Warning from Pastor John Kilpatrick

https://churchofhispresence.subspla.sh/652dx9z

https://youtu.be/ckIGW2g0_cs?si=SMJ0Z9HB1k1_oKY-

In Him
Sister Frannie

I listened to the message, it was timely and prophetic, yet rightly expounding the scriptures as teachers do.

Only one little place that is a common trait to pentecostals, and that is where he mentioned that Jesus went into hell between after his death and before his resurrection.

Jesus did not go to hell, he went to the souls in hades and preached the gospel.

John Kilpatrick is yet another preacher who was at the "Toronto Blessing" and spreads drunkenness manifestations. He has ties to the prosperity gospel.

Beware teachers like this.

Even the devil can say things that are true.

Hi All,
I have to try and be honest I cant see that we have had anymore earthquakes or volcanos than any other time.If you are going to give a prophesy then be specific ,this just looks like vagueness,
urs staff

We need more "preachers" and less "teachers."

I am sorry, but I could not disagree with any statement more than this one. One of the primary, if not THE primary problem in the church today is Biblical illiteracy. We have a lot of preachers that are passionately declaring all kinds of things and it is leading the church into the weeds right now. We have few who can rightly divide and teach the word so that people can understand and be transformed by the truth. We need less people preaching their own ideas and more people laboring in the word and in prayer to teach the truth and equip the saints.

It concerns me deeply that teaching is castigated as "intellectualism" and "unspiritual", while preaching with passion is elevated as somehow more "spiritual". It will lead nowhere good for sure.

Nigel: I must agree with you. Mr. Kilpatrick has a history of false prophecy, including proclaiming that God told him there would be no election fraud or anything of the sort in the 2000 presidential election in the US. Apparently God was wrong, or Mr. Kilpatrick is speaking falsely. He is part and parcel to a group of people who have a history of grossly misrepresenting scripture and who also speak vague prophecies that are meaningless and that have a proven track record of failing miserably when they do claim to speak for God. They are the sort that scripture calls clouds without water. I would avoid Kilpatrick personally. His "words from God" are simply man's imagination and are not reliable.

Travis and Niegel,

I was going to stay out of this but now that Travis has voiced his opinion, I want to say that you are both in error. I have followed this man’s ministry for many years. He might have missed it in some areas, but he is not a false prophet and he is an excellent teacher.

Thank you Nigel and Travis for your warnings
Totally agree

May the Lord show mercy

Markus

Mike,

If speaking false prophecies does not make you a false prophet... What exactly does?

I think we ignore a foundational axiom in our regard for, and our seeking honor of men, that "A" cannot be "non A". A false prophet cannot be a true prophet.

A man claims to be a prophet; the man speaks a false prophecy; the man is a true prophet... This syllogism is fanatical and fallacious.

Forgive my simplicity, but that is just basic, logical thought.

"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:20-22

I refuse to be afraid of men like these, or be cowed by threats that I am "touching the Lord's anointed" or committing the unforgivable sin by using my critical thinking faculties. If their practices and teachings cannot be found in the Bible, I reject them.

Kilpatrick "prophesied" to Hank Hanegraaf during the Pensacola outpouring that if he didn't stop being critical of the outpouring God would "bring him down" within 90 days. It of course did not happen.

Hi Drifter,
I believe in Prophesy in the Church but its very hard to take this nonsense and its hard to watch the Church being given the run around and Prophesy being given a bad rap,
urs staff

Doesn't it seem like the majority of prophesy spoken of in the NT isn't about predicting future events but rather about encouraging the church to pursue the things of God and to flee the things of the world when it needs as the extant case may be through either or both admonitions and rebukes ? Like ES has said, way too much of what is called prophetic is about fortune telling or if it's right, words of knowledge. This most likely because of the wow factor of signs and wonder and its attraction.

There are obviously times when God wants to let people know what He is about to do. Most prophesy though, even in the OT, is either to direct His people to go (physically or spiritually) in a certain direction or to grow in a certain way. Our fleshly desires prefer the wow of grand predictions and so you have them gathering around or to themselves those who can tickle.

Prophesy is for building up and the signs and wonders kind of fortelling as God wills can add to that, but the substance and the meat of prophesy is for instruction, correction and rebuke to particular congregations in particular spiritual settings.

We need to correct the prophetic world in this as we are given opportunity because the local church sorely needs God using local everyday people prophesying in local everyday ways so that Christ's people can grow to maturity and the fullness of Him.

This prophetic ministry we see today is not the one Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 12-14. It just isn't. It's often showy and often just attention seeking and attention getting unfortunately and ultimately, when it goes wrong, as it often does, not just in predictive accuracy but also in moral failures, the signs and wonders wow factor has the opposite effect intended of making people disappointed, disillusioned and ultimately very Discouraged. I'm not advocating stoning the false prophet. Just realize the prevalence of future telling prophecy compared to actual words designed and sent for spiritual building up is way out of whack in terms of Scriptural support. At least on YouTube and in my experience, even in Charismatic churches, this seems so.

God gave prophets so that they could equip the saints for them to do the work of ministry to build each other up in loving truth spoken amongst themselves. The Scripture says that is why God gave the church prophets. Where is that prophetic ministry of equipping saints to build one another up? This other stuff has to pass that test and not just the accuracy test.

Robert, I agree with you that most prophesy is for the building up of the Body of Christ. There is prophesy of future events and many well known prophets like David Wilkerson were used by God in this area.

John Kilpatrick had a prophesy concerning 911. Many true prophets of God have accurately prophesied concerning future events but have got the timing wrong. As Michael Brown has said, if someone that is called to prophetic ministry misses it on a prophesy, by prophesying out of his soul, it doesn’t make them a false prophet. This is why it is so unjust to be calling John Kilpatrick a false prophet when you are getting information from heresy Hunter websites and more than likely have never even listened to an entire message by him. I have listened to messages and been in meetings where John Kilpatrick spoke for at least 25 years now. I am not boasting, but since some on these forums portray themselves as experts as to who is a false prophet, I will boast in the Lord that I have been putting the Word of God in my heart for 50 years now, and can discern the true from the false in most cases.

I agree staff and Robert.

When I read about the ministry of the greatest of the prophets (according to Jesus), John the Baptist, he did no miracles and didn't predict future events.

The only thing he did was bring many, many people to real repentance, and point people to the Lamb of God.

Mike, may I have the link to John Kilpatrick's prophesy concerning September 11th, since I can't find it by Google search?

Hi Mike.

I don’t know John K. I wasn’t referring to him. Just responding to general comments made on this post about the false and not specifically to him. His preaching seemed fine. Don’t know his past predictions.

Mike, I’m interested in your radio ministry concerning prophesy. How many people on your show speak of the Ephesians 4 ministry they do and how many speak of future events and great movements as compared to day in/day out building up ? I’m not accusing. Just interested in audience interest percentage wise for the one or the other.

Another reason I ask is that when people are attracted to or predisposed to particular kind of future then the counterfeit and enemy have an easier target and path.

This is why it is so unjust to be calling John Kilpatrick a false prophet when you are getting information from heresy Hunter websites and more than likely have never even listened to an entire message by him.

Mike: Just for the record, I have never heard any "heresy hunters" speak about John K. I went to his website and listened to what he posted. It does not take much perusing his own youtube videos and his own website to discern who he holds in high regard as accurate prophets and to hear what he is actually saying. In one sermon he talks about God giving him prophetic words and anyone who does not heed his words will answer to God and miss out on the good things that will come by heeding his prophecy.

I cannot speak to his past. I am not saying he is insincere. But I do know that he claimed that God said, yet God did not say, and it all went down very opposite to what he claimed God said. The pronunciation of judgement on those who do not listen to him is manipulative at best, especially given that it can be demonstrated that God did not say what John claims God said.

I believe strongly in prophecy, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, and the rest of the gifts. I am a continuationist. I am NOT a restorationist. these things have never ceased since the day of Pentacost. But they must be judged, scripture is clear. Let the prophets speak one after another, and let the others judge.

John K., along with others, are a never ending fountain of "prophecies". It is what keeps people hooked and keeps their ministries afloat. It is like youtube clickbait. It is usually vague, generalized, and much like fortune telling. Not at all like what we see modeled in scripture.

I even heard John give a prophecy that he said was very important and critical. He then began to say that we would soon see people who had held positions in all areas of life out of those positions and new people put in. Those were his words and it was really this vague. This is life. People are ALWAYS moving out of positions and younger people taking their place. This was not God, and this was not prophecy. It was vagaries dressed up in prophetic language and tone.

There is a trend in the charismatic church right now that is getting way off in the weeds and quickly departing from the true gospel. I am not impressed by prophecies, nor am I impressed by signs and wonders. I have experienced the genuine. It is awesome. But it is not what I am seeing from these men.

Robert, in the five years that I have done the program on the radio I very seldom talk about prophecy nor have guests on the program that talk about prophecy.

I mainly interview leaders and pastors, and we have discussions on various things, and the main purpose of these interviews is to discuss the word, prayer, and revival. The gifts of the Spirit, signs and wonders are not the main thing. The fruit of the Spirit, spiritual growth, the fullness of Christ, and unity in the Body of Christ, are some of the main things that are discussed, and we do teachings along those lines.

The main calling of God on my life is prayer and intercession, and we are prayer leaders in prayer meetings in DeQuincy Louisiana, and also in our church, which is a house of prayer.

In answering your question about prophecy. We sometimes talk about future events as taught in the word, but we also talk about various prophecies, especially the ones that are of the great revival move of God and awakening that is coming.

the main purpose of these interviews is to discuss the word, prayer, and revival. The gifts of the Spirit, signs and wonders are not the main thing. The fruit of the Spirit, spiritual growth, the fullness of Christ, and unity in the Body of Christ, are some of the main things that are discussed, and we do teachings along those lines.

AMEN!

First off, has anyone who is disagreeing John Kilpatrick even listened to this particular sermon?

Set aside your opinions of whatever you believe a prophet is, the question at hand is: have you listened to this sermon?

What is your opinion on "the earth is speaking."

What is your opinion on how lawlessness and sin in the land affecting the earth?

Let's start here!!

Romans 8 is a text about the earth and all creation groaning; like Paul groans and the Holy Spirit groans, until Christ is formed in or the glory of God is revealed in His children. That passage is about the conforming work of God.s purpose and Christ's and the Spirit's work is accomplished until righteousness is formed in His people. It is less about sin and the earth crying out and more about spiritual formation and the yearning for that work to be completed.

As for the earth going through convulsions, this is the birth pangs growing and increasing for God's coming judgment. God judged with earthquakes, famine, sword and pestilence. Sin didn't cause it, God does as an active form of judgment against sin. It's not a "speaking" as much as it is a just and preliminary punishment

The earth isn't speaking. God is. Agree with John K's message but his language is not as clear on what is going on as actual Scripture. I'm not being unnecessarily nitpicking. getting Romans 8 right on the groaning going on goes to the heart of God's eternal plan and Christ's suffering.

I have nothing negative to say about the man, but you asked for response on the sermon.

I listened to the first 18 minutes. In those 18 minutes he quoted six passages of scripture. Without exception he ripped every single one of them grossly out of context to make them say things they do not at all say. In one case he even made up out of whole cloth the fact that the "land" mourns (the actual ball of rock itself) when scripture clearly talks only about God having an issue with the people of Israel.

Also in that 18 minutes he uses Romans 8 to bring forth the "manifested sons" doctrine, which also takes Romans 8 grossly out of context.

I just cannot continue listening. His basic premise is based upon twisting scripture to make it say what he saw in his "vision".

I'm sorry, but I stand by my statement. Avoid this guy. He will lead you astray.

Amen Travis.

I only listened to the one sermon and found the essence of his treatment of Scripture to be wrong. I didn’t listen to more sermons so as to draw the overall conclusion about the work he does regularly.

Brother Greg :

A preacher who doesn’t teach well will produce sermons that don’t preach well. Your distinction between teaching and preaching isn’t helpful.

Sister Lysa
This is my online pastor. If He shares something I Believe it is from GOD.. You all have to pray about it.. I am only on here if the HOLY GHost tells me to. I obeyed...
. So all words must be judged. I cor 13, 14.. All words must bare witness and come to pass.. SO Pray Judge receive or not.. Im just a messenger... Blessing to all
Happy New Year..
in Obedience
Sister Frannie

Psalm 105:15-17
King James Version
15 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
I will not debate here. This is my Pastor and I trust Him and Im sure the LORD does that is why He gave him the blessing of the Brownsville revival.. SO SO Sad the church cuts people up like the world.. Brothers and Sister on here want revival. I believe it starts with us... if we keep acting like the world.. the church determines how the world sees us.. So Im not going to listen to any more negativity... James teaches us where does strife and division come from????
As for me I am a women in jail ministry..
Because Jesus Trusts me.. I fall short but love people where they are this is sad.....
Mary Magdeline was the first evangelist thats what my bible says. Perhaps this is why Jesus had her go to the Apostles when Jesus was at the tomb Mary Magdeline was there and I believe she was there at the cross..
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene John 20:
11 Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12 and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

13 They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?”

"They have taken my Lord away,” she said, "and I don’t know where they have put him.” 14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

15 He asked her, "Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”

Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

16 Jesus said to her, "Mary.”

She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!” (which means "Teacher”).

17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.

Read full chapter Where is the LOVE here???? I dont come here alot due to comments like this.
Father I thank u for my Pastor John Kilpatrick I pray you bless him and his family. I thank u that he warns people and supports Israel. I thank you no weapon formed against him and his family shall prosper Bless and protect Him with your angelic Hosts in faith in Jesus mighty name...
Psalm 105:15-17
King James Version
15 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
In HIM
Sister Frannie

Sis. Frannie:

I know some people who are Mormons (LDS). They are some of the most wonderful people in the world. They would do anything for anyone in need, and much of what they say is good. But where their doctrine and interpretation of the Bible is concerned, they are heretical and teach a completely false message that God condemns. The fact that I would say this about them does not mean that I do not love them. It means that I love the truth.

I would say some similar things of Mr. Kilpatrick. We are to judge what people teach. When I teach, it should be judged. I am not talking about simple errors or areas of doctrine where believers ligitimately disagree as to the proper application of scripture. I am talking about pulling scripture out of context to make it say what it does not say. It is not unloving to judge what he teaches. It is unloving to see the error and not make people aware of the error, especially if the error could lead those people astray. If we love the truth, we will be jealous to see the truth proclaimed and error identified.

Paul commanded the Roman believers to mark and avoid those who taught a gospel that was different from what He had delievered to them. Paul called out error and named those who taught it when writing to Timothy. I would never accuse Paul of not having love for others. But Paul loved the truth and was diligent in its proclamation and in identifying error and making it known so that others would not believe error.

I am confident that if I sat down to dinner with John Kilpatrick, I would probably like the man. I am sure that God has used him. But what he taught in that sermon was a twisting of scripture and the doctrine he currently espouses, that of the New Apostolic Reformation and dominionism is patently unBiblical and is error in my opinion.

I understand what it means to have loyalty where a leader is concerned. My great grandfather knew the Parham's personally and ministered alongside of them. I have great reason to have a loyalty to Parham and what he taught. I grew up at the feet of the people that he ministered to personally. Yet, I have to admit that there were some serious errors in some things he taught, and I would have to call those out honestly because truth is important.

I would caution anyone against loyalty to a man, no matter how great a pastor or teacher he may seem to be. Many people had intense loyalty to Mike Bickle. I have known many people who would have sworn that whatever he taught was absolutely from the Holy Spirit. And yet it has been shown that for most of IHOP's existence he has lived a double life. He started the movement on the "prophetic" word of a man who has been proven beyond any shadow of a doubt to be a false prophet. I am not saying the same of John Kilpatrick. Far from it. My understanding is that he has lived a VERY upright and honorable life. My point is that it is not wise to have too great a loyalty placed in any leader. Be loyal to the truth. Respect men who teach it faithfully. But be like the Berean Jews and carefully compare what is said to scripture to see if it is really so. Remember, they were commended for questioning an Apostle (Paul) who was specifically appointed by God to bring the truth of the New Covenant to the entire Gentile world.

Psalm 105 is about Israel. Granted, many promises given to Israel belong to christians also. I believe Psalm 105 can apply to christians as well; not just pastors, or the "anointed man of God", but to every christian. But so many christians remind me of a jack in the box, popping out, quoting this verse and maybe "judge not" (completely out of context, by the way), and popping back in, insulating themselves from any critical thinking or Biblical discernment.

I've known people from many different religious persuasions over the years. By far the hardest to reach are the people trapped in prosperity/NAR cults. It's so insidious the way they are told by their leaders to not listen to any criticism of them, because if they do, they may be "touching the Lord's anointed" and bring a curse on themselves. This is a classic cult tactic employed to shut down critical thinking.

Nigel: I agree with you. Here is another one of those doctrines that has a built in insulating and isolating effect. Almost all of the teachers in this movement teach on, "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." out of Proverbs chapter 23. They do not properly read it in context. They apply it the way the New Thought practitioner and author James Allen applied it, that your life goes the way of your thoughts. They say your thoughts actually create your reality by creating faith. They teach that it is vitally important that you do not listen to anyone who brings doubt or unbelief into your thoughts, so you should not fellowship with people who could do this to you. This causes you to reject and avoid anyone who would disagree with what you are trying to have faith for and effectively insulates you against ever having their doctrine challenged in your mind. I have seen this play out over and over again.

There's wisdom and Grace and mercy on what Greg said here .

Thank God that Jesus treated us with patients and Mercy, much more then we treat each other with.

Dispelling the Myths About NAR - Michael Brown

https://thelineoffire.org/article/dispelling-the-myths-about-nar-the-new-apostolic-reformation

I remember during the Brownsville revival someone asked David Wilkerson about Steve Hill being a phony, and David Wilkerson who knew Steve Hill, said Steve Hill is not a phony or fake. That’s not his exact words, but that’s what was implied. Steve Hill was a powerful evangelist with a heart for souls who preached repentance , and every night, the conviction of the Holy Spirit was there at Brownsville and you had literally hundreds of people running to the altar to repent and receive Jesus ,and over the course of that revival thousands of people got saved. Many backsliders returned to the Lord.

The Brownsville revival wasn’t perfect, but there was strong leadership there, John Kilpatrick was a godly pastor, and there were other mature leaders there such as Michael Brown.

I know many godly men that are involved in the new apostolic reformation, and most of the stuff that I’ve heard concerning that from critics is false, it’s not even true. I also have many friends that were involved with the Vineyard. I have known pastors that are Vineyard pastors, godly men, that preach the Word of God . One of these pastors would go into the Federal Detention Center with me to minister to men from countries all over the world. He loved God and loved people, and made many trips to Pensacola to be refreshed by the presence of the Lord.

I don’t agree with a lot of what is being taught in the Word of faith movement. I went through that movement, and there were some that got in error over a false prosperity message that was preached., but I also know that men like Kenneth Hagan were true servants of the Lord and preached a balanced message. I did not agree with everything that he taught but he wasn’t a false teacher. He even tried to bring correction to the teachers that went to the extremes on the prosperity message. When people judge a man or a movement or a revival by the extremes, most of the time they end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The devil wants to derail every true man of God, every true revival, every true movement, and some men of God that were mightily used by God have experienced moral failures or got into error. Some have had true repentance and have been restored.

Greg (and anyone who subscribes to his opinion),

The mere fact that the "church" is resorting to spiritual pragmatism is a sure sign that we are in fact smack in the middle of the greatest time of apostasy the world will ever see.

Nothing has changed since Jesus resurrection, and if your message doesn't work anymore, than whether you like it or not, it was never true in the first place.

The idea that we should overlook things that are blatantly false is so foreign to the new testament I can't even believe we try to justify that...

And again, sentiment for men takes precedence over the Bible.

This may seem harsh, but the epistle of James makes this look tame.

New Thought, which originated in the early 19th century with people like Phineas Quimby, and has its origins in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Gnosticism, among others, split into two camps: the New Age movement, and the prosperity gospel. The father of the prosperity gospel, E. W. Kenyon, openly admitted to taking ideas from Quimby and Mary Baker Eddy (and others) to formulate his theology. This spread to men like Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland in the second generation of the prosperity movement, and like leaven, is worming its way into much of Western christianity.

Like the example you gave, Travis, the theology is built on isolated scriptures interpolated with foreign meanings. You wouldn't get prosperity theology from a plain reading of the scriptures; you only get it after hearing certain "teachers" force the meaning into the scriptures they quote.

Greg, as far as Leonard Ravenhill endorsing the NAR/prosperity movement, that just isn't so. He openly condemned prosperity theology. True, he knew men like John Wimber, but he didn't have perfect discernment. If he were here today, and saw all the emotionalism, false prophecies, sham converts, and all the rest of it, he would have unsparingly condemned it. As I've said before, repeatedly, I'm sure there are people in these movements who are genuine christians, but the atmosphere false teaching creates is not conducive to making strong, genuine disciples of Jesus.

Thank you, Travis, for all your posts in this thread.

Our commitment is to the Lord Jesus and His Word alone. Everyone has a duty to carefully discern things with the Scriptures and the Spirit of Truth, thus forging true Christian unity.

Anything else is from the flesh, and ultimately harms both ourselves and others.

"Our commitment is to the Lord Jesus and His Word alone." Yuehan

Now in dealing with this statement in love and respect as I should have with all brethren in Christ my Lord. Our Lords greatest Words, or commandments to us is to, presentence love God firstly, and then to love our neighbors as ourselves. However, Christ Words lift up love in action towards the brethren, (John 13:34-35) above our neighbors, and we know very well what the beloved Apostle John stated concerning love for the brethren! This passage is just a snippet (1 John 3:14-16) There is a balance to be had here and the word says, "Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins." (1 Pet 4:8) Also, our Apostle Paul through the Spirit gave us (1 Cor 13), which is again love in action. I'm thankful this brother's message did come against sins that are rampant right now! "For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy, mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:13) Again, this is in love, but there is a balance though and our dependency is truly on the Holy Spirit within us to keep us in check, as we stay in step with Him dear brethren, we know the fruit He alone produces within our lives. (Gal 5:22-23) This is Christ our Lord, the Apostle John, the Apostle Peter, and the Apostle Paul speaking to us and James. However, we each get to decide the path we choose to follow. Let us prayfuly consider the path we decide to choose. However, whoever has perfect doctrine should keep throwing stones, we will each stand before Christ sooner then we think!

"Dead fundamentalism or just theology won't suffice in our day."

Dead fundamentalism has never been sufficient.
Everything changed in Saul's live when he met the risen Lord.
From then on all he ever wanted was to proclaim Christ and spread the Gospel to advance the Kingdom of God.
After his conversion Paul did not run from one experience to another.
He could worship the Lord even in prison, in the most difficult situations.
He only boasted in the cross and in his weakness.
He warned the believers with tears about the false and counterfeit.

Only the true Christ and growing in Him, with undivided devotion to Him, can give us true and everlasting peace.

May the Lord help us to give us a deeper understanding of Christ and the Gospel.

Markus

The fact that there is a stark division amongst the commenters on John Kirkpatrick and the diversity of criteria used to evaluate his preaching or the man himself as to whether he is anointed and appointed by God to speak for Him, is intriguing yet also concerning.

I wasn't going to post on this clear demonstration of a lack of coherency and/or consistency in the body in discerning the false. I haven't figured it out yet as to why all the differences if this is a site of mature Christians and supposedly we are all led by the same Spirit much of the time.
Perhaps that is where the problem is, in the base assumption ? Not sure.

Nonetheless, I wasn't going to post a general question about what is the generally applied Biblical criteria for discernment or is it purely a matter of personal criteria and personal conclusion?

I'm posting now, though, because I listened to this very short personal testimony about someone who has arrived at a conclusion that IHOP had some serious issues after being very involved in their ministry and teaching. It's worth a listen as this person had a faith and spiritual crisis that is unrelated to the Mike Bickle situation. I post it to generate some thought as to what criteria each of us uses to discern what is from God and what is not and why it is important, maybe even a matter of life or death.

Here's the extremely interesting 5 minute interview touching on things I never knew or had exposure or opinion about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caQkgQy6mN0

From what I've read on these posts, different criteria are being employed to discern whether someone is speaking for God.

Some have pointed to the past life of the speaker and how he was 'used" by God in revivals.

Some point to the character of his life.

Some point to the "fruit" of his ministry which means a combination of things like repentance, conversions, changed lives, etc.

Some point solely to whether "Jesus" is preached by the speaker. We know of course that there are many different Jesus' that can be preached.

Some point to whether the "Gospel" is preached as their sole criteria.

Some have said, I was at such and such an event where such and such person spoke and I felt this or "my experience" was xyz.

Some have pointed to the testimony of famous speakers who "supported" this speaker as either someone with giftings or someone who "truly loves Jesus". Or, in like manner, they point to people acknowledged in the "prophetic movement" (whatever that is) and their view or commendation of the speaker.

Some have pointed to the speakers' healings or words of knowledge as "signs" of their confirmation as prophets.

Some emphasize how many people hitch their spiritual wagon to this or that speaker or how many people attend an event.

Some have pointed to how they "felt" when they heard a speaker preach.

Some have pointed to doctrinal deficiencies or errors.

Some just point to discerning and testing the spirits but without a real baseline for how to do that or a way of discerning whether my discerning of the spirits is actually Spirit led.

Some say you shouldn't criticize anyone who speaks unless they deny Christ as the seemingly only valid criteria.

The forgoing criteria have all been stated as primary within this forum on various posts on the same subject.

Seems strange and at odds with the critical importance of the issue in the NT. Again, I'm struck that the Spirit seems so divided or even confused as to who He is speaking through.

How would you guys (gender neutral) instruct your own children as to who to listen to and who to follow and why ? How would you instruct the immature Christian as to who to listen to and what criteria to use? I actually get asked this question all the time from immature believers about what I think about this or that speaker, preacher, prophet and whether they are a good source of spiritual guidance. Again, this is sometimes a matter of spiritual life or death for those who would listen to and follow the false.

Robert asked:
"How would you guys (gender neutral) instruct your own children as to who to listen to and who to follow and why ?"

"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us””eternal life. I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie””just as it has taught you, abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.” (1 John 2:18-29)

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.” (1 John 4:1-6)

And the larger context is love for the brethren and walking in light and in righteousness (it's not an accident that God exposes the massive sin in the gods of this worlds lives, they get ignored under the mask of "grace", and multitudes end up deceived).

(EDIT: At a certain point we are commanded to trust the Holy Spirit to reveal to us those that are true, and those that are false. This is where true fellowship is revealed, fellowship with God. When 2 or more people share fellowship with Jesus together in common, they will agree on these things because, as it has been said, the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself. This is where man and his sentimental leanings gets his feathers ruffled because this necessitates our realization that not all who profess to know Jesus are actually of Him, and this is why John wrote his first epistle, and also a good portion of the new testament is written to this end.

This goes far beyond the identification of false prophets, false apostles, and false teachers, and cuts to the very quick of the professing church, everyone that names the name of Jesus. This is not judgementalism, being critical, or anything of the like. This is part of loving the brethren. If we love our brother, we will also seek to protect him from deception and error. It is quite unloving to allow our brother to be overtaken by sin and deception, as well as to allow the deceiver and the one practicing unrighteousness to remain among us as believers - a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Letting wheat and tare grow together is in the context of the world, not the community of Jesus disciples, His bride.)

The first epistle of John is written to help us avoid deception.

If someone asks me which teacher or pastor to follow, I always tell them, make sure your heart is right with God, that you are truly born from above, that you have the Spirit of adoption, and judge everything by the word of God.

Even if I tell them that, say, David Wilkerson has sound doctrine (which he does!), I would say to them also, test everything he says by the Bible. Don't take his word for it.

I thought I would post my edit again because it is actually the meat of my thoughts in my other post. Please do not read this post out of the context of my other one before, with the scripture from 1st John.

EDIT: At a certain point we are commanded to trust the Holy Spirit to reveal to us those that are true, and those that are false. This is where true fellowship is revealed, fellowship with God. When 2 or more people share fellowship with Jesus together in common, they will agree on these things because, as it has been said, the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself. This is where man and his sentimental leanings gets his feathers ruffled because this necessitates our realization that not all who profess to know Jesus are actually of Him, and this is why John wrote his first epistle, and also a good portion of the new testament is written to this end.

This goes far beyond the identification of false prophets, false apostles, and false teachers, and cuts to the very quick of the professing church, everyone that names the name of Jesus. This is not judgementalism, being critical, or anything of the like. This is part of loving the brethren. If we love our brother, we will also seek to protect him from deception and error. It is quite unloving to allow our brother to be overtaken by sin and deception, as well as to allow the deceiver and the one practicing unrighteousness to remain among us as believers - a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Letting wheat and tare grow together is in the context of the world, not the community of Jesus disciples, His bride.)

The first epistle of John is written to help us avoid deception.

Does the Spirit in you agree with Nigel and Evan ? Is there more that the Spirit would say to the Father’s children to guide them into all truth and protect them from lies that would draw them away or lead them astray ?

" It is quite unloving to allow our brother to be overtaken by sin and deception, as well as to allow the deceiver and the one practicing unrighteousness to remain among us as believers - a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Letting wheat and tare grow together is in the context of the world, not the community of Jesus disciples, His bride.)”

I agree 100%, and it is also quite unloving to make false accusations against true brethren. It is one thing to disagree with their teachings or prophetic words, but it is quite another thing to label them as false prophets or false teachers. Derek Prince has excellent teachings on this subject, but he doesn’t go around naming names, but if you or Robert or Neigel would actually identify someone that you have already identified as being false, that was false indeed, and I could name a few, then I would be the first one to agree with you.

Mike,

I would love to be corrected but I haven’t named anyone as false. On this thread I only disagreed with the Scripture interpretations of the single sermon posted. I questioned whether or how certain men could be a prophet at the time they have habitual ongoing sin in their life. This is an entirely legitimate question and I think I asked you to comment on that question as I was looking for an answer. Since I asked the question, I saw a formal written apology from Jack Deere, Mike Bickle and Rick Joyner for affirming Paul Cain as a true prophet while he was in unrepentant sin. Likewise, Dr. Brown said he was wrong about Mike Bickle. Not sure what he meant by that confession.

In any respect, I can’t speak for Nigel or Evan, but I don’t think your accusation of me is true, that is, it is false. Unless I’m mistaken about some direct identification of a false prophet that is different than what Jack Deere and others have likewise identified.

Perhaps you could give us your criteria. I think I recall you accusing Jesse Duplantis of being a false prophet. I think I remember that anyway.

I haven't named anyone in this thread either. I don't know anything about Killpatrick except what I see from this thread, which honestly is enough. I won't be listening to his preaching anytime soon.

My comments are in the "if the shoe fits" vein, so if you, or people you know fit in the shoe, I would seek the Lord for His verdict and the grace of repentance.

At this point, and over the course of many years in direct relation to the movements that always seem to be in question (I am still at a loss as to why the Lord places me where He always seems to), I have learned to trust that the Holy Spirit is never wrong concerning these things - I often am wrong in my timing, and when I choose to speak against certain movements/prophets/teachers, but over time my discernment, or should I say, the Holy Spirit, has never been wrong.

This isn't pride or arrogance, it's simply that I for some reason have never cared about my reputation enough to waiver in just saying what God reveals to me. Early in my life when I was still in active preaching ministry, this closed many doors, because men would rather please each other than just trust the Holy Spirit. It's never popular to name names, but popularity is a ship that has long sailed for people who trust Jesus.

Anyway...

Mike,
Anyone I've named in other threads, needs prayer, urgently.

Also, is it possible that those who disagree with proven discernment, and also that disagree and don't follow the scriptural guidelines regarding false teaching and practiced sin are not actually born again?

I think the bigger issue is that we just assume every member of this forum is truly saved... and here it comes.

Robert
That was a very important video that you posted !
It was a true move of God that the lady was finally able to leave the organisation and find the true Christ.
from 5min she gives a heart breaking but also victorious summary.

"if you have faith in Christ you have everything in Him"

Amen

Dead fundamentalism or just theology won't suffice in our day.

But this is a false dichotomy. Fundamentalism means to stick to the fundamentals. We are commanded in scripture to do this. We are to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints, and again, if anyone comes preaching any other doctrine, let him be accursed. Theology is the study of God. If we study God it will lead us to God. We are to study Him and to be like Him.

The idea that is promulgated by so many today is that fundamentalism, theology, and doctrine are legalistic and stuffy. There is a disdain for serious study of scripture. The dichotomy put forward is that the opposite of this "deadnes" is the living, breathing power of the Holy Spirit manifested today. As a result of this, they have a very "revelation" based interpretation of scripture. Gone is exigesis, and the replacement is a esotheric eisegesis that is absolutely decimating the body of Christ right now with false doctrine.

When we apply ourselves to studying the living word of God, the Holy Spirit shows up in truth and power. There is no dichotomy. God's words are spirit and they are life. The word of God is alive, active, and powerful.

I am a pentacostal. I believe in the active manfestation of the power and gifts of the Spirit. What we are seeing in movements like the NAR is a gross perversion of these things, and it is leading people astray.

Let's throw a question out there to help us think about the issue. What makes a teacher, prophet, etc., false? Or maybe we could even differentiate and ask what makes a prophet a false prophet and what makes a teacher a false teacher. If one were to name a person and say, "so and so is a false prophet", what criterion do we use?

It is clear in scripture that there will be false brethren in the last days and that they will deceive many. It is clear that they will even perform lying signs and wonders. Yet they will be false. The deception will eventually be so great that even the very elect would be deceived if that were possible. (Also implying that this will not happen, but that the deception will be that complete.) If this is the case then we must realize that the false teachers and false prophets will often by hard to recognize and differentiate.

I will just use Mike Bickle as an example here. I believe strongly that Bob Jones was as false a prophet as ever walked the face of the Earth. The hidden sinfulness of his life that came to light was appalling and all while he was claiming to speak for God. Bob Jones convinced Mike Bickle that he was to start a youth movement. Now we have evidence that Mike was involved in similar sins for, pretty much, the duration of IHOP's existence. And he was claiming to speak for God. On top of that, we can examine his teachings and his "revelations" by comparing them to the word of God. I have had some deep doctrinal concerns with IHOP for many years. My wife and I have been very close to people who immersed themselves in that movement over the years and have visited many times. I dug into their published teachings and find much that is just unBiblical.

So we might ask the question. Is Mike Bickle a false teacher or a false prophet? Or is he a man who has been sincere, has loved God truly, and has been sincerely deceived by Bob Jones and led down a path that has led him into sin? At what point do we call the ball so to speak and say, "OK, this guy is a false teacher or a false prophet and is to be marked and avoided?"

There are some that, I hope, could be agreed upon. For example, Chuck Pierce. He is an absolute false prophet. He constantly prophecies absolute craziness, claiming he is hearing it directly from God. Men like him are not hard to recognize.

But what criteria do we use? At what point do we call it? Someone said this, and I agree. It is not love to allow false teachers and false prophets to run amok and say nothing. That would be like allowing a flood to drown a city because you did not warn the people it was coming.

Thanks Travis,

Excellent commentary, use of Scripture and great questions to ask, consider and have answered. Some won't let others on this forum even consider this because of fear that it will interfere with or take away the "enthusiasm" fuel for the pursuit of revival or quench a possible move of God. That is a preposterous outlook and a failure to trust Spirit and Truth. It also plays right into the enemy's scheme.

Understanding that deception and the counterfeit is the
danger and knowing that it is a life and death issue for souls and that the honor and true worship of Jesus is at sake, one would be a fool to not ask the questions you asked Travis. Surely Scripture must speak to this.

I would add that it is always idols of the heart that keep people blinded, or hindered and capable of being deceived by false prophets, teachers, apostles and brothers. Because of idols of the heart, the person who has this problem also deceives themselves into thinking they are hearing from and know God.

People ought to read Ezekiel 14, Revelation 2:14-22 and 1 Peter 3…10-12 to understand that the most "sincere" Christian in the world needs to be very afraid that their eyes, ears and hearts can be blinded and that God is not listening to them or speaking to them even while they are sitting in a personal or church environment that seems "just right" to their souls.

What should be scary is that every person in those churches in the letters to the churches in Revelation, or so it seems, was dangerously unaware of the spiritual peril they were in with Jesus. Things had degraded to that point in their souls even as darkness was increasing and drawing more near. Jesus had to "kick them" into spiritual awakeness as to their condition with Him.

The spiritually mature are the ones with discernment and know themselves well so as to see reality and be able to care about the sheep enough to help them. Spiritual maturity isn't a matter of, gifting, or longevity in Christianity or "wealth" of knowledge or participation in great worship events or past revival experience. Experience by itself is a poor and dangerous teacher apart from the Scriptures as has been said.

Travis, you very helpfully combine wisdom, ( practice of discerning good and evil through experience ) and Scriptures. Thank you for that and for speaking up. Rare. There are a few others who clearly do that as well and they not only love the truth, love Jesus, but love the sheep.

And then there are many who speak with little spiritual maturity and discernment of good and evil but from minds with much knowledge and research and then, there are those who have nothing but experience of spiritual highs that in most cases is pure emotionalism and they are hooked on the next big thing or move of God because if they can be part of identifying that or participating in that then they are in the "club" of the spiritual elite who can speak down to others in pride of experience.

Finally, there are those who love Jesus perhaps, love the truth perhaps and love the sheep and the lost, but their love is misguided and immature no matter how old they are. They tend to love movements because of this immature love and are willing to sacrifice a few sheep in order to keep the movement in tact or going forward because the goal is noble. The Mike Bickle fiasco is a perfect example. People are more concerned about the movement than the casualties. That's why these leaders who didn't see it coming or ignored the warning signs and voices and kept endorsing the whole thing. "Look at the results" is always the voice of the blind. Outward appearance instead of integrity of the inward hearts is always the attractive bait. Hypocrisy is always the bane of true Christianity and is the absolute stumbling block to knowing God, walking with God and hearing from God.

What they fail to realize is that Jesus cares just as much about "the way it's done" as much as He cares about "getting it done". Just as much!!

He has a plan for building His Church and our plans no matter how noble our intentions may be are vanity and more dangerously, they can often trample the Son of God, profane the blood of the new covenant and insult the Spirit of Grace. Satan loves it so and he can use blinded man centered sincere "Christians" to accomplish his goals and none but a few will be the wiser. God's work done man's way in man's soulishness is building Satan's kind of church. Jesus isn't in it. It will be burned as wood, hay and stubble.

And just to add some experience to those Scriptures, I've seen hundreds of churches "built" by man and spent years trying to rebuild. It's the hardest work in ministry that there is, as one brother recently spoke, because none so blind as those who think they see and none who will be more culpable before Jesus one day than one who claims to have seen.

Professing to be wise, they are duped and dupe others.

There is so much at stake in answering Travis' questions. We should pay attention.

I don’t remember who said this, but one of you guys said that Chris Reed is a false prophet. On what basis do you call him a false prophet?

I don't know a lot about Christ Reed. I do know that he claims that God showed him in a dream or a vision that the Apostle John is still alive in a cave somewhere and will soon be revealed to the world. His position at Morningstar and his connection with the New Apostolic Reformation movement is cause for concern.

Mike, I don't recall saying anything about Chris Reed except someone posted a video of him speaking at a meeting where he was reading off his phone some facts about people in the audience. ( I might have been the one posting, don't remember). I commented for sure though that this form of "words of knowledge" was suspicious or concerning...not sure about the words I used.

Mike, glad to answer any and all questions you have and have tried to when you addressed them to me. I struggle on the site that I try to answer questions forthrightly so that we can all arrive at the truth, but often, and I use that word rightly, I ask questions and they go unanswered. You have done that in all honesty. Not sure why it's a one way street.

Even on this thread, I asked for questions hoping to get answers that are truly legit and not with any ill will and they are just ignored or, as in this case, followed up not with an answer but with a question. This happens so many times it is worth mention.

Travis, do you consider Rick Joyner to be a false prophet?

Forgive me for the duplication.

I just want you guys to know that I have a good relationship with Pastor Joe Sweet. I interviewed him on one of my programs, and I post his teachings regularly. I forwarded what you guys are saying about false Prophets and also about Chris Reed, who is a personal friend of Joe Sweet, and who has ministered in his church many times and so I want to give you his reply to what you have said.

"Those post just show the spiritual shallowness, and the ignorance of these people who have set themselves up as judges.
John IS alive.
The Scriptures agree with this.
I know three different people who have seen John.
These men are ignorant and full of pride!”

so now, I suppose you will be calling Joe Sweet a false prophet and a false teacher.

Travis, do you consider Rick Joyner to be a false prophet?

"Those post just show the spiritual shallowness, and the ignorance of these people who have set themselves up as judges.
John IS alive.
The Scriptures agree with this.
I know three different people who have seen John.
These men are ignorant and full of pride!”

This is a very concerning statement. I know three people who have seen the Apostle John alive? The Scripture agrees that he is alive?

I readily admit that I am ignorant. The older I get and the more I study, the more I realize I don't know. That is the definition of ignorance. This statement implies that "they are ignorant but I am not". That is quite a statement since we should all recognize and admit our ignorance.

Scripture does not agree that John is alive. Nowhere in scirpture is this written. Jesus said there were some standing here who would not die until they saw the Kingdom of God come in power. And they did, when the Holy Ghost was poured out at Pentacost.

Jesus said, "What if I wanted to preserve John alive until I return. What business of that is yours?" This does not say that He preserved John alive. This is making a point that God determines men's lives, and that his decisions are just and right, no matter what we think about them.

It seems like more and more of these men and women are taking trips to heaven and having Jesus appear to them personally. Jesse Duplantis claims to have had conversations with Jesus and the Apostle Paul. Brian Simmons says that Jesus told him that He is going to give him another chapter of John to add to the passion translation and when this happens it will usher in the great endtime revival.

Rick Joyner is VERY concerning. Just carefully examine his theachings and statements to the word of God.

I think the New Apostolic Reformation movement is a false movement. I believe it to be a deception that has come upon the church, and it is wreaking havok. Its foundational doctrines are perversions of scripture. There are men and women in this movement that have genuine relationships with God, good and Godly people. There are ministers who lead churches in this movement who also know God and strive to follow Him. The question is, how long can you be in the movement and how deep can you go before you just run off the rails?

Again, please listen to all of these men's teachings. Please carefully compare what they say to the word of God.
Don't be lulled into thinking, "Well, they seem to preach some good and correct things, so they must by OK." Remember, a deception is exactly that. It looks correct for the most part. But at its core you will find things that, when followed, will lead you astray.

No, I won't be calling Joe Sweet any names. I don't know him and haven't heard enough of his teaching to declare him false. I have taken issue with some teaching that I've heard as I think there is false in it, at times, but I can't declare anything about his heart. I've watched many of his sermons and sent them to friends so I wouldn't say he's false, just some of his teaching false in the "wrong" but important sense. Also, some of the people he has promoted by having them speak at his church cause some concern, but that's just a concern and not a declaration.

Apparently, I have met Joe Sweet before because he feels entirely comfortable saying I'm or some other person on the forum is shallow, ignorant and full of pride. If it wasn't directed at me then I'm still making the same comment. I'm really quite amazed and to be honest Mike. I've been warned repeatedly not to post an accusation against a brother I don't know and towards whom I haven't approached personally and whom isn't in my sphere of influence.

Flummoxed .

Just learned that Joseph Smith has seen the apostle John alive, never having died. The LDS church believes that he is still alive ministering. I don't know if that makes anyone feel better or worse.

Robert said:
"Just learned that Joseph Smith has seen the apostle John alive, never having died. The LDS church believes that he is still alive ministering. I don't know if that makes anyone feel better or worse."

I was going to post this information a few times, this morning even as a matter of fact. I had thought this John thing had fizzled out already, I wasn't aware how seriously it's being taken.

Thank you for bringing it up, I wasn't sure if I should, but this confirms it.

The answer is easy to predict - "just because the LDS Church says it does not automatically mean it is false".

But before that response is given, take some time to research their definitions of almost every word and point of doctrine shared between them and mainstream Christendom. You will quickly realize that even though they say "Jesus", they actually mean a glorified former Mormon who inherited the earth from "heavenly Father", and is in fact the brother of Satan.

Point of fact, they share nothing at all with Christianity, so if they say it, it's an automatic red flag. They don't define anything differently in this one though, they actually mean the literal apostle John is alive in a cave somewhere, waiting to reveal himself to the earth and correct everyone's understanding of the revelation. Interestingly, in this teaching, John is a Mormon and is waiting to tell everyone the LDS Church is the one true church.

So the question is begged - did Joseph Smith receive a true "prophetic vision", or did the mainstream "prophets" receive a false vision from the same spirit as Joseph Smith?

These are the only two options.

False prophets are not limited to the movements some on this forum adhere to and support. Where I live, a literal false prophet controls the population and the government - proclaiming himself as the one true messenger of Jesus Christ to the earth.

It's a deep irony when the founding false prophet of the largest and most influential cult on the planet has the same vision as self proclaimed prophets of a movement that many of you adhere to and support.

The only rational dismissal is coincidence - but to claim coincidence is to deny the faith.

Mike, you can tell Joe Sweet that I said, quote, "I bless those who insult me, so, God bless you. But I do not believe the apostle John is alive, the scriptures do not support this. Anyone who claims to have seen John in a vision, still alive, is making it up and needs to repent."

from Wikipedia John's tomb is thought to be located in the former Basilica of St. John at Selçuk, a small town in the vicinity of Ephesus.[95] The opening of his tomb during Constantine the Great's reign yielded no bones, giving rise to the belief that his body was assumed into heaven.[96] Another fact that continues to advance the belief of St. John's assumption into Heaven is the fact that St. John (along with Mary, the Mother of Jesus, and Saint Joseph) is among a few saints who left no bodily relics.[97]

So its not unheard of

Rick Joyner claims to have been to heaven, and seen a man seated next to Jesus, who, from his description, sounds like William Branham. For reference, William Branham said that the Trinity is a "doctrine of devils", said that the pyramids in Egypt and the zodiac are equal in revelation to the Bible, said that women were lower than animals, among a cornucopia of other false doctrines.

Rick is also a Knight of Malta, a Roman Catholic order that swears loyalty to the pope and "venerates" (worships) Mary.

Rick was close friends with Bob Jones, who was exposed as a sexual predator in the early 90's.

I could go on, but to what end? People who want their ears tickled will excuse any and all behaviour/false doctrine these men are guilty of. NOTHING, in the minds of some, will disqualify these men from ministry, even though the Bible clearly sets out standards for ministers in the New Testament (they can't be drunkards, they have to lead their own families in a godly way, they can't be adulterers, etc.)

Gary, I'd like to point out that the article you quote says that John died, then he was resurrected and taken to heaven. The "prophets" like Joseph Smith and Chris Reed say that John never died.

Just finding a tomb that some claim to be the apostle John's means precisely nothing. Grave robbers could have taken his bones, for all we know. We don't know that it WAS actually John's real grave.

Drifter, you are a rare breed of laity and believer that doesn't believe that a minister can be restored back into some form of ministry after falling into sin.

You will not find that view amongst many denominations and leaders, even men like John Piper believe that some can be restored back into ministry.

You won't find any verses literally stating that an elder or minister is banned from ministry in those cases.

We only have a vetting process in ordaining elders presbyters and deacons mentioned.

What Bob did may not even be considered even as serious as what Peter did when he denied the Lord and taught the ancient heresy or required the Gentiles to become as jew for salvation Judaizing (legalisim).

Just a question would you permanently ban Peter for what he did or is he Above your law ?

Gary and the forum.

I'm still not certain who determines who is called and gifted by God for prophetic ministry. The assumption that Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Rick Joyner or whoever is a "prophet" is strange to me. To ask if they are false presupposes that they might have been true. What criteria was used ? Who made the call of this? It gets even more convoluted when we start saying "well, other 'prophets' say so and so is a 'true prophet'. ". Why are these confirming prophets the source of truth ? Are the confirming prophets true prophets in the first place. Are they ordaining prophets ? It's a total circular bootstrap if that makes any sense.

Then, we are all called to say whether they can be "restored". Restored to what and by whom ? How can you be restored if you weren't a prophet or a pastor in the first place?

It's all a mess because people don't have a Scriptural clue about how to determine who is a prophet. And likely, someone will quote, "the prophets are subject to the prophets". Ok, that's in the Bible. Now, who are the overseeing "prophets" that the 'prophets" are subject to ? Are they ordained by other prophets much like Rick Joyner and Paul Cain did for Todd Bentley who, in my book, was led by demons. (BTW, Rick Joyner still holds onto his prophetic words spoken over Todd Bentley). Jack Deere, Rob Joyner and Mike Bickle all apologized for affirming Paul Cain as a prophet after disclosure of years long homosexuality.

At this point, I've tried to understand all this from a Bible perspective and discovered that most who support the "prophetic movement" are swept up in something without a lot of foundational level understanding of what the office of a prophet is. To be honest, I still don't know myself except to say that those who are filled with the Spirit and mature will know if someone is speaking for God or not, is filled with the Spirit or not, is called by God to build up the church and in what arena or scope or not. Even with that, we are still all called to compare what they say against the Scriptures to see if they are going beyond or diminishing what is written which is the standard God affirms that was applied to Paul.

Even Paul, the great apostle, prophet, teacher, and preacher proved his apostleship through more than his acknowledgement by the other apostles and he did not attack the false or super apostles by claiming the original 12 did not give them their papers confirming their apostleship and therefore they are false. Look at how Paul defends his claim that he was an apostle not appointed by man but by God. Consider the criteria he used to defend his apostleship......suffering, love, care and concern, how he behaved among them with humility, purity, giving his life to them and for them, etc. , working for free so as to distinguish himself from those who served for money gain. Where is that kind of talk about the prophets ?

So Paul's standard for apostleship was his life, his speech and his purity filled and love motivated conduct and that his words came not in speech only but also in power.

The reason you have a dearth of understanding about the prophetic and an explosion of "prophets" and "apostles" on the scene is because the question of who is one has largely been left to the false prophets and apostles voting together to decide the matter, and/or a majority of "professing believers" voting on it with clicks or donations, or some loose definition of what a prophet is proliferate and become the normative standard which usually comes down to accuracy of their knowledge of facts about individuals they don't know. That particular standard is easily overcome by the enemy. He and millions of demons already know the facts about people so words of knowledge accuracy about peoples' temporal lives shouldn't be the standard as it is so very easily counterfeited. Besides that, it is isn't referenced in the Bible as a standard in the least. And if you mention Jesus and the woman at the well as an exception, Jesus never made that a criteria for people to accept Him in His role as the Christ.

There is a strain of thought that prophets are confirmed by signs and wonders. That is actually only a standard that Paul expressed for the right to be one of the original big A apostles. Signs and wonders were never the criteria in the Bible for the office of prophet. Not to say that Elisha for example didn't do signs and wonders, but rather to say he was an exception and most other OT prophets did not come to Israel performing them. In fact, one of the greatest of the prophets in John the Baptist did no miracles except the important one of preaching with unction and power unto changed lives.
Stephen did signs and wonders as a deacon, is that now the standard for being a deacon ? All can be gifted by God to do a sign or wonder at times. If that happens for someone, does their preaching and teaching of the word then become authoritative? That is telling.

All this debate about who is a false prophet really needs to be turned on its head so that first and foremost we can decide the criteria for who is a true prophet and what does that mean about what kind of ministry, authority and scope of influence they should have Biblically, not based on opinion. You can guarantee the enemy will have a huge playing field for deception when the standards, criteria and definitions are unknown or based on a majority vote by people who may not even be born again or at best are immature and easily tossed to and fro by every wind that is called the Spirit.

The question is...... who is a true prophet and why? IF you can't answer that one Biblically, then you will get a multitude of so called prophets leading the sheep astray into a ditch and potential disaster, which is exactly what happened to the Branham followers, the Cain followers, the Todd Bentley followers and the Mike Bickle followers. Obviously there are many more bad examples. And if you want some proof of that, go online and read the testimony of personal casualties of those who were swept up the latter rain, KCF, Kansas City prophets and the IHOP movement. Peoples' temporal and spiritual lives being destroyed and this being described as "messy and to be expected" is a cause for righteous anger.

It would be better for a person to have a millstone tied around their neck than for that person to lead a little one into sin or a spiritual ditch or spiritual grave. Worry about the casualties and their restoration before even beginning to think about restoration of someone who "fell" from a position they may never have had in the first place.

This has nothing to do with John K. from my perspective. I'm not posting this concerning him. I work in Asia. Literally thousands if not hundreds of thousands of new and/or immature Christians and unbelievers are swept up in all kinds of spiritual deception that comes from the western imposters and false prophets, healers and apostles they've seen or witnessed. Additionally, there has been an explosion of copy cats and the false from within vulnerable nations and regions. Everything from prosperity based Christianity, hyper grace, and signs and wonders based prophets and apostles.

Most on this forum only have these issues on their mind when a scandal hits in the US or as a topic on a forum like this one.
The issue of the false is of gigantic impact in Asia and Africa. I see things from a different perspective than you because I have to deal with the impact of the false daily and widely and it is heartbreaking and angering because of love for the sheep and the honor of Christ. I'm not trying to sound self righteous or better than anyone. Just trying to relate the facts on the ground.

Here's a story that is only 13 minutes long about how wrong things go when the children are not cared for and left to the wolves or sincerely false. I know many from Asian countries who were fooled by this guy and their faith now is in jeopardy. There are other guys like him, perhaps without the blatant sin that is described but nonetheless they milsead, are hirelings and are usually full of spiritual pride, covetousness and sexual immorality. It's rampant. I'm not exaggerating. It's all over South Asia, Central and northern Asia. Usually it's among people who do not have spiritually mature brothers and sisters among them to protect and guide them.

Anyway, watch and know this isn't an isolated problem in the least although it is on a larger scale of deception and negative influence. This is told partially from a secular angle. The spiritual dimension of this is far worse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uATkBBPCtHI

Well said, Robert/CofG.

The problem of false and/or self-appointed prophets is rampant. In the Bible genuine prophets are often in peril of their own lives after pronouncing a judgement of God upon a powerful ruler. It is a life of great risk and danger, but most western Christians think it would be glamorous and popular to be such. Scriptures and history show us otherwise.

Thanks Chris,

One other thing from history is that when there are many "prophets” in the nation in agreement ignoring sin, usually God had to send a few in to the nation to expose the false and warn of a judgement of the household to come unless there is repentance.

It seems that there is an historical pattern that occurs in the Bible. First the people of God ignore certain sins in their midst, then, they start to tolerate those sins and speak of God’s faithfulness, patience and understanding in sinful presumption, then there is an acceptance of sin in their midst and they use language like "we’re only human” or the godly life is "messy” and calling rebellion a "mistake” putting the people to sleep. Finally, when the current going backward is strong, they embrace sin as a virtue (best example is turning greed into "wise stewardship”). Somewhere in that progression or digression, false prophets come in and make the descent easier, more morally acceptable and less troubling. There’s a focus on "all is well and only to get better”. And the people love it so as they get nearer and nearer to the cliff’s edge.

Gary, it isn't my law, it's God's requirements for pastors and elders as outlined in 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, Luke 22:25-27, 1 Peter 5:1-5 and others.

Of course there is room for grace, but this is always dependent upon the repentance of the offending party. So someone like Todd Bentley is disqualified to this day, not just because he was committing adultery, getting drunk, prophesying falsely, DURING the "revival" he was a part of, but because he is not the husband of one wife (1 Timothy 3:2, Mark 10:11) currently. He is still living in sin. And people like Rick Joyner fast tracked him back into ministry in spite of this.

Peter was forgiven by Jesus after he repented of his denial. He didn't keep on doing it. Likewise, Paul rebuked Peter for his compromise with the Judaizers (Paul didn't leave Peter alone and say "Don't judge!") and Peter repented, and was restored.

Robert, it has been a tremendous grief to me that the charlatans have infected even the underground, persecuted church with their nonsense. It's awful. Some of these people groups have never heard the gospel before, and to spread a pseudo gospel to them is spiritual rape and murder. I can't put in stronger terms.

Pray that the wolves are kept away from unreached people and new christians.

Jesus, full of the Spirit, knew what was in the hearts of men (Nathaniel, the Pharisees, and even Peter when he was a dupe of Satan trying to convince Jesus that he needn’t suffer. …same today). True prophet operating in the Spirit can and must do likewise.

What Bob did may not even be considered even as serious as what Peter did when he denied the Lord and taught the ancient heresy or required the Gentiles to become as jew for salvation Judaizing (legalisim).

Interesting statement. That is exactly what Rick Joyner said about what Mike Bickle did.

There is a distinct difference however. Paul the apostle was a sinner before he was born again. Bickle and Jones were taking advantage of women for their own gratification while they were masquerading as genuine ministers of the Gospel.

Can a minister be restored back to ministry after sinning? Guess that is an open question. It really depends on the sin, the level of repentance, and the effect it has and will continue to have on the body. Personally, I would never want to see Mike Bickle back in ministry. I think he has passed that point because he preyed on the very sheep he was supposed to be leading. The same is true of Bob Jones. I think the pattern of behavior and the type of behavior disqualifies him.

You’re right Travis. People always point to the pre Holy Spirit Peter and put forth principles and teach off of his old man life. Obviously wrong to do but you see it everywhere.

Robert:

******YES******

You just put into words what I was trying to, but failed at. The question was asked, "Do I think Rick Joyner is a false prophet?" I think now my answer is clear. Rick Joyner is not, nor was he ever a prophet to begin with. He is a man who has taken the title prophet and then apostle upon himself.

The overarching doctrine of the New Apostolic Reformation, in fact, the only reason the movement exists in the first place, is the belief apostles and prophets must assume the governance of the body of Christ. Through this governance they receive special end-time revelation to guide the church in setting up the kingdom that Jesus will return to receive from them. This doctrine is completely unBiblical. There is absolutely no support in scripture for it whatsoever. They use some key verses taken out of context to try to support this view.

The result is a pentacostal papacy of sorts with the "big dogs", the apostles and prophets, being the ones who are venerated. So there is a clamor among those in this movement to have a five-fold ministry gifting and that that gifting eventually mature to the level of prophet or apostle. Believe me, I have seen this play out a number of times in circles I have been in. It is simply not of God. It is worldly, sensual, and devilish, and it is leading the body of Christ astray.

Rick Joyner, the Sheets brothers, Chuck Pierce, Cindy Jacobs, Paula White, Vlad Savchek (sic), Jeremiah Johnson, Mike Bickle, Paul Cain, Bob Jones etc., are NOT prophets nor are they apostles. They never have been. They never will be. They are playing a deadly game of dress-up in the body of Christ. They are chasing after a completely unBiblical teaching that truly, if you study it carefully, is another gospel just as Paul spoke of.

That is what I am seeing. It is not good.

A lot of Christians want to believe there is still "power” available in the believer’s life. Power to heal. Words of knowledge. Casting out demons. John Wimber used to call it "doing the stuff.”

Unfortunately this type of power is not normally expected or experienced in "normal” evangelical churches or in certain mainline denominations. This is plain fact.

You must go "Pentecostal” or "charismatic” for that. But unfortunately the "prophetic streams” that go with those churches are rife with difficulties as has been discussed here ad nauseum.

It is a crying shame that there cannot seem to be churches with solid and grounded biblical exposition without exclusion of "the stuff.”

But it seems you get one or the other, but not both.

I realize I am speaking in generalities and there may be an occasional gem of a fellowship where you can get solid teaching and charisma without the silliness. But I suspect these are exceedingly rare, but it should not be so.

You are right Todd for sure. It’s a shame. They need to happen in small churches with brotherly love and service. There’s an effort called Convergence to unite Spirit and Truth as essential together. Sam Storms is part of it and his exposition is strong and his desire for prophetic is healthy. It’s online. Not perfect but a strong effort to not let man separate what God has joined together.

It's very rare now in the western world, Todd. I knew some great men of God who were solid in their Biblical understanding whose lives were characterised by the miraculous on occasion (but God often works in ways that are not immediayely evident to the human eye), but they have gone home to be with Christ, and the subsequent generation has failed to produce many of similar calibre.

But this is the pattern of history: The opening of 1 Samuel tells us that the Word of the Lord was rare in those days; there was no widespread revelation (then God raises up Samuel). Likewise, before Jesus' birth there was 400 years since Malachi prophesied. The apocrypha has some historic value, but it is not Divine writ. This is an increasingly dark time, but we need to walk in the light we have been given in God's Word which is confirmed by His Spirit.

Todd: Any time we label ourselves, the label has some baggage with it. I have said that I am a pentacostal, but not a charismatic. I guess label me what you will, but I come from a perspective of growing up among people who believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit as an experience separate from salvation, and I still hold to that. I believe I can support it very solidly scripturally, and I have experienced it. I have seen God move in some pretty extraordinary and supernatural ways. I have seen most if not all of the gifts of the spirit listed in 1 Cor. 12. One interesting example that preceded me was my great grandfather who, knowing absolutely no Spanish, once preached a 30 minute sermon in Mexico, in Spanish, speaking in a language he did not know.

I say all that to say this. I believe the gifts of the Spirit and supernatural manifestations have never left the church since Pentecost. Yet I agree with what you said. These gifts are not normative in the daily life of a spirit filled believer. They happen by the will of God, when He chooses to work through them. No one will have, for example, a gift of healing and be able to operate in that gift any time they chose to do so. Yet, God may choose to use me in a gift of healing at some point, maybe today, or maybe in six months. It is up to Him.

What I see these men trafficking in is not the genuine, supernatural workings of the Holy Spirit. In the case of Bethel Redding, as chronicled in their book, "Experiencing the Heavenly Realms", it may very well be the supernatural operation of demonic, familiar spirits. Anyone wanting to know really should read that book. Pair it with "The Physics of Heaven", and you will quickly learn, from Bill Johnson and Bethel itself, that what is going on is not God.
PLEASE read these books carefully.

I grew up in Pentecost. I knew the old timers who knew Parham personally. He had some really odd ideas sometimes, and he was not a perfect man by any stretch of the imagination. What I see from this current movement bears little if any resemblance to what I grew up in, and the ministers I learned under would have loudly and soundly denounced this movement as unGodly.

"I grew up in Pentecost. I knew the old timers who knew Parham personally. He had some really odd ideas sometimes, and he was not a perfect man by any stretch of the imagination. What I see from this current movement bears little if any resemblance to what I grew up in, and the ministers I learned under would have loudly and soundly denounced this movement as unGodly."

Travis do you remember what I posted awhile back about Brother Parham and the false accusations that were made against him?

I also posted the truth about A.A. Allen’s death, but some on this forum wouldn’t accept it, because the believe everything that the heresy Hunter websites proclaim. Many false accusations have been made.

I think that the problem is that some that call men false prophets are closet cessationists. They say that they believe in the Pentecostal experience, the gifts, and signs and wonders, but don’t believe that Jesus has appeared to many true prophets of God. I can send you a message by Walter Beutler. He had an encounter with the Lord, while spending time in prayer and fasting. Jesus actually walked into his room and stayed there for a good while, and when the Lord left, the devil walked into the room. You can access many of Walter Beutler’s teachings on Sermon Index.

"I think that the problem is that some that call men false prophets are closet cessationists. They say that they believe in the Pentecostal experience, the gifts, and signs and wonders, but don’t believe that Jesus has appeared to many true prophets of God. I can send you a message by Walter Beutler. He had an encounter with the Lord, while spending time in prayer and fasting. Jesus actually walked into his room and stayed there for a good while, and when the Lord left, the devil walked into the room. You can access many of Walter Beutler’s teachings on Sermon Index."

I am, for all intents and purposes, done with this and most threads on the forum. But I was curious about this.

This is par for the course I've noticed - unless you believe, part and parcel, that men claiming these "Jesus walked into my room" experiences you are a "closet cessationist". I just find it very concerning that, as common as these experiences are claimed to be, they are practically absent in the New Testament. In fact, depending on how you look at the revealing of the revelation to John, the only one to have an experience like this is Paul. Peter had a dream, one time.

You would think the men alive today have a thing or two they could teach the men who actually walked with the Lord - or in James case, grew up with Jesus.

I am so absolutely wearied by this constant appeal to men and their experiences. The blindness this leads to is so glaringly evident to everyone but those who are deceived. As Paul wrote to Timothy, "deceiving AND being deceived".

There is absolutely no desire on this forum for truth, unity in Christ - no one cares enough about each other to ever step out of their own little comfortable box of experience and doctrine to even consider the fact they could possibly be wrong about anything.

The response to this post will be simply another pacification of conscience by telling me I'm a hypocrite and am unwilling to do the same, am arrogant, unyielding and stubborn. It's easy to justify our own error and sin by looking to the next guy and hoping his sin and error is worse than our own, and using that as the means to ignore the Holy Spirit and continue in our own deception.

Right on all accounts; I am stubborn, arrogant, proud, self willed. If you see it in me, that trust me, I've seen it in myself and the Lord saw it years ago. - but I answer to Jesus, and so do you. You won't give an account for the sin or error you thought you saw in me. But you can however use it as an excuse to continue in error, continue being deceived, and continue kicking against the pricks.

But at least I can stand in judgment and when the Lord asks me if I relayed His mind, words and truth to those people back when I was on that forum and there was so much deception running rampant, I can say I discharged that burden and did my duty.

I would offer this appeal - when 2 or more people are in agreement, and are in almost perfect unity concerning the error of a thing, it would behoove those that hold to the things perceived as error to at least honestly and critically think them through. But it seems that digging in your heels and literally dying on the hill of the error is the preferred method and strategy.

Brother Evan, I don’t doubt your sincerity in calling out false prophets and teachers, although I disagree with you concerning some of the men that you do consider to be as such, but we need to acknowledge that there are true apostles and prophets in the church and they here now. We might have a difference of opinion as to who they are. We just need some balance in these discussions. I don’t believe that these discussions have been fruitful at all, but have produced strife I know that I have repented of strife, which is a work of the flesh, that was in my own heart.

Thanks for sharing, Travis.

I remember just before Covid came around that the Bethel Redding folks were boasting of their anointing, saying they were going to go to hospitals and heal the sick and raise the dead. Then the pandemic came and they all went into hiding. What a "missed opportunity." ;)

Eschaible, I had pretty much given up on this forum, but peeked in and liked much of what you were writing. It was a breath of fresh air. Time is precious, and I encourage everyone to not be on here overmuch, but occasionally.

ChrisA said:
"Eschaible, I had pretty much given up on this forum, but peeked in and liked much of what you were writing. It was a breath of fresh air. Time is precious, and I encourage everyone to not be on here overmuch, but occasionally."

As inconsistent as it seems (I've given up on trying to be consistent, Jesus tends to destroy that in me every time I try for it), I can't leave this forum and still be in obedience, no idea why. But like consistency, knowing what I'm doing or where I am going is also something that died long ago.

Anyway, I've neglected my original marching orders for being here by taking my responses to questions or opposition's and posting them as blog posts and what not, justifying it as my best articulations of truths I've been having revealed to me (the forbidden tree for example). But that's not why I was led to be here - at least the little I do know.

But I don't want to detract from what I said before, because the active members of this forum are all precious and must stand at the judgment seat of Christ - God grieves over the state of His people, and sadly, His people love to take advantage of His patience.

Chris said:

"Eschaible, I had pretty much given up on this forum, but peeked in and liked much of what you were writing. It was a breath of fresh air. Time is precious, and I encourage everyone to not be on here overmuch, but occasionally."

It is amazing because I pretty much said the same thing and then this morning. I prayed and asked the Lord to show me if I was to stay on the forum or not. I am open for correction, and I don’t have a problem at all changing my stance on my position, if the Lord shows me. Maybe this is about iron sharpening iron and this is a good thing if we can walk in love and stay out of strife.

Travis do you remember what I posted awhile back about Brother Parham and the false accusations that were made against him?

I also posted the truth about A.A. Allen’s death, but some on this forum wouldn’t accept it, because the believe everything that the heresy Hunter websites proclaim. Many false accusations have been made.

I have access to the original document archive of Parham's ministry and movement. Parham was far from perfect. He taught and did some things that I don't agree with. But I do think he was falsely accused of many things. I know little of A.A. Allen except his failures have been something I have heard of ever since I first heard his name as a teenager.

The Truth About A. A. Allen’s Death

https://youtu.be/VgOuOq0Yafo?si=_ULlA-gdYNFO0pHj

I think that the problem is that some that call men false prophets are closet cessationists. They say that they believe in the Pentecostal experience, the gifts, and signs and wonders, but don’t believe that Jesus has appeared to many true prophets of God. I can send you a message by Walter Beutler. He had an encounter with the Lord, while spending time in prayer and fasting. Jesus actually walked into his room and stayed there for a good while, and when the Lord left, the devil walked into the room. You can access many of Walter Beutler’s teachings on Sermon Index.

Therein lies the problem. The charismatic church has long been conditioned to look for supernatural visitation and manifestation and the serious study of the word of God has been castigated. I don't know Beutler, so I am not speaking against him personally here. What is concerning is that this is "Beutler's story". Is it true? Perhaps. Is it false? Perhaps. Did he make it up? Did he receive a deceiving visit by a demonic presence? How do you judge this? The fact of the matter is...you can't.

What you can judge is the teaching of a man. You can compare what he says publicly with the word of God. You can look at his fruit (That which comes out from him in the form of teaching and the teachings of those who see him as their spiritual father.) That is our bedrock foundation. What I am seeing taught as the word of God by most of these people is patently unBiblical. If you know your Bible, you see that they twist it in order to fit their own ideas.

Paul told us in Colossians that we should not let any man despise us in our adherence to the truth of the New Covenant and the teachings of the Apostles. He said that these people would try to make themselves look spiritual in our eyes through their visions and angelic visitations. So I am not impressed by anyone who has some big story about a visit from Jesus or a trip to heaven. Could Jesus appear to me? I guess its possible. These guys almost compete to see whose visitation story is best and they all claim these things happen on a regular basis. I buy none of it. These things should not impress a believer.

What should impress us is the way the man handles the word of God faithfully and teaches others faithfully. What should impress us is the way the man gives his life to bring the truth of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus to the world and the way he preaches repentance from sin and righteousness by faith in what Jesus did.

What I see are conferences, offerings, involvement in political initiatives, big houses, fancy cars, expensive clothes, whole sermons about their own accomplishments and their trips to heaven, angelic visitations, and new revelations given by the "Holy Spirit", book promotions on shows such as the Sid Roth program, and etc..

I believe that cessationists believe the way they do because they have a false understanding of how the gifts of the Spirit operate. I can't count how many times a cessationist has said something like, "If the gift of healing was around today we would see someone in that gifting go into a hospital and empty the place out". So obviously they think these gifts are something that can be called up and acted on by a whim. But we see this gift in Acts 14 operating through the apostle Paul.

And in Lystra a certain man without strength in his feet was sitting; a cripple from his mother's womb who had never walked. This man heard Paul speaking. Paul, observing him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed said with a loud voice, "Stand up straight on your feet." And he leaped and walked. Acts 14:8-10

So you see here that God gave revelation to Paul that the man was in a position to receive healing by faith and so Paul spoke the command to be healed and he was. Gifts of the spirit operate by the Spirit and are not initiated by the one having the gift. And that is where people miss it. They assume that if someone has a gift, they can just use it like it was their own personal toy. You never see that in scripture.

-Daniel

So Travis, the truth of the matter is that there are true and false supernatural occurrences that have happened all throughout church history, and some say that all these supernatural events are of God, and you have another group that says they’re all of the devil, so we need discernment and we need to look at the whole picture. But there’s so many false judgments going on today and I’m Charismatic like you are. By charismatic , I mean that I believe in the gifts of the Spirit, but I don’t believe that every manifestation that takes place is of God as a matter of fact, even in true revivals there are false manifestations, I’ve studied revival and this has been going on since the Great Awakening, true and false manifestations, the Spirit of God moving, and the flesh being active, and even demonic manifestations taking place all in the same revival .

Brothers and Sisters who want to be done with it:

What I have always liked about this forum is the fact that there is a lot of disagreement, but it seems like it is handled by all in a loving and honorable manner.

It is important that we don't draw back into an echo chamber of people that agree with us and make us feel comfortable. Positive reinforcement in the world of physics always leads to structural failure. Watch a documentary sometimes on the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse. We need people pushing against us and disagreeing to drive us to the word of God and make us test these things.

Personal testimony: I used to read books about Lake, Wigglesworth, Parham, and etc. when I was in my early 20's. I was so hungry for the manifestation of the Spirit that I saw my own church as dry, dull, and dead. So I began to run after what I was hungry for.

I fellowshipped with people from the Word of Faith Movement. I have been in the Copeland meetings and the Benny Hinn meetings. What I longed for was not there either. They had a show all right, but it was an empty show and lots of error was there.

I was at IHOP when it was still a double-wide trailer. That goes back a long way. I was in the prayer room many times. I have been at the One Thing conference several times. But I have to be honest. There was not powerful move of God there. I dug into the foundational teachings of IHOP, and they came up short Biblically. They were just not Biblical at all. My son did a One Thing internship and his experience led him to a point that he would never recommend IHOP to anyone today.

Finally, the church I was part of began to run hard toward the NAR movement. Tony Kemp visited the church. The pastor is running around with Dutch Sheets and company. And again, this was not the way to the things I had always been hungry for. I have seen this movement from a front seat vantage point, and it is not of God. It is off....way off. I finally left because I could no longer tolerate the Biblical error.

So what of the things I hungered for? In the process I have listened to people who call themselves cessationists. Now, I am NOT a cessationist. I am NOT a restorationist. I am firmly a continuationist. But I found that, when it comes to the truth of the word of God, Christology, and theology, I have much more in common with many cessationists than I do with most anyone who espouses the doctrines of the NAR movement. By the way, I found that IHOP, the NAR movement, and the Word of Faith are really just three branches of one big movement that, honestly, is full of error and getting worse.

Are there genuine believers in these movements. YES!!!!!. Are there ministers and leaders in these movements that genuinely know God? YES!!!!! But there are also deceivers who teach at high levels in these movements and lots of very false doctrine. The question is, how long can you be part of this without being destroyed spiritually?

So don't leave because it seems people disagree with you. In the discussion, if the attitude is right, truth will, I hope, be realized.

Good balanced post Travis. I have to say this though, that there are some godly men out there like Joe Sweet that are true to the word, and still believe in the supernatural. Cessationists are not balanced.

Joe Sweet may be a godly man. I don't know his personal life. What I have watched of him, as far as sermons online go, he seems to have an honest heart and a pure hunger for God. I don't know exactly how to say this. I guess I will say it this way. The doctrinal company he keeps, the circles he fellowships in, are way, way off, and I fear for him.

As far a cessationists go, here is what I have learned. (If there are cessationists on SI that read this, PLEASE chime in and correct what I say if I am wrong, or give a better understanding of this.) There are, obviously, different doctrinal slants among cessationists, just as there are among continuationists. But here is what I have learned in a nutshell.

Men being given gifts by which they speak prophecy, perform miracles, and heal the sick, was something given to the Apostles to demonstrate to the world that they were speaking for God. (Actually, the Bible does say in several places that the original 12 and Paul were given special abilities by God that the rest of the church was not given.) Since they were given to the Apostles, then they ceased when the Apostles were done on Earth and died. God still works supernaturally in the affairs and lives of men. He heals, even instantly and He performs miracles. He does these things by His sovereign will, meaning when and how He determines to do it. We should pray for God to heal people, but it is up to Him to answer as He wills to do so. God may even use a person to speak in tongues, but it will be a known language and will be accompanied by an interpretation. Much of what we hear in the church right now is gibberish, not legitimate tongues.

That, in a very small nutshell, is my understanding of what a cessationist believes. I have heard many who counter cessationists characterizing them as believing there are no more miracles, or that God does not heal people today. I have not heard any cessationists say these things.

I disagree with cessationists for the most part, but I agree with them in some things.

I believe God does use men and women in the gifts of the Spirit. I do not believe that any man HAS any of the gifts of the Spirit. I believe that God may use any believer in any one of the gifts of the Spirit as He wills and in His timing. That believer will be used in that gift at that time and maybe never again, or maybe again at some time. Do all give a message in tongues? NO. Do all prophesy? NO. He distributes severally as He wills. You get the idea. There will NEVER be a believer who has access to spiritual gifting to perform miracles and healings on the level of the original twelve and Paul. That was something special, reserved for them.

So in this I agree partly with cessationists, yet disagree with the general premise of their belief. But it is important that I learn what they really do believe. Otherwise it is easy to villainize and marginalize them, not listening to the perspectives they have on many things that are good.

You might say, am I marginalizing or villainizing the NAR or the Word of Faith. I would say no. I have been part of those movements. I have studied deeply what they believe. They actually preach another gospel, one that violates scripture in, to be blunt, most every one of their distinctives. I have dug deep into what they teach and preach.

So, I guess, back to Joe Sweet and others like him. There are men, even pastors, in this movement that have genuine relationships with God. I just don't know how long you can be there and how deep you can go before it runs off the rails.

I will give you a case in point. The pastor I was with at the church I spoke of once admitted that for a number of months he had lost the ability to hear from God. This was during the time when he had decided to run hard after this movement. Then one day he said, "But suddenly God started speaking to me again. I asked God, why did I go so long and not hear your voice. God told me, 'It is because the devil had figured out how to hear what I was saying to you and I had to find a new way of speaking to you that the devil could not overhear. So I will speak to you differently from now on." This was the moment the church began to run off the rails. Draw your own conclusions.