The identity of the antichrist

2 thess 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

The bible says in 2 thess 2
That the great apostasy of the church would reveal the antichrist

The bible states that he is sitting in the third temple

Daniel 11
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. note note

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. note note

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. note

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. note

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him

The bible says that he should neither regard women and he is a god of war
The interesting phrase is that he should not regard the god of his father's , also notice that he attacks Edom which is modern day Jordan which is Edom

I have always wondered as he is the god of war
And in the bible in rev 13

Rev 13
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. note

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. note

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

What we need to notice is that he is given power to overcome the saints and he is only given power to blaspheme
The global world order after the saints are destroyed

What sometimes frustrates me it is the supernatural aspects of the beast as he is able to call fire down from heaven
This in the bible was used in the temple as in the temple sacrifices system
This is why I struggle with an islamic antichrist as a Jewish person would not let them near the temple

Maimonides of the signs of the Messiah as they don't
Believe jesus

Maimonides - Laws Pertaining to The Messiah
Chapter 11
Halacha 1
In the future, the Messianic king will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will build the Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel. Then, in his days, the observance of all the statutes will return to their previous state. We will offer sacrifices, observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years

When we are commenting on the antichrist
He is wounded by the sword then lives

It is also says that the people of the earth make the image of the beast but the antichrist gives power to the image

The word image is the Greek word iKON it is interesting looking at the same word in other Greek literature

It is the Greek word for mark chirigma in greek
https://biblehub.com/greek/5480.htm

Homer's Iliad:
In Book 5 of the Iliad, there is a mention of a wound described as a "χάραγμα." The passage is in Ancient Greek, and here is an excerpt:

Iliad, Book 5, lines 321-322:
"Έκτορι δὲ λῦεν χαλκήρεον γόνυ χαλκῷ
Τυδείδης Ἀίας, ἔνθα πληγὴν χάρακα λύγρην."
This can be translated as something like:
"Ajax, the son of Telamon, struck Hector with his bronze knee in the place of the wound, a grievous mark."

Herodotus' Histories:
In Book 4 of Herodotus' Histories, there is a mention of marking a tree. Here's the passage:

Histories, Book 4, Chapter 89:
"ἐχαράχανε τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν."
Translated, it means something like:
He marked both the sky and the earth."

It simply could be a mark when looking at in other Greek literature like a branding

The other thing that interests is the fact that the antichrist comes out of ten kingdoms , so there can be no antichrist

Revelation 17:12

12 "The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

There has been not yet ten kingdoms

There is a different discussion on whether the antichrist comes from Rome , Islam or is Jewish

There is a differing view among the early church fathers

By means of the events that will occur in the time of the Antichrist, it is shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be worshipped as God. . . . For he is endowed with all of the power of the devil. He will come””not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king in subjection to God””but as an unholy, unjust, and lawless one. . . . He will set aside idols to persuade men that he himself is God. . . . Daniel, foresaw the end of the last kingdom (of the ten last kings), among whom the kingdom of those men will be partitioned and upon whom the son of perdition will come. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/ W), 1.553. When he comes, he will reign over the earth for three years and six months. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.554.

Jeremiah does not merely point out the Antichrist’s sudden coming, but he even indicates the tribe from which he will come, when he says, "We will hear the voice of his swift horses from Dan” [Jer. 8:16]. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/ W), 1.559. Once this Antichrist has devastated everything in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem. And then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.560.

The deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. . . . Christ is a king, so the Antichrist is also a king. The Savior appeared as a lamb. So he, too, in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. The Savior came into the world in the circumcision, and the Antichrist will come in the same manner. The Lord sent apostles among all

the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles. The Savior gathered together the sheep that were scattered abroad. And he, in like manner, will bring together a people who are scattered abroad. . . . The Savior raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem. Hippolytus (c. 200, W), 5.206. He says, "Dan is a lion’s whelp” [Deut. 33:22]. And in naming the tribe of Dan, he clearly declared the tribe from which the Antichrist is destined to spring. Just as Christ comes from the tribe of Judah, so the Antichrist is to come from the tribe of Dan. Hippolytus (c. 200, W), 5.207.

In the early church fathers there is different views
I have barely scratched the service

The issues that I struggle with as the antichrist is supposed to come out of the apostasy of the church and what does that mean and during the time of Martin Luther the church was in apostasy, the church is apostasy now

The church would know definitely when the antichrist sits in the temple or the holy of holies
Some people say this is the church but the Greek word naos is literally used for the holy of the holies in the Greek Septuagint

The other issue that I struggle with is in Daniel mentions that he is a god of war and only when he conquers the saints will there be globalism
This is why we have to double check whatever I say against the bible

People think that it is going to be easy to spot the antichrist or anti Messiah
Before jesus came there was many messiahs that they almost got sick of them

I also got sick of people saying this is shadows of the signs as that's called counterfeits

The scholars at the time of jesus first coming the scholars at the dead sea Scrolls and the Pharisees and Sadducees missed jesus first coming

Why do we think we are any better

Do you think God is going to follow people's earthly timelines of eschatology

Most people didn't know that jesus was born in Bethlehem during the first century

Without supernatural help we won't know who the antichrist is and he will be so like Jesus

The whole point of the antichrist is to accept the fake Messiah than the real one

If I could offer a thought.

Anti-Christ. The purpose of the anti-Christ will be to deceive and replace Christ, and eventually to destroy the Jewish race. His spirit is already at work in recent events we have witnessed and are witnessing.

/Without supernatural help we won't know who the antichrist is and he will be so like Jesus/

I believe we will know his identity for sure, when he, this man, sits in the temple (probably recently built anew) and declares himself to be god and the object of all worship. II Thess 2:3-5.

II Thess 2:4 - compare with Daniel 11:36-37.

When this desecrating abomination occurs (Matthew 24:15), it will trigger the great and final tribulation (Matthew 24:21). It was Jesus Himself who instructed us to take heed to the writings of Daniel in this regard (Matt 24:15). We will not be in darkness when he declares himself to be god. Our discernment will be correct because it will come from what is written in scripture regarding this man destined to come.

Meanwhile, I guess you are prepared to be met with skepticism and even a bit of ridicule for even being interested in these things and trying to sort them out. It will come.

Blessings.

//When this desecrating abomination occurs//

How can a temple of a false religion be desecrated?

Do you think God will honor a rebuilt temple and a renewal of a sacrificial system? Hebrews 8 & 9.

TMK,

Do your homework. Same old knee jerk misconceptions and misrepresentations. Explained before.

Dom-

You asked how apostasy could reveal the Antichrist.

Granted, I am not on the same eschatological wavelength as most of you, but I don’t think the verses say the apostasy itself will reveal the man of lawlessness, but that the apostasy must come before he is revealed. There is a subtle difference. If I was in your eschatological camp I would say the apostasy will make folks obviously more apt to follow Antichrist or be deceived by him.

It’s all a moot point for me because I am not in that camp.

//Explained before//

Obviously the explanation did not hold water.

We know from scripture what city he comes from

From you, Nineveh, has one come forth who plots evil against the LORD and devises wicked plans. Nahum 1:11

Docs,

Your exhortation about being ridiculed for searching out eschatological matters is timely brother. Strange how in these times that is true, and it is those that profess faith in Christ who are the most vehement critics (speaking of great apostasy).

More to the topic:

The identity of the antichrist will be so blatantly obvious that only spiritual blindness will cause people to miss it (scriptures already quoted by Docs).

Why can’t y’all just be honest and say you have no idea what the Antichrist even is or who he/it will be? If ESchaible is correct you’ll know him when you see him. All this endless surmising and wondering is tiresome and a little bit sad.

The matter has been debated for centuries and no one is one lick closer to having it figured out.

I’ve seen several different ideas on this thread alone.

He’s been various popes, Constantine, Hitler, Reagan, Kissinger, Obama, Elon Musk, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

And it is exceedingly debatable that it is even a yet future actual person.

TMK,

You haven't even represented correctly what ESchaible stated in regards to connecting it to what I shared. Just like you misrepresented me a few posts ago. These things get tiresome and sad also. Like I said, you need to do your homework in a more thorough manner so as to not caricaturize and misrepresent others you disagree with in this area. If your marked indifference and even disdain for eschatology continues to take precedence though, it's your choice.

i'm through. No more replies. Peace.

TMK,

The antichrist is a man, yet future, who will rule over the world and speak blasphemies and show great signs and wonders, and deceive most into worshiping him as God. He will decimate the Jewish people, completely annihilating them if not for God sovereignly saving for Himself 144,000. When God shows His power on behalf of the Jews, his vitriol will be redirected to anyone with a testimony of Jesus Christ, but they will overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the power of their testimony.

The antichrist will rule for 42 months (3.5 years), control buying and selling with a mark, decimate the world population of Jew and Christian, and all who don't take his mark. And so on...

The cyclical nature of the Revelations writing style takes a bit to get used to, but it's all there, I am still piecing it together myself (Babylon for instance, is it the USA? Shanghai? Still figuring that part out).

But my guess is the antichrist will be Islamic.

But to discount the entire study of eschatology because you don't currently know, and to bring accusation and reproach to those who seek it out, is to ultimately bring the promised judgments upon yourself that are promised in the revelation.

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

Could "taking away" mean much more than just taking words away from it? Could it also mean taking away its value? It's portent to the church and the cosmic struggle we are in? I believe to take away from it the deep importance of this yet future prophecy is to bring yourself grievously close to the anger and wrath of God.

But honestly, I work in a factory, so take all of that with a grain of salt.

And TMK, I am always baffled at your comments in these threads, because you are like someone who claims that the square root of 23476 is definitely not 16, but has no idea what the answer actually is.

Docs,
I hear you brother. Send me an email if you wanna chat about this stuff, I value your words a great deal.

Hi Todd,

How about this one, I'm sure you heard of this too lol:
https://youtu.be/SQN7y5I9poc?si=NOsPitC0GZvJw3UC

But it is quite convincing in a certain degree. 🤔

Cheers,

//but has no idea what the answer actually is.//

Glad you have it all figured out! That’s quite an accomplishment.

The fact of the matter is that no one has it figured out.

The reason I sound like I do is that I am amazed that people are so confident in their pet views that they give absolutely no consideration to differing viewpoints many which have been held for the vast majority of church history.

I certainly am not afraid to admit that I am not beholden to any particular eschatological view because I am not so arrogant to believe that I can understand completely matters that have been fairly debated by godly men for centuries.

I used to believe pretty much along the lines of what you laid out below before I ever realized there were actually alternative explanations than the typical dispensational paradigm which actually make much more sense. Unfortunately the great majority of evangelical churches only teach from a dispensational viewpoint so that is all people know. They are quite frankly ignorant of other interpretations, like those held by someone as respected as RC Sproul, for example (he was a partial preterist). No one can say he didn't know his Bible.

The point in that comment was that you say we are wrong, but have no alternative answers. We are just wrong, but you don't know what's right. We are wrong, not because you have offered an alternative right answer, but only because you said we are wrong.

Docs gave some good exhortations to you, and all of us. It would beneficial to heed his words.

Quote: The cyclical nature of the Revelations writing style takes a bit to get used to, but it's all there; I am still piecing it together myself (Babylon, for instance, is it the USA? Shanghai? Still figuring that part out).

Then he carried me away in the Spirit to a wilderness. The word there can be translated as (desert)

That is what the HCS bible does.

So he carried me away in the Spirit to a desert. I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.

Now, if you say that she rode the beast, the beast with ten horns is located in the desert as well.

//The point in that comment was that you say we are wrong, but have no alternative answers. We are just wrong, but you don't know what's right. We are wrong, not because you have offered an alternative right answer, but only because you said we are wrong.//

You haven’t been here long enough perhaps to realize the extent that these things haven’t been discussed over the years. Do you really want me to lay out in depth my systematic eschatology on this forum? I don’t really think you do, nor do I have the time for such an undertaking. It won’t change anyone’s mind. I was a diehard "left-behinder” ala Jenkins and Lahaye perhaps 17 years ago. But after hours and hours and hours and hours of listening to teachings on partial preterism and extensive reading on the subject I came to realize it is the far better way to interpret the scriptures.

It’s something that has to be done on one’s own and it takes time to try to break out of preconceived notions that have been drilled into us for, in my case, about 40 years.

By the way, I am not saying your understanding is not correct. There is Biblical support for it, obviously. It may be correct. But it also may very well may not be. So I guess that’s my main point. Instead of spending time trying to figure out every last detail of how things will shake out maybe we should just focus on the Lord, long for His coming, and be ready for whatever may come our way.

I couldn't access my original account from 2006.

I sometimes feel quite weary to read all these questions about who the antichrist might be will. Are we waiting for Christ or for the antichrist?
What use would it be if I knew who the antichrist is and I am not able to overcome by the blood of the lamb and the testimony of the word?

Better to know the great Victor than the great Loser.

Good points np
I was thinking the same.
May we meditate on the true Christ and come to a deeper understanding who He is!

Paul said to Timothy:
15 Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth.
16 Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior.
17 This kind of talk spreads like cancer,a as in the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2v15-17 NLT)

Markus

Amen NP!

"I sometimes feel quite weary to read all these questions about who the antichrist might be will. Are we waiting for Christ or for the antichrist?"

You make a very good point Brother! it’s like the book of Revelation, many Christians are obsessed with AntiChrist, when that book is the revelation of Jesus Christ

Instead of spending time trying to figure out every last detail of how things will shake out maybe we should just focus on the Lord, long for His coming, and be ready for whatever may come our way.

This is sound advice. Isn't it interesting how you can post about prophetic events on a forum like this, or hold a conference at your church about prophetic events, and you will get an abundant response in views and attendance. But post an exhortation from E.M. Bounds on the necessity of prayer, or call people in your church to a weekly prayer meeting, and the response is meager.

I couldn't access my original account from 2006

So please bring us up to speed, what name did you post under in 2006? What made you decide to leave the forum, and then come back? BTW, I do appreciate your posts and the insight that you bring to the forum, glad you returned.

In Christ,

It's strange how these threads devolve so quickly into a false humility and pseudo piety that says, "we shouldn't study these things but rather focus on Christ".

Jesus is the one that commands us to study and know these things. Jesus rebuked people for not being able to discern the signs of the times...

I bet all of us can tell if it will rain based on the sky, but can we discern the signs of the times? If not, Jesus has scathing words for us.

I will bow out like Docs did now, as I see what he means.

Ron,
Pretty similar username before, evanschaible. If Greg could help with it, I would use that one (not sure why that is so important...)

2 thess 2
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

I have heard this argument but the thing is the antichrist is going to look like jesus. We need to focus on the Messiah as jesus the Messiah should be our focus
The problem that I find is that you get cleche sayings that people who believe in the pre tribulation rapture say we focus on jesus Christ rather than the antichrist

A counterfeit is alot like the real and as Christians we need to know are bible back to front , in greek and Hebrew
, we need to be in prayer

I bring the example of the silver chair as in the silver chair Jill pole is in the letters of the sign that she was given to by aslan and didnt know it

Most signs from the scripture we simply now know through hindsight but it was alot more harder for the people at the time
We know from the scripture that there will be many antichrists and false prophets before jesus returns

Matt 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

If scholars from Jesus time didnt get the fact that jesus was the Messiah , the chances are there are alot of things that we are going to get wrong and alot of prophetic timelines will be about as useful as newspaper is for fish and chips

I don't believe in a pre tribulation rapture and I don't want Christians getting fooled that the antichrist is jesus the Messiah

I want to know Jesus and I don't want jesus to say depart from me I never knew you , we are in a war , a spiritual one and we have an enemy

2 Timothy 2:4
No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour

I like Denny Kensington anology when he spoke about a person who has been shot by the enemy is going to be alot more angry about the enemy than a person who hasn't because he has been wounded and understands .

When regarding the enemy the best way to attack him is to spend time in Jesus presence and with our bible and to press on towards that heavenly city like in pilgrim progress

Luke 14:31
Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand?

To me the as it says in the book of Thessalonians that the church will know the identity of the antichrist

There are different opinions

1.Roman Vs islamic
Joel Richardson Vs Thomas ice
https://youtu.be/lo-GZAxxfMw?si=HToduDf-6_TwV9h-

Jewish Vs islamic
Joel Richardson Vs Chris white
https://youtu.be/Uy2ytMSFvm0?si=rwmXzLyTlNtKSjap

I do not have a clue about the Greek gematria of 666 is

I am a wounded man spiritually who has faced the fiery darts of the evil one and knows we are in a battle and In a war

The strange thing is that evil seems to be more fascinating than what is good, true, right and pure.

I think it is time to say goodbye to the world as we knew it, goodbye to order, sanity, common sence, freedom, peace, justice and prosperity. All these wonderful things we enjoyed for a time and season, it will be taken from us only to enjoy something infinitely better!

Madness, hate, lies, fear, sin and iniquity will accelerate in intensity, we see it already before our own eyes!

Satan and the antichrist are only there to purify the bride and separate the unrighteous from the righteous.

He has no other purpose. Although they are Gods and our enemies they can only do exactly what God allows him to do.
They have very limited time, their days are numbered, their judgement already pronounced, they will bear the full wrath of God forever.
Whosover dies at the hand of the antichrist and his henchmen has a place of glory garanteed in God's kingdom.

Rev 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

As Daniel was given Wisdom, because we sought God and interceded on his knees, so will we receive wisdom to work out the meaning and person related to 666.

God sealed Daniels vision, but in the end the seal will be lifted and the mystery revealed to to his beloved.
Psalm 25:14
The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

We can join the heavenly host in praise and then return with Christ to earth to reign with him forever!

It is all about being faithful to the end.

I found it fascinating that passages that describe great devastation and cruelty are interlaced with the most glorious descriptions of heavenly praise found anywhere in the entire scriptures.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

Dom,

I wanted to risk another reply to address what you said about the antichrist trying to deceive people into believing he is the return of Christ.

I just wanted to point out a couple things:

1. The Jews are still waiting for their Messiah, so for them it would be his first advent, or so they believe. Obviously Jesus is their Messiah (before anyone puts me on blast), but the Jewish people do not believe that.

2. Islam is also, technically, an Abrahamic religion. So the antichrist coming from Israel is not completely discounted just because he is Islamic.

3. Keep in mind we have much more information than even the first century believers, so like we are told by the prophets concerning deception, I believe this to is something we will consider more perfectly as the time grows closer. We have witnessed things they never dreamed of, even in our lifetimes.

We will never enter into God’s purpose for our lives which is Christ likeness by studying the antichrist, being an expert on the demonic realm.
The Word of God does tell us that we are not to be ignorant of the devices of the devil. We should have only one magnificent obsession, the Lord Jesus Christ, as we behold Him, we are changed into His image from glory to glory. The Father is looking for His Son in every believer and in the Church, the measure of Christ. Concerning the antichrist and debating about the rapture, there are many opinions, we would do well to give heed to the admonition in the Word of God to WATCH and PRAY.

Mike,

It's to bad you weren't around to exhort Paul, Peter and especially John. The Revelation is where a lot of this comes from, was he not focused on Christ?

Was Daniel not focused on Jesus?

What about Jesus Himself? Are we to ignore His commands to know these things? Are we to ignore His words concerning these things?

When I study eschatology it is in obedience to Jesus, who Himself studied and taught it.

What would you have us do Mike? Give us your practical advice to proceed forward.

During the pandemic, this was something that intrigued me because of the world event. And what got me to do more research is when the government introduced the vaccine mandates. I almost believed it was the mark of the beast. But as I studied the Word, this was not the mark but seemed like a test run. Fast forward to today, the war in Israel and Ukraine is very concerning. Not only that, we see inflation everywhere and the economy is getting worst and at the same time, technology is rapidly advancing. Another thing I'd like to mention is how the media is distorting many things by lying and manipulating narratives. One more thing I'd like to add is how we have two powers fighting each other like the communist vs capitalist, Republicans vs democrats, conservatives vs liberals and so on.
The book of Revelation mentions about the beast that came out of the earth and how he had 2 horns like a sheep. Prophet Daniel mentions how the king of the north and the king of the south kept on lying to each other.

Also, the book of Revelation mentions about how the pit of the Abyss is opened and smoke came out.
”­Revelation”¬ ”­9:2”¬ ”­BSB”¬
[2] The star opened the pit of the Abyss, and smoke rose out of it like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the pit.

Currently, we are seeing so much confusion, so much distortion about the events happening. The smoke is rising and covering the light and making it hard to breathe. Out of that smoke from the Abyss, came the locusts which later on were the beast that waged war with the two witnesses. The Abyss is the deep and the sea is deep.
We don't know the identity of the antichrist but we know that the time is near and we know how the world is desperately waiting for someone to save them but they are not waiting for Jesus Christ.

And we know that the Day of the Lord Jesus is near. So we must get ready by bearing fruit and putting our hope in the risen Lamb of God who was slained.

Revelation 1
New King James Version
Introduction and Benediction

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants””things which must [a]shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

The book of revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ

Hi Todd,

The reason I sound like I do is that I am amazed that people are so confident in their pet views that they give absolutely no consideration to differing viewpoints many which have been held for the vast majority of church history.

I certainly am not afraid to admit that I am not beholden to any particular eschatological view because I am not so arrogant to believe that I can understand completely matters that have been fairly debated by godly men for centuries.

I used to believe pretty much along the lines of what you laid out below before I ever realized there were actually alternative explanations than the typical dispensational paradigm which actually make much more sense. Unfortunately the great majority of evangelical churches only teach from a dispensational viewpoint so that is all people know. They are quite frankly ignorant of other interpretations, like those held by someone as respected as RC Sproul, for example (he was a partial preterist). No one can say he didn't know his Bible.

Interestingly, I come from a different background. My parents were not believers. My mother became a believer when I was in school. This was subsequently followed by two of my siblings. I went to church (as I was required to go) but I never truly "believed" until much later. During high school, I did "pretend" to be a Christian among most of my church and youth group peers. However, my friends in high school largely knew me a little better. In fact, I was quite agnostic when it came to belief in God up until a year before giving my life to the Lord.

Consequently, I didn't really believe ANYONE or ANYTHING doctrinal when I came to Christ. It was largely due to a strong sense of skepticism prior to believing in Christ Jesus. When I came to Christ, I didn't know whether "Ephesians" was in the Old Testament or New Testament. However, I immediately read through the Word of God the week that I was saved. I kept repeating this over and over again.

Due to my previous lack of belief and deep skepticism, I suppose that I was more of a "tabula rasa" (i.e., "clean slate") than most people who are raised in Christian families. With this in mind, I had a tendency to question everything that I was taught. I also had little access to (or even desire to read) Christian books on doctrine.

More importantly, I just didn't hold any ministers, denominations or even local churches (together with their doctrines) with particularly high regard. This is not to say that I didn't respect them or feel that there were preachers who were devout and sincere in their love for Jesus. I was simply able to separate sincerity and love for God from matters of doctrinal truth.

I simply believed that the Bible was the only indisputable truth for deriving beliefs from. So, any time I heard a preacher, I did so with a metaphorical "one eye open" consideration -- always weighing what was said by what I read in Scripture.

I suppose that this sense of skepticism -- a sense of "critical thinking" that is rooted only in Scripture -- followed me outside of church meetings too. Recently, a brother asked if I ever had a sense that we are not being told the whole truth on a matter. He further emphasized this question within the context of mainstream narratives, education, history, etc. My answer is an emphatic "YES." It's less than a suspicion and more of a manner by which I hold God and His Word above all else.

I went through college and graduate school with this in mind. I had to sit through courses in which quite a few of my professors taught ideas that were in conflict with -- or directly opposition to -- God's Word. So, I judged all lectures, lessons, labs and textbook claims with a mind that placed God above all. This didn't mean that I rejected anything and everything that I was taught (by no means!). Rather, I tested what they said by what I knew to be true from God's Word.

I'm reminded of something that is often overlooked in Paul's epistle to the Galatians. Most people understand his exhortation in the first chapter, how he shares the timeline of his life following his conversion in chapters 1 and 2 as well as his public rebuke of the apostle Peter in chapter 2. However, I think that many people overlook the reason he shared these things.

In Galatians 1:11-12, Paul points out the reason behind his subsequent timeline following his conversion. He wrote:

.......

11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:11-12 (ESV)

.......

Paul then proceeds to explain just how little interaction he had with the apostles or other early believers following his conversion. This was to illustrate that he didn't receive his gospel from any man. He wasn't repeating what he had been taught. Rather, he received it "through a REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" (verse 12). It's interesting that Paul uses the same terminology for how he received his Gospel as John later used (i.e., "revelation of Jesus Christ") around 90-95 A.D. to show his servants "what must soon take place" (Revelation 1:1-3).

Thus, the apostle Paul was pointing out that the things that he received came through such divine spiritual revelation rather than by sitting and learning at the feet of others. He had very little interaction with any of those "who seemed to be pillars" (Galatians 2:9) until later after his conversion. So, the gospel that he presented came from the Lord and not from man.

In the context of believers today, we have this gospel and revelation contained for us in the form of the New Testament -- consisting of Gospels, a detailed history of the early church (Acts), epistles (letters) and a book of prophecy (Revelation). All of these New Testament help shed light upon the things we find in the Old Testament.

This is something that I increasingly find missing in the Church today. I spoke with someone not long ago who has been a believer nearly all their lives (for around 30 years). Yet, in the course of a discussion about the Word of God, this person admitted to me that he had never read the Word of God -- either the Old or New Testaments -- through. He believed that (over the years) he had likely read most of the New Testament and quite a bit of the Old Testament. Yet, he wasn't sure if he had ever read a single book (including any epistle) from start to finish.

Last year, I saw a poll that included a question about reading the Bible. Among people who considered themselves Christians, more than 70% admitted that they had never read the entire Bible.

The implications of this is heart-wrenching! This also begs the question as to how doctrine is formed for others. If a Christian has settled upon doctrinal positions, how did they derive to it without having read the Word of God through even one time?

My guess would be that people often arrive to doctrinal views through the teachings and traditions of man (including denominations and local church leaders). While teaching is certainly vital for local churches (and teaching is included among Paul's list of spiritual gifts in his letter to the Corinthians), I believe that indoctrination is very different from a doctrinal foundation that comes from the revelation received by simply reading God's Word.

I also think that this is one of the reasons why Paul instructed Timothy to devote himself to the public reading of Scripture (I Timothy 4:13). While teaching is very important, it becomes indoctrination when the students lack familiarity with Scripture and an accompanying ability to rightly handle the word of truth.

This is true for all matters of doctrine. It is a principal that is also true in academic settings and life itself. Science is based upon mastery of various basic principles along with repeat observation.

Sadly, in today's version of "academia," many students are merely indoctrinated -- eager believers of what a professor or teacher told them was "true." They don't engage in real research, study or peer review because, unfortunately, professors and teachers often don't require it. In fact, many feel insulted if their students don't simply take their lectures as "truth."

It's often been pointed out that conspiracy theories grow in the minds of people who are lazy with their "research" -- individuals who seek confirmation for their preexisting biases. It's difficult to convince such individuals because they often feel that they are "in the know" from a more limited number of sources that are, in turn, devoid of scrutiny, criticism, peer review or even observation. Yet, the same can be said of the professors and teachers who are satisfied with indoctrinating students rather than teaching students how to conduct real, intensive research and determine a matter on this basis.

This is what I feel happens in the modern church. We have plenty of access to books, teachings and tools. We have teachers who instruct us in matters of doctrine. We even read the Word of God topically -- and often in a manner to reinforce preexisting views and beliefs. Yet, with all of the resources available (including many copies of Scripture in multiple languages and translations all by our smartphones), many still fail to ever completely read the Word of God.

All of these things that I've written is to point out the flaw when it comes to staking positions on matters of Scripture -- including eschatology. I would go so far as to say that it isn't proper for believers to meander to books and teachings about doctrine without having a good fully-foundational understanding of God's Word. Moreover, it is not a good thing to stake a doctrinal position without first having such a foundation. It is difficult to identify error if we don't know the Scriptures well enough to compare those things.

This doesn't mean that we will always agree with those who seem to know their Bible well. For instance, there are many areas of doctrine in which I strongly disagree with many of R.C. Sproul's teachings. However, the same is also true with other preachers and teachers too (including some of whom I really enjoying hearing their messages). It's also one reason why I think that it's okay to not take a position with absolute certitude if I am not completely convinced by a clarity in Scripture.

Believe me, I don’t agree with R.C.’s Calvinism but even ol’ RC couldn’t get everything right.

You are correct about the importance of knowing scripture instead of knowing about scripture or knowing what others know about scripture.

I have read the Bible through yearly for many years and it is strange how the more I read it the less I am convinced of much I was taught in my younger years. I suspect views I hold today may be tweaked moving forward.

Dominic,

We're not going to be here, right?

wink, wink, wink!!!!

Why would the verses be in the bible if we are not suppose to face the antichrist

He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, will venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us Christians. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.253, 254.

Bercot, David W., editor. Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs . Hendrickson Pub. Kindle Edition.

Revelation 13:7
It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

On Christ and Antichrist (Hippolytus)
6. Now, as our Lord Jesus Christ, who is also God, was prophesied of under the figure of a lion, on account of His royalty and glory, in the same way have the Scriptures also aforetime spoken of Antichrist as a lion, on account of his tyranny and violence. For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion; Christ is a king,John 18:37 so Antichrist is also a king. The Saviour was manifested as a lamb; John 1:29 so he too, in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. The Saviour came into the World in the circumcision, and he will come in the same manner. The Lord sent apostles among all the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles. The Saviour gathered together the sheep that were scattered abroad, and he in like manner will bring together a people that is scattered abroad. The Lord gave a seal to those who believed on Him, and he will give one like manner. The Saviour appeared in the form of man, and he too will come in the form of a man. The Saviour raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, John 2:19 and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem. And his seductive arts we shall exhibit in what follows. But for the present let us turn to the question in hand.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0516.htm

Daniel 7:21
"I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,

Lysa made an interesting point, and I think that reveals the root and cause of a great deal of disconnect in discussions concerning eschatology.

The eschatological presuppositions someone holds will act like a lens through which they interpret every other event spoken of in the Bible regarding the end/new beginning.

With that said, these discussions would be more orderly, I think, if everyone clearly stated their current stance on the pre-tribulation rapture (not for discussion purposes, but more so everyone knows how they are viewing prophetic scriptures), or their stance in general, as it currently stands.

I have a meager understanding of the terms that surround this study, so I am sure I personally, in some way, diverge from them all at some of the finer details. But based on my current understanding of the lingo, and the broader teaching they espouse, here is my stance.

I don't believe in a rapture at all per se, I believe in the resurrections, and a catching up with Jesus as He returns, but not a "vanishing", as it us popularly taught.

From my understanding I am pre-millenial, at least insofar as that is stating specifically that Jesus returns to set up a 1000 year reign before a final unleashing of Satan on the earth.

I believe in an actual antichrist and false prophet, two literal persons yet future. My understanding at present is that the antichrist will be the Islamic imam responsible for leading the final regime that ushers in the time of Jacobs trouble, ie. the attempted eradication of the Jews.

The false prophet, I would think it follows logically and scripturally, would be the man Islam believes to be the return of Jesus (who they merely hold as a prophet, and will promote and support their final imam).

Babylon the great city... Well there's the rub. But if I were to follow my eschatology thus far and look at the current world system, and the scripture surrounding this topic, my best guess is Saudi Arabia.

Other than that, the Bible is pretty cut and dry about the rest of its eschatology.

ES-

I believe exactly as you do regard long the timing of the "rapture” (at the Second Coming).

I do not believe in a literal millennium or a literal New Jerusalem or a literal future Antichrist or false prophet or mark of the beast or tribulation etc. My mom and my best friend would both strongly disagree with me but oh well.

TMK,

I guess I should have stated I do believe in a physical kingdom of Jesus, on earth for eternity.

We should start a discussion about the kingdom of Jesus after the end, that would be interesting.

Do you have evidence to back up your positions biblically

TMK,

What are the popular labels for your stances? I only ask because I honestly have no idea what alot of them mean, and I only know the ones associated with my beliefs because someone at some point told me that's what I was... So I could be wrong about them as well. I haven't read enough literature outside of the Bible regarding eschatology to know the terminology very well, at least as it stands in the modern academic study.

Could you list the stance you have, and than the popular academic label for it after?

Also, this is possibly the only theological arena I think this would be helpful in, as I don't believe very many people understand even slightly the numerous stances there are in these things. Much different than other doctrines, and another world from essential doctrines.

If you hold a view how can you back it biblically

//What are the popular labels for your stances? //

Amillenialism, partial preterism.

//If you hold a view how can you back it biblically//

Very well indeed, if I had hours and hours to do so.

This is an interesting video about who the lawless one might be.
https://youtu.be/_sT5gnaBav4?si=m51TDOWzJWgNZ5hq

It could be the person he is describing but even if it is true or not let's seek God and abide in Christ Jesus.

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

I do not believe with the aspect of a anti Messiah figure or anti christ figure
The bible does not say that there will be a seven year peace treaty it says it will confirm a covenant for one week and in the next verse it says that sacrifice and oblation will cease which means that the temple must be around , a third temple so the covenant must be related to the mosiac covenant

I like the enthusiasm 😄😄

But
Daniel 11
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. note note

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain

In verse 38 of Daniel 11 it states that the antichrist will be a god of war

There is a verse that he supposedly brings peace

Revelation 6
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer

You could infer from this passage that the antichrist comes in peace
As I believe that all with the seals the four horseman describe one person rather than 4 different people

There has been talks that rabbi snearson with netanhayu that netanhayu would pass the keys to the Jewish Messiah not jesus
It could be someone like Jared kushner but the thing is does the rest of the biblical evidence validate the case

In Jewish thought he would have to build the third temple as that is one of the things that can test according to Maimonides

I think personally that the antichrist wil have to take out Islam

I struggle with how can you have an antichrist who is specifically mentioned as a god of war as that is literally what it means and the aspect of globalisation

I am happy for any interaction as I am not dogmatic on this subject
I am mess and I need jesus as much as anyone else and we can only know the false by knowing the truth

There are three camps that the antichrist is from Rome, Jewish or islamic and there is probably others such as preterists and other views , the thing is how do they weigh up biblically

I've not read these two following statements in the Bible. Would someone please point me to the book, chapter and verse where I can read this? Thanks.

"The bible states that he is sitting in the third temple"

"The purpose of the anti-Christ will be...to destroy the Jewish race."

"The bible states that he is sitting in the third temple"

2 Thess 2
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

"The purpose of the anti-Christ will be...to destroy the Jewish race."

I dont have a clue

Dom- You are *inferring* a future third temple, correct? Further, you seem to be inferring a future third temple with a Holy of Holies, animal sacrifices, etc.?

It is allready happening in Israel , they have been doing it for the last six to eight years the animal sacrifices

Ancient Animal Sacrifice makes a comeback
https://youtu.be/3wAqMdUx_Wg?si=rxViWbMj-NPU4tb7

Third Temple Plans have begun
https://youtu.be/3wAqMdUx_Wg?si=rxViWbMj-NPU4tb7

Levitical CHoir performs as the Southern Wall of the Temple Mount
https://youtu.be/uqlvVQ9Wp-k?si=SQeSzoinQfSeOG35

They basically have everything ready, this is not theory

The bible predicts it in 2 Thess 2
2 Thessalonians 2:4
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Daniel 9:27
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

With the daniel 9:27 passage it infers that sacrifices and offereings were going on and assuming a third temple

The jews will not accept a messiah if he does not build a third

This is what the jews believe regarding there messiah and they wont except a messiah who does not build the third temple

Maimonides - Laws Pertaining to The Messiah

Maimonides - Laws Pertaining to The Messiah

Jews for Judaism

Maimonides » Mishneh Torah » Sefer Shoftim » Melachim uMilchamot

In this post we will read about Maimonides, the laws pertaining to the Messiah and find out what really are the laws. Read on to find out.
So what are these laws pertaining to the Messiah? Read on!
Chapter 11
Halacha 1
In the future, the Messianic king will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will build the Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel. Then, in his days, the observance of all the statutes will return to their previous state. We will offer sacrifices, observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years according to all their particulars as described by the Torah. Anyone who does not believe in him or does not await his coming, denies not only the statements of the other prophets, but those of the Torah and Moses, our teacher. The Torah testified to his coming, as Deuteronomy 30:3-5 states: God will bring back your captivity and have mercy upon you. He will again gather you from among the nations... Even if your Diaspora is at the ends of the heavens, God will gather you up from there... and bring you to the land.... These explicit words of the Torah include all the statements made by all the prophets. Reference to Mashiach is also made in the portion of Bilaam who prophesies about two anointed kings: the first anointed king, David, who saved Israel from her oppressors; and the final anointed king who will arise from his descendants and save Israel in the end of days. That passage Numbers 24:17-18 relates:

'I see it, but not now' - This refers to David;

'I perceive it, but not in the near future;" - This refers to the Messianic king;

'A star shall go forth from Jacob' - This refers to David;

'and a staff shall arise in Israel' - This refers to the Messianic king;

'crushing all of Moab's princes' - This refers to David as II Samuel 8:2 relates: 'He smote Moab and measured them with a line;'

'decimating all of Seth's descendants' - This refers to the Messianic king about whom Zechariah 9:10 prophesies: 'He will rule from sea to sea.'

'Edom will be demolished' - This refers to David as II Samuel 8:6 states 'Edom became the servants of David;'

'Seir will be destroyed' - this refers to the Messianic king as Ovadiah 1:21 prophesies: 'Saviors will ascend Mount Zion to judge the mountain of Esau....'
Halacha 2
Similarly, with regard to the cities of refuge, Deuteronomy 19:8-9 states: 'When God will expand your borders... you must add three more cities.' This command was never fulfilled. Surely, God did not give this command in vain. There is no need to cite proofs from the works of the prophets for all their books are filled with mention of this matter.
Halacha 3
One should not presume that the Messianic king must work miracles and wonders, bring about new phenomena in the world, resurrect the dead, or perform other similar deeds. This is definitely not true. Proof can be brought from the fact that Rabbi Akiva, one of the greater Sages of the Mishnah, was one of the supporters of King Bar Kozibah and would describe him as the Messianic king. He and all the Sages of his generation considered him to be the Messianic king until he was killed because of sins. Once he was killed, they realized that he was not the Mashiach. The Sages did not ask him for any signs or wonders. The main thrust of the matter is: This Torah, its statutes and its laws, are everlasting. We may not add to them or detract from them.
Halacha 4
If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of God, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach. If he succeeds in the above, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Mashiach. He will then improve the entire world, motivating all the nations to serve God together, as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of God and serve Him with one purpose.' If he did not succeed to this degree or was killed, he surely is not the redeemer promised by the Torah. Rather, he should be considered as all the other proper and complete kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. God caused him to arise only to test the many, as Daniel 11:35 states: 'And some of the wise men will stumble, to try them, to refine, and to clarify until the appointed time, because the set time is in the future.' Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Mashiach and was executed by the court was also alluded to in Daniel's prophecies, as ibid. 11:14 states: 'The vulgar among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.' Can there be a greater stumbling block than Christianity? All the prophets spoke of Mashiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior who would gather their dispersed and strengthen their observance of the mitzvot. In contrast, Christianity caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humbled, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the Lord. Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts, our thoughts. Ultimately, all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him will only serve to prepare the way for Mashiach's coming and the improvement of the entire world, motivating the nations to serve God together as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of God and serve Him with one purpose.' How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with the mention of Mashiach, Torah, and mitzvot. These matters have been spread to the furthermost islands to many stubborn-hearted nations. They discuss these matters and the mitzvot of the Torah, saying: 'These mitzvot were true, but were already negated in the present age and are not applicable for all time.' Others say: 'Implied in the mitzvot are hidden concepts that can not be understood simply. The Mashiach has already come and revealed those hidden truths.' When the true Messianic king will arise and prove successful, his position becoming exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage and their prophets and ancestors caused them to err. Chapter 12
Halacha 1
Do not presume that in the Messianic age any facet of the world's nature will change or there will be innovations in the work of creation. Rather, the world will continue according to its pattern. Although Isaiah 11:6 states: 'The wolf will dwell with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the young goat,' these words are a metaphor and a parable. The interpretation of the prophecy is as follows: Israel will dwell securely together with the wicked gentiles who are likened to a wolf and a leopard, as in the prophecy Jeremiah 5:6: 'A wolf from the wilderness shall spoil them and a leopard will stalk their cities.' They will all return to the true faith and no longer steal or destroy. Rather, they will eat permitted food at peace with Israel as Isaiah 11:7 states: 'The lion will eat straw like an ox.' Similarly, other Messianic prophecies of this nature are metaphors. In the Messianic era, everyone will realize which matters were implied by these metaphors and which allusions they contained.
Halacha 2
Our Sages taught: "There will be no difference between the current age and the Messianic era except the emancipation from our subjugation to the gentile kingdoms." The simple interpretation of the prophets' words appear to imply that the war of Gog and Magog will take place at the beginning of the Messianic age. Before the war of Gog and Magog, a prophet will arise to inspire Israel to be upright and prepare their hearts, as Malachi 3:22 states: 'Behold, I am sending you Elijah.' He will not come to declare the pure, impure, or to declare the impure, pure. He will not dispute the lineage of those presumed to be of proper pedigree, nor will he validate the pedigree of those whose lineage is presumed blemished. Rather, he will establish peace within the world as ibid. 3:24 continues: 'He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children." There are some Sages who say that Elijah's coming will precede the coming of the Mashiach. All these and similar matters cannot be definitely known by man until they occur for these matters are undefined in the prophets' words and even the wise men have no established tradition regarding these matters except their own interpretation of the verses. Therefore, there is a controversy among them regarding these matters. Regardless of the debate concerning these questions, neither the order of the occurrence of these events or their precise detail are among the fundamental principles of the faith. A person should not occupy himself with the Aggadotand homiletics concerning these and similar matters, nor should he consider them as essentials, for study of them will neither bring fear or love of God. Similarly, one should not try to determine the appointed time for Mashiach's coming. Our Sages declared: 'May the spirits of those who attempt to determine the time of Mashiach's coming expire!' Rather, one should await and believe in the general conception of the matter as explained.
Halacha 3
During the era of the Messianic king, once his kingdom has been established and all of Israel has gathered around him, the entire nation's line of descent will be established on the basis of his words and the prophetic spirit which will rest upon him, as Malachi 3:3 states: 'He shall sit as a refiner and purifier.' He will purify the lineage of the Levites first, stating 'He is a priest of defined lineage. He is a Levite of defined lineage.' Those whose lineage he will not recognize will be lowered to the status of Israelites. This is implied by Ezra 2:63: 'The governor said to them: 'They should not eat of the most holy things until a priest arises who will wear the urim vitumim.' From this verse, you can infer that the prophetic spirit will be used to define and notify the pedigree of lineage. When he defines the lineage of the Israelites, he will make known their tribal lineage alone, stating: 'He is from this tribe and he is from another tribe.' He will not, by contrast, state concerning a person who is presumed to be of unblemished lineage: 'He is illegitimate or he is of slave lineage.' For the law is once a family has become intermingled with the entire Jewish people, they may remain intermingled.
Halacha 4
The Sages and the prophets did not yearn for the Messianic era in order to have dominion over the entire world, to rule over the gentiles, to be exalted by the nations, or to eat, drink, and celebrate. Rather, they desired to be free to involve themselves in Torah and wisdom without any pressures or disturbances, so that they would merit the world to come, as explained in Hilchot Teshuvah.
Halacha 5
In that era, there will be neither famine or war, envy or competition for good will flow in abundance and all the delights will be freely available as dust. The occupation of the entire world will be solely to know God. Therefore, the Jews will be great sages and know the hidden matters, grasping the knowledge of their Creator according to the full extent of human potential, as Isaiah 11:9 states: 'The world will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the ocean bed." This completes Hilchot Melachim and the entire text. Blessed be He who spoke and the world came into being as a whole, with all its particulars. This concludes the fourteenth book, the Book of Judges. It contains five Halachot and eighty one chapters. Hilchot Sanhderin - 26 chapters, Hilchot Edut - 22 chapters, Hilchot Mamrim - 7 chapters, Hilchot Evel - 14 chapters, Hilchot Melachim - 12 chapters. In the entire text, there are Halachot and 982 chapters. Complete and perfect with praise to God, Creator of the World For a full online translation of the Mishneh Torah by Maimonides go to Chabad.org

"The bible does not say that there will be a seven year peace treaty it says it will confirm a covenant for one week and in the next verse it says that sacrifice and oblation will cease which means that the temple must be around."

A covenant-confirmed, a ceasing-sacrifice, and a present temple. Just when & what & Who might Daniel be prophesying of? It's not difficult! Unless you've been steeped in Scofieldism, aka dispensationalism.

I've not read every commentary on Daniel 9:25-27, but Matthew Henry is a good place to start. Most commentaries pre-19th century give no indication of what dispensationalism suggests that Daniel is speaking of in these verses.

But yet, most today hold to such erroneous views of dispensationalism.

Note: In the 2 Thessalonians passage there's nothing which would indicate that a 3rd temple is being referenced. Of course, as I said above, unless you've been steeped in Scofieldism, aka dispensationalism.

Time will bring to light the truth of these matters. In a similar manner as time brings to light the many false converts running to and fro upon the earth, which so many were convinced were true converts.

In many cases, time is such an accurate (💯%) revealer! ⏰

Read the verse :)

Whether you like it or not or believe it or not

The jews are going to build a third temple as you saw from my previous plans they can build it in a year as I have directly talked with them and they have an unsusual answer on how they want to get rid of the dome of the rock

This doctrine is like the doctrine of heaven and hell you may not believe it or not believe it

As in 2 thess 2 it is quite important as at least three signs give us a definitive sign that we know that it is the antichrist

1. The apostasy of the church as whatever that is reveals the antichrist to the church
2. The world and christians will know the antichrist by him sitting in the third temple
3. The beast being wounded and rehealed

I was not discussing covenental vs dispensational theology as that is a red herring

I actually brought up what every orthodox jewish person believes regarding there moshiah that he has to build the third temple and they wont accept him if he doesnt build the third temple

They have the plans, they have been practising animal sacrifices for years , they have been practising all the temple feast events. So literally the temple institute has everything to go other than the fact that they have not sacrificed the red heifer

You may say I dont believe in displensationalism , This has nothing to do with this subject as the Jews who want to build the temple dont care about dispensationalism they are orthodox jews they want to build the temple

Confirming a covenant , What covenant are they reaffirming such as the Mosiac covenant and from the next verse it says sacrifce and obilation shall cease. Nowhere did i say that it was a seven year peace treaty.

Looking at Matthew henry commentaries pre 19th century is bit of a stupid thing to do when you are in the 21st century when israel was founded in 1948.

The Jews will build the temple whether you like or not. As in Jewish Eschatology it is one of the signs of there messiah and believe they are ready. They could build the temple in one year just ask the temple insitute.

If youi even speak of the subject of Israel's coming spiritual restoration under Christ you are many times automatically assumed to be a dispensationalist. It ain't so but you can't speak with people about it mamny times they won't believe you. At any rate, here's Spurgeon and some of his thoughts.

CHARLES SPURGEON, a British Reformed Baptist preacher, is one of history’s most influential orators and theologians. Long before loud speakers, Spurgeon was drawing crowds of 10,000 to hear his plain-spoken, scripture-heavy sermons. Though he died 56 years before the birth of the modern state of Israel, the return of the Jews to the land of their covenant was something he foretold many times in his sermons. He was not the only prophetic voice calling for Israel’s physical and spiritual restoration in 19th century Britain but he was certainly an important one. Here are excerpts from three of Spurgeon’s sermons that offer clear statements on his theology and thinking in relation to the Jews and the Nation of Israel.

"THE CHURCH OF CHRIST” delivered on June 3, 1855 at New Park Street Chapel, Southward:

The hour is approaching, when the tribes shall go up to their own country; when Judea, so long a howling wilderness, shall once more blossom like the rose; when, if the temple itself be not restored, yet on Zion’s hill shall be raised some Christian building, where the chants of solemn praise shall be heard as erst of the old Psalms of David were sung in the Tabernacle . . .I think we do not attach sufficient importance to the restoration of the Jews. We do not think enough about it. But certainly, if there is anything promised in the Bible it is this. I imagine that you cannot read the Bible without seeing clearly that there is to be an actual restoration of the Children of Israel . . . For when the Jews are restored, the fullness of the Gentiles shall be gathered in; and as soon as they return, then Jesus will come upon Mount Zion with his ancients gloriously, and the halcyon days of the millennium shall then dawn; we shall then know every man to be a brother and a friend; Christ shall rule with universal sway.

"ONCE A CURSE BUT NOW A BLESSING” delivered on December 6, 1863 at the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington:

But the day is coming, yea it dawns already, when the whole world shall discern the true dignity of the chosen seed, and shall seek their company, because the Lord hath blessed them. In that day when Israel shall look upon him whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for their sins, the Jew shall take his true rank among the nations as an elder brother and a prince. The covenant made with Abraham, to bless all nations by his seed, is not revoked; heaven and earth shall pass away, but the chosen nation shall not be blotted out from the book of remembrance. The Lord hath not cast away his people; he has never given their mother a bill of divorcement; he has never put them away; in a little wrath he hath hidden his face from them, but with great mercies will he gather them. The natural branches shall again be engrafted into the olive together with the wild olive graftings from among the Gentiles. In the Jew, first and chiefly, shall grace triumph through the King of the Jews. O time, fly thou with rapid wing, and bring the auspicious day.

"THE RESTORATION AND CONVERSION OF THE JEWS” delivered on June 16, 1864 at the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington:

There will be a native government again; there will again be the form of a body politic; a state shall be incorporated, and a king shall reign. Israel has now become alienated from her own land. Her sons, though they can never forget the sacred dust of Palestine, yet die at a hopeless distance from her consecrated shores. But it shall not be so for ever, for her sons shall again rejoice in her: her land shall be called Beulah, for as a young man marrieth a virgin so shall her sons marry her. "I will place you in your own land,” is God’s promise to them . . . They are to have a national prosperity which shall make them famous; nay, so glorious shall they be that Egypt, and Tyre, and Greece, and Rome, shall all forget their glory in the greater splendour of the throne of David . . . I there be anything clear and plain, the literal sense and meaning of this passage ””a meaning not to be spirited or spiritualized away””must be evident that both the two and the ten tribes of Israel are to be restored to their own land, and that a king is to rule over them.

//The Jews will build the temple whether you like or not. As in Jewish Eschatology it is one of the signs of there messiah and believe they are ready.//

Why would you care about a false religion’s eschatology?

I don't care about it but Jewish people do and I can infer from 2 thess 2 and Daniel 9

There are alot of Jewish people who do
If people spend millions to build things like the menorah for the third temple they are serious

The thing is do you believe in Christian eschatology as the bible specifically says we need a third temple before the antichrist will come and the temple mentioned in 2 thess 2

These are the septigient uses of the word naous or temple

Exodus 25:8: "And let them make for me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them."
Leviticus 17:4: "In order that they may bring their sacrifices, whether ox or sheep, to the door of the tabernacle of witness, and they may offer them as sacrifices of peace offerings to the Lord."
Numbers 18:1: "And the Lord said to Aaron, 'You, your sons, and your father's house with you shall bear the iniquity of the priesthood; you and your sons alone shall come near to the sanctuary.'"
Joshua 22:19: "And Phinehas the priest said to the sons of Reuben, Gad, and Manasseh, 'Today you have declared your allegiance to the Lord, and so he will be with you

As the temple institute have plans , they have done the sacrifices they are all ready for the third temple and the only thing that is standing in the way is the dome of the rock which they want to remove

I have heard so many times that the word naous does not refer to a literal temple there is may one or two times where it can be translated that way in the new testament

The Jews want moshiah now and may get the antichrist or anti moshiah as the bible is a Jewish book

We are reading Jewish literature so Jewish eschatology does matter they just need to come jesus the Messiah and realise that he is the god man and came to die for our sins and believe he is a triune God , the same God of Abraham , ISSAc and Jacob

I was up on the temple mount area in September and the Muslims have left it in a really bad condition

I also went to the temple sifting project and as there is 400 lorry loads of soil that has biblical artifacts in it

Jesus is returning not to America but to Israel and to the mount of olives as he is the true Messiah :):):):):)

Dom,
You are not alone in your stance that the temple will be rebuilt. Jesus taught it.

Docs,
Adolf Safir (sp?), David Baron, and I think Andrew Bonar also were pretty solid on at least some of these matters.

I don't understand how just throwing in a random quip here and there just to prod at people (like subtracting from the conversation sniping about why anyone would care about Jewish eschatology) is beneficial.

An understanding of Islamic eschatology will shock you, especially how it is pretty much the evil side of biblical eschatology, except taught as good. It's pretty eye opening.

Thanks :)The reason I know abit about Jewish eschatoogy as the church I was involved in was in the heart of the jewish community in london and I have done my own research

I have done alot of research into the third temple even thou I dont want the antichrist to come as there are christians who are putting money to build the third temple which is wrong

Chris white his book on debunking the islamic antichrist goes into detail about islamic eschatology it is complicated :)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Islamic-Antichrist-Debunked-Comprehensive-Critique-ebook/dp/B00VR4NDF2/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3SSJES9KPQH4M&keywords=chris+white+antichrist&qid=1700948873&sprefix=chris+white+antichrist+%2Caps%2C74&sr=8-3

An interesting thing is that in Islamic Eschatology they believe that the Muslim Jesus is returning to the Mosque in Syria in Damascus which was built by Abdul Melech
The thing is the bible says that Damascus will be destroyed

It is interesting to see how different eschaotologyies come into play as the shias believe different than the sunnis as with the islamic eschtalogy view you have the MAhdi followed by the False Jesus followed by the Dajjal (False Antichrist)

Netflix had a show on called the Messiah and the Muslims called him Dajjal which is the islamic Antichrist

Then there is so many different views even among the jewish community about there messiah

I do believe the bible will win out
Most people dont even know christian eschatology that well let alone jewish or islamic escatology

we need to focus on jesus so we know the true so well that we will easily distingush the false

Homework homework TMK.

In Old Testament eschatology all roads led to the appearance of the Messiah and the day of the Lord. This OT "Jewish" eschatology formed formed the backdrop in which the NT church gave its eschatological proclamations. The day of the Lord is a prominent theme in the NT as well it was in the OT. Paul speaks of this day in II Thess 2:3. Also I Thessalonians 5:2-4. As stated, the day of the Lord was a prominent theme in the OT to which all was prophesied to lead and the early church stayed on the same track as the NT is replete with references to the day of the Lord - the "day of His revealing," the "day of His appearing" etc. The first advent of Christ did not cause OT eschatology to be scrapped. Far from it.

Homework.

Blessings.

Hi Todd,

Why would you care about a false religion’s eschatology?

I'm not sure what you mean here. I would be VERY careful before using such statements in such a flippant manner. Our Lord -- and none of the apostles -- walked around and declared that the Jews followed a "false religion."

In fact, I would argue that those who didn't believe in Jesus were INCOMPLETE in their faith. They lacked the central condition of righteousness -- faith -- and that in Christ Jesus. Remember the exhortation from Paul:

.......

19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their UNBELIEF, but you stand fast through FAITH.

SO DO NOT BECOME PROUD, BUT FEAR. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, FOR GOD HAS THE POWER TO GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN.

24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, THE NATURAL BRANCHES, be grafted back INTO THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE.

Romans 11:20-24 (ESV)

.......

I've heard some adherents of "replacement theology" use quite a bit of rhetorical hubris with their declarations. On a personal level, I think that most of us don't get our eschatology from Scofield, Matthew Henry, the 'Left Behind' writers or any other "-isms," "-ites," "-ists" or "-ics." Most of us eschew the doctrines and traditions of men in the hope of embracing only what is truth from Scripture.

When I read Scripture, I still see the gifts and calling of God on Israel. In regard to Israel, these are IRREVOCABLE (as the rest of Romans 11 clearly indicates). While all people -- Jews and Gentiles -- must call upon the name of the Lord to be saved, I've been lately disappointed by some rhetoric that comes from those "wild olive shoots" that have been grafted into this vine.

We should be gentle ambassadors of truth with the natural branches if we hope to see them grafted back into the vine.

Yes, I consider many portions of modern Judaism to be "traditions of men" (much of it little more than traditions passed down within the Talmud) than a faith based upon the truths of God as found in the Old Testament. However, these were man-made additions and/or extrapolations (i.e., traditions) of the Old Covenant rather than the Old Covenant itself.

This was something that Jesus encountered while he walked along the dusty roads in the Promised Land. He called out the Pharisees, Sadducees and Teachers of the Law for embracing their traditions above God. It blinded them from understanding the time of the Lord's visitation.

Some of those traditions are even rooted in Scripture. I think that it would be incorrect to dismiss what is clearly found in the Old Covenant as any sort of "false religion" -- including some of their own eschatology. After all, even the Magi (i.e., "magicians" from the East) held to some form of eschatology (*not clearly found in Scripture) for the Lord's birth that was accurate.

When it comes to the notion of a Temple, I think that this is because there is an apparent mention of a "holy place" in Biblical prophecy. Those who assume that this refers to (or ONLY to) what happened in 70 A.D. (when the Romans under Titus marched upon Jerusalem) have no doubt that this refers to the Second Temple. It is likely what the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews referred to with the priesthood.

Interestingly, Jesus died and resurrected around 30 A.D. The curtain was (literally) torn in two at Christ's death. This didn't happen without reason. Over the next 40 years, people no longer needed that Temple for any sort of atonement. The Old Covenant was still in operation; yet, the New Covenant superseded it.

Paul wrote to the Gentiles in Ephesus about this:

.......

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands”” 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, ALIENATED FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL and strangers to the COVENANTS OF PROMISE, having no hope and without God in the world.

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

17 And he came and preached peace TO YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF and peace TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR. 18 For through him WE BOTH have access in one Spirit to the Father.

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, GROWS INTO A HOLY TEMPLE in the Lord.

22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:11-22 (ESV)

.......

So, even by the time Paul wrote his epistle to the Ephesians, he pointed that the blood of Christ is what brings us near to God (and not the earthly Temple). It is generally accepted that Paul wrote this epistle during his first imprisonment in Rome -- between 60-62 A.D. This is between 8-10 years before the destruction of the Temple.

At that time, the Temple still stood. It still was central to the Levitical requirements of the Law of Moses (as ordained by God). This Temple service was not a "false religion." It was God-ordered. The author of Hebrews (perhaps Barnabas, Apollos or someone else) mentioned this as having still been practiced when the epistle was penned (particularly in Hebrews chapter 9).

Was the Temple a "holy place" at that point -- after the curtain was torn in two? The writer of Hebrews wrote, "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" (Hebrews 9:22 ESV). However, by this point, Christ had already shed his blood.

After all, the writer of Hebrews had immediately prior to this stated:

.......

13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Hebrews 9:13-17 (ESV)

.......

Thus, it was the death of Christ that established this new covenant. It wasn't the destruction of the Second Temple. It wasn't even the destruction of the Old Covenant but, rather, a NEW covenant that superseded it as a replacement for those who turn to faith in Christ Jesus.

Yet, there are "temples" written about in Ezekiel as well as in Revelation. Moreover, the city of Jerusalem is referred to as a "holy city" in Revelation 11. This despite the fact that the curtain was torn in 30 A.D.

By the way, I am fairly convinced that John wrote down his Revelation of Jesus Christ at around 95 A.D. This would be 65 years after the death and resurrection of our Lord. This would be 25 years after the destruction of the Second Temple (and much of Jerusalem). It was 28 years after Titus and his dad first marched into the Promised Land to destroy the first Jewish Revolt and roughly 22 years after that first revolt concluded at Masada.

As for the Olivet Discourse, I would point to what is written in Luke 21:20-24:

.......

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, TO FULFILL ALL THAT IS WRITTEN.

23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! FOR THERE WILL BE GREAT DISTRESS UPON THE EARTH AND WRATH AGAINST THIS PEOPLE.

24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke 21:20-24 (ESV)

.......

Notice that the language in Luke seems to indicate "great distress" that is "upon the EARTH" and "wrath" against this people (verse 23). This echoes the rhetoric found elsewhere describing a time of "great tribulation" that would "come upon the whole earth" (Revelation 3:10; 7:14).

It also echoes what Paul wrote about a "partial hardening" that has come upon Israel "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (Romans 11:25) before saying that, in this way, all of Israel will be saved (and clearly equating this 'Israel' with the one that is partially "hardened)."

Still, the prophecy in Daniel 6:24-27 mention sacrifice and offering being cut off. Given the scenario about the "weeks of Daniel" and how they are echoed in Revelation, it is my view that this is almost certainly referring to the period of the "Great Tribulation."

Does this mean that a third Temple will be built? I don't know. As you point out, the purpose of Levitical atonement (and its corresponding sacrifice) was superseded when Christ died. He was the "once and for all" sacrifice for the atonement of the whole world (only accessible by faith in Christ Jesus).

I understand that your interpretation of the "Olivet Discourse," John's Revelation, Old and New Testament eschatology and even "dispensationalism" (or a lack thereof) is somewhat different from many others. My personal rebuttal is similar -- particularly in a sense that I have never really been influenced by any teachers on this matter whatsoever.

Yet, after reading the Scriptures over and over and over again, I'm quite convinced of a purpose for physical "Israel" and the Promised Land in prophecy both the Old and New Testaments. I feel that while Jesus undoubtedly referred to the Romans in the Olivet Discourse, I also think that he spoke of things much further in time that were still yet to come.

John wrote of this earlier in his first epistle:

.......

18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

I John 2:18 (ESV)

.......

John mentions "many antichrists" as having already come while "antichrist" (or, potentially, "Antichrist") is coming. This would seemingly reinforce the idea of multiple antichrists in history -- possibly pertaining to an interpretation of "empires" and those who lead them (such as Nebuchadnezzar's dream and Daniel's later visions).

This would include the likes of Antiochus Epiphanes (the Greek king who desecrated the Temple) as well as Titus (who destroyed the Temple). Yet, the "Beast" and "False Prophet" of Revelation will be present at the Lord's return -- and they will be thrown "ALIVE" into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 19:20).

By the way, I do feel that the widely regarded time estimate for the writing of the first epistle of John is accurate. I've looked into "earlier authorship" claims many times. This is primarily because I've read/heard earlier authorship claims in other eschatological debates or writings. Often, they tend to align with the claimants' views on amillennialism and non-dispensationalist teachings. So, I looked into those claims.

Ultimately, I have found nothing -- absolutely nothing -- that would actually substantiate an early authorship argument for either the epistles of John or the Revelation. I've considered the arguments but I simply cannot find anything that is even remotely credible.

.......

*EDIT - Todd, my brother, I hope that I didn't come across as stern or off-putting. I know that you have some strongly held views that are both honest and only derived after much study. I'm just a bit concerned about how we can come across in such discussions. I know that I am often guilty of coming across that way too. God bless you, brother.

"Our Lord -- and none of the apostles -- walked around and declared that the Jews followed a "false religion"

Mark 7:6-9
Jesus answered them, "Isaiah prophesied correctly about you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. They worship Me in vain;
they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’ You have disregarded the commandment of God to keep the tradition of men””the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other similar things you do.” He went on to say, "You neatly set aside the command of God to maintain your own tradition.

John 8

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

_______________________________

If Jesus declares to you that your father is the devil, and that your worship is heartless and in vain, I think that that's a good indicator that He considered them to be following a false religion.

"...adherents of "replacement theology"

A better term would be "fulfillment theology."

Hi savannah,

Mark 7:6-9
Jesus answered them, "Isaiah prophesied correctly about you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. They worship Me in vain;
they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’ You have disregarded the commandment of God to keep the tradition of men””the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other similar things you do.” He went on to say, "You neatly set aside the command of God to maintain your own tradition.

John 8

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

_______________________________

If Jesus declares to you that your father is the devil, and that your worship is heartless and in vain, I think that that's a good indicator that He considered them to be following a false religion.

Notice that our Lord never stated that these hypocrites (and that is what they were) were adherents of a "false religion."

The notion that the "religion" (if that is the term someone might use) of the Old Testament is "false" is simply incorrect. The New Testament statements of our Lord in these passages don't consider the practice of the faith of the Old Covenant but the LACK of practice (i.e., hypocrisy) of the "commandment of God" due to holding instead to the tradition of men.

This is what I specifically addressed. Modern day "Judaism" -- from the time our Lord walked in the Promised Land until this present day -- was often tainted by individuals following extrabiblical traditions rather than the Word of God. Not everyone did this. There were "righteous" men who eschewed the tradition of MEN to follow the precepts of God as set forth in the Law and Prophets.

So, the issue wasn't with the Biblical precepts and but the lack of practice of those precepts in order to instead follow traditions of men.

To be very clear: All that you find in the Old Testament is not a "false religion" but precepts that were established by God. In the New Testament, many Bibles will include the words of Christ Jesus in red. If we did the same with the words spoken by God to Moses in the Old Testament, we would see quite a bit of red too.

In the Gospels, Jesus pointed out the hypocrisy of laying aside the pure Word of God by individuals who preferred traditions.

Jesus wasn't telling them that they followed a "false religion."

Jesus pointed out that they did NOT follow the Law and the Prophets because they hypocritically honored God in word only because loved their traditions and praise from men.

In speaking to King Agrippa, Paul wrote:

.......

4 "My manner of life from my youth, spent from the beginning among my own nation and in Jerusalem, is known by all the Jews. 5 They have known for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that according to the strictest party of OUR RELIGION I have lived as a Pharisee.

6 And now I stand here on trial because of my hope in the promise made by God to our fathers, 7 to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly worship night and day. And for this hope I am accused by Jews, O king!

8 Why is it thought incredible by any of you that God raises the dead?"

Acts 26:4-8 (ESV)

.......

A better term would be "fulfillment theology."

Yes!

I would say it is the "fulfillment truth."

I use "false religion” in the sense that no one’s Judaism will save them.

Obviously the OT, God-ordained Judaism, when practiced as commanded, was not a false religion. The system was destroyed in 70AD.

But it is today and there is no getting around that.

PS- can someone fix the text on this thread that has gone out of whack?

/"The system was destroyed in 70 AD./

But here we are today having come full circle. The nation was plundered and a large majority of it carried captive into the nations in 70 AD. Jesus said the vengance of the covenant was working against them was the reason for their decimation. There are the blessings of the covenant and the curses or vengance of the covenant for disobedience. After almost two thousand years many have returned to the very same land from whence their forefathers were expelled and the nation appeared again in much the same condition as it was when it was taken captive and expelled in 70 AD. As then, Jerusalem is now surrounded by hostile armies intent on its destruction and the wiping out of its inhabitants. Just like pre 70 AD. We are facing the very same scenario as occurred in 70 AD. And Christ has not returned. Why have we come full circle?

https://www.psephizo.com/biblical-studies/does-israel-have-a-divine-right-to-the-land/

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Does God really bless those who bless Israel?

https://youtu.be/yaM7BWpXfM4?feature=shared

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All promises to Israel fulfilled

https://scienceandbibleresearch.com/all-promises-to-israel-fulfilled.html

Hi Todd,

I use "false religion” in the sense that no one’s Judaism will save them.

The passage in Romans 11 points out this:

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19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 That is true. They were broken off BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBELIEF, but you stand fast THROUGH FAITH.

So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

23 And even they, IF THEY DO NOT CONTINUE IN THEIR UNBELIEF, WILL BE GRAFTED IN, for God has the power to graft them in again.

24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into THEIR OWN olive tree.

Romans 11:19-24 (ESV)

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It was about FAITH. Those who belonged to physical Israel (and have not come to Christ) did not fall because they belonged to a "false religion" but because they had UNBELIEF. It was because of unbelief that many of the elect fell in the wilderness before entering the Promised Land. It was because of unbelief that, when Jesus came to his own, his own received him not.

While I realize that the 70 A.D. is a key historical date (due to the destruction of the Second Temple), the Law had ALREADY been superseded by a new covenant roughly 40 years prior to this. The curtain was torn in two in 30 A.D. and not 70 A.D.

Moreover, I would argue that the traditions of men had already convoluted those who were recipients of the Old Covenant long before the death and resurrection of our Lord. The traditions of the rabbis and the Talmud had already meandered outside Biblical truth into the realm of tradition. This was a primary point of contention in the Lord's statements to the Pharisees, Sadducees and teachers of the Law.

Consider the different sects at the time of Christ:

PHARISEES: According to Paul (who was also trained as a Pharisee), he lived as a Pharisee which he said was, "the strictest party of OUR RELIGION" (Acts 26:5). When Jesus cast out demons, it was the Pharisees who claimed that he cast out demons by Beelzebul (Matthew 12:23-25).

According to Encyclopedia Britannica:

The Pharisees were primarily not a political party but a society of scholars and pietists. They enjoyed a large popular following, and in the New Testament they appear as spokesmen for the majority of the population. About 100 BCE a long struggle ensued as the Pharisees tried to democratize the Jewish religion and remove it from the control of the Temple priests.

The Pharisees asserted that God could and should be worshipped even away from the Temple and outside Jerusalem. To the Pharisees, worship consisted not in bloody sacrifices””the practice of the Temple priests””but in prayer and in the study of God’s law. Hence, the Pharisees fostered the synagogue as an institution of religious worship, outside and separate from the Temple. The synagogue may thus be considered a Pharasaic institution, since the Pharisees developed it, raised it to high eminence, and gave it a central place in Jewish religious life.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Pharisee

SADDUCEES: They didn't believe in a resurrection or spiritual beings. It was the Sadducees that Jesus said were in error because they "know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God" (Matthew 22:29-33). This is similar to quite a few Jewish people today who identify as "cultural Jews" because they acknowledge personal agnosticism or even atheism.

According to Encyclopedia Brittanica:

Not much is known of the Sadducees’ origin and early history, but their name may be derived from that of Zadok, who was high priest in the time of Kings David and Solomon. Ezekiel later selected this family as worthy of being entrusted with control of the Temple, and Zadokites formed the Temple hierarchy down to the 2nd century BCE.

The Sadducees were the party of high priests, aristocratic families, and merchants””the wealthier elements of the population. They came under the influence of Hellenism, tended to have good relations with the Roman rulers of Palestine, and generally represented the conservative view within Judaism.

While their rivals, the Pharisees, claimed the authority of piety and learning, the Sadducees claimed that of birth and social and economic position. During the long period of the two parties’ struggle””which lasted until the Romans’ destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE””the Sadducees dominated the Temple and its priesthood.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Sadducee

There were other groups too:

HERODIANS: These were political loyalists to the Greek-appointed and Roman-acknowledge king over the Jews. At the time of the Lord's visitation, many were awaiting a Messiah. The Herodians entertained the notion that Herod -- and not the Son of David -- might be the Messiah who would restore the kingdom to Israel. They were often lumped with the Pharisees.

SCRIBES (Teachers of the Law): Less is explained in Scripture regarding these. The main idea is that they were individuals intent on interpreting the Law to the people. However, in the New Testament, they were most often appearing together with Pharisees. When Jesus spoke to and rebuked them, he often lumped the scribes together with the Pharisees.

ESSENES: This mysterious sect is mostly known as the group that (most likely) preserved the Dead Sea Scrolls. They were essentially pious outsiders who differed from the Pharisees and Sadducees -- believing that much of their practice had been perverted. Even their calendar differed from that of the Pharisees. Like the Pharisees, the Essenes already stood in contrast to a "Temple-focused" adherence to the Law. Rather, they focused upon a "restoration" of observance of the Covenant Law outside (or for life outside of) of Temple until the Messiah arrived (which they were imminently expecting at roughly the time Jesus was born).

Consider the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:20:

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17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I tell you, UNLESS YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS EXCEEDS THAT OF THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 5:17-20 (ESV)

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How does our righteousness exceed the Scribes and Pharisees? It was all about FAITH. Why? Even prior to the Old Covenant, "Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was credited to him as righteousness" (Genesis 15:6) -- quoted several times by Paul and also by James.

When you consider Jesus's rebuke of the Sadducees (that they knew neither the Scripture or the "power of God"), then what Paul wrote in Romans 1 makes even more sense:

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16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for IT IS THE POWER OF GOD FOR SALVATION TO EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live BY FAITH.”

Romans 1:16-17 (ESV)

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In saying that "the righteous shall live by faith," Paul was quoting Habakkuk (1:4) in a passage that the prophet foretells of the Lord gathering together for himself "all nations" and as his own "all peoples" (1:5).

Consider another group -- who were very despised by the Jews -- who resided in the Promised Land at the time of Jesus.

SAMARITANS: These were a group of people -- probably resettled refugees (likely by the Assyrians and Babylonians) who intermarried and intermingled in the Promised Land. They had a tendency to add to and take away from the Word of God so that it would take an emphasis off of physical Israel and more onto practice too.

Whereas the Pharisees and (possibly) the Essenes focused upon adherence for all of the days outside of the Temple (daily life throughout the rest of each year), the Samaritans eschewed the Temple in Jerusalem completely. They believed that the Mountain of Blessing (Mt. Gerizim) was the central place of worship. They had their own temple built there - -and added an additional commandment to their version of the Ten Commandments that directed worship atop Mt. Gerizim.

The Samaritans had built their own temple atop Mt. Gerizim and made it central to their own practice. Yet, it was destroyed around 112 B.C. during the time of the Maccabees. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:

Among the most significant differences between the Samaritans and the Jews is the site which they believe God chose for his dwelling. While the Jews hold that God chose Mount Zion in Jerusalem, Samaritans believe he chose Mount Gerizim near Shechem. After the Babylonian Exile, the Samaritans built a temple on Mount Gerizim, and the Jews built a temple on Mount Zion (see Temple of Jerusalem).

This remained a considerable matter of dispute between the two communities, and, in the 2nd century BCE, the temple on Mount Gerizim was destroyed by the Maccabean ruler John Hyrcanus (reigned 135/134”“104 BCE). The low esteem that Jews had for the Samaritans was the background of Christ’s famous parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25”“37).

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Samaritan

The interesting thing (and the reason why I wrote all of this) is to focus upon what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well in the book of John. She was pointing out the differences in temple worship -- whether Mt. Gerizim or the Temple in Jerusalem.

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19 The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.”

21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain NOR IN JERUSALEM will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, AND IS NOW HERE, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you AM HE.”

John 4:19-26 (ESV)

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The point behind all of this (what I wrote) is that Jesus told her that "the hour is coming, AND IS NOW HERE" when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth (John 4:22-23).

It didn't require the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 A.D. for this to come about. It was already true when Jesus spoke with this Samaritan woman. I would go so far as to say that it was ALWAYS there -- because God was always seeking those who would worship Him in spirit and in truth. This is the basis of true faith and the righteousness that is found by it.

So, this was always the basis of faith. There were individuals who were deemed "righteous" in the Old Testament. However, that righteousness -- as with Abraham -- only came by "believing God" (i.e., faith). It was true under the Old Covenant and it is true under this New Covenant. The "faith chapter" of Hebrews 11 references this.

It didn't matter if a person was a part of the "chosen people" of (physical) Israel. They still needed faith to come to God. When they didn't come to God, God came to them -- in the flesh. He became the ultimate atoning sacrifice.

At that point, the curtain was torn in two and the atoning blood of Christ superseded any need for the bulls and goats. This wasn't accomplished by the destruction of the Second Temple (in 70 A.D.) any more than the First Temple (which was robbed, looted and plundered even before its ultimate destruction). What mattered was faith in God -- because it is faith that produces righteousness. It was unbelief -- which predicated idolatry -- that had led to the destruction of the First Temple and captivity.

Moreover, even prior to 70 A.D., that system had already become so political that the various sects were moving away from Second Temple focal adherence. The Pharisees, Essenes and Samaritans had all moved away from it -- even if the Pharisees and Essenes still acknowledged that the Temple itself sat upon a "holy place" (i.e., Mt. Moriah) as clarified in 2 Chronicles 3:1.

Long before construction of the Temple, this place was where Abraham offered up his "only" son Isaac as a sacrifice. It was also the same place which was purchased by David and where the king offered up his sacrifice to atone for the census of Israel. So, there was faith on that mountain before the Tabernacle or Temple -- types and shadows of what was in Heaven -- was ever constructed.

Keith Malcolmson from Limerick City church Ireland
did some great teachings on Israel and Gaza recently
Here are 2

God's Purpose for Israel - Keith Malcomson
https://youtu.be/GW_xhBQ9cKk

God's Purpose for Gaza - Keith Malcomson
https://youtu.be/PjRLVIp-tGQ

I think a sentimental love for Israel will not carry us through in the process of upcoming events, not everything about them is lovable, they are a fallen nation, and like it or not they are God's chosen nation, chosen people, and promised land through which he will fulfil his purposes and conclude history.

Keith states if you as a believer do not have a love for Israel, something is not quite aligned yet in you.

If Paul loved the Jews who persecuted him and Jesus wept over Jerusalem, why not we?

I understand and agree with all that Chris. But many Christians seem to WANT a third temple built. I don’t see how that is any different than wanting a new mosque built. Why would God want a third temple built?

I do understand that some will say that God doesn’t necessarily want a third temple built but that a third temple was nonetheless prophesied. Who knows, maybe it was but I strongly doubt it.

Just like folks say the Gog Magog war is yet future, even though Ez. 38 talks about soldiers attacking on horses with swords and shields.

Maybe you didn't understand the nature of my post

No Christian wants the third temple built as that would bring the antichrist

It is going to happen whether I like it or not as it is prophecied in scripture

I have shown verses where it will happen and I have even shown plans from the temple institute who have plans for the third temple down to the small details

The temple institute will build the third temple without any Christians help

It is like the aspect of Christians wanting to go through the great tribulation because I do not believe in a pre tribulation rapture, it is what the biblical evidence says and whether I like it or not it will happen

I believe the Magog and gog war is at the end of the millennium as it says in revelation 20

I disagree with the aspect of replacement theology and the whole thing to do with fulfillment theology is a farse as there are numerous passages

As if you look at the actual historical accounts from the original sources it is vastly different

//I do understand that some will say that God doesn’t necessarily want a third temple built but that a third temple was nonetheless prophesied. Who knows, maybe it was but I strongly doubt it. //

So the Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah and are still waiting for the Messiah to come. They believe he will rebuild the temple. Just to be clear, they don't believe he will by himself build the temple, rather, he will orchestrate and oversee the building of the temple.

And yes, God does not want another temple to be built. Jesus fulfilled and completed all the sacrificial and atoning work that needed to be done. But again, the Jews don't know this. They are deceived and will be deceived by the false-messiah (anti-christ).

They will build another temple there in Jerusalem and even though it was not commissioned by God, nevertheless it will be built unto and dedicated holy unto the Lord. And here is the thing that I'm sure some will not accept: The desecration of this new temple will be as if it were the true temple of God because that is how the Jews and anti-christ will view it. Therefore, the abomination that makes desolate.

-Daniel

//And here is the thing that I'm sure some will not accept: The desecration of this new temple will be as if it were the true temple of God because that is how the Jews and anti-christ will view it//

Hey Daniel not sure if I am tracking you here. Are you saying that God will be offended by this "desecration,” or just the Jews at that time?

I think that since both the Jews and the antichrist will view and treat that 3rd temple as the temple of God, and the antichrist will commit the most blasphemous thing possible when he declares himself to be God in that temple, that God will take extreme offense to these horrible atrocities.

When it comes to eschatology, some details like what I have posted here are not something that I would consider to be 'essential' and worth fighting about. I am fairly tolerant of others' views on eschatology unless it involves believing that Jesus has already come again. I know that you Todd are a partial-preterist. It's not how I see things but I see you as a dear brother in Christ and I usually agree with most of your posts outside of this one issue.

EDIT: And it could be that God is offended just by the antichrist declaring himself to be God regardless of where he says such a thing. But the 3rd temple is key to getting the Jews to fall for the false-messiah (antichrist).

-Daniel

With the third temple as I have heard so many different views on the fact that this is the church when it refers to the passage in 2 thess 2

My problem is with this is that these are the plans for the actual third temple

The third temple plans have become from the temple institute
https://youtu.be/A2IkxmwkayM?si=eBLX4s7dLz-vuJXR

It is essential to Jewish eschatology that the anti-christ builds the third temple, they will not accept a Messiah who does not

Sacrifices have already commenced

What it made me think of the difference between objective and subjective truth

I may not like the doctrines of heaven and hell but that does not make them less true as they are places that God has made and exist whether i want them or not and I don't want to go to hell

As a Christian I believe I am going through the tribulation it is not a doctrine that I like rather it is what the bible says , my personal preference doesn't have anything to do with it

There are things we do not like it the bible that doesn't make them not true

Something that is true is objective rather than subjective

I always use the example I can believe a bus does not exist but that doesn't make the fact that the bus will kill me no matter if I stand in front of it

Truth is truth

You become a lot more stronger Christian if you read the parts of the bible you dont tend to like or are hard

With the whole aspect of the third temple I think they spent massive amounts of money building the golden menorah like 25 million dollars and for all the other equipment they need for the temple they are not going back