DO DOUBTS ARISE IN YOUR HEARTS?

39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate before them.

Luke 24:36-43 (ESV)

…….

The Gospel of John also includes another anecdote of the resurrection. This time, it involved Thomas:

…….

24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I WILL NEVER BELIEVE.”

26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you.”

27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. DO NOT DISBELIEVE, BUT BELIEVE.”

28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

John 20:24-29 (ESV)

…….

I suppose that you can go back all the way to the book of Exodus and see the times that the children of Israel struggled with faith ”“ even when they saw the cloud, fire, manna, quail, water from the rock, etc. The same is true of many Jews who saw Jesus and his miracles the first time "he came unto his own and his own people did not receive him” (John 1:11 ESV).

As for your secondary questions: I’m not totally sure. Twice in Revelation, it says that the rest of the people would not repent. I suppose that the door of opportunity would be open to ANYONE who would turn to Christ with all of their heart. However, the question would be whether or not they would even be present at the moment Christ returns to the Promised Land.

Also, I apologize for the delay in a response. We've been a bit busy. We were out on a ~20 mile bicycle ride this afternoon. We have some family members visiting too; so, we've been in-and-out all day. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to proofread anything either. I hope that it isn't too confusing. And, I also hope that this is mostly my own personal conjecture too.

ESchaible wrote:

Of the 4 covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and Messianic), none of them were made with, or promised to gentiles.

With whom was the New Covenant made and for whom was it made?

Gal. 3:16,19,26-29 --
Now THE PROMISES WERE SPOKEN TO ABRAHAM AND TO HIS SEED. He does not say, "And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather TO ONE, "And to your seed,” THAT IS, CHRIST…………UNTIL THE SEED WOULD COME TO WHOM THE PROMISE HAD BEEN MADE……For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. AND IF YOU BELONG TO CHRIST (lit. ARE CHRIST’S), THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM’S DESCENDANTS (lit. SEED), HEIRS ACCORDING TO PROMISE.

The line of Abraham according to Paul:

Abraham -----> CHRIST -----> All IN Christ (i.e., all BELIEVERS, Jew and Gentile)

Gal. 3:6-9 --
Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the GOSPEL beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

TRUTH came to be through Jesus Christ (John 1:17).
Jesus is the truth (John 14:6).

Question:

Does anyone here see John 5:43 as a prophetic statement concerning "physical Israel" and the antichrist?

John 5:43 - "I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive."

If that statement is prophetic, it may influence your understanding of "all Israel" in Romans 11:26 (i.e. whether "all Israel" refers to "physical Israel" or "physical and spiritual Israel").

Personally, I'm not convinced that Romans 11:26 necessarily implies every member of physical Israel will be saved. It's one thing to assert that many Jews will come to receive Jesus as their Messiah, it's another to state that every Jew will do the same.

Another question, especially for Chris: (others can feel free to chime in)

1. The promise of the land was extended to Abraham - the father of faith - and his descendants. On what basis do you think that this promise belongs to Abraham's physical descendants ("physical Israel) rather than his true spiritual descendants ("spiritual Israel")?

2. The land promised to Abraham is much larger than present-day Israel, encompassing several other nations: https://theisraelbible.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/biblical-boundaries.jpg

Would you apply your same logic for present-day Israel to all the remaining parts of the promised land? (i.e. "physical Israel" has a right to all the remaining parts of the promised land, which were not incorporated into David's kingdom)

I have still been following the discussion and followed up on a few things and did more reading.
My conclusion is now clear, I can not stand with this political system with its agenda.

Christians seem the only ones that support it.
Even many Jews realise that something is seriously wrong.
The situation is extremely serious and could lead to another major war.
One day we might be among the suffering people !
I'm quite certain about that.

There is not much point that I write more.
We should pray and seek God's Wisdom in all this and ask God if what we are doing is right.

Before you call me "anti-"whatever..., have a quick look at the following clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zjaSlP2OxE
It is just one of many tricks, that's not of God.

I finish with Paul's warning:
"But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent." (2 Cor. 11:3 NLT)

And a Gospel message:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOmipqhQBOM
The old rugged cross

Markus

Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Qur'an
Genesis 15:18 - On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates..."

When the Palestinians say they want the river to the sea they want the destruction of Jews in Israel they don't want Jews to exist and I don't want to be a dhimmi in my own country

My problem is that if Muslims will go for the Jews first and then Christians next
I don't want our country to end up like Pakistan

Sura 2:216 Fighting is prescribed upon you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing
which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

Sura 2:191-193 And slay them wherever ye catch them and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution is
worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith But if they cease, Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful. And fight them on until there is no more persecution and the religion becomes Allah's. But if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.

Sura 8:59-60 Let not unbelievers think that they have escaped, they will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

Sura 9:73 0 Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.

In the Qur'an there are verses that are prescribe to fight against Christians and Jews

"The Hour will not begin until you fight the Jews, until a Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say: ‘O Muslim, O slave of Allah, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him ”“ except the gharqad (a kind of thorny tree)

This is what is says in the hadiths

DeoGloria,

I have, in other threads, said as much. I do not by any means support what Israel is doing in Gaza. I do not in fact support the political state, or it's false geographic boundaries at all. I do support Jewish people, in truth however, not in sentimentality that gives blanket approval to sin. What the current state is doing is sin, and is on the same level of Hamas and others they call terrorists.

Israel, in its violence and murder, is setting the stage for, and making it all to easy for the satanic world system to once again endeavor to slaughter every last one of them. The world, many unknowingly, hate the Jew. When the time comes and they see what look to them as a good enough reason, that is all the reason they will need to approve of their decimation. It has already happened once in Germany, the least likely place in that day and age.

If others do approve of the political agenda and blatant and self serving sinfulness of the present state of Israel, I stand in opposition to them as well. Sin is sin wherever it is found.

Israel will be judged in the same manner they forsake God, mark my words. Unless they repent and believe the gospel of Jesus they have no hope and will never receive their land as their own.

We must be light to them, the beacon of Jesus, so that one day they can be that same beacon of light and hope for the world. We look for new kingdom, one of righteousness and love, wherein the Lord dwells. A Jew will one day rule this physical world from Zion, Jesus the Christ.

I don't feel like rehashing all of this in yet another thread because each thread is just another endeavor for replacement theology to try and get its teeth into another of Gods people. I can never understand why people challenge each other on these points, when in another thread their views and the same things have already been hashed out and rehashed out. That level of forgetfulness cannot be natural, seems to be spiritual blindness, and I won't be a part of it unless the Lord tells me to.

You wrote regarding conspiracy theories as it relates to a World Order or system of control,… respectfully, does not the scriptures clearly state there will be one (world order) controlled by Satan where he has the authority to even deny buying and selling unless his image is worshiped?
Does the scriptures also not say that anyone who worships the image will not enter the kingdom?

Do the scriptures not also clearly demonstrate a conspiracy regarding the Sanhedrin infiltrating Jesus’s inner circle with Judas?
As well as a conspiracy with the Romans to demonize Jesus and His followers as rebels (domestic terrorist) ?

Did Satan not come to kill, steal and destroy?
Was he not given power and authority to deceive the world?
Can you not look around at the world we live in and see the increase of iniquity?

Do the scriptures not plainly state,
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, ((((but))))against principalities, against powers, ((((against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places”))))

We (children of God) aren’t at war with people who have been deceived by the devil, rather we use our weapons (spiritual) to set them free. Yet that’s not the end of the verse now is it…. It says "but” we are at war with those whom are knowingly, purposefully pursue maturity in their evil, that happen to have gained control over the systems of this world through their deceptive means.

There is far too much evidence that a particular faction has been working behind the scenes, but now have emerged into the open where by promoting the normalization of the practice of sin, have effectively created a context of iniquity whereby they are effectively camouflaged and their practice of evil in the sight of the Lord goes unchallenged and what’s most grievous, even promoted by the church in many cases.

(For me) this is not new and I have been reasonably consistent here on SI for years calling for us to wake up and amor up (put on Christ) as we are at war and have been well before the recent conflict in ME.

having said this, (for me) it would be a great error to justify what’s happening to mostly children just because someone "declared war”… declaring war against terrorist (itself a misnomer) doesn’t justify mass murder today in Gaza anymore than it did in Iraq during the Bush administration.
The reason (for me) it would be error to rubber stamp whatever Israel thinks they should do, is precisely because of what Cccchris has so throughly articulated in this thread, albeit not to this end, namely that it is not the Israel f God that does this but a Secular Israeli State that plainly denies Christ 🤷🏽”â™‚️
Because they are unsaved and unregenerate, they cannot be in Gods good will and therefore without the mind of Christ or even the Holy Spirit to guide them, they cannot but err even with the best most noble and reasonable intentions.

So if my noticing that 96% of the worlds media, which pushes and promotes sin/ungodliness,… or that our education system was likewise infiltrated/infected with the same teachings, or that our government and federal agencies are under the influence through gross over representation of a particular group who again punishes righteousness and rewards sin, this is not to mention the banking system, the tech sector, pharmaceutical industries, etc… who all are under the majority control of this same group of particular group of people who oppose Godliness intentionally and purposefully at every turn even to the point of inventing new ways to promote unholy practices,… if this makes me, your brother in Christ, a "conspiracy theorist” then so be it 🤷🏽”â™‚️
But I will not divide with you over it, other than to pray that the Lord Jesus deals mercifully with us, giving us (light) understanding in these dark days of deception where that which being evil is called good and that which is good being labeled evil.

We would do well to remember that the devil has been defeated by the cross of our savior Jesus the Christ and as such the enemy doesn’t have to defeat us to "win”, rather he only has to deceive us (just like Eve) into choosing to align ourselves or come into agreement with him, effectively partaking in his defeat whereby we forfeit that for which Christ shed His blood✝️
Satan knows he ultimately can’t win, for he is a defeated foe, so his intention is to take as many with him as possible through deceiving/distracting us with the cares and concerns (love) of this world.

As a Christian there is archaeology that has been destroyed that relates to the bible such as the Joshua altar was destroyed by Muslims
As a Christian the areas that have fallen into Muslim hands

Isis destroyed the Jonah's tomb
Hamas is part of the Muslim brotherhood

I have friends in Israel that don't necessarily agree with the Israel government

There were pastors who were slaughter by Hamas

Before 2005, there was no rockets being fired from Gaza before it was handed over to Hamas

Israel does not occupy the Gaza strip Hamas do and they don't want Israel to exist

We have had Muslim prayers outside downing Street, if you understand the quran

This is an article by Peter Hammond
https://virtueonline.org/what-islam-isnt-dr-peter-hammond

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

United States -- Muslim 1.0%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1%-2%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chai ns to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. ( United States ).

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad &Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris --car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam - Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning: Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

Of course, that's not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

We are to fix our eyes on Jesus, not on the Muslims.

Hi Robert,

[12] Therefore prophesy and tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘O My people, I will open your graves and bring you up from them, and I will bring you back to the land of Israel. [13] Then you, My people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. [14] I will put My Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken, and I will do it, declares the Lord.’”

In AD 70, Israel was desolate like dry bones and now God Almighty brought them back to their land in 1948.

Did the Holy Spirit fill the Jewish people in 1948? According to the prophecy, that is how the dry bone would come to life ”“ by the Holy Spirit.

Israel is not yet saved but it says in Romans 11

You cannot cover this issue without covering Israel

All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Doxology
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”[j]
35 "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”[k]
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen

The problems is if you stand with the Palestines you have to confront the issue of Islam

As Islam wants the complete destruction of Israel

The Jewish people are not saved but they will be when jesus comes for his second coming

Israel is also mentioned as the apple of god's eye in Zechariah 2:8
For thus says the Lord of hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye.

Here are 2 messages from Keith Malcomson from Limerick City Church on the present and future events on Israel and Gaza

God's Purpose for Gaza - Keith Malcomson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjRLVIp-tGQ&t=2286s

ISRAEL… What Next? Ezekiel 38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS52_4H-lJI

I stand with the nation of Israel, though they are at large still God's enemies for our sake. Though they are blinded, the Lord works out his plans with them and works miracles among them.
The geographic land is promised to them and it is theirs, it was always contested. Satan knows full well, that geographic and physical Israel is instrumental for the Lord to carry out his plans and fulfil scripture.

I pray for the Jews and Israel to be saved in their fallen apostate state.

I pray for the Arabs to cry out to the real God in the midst of war, confusion, hardship and destruction.

Jews and Arabs are at large both blind to the truth of the Gospel.

There is a revival going on in Iran, with many turning to Christ, though the nation is Israels fiercest enemy.

May the Lord open their eyes and reveal to us what we must know and do.

Hi Dominic,

Yea they are not yet all saved but at the moment we see alot of Jews coming to faith in Jesus Christ who was crucified and buried and was raised to life.

Just a questiom, where you saying that I stand with Palestine? If so, what makes you think I stand with the Muslims? I don't think I have stated anything like that. If I did please clearly state so I can correct my error.
I have mentioned in another post that Israel is God's heart.

Anyway, let's read carefully what others write and not assume things. I too have made those mistakes and made false testimony of others which is the 9th commandment. I hope everyone here avoids this error and let's focus on Jesus Christ instead of the high wind and waves in the sea. He will bring you to the shore and bring you peace

Shalom

/The people that moved into the region following WWII were not the same people as biblical Israel, genetically or culturally and definitely not spiritually. These are easy to source facts./

Were the Jews who perished in WW II just a case of mistaken identity? Did the Holocaust get the wrong people who in reality were not really Jews?

@ESchaible

you said

[I have, in other threads, said as much. I do not by any means support what Israel is doing in Gaza. I do not in fact support the political state, or it's false geographic boundaries at all. I do support Jewish people, in truth however, not in sentimentality that gives blanket approval to sin. What the current state is doing is sin, and is on the same level of Hamas and others they call terrorists.

Israel, in its violence and murder, is setting the stage for, and making it all to easy for the satanic world system to once again endeavor to slaughter every last one of them. The world, many unknowingly, hate the Jew. When the time comes and they see what look to them as a good enough reason, that is all the reason they will need to approve of their decimation. It has already happened once in Germany, the least likely place in that day and age.]

This is a shocking and grievious statement!

I would understand if it came from the ultra-left or the "squad"

God gave them the land, it is theirs, period. The scriptures clearly speak of a physical, geographical re-establishment of Israel prior to its theocratical reinstatement with Christ ruling from Zion.

You have a problem with that? You have a problem with God.

Israel gave the Palestinians the land and granted them self-rule, they supply them with free energy and water.
The Palestinians had one election and voted for Hamas, who took control and now rules by tyranny, cracking down any dissent.
Hamas top agenda is to wide Israel off the map and kill all Jews if they had their way.
This obviously more important to the Palestinians than to run their own country and care for their own welfare.
They entered into Israel and killed who they could indiscriminately.
They launch rockets from public places such as schools and kindergardens. They rejoice when Israel accidentally kill civilians and children in retaliation, so that they can blame it on them.
They try to manipulate the UN accusing Israel for human right violations, though they themselves violate the rights of their own people.
Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. All surrounding states are ruled top down to say the least.
Hamas took the food supplies that came in from Egypt. They tried to hinder the northern Gazans to flee to the south.
They most likely, if purposely or by accident, bombed their own hospital and blamed it on Israel.

Israel does what every nation is entitled to when threatend or attacked.
The Palestinians created their own prison - Israel used to allow them to come and into their land for work, but if they shoot rockets and commit terrorist attacks, they would be suicidal if they would allow them in. You yourself saw what they did when they entered Israel.

Narrow path,

You must have stopped reading after the small bit you quoted from me because you, somehow, gathered I don't believe in a physical restoration of Zion to both Jesus and Israel.

The boundaries given to Abraham that will be restored to the Jews when Jesus returns are not the boundaries set up in the 1940s by man. Israel is in sin and will bring the judgment of God upon their own heads, and through this judgment God will humble them, and use the church to be a witness to them, provoking them to seek their own Messiah as they see Him working through His community of believers through the time of Jacobs trouble. When judgement falls and Israel (the people, Jacobs physical descendants, not some political charade that serves to do nothing but deceive those that mistake it for what God has chosen) is humbled, the church will be God's mouthpiece to speak prophetic words of life to them, and thereby we will see a Jewish people risen up in newness of spiritual life, and all remaining Jews will be saved as Jesus reigns from physical Zion and Israel is reinstated in its proper place as priests to the world.

The sentimental love for some political world system that calls itself "Israel" is to make the exact same mistake as saying everyone inside a building that calls itself a church is a Born again believer. It's beyond my comprehension how anyone can believe that God approves of a political world system that bombs and kills it's enemies, seeks nothing but self will and self sufficiency, just because the sign at the border says "Israel" on it.

Entitlement is the reigning sin in modern society, and Jesus calls us, and the world, to die to it. The statement that anyone is entitled to anything in this world, other than God Himself, places this conversation at very glaring impasse and exposes the depths of your stance. No one is "entitled" to kill their enemies. Jesus taught us to love them.

If my statement is "shocking and grievous" to you, but you can openly and obviously condone the slaughter of your enemy, and the actions of a world political system that is antichrist (be not conformed to this world, as Paul so eloquently stated), than we are at a very startling and revealing point in this thread.

The teachings of Jesus are the rules of the kingdom, and nothing being done by the current political system calling itself Israel is following those teachings. Jesus calls all men to repent and believe the gospel, and when Jacobs descendants do this en masse, the land will be restored. Scripture is plain judgment and the church are the avenues through which God will do this, and ultimately fulfill prophecy and bring about the new heaven and new earth, where Jesus reigns supreme from Zions holy hill.

This deception runs surprisingly deep. That world system is Israel by name only, just as Lucifer is the light bringer by name only. Supporting the world political system calling itself Israel is deception in its most subtle and sinister form.

//God will humble them, and use the church to be a witness to them, provoking them to seek their own Messiah as they see Him working through His community of believers through the time of Jacobs trouble. When judgement falls and Israel (the people, Jacobs physical descendants, not some political charade that serves to do nothing but deceive those that mistake it for what God has chosen) is humbled, the church will be God's mouthpiece to speak prophetic words of life to them, and thereby we will see a Jewish people risen up in newness of spiritual life, and all remaining Jews will be saved as Jesus reigns from physical Zion and Israel is reinstated in its proper place as priests to the world. //

Where do you see this in scripture? I know Art Katz taught it but it always seemed like a personal belief than something laid out plainly in scripture.

Hi Fletcher,

We can agree to disagree regarding these things without conflict, however considering the obvious historical facts that I had found well before coming across that video interview, it isn’t a conspiracy to point out grossly disproportionate representation and subsequent patterns of behavior 🤷🏽♂️

Nonetheless, when I say Israel owes its existence to the Lord Jesus that is in contrast to its current iteration which was by Lord Rothschild, and there’s no denying they relocated (Eastern Europeans) Ukrainians to what is now called Israel after WWII.
Likewise there is no denying that Israel is attempting to get the Palestinians out of their back yard, call it what you will -
Likewise they is no denying that it just so happens that 96% of the worlds media is under the direction of Jewish persons. So it’s not surprising that there os a disproportionate representation in media as well….
This is no way an indictment against the Jewish people in general, rather it is the result of simply observing my country and the world around me.
Again I would be foolish to ignore it-

I think that there IS some denying the underlying tone or suggestion of conspiracy/conspiracies made by various claims. I’m not saying that ALL conspiracies are unfounded ”“ even if most tend to be unsubstantiated, false or a strange linking of fact and suspicion. Regardless, whether true or not, they shouldn’t move us from the truth of Scripture and our faith in Christ Jesus.

For instance, it is true that Lord Rothschild supported the establishment of a Jewish homeland in its ancestral territory. It’s also true that he was the recipient of the actual letter of support for it (i.e., the "Balfour Declaration”). However, this is likely because there was no structured government or non-government organization for this goal. So, the letter was mailed to Walter Rothschild (because his address was known).

So, it's something of a stretch to say that Israel "owes its existence" to a man (Walter Rothschild) who died nearly 11 years before Israel became a nation. Remember: The Balfour Declaration was an agreement that stated that it was a viable goal for Jews who were living as persecuted sojourners throughout the world.

After all, in 1917, Britain was at war with the "Central Powers” ”“ including the Germans, Austrian-Hungarians, Bulgarians and Ottomans (the ancient Muslim empire that were seeking control of the Middle East). By this time, Russia was engaged in a civil war pitting the Czar’s forces against the Bolsheviks ”“ and the prevailing Bolsheviks cracked down on the Jews living in what became Soviet lands.

and there’s no denying they relocated (Eastern Europeans) Ukrainians to what is now called Israel after WWII.

I'm not sure what Eastern Jews living in areas like Ukraine have to do with anything. Before the war, Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union. There was a massive famine during the worldwide Great Depression ”“ and the Soviets funneled food and energy from Ukraine to Moscow. Ukraine was starving ”“ and Jews were treated as second-class citizens.

During the war, Ukraine was a battleground between the Nazis and Soviets. Jews in Ukraine had been subjected to extermination by the Nazis. The "Final Solution” of the Nazis to the "Jewish Question” (a very different proposal from the Balfour Declaration’s solution) was GENOCIDE. This was a real call for genuine genocide ”“ and not the flippant idea tossed around today. Up to 1.6 Million Jews were murdered in Ukraine alone by the occupying government.

After the war, many Jews were murdered during Stalin’s purges. The Soviets’ hardline laws on religion made it difficult for Christians and observant Jews to practice their faith. The state religion of the Soviet Union was atheism ”“ and, without any measure of faith to guide the decisions about marriage, there was a large mixing of the Soviet territory’s people. Still, many Christians and Jews continued to quietly practice their beliefs.

By the time Israel was formed in 1948, it wasn’t just the Jews who wanted to escape from Ukraine. There were many who wanted to flee but were prevented by the Soviets. Jews managed to find a way to their new homeland. However, these mostly consisted of the poor, elderly and uneducated ”“ the ones that the Soviets didn’t believe could contribute to their socialist system anyway.

Likewise there is no denying that Israel is attempting to get the Palestinians out of their back yard, call it what you will -

Also: I think that MANY people -- especially from Israel -- would deny this claim that the Israelis are trying to "get the Palestinians out of their back yard." After all, Palestinians have lived in Israel since Israel was formed. There are Palestinians working in Israeli government. One of the justices on the Israeli Supreme Court is Palestinian.

This doesn’t sound like Israel is "attempting to get the Palestinians out of their back yard.” In fact, the Israelis initially accepted a two-state solution going back to the very beginning in 1948. It was the Arabs and Palestinians who opposed ANY portion of the territory (remember, there was no such nation of "Palestine”). The Israeli charter is for the Palestinians to live in peace with them. The Hamas Charter states for the destruction of Israel and the annihilation of the Jews. In fact, the Hamas Charter completely rejects ANY attempts at negotiation with the Jews.

In fact, I encourage you to read the Hamas Charter. It’s a frightening hate-filled document. Interestingly, it is also filled with wild conspiracy theories about a grand "Jewish conspiracy” of world domination. It alleges that this Jewish conspiracy was behind everything from the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and everything from Freemasons to the Rotary Club and Lion’s Club. Unfortunately, there is a subset of society that are often referred to as "lazy armchair pseudo-intellectuals.” These refer to those individuals who limit their "research” to conspiracy-repeating sources but aren’t proactive in endeavoring to test any and all claims perpetrated by those sources.

In their charter, Hamas claims that all religious faiths (apart from the Jews) can coexist under Hamas rule of the territory. However, they offer this frightening requirement: "It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the SOVEREIGNTY OF ISLAM IN THE REGION, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror.”

Once again, Hamas demands refer back to the LAND ”“ and the demand for acknowledgement of the pagan god they call "Allah” as supreme over every other faith. Hamas and the Muslim (or other) supporters of this ideology are wrong on all counts.

Likewise they is no denying that it just so happens that 96% of the worlds media is under the direction of Jewish persons. So it’s not surprising that there os a disproportionate representation in media as well….

First of all, that "96%” number is strangely specific. Did you calculate this number or get it from some other source? Moreover, the idea suggests another conspiracy ”“ that a backroom group of Jews are conspiring together to not only control the flow of media but to influence its narratives throughout the world. Let’s be clear that most media corporations are in direct competition with one another. Lawsuits filed against one another are surprisingly common. As is true with all public corporations, the goal is one of profits.

Now, I agree that there is a dangerous media oligopoly ”“ particularly in America and the flow of "news.” Moreover, there is a large ratio of Jews who work in the media. However, this is largely because of what they were limited to during many centuries of persecution as sojourners. So, they worked in certain industries (such as banking) that had less oversight in order to escape persecution. Some industries ”“ like Hollywood ”“ was bankrolled by, well, banks and investors.

As I pointed out, many Jews owned or governed those banks. Those banks invested in newer industries (as opposed to the old money investments). As the Jewish communities were quite close during all of their sojourning (including America), they often knew the people that they were investing in. So, Hollywood and television found much of its early investments from Jewish investors. As the studios grew into corporations, they no longer had to rely on banks. They could go straight to their own investors (which often included the executive officers and their families).

I’d also point out that Jewish Americans tend to be more liberal than mainstream Americans. During college, I performed a cross-tabulation of American sociopolitical ideological self-identification. The most liberal group in America was American Jews. However, this is not a reflection on ALL Jews (as a large minority of them are deeply conservative).

Moreover, it’s also not a reflection of Jews around the world ”“ let along those in Israel. Whereas Donald Trump was not very popular among Jews in America, he was vastly more popular among Jews in Israel. I would add that the liberalism of Jews in America may have something to do with how Jews were treated during the many centuries of their sojourning throughout the west too. People who claimed to be Christians often treated Jews terribly throughout the last couple millennia.

Consider how corporations work. A corporation might have a Chief Executive Officer; however, that officer reports to its shareholders (i.e., investors). They can collectively boot that CEO if they feel the need. This often happens in the corporate world. It’s a performance-based standard by which they are held to. This is true of the media as well as all industries ”“ including automakers, energy companies, booksellers or corporations that manufacture and sell farm equipment.

Remember: Steve Jobs was once famously forced out of Apple by its board (he officially "resigned” as opposed to being removed) before eventually returning to the company that he co-founded. In the mid-1980s, Apple simply wasn’t profitable by the end of Jobs’ first tenure. After he returned, it became one of the most valuable corporations in the world.

This is no way an indictment against the Jewish people in general, rather it is the result of simply observing my country and the world around me.
Again I would be foolish to ignore it-

Please help me to understand how this is not an "indictment” against the Jewish people in general ”“ especially since it seems that you’ve repeated some very grand conspiracies regarding them. You say that this is "observing my country;” yet, some of the things that you’ve repeated aren’t in regard to America.

I would also say that these conspiracies don’t have much bearing on the topic either. Even if they were entirely accurate (and they aren’t), it doesn’t equate to a rationale behind either animosity toward Israel (or Israeli Jews) as a secular nation OR any sort of Scriptural basis for consideration of the gifts and calling of physical Israel, a reason to stake such a position in the current conflict and/or a basis for future eschatology.

Brother, I do sense that you desire to know the truth in such matters. I also believe that you love non-believers ”“ both Jews and Gentiles (including Palestinian Gentiles). In addition, I perceive that you are willing to engage in studious research too. I would urge you to carefully "prove” all claims that you’ve seen and heard ”“ over and over again ”“ before either believing or repeating those claims or tying them to some sort of doctrinal position on Israel.

Personally, I feel that this topic ”“ a Scriptural basis for standing with Israel (or not) ”“ can only be approached using Scripture rather than entirely earthly anecdotal evidence. As you wrote, "Satan knows he ultimately can’t win.” The Scripture says that the devil has come down to Earth in great wrath for he knows that his time is short (Revelation 12:12). So, our role in this is to spread the GOOD NEWS of Jesus Christ to the world ”“ Jews and Gentiles. Christ is the only hope for a world that is rapidly racing toward judgment.

Hi yuehan,

1. The promise of the land was extended to Abraham - the father of faith - and his descendants. On what basis do you think that this promise belongs to Abraham's physical descendants ("physical Israel) rather than his true spiritual descendants ("spiritual Israel")?

I'm persuaded that all believers are coheirs with Christ. In a way, the land where this conflict is taking place is ultimately OUR inheritance. It was promised to Abraham and his descendants. While this world will continue as it does, the ultimate scenario for this world is spelled out in Scripture. This "promised land" is where we will one day live -- ruling and reigning with Christ.

Like I said, those belonging to physical Israel can only come to the Father through Jesus Christ. There is NO OTHER NAME by which anyone -- Jew or Gentile -- can be saved! All of the apostles preached this message of salvation to physical Israel.

Despite the covenants, promises, gifts and calling, Christ Jesus is the only hope of physical Israel! To be a resident of that Promised Land once Christ returns, you must belong to "spiritual Israel." I believe that physical Israel will be in that land and "see the one they pierced" (Zechariah 12) when our Lord returns.

2. The land promised to Abraham is much larger than present-day Israel, encompassing several other nations: https://theisraelbible.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/biblical-boundaries.jpg

Would you apply your same logic for present-day Israel to all the remaining parts of the promised land? (i.e. "physical Israel" has a right to all the remaining parts of the promised land, which were not incorporated into David's kingdom)

I suppose that one answer could be the simple fact that the people of Israel never took all of that land -- despite it being a part of the promise. It's a shame, really. It was Israel's for the taking because it was gifted to them. God spoke about this when it came to Israel entering the land. God would fight for them. Unfortunately, 10 of the 12 spies returned with a bad report. Those of the various nations weren't driven out either. One empire within the borders of that land (Assyria) eventually carried off the Northern Kingdom into exile.

As how this pertains to present-day Israel: I really don't know. I am inclined to believe that it will belong to "Israel" after the Lord's return. After the Lord returns, all of "Israel" will be spiritual Israel. Perhaps that is the time when ALL of the land that was promised will be contained by the kingdom.

TMK,

I actually just outlined it in a post using plenty of scripture quotations.

These threads are always completely pointless. No one actually takes the time to read anything anyone else writes.

If your genuinely curious there was another huge thread that actually bore fruit on this topic a couple of weeks ago, plus I have posted numerous times.

It feels like these threads are conversations with AI bots trained to locate buzz words sometimes, and is honestly a bit strange at points.

No, God did not fill the Jews with the Holy Spirit in 1948. But He is not through with them yet. There are numerous prophecies that speak of a latter day return toward the end of the age when they return first largely in unbelief.To be illiterate of or indiffrent to them when you know them is to not understand or misrepresnt the big picture of prophetic fulfillment.

Hi Docs and Jade,

When you read Ezekiel 37 from verse 1 to 14 we can see how God will restore Israel step by step.
And i don't recall saying that God filled the Jews with the Holy Spirit in 1948. I think that this will be later on but not too far away.

This is what I wrote as below:
'In AD 70, Israel was desolate like dry bones and now God Almighty brought them back to their land in 1948.'

Maybe I wasn't clear and I hope i didnt cause misunderstanding

I was responding to a post by BranchinVINE where he asked and stated,

/Did the Holy Spirit fill the Jewish people in 1948? According to the prophecy, that is how the dry bone would come to life by the Holy Spirit./

You caused no misunderstanding, it was likely I who did.

Thank you.

//I actually just outlined it in a post using plenty of scripture quotations. //

I just went back 9 pages and didn’t see it. If I missed it my apologies.

After posting a reply to RY I took the day off from this discussion and am only seeing the subsequent posts including yours -

There’s allot you talked about so lots to respond to yet I will attempt to cover them all but that may be too much for one post as there is allot of ground to cover-

Firstly regarding the tendency to refer to things commonly not known or not commonly held as a belief as a conspiracy theory may be enough for others to dismiss them tho that’s not an effective deterrent for someone who loves the truth and rather enjoys searching a matter out🙏🏻😇

Secondly, I in no way indorse nor am aligned with Hamas or any other group of the kind. While I’m not saying you directly linked me to them tho, you did include them in your response to me and I want to clear up any loose associations that you (or a reader) may be unintentionally making regarding my position and those of these groups as that would be patently false.

Now to the meat of the matter,
When I say through observing my own country and the world at large (specifically the power structure) I have found grossly disproportionate representation of Jewish people. This is not an indictment against Jewish people in general not is it a conspiracy to state what I plainly see.

For example, do you deny;
Over 90% of the worlds media is under the direction of Jewish persons?
That our government has 100’s of duel Israeli citizens ?
That the world’s banking system is largely controlled by Jewish persons?
That the world’s media and banking systems punish perceived enemies of Jewish people while protecting Jewish interests?
That Jeffery Epstein was trafficking children to powerful people?
That Gislane Maxwell was trafficking children to powerful people?
That her father Robert Maxwell, also Israeli intelligence, used his acquired fortune to buy American educational textbook publication houses?
That Bill Barr’s (fmr attorney general) father hired Jeffery Epstein to replace himself at a private school in NY?
That of the 3 persons chasing 17 yr old Kyle Rittenhouse through the street attempting to kill/injure him, whom were shot in self defense, 2 of which are convicted pedophiles and all three were Jewish ?
That the ADL (Jewish interest group) trains FBI agents?
That ADL is a racist organization?
That the Talmud promotes multiple genders ?
That the Talmud sanctions child rape?
That the Talmud states Jesus is presently being punished by boiling in human excrement?
That the Talmud promotes Jewish supremacy?
That the Talmud promotes communism?
That Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky were all of Jewish decent ?
That Masons have exerted a substantial influence in our country/government?
That the US government has repeatedly lied to the American people regarding the reasons for wars?
That the US governments main export has been corruption?
That the North American slave trade was heavily profitable to Jewish slave traders?
That the genocide in Rwanda, didn’t directly benefit Jewish diamond traders?
That the world economic forum head, George Soros, Larry Fink, Jimmy Diamond, Larry Silverstein etc… all being Jewish and openly profiting from sin, corruption and the deaths of innocent people?
The list goes on ad infinitum….

These are observations and it’s not a conspiracy to take note…
Surely there are other non-Jewish persons equally guilty of similar offenses, yet these other groups don’t enjoy a "protected status” whereby there is a strange, I’d say ungodly, tendency to treat Israel/Jewish people as a singularity,… which is simply not the case, especially when trying to build a biblical case for (as a Christian) "standing with Israel”,…. My question is which Israel ??
And sense no one has yet been able to delineate (forming consensus among Christians) between the Israel of God and these people running around pretending to be Jews, then I’m left to my own observations/studies. Just because someone was born Jewish or in Israel doesn’t necessarily make them Gods elect, rather the scriptures are rather clear on the matter wether people accept it or not-

This is simply pattern recognition which I learned from the Bible 🤷🏽”â™‚️

As I’ve stated previously, I believe they (Israel) are being set up and not in a good way-

Likewise if Iranians were doing the same things, while being seated in positions of power and instituted means of self protection, I would be equally observant.
This isn’t to say that the Chinese or Iranians (and others) aren’t seeking their own corrupt ends in our government, they certainly are, yet they are not in position to utilize their ethnic disposition to leverage people’s banking or free-speech as Jewish lobby’s currently enjoy., where you can literally lose these rights/provisions when opposing the ADL/Jewish lobby. Again this is not a conspiracy theory, it’s the world I woke up in and must raise my children in, subjecting them to its influence of iniquity.

So (for me) it would be foolish not to notice that not all Jewish people are holy or even godly persons and that despite the relatively low Jewish population, there are a disproportionate number of Jewish persons whom being in power, have promoted the practice of sinfulness all while somehow being included in the camp of Gods elect 🤔
This would be a valid argument if it weren’t for the cross of Christ and the new covenant, where we find no such exclusivity regarding the Jewish people.

I understand you, and others, do in fact retain that the Jewish people are still special and that influences, if not forms, your perspective on the matter.
I don’t take issue with that and held a similar view until several years ago when I began to look at history in order to better understand how we got here. I too viewed Israel as Gods elect, effectively exempt from criticism, tho once I looked into the matter, this view was not capable of accounting for what I found. Which, to put it simply, a small percentage of Jewish people do engage in multinational endeavors, directly opposing Gods word, all while enjoying the covering of the common Jew as Gods chosen people. In my observation this group doesn’t really care for the Jewish people (in a spiritual sense) but rather they exploit the perceived position held by Jews/Israel, as Gods elect, to their own sinful ends. This has been extremely successful in garnering the support of the western Church regarding the public perception of "the moral high ground” and we have been deceived into supporting all types of sin and injustice around the world wether, Israel, Iran, Lydia, Iraq, Afghanistan etc…
We should repent, if the Lord gives place for it 🙏🏻 and like you said be very careful regarding the sources of our information, especially when simply declaring war makes it possible to commit horrible crimes against humanity all with the "blessing” of the church or its members-

Chris, in my understanding of scripture, the Lord doesn’t do anything after the cross that doesn’t glorify Christ Jesus… meaning if you can do it without Jesus then it wasn’t Jesus 🤷🏽”â™‚️
To even have a thread titled "standing with Israel from a biblical perspective” is itself oxymoronic, where if it were biblical we wouldn’t have to make a case for it as it would be obvious that Jesus was the head of the endeavor and so far I can’t find that He is, at least not in the sense that it promotes righteousness or faithful obedience to the Holy one of Israel.

Tho this surely didn’t cover all your points, I hope it helps to clarify why I see it as I do, and to make the point that we should be careful to ascribe a provision to a group that doesn’t adhere to the conditions of said provision, this could be fatally catastrophic spiritually as we do have an enemy (not Jews) that seeks to kill, steal and destroy through deception.

Hi Fletcher,

Epstein did not kill himself and I think so too. But there are some stories like when there is a riot or some kind of big incident, Soros is the one funding it. That I don't know if it's true or not. Also, the adronichrome and the pizza gate stuff, I thought it was true but then I realize how do they know and is this true. If it's true that is crazy and would like to get out of this world as soon as possible.

But then I read this verse,
”­Isaiah”¬ ”­8:12”¬ ”­BSB”¬
[12] "Do not call conspiracy everything these people regard as conspiracy. Do not fear what they fear; do not live in dread.

I don't want to live in fear or dread and now I try to focus on Jesus more. It's not easy.

I can honestly say I don’t fear any of these people or the sin they so persistently seek to promote/impose, at least not on a personal level.
Having said this it is a serious concern that the church is pretty much silent on most things that they should take a stand on.

For example, evil (as a policy) would have a far more difficult time of gaining a toe hold in society if the Church were more consolidated on core issues and spoke with a unified voice concerning such. Tho we seem to be taken captive by lies, wether in media narratives or historic ones, lacking the most basic discernment on fundamental issues as a group.

At the end of the day, we have the remedy and as such the responsibility to, having done all else, stand ✝️

JFW,

To the depth that you believe in the disproportionate influence and present sins of many Jews, do you believe as strongly in the many prophecies regarding their ultimate salvation and restoration in Christ?

35 This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the seaso that its waves roar””
the Lord Almighty is his name:

36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”declares the Lord, will Israel ever cease being a nation before me.”

37 This is what the Lord says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,”declares the Lord."
(Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Also, what other nation has had such a uniquely special promise made to them?

Hi Fletcher,

I hesitated to respond to this post a couple of times. The first time, I didn't feel quite so right about my response (and I deleted it before posting). My second response was a bit more thorough. I went through your post and each of your "do you deny" queries one-by-one. However, I realized that my responses for most of them typically boiled down to a couple of things.

First off, there is a concept (which I'm confident that you're familiar with) called the "burden or proof." Most often, it's used as a legal concept. However, it is also somewhat philosophical and dates back thousands of years. It even has a similar concept in Scripture -- where a matter is settled "on the testimony of two or three witnesses" in both the Old and New Testaments (i.e., Deuteronomy 17:6, Matthew 18:16 and 2 Corinthians 13:1). Another good rule of thumb is to "test everything" and "hold fast to what is good" (I Thessalonians 5:21).

This concept is used even in the fields of mathematics and science. Most high school geometry classes teach students how to perform "proofs" (i.e., deductions using known mathematical logic, postulates, etc.). In science, it is usually referred to as a "null hypothesis."

In research, it basically means that sometimes there are perceived correlations that aren't actually a result of real correlation or causation. Sometimes, the correlation doesn't actually exist (and researchers often test those correlations). In other examples, a potential correlation may be noted, but it can be explained by other variables.

For example, crime rates in the 19th Century increased to the point of maximized occurrences during each full moon. Thus, there was a statistical correlation between a full moon and incidents of crime. However, it was a null hypothesis when you consider the actual correlation was the amount of light resulted in more people staying outside longer into the night. The more people who were outside, the number of criminal offenses increased.

Thus, the hypothesis that "full moons cause criminal activity" is considered "null" because it isn't the moon causing crime or "lunacy" (the actual root word being "lunar" for the Moon) but the fact that the reflected light from the Moon resulted in more people staying out late. Statistically speaking, it didn't take long before people to observe the RATE by which crimes occurred while people were outside. In that case, there was no real correlation as the rate of crimes was roughly the same as when it was early dusk on non-full moon evenings.

Does this make sense?

Another example would be to realize that shark attacks happen more frequently at beaches where snow cones are sold. Obviously, the correlation isn't between snow cones and sharks but the fact that the more people are at a beach and in the water in the heat (when snow cones are most likely to be sold), the greater the chance of being attacked by a shark. Any perceived correlation between snow cones and sharks is nullified by considering all correlations and dismissing (or declaring "null") those that aren't truly tied together.

This is the problem with conspiracy theories. They often have a root of plausibility or even correlation within them. However, this doesn't mean that they are TRUE or even meaningful correlations. In research and mathematics, poorly linked correlations are caught by repeat observation and experimentation. They are also discovered through repeating the same processes to see if they are replicated. If they are not, they can be challenged or (eventually) rejected.

In your long list of conjecture, you've failed when it comes to "proof." You've made a long list of claims yet failed to show either any serious, unbiased sources for each claim. Moreover, some of these claims aren't even verifiable. They are simply a result of "reading between the lines" of events.

That said: The second and more alarming thing that I see here is the fact that all of these unverified claims are more allegations than they are actual questions. You ask if I "deny" things that I have never asserted and for which you have never presented "proof" -- when the burden of proof rests solely upon the person making the claim.

Moreover, there is a fallacy of thinking called "confirmation bias." It's the tendency to perceive correlation because the result is already believed. This sometimes happens in scientific research (although it is often minimized or challenged when others seek to see all of the data, research methodology or when they attempt to replicate an experiment or observation).

For an example: Consider someone who is "King James Only." They might believe that the 1611 KJV is the only acceptable version of the Word of God -- and the only one that is "perfect." So, when a translation mistake is found and discussed, someone who already believes that the KJV is "perfect" is less likely to objectively consider the translation's wording and more likely to try and argue why the KJV "got it right" and everyone else "got it wrong."

Verses such as Acts 12:4 (which uses the word "Easter" in the KJV) includes a readily apparent translation error (using the word "Easter" instead of "Passover"). While every Greek scholar -- and even novices who can read some Greek -- understand the error, this isn't the case for those who see that verse through intrinsic confirmation bias.

Such individuals are SO SURE that the KJV was perfectly translated that they create arguments to validate their point. They do this without even considering the possibility that the translators simply selected the wrong word for the Greek "pascha" -- which is translated only as "Passover" everywhere else in the New Testament (and even in nearly all English Bible translations).

This brings up the third and most egregious concern. It seems that all of the things on this list (that lacks any sources for proof) are meant to serve as "evidence" of some grand Jewish (or Israeli) conspiracy.

You've defended your assertions with an initial claim. You said:

Firstly regarding the tendency to refer to things commonly not known or not commonly held as a belief as a conspiracy theory may be enough for others to dismiss them tho that’s not an effective deterrent for someone who loves the truth and rather enjoys searching a matter out🙏🏻😇

I am not referring to things "commonly not known” or "not commonly held as a belief” as a conspiracy theory. Rather, a conspiracy theory is just this ”“ a theory that there is a conspiracy.

Now, on a wider spiritual level, there is a kingdom of darkness that conspires against our Lord. However, this is not an earthly conspiracy that we "battle” with earthly weapons. This is because the weapons of our warfare are not carnal (i.e., of the flesh or worldly).

When it comes to Jews (i.e., physical Israel), this type of conspiratorial accusation has been directed against Jews for thousands of years. In fact, some of the things that you've written sound quite a bit like some claims about Israel found in the Hamas Charter.

I believe that the repetition of these sorts of conspiratorial myths -- presented in a way often devoid of actual evidence or sources -- is unbecoming to children of God. How so? Scriptures warn us to avoid and have nothing to do with such godless myths, old wives tales, endless genealogies, etc. (I Timothy 1:4; I Timothy 4:7; 2 Timothy 4:4; Titus 1:14; etc.).

Instead of going through your list one-by-one, it is easier and preferable to simply point to the list as a whole and ask:

1.) Where is the evidence (and/or sources); and,
2.) What are you alleging?

This is important because you've made the claims in a public forum. The "burden of proof" is upon you. That proof should be accurate, contain verifiable facts, free from biased sources that engage in confirmation biases or circular reasoning and, most importantly, able to withstand scrutiny.

Moreover, any perceived correlation still requires an acknowledgement of what it is that you're alleging in the first place.

As an example, let's simply look at the first "do you deny" on your list:

Over 90% of the worlds media is under the direction of Jewish persons?

First off, you’ve already changed this figure. Previously, you claimed 96%. Now, you’re claiming 90%. As I stated and asked before, this figure is strangely specific. WHERE did you get this figure? WHAT is your source for this claim? WHAT are you alleging?

This world is a very big place. It’s interesting that you’re assuming that 90% (or 96%) of the entire world’s media are "under the direction of Jewish persons.”

Please show your evidence and sources. Did you make a list of all of the world’s media outlets ”“ studios, national/international/local television outlets, magazines, newspapers, websites, etc. and then numerically arrive to that "90%" or "96%" ratio? HOW did you arrive to this figure and WHERE is your evidence?

Most importantly: What do you even mean by claiming this? Are you claiming this as you might consider it as some sort of "proof” of an underlying "Jewish conspiracy?”

The rest of your claims would be similarly scrutinized. It seems like you've embraced the same stereotype and generalization about Jews and (physical) Israel that terror groups like Hamas and even the Iranian Ayatollah perpetrate and hope to spread.

Please don't get me wrong. Someone could easily accuse me of wanting to believe differently from you due to any intrinsic biases that I might already have.

However, I would simply clarify that this isn't the case. Pleasing the Lord is the most important thing to me. Prior to coming to the Lord, I didn't believe any preachers. I had no denominational, sectarian or doctrinal loyalties. I wasn't raised in a church all my life either. Consequently, I was able to readily set aside the doctrinal persuasions of any of them and simply read all of God's Word for myself.

Even today, I still an not a big fan of books on doctrines. Instead, I prefer to read the Word and study it diligently to know the certainty of a matter (or if that certainty can be reached). With that in mind, I'm readily willing to admit when I don't know something for certain.

Throughout college and graduate school, I sat before many courses, professors and lecturers. I read my textbooks. I completed many projects and lab research. I passed my tests. I completed all of my necessary courses. I earned my degrees. Yet, in all of that time, I never trusted any professor, classroom lecture or even a textbook. This is because I'm keenly aware of the fallibility of human beings -- even if they earned advanced degrees. Why? "Let God be true though every one a liar (Romans 3:4 ESV)!"

In this broad sense, I think that the notion of grand "Jewish conspiracy" -- even if you truly believe it -- has little bearing on what we're discussing in regard to the gifts and calling of physical Israel. Clearly, I don't agree with either many of your claims or the assumption that they are evidence of some vast, underlying Jewish conspiracy.

And, of course, if you feel inclined to link these assertions to the topic, then you will need to provide evidence and sources to consider the merit of each of such claims. Otherwise, there is no reason to "deny it" or not -- or to point out that a correlation may be incorrectly ascertained and linked to some biased premise that you or others may have already aligned with.

We must strive to be pure when it comes to our speech (including "speech" that is a post that is typed and posted in a public Christian forum). The world is watching us. We should never fail to tell the truth and never fear refraining from posting conjecture because it might not be entirely accurate.

Yes of course 🙏🏻
I love Israel but I hate lies-

Just like I love America but I hate lies-

Just like I love the Church but I hate lies-

The lies are being spread while the truth is being suppressed.

Do you honestly believe that the msm somehow after Covid, Russiagate, riots, the southern border, Ukraine, etc… all of a sudden received the conviction of the Holy Spirit and are now telling the truth ??
If so, what evidence is there?
If not, why are we without investigation giving our support for the mass murder of children under the guise of righteousness?

(for me) this is a grave error and we will suffer the reproach of the Lord if we do not stop, turn, repent and seek His face -

Again, I do believe the Lord can use all things to the good, even that which was intended for evil, tho for us to receive the benefit we must meet the conditions, if we refuse to abide by the conditions (of the covenant) then we likewise forfeit the benefits. Is this not what the scriptures plainly teach?

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation.

Avoid Israel's Mistakes
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

All of my questions are easily answered/sourced with only a small amount of effort to search out a thing 🤷🏽”â™‚️
Which is why I "asked” these things rather than simply state them, my hope is that you/others might actually look into the matter and find the rather obvious answers. Personally this seems to be a better approach than stating things without engaging the persons conscience in an effort to resolve the questions.

Also, and I’m sorry to say, that like the people who practice deception, you too are applying a metric to me that you are not applying to yourself or your own claims.
This is not an accusation nor indictment that you are intentionally doing so, rather it is what you were taught to do and accepted the information you received as true. Nonetheless, confirmation bias applies to you as well brother as it does to us all. Likewise cognitive dissonance figures heavily into the equation, as it is a thing that requires faith to overcome.

Again, in a world where the scriptures say that the "god of this world” has deceived the whole world, why is it, (in your mind) a difficult thing to entertain that it is indeed literally true?

When you ask for "proof”, I would simply say humble yourself, pray, asking the Lord to give us light/understanding to know the truth as He sees it 🙏🏻
What other proof could suffice, what other proof would you accept if it didnt come from your personally preferred sources, which I would say have demonstrated their own corruption by their promotion of lies that contradict the written word of God ?

Also, there is no contradiction in my stating that "96% of media” is under the control of a particular group of persons, while later stating "over 90% of media”
Is controlled… 96>90 - 🤷🏽”â™‚️
I didn’t have my notes in front of me and knew (from my research) it was over 90% but couldn’t remember (first thing in the morning) wether it was 96 or 98 percent,… so for integrity’s sake, I lowered the number and included "over” so as to maintain consistency.

What I am sharing is for the purpose of edifying and equipping the body, that we not be taken captive by the lies of the enemy, which are as plentiful and sophisticated as data points in subatomic experiments.

Chris, this is not a new thing for me-
I have been reasonably consistent here on SI for years, saying we are at war (spiritually) calling the brethren to amor up (Christ) and fight !
This really got serious a few years ago (June 2020) when in His mercy the Lord broke me down to the very foundations of my belief and even smashing that, leaving me stripped bare and without anything left to cling to but Christ Jesus. It was unbearably painful, terrifying in fact to have Him reveal to me that everything I had ever taken comfort in (regarding this world) was a lie,… designed and purposed to corrupt us. He was so gentle and patient in how He
broke me down, yet it felt (at the time) as tho I was being ruthlessly treated. "Am I allowed nothing, even from my youth to be comforted in?” I asked in my spirit, and He replied by giving more light that I might see these things as He sees them, and in the light of His Holy presence they were all revealed as poisonous lies, even the cartoons that as a child I had not realized had been sources of comfort that I had unwittingly clung to, tho in the light of His presence they, along with everything else that wasn’t Him, were exposed as nothing more than dust and ash being consumed by His Holy fire .
While at the time, I felt greatly distressed even that I may lose my mind, questioning the logic of it all, yet there was a quiet assurance that I should yield to His hand, trusting Him. When it was finished, for days there was an absence of matter leaving me feeling tender and vulnerable as tho I had been spiritually sandblasted. While this was painful beyond words, it was the kindest and most gentle the Lord had ever dealt with me and He gained the ground in my heart that had once been reserved for a romanticized nostalgia of my youth. He has and continues to teach me, leads me (as I am willing) to see the world and His body as He sees it…. needless to say the Lord is greatly grieved and we are the source of much of that grief. Much of this grief due to the fact that we (by and large) are like the Israelites who were reluctant to leave the trappings of Egypt and follow the spirit of the living God into the unknown.
Today, many of not most Christians I know personally as well as those whom I see in society, have become slaves to the comfort and convenience of this world,… so much so that without realizing it we have oriented our lives around the obtaining and maintaining said comforts and conveniences to such an extent we will fight to keep them 😔

The Lord gifted me with the awareness, confirmed by scripture, that the only thing we have in this life that we can trust and therefore find true comfort (peace) is in His Lamb, Jesus of Nazareth, who takes away the sin of the world.
Anything, and I do mean anything, else is an affront to Him, His sacrifice, and will inevitably become a means of enslavement which is idolatry from which we all must repent or likewise perish.

This is my testimony to you regarding these things,… if there be a burden of proof then it falls to the Lord Himself, and you can simply ask Him yourself. If He offers you correction to my testimony then please share it here that I may repent, tho if not then you are free to accept or reject on your own terms.

What I am saying is that we are farrrr too comfortable in a world that hates our Lord. We even take comfort in and too often are in fellowship, even communion, with this world, yet Jesus says "no man can serve two masters” and yes (for me) this would apply to Israeli citizens serving in our government. The two are mutually exclusive by definition.

Personally I stand with/for Jesus and pray that Israel (ever how you define it) comes to faith and does also, for there truly is no other name under heaven by which men must be saved ✝️

Praising God for your testimony, dear brother!!
An eye opener!

Singleness of eye,… Jesus, only Jesus!!

Looking to Jesus, confirming it by His every Word,..

Seeking the kingdom of God , (The King, and all His righteous judgements in all maters/things),..and His righteousness,.. is the order of the Day.

…………
elizabeth

/If not, why are we without investigation giving our support for the mass murder of children under the guise of righteousness?/

This observation is simply not the truth. If you believe that, I'm sorry to say, it's you that have bought into a large lie of preposterous moral dimensions regarding Israel and the church. It's simply not true.

It's too bad many seem to forgotten what Hamas did just a few weeks ago to babies and children.

Any one can criticize Israel. Their own prophets did just that and did it better and more thoroughly than anyone before or since. The same prophets who described in clear detail also predicted with equal clarity and equal detail the restoration of Israel.

If the prophets of Israel had been blind, sentimental, and nationalistic and had overlooked the sins of their people then we could say that their promises of restoration were merely unrealistic, wishful thinking. But since the same prophets who promised restoration were the ones who uttered the indictments, there is no logic or consistency in endorsing the indictments and refusing the promises of restoration.

You wrote; "This observation is simply not the truth. If you believe that, I'm sorry to say, it's you that have bought into a large lie of preposterous moral dimensions regarding Israel and the church. It's simply not true.”

This observation was in regards to MSM not being objectively honest but selectively so…
Having said that, the vote was (if I remember correctly) 97-0 in the senate yesterday in favor of offering support for this war. Are you suggesting that they actually did a proper investigation of the implications of such a war?
That somehow the Holy Spirit convinced every single member that it was His will (righteousness) to vote as such ?
That 1000’s of children haven’t been murdered already including Christians?
That Christian Churches haven’t been bombed in Gaza?
That the security of boarders of both Ukraine and Israel haven’t received more concern than our own?
That L Graham isn’t calling for bombings in Iran ?
That A Blinken isn’t effectively serving in two governments simultaneously?
That we (Americans) aren’t being propagandized to go to war ?
That killing more people is gonna somehow fix everything?
That the Muslim world isn’t going to respond, with potentially disastrous consequences?
That this doesn’t benefit MSM profits ?
That this war doesn’t benefit both the Biden and Bibi’s administration, effectively rescuing them from failed and unwise policies by turning attention from their failures to the promotion of war of a common enemy?
That turning to Jesus isn’t the only hope for Israel?
That the church’s endorsement is somehow biblically justified?

So what I am asking you is, in short, what observation isn’t true and is a "lie preposterous moral dimensions”?
While that’s an easy thing to say, we may find it more difficult to defend in the current situation….
Again, I’m submitting to you that we are all being lied to by, primarily tho not exclusively, MSM and "the god of this world”, the "father of lies” and that just like us, Jesus is the only hope for Israel ✝️

Honestly David, how is killing more (mostly innocent children) people going to fix this ??
Is that the biblical prescription, is Jesus commanding the armies of Israel and the US to do these things ?
If He is not the source of this undertaking, how can it do anything but produce more chaos, death, destruction and confusion not only for Israel but for the world?

Came across this last night and this is very similar to my observations of the situation, so while I may be in the minority there are other more authoritative voices saying much the same as I am 🙏🏻
It’s about 15 mins or so-

https://gab.com/BeachMilk/posts/111288022243459737

Hi Robert,

14] I will put My Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken, and I will do it, declares the Lord.’”

Since this prophecy says that God will fill the people with His Spirit when He settles them in their land and the Jewish people were not filled with the Spirit in 1948, therefore this prophecy is not applicable to the return of the Jewish people to Palestine in 1948.

”­Hosea”¬ ”­6:1”­-”¬3”¬ ”­BSB”¬”¬”¬”¬”¬”¬”¬”¬”¬”¬”¬”¬”¬
[1] Come, let us return to the Lord. For He has torn us to pieces, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bind up our wounds. [2] After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His presence. [3] So let us know”” let us press on to know the Lord. As surely as the sun rises, He will appear; He will come to us like the rain, like the spring showers that water the earth.

The third day is the Day of Christ’s Resurrection.

Both Paul and Peter said that the prophets spoke about the sufferings of Christ and His resurrection from the dead.

Acts 26:22-23 ”“
So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; THAT THE CHRIST WAS TO SUFFER, AND THAT BY REASON OF HIS RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

1 Pet. 1:9-12 ”“
obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted THE SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST AND THE GLORIES TO FOLLOW. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven””things into which angels long to look.

…………I believe God is not finished with Israel and the 'church' does not replace them.

I agree with you. The Church does not replace Israel. The Church IS Israel. I have already given scripture to show this in earlier posts and in another thread https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=66088&forum=35 .

A nation had already been born in one day. It is God’s Israel, the Church, that was born of the Day of Pentecost.

1 Pet. 2:4-5,9-10 ”“
And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ…………… But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, A HOLY NATION, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

With the first coming of Christ, God’s Israel transitioned from "flesh” to "Spirit”.

As the Lord Jesus said:

John 4:23-24 ”“
But an hour is coming, AND NOW IS, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

And Jesus told Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

John 3:5 ”“
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Dry bones had already been made alive on the Day of Pentecost when Jewish believers who were dead in sin were filled with the Holy Spirit and made alive IN Christ. And Gentile believers, equally dead in sin, had also been made alive in Christ and added to God’s Israel, the Church. And God’s Israel, the Church, grew and continues to grow to be a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues (Rev. 7:9).

God’s Israel IN Christ is eternal as Christ is eternal and will never cease.

Jer. 31:35-37 ”“
Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The Lord of hosts is His name:
"If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the Lord,
"Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
Thus says the Lord,
"If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the Lord.

This prophecy was written in connection with the New Covenant (read preceding verses). It has already been fulfilled as the New Covenant was ushered in by the Lord Jesus when He died and rose again 2000 years ago.

Matt. 26:28 ”“
And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

The beneficiaries of the New Covenant are all believers in Christ (I have given scripture to show this in an earlier post). It is the Church, God’s Israel, that is eternal and will never cease.

--------------------
It is widely taught that one day in the future all the Jewish people would suddenly and in a day accept Christ as their Saviour. If that happens, well and good. They would then join all Christians, Jew and Gentiles, in the body of Christ AND HAVE A CITIZENSHIP IN HEAVEN AND NOT ON EARTH (PHIL. 3:20).
--------------------

THE LAND: GODS REST

The Old Testament contains many shadows of which Christ is the truth and substance.

The "LAND” is a figure of GOD’S REST.

Compare Num 14:22-24 with Heb. 3:17-19 and Ps. 95:11:--

Num 14:22-24 ”“
Surely all the men who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, shall by no means see the LAND which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who spurned Me see it. But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.

Heb. 3:17-19 --
And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter HIS REST, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Ps. 95:11 ”“
"For forty years I loathed that generation,
And said they are a people who err in their heart,
And they do not know My ways.
11 "Therefore I swore in My anger,
Truly they shall not enter into MY REST.”

The people who could not enter the "LAND” in Num. 14:23 were the same people that Heb. 3:18 and Ps. 95:11 say could not enter "GOD’S REST”. The "land” is therefore synonymous with GOD’S REST.

Joshua brought the children of Israel into the ALL the land God that had promised Abraham.

Joshua 21:43-45 ”“
So the Lord gave Israel ALL the LAND which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. And the Lord gave them REST on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the Lord gave all their enemies into their hand. NOT ONE OF THE GOOD PROMISES WHICH THE LORD HAD MADE TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL FAILED; ALL CAME TO PASS.

Joshua brought them into the land of Canaan, into REST.

After Joshua died, in the time of the Judges, whenever the people turned away from God and did evil, the land would fall into enemy hands. But whenever they cried to the Lord, the Lord delivered them, and the land had REST.

Judges 3:9-11 ”“
But when the people of Israel cried out to the Lord, the Lord raised up a deliverer for the people of Israel, who saved them, Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother…………So the land had REST forty years.

Judges 3:15,30 ”“
Then the people of Israel cried out to the Lord, and the Lord raised up for them a deliverer, Ehud, the son of Gera, the Benjaminite, a left-handed man………… So Moab was subdued that day under the hand of Israel. And the land had REST for eighty years.

When the enemies were defeated when Deborah was judge:

Judges 5:31 ”“
And the land had REST for forty years.

After Gideon defeated the enemies:

Judges 8:28 ”“
And the land had REST forty years in the days of Gideon.

It was all about REST. It was REST in the land.

--------------------
A Question:
The Jewish people returned to the present land of Israel in 1948. From the very day of their return until today, there has been no "REST” for them. Can the land be God’s promised land when there is NO REST in the land?
--------------------

We are told in Joshua 21:43 that "the Lord gave Israel ALL the LAND which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it.” And they had REST (verse 44).

Yet Heb. 4:8 says that Joshua did not give them rest.

Joshua certainly gave them rest but the rest in earthly Canaan was not the true rest God has for His people.

A better and heavenly rest is promised to believers in the gospel.

Just as Abraham by faith "lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land………for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God (Heb. 11:9-10)”…………and "desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one (Heb.11:16)”, so those of faith who are the sons of Abraham (Gal. 3:7) will enter the true and heavenly rest and not the rest in Canaan that Joshua brought the people into.

CHRIST is the believer’s "land” of rest.

The Lord Jesus says, "Come to ME, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you REST” (Matt. 11:28).

The believer’s rest in Christ far surpasses the rest in Canaan that Joshua gave the people.

--------------------
It is widely taught that one day in the future, ALL the Jewish people will accept the Gospel and be saved in a day. If that happens, well and good. But if that happens, their rest, as believers, WOULD NOT BE REST IN THE EARTHLY LAND OF CANAAN. It will be the BELIEVER'S REST IN CHRIST.
--------------------

Jade,

I wanted to point out that yours are the same views as modern supersessionism, which is still the same teachings just absent of direct violent threats against Jews. The spiritualizing of everything regarding the physical return of Christ to set up a physical kingdom and restore the Jews to physical Israel renders most of the Bible unintelligible and makes God out to be a being who makes empty promises (fulfilling promises in ways that are not explicitly promised is to not fulfill the promise ie. If I promise my son a 2024 truck and buy him a 2024 sports car; the sports car may be better and more expensive, but still not a fulfillment of the promise).

Just a thought.

/This observation was in regards to MSM not being objectively honest but selectively so…/

It doesn't read that way. Following the criticism of the msm, then comes your accusation against the church and its supposed support for the murder of children etc. without any real investigation.

You haven't said a word about the recent atrocities of Hamas. Have you forgotten so soon? You can't understand a bit why those on the receiving end of the Hamas assault have reacted like they have? Israel abandoned Gaza in 2006 and withdrew all of its soldiers. And sent aid to Gaza to help it prosper and rule their own affairs.There is not a single Jew living in Gaza today. After Israel left, the Palestinian people in Gaza elected Hamas to lead them. And look what Israel received from Hamas.

But you seem to have become focused on the sins of Israel like much of the rest of the world. This type of thinking is a main part of the reason there has been a long historical rift between the Jews and the church. They simply do not understand such thinking. That comes from my personal experience. I have been among them and listened to them

What do you think "from the mountains to the sea" means? Do you think Israel is not aware that Hamas wants more than just get some land back. Israel knows they are dedicated to the genocide of the Jewish people down to the last man. It's about land but much more than land.

Israel is far from perfect and their lack of faith in their true Messiah is why they are not home free. YET. The prophets spoke profusely of a latter day controversy surrounding a people only recently regathered to the land. No one likes the implications of this but wars and desolations are determined until the end. Wars and rumors of wars. In my opinion, the present latter day "controversy of Zion" is th e issue which will surround the end of the age. It's not going away and is going to grow larger and more intense and threaten world peace even greater than it presently is. Who is the rightful owner of the land, and especially, who is the rightful owner of Jerusalem will be the epicenter of the rising storm long prophesied. Those who mock the study of escahtology can remain in indifference to the Hebrew prophets and Jesus' eschatological pronouncements if they desire, but that attitude and practice comes with a cost. If you concentrate on events you have lost your focus on Jesus you always hear when Jesus Himself is at he center of last things.

"From one man God made every nation of men, and determined that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live" (Acts 17:26).

It's not an accident of history that Israel now occupies the borders that it does. God knew that bringing them back would not bring peace but you can't find fault with Him. He can't be accused of unrighteousness. He knows Israel's main problem is a problem of the heart and in His set time He is going to repair this inner defect of sin by bringing them into the kingdom oF God through the new birth. They certainly won't deserve it but none of us did. Israel's pride will be shattered before it's over and they will be complelled to come to God's table by faith just like everyone else.

If we honor God in a vertical manner we also need to honor God on a horizonatal level. On the horizontal level, we need acknowledge the borders God has set for each nation and people. When all sides acknowledge God's unique claim on this land, then peace will come under the righteous reign of Christ. It sounds largely prideful of me, but If I were you, I would study again the copious prophecies the Hebrew prophets made regarding Israel's eventual restoration. What we regretfully are seeing now is not the end. It's a horrid situation beyond speaking but the working out of this long controversy has never been clean and sterile. It hurts. It hurts much for all sides.

Thank you. Blessings.

ESchaible

Please do not scare me with "modern supersessionism", whatever that is.

Let us forsake all human reasoning and human wisdom and return to Paul's interpretation of OT prophecies (which is by the revelation of the Holy Spirit) and to the purity of the Gospel that he preached.

If "modern supersessionism", whatever that is, says what Paul says which is not what you say, then you will have to reconsider what you say.

38 "The days are coming,” declares the Lord, "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.” (Jeremiah 31:38-40)

Many OT prophecies refer to Jeus. No problem at all with that. But how do prophecies like this refer specifically to Jesus or supposedly the rest that all Christians undergo in Christ? Is that really what the prophet meant? How does Christ become the above?

Where in the NT did Paul preach the return of the Jews to Palestine?

//Many OT prophecies refer to Jeus. No problem at all with that. But how do prophecies like this refer specifically to Jesus or supposedly the rest that all Christians undergo in Christ? Is that really what the prophet meant? How does Christ become the above? //

"The rebuilding of Jerusalem which was now in ruins, and the enlargement and establishment of that, shall be an earnest of these great things that God will do for the gospel church, the heavenly Jerusalem, v. 38-40. The days will come, though they may be long in coming, when,
1. Jerusalem shall be entirely built again, as large as ever it was; the dimensions are here exactly described by the places through which the circumference passed, and no doubt the wall which Nehemiah built, and which, the more punctually to fulfil the prophecy, began about the tower of Hananeel, here mentioned (Neh. 3:1), enclosed as much ground as is here intended, though we cannot certainly determine the places here called the gate of the corner, the hill Gareb, etc.
2. When built it shall be consecrated to God and to his service. It shall be built to the Lord (v. 38), and even the suburbs and fields adjacent shall be holy unto the Lord. It shall not be polluted with idols as formerly, but God shall be praised and honoured there; the whole city shall be as it were one temple, one holy place, as the new Jerusalem is, which therefore has no temple, because it is all temple.
3. Being thus built by virtue of the promise of God, it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down, any more for ever; that is, it shall continue very long, the time of the new city from the return to its last destruction being fully as long as that of the old from David to the captivity. But this promise was to have its full accomplishment in the gospel church, which, as it is the spiritual Israel, and therefore God will not cast it off, so it is the holy city, and therefore all the powers of men shall not pluck it up, nor throw it down. It may lie waste for a time, as Jerusalem did, but shall recover itself, shall weather the storm and gain its point, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew Henry’s Commentary on Jeremiah

I understand you saying "it doesn’t read that way”, … agreed and I will make a conscious effort to keep my margins clean and well delineated🙏🏻

1. I haven’t mentioned the acts of terror by Hamas because the thread isn’t about lamenting the acts of terrorism … unless I suppose it’s to be used to bolster justification for the war?
Obviously I’m not forgetting the heinous crimes committed by the terrorist against the people of Israel, (again) where I have close personal friends living today. As far as I know, I don’t personally know a soul living in Palestine- so my default position is to side with Israel, which I do. Having said this I can love and grieve with my friends and their countrymen while at the same time not wanting them to make, what I believe, great mistakes regarding their response, which will (in my estimation) foment a very unstable situation for themselves in the long run.
2. I am critical of Israel and the church because we/they bear the name of the God of the Bible and as such have hyper important consequences of bringing reproach upon His name. If we, who bear His name, blaspheme His name among the nations, will we not suffer the reproach of the Lord? Facing the wrath of God which comes upon the children of disobedience?
3. You stated there is no Israelis living in Gaza… this bbc article from earlier this year reported quite the opposite- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65024114
4. My focus on "this sins of Israel” as you say, is (for me) not focusing on their sins, rather on their potential missteps regarding their responses. Again, as I’ve previously stated at least twice, I believe Israel is being "set up”as it were, and not in a good way. Nonetheless I have also stated previously, that I believe the Lord can and will use even that to the good, albeit with much suffering that can otherwise be avoided.
5. I do not mock the study of eschatology, yet as I’ve previously stated, I do not find that what we presently call Israel is of the Lord Jesus, rather is of the lord Rothschild/Balfour agreement which introduced the plan. I cannot find any evidence that the Rothschilds nor the British empire at the time, were under the directives of the Lord Jesus. This is not in any way an indictment against the people of Israel or Jewish persons in general, rather it is an indictment against the "principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Likewise I do not find that the UN resolution/declaration that formed the present state of what we call Israel was under the directives of the Lord Jesus at the time of said declaration/establishing of present day Israel.
6. I agree that we should honor God first vertically and then horizontally to the world ✝️ 🙏🏻
7. I believe in order to honor the Holy one of Israel we must humble ourselves and act in faith towards Him,… placing our dependence on Him and not on our/Israel’s military strength. This will only lead to more death and destruction, ultimately making Israel less safe/secure. Also this would inevitably lead to the people of Israel finding themselves dependent on their military technology for their deliverance and not the God that loves them and wants to restore them unto Himself through the cross of their savior, Jesus of Nazareth.
8. There is an obvious caveat to all of this, namely that Israel largely remains unsaved and unregenerate, as such it would be foolish to assume that they had spiritual light wherewith to navigate these dangerous waters, for we know Jesus is the true light. Yet we have not only the true light, Christ in us, but we also have the weight of responsibility to represent Him accurately not only to the world but especially to Israel., else how can our faith in "their God” make them jealous? [presently we seem to have more faith in Israel than in Jesus]-
9. We have a wonderful opportunity to minister the gospel of the Kingdom of God to Israel , yet we seem to be promoting the Kingdom of Israel without Christ as its Head,… this will never work but it will produce fruit that is nigh unto cursing 🤷🏽”â™‚️
10. Lastly, we "stand” with Christ Jesus (not with Israel or Palestine) and everyone is invited to come a kiss the Son lest He be angry😇 remember He is not a respecter of persons and in Him there is neither Greek nor Jew, Scythian nor barbarian -

The Reign of the LORD'S Anointed.
(Acts 4:23-31”Š)
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

If Israel is to be saved/restored, how can this happen without them putting their trust in His anointed one ✝️ for it is the only name under heaven by which men (including Jews/Israel) must be saved.

/Where in the NT did Paul preach the return of the Jews to Palestine?/

Where in the NT does it say the Lord’s feet, Job’s Redeemer (Job 16:25-27) will stand on the Mount of Olives and that the mountain will split at the DOL when "all the saints will come with Him”? (Zech 14:1-5).

So if it's not in the NT, it can’t be true! Is that what we’re saying? What difference could it possibly make what the OT says?

Besides, Jesus and Paul DID preach that His covenant "with THEM” would be fulfilled at the Lord’s return when they will see Him and repent (Zech 12:10; Mt 23:39; Acts 3:21; Ro 11:25-29; Rev 1:7).

The whole battle of the endtime begins in Judea! (Mt 24:15-16; Rev 16:14-17). That’s the controversy over the Land.

Leviticus 26:42: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land!!!

Thanks JFW. I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I've got a lot to do on my day off.

Jade,

Supersessionism = replacement theology, the agenda behind every major act of Jewish slaughter in recent history (Hitler himself quoted Luther and his lengthy treatise about how to systematically kill Jews, and other theologians).

Replacement theology = the church replaces physical Jacob/Israel and his descendants (saying the church is Israel is exactly the same as saying it replaces Israel at least in the wider array of your views, so i prefer to not go down that road). And Israel in this context is not political Israel, but the physical descendants of Jacob.

No matter the disguise, it will always be the same agenda that is propagated by the world system, Jewish annihilation.

I prefer not to quibble over braches when the root of the matter is so diametrically opposed. You can be of Paul, that is completely your decision. Debate over Pauls interpretations is futile, when a clear and literal reading of Romans gives us everything we need (I have outlined this numerous times in multiple threads).

The fact still remains, the views you are trying to promote make God a giver of empty promises, and render much of the Bible as either defunct, or unintelligible.

doc wrote:
"On the horizontal level, we need acknowledge the borders God has set for each nation and people. When all sides acknowledge God's unique claim on this land, then peace will come under the righteous reign of Christ."

This is not found in Scripture.
If it is a condition that "all sides acknowledge God's unique claim on this land" then we will never see peace.
When God made promisses to Abram He didn't add any such conditions.
We can only serve Christ and not have 2 masters.

Here is my basic and simplified view of the endtime:
We are now on the road to Armegeddon, WWIII or whatever you want to call it.
Then the Lord will return, there will be resurrections, judgemets.

The Lord HIMSELF will fulfill all the promisses He made .
No need anymore for any fighting etc.
Jesus will be King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Most important: in the meantime we should serve Him, and Him alone, while we still can !

Just adding my thoughts, not getting into long debates.

Markus

ESchaible

Have you even read the posts I posted about God's Israel and with an open mind?

Paul's explanation of God's Israel is clear as day obscured only by man's own theology and closed mind.

Every promise of God is in our Lord Jesus Christ!

And, the Lord Jesus Christ alone is the centrepiece and GOOD NEWS of the whole Bible!

Our hope is IN CHRIST alone and nothing else.

So why did the Jews persecute Paul and arrested him for the "hope of Israel"? Obviously, there was a huge difference between the hope of the Jewish people and the hope of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God that Paul preached.

We will never agree as you are set in your beliefs so it is futile to discuss further.

Nothing more to be said. Just, wait and see.

/doc wrote:
"On the horizontal level, we need acknowledge the borders God has set for each nation and people. When all sides acknowledge God's unique claim on this land, then peace will come under the righteous reign of Christ."

This is not found in Scripture.
If it is a condition that "all sides acknowledge God's unique claim on this land" then we will never see peace.
When God made promisses to Abram He didn't add any such conditions./

Quoting,

"God requires from us two dimensions of love ”“ one vertical and one horizontal. The vertical dimension is love for God; the horizontal dimension is love for our fellow human beings. But the vertical dimension is primary; the horizontal is secondary.

Furthermore, the horizontal relationship is dependent upon the vertical. If we do not love God above all else, our love for our fellow man can never be all that God requires.

The same is true in respect of justice. From the biblical perspective, there are two dimensions to justice: vertical and horizontal. The vertical dimension defines the claims that God has, as Creator, upon the whole human race. The horizontal deals with the claims that men have on their fellow men.

It is typical of the secular approach to these issues that the vertical dimensions of justice is often completely ignored. Unfortunately, many Christians have been influenced by this secular way of thinking. Nevertheless, true justice requires that we first acknowledge the claims that God has on all men, and only after that the claims that we have on our fellow men, or that they have on us.

As we already have seen, one primary claim that God, as Creator, has on all nations is to determine the areas which He has allowed each of them to inhabit (Acts 17:26). As long as men refuse to acknowledge that just claim of God upon them, they will never know true justice or true peace.

In Acts 17:31, speaking to a Gentile audience in Athens, Paul declared that the resurrection of Jesus from the dead marked Him out as God’s appointed judge and ruler, to whom all men will give account:

"For He (God) has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the man He has appointed. He has given proof to this by raising Him from the dead.”

A former professor of history at Cambridge University once remarked: ‘The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the best attested facts of human history.” Because God has thus attested Jesus, He requires that all men submit themselves to His authority. That is the primary, vertical dimension of justice. When the people of the Middle East have acknowledged God’s claim upon their submission to Jesus, the way will be opened for them to achieve just peace with each other. In the meanwhile, political negotiations can produce at best a temporary, superficial peace. True justice and lasting peace, however, will not come to the Middle East until Messiah reigns."

(From "The Destiny of Israel and the Church" - Derek Prince)

/We can only serve Christ and not have 2 masters./

??? Is that directed at me? If so, why?

/Here is my basic and simplified view of the endtime:
We are now on the road to Armegeddon, WWIII or whatever you want to call it.
Then the Lord will return, there will be resurrections, judgemets./

Armageddon or Meggido is in Israel.

/The Lord HIMSELF will fulfill all the promisses He made .
No need anymore for any fighting etc.
Jesus will be King of Kings and Lord of Lords/

Yes. Absolutely. But we aren't there yet.

/Most important: in the meantime we should serve Him, and Him alone, while we still can!/

That goes without saying. It is a given. You often add that or something similiar and it comes across as a type of gig. Looking into eschatology and studying the prophets anew doesn't mean a person is not serving Christ alone. The last things are about how Christ will put the finishing touches on what He began at His first coming. It's every bit about Him. I agree we should always put Him first. It goes without saying.

Jade,

I haven't developed my views concerning these things from men, and that is just the go to accusation and plea to manipulate people from their own views to our own views. If I have to read Paul, Jeremiah, Amos, or any other Biblical writer with the qualification of an "open mind" in order to see your views there, and can't just rely on my Fathers ability to say what He means, than well, I think you know where I land on who's views I will believe.

Stating obvious fact concerning Jesus doesn't change anything, or make me shy away from anything I said in some fear of sounding like I don't believe in the centrality of Jesus in all of the Fathers dealings, or His centrality in the ministry of Holy Spirit on earth. I don't need to change the promises of scripture in order to try and glorify Jesus, He is already glorified and has been for 2000 years.

The point is, your views make God's promises of none effect, and render the prophetic scriptures pointless, in fact, they render prophecy in general pointless, why didn't God just say what He meant in the first place? Unless of course He did, but it seems to unspiritual to believe it, and we have to intellectually juggle every prophecy and promise in a way that fits our presuppositions...

Just some thoughts.

ESchaible

You are free to hold on to your own view.

No further comment.

It has been hard as I wanted to answer the guy that posed the many questions that related to the talmud as I have studied this issue and I am against orthodox judaism as I have personally evangelised in Stamford Hill in an orthodox jewish area where jews will not even look at you and rip up your tracts

There are channels such as know more news that are probalamatic as they despise christians aswell as jews

When i started this post I was more doing this from a biblical persective as I have friends in Israel both in places like Jersualem and in Tiberius, I have friends in there who dislike the israel government but are in the idf as they are tour guides but when we have in London people chanting out from the river to the sea palastine will be free. Basically bellieving in the annhilation of israel and if we as christians do not think the muslims will stop with the Jews you will be forgiven as there are some terrible verses in the quran such as surah 9

Zechariah 2:8
For thus says the Lord of hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye

The quran does not one time mention Jerusalem Gaza or even that area

Genesis 10:19
And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; then as you go toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha.

Deuteronomy 2:23
And the Avim, who dwelt in villages as far as Gaza””the Caphtorim, who came from Caphtor, destroyed them and dwelt in their place.)

Joshua 10:41
And Joshua conquered them from Kadesh Barnea as far as Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even as far as Gibeon.

Joshua 11:22
None of the Anakim were left in the land of the children of Israel; they remained only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod.

Joshua 15:47
Ashdod with its towns and villages, Gaza with its towns and villages””as far as the Brook of Egypt and the Great Sea with its coastline.

Judges 1:18
Also Judah took Gaza with its territory, Ashkelon with its territory, and Ekron with its territory.

Judges 6:4
Then they would encamp against them and destroy the produce of the earth as far as Gaza, and leave no sustenance for Israel, neither sheep nor ox nor donkey.

Judges 16:1
Samson and Delilah
Now Samson went to Gaza and saw a harlot there, and went in to her.

Judges 16:21
Then the Philistines took him and put out his eyes, and brought him down to Gaza. They bound him with bronze fetters, and he became a grinder in the prison.

1 Samuel 6:17
These are the golden tumors which the Philistines returned as a trespass offering to the Lord: one for Ashdod, one for Gaza, one for Ashkelon, one for Gath, one for Ekron;

1 Kings 4:24
For he had dominion over all the region on this side of the River from Tiphsah even to Gaza, namely over all the kings on this side of the River; and he had peace on every side all around him.

2 Kings 18:8
He subdued the Philistines, as far as Gaza and its territory, from watchtower to fortified city.

Jeremiah 25:20
all the mixed multitude, all the kings of the land of Uz, all the kings of the land of the Philistines (namely, Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod);

Jeremiah 47:1
Judgment on Philistia
The word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet against the Philistines, before Pharaoh attacked Gaza.

Jeremiah 47:5
Baldness has come upon Gaza, Ashkelon is cut off With the remnant of their valley. How long will you cut yourself?

Amos 1:6
Thus says the Lord: "For three transgressions of Gaza, and for four, I will not turn away its punishment, Because they took captive the whole captivity To deliver them up to Edom.

Amos 1:7
But I will send a fire upon the wall of Gaza, Which shall devour its palaces.

Zephaniah 2:4
Judgment on Nations
For Gaza shall be forsaken, And Ashkelon desolate; They shall drive out Ashdod at noonday, And Ekron shall be uprooted.

Zechariah 9:5
Ashkelon shall see it and fear; Gaza also shall be very sorrowful; And Ekron, for He dried up her expectation. The king shall perish from Gaza, And Ashkelon shall not be inhabited.

Acts 8:26
Christ Is Preached to an Ethiopian
Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, "Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert.

There are numerous verses that mention Gaza in the scriptures.

Mark my words as there is no link between the Philistines and the current Palestines
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/who-were-philistines-where-did-they-come-from/

The archaology states that the original Philistine came from Greece and have no link to the Palestines

The other misnomer is about the whole two state solution
With the original balfour decleration , they divided up the Middle east

Balfour Declaration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

Treaty of Sèvres (1920): The Treaty of Sèvres further outlined the post-World War I settlement and the division of former Ottoman territories. It confirmed the allocation of the territories as decided in the San Remo Conference, and it included provisions regarding the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and the Arab Emirate in Transjordan.

So originally the Arabs where given the land of Jordan under an original two state solution. The problem is the Arabs wanted more land, they want the whole of israel

This is why I dont want england to become a islamic state like Pakistan nor do I want israel.

Gaza was created under the Oslo peace accords
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

George W bush created the peace accords in which there was hurracane katrina which destroyed america and the same day jews which live in gaza had to move elsewhere

So before 2005 there was no rockets firing over from Gaza as it did belong to Israel but no it is underneath Arab control

If we had rockets firing over from say Wales we would do something about it as if mexico or canada started firing rockets into america. America is not going to sit back at let it happen

Ezekiel 36:24-28 (Old Testament - Hebrew Bible):
"For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

Isaiah 11:12 (Old Testament - Hebrew Bible):
"He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."

Jeremiah 29:14 (Old Testament - Hebrew Bible):
"I will be found by you," declares the Lord, "and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you," declares the Lord, "and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile

The bible promises the return of jews to israel

I also want to bring up the examples of the rothschilds and the other things like that as I am against the verses in the talmud which denigrate jesus and things such as the noahide laws.

As a christian I cannot help but love the bible and as 90 percent of the bible happens in Israel it makes more sense

My question to those that question the legitimacy of Israel as a nation state:

If you call Israel illegitimate, then what about USA or Canada or Australia or UK or any other nation?

They had been subject to programs throughout the centuries and the Holocaust so why shouldn't they have a place they can call their own just as your nation?

The scripture evidence of the Jew's return to their land prior to their spiritual restoration is overwhelming. It is prophecy fulfilled before our eyes.

For the remaining Bible prophecies to be fulfilled the Jews must have returned to their land. The locus of the events that have to take place soon will be Israel and the nations.
Satan hates that and it again became evident in yesterday's shameless UN resolution.

Thankfully a number of nations stood with Israel.

While you may not have been referring to my previous posts regarding present day Israel vs Biblical Israel, there is equally a possibility you were so I will offer my understanding in hopes it might serve to clarify (at least) my understanding.

Israel as a state/nation is legitimate from a legal agreement standpoint but that doesn’t make it something that the God of Israel in the Bible did Himself for the purpose of restoring them unto Himself- which will only occur through the cross of Christ ✝️ Having said this, I do believe that He can use it to the good and ultimately for His purposes as He has sovereign authority because the whole earth and everything in it is His.

Regarding the OT prophecies concerning Israel being restored,… didn't that happen?
Likewise the OT prophesies concerning the promised messiah,… didn’t that happen?

TMK started another thread with a transcript that explains the language used in the OT concerning some of the hyperbolic statements, it may help serve to better understanding the context in which these things will occur -

BranchinVINE<

I think the likely reason that they arrested Paul was because he proclaimed that salvation came through faith alone and not through performing the works of the law. Maybe also his view that temple sacrifices were vain now that Jesus had come and paid for sins once for all. Inmny opinion, this does nothing to nullify or cancel the totality of the promises made to Abraham.

Thank you.

Peace.

/Israel as a state/nation is legitimate from a legal agreement standpoint but that doesn’t make it something that the God of Israel in the Bible did Himself for the purpose of restoring them unto Himself- which will only occur through the cross of Christ ✝️ Having said this, I do believe that He can use it to the good and ultimately for His purposes as He has sovereign authority because the whole earth and everything in it is His.

Regarding the OT prophecies concerning Israel being restored,… didn't that happen?/

Can't God use events that appear seculalr and human in origin to bring about His will? The decree of Cyrus the pagan king comes to mind. There was a required census mandated by secular rullers that caused Joseph to be in Bethlehmen thus fulfilling prophecy as to where Christ would be born. And other examples. So what if God used supposedly secular rulers and movements to bring Isarel back? The result is the same - He gets His will. Many prophecies speak of them returning first in unbelief before the spiritual rebirth of the nation.

I may not be understanding what you wrote, but it seems contradictory. But I may be wrong. You say they will only be truly restored in Christ and the cross. True - absolutely. But you say concerning them being restored - didn't that happen? No, I'm not aware they trhey have been restored yet through the cross of Christ.

Meanwhile, why does the end-time scenario require a Jewish presence in the land to be fulfilled?

You made a post somewhere regarding things I said about no Jews presently live in Gaza etc. You provided a link etc. and made several other points. I was going to reply but can't find the post. I know it's there but I can't locate it among the many posts. Sorry 'bout that.

Yes it is entirely possible that the Lord can use secular (even evil) things to the good, tho when He is the author of it as in the case you sites Cyrus, it was obvious that the Lord was directing these events to a specific end, ie the prophecy Isaiah 45(if I remember correctly)-

When asking "didn’t that happen?” regarding Israel being given the promised land, it was a rhetorical reference to the historical fact they received the land but subsequently rejected their Messiah hence Romans 11… but that is to be viewed in the context of Romans 9, no?

Regarding Israel figuring into the "end times” -
Interestingly "Israel” as a state doesn’t appear in scripture (that I’ve found) rather it’s primarily "Jerusalem” specifically and/or "the House of Israel” "House of Judah”. This is key to laying hold of what the scriptures actually say.

Yes there are allot of posts to sort through, I just searched "Israelis living in Gaza” and pulled one of the top few hits.

One of my best friends, a secular Jewish Israeli, got called up to serve and we got to talk in person yesterday. It was our warmest embrace to date, we held each other tightly and for an extended period (publicly)knowing the dangers and that we may never see each other again in this life…. He would already be there but the flights are limited so he’s scheduled to be on the ground in his unit next week. One of the Israelis that was of the 200 kidnapped is a close friend of his, even in his unit, and considering he doesn’t hold a foreign passport and is a male…. is presumed dead already-
Understandably, my friend is very anxious to be present and fight for his family, friends and home.
We discussed the situation, the nuance and potential for this to spread far beyond the region, along with a host of scenarios as well as the historical significance of the peace agreement between Israel and Saudi Arabia and the changes it would bring to the power structure of the entire region.

Again, I love Israel and particularly Hebrew culture, I mentioned this thread and the talk of antisemitism and he was astonished that someone might suggest that of me, siting several examples of my positions regarding Israel and Jewish people in general, to which I replied that the persons saying such didn’t know me personally but were basing that off my criticisms. He, rather emotionally, tell them to call me !

The point I was hoping to bring light to in this thread is that we (western Christians) tend to view Israel in biblical terms and while that’s our hope, it’s not the current reality (far as I can find). We view Jews and Muslims as monolithic singularities which simply isn’t the case, as they are both deeply divided.
Likewise there are many Jewish persons who act in ways contrary to scripture but also in regards to our pre-established laws, where obvious efforts have been made to change laws in each state to be more favorable to the secular state of Israel. (The Iranians have/are doing the same) We as Christians, should be clear in pointing out that we stand with Jesus, not with a secular state. I’ve seen videos and photos of church services where the cross was covered with Israeli flags 😳…. This is idolatry and it is being perpetuated by means of manipulation, coercion, deceit (witchcraft) much like in the thread about "covens”.
My concern (if it’s not obvious) is that the church will be refocused on Israel and not on Christ, fitting the present situation into a well intended "end times” scenario where we effectively give our (the churches) approval for Israel to do whatever is necessary to achieve their secular ends. From my understanding this will only serve to heap condemnation upon themselves as well as the church, ultimately bringing reproach on the name of Jesus.
Having said this, I do believe we have a responsibility to minister Christ and Him crucified to both Jews and Muslims and that also believe the Lord will use these times to the good, but that doesn’t make it His will. We (the church) should be able to expose the dark objectives of the secular elements while highlighting the spiritual implications of both Israel and its Arab neighbors.
We are n a spiritual war that has spilled over into the political sphere and has almost unimaginable consequences in both contexts, as such we would do well to not lean on our own understanding but seek the kingdom of God, not being tricked into seeking the kingdom of Israel believing somehow they are the same 🤷🏽”â™‚️
According to scripture, God isn’t finished with Israel, but we play a huge part in His plan to bring them to Christ, and that will only happen if we are faithful to Christ even and especially when our faith puts us at odds with the aims of secular Israel. 🙏🏻✝️

doc
Why is it so important to you to "correctly" understand the prophecies and the situation concerning Israel ?

to add to my previous post:
"When all sides acknowledge God's unique claim on this land, then peace will come"
I believe we will never see that "all sides acknowledge God's unique claim on this land"
I believe that only Christ Himself can and WILL bring peace on this earth.
We should proclaim that peace on this earth can not be achieved with hatred and carnal weapons, only through Christ

Some more thoughts:
Here is an interesting view from an ISRAELI who has seen it all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5IVJ-akqfc

What should the position of the Church be.
The purpose of the Church has not changed since the beginning 2000 years ago:
To witness for Christ, to go and preach the Gospel and make disciples

We now see horrific war scenes on the news.
If we are only concerned that we have the "correct" prophetic views about the situation then I believe we don't understand our purpose and the purpose of the church anymore.

Of course it is significant what has been happening in the ME in the last 100 years or so.
I might add some more comments a bit later
Very concerned!
Oh come Lord Jesus, come quickly

Markus

Markus,

Just a thought, but an incorrect eschatology can have detrimental effects on someones faith, so I think a proper importance needs to be given to understanding, at least generally, the events surrounding Christ return.

If Jesus said nothing about His return, we have grounds to say we need not understand; but He said much.

Here is a correct eschatology from God and last days instruction from God for the saints that likewise corresponds with God's definition of acceptable faith for the true saint facing persecution and suffering :

Eschatology of God to His Bride:

Hebrews 12:
18 For you have not come to what could be touched, to a blazing fire, to darkness, gloom, and storm, 19 to the blast of a trumpet, and the sound of words. Those who heard it begged that not another word be spoken to them, 20 for they could not bear what was commanded: If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.[h] 21 The appearance was so terrifying that Moses said, I am trembling with fear.[i] 22 INSTEAD, YOU HAVE COME to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God (the heavenly Jerusalem), to myriads of angels, a festive gathering, 23 to the assembly of the firstborn whose names have been written[j] in heaven, to a Judge, who is God of all, to the spirits of righteous people made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which says better things than the blood of Abel.

25 See to it that you do not reject the one who speaks. For if they did not escape when they rejected him who warned them on earth, even less will we if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven. 26 His voice shook the earth at that time, but now he has promised, Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.[k] 27 This expression, "Yet once more,” indicates the removal of what can be shaken””that is, created things””so that what is not shaken might remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful. By it, we may serve God acceptably, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Instruction and Warning for the Saint in the midst of the things of earth shaking:

12 Therefore, since we also have such a large cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us lay aside every hindrance and the sin that so easily ensnares us. Let us run with endurance the race that lies before us, 2 keeping our eyes on Jesus,[a] the pioneer and perfecter[b] of our faith. For the joy that lay before him,[c] he endured the cross, despising the shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him who endured such hostility from sinners against himself, so that you won’t grow weary and give up. 4 In struggling against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons:

My son, do not take the Lord’s discipline lightly
or lose heart when you are reproved by him,
6 for the Lord disciplines the one he loves
and punishes every son he receives.[d]

7 Endure suffering as discipline: God is dealing with you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline””which all receive[e]””then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had human fathers discipline us, and we respected them. Shouldn’t we submit even more to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time based on what seemed good to them, but he does it for our benefit, so that we can share his holiness. 11 No discipline seems enjoyable at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore, strengthen your tired hands and weakened knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated[f] but healed instead.

Warning against Rejecting God’s Grace and instruction for last day living :

Hebrews 12
14 Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness””without it no one will see the Lord. 15 Make sure that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no root of bitterness springs up, causing trouble and defiling many. 16 And make sure that there isn’t any immoral[g] or irreverent person like Esau, who sold his birthright in exchange for a single meal. 17 For you know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, even though he sought it with tears, because he didn’t find any opportunity for repentance.

Acceptable Faith:

Hebrews 11 which precedes Hebrews 12 in sequence and also in thought:

13 These all died in faith (OT saints who are examples and witnesses to us), although they had not received the things that were promised. But they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth. 14 Now those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they were thinking about where they came from, they would have had an opportunity to return. 16 But they now desire a better place””a heavenly one. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

If our faith and our overarching eschatology has this teaching as it's priority and focus in the last day, it will go a long way to getting the Bride ready and being an example to the world that is now being shaken and rushing toward a cliff that has no bottom. IF we are focused on social reformation then it seems that we are counseling in a contrary direction to God's. The earth and the world system will be shaken. We are called to put our hope completely on the grace to be revealed at His Coming.

docs

I think the likely reason that they arrested Paul was because he proclaimed that salvation came through faith alone and not through performing the works of the law. Maybe also his view that temple sacrifices were vain now that Jesus had come and paid for sins once for all. Inmny opinion, this does nothing to nullify or cancel the totality of the promises made to Abraham.

Paul said more than that that would cause the Jews to persecute him and arrest him.

He said that a Jew is not one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. He said that a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter (Rom. 2:28-29).

He said that only those who are Christ’s are Abraham’s descendants (Gal.3:29).

He said that the New Covenant was made with Christ and only those who are Christ’s are Abraham’s descendants and heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:16,19,26-29).

Not once did he preach that an earthly land and kingdom would be restored to the Jewish people. But he taught that the kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit (Rom. 14:17).

And he said regarding the promise made to the fathers:

Acts 13:32-33,38-39 ”“
And we preach to you THE GOOD NEWS OF THE PROMISE MADE TO THE FATHERS, that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son; today I have begotten You.’ As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’…………Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Nothing at all about the restoration of an earthly land and kingdom to them.

He proved to them from scripture that Jesus is the Messiah, but they would not accept that Jesus is their Messiah (Acts 9:22, 17:2-3, 18:5, 18:28). The salvation Christ brought was not what they wanted, not what they desired, not what they were looking for and totally against their interpretation of OT prophecies.

Solid truth Jade. We can still see Scripture as you rightly do concerning Christ's eternal kingdom though and still see Israel as a geographic centerpiece for end times events as the Scriptures fortell. Those are not exclusive ideas.

I agree with your point "Those are not exclusive ideas” -
But recently, in part because of this thread 🙏🏻, I looked in my Bible and I can’t find Israel as a state appearing after 1 Cor. 10:18 and even there the shift in context by adding "after he flesh” and not simply Israel…

The rest of the references are contextually different as each comes with a qualifier, denoting specificity ; house of, children of, stock of, commonwealth of, etc… each time denoting a particular group or type of group of persons.

I’ve found it very difficult to find textual evidence for a state as it were other than "heavenly Jerusalem”, but the shift in how "Israel” is being presented by the Holy Spirit (writers ) especially in Hebrews is unmistakable once I noticed it.
With Israel only being mentioned 3 times in the book of Revelations, each being a "children of " it makes it even more difficult to rely on some of the more traditional interpretations.

You are right Fletcher about the lack of mention of Israel as a nation in the NT after a certain point. However, Revelation 11:8 does reference to Jerusalem ( the great city known spiritually as Sodom and Egypt which is an OT reference for Jerusalem). However the open question remains about whether any OT passages of the enemies of Israel attacking and surrounding the nation in a last battle apply. It’s entirely possible as many OT prophesies do relate forward to future times and events which may or may not have been realized yet depending upon viewpoint. I know you already know that so I’m presuming you discount that as a possibility. I think it’s safe to say that either interpretation is subject to debate and possible error. That’s why the safest route is to be ready for imminent return and urgent preparation, readiness and prayer.

There are verses such as this in the millennium that in the land of Israel as that was the Jewish expectation that the Messiah (Christ) would restore the land of Israel and he does in his second coming

Matthew 8:11
And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

There is over 85 references to Israel in the new testament
As a vast majority of the New testament happens in Jerusalem
Compare that to the Qur'an where there is no references to Jerusalem or Israel

You cannot look at your bible and in some bibles there is a map section

Jesus was from the Galilee area and nazereth where jesus came from is now overrun by Muslims and you go to the garden tomb , the area is overrun by Muslims
Bethlehem where jesus is born

You walk through the Israel museum in Israel and you can see things that relate to the bible

The Palestinians and Gaza when they say from the river to the sea they believe in the complete destruction of Israel

They destroyed Joshua altar recently and the Muslims have destroyed many artifacts related to the bible that prove the scriptures

I would love to do more archaeology in Israel and i need prayer for my work situation, as a Christian there are lots of physical things that we can point to and we have lots of evidence for our faith

As a Christian, the apostles were Jewish and our bible is a Jewish book and jesus is Jewish

I know what the Talmud says about how Jews despise jesus and how about the Rothschilds and these theories

But the thing is the bible says in Romans 11 that all of Israel shall be saved as a Christian when you pick up a bible and if you love the scriptures , you cannot help but love Israel

If we are dealing with biblical prophecy as alot of it happens in Israel and even scholars such as the people from the dead sea Scrolls community got the fact of jesus first coming wrong
There is alot of bible prophecy that is not from the bible

It is so hard to deal with so many things that have been bought up here

Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 1:49
Nathanael answered and said to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 12:13
took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out: "Hosanna! ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ The King of Israel!”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 1:6
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 2:22
"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know””
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 10:1
Israel Needs the Gospel
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 10:14
Israel Rejects the Gospel
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 10:19
But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: "I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 10:21
But to Israel he says: "All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 11:1
Israel’s Rejection Not Total
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 11:2
God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 11:7
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 11:11
Israel’s Rejection Not Final
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Hebrews 8:8
Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah””
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Hebrews 11:22
By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 2:14
But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 7:1
The Sealed of Israel
After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 21:12
Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

["about whether any OT passages of the enemies of Israel attacking and surrounding the nation in a last battle apply. It’s entirely possible as many OT prophesies do relate forward to future times and events which may or may not have been realized yet depending upon viewpoint.”]

Yes of course, and that was the understanding that required me to search it out in scripture, yet there is a distinct shift in how Israel is referred to that I must acknowledge. (For me) this doesn’t discount the possibility, rather it requires me to view it in light of what the scriptures teach us pertaining to these events.

Generally, end times topics are not a subject that I’ve spent much time in when compared to more immediate issues of sanctification and personal responsibility. In all honesty, much of my personal end times information has come from the discussions here on SI. While I was raised CoC and they tend towards a preterist view, it was something that I couldn’t fully embrace tho the influence from TMK and my wife has made notable headway in regards to establishing a biblical basis for certain aspects that have undoubtedly taken place already (70ad). It is also apparent from scripture that either certain events didn’t yet happen (70ad) or the language used was somewhat hyperbolic and as such can be over interpreted to apply in another time… this is a matter that I have personally not yet resolved, primarily due to the more pressing issues of raising 6 boys to know the Lord and sincerely seek to obey Him.
Just a year or two ago I held to a traditional, literal view that Israel (on a map) was the centerpiece of Gods efforts here on the earth, but through the work other saints have submitted, it is incumbent upon me to consider and account for the light they have brought, just as you have here. I do not claim to have a full understanding of these events but i cannot deny what the scriptures plainly say, and presently the reason why Holy Spirit made the shift in how He chose to refer to Israel from a "state” to a "people” relating to end times events, eludes me … 🤔

You wrote "It is so hard to deal with so many things that have been bought up here”
Yes I feel much the same😅
Yet I am grateful for so many saints willing to share their understanding, submitting them here for discussion. It is my belief that this can serve to edify and better equip the body🙏🏻

Like you, I find the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus is Jewish as well as the apostles (save Luke). Also I agree that the Lord isn’t finished with Israel and there is (at least) a remnant of 144,000 Jewish persons whom serve the Lord in righteousness in the last days.

What I find trouble with, is applying the spiritual heritage to the secular state,… (for me) the two presently seem to have a gulf between them-
And at the end of the day, the cross of Christ is the only means by which God has made a way to come into covenant fellowship, communion with Himself.
In my mind, there isn’t a scriptural reference to the Lord making any other provision for Jewish persons to be saved other than Jesus of Nazareth, who at present (and traditionally) squarely reject Him as messiah.
Having said this, not only do I not harbor any ill will towards Jewish people or Israel as a state nor do I find any common ground with Hamas or any other Islamic group or persons. While this is true, I simply cannot ignore the fact that though they (Jewish persons) are a small percentage of the population (2.8%) here, they enjoy a grossly disproportionate share of control over the levers of power. These persons in no way demonstrate devotion to Christ, rather they seem to demonstrate a tendency towards communism which is itself antithetical to our faith and as such, I cannot appropriate the historical favor God has shown the Jewish community while they are clearly denying His messiah and acting (as a group) to supplant Christs kingdom with one built by their own hands 🤷🏽”â™‚️
While their efforts don’t necessarily disturb me, the Lord has not licensed me to endorse them, and it does grieve me greatly to see the cross of my Lord and savior covered with a secular symbol that from its inception was not the Lords will…. Israel never needed a king much less a flag, for they had and still have a King in Jesus ✝️
My prayer is that the Lord will be merciful with everyone who doesn’t yet know Him and my efforts are to the end that they will not only come to know, but love and obey Him 🙏🏻

Hi Robert,

………and still see Israel as a geographic centerpiece for end times………

Certainly.

The Middle East was the cradle of human civilization. And it may well be that it will also be here that the death knell for all human civilizations will begin to toll.

But the Bible tells us that Christ will come again like a thief in the night.

Matt. 24:42-44 ”“
Therefore BE ON THE ALERT, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also must be ready; FOR THE SON OF MAN IS COMING AT AN HOUR WHEN YOU DO NOT THINK HE WILL.

1 Thess. 5:1-8 ”“
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. FOR YOU YOURSELVES KNOW FULL WELL THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME JUST LIKE A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. While they are saying, "Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. But since we are of the day, LET US BE SOBER, HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF FAITH AND LOVE, AND AS A HELMET, THE HOPE OF SALVATION.

2 Pet. 3:10-13 ”“
But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME LIKE A THIEF, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, AND THE EARTH AND ITS WORKS WILL BE BURNED UP.
Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

No thief comes according to a known and widely preached sequence of events.

Also, Peter said that when Christ comes again, the earth and its works will be burned up. So, when Christ comes again, this earth will be destroyed, and He will be coming to a NEW EARTH.

Blessings

Perhaps we can sometimes underestimate our enemy based on our past victories and the testimonies that come from them magnifying Christ.
Is it possible that we while being distracted by the physical, losing focus on the spiritual (where we enjoy victory), as such we tend to take sides in physical conflicts yet to the neglect of the spiritual (salvific) conflict.
This is not an issue of whose right and whose wrong, it’s a matter of life and death, spiritually, eternally…..
To this possibility, the writer writes "how shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation”
The NT is peppered with numerous similar warnings coming in every way.
Is it possible that we undervalued the depth of satans desire to deceive… his desire to distract, divide, draw away the disciples of Christ…
Israel’s enemy is not Palestine nor is Palestines enemy Israel, we have but one enemy who seeks to divide the children (tribes) of God, the Body of Christ and to keep as many eyes veiled from the truth as possible. As such, we have a responsibility to make war against any knowledge or pretense that exalts itself above the knowledge of Lord Jesus. Consider Paul’s farewell (warning) in Acts 20:
19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ

25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 ((((Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.))))
29 (((((For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.))))
31 ((((Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.)))
32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, ((((and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.)))

Clearly this is heavy on his heart as he exhorts them in sincere admonitions, to not lose focus on the fundamentals, being distracted and neglectful….

Our enemy is that old serpent, the same one that tempted Eve in the garden and Jesus in the wilderness. The same one who was defeated by the Lamb of God, His blood being sufficient in itself to make the offering.

We are called to serve Him in spirit and in truth through our worship, we overcome by the blood and the word but we worship our way out 🙏🏻

Thanks Fletcher for your posts and humble spirit. I especially appreciate your post about your Jewish friends and your heart for the Jewish people.

I have a simple admonition to myself and all on the forum that we adopt the humility of Paul in these matters. Despite his calling, gifting and instruction from the Lord, he came to the church in Corinth in fear and trembling and much weakness as he spoke for God to His children about the subject of His Son, the cross and His suffering and about the spiritual condition of His children. Paul was speaking in fear and trembling because of the subject matter, the preciousness of his listeners and the consequences to them if they did not abide in God's warnings and instructions.

I find that it is easy for me to slip into an academic detached mode of debate on matters that I and no one else is sufficient to speak to as we stand before God when we do. This is particularly relevant when dealing with end times as the Lord said adding to or taking from the Word on such matters is disastrous for the soul which is definitely not a hyperbolic warning. The one to whom He looks has a humble, contrite and trembling frame of soul, mind and heart when it comes to His Word and especially as it concerns His Son and His brothers and sisters.

I've seen a lot of "opinions" and probably given some in a lot of threads and speculation and opinions are frankly not going to instruct anyone or help anyone grow. I've also seen and issued a lot of combative language that can morph into personal ad hominem name calling in Biblical areas of truth, areas that are certainly debatable and often unresolvable. Labels of unclean spirits, monster theology, antisemitism and onward, are entirely unnecessary and usually are a resorting to baser instincts. False prophet, false apostle, false teacher, wolves, and those who cause divisions are the categories that Scripture reserves for those who have an agenda that turn them into enemies of the cross. Perhaps we should stick to those titles and those very limited instances and leave the rest of the accusations with the rest of the world.

/What I find trouble with, is applying the spiritual heritage to the secular state,… (for me) the two presently seem to have a gulf between them-/

Absolutely. You are correct on this. And this is accompanied by the fact that Israel is said to be inviolable and incapable of being defeated even while they remain outside of the new covenant. Stating this can get one kicked out of many meeting houses in the present-day church.

The transformation of the secular state into a spiritual one (in Christ) is what much end-time prophecy is about.The details are there, yet looking into it and forming views is, in many quarters, frowned on as a useless endeavor that takes one focus away from Christ. Go figure. One thing is abundantly clear. A Jewish presence in the land is a necessity for end-time events to occur. That fact cannot be gotten around or circumnavigated.

/And at the end of the day, the cross of Christ is the only means by which God has made a way to come into covenant fellowship, communion with Himself.
In my mind, there isn’t a scriptural reference to the Lord making any other provision for Jewish persons to be saved other than Jesus of Nazareth, who at present (and traditionally) squarely reject Him as messiah./

Again, statements like this baffle me. Even those who place too much emphasis on the modern state being the fulfillment of prophecy have never taught that the secular state and its citizens is going to be restored outside of Christ and the cross. Where or who stated it? Does believing in the future of Israel as a nation under God somehow imply one is saying it will be done outside of an acknowledgement of the cross? I don't understand where this comes from since no one has or is advocating it. The son of the bond woman will not be heirs with the free woman. That's hardly news. Why bring it up if no one has advocated it? Israel Being brought back into the bonds of the covenant will be through the cross ONLY. It's too bad you can tell someone this but, since you beleive in a godly future for Israel after the nation's spiritual birth, many times it goes in one of their ears and out the other. It's an unfounded, baseless caricature. Salvation for Jews and the nation will come by and through the cross ONLY. They will be required to come to the table by FAITH ALONE just like every one else.

/Having said this, not only do I not harbor any ill will towards Jewish people or Israel as a state nor do I find any common ground with Hamas or any other Islamic group or persons. While this is true, I simply cannot ignore the fact that though they (Jewish persons) are a small percentage of the population (2.8%) here, they enjoy a grossly disproportionate share of control over the levers of power. These persons in no way demonstrate devotion to Christ, rather they seem to demonstrate a tendency towards communism which is itself antithetical to our faith and as such, I cannot appropriate the historical favor God has shown the Jewish community while they are clearly denying His messiah and acting (as a group) to supplant Christs kingdom with one built by their own hands./

Look a little further good bro. Is this evil you portray the end of the matter? If certain Jews begin to act better, will God be more inclined to deal with them? That then would be WORKS on their part making them acceptable to God. We know man is not saved by acting better but by the sovereign grace of God. It is a test and sifting of how we see our own coming to faith. Did we act better to get God to be on our side or was the whole salvation experience of Him? Same with these Jews. Scripture says God has concluded all under sin so that He might show mercy to all. If we are waiting for unbelieving Jewry or the secular nation Israel to begin to act better, we will be waiting a long while. God's intervening, undeserved grace coming to them is another thing.

Thank you for your comments. Thanks for what you said about raising your kids for Christ.

I've been to Dothan more than once when I lived in Fla. Did you ever hear of or know a preacher in Dothan named John D?

Couldn’t agree more,… it’s with a humble spirit that we position ourselves to receive grace and yet it is a bold one wherewith we approach and obtain mercy (for others) 🙏🏻
Likewise your admonition is well received, especially in our preferred nomenclature regarding those whom are as the scriptures say, enemies of the cross.

In all honesty, I’ve found myself in tears many mornings over the past few weeks,… knowing what’s coming and for many has already come 😔
Can’t help but feel like we (the church) have failed the grace of God in many ways regarding Israel and while I could be wrong in my understanding, nonetheless my heart is grieved and it’d be dishonest to say otherwise-

The archaeologialy in Israel shows that Israel has been there for centuries
Hamas who is part of the Muslim brotherhood
When they say from the river to the sea they want the destruction of Israel and Israel to not exist

In Egypt the Muslim brotherhood was a small party took over Egypt and started persecuting Christians by writing n on there doors and burning churches

In Syria which held the most Christians in the middle east
They started attacking Christians in that country

They have used mass protests to take down governments in other countries

People who have not read the Qur'an don't understand how they treat Christians according the way of the traveller we are giving a dhimmi status

Thank you again for your patience with me, especially regarding this thread as it is not my intention to be contrary for contrary’s sake. My hope is that the body can be united under the headship of Christ, not having an independence of thought that shorts Him regarding His claim over us🙏🏻

As far as I have read you (nor anyone else) has stated that there is another way other than the cross and the blood of Christ. That was not my purpose in stating the obvious,… rather it’s primarily due to the tendency that we (western church) seem to view Israel and Jewish persons through the lens of the biblical (historical) OT perspective and less through the lens of the NT. As I mentioned, churches where the cross was covered by a state flag as though this would somehow please the Lord. Reminds me of Hosea’s words "my people perish for a lack of knowledge”. It’s just sad and won’t serve to lead people to the cross but to the flag 🤷🏽”â™‚️

"Look a little further good bro. Is this evil you portray the end of the matter?”
No sir, not at all but it is indeed the facts of the matter presently-

"If certain Jews begin to act better, will God be more inclined to deal with them”
No sir, nor did I suggest it would-

"That then would be WORKS on their part making them acceptable to God. We know man is not saved by acting better but by the sovereign grace of God.”
Yes, Amen 🙏🏻

"It is a test and sifting of how we see our own coming to faith. Did we act better to get God to be on our side or was the whole salvation experience of Him?”
Well, (for me) I didn’t get God on my side,… I got on His 😇
While salvation is free, it is conditional as is any/all covenants.

" Same with these Jews. Scripture says God has concluded all under sin so that He might show mercy to all. If we are waiting for unbelieving Jewry or the secular nation Israel to begin to act better, we will be waiting a long while. God's intervening, undeserved grace coming to them is another thing.”
Now we agree wholeheartedly on this and in fact, they are waiting on us,… until the fullness of the gentiles (according to scripture) which as it seems could possibly be much longer than we’d like to imagine-

"Did you ever hear of or know a preacher in Dothan named John D?”
If it’s who I think you are naming, bigger guy (looks Hawaiian), then yes and he loves the Lord, has a big heart, a strong, mature faith and is very active outside the church seeking to disciple believers 🙏🏻 I love him very much but haven’t seen him in a while-
We used to see/talk with each other almost daily at a local breakfast spot before it closed due to loss of revenue during Covid -

my observation regarding communism, it’s a thing that I’m quite sensitive to and we have more than you’d imagine right here in Dothan, AL. both in our local government as well as in churches. This is not to say these people are beholden to the CCP, (they may be), rather it’s a readily observable ideological position. It operates much in the same way as secular humanism, employing many of the same mechanisms seeking to do "good” (in their own eyes) but ultimately producing seed after its own kind,… the scriptures, our Lord even, says we should be as wise as serpents yet as harmless as doves… we would do well to take these words to heart or the words of Paul could very well become our lot-

2Cor 11:
1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
((((3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.))))
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him

This situation with Israel/Palestine (in my mind) holds the potential to do just that…draw us away from the simplicity in Christ. The spirit that is currently operating is (again in my mind) more earthly, nationalistic rather than that which comes from above,… as such, we have a massive responsibility to maintain our own relationship with God under the new covenant where Christ Jesus is the fulfillment of the old covenant, otherwise there is little to no chance that we will make anyone jealous, much less Israel.

What is the.new covenant
What does the word Christ mean ? And where does that come from ?
As I started of that post

Not sure if you’re looking for an expanded version regarding the NC, but I’d say the shortest answer is Christ.
He is both the fulfillment of the Old Covenant and the Lamb of the New Covenant, the fulfillment of all the Old Covenant promises and the embodiment of all the provisions of the New Covenant
The risen King over all creation 🙏🏻

Christ (as you know) is from the Greek "Christos” meaning "anointed”
Which is indicative of the Hebrew term "Messiah” -

Jesus Christ
Yeshua Hamashiach

(Not sure if that’s what you’re asking)

So where did the Messiah come from and where was he prophecied and which land and people Messiah is he

Who wrote the new testament and what nationality were they , how many were Jewish ?

Who was the new covenant made with and where is it prophecied in the old testament

What are the prophecies of the Messiah in the old testament?.

It would be easier if you would just ask or say plainly what you hope to bring out by pointing out Israel’s place or the Hebraic culture of our Jewish Messiah… ?