Seeing and perceiving. Hearing and being heard.

The easy grace of many avoids the clear truth of OT and NT Scripture that Spiritual sight of spiritual things, especially seeing our our own selves rightly and hearing from God clearly, or at all, and God hearing us when we speak to Him is dependent on our walking in the Light or our walking in the darkness as Christians.

Having eyes to "see" and having ears to "hear" depends on whether we have allowed sin to go on in ourselves and/or have allowed idols to be set up in our hearts. If and once this happens we actually don't know we can't hear or see spiritually nor do we know that God isn't speaking or revealing Himself and His will and ways to us. In the opposite, good sight and hearing depends on us walking in righteousness.

Isa 59:2 -
But your wrongdoings have caused a separation between you and your God,
And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

Heb 5:7 -
In the days of His humanity, He offered up both prayers and pleas with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His devout behavior.

1Pe 3:12 -
"FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS,
AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER,
BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST EVILDOERS.”

Rev 3:17 - ‘Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have no need of anything,” and you do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked,

Eze 14:3 - "Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their hearts and have put in front of their faces the stumbling block of their wrongdoing. Should I let Myself be consulted by them at all?

Jhn 15:7

"If you remain in Me, and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you."

Walking in righteousness leads to spiritual sight and hearing from God. Apart from that, there is a big risk of spiritual blindness and deafness which is wholly undetected and undiscerned by those suffering from it. In fact, ironically, they think all is well. One could have a reputation for being alive but in fact he is dead or close to it and not even know it. A physically blind and deaf person is completely aware of their condition. Spiritually, though, not at all.

And the crazy thing is, one could be right in many regards to the faith and yet blind and deaf overall because of habitual unrighteousness in one particular area, like lacking brotherly love, being spiritually gifted and proud of it, tolerant of sexual immorality in the body, toleration of or actual covetousness or being rich in goods but not toward God, not persevering in serving the saints, idolatry of self, natural family, life on earth and the length of your own life. Any one of these, according to Scripture, over time, could make you blind and deaf and God could stop listening to even your most heartfelt prayers. Just read the passages. Not opinion.

1 Peter 3:7 -
You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.

Those who have not soiled their garments are worthy to walk with Jesus in this life and the one to come.

This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1John 1:5-9)

Cleansing is available through contrition and confession, yet, we must actually walk in the light to have fellowship with Jesus (abide) and not just be cleansed. Cleansing from past sins is not enough.

2Pe 1:8-11.

For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they do not make you useless nor unproductive in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ

For the one who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choice of you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

This verse should be especially noted as a hindrance to prayer and fellowship:

James 4:17 - So for one who knows the [fn]right thing to do and does not do it, for him it is sin.

A life of self pursuit even if not overtly, or even definitionally by our own standards "lustful”, will hinder prayer. Not being positively righteous to the end in our life will at some point result in our "not being heard” in addition to lack of fellowship, lack of joy and disqualification. (John 15 , 1 John 1, Philippians 3, 2 Peter 1, Matthew 7.

Amen brother.

One thing I would caution against in this line of reasoning however, is the imbalance that can quickly tip the scales towards looking to our own works, obedience, holiness, and righteousness, and forgetting the source from which all of these things come.

Jesus said that if we love Him we will obey His commands, and in the same breath said that apart from Him we can do nothing. The branch in the vine is simply the vehicle of the life of the vine as it upholds the branch. The root of the vine, the vine itself, feeds the life into the branch, and the fruit that is visible on the branch is nothing more than the vines manifestation.

Jesus said in John 17 He gave His followers His own glory, the glory of visibly bearing the fruit that is actually His. Apart from Him we can do nothing, just like a branch apart from the vine is good for nothing except to be thrown away and burned. Our sanctification is the result of Jesus sanctifying Himself, and in our abiding in Him, we too are sanctified.

This all seems much more spiritualized than it actually is.

Their is no chronological difference between abiding and bearing fruit; believing and obeying; faith and works.

To believe, one must obey. The lack of obedience will never put a disciple of Jesus into a position where faith is even necessary, just like the lack of faith will never put a disciple of Jesus into a position where obedience is ever necessary. To obey, one must believe.

There is no chronology in this, it is 'both and' not 'either or'.

Anyway, it is easy to have hindrances in prayer and immediately look to self to find the answers. But self is a deceiver. The Psalmist asks of God for His searching. When God searches us, we are truly found out.

Just thought to add these thoughts, not take away from what you said brother Robert, as I agree with everything you said. The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets after all, and we all sharpen each other, as iron sharpens iron.

ES. I know the danger you speak of. However, all those Scriptures were spoken to the faithful saints without caveat or caution or warning.

True.

They were spoken to faithful saints; that said, it can be assumed that they held the truths that I conveyed earlier, and knew appropriate application of what you wrote, the application of abiding in Jesus, and His abiding in us.

It cannot be taken for granted now however, that these things are held in conjunction with one another.

I think our posts are also 'both and', not 'either or'.

If you were not in Cambodia dear brother, I would suggest we meet for prayer and fellowship together with the Lord. You're ability to articulate the faith is inspired.

Thanks ES. Would welcome the chance.

Amen, I can't help but think of Jesus when he talked about removing the plank out of our own eye so that we may see clearly.

This plank that he's spoke about was connected to judging our brothers and so it clearly had a devastating effect on our ability to see.

So this plank that he speaks about was such a dangerous plank that it was connected to the very deception of Satan who was the accuser of the brethren, who himself judged and accused and obviously did not love born again Christians in any shape or form.

It is interesting the verses that talk about :if we walk in the light the basic evidence of that is that we will have fellowship with one another and then the blood of Jesus cleanses corporately and individually of sin because we're practicing love for the brothers and in the letter of John this is definitely what the gnostics were not doing they were an elite group of false Christians one would also make the argument to say that the (Judaizers) the men that came from James we're not loving the gentiles as they were, nor did they receive them as brothers the way our heavenly father had accepted and received them Peter's vision when he fell asleep on the top of the house made that quite clear.

Matthew 7 â–º
New King James Version\t
Do Not Judge
1"Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4O how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

If you don't love your brother whom you have seen how can you say that you love God whom you have not seen.

The deception is real and powerful and one of Satan's favorite tools because he uses the commandments and a type of false humility to grip hold of the Christian to cause them to believe that because they are not fornicating or they're not lying and stealing they're in some sort of deep type of repentance but in reality their judgment upon their brother has caused them to be blind and fall into this snare of the Devil the accuser of the brethren to do his will.

Apart from the root sin of Pride judging and accusing is the fundamental sin of Satan and what he does best and so when Christians fall into the same snare and practice the same sin as Satan they actually outdo the demons.

Like the demons of lust and the unclean demons that tempt through different sins and bring people into bondage to sexual addictions and other addictions of The flesh through men giving themselves over to the appetites of their body.

I would go as far as saying it is probably the greatest sin of all the sins because when one falls into false judgment and condemns their brother and falls into blindness it is impossible then to keep the two spiritual laws of loving God with all your mind hearts soul and spirit and loving your neighbor as yourself, by default the sin of judgment causes you to break the two greatest commandments while holding onto a religious spirit and a false piety that manifests itself in many forms of religion not just a Christian religion but also Islam, etc.

Love Joy peace patience goodness kindness gentleness faithfulness and self-control.

The main attribute of the spirit in US is goodness kindness gentleness patience peace and love, this is the main part of the fruit of the spirit itself.

The apostle Paul clearly had matured fruit of the spirit and he was able to love the immature babes in Christ at the church of Corinth who were carnal as evidence of them being babes in Christ.

He didn't try to tear them down he didn't try to accuse them but had an intense love for them and more or less labored in birth pains and in prayer interceding in the spirit pouring out his heart to these carnal Christians.

If we're not doing the same thing and feel that our heart is raspy and harsh towards young carnal Christians in a similar condition to the church at Corinth then we have probably come under the power of Satan and the accuser of the brethren the hook is probably penetrating into our own heart because if we do have bitterness and contempt towards carnal Christians we're copying Satan because Satan's objective and one of his main goals is to tear down the newly born Christian and the carnal Christian and to rip them out of fellowship ripped them out of communion and to take them captive for his own Glory.

I only bring this up again because this is one of the major blind spots in a Christian's journey and development and it definitely was one of my blind spots and had me in the same
snare.

If we really do want revival to come into our own life and revival to be effective in the town that we live in or the country that we live in and we want to be part of the intercessors that actually play a part in praying through God's will and bringing it into the Earth we have to deal with this sin, else we will find ourselves on the outer edges of the move of the spirit when it does sweep through the world and our hearts will become more offended we will see fewer miracles less healing and eventually we'll be walking like a cessationist and a religious person with a lot of head knowledge but no spiritual reality and our fruit of the spirit will have dried up and become rotten and fallen off the tree, the branch will have been ripped from the vine to make room for other branches to grow and bear fruit.

Heavenly father may you open my eyes more to the reality of your love and open up our eyes to see if we have this sin within us and set us free into the love joy and peace and long-suffering goodness kindness and gentleness and self control and patients that, we know is the very attribute of who you are and cause us to walk in love and holiness . Forgive us father for your son's sake that he may get the reward of his suffering in our life and may the blood of your son accomplish above and beyond what we may believe it could accomplish in our own life for his sake and for the sake of the Lost World. Amen

Heh Gary,

Thanks for affirming the Scripture truths that were posted. I do want to suggest that your general statement about love towards the brethern being a critical key to walking with God is very right as all are aware. However, your statements about Paul and the church in Corinth need some clarity. Take a look at 2 Corinthians 13 to see Paul's heart towards the carnal Christians you speak of. You will see warning, accusation and threatened harshness. This is not to advocate that anyone should assume that mantle. Rather, just trying to clarify and suggest better use of the Scripture you use to support what you are saying.

As I'm sure you are aware, people can be carnal because they are new in the faith and some can be carnal because of prolonged rebellious decisions to be so even though they have been in the church a long time. God is long suffering with the former and less so with the latter primarily because they are without excuse and because their example in the church is harmful to the truly new and infant in Christ. Many of the Corinthians were in the latter category of being spiritually gifted but also selfish and in prideful rebellion for years and Paul loved them as a spiritual father and mother but, was also ready to come to them in their harmful rebellion either in the gentleness of love as they repented of their hardness of heart or with a rod and with the power of punishment if they did not ( 1 Corinthians 4:21). I presume Paul had God's heart in the matter when He spoke these truths in love.

Love is never blind to what could be a seriously harmful leaven in the body. Love nourishes and love protects. Adam should have not only nourished Eve spiritually to help her to maturity but also protected her from false voices. If Adam wanted to keep in fellowship with God, then he would have to do both and failed at it and lost that fellowship as a result. Love makes us our brother's and our brothers' keepers so long as we are led of the Spirit in the keeping.

As you said, perhaps your past is directing you in what you say. Your point and concern is very valid but you can go too far the other way and lose fellowship even with God just as easily by protecting the one at the expense of the rest of the family. This is actually what happened in Corinth when looking at the whole of the Scripture and not verse plucking. The body in Corinth let the sinful one(s) run a bad race as a bad spiritual example to the body. A bad example of sin and a worse example of toleration of it and the whole church (not just the leaders) were chastened by Paul for saying and doing nothing to protect the spiritually weak or vulnerable from the bad and harmful examples influencing them. Paul told the Corinthian body of believers to call out and punish the unrepentant or face punishment themselves if he had to do it instead because they (not only the leaders) weren't being good examples of protecting the flock. The sin of doing nothing.

Your use of Paul and the Corinthian church is great for establishing what brotherly love would do and must do in order to protect the brothers even though you seem to say it teaches the opposite. This does not sanction the abuses of others who seek to call out or chasten others in the flesh and not in the Spirit. There's plenty of fleshly activity and its abuse on either side done in the name of brotherly love.

One last clarification or admonishment Gary, the word "accusation" does not necessarily get paired with Satan, although he is the accuser of the brethern. It is a neutral word that means "to charge someone with some wrongdoing." Here's the positive and Scripturally mandated use of the word:

1Ti 5:19
Do not accept an "accusation" against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

We are to accept an accusation when supported in the case of charges against elders within a local body.

Amen Robert. I Agree with much of your post there brother.

You mention the mantle that the apostle Paul had and for sure he carried the mantle to operate within his sphere of authority through the anointing and no doubts through a perfected character of love.

I believe out of all the apostles John and Paul had Christ formed within them so that they could carry out apostolic discipline and excommunications with a clear conscience from a pure heart with the love of Christ and he showed that love by asking the leaders of the church to bring back the one they had handed over to Satan so to speak so that he wasn't swallowed Up in Too much sorrow, we see his love is evident even for the deliberate sinner, and he could also command those who were in authority in the church to carry out similar disciplinary action, the body of Christ never had the same authority as the elders and the prophets and teachers.

I think our past should definitely direct us in what we say and how we minister love using our spiritual gifts whatever that may be, Jesus said he who is forgiven much loves much.

I've mentioned here before that those who have been forgiven of a lifestyle of drunkenness and drugs often have compassion and the desire for other people to be set free from those same afflictions and sinful strongholds, so in my case because I was delivered from a religious spirit over 10 years ago I do have the desire yes to help people see that same sin and I desire them to be free and to come into that place that many others have come to, and it was definitely a blindness and a deception that comes over a person when they move in false judgment, your post just reiterates that truth.

I've never promoted the idea that people can practice sin and live a sinful life and get away with that.

There's a big difference between seeing the sin in people's lives and judging them for it compared to seeing the sin in people's lives and being broken over it and having that sin so stir your heart into a place where you get caught up in intercession and you stand in the gap for the sinners with tears and with love.

It's easy to recognise the sin in the church and in people's lives and talk about it and gossip about it , an can unbeliever can do that.

Much of that type of behaviour has nothing to do with the love that we are commanded to have for those people whether we consider them brothers or enemies or Neighbours.

I think the description is abundantly clear that shepherd pastors and teachers Shepherd their flock and it is their mandate and job from the holy spirit to function through rebukes reproves and excommunications because they're meant to be elders in a position where they can deal with that without becoming bitter or getting angry at sinners but in a spirit of gentleness as Paul admonishes Timothy to.

Brother it wasn't the body in Corinth that let the sinful one run a bad race it was the elders who had the authority and weren't functioning properly and we're tolerating it, believers were definitely going along with what the eldership allowed and tolerated and accepted, but there was no authority given to believers to override the eldership in the church anywhere in any of Paul's letters or the other apostles letters it was always told for the believers to obey those who have authority over you because they watch over your soul as one who is going to give an account for doing that.

I actually think the big mistake that many Christians make is they don't rightly divide the word of God in this aspect when it comes to the letters that they are written to the historical and biblical context. {Proper exegesis}

The letters were held by the elders and read publicly by command of the apostle Paul as evident in one of his letters he mentions this.

So brother I agree with what you say but I see is clear distinction in the context of authority.

Regarding Titus that's talking about Titus accepting an accusation either from an elder in the church regarding the conduct of another elder or maybe someone that's come directly to him about a crime that has been committed be it sexual or drunkenness ECT This is normal church discipline but this has nothing to do with the body of Christ or believers accepting an accusation, believers would have no authority to do anything in that type of case.

Titus was a bishop and appointed elders and probably didn't deal with pastoral issues, a traveling apostolic missionary probably similar to an apostle in function and he oversaw the function of elders.

Brother I fully understand the context of accusation is used in normal church life for civil life and there's a context in which it must be used for instance if a crime is committed,one should to take that case to the police or the elders of the church an accusation has to be made, I'm not talking about that type of accusation I'm talking about the body of believers accusing one another and judging one another and gossiping and fault finding things like that.

Gary,

1 and 2 Corinthians will argue against your point easily with clarity and far better than any attempt on my part.

Gary,

I've been curious about something for awhile now and I think this thread gives me clear opportunity to ask.

How is it, that no matter the topic, it always comes back to authority and judging others in your posts?

Roberts original post was a wonderful exhortation. How is it that all you seemed to gather from it was who has authority to make which judgments, and telling everyone that holding up a standard is hypocritical?

Well, Brother I'm glad you like the letters to Corinth they are very close to my favorite letters in the New Testament. blessings to you

Evan I did amen Roberts original post.

The topic was about spiritual sight and the teaching that Jesus taught came to mind as I was reading it so I posted what came to my mind.

Jesus was talking about seeing clearly in that context is one of the serious sins that will cause blindness and it's overlooked.

Brother it's just a discussion, in a discussion forum.

Gary.

I probably did a poor job of titling the post. The post content was all about God hearing our prayers and tangentially about seeing God face to face. It really had zero to do with seeing others’s sins. Errant title on my part. God not listening to our prayers when we have habitual sins in our lives is the concern expressed as I found the Spirit leading me. All the Scriptures quoted and paraphrased were on that point.

The OP said:

The easy grace of many avoids the clear truth of OT and NT Scripture that Spiritual sight of spiritual things, especially seeing our our own selves rightly and hearing from God clearly, or at all, AND GOD HEARING US WHEN WE SPEAK TO HIM IS DEPENDENT ON OUR WALKING IN THE LIGHT OR OUR WALKING IN THE DARKNESS AS CHRISTIANS.

(Note: My emphasis in caps).

I do not think that Gary’s post digressed from the OP.

Surely it would be very hard to see the Light and walk in the Light when there is a plank in the eye.

Brother it's just a discussion, in a discussion forum.

Yes! This is a DISCUSSION forum, NOT a teaching pulpit.

I appreciate that Jade, I didn't feel like I disagreed with the original post from Robert either.

Having eyes to "see" and having ears to "hear" depends on whether we have allowed sin to go on in ourselves and/or have allowed idols to be set ...Professor of psychology Asifa Majid said: "Scientists have spent hundreds of years trying to understand how human sensory organs work, concluding that sight is the most important sense, followed by hearing, touch, taste, and smell.” this is not only the result of necessary training, in which blind people learn, among other things, to compensate for their lack of vision with their sense of hearing. It is also due to the neurological development of the brain.
https://core-ball.org/

Robert,

Something I have been looking at recently is what it means to walk in the light. Many, or most believers tend to equate this with simply walking in righteousness or holiness; I'm curious your thoughts.

Specifically with this verse in mind, "that which makes manifest is light".

The Lord has been leading me away from the classical understanding of "walking in the light" for awhile now, I'm curious if we have similar views.

My understanding of it in 1 John has to do with walking in the Spirit who is the glory of God, His divine power and divine nature. That glory is the true "light”.

Jesus of course is that light as the Son of God so we walk in the Spirit of Christ as the same concept.

Additionally, as we walk in His fullness, in the light, we not only reveal that glory to the world, display Christ, at the same time and as a direct consequence, we are transformed into His likeness as we become partakers of the divine nature and conformed to His image. I’m not suggesting we become God or little gods. Just that walking in the fullness of Christ has a transforming and conforming work into the image or likeness of Christ.

Bottom line, the light is the glory of God, His divine power and His divine nature. We are called to live in it and walk in it now and one day it will be all the light needed in heaven. Through that walking in the light, we are glorified in this life called sanctification which is just the process of glorification during this time we live on earth (Romans 8:28 et seq). From one revelation of glory to our souls to the next we become like Him(2Cor 3:18). ….partakers of that divine nature (2Peter1) and as we fill the earth, we fill the earth with His glory or fill the earth with Christ in speech, conduct and character and God fulfills His promise and purpose that the whole earth will be filled with His glory.

Long answer but you asked. :)

Your views?

""For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”” (John 3:16-21)

I think for me this text is the basis.

The Greek here is pretty contextual, so it's sort of pointless to dive into the original. It means... Light.

But Jesus illuminates the understanding I've been coming to pretty well. Light manifests works, whether sinful or righteous. If man does evil he avoids the light because he doesn't want his deeds exposed; transversely if man does what is true he comes to the light, because he has nothing to hide, and in this context it is because his deeds are wrought in God (origin of works comes into play here, Satan or God, the world or the kingdom of God, above or below).

I think the law of first mention solidifies this understanding so far, "let there be light" - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.” (John 1:1-9)

So this understanding, light being the avenue through which things are made known and shown to be what they are is further taught here.

Jesus teaches the as long as He is in the world, He was the light of the world, but now that He is gone, we therefore are the light of the world. This is by virtue of Christ in us. He is still the light of the world via His body, the church (the organism, NOT the organization; not buildings, but the body of Christ).

Jesus said the world hates Him because He testifies of it, that it's deeds are evil. He is light, and exposes the deeds of men, and because He has spoken, their sin remains. So Jesus is "that which makes manifest" to the world, and the church. He exposes the deeds and hearts of men. The world loves hiddenness, hypocrisy, showmanship, and darkness - they love this because they want who and what they really are to remain hidden. The church has come to the light, and in that coming to Jesus, has experienced the cleansing of the blood and the forgiveness of sin. We have allowed Jesus to expose us, and in that exposure hypocrisy and hiddenness disappears and because of that honesty before God, because we have come to Him without pretense and as sinners, God justified us and makes us new (more on this later).

The church is to, in one sense, do the same. Paul mentions this concerning gifts to the Corinthians, but to limit our understanding to simply this narrow view seems shallow. The church exposes the sin of the world through the preaching of the gospel, "to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in" Jesus (Acts 26:18), but the pertinent understanding for the church is fellowship.

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life”” the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us”” that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete. This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.” (1 John 1:1-7)

Fellowship is not horizontal, it is a shared vertical relationship with God. Man has no fellowship WITH each other, but we do share fellowship with Jesus together, in common. The scriptural understanding of fellowship is not fellowship halls and pot lucks, but a shared communion with Jesus. We all individually walk with God, and share that fellowship with Him, corporately alone, as it were.

This togetherness relies on authenticity and reality, and cannot exist in darkness. If we say we have fellowship with Jesus, and walk in darkness (hiddenness) we lie, and do not do the truth, we are hypocrites. If we walk in the light (authenticity and openness), we share together our lives with God, and because we are open about our sin, confessing it one to another, walking in close knit life together where hypocrisy is impossible, we will receive forgiveness and cleansing from our sin. If we hide sin and pretend it isn't there, we will never love God or the brethren.

"Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.” (1 John 2:9-11)

So in short, walking in the light is walking in that which makes manifest, in complete reality and authenticity before God, and therefore before men. I don't see light being equated with holiness, but rather holiness and righteousness being the result of light. Light shows us ourselves, and in that seeing we confess and repent, both to God and men (when necessary), and cleansing happens.

The condemnation of the world is that they love darkness rather than light. So in one sense, people are damned at last because they are dishonest with God about themselves, thinking that they can somehow remain hidden from He who searches the heart and as a result never trust in or follow Jesus.

Jesus is, and gives light to the world. He is the source of it, and in that exposes everything. So light is simply exposure.

Does this make any sense at all?

I have a lot more I've been thinking about in this topic, but space and time both fail me. My view of fellowship was also called into question when praying through this, and a lot of my theology changed as this was revealed to me. I am curious your thoughts and would love some fruitful back and forth.

Thanks Evan for sharing as God has shared with you. I mean that. I actually think we are saying the same thing and I hope to explain how in the following.

We do the works of God in the love, power and holiness of God. It is inseparable as I see Scripture teaching. All light because All Life, and all Glory. Not that I'm right but that's my understanding.

God's glory is the issue in works as it is in adoption, salvation, redemption, good works, creation, etc. I won't quote the Scriptures on this one as you know them well. Thus, unless we have love, our sacrifices, generosity, prophetic gifts (power), etc, profit us nothing because all must be a reflection of the full glory of God, power and nature, as is His ultimate purpose in all things, including good and righteous works. All to the praise of His glory and grace so that He gets glory in the church especially as it pertains to us as saints in our good works. His Glory is Light.

My understanding in all this is rooted in this text......God has shone into our hearts the "light" of His glory in the face of Jesus....His character, His ways, His truth, His good works, His power, His person, His work on the cross which is the ultimate display of Glory.... divine power. and divine nature...His Gospel.

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in trickery nor distorting the word of God, but by the open proclamation of the truth commending ourselves to every person’s conscience in the sight of God.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants. on account of Jesus.
For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

But we have this treasure (His Life which is His Light, John 1) in earthen containers, so that the extraordinary greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;

So, that is my understanding in response to your post. I don't want to talk by you at all and not respond to your understanding. I'm just saying that you are right but I'm adding to works as light everything that reflects God's glory which works do as well and best and most clearly as they are seen most by others. "Good" God works reflect and reveal His Light..... strength and power, His Will and Plan, His Love and Divine Nature and His ultimate purpose. I think we are saying the same thing but in different words.

Anyway, as you say, iron sharpens iron and as it does, hopefully not sparks are produced but gold. :)

Said in jest but meant with integrity. Would love to have your or other's thoughts because in my view this is ultimate reality and we spin our time talking about a lot of peripheral (yet important) things on the forum.

Maybe it has all been discussed before so my apologies to covering covered ground but I know this....the Father loves the sweet aroma of Christ as we spread Him abroad in all our conversations no matter how repetitive.

Robert,

Just to clarify, as I'm a bit confused regarding what exactly you're saying light is, what is your definition of light in this context?

Also to clarify, I am separating works in general from light, and saying light is in fact the means whereby we see the truth and origin of the works. Light shows us the works, and the truth of them, but is not the works themselves.

Motivations, origins, and the end of the works is also made known by the light. Whether a work is righteous or unrighteous, ie. Whether it's end goal and sole motivation is the glory of God (not even right or wrong, I loathe that tree and it's knowledge).

Whether or not the work has its origin in heaven or hell, from God or from man/Satan.

The text you quoted:

"For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” (2 Corinthians 4:6)

This text would be one of the exceptions to my exegesis, as it clearly defines light for us in the verse. This light would be revelatory knowledge, that revelation of the glory of God, the fullness of the Godhead bodily, is only found in Jesus Christ.

I do think we are reaching a similar destination by different approaches, but the fundamental divergence in our thinking may prove to be significant.

I agree as well, this is ultimate reality. To comprehend these mysteries is to comprehend God Himself, as He has revealed Himself, and not how man has made Him to seem.

This is one doctrine the Lord has impressed on me since I've sought to know as Enoch knew... which I've found a dangerous and deadly pursuit.

Thanks Evan,

How would you see this text with respect to your explanation:

"And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power." ?

What I think makes this text consistent with what I said, but obviously did not explain clearly, is that God's divine nature and power found in Jesus are described as the "radiance of His glory". Found clearly in Jesus in this text. Jesus isn't merely speaking the knowledge of God the Father (although there are definitely texts that say that He is that).

This is a a bad example because it is going from the greater to the lesser, but I would ask this...... When we see the sun, do we merely say that the light of the sun is the knowledge that there is a sun? Or, is the light a radiance of the substance of the sun ? I don't think we can separate in the case of God the glory and the radiance of that glory. Thus, the Scripture says "God is light". If I'm right, then the light is the radiance of glory and we know that glory is defined to be the divine nature and divine power in Romans 1.

This is an important topic I think and much more than philosophical. You paraphrased this passage from Matthew 5 in your explanation:

You are the light of the world.......Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in Heaven.

I presume you would agree that the light that we are is the life of Jesus in us. John 1: 4-5. Perhaps I'm reading too much into the texts. I think more is being said when the Scripture says God is light. He doesn't only create light or make revelation of something by light. He is light.

I'm saying all of this not to close the case. And many will think this is an esoteric back and forth that isn't practical. In my mind and spirit, it's very applicable as we are called to be light, display light, and walk in the light. If we don't attempt to grasp what that means, the phrases become part of a common language in churches with no or 10,000 different meanings. Or worse, just bumper sticker theology which is so unhelpful when the commands to be light and walk in light are foundational to being a Christian. So I'm thankful for your original question and your explanation of how you see it.

Robert, you said:
"When we see the sun, do we merely say that the light of the sun is the knowledge that there is a sun? Or, is the light a radiance of the substance of the sun ?"

Now I understand the disconnect we are having. I should have clarified that my main objective was to grasp the function of the light, as scripture is plain as to what the light in fact is.

I said exactly what you said regarding "Christ in us" making us the light of the world, etc.

But to answer your question there directly, no we don't merely say that, that is just one aspect of the answer.

In our context, the light is in fact Jesus Himself, the full radiance and glory of the Father, His fullness in bodily, human flesh, showing us the exact representation of Him. God the Son, the Son of God.

So for me, my pursuit has been the common misunderstanding of that it means to walk in that light, and how I don't believe it to be walking in holiness or righteousness at all.

I would give my other posts a perusal with that in mind, and I think we will find this a new and invigorated discussion.

I agree as well, these are not metaphysical matters, but severely practical. This back and forth has sharpened my understanding already, gold dear brother, no sparks at all.

Agreed.

Do you believe that as we walk with God in light, that is walk in the Spirit, walk in the life of Jesus who dwells in us, that we are transformed into that divine nature inherently as a part of growing into His likeness as our own or are we only during this life and the one to come cleaner and better empty vessels for the fullness and whole of His Life ? If the latter, how would you explain sanctification and becoming holy as He is holy? Or, how would you explain that we are called to have the character of the divine nature:

Rom 5:4

and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

Heb 13:5

Make sure that your character is free from the love of money

Box 2Pe 1:5

Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,

and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,

and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.

For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they do not make you useless nor unproductive in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

These verses informed me on where I arrived on this question but open to better understanding of this. As I said before, I understand Scripture to say that as we walk in His life that our own character/person is transformed and conformed.

I've spent a bit thinking about your question, as I haven't really ever had anyone ask it in quite that way. I appreciate that.

"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20)

To fully answer your question would take pages, but ultimately I think it is "both and", not "either or".

Breaking down what Paul teaches here we see:

It is no longer Paul living, but Christ living in Paul.

Paul is living a life in his body by faith in the Son of God.

Jesus loved us, and gave Himself for us, and it is this ever present "NOW live" reality by which Paul lives.

It's a paradox, a mystery hid from all generations until Paul was given the utterance to speak it and words to write it. In one sense, we are here given the key to walking with God, something everyone before Paul, even angels, looked into.

We are incredibly fortunate to have Paul's writings, such a depth of revelation into the life of Christ in His people, and their life in Him. The most incredible part is that Paul wrote these things with absolutely no purpose other than the he was acting out of the life of Christ in Him, Christ, who is our life. He was completely unconscious to the fact that one day what he was writing would be considered perfectly inspired scripture and including in a canon of books regarded as absolute authority in the christian faith.

Why do I mention this?

Holiness, to be truly holiness, is when we ourselves are completely unconscious of ourselves, even to the point of being ignorant of our own good works. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand does.

Why does this matter?

Because sanctification is both us dying so that resurrection power and life, the life of Jesus in us, can be made more manifest; and also us becoming more and more like Jesus. These things are all already accomplished in the death of Christ; the crucifixion of our old man, the death of self, our sanctification, righteousness, redemption, wisdom, knowledge, all are wrapped up in the work and person of the living Jesus Himself, and nothing else.

In one sense growth in grace is merely growth in the knowledge of Jesus and what He has already accomplished for us on the cross. In this revelation of the finished work of Jesus, we see who we are, and are able to walk in that knowledge by faith.

All things pertaining to sanctification are found in Jesus and His finished work, as it says in acts, we are sanctified by faith in Jesus. Once we realize that when Jesus sanctified Himself, we to were sanctified in Him (John 17), all becomes clear and we can walk in that by simple faith.

Character is nothing more than what we become after a series of decisions. Whether good or bad, our character is the summation of our life and the decisions either to obey, or disobey Jesus.

When one believes he will be able to obey; and when one obeys he will be able to believe. To sperate these in time, we fall into the snare of either legalism, or end up living like the world and in sin believing it doesn't matter because God's grace covers all sin.

So we are both vessels, branches, wives, containers; and also individuals called to follow Jesus in faith.

Does this answer your question at all? I may have misunderstood, and if so, feel free to reword it and I will try again.

Both is a great answer to me. That’s where I am so far. Thanks for considering it. If future thoughts come to you please share.

Robert,

I think I saved your contact info incorrectly. Shoot me an email with your info (that way we don't have to make the exchange here again) and I'll add you again.

Notevanschaible @ Gmail (dot) com

Sent.

I didn't get an email.

notevanschaible@gmail.com

I'll risk the AI troll bots :)

This post is so fascinating or at least should be.
know everyone is probably tired of the back and forth on the Mike Bickle and IHOP issue. For the record, I'm not trying to deal with Mike Bickle and his horrible situation on a personal level at all although much prayer has gone out.

Additionally, some of you may not be aware but IHOP leadership just announced that new information has come to them and based on that disclosure, they are "immediately, formally and permanently" severing any and all ties with Mike Bickle. Tragic ! But the issue of the sin is settled and doesn't even need to be debated now. Just the extent of it is left out there and nobody needs to worry about false accusations.

I did want you guys to see and take a look at the reactions that Dr. Storms has received on his blog site to his and Mike Sullivant's public and private rebuke and expression of concern and urgency to Mike Bickle. It is fascinating to see the points of view and the reaactions of members of the body to Dr. STorms coming forth publicly as the originally posted letter in this thread shows. The variance and passion in the responses is remarkable.

Here they are: ( you will find it fascinating and perhaps concerning. Very worth the read as they indicate the kind of instruction or understanding each of the people commenting has regarding what a member of the body ( a mature former pastor at that ) can or should do in these kinds of scenarios that seem all too much on the increase).

Jack BrakeDec 22, 2023 @ 8:34 am

Curious as to why Chris Reed wouldn't let Mike Bickle's old "friends" and "insiders" past the front door. Interesting. Tough job you have "investigating" another man's sins. And according to the "victim" (and her husband, right?), like Eve, none of it was her fault and she was completely innocent... got it....

Lillian SobhyDec 22, 2023 @ 7:59 am

Sam I respect you so much.
I just wanted to ask you why rebuke Mike Bickle , your friend via a public statement to the World? Why did you not go again to your friend Mike, later to talk with him and listen to his part of the story. You only listened to Jane Doe (DH) but you did not listen to Mike . Please go to your friend listen to him , help him in the repentance healing restoration journey . You owe it to him, you owe it to the global body of Christ, you owe it to The Lord Jesus.
I’m from Cairo Egypt . As we all here, watch how the American church dealt with this sad painful story we are so sad because it is way way far from all Biblical Truth and values. Please go to Mike and talk with him and listen to him and help restore this.
Ps. Because JD is a godly woman as you mentioned in your statement . Is she at all accountable to repent and ask for forgiveness as MB did , from the Body of Christ for engaging in sexual moral failures with a married man ?!
Please help her as well , since you listened to her to walk journey of repentance and restoration
Thank you

Jadi FinleyDec 21, 2023 @ 7:08 pm

Thank you for writing this and sharing it publicly. This is such a heartfelt response from brothers who obviously care deeply for Mike and for the name of Christ to be honored in all elements of this situation. May the Lord’s kindness lead to sincere repentance and forgiveness. Thank you for being faithful to pursue Mike privately and also publicly take a clear stand for righteousness and the authority of Scripture. The Lord is honored in these actions.

scott priceDec 21, 2023 @ 11:41 am

Hi Dr. Storms,

I am not overlooking the heartache in all of this for all that have been directly and indirectly hurt and harmed. If it is too early to address this question, my apologies. If it is ok, though, then my question on general principles of prophesy is: During the years a "prophet" is engaged in ongoing gross sin and/or abusing the prophetic office for personal desires, are the prophesies issued during that time or thereafter if not repented of subject to greater scrutiny, caution or if blatant enough and long enough, dismissal ?

In Mr. Bickle's case, so far, we are talking about at least a several year time frame for an acknowledged failure and abuse. If we take him out of the question for the moment, is there a general principle involved either from Scripture or that is generally accepted that is applicable to my question ?

JillybeanDec 20, 2023 @ 11:09 pm

Thank you.

Thank you for speaking out. It is horrendous that no one dealt with this decades ago. If the prophetic is real, why didn’t God communicate to someone in this vast community about this sin of Bickle? I think the prophetic stuff is a magnum satanic deception. If God were truly speaking, there would be no error and the prophets would be warning of the coming judgment.

KateDec 20, 2023 @ 12:19 pm
Thank you gentlemen.
May His Kingdom come, His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Marieke TwomeyDec 20, 2023 @ 11:24 am

As much as I support Mike being held accountable, I find the double standard to be very misogynistic. It’s the bigotry of low expectations. Please reserve the title "godly woman” for women you would like your daughters to emulate.

CarrieDec 19, 2023 @ 9:33 pm

Well said Michael and Sam! I was also at GTC 1999-2000 along with Allen and Dwayne & Jenn were my home group leaders. So many red flags back them with exactly what "Jane Doe” said in her statement. I saw what was happening and had a hard time understanding what the truth was back then. It’s none of my business but it hits to the core when my close group of friends back then were involved. The Sullivants, Roberts and Sam Storms have long time been genuinely relationally motivated folks.. just like Jesus, they care about the body of Christ as their family. I have high hopes for the church at large shifting away from platform Christianity into more of what Jesus called us to be: humble, honest and learning to love more. Perhaps this conflict will be the catalyst to become more genuine and transparent. Pretty sure most people are tired of the hyper pretense of preforming or striving for the right excellence in regards church… pretty sure many people try church looking for family. My hope and prayers are for this sad situation to open the doors to deeper desires of growing healthy relationships in the body of Christ. Thank you to all the leaders that prioritize this already. Y’all are leading the way

CarlosDec 19, 2023 @ 8:43 pm

I believe in 'personal' restoration so if Mike Bickle would humble himself then certainly his 'personal relationship' with God would be restored completely HOWEVER concerning 'positional authority' i humbly don't have any biblical reference for such restoration could happen even in the matter of King David the direct punishment is severe (the death of Bathsheba's son) not to mention the 'indirect consequences' ( his son raping his daughter end up with his sons killing each other) . While on NT standard it's clear according to apostle Paul that such person will be ineligible to be give position within the body of Christ . I pray for GENUINE spirit of repentance on Mike Bickle but i think it would be more beneficial for the body of Christ ( and i think also even for Mike personally ) that he WOULD NOT be given any leadership position

ArinaDec 19, 2023 @ 8:39 pm

Sam you BETRAYED Mike and you are lying,
You know that Mike is MOST GODLY MAN AND INFLUENTIAL In GLOBAL CHURCH
THIS STACK IS VERY DEMONIC, YOU KNOW IT BC YOU AND ALL,WHI ACCUSE MIKE, HAD THE SAME INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR, SO YOU NEED TO BE ANNOUNCED IN ALL EARTH AND REPENT AND ALL OTHERS HAS TO DO THE SAME
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT MIKE HAS SEX WITH HER,OF HE DID, GOD FORGIVES MIKE, WHO ARE YOU TO THROUGH STONES TO MIKE?!!!!! ARE YOU GOD? ARE YOU JUDGE?
YOU MUST REPENT AND BE HONEST, DON'T LIE PLEASE STOP ACUSING ,GOD IS FIGHTING FOR MIKE

J. GuerraDec 19, 2023 @ 8:30 pm
I echo Greg Beel
…May God give us grace to be tender toward each other, may wounds heal, and may this cause our roots to go deeper into Jesus, the only One worthy.

Banner of JesusDec 19, 2023 @ 7:58 pm

God is calling for a nameless faceless generation.

SheilaDec 19, 2023 @ 6:53 pm

In Christianity, lying is generally considered a sin because one of the Ten Commandments is "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor". Proverbs 6:16-17 says that one of the seven deadly sins God hates is a lying tongue.

SheilaDec 19, 2023 @ 6:51 pm

Sam, do liars go to heaven? Are you a liar?

TMDec 19, 2023 @ 6:37 pm

I have an interesting history as someone raised in the Pentecostal church and then spent some years in the Charismatic movement before leaving for a long season to co-minister in another denomination. I have had some serious misgivings about the movement, in general, for quite a while.

The greatest concern has been the lack of biblical teaching and an over-reliance on "new" revelation and the gifts of the Spirit, as if this is all that
matters. Jesus commanded His disciples to make disciples, teaching them everything He taught them. Paul made it clear in Acts that he was careful to teach the whole counsel of God.

Without proper grounding and without the fear of the Lord, there is no discernment. I have heard all the latest "revelations" and popular teaching and I am aware of the "schools" of ministry out there. In my opinion, most of it is nonsense.

Mike Bickle is a symptom of a much greater problem. The Charismatic movement needs an Asbury call to repent and return to the Truth of Christ, and far fewer "revelations". I would MUCH RATHER have long periods of no prophecy and solid Words of guidance and correction from God FOR THE CHURCH than crazy stuff by or for personalities; goofy, unbiblical "new thing" experiential deception spouted by everyone who thinks they're a prophet, like spray shot from a rifle.

Jon GreyDec 19, 2023 @ 5:47 pm

Thank you Michael and Sam for speaking out. It was comforting to lean on the same, old, familiar bridge of trust you both established with me in the 90’s. My heart is so terribly grieved over all we are learning. Praying for all involved and longing for Jesus to reveal His heart to those who are hurt, disillusioned, angry and sad. He will Redeem.

MarkDec 19, 2023 @ 4:06 pm

Thank you for sharing. . . I fear there is so much more that has been covered up, and people who were innocent, yet accused. . . that will be brought to the light. I pray that God have mercy on Mike and IHOPKC and all those affected by this horrific situation. God have mercy on us all.

ChristineDec 19, 2023 @ 1:52 pm

Thank you for your very kind, truthful words.

I tremble with fear that this may be the beginning of a shaking where judgment starts with the house of the Lord, which includes me. I’m asking God for justice, for mercy, for the Fear of Lord, and for Godly sorrow, for me, and for all of His people.

John R EnderbyDec 19, 2023 @ 1:14 pm

Thank you Sam and Michael for sharing your hearts; accurately, authentically, and honestly. I am grateful for you two men! Blessings, John

SteveDec 19, 2023 @ 12:32 pm

This whole thing has been built on a faulty prophetic foundation by men whose lives were deeply compromised by sin. The prophetic promise oft-proclaimed that Mike's brother Pat would be healed was a lie. And if Mike's prophecy about Diane dying and him marrying Jane Doe is a lie then we can likely dismiss any thoughts of Mike claiming to have ridden on chariots into the heavens and having encounters with God and Michael the archangel. From Augustine to Bob Jones, from Paul Cain to Mike Bickle... we've witnessed "prophecy" being used for ungodly purposes. There was a moment a few weeks ago when it appeared IHOP could be saved if Mike stepped down, but it now appears IHOP must be leveled to the ground and if the Lord WANTS a group of day and night intercessors He will raise one up in His own good time and for His pleasure. That said, I suspect the Lord is more than able to prepare the world for His Son's triumphant return without any help from us since "all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags" before His throne. I doubt that He is moved by our resolve through night and day prayer. The IHOP house was all built upon the sand and now the winds of sin are blowing and the streams of coverups are rising and it is all falling with a great crash. The Lord is cleaning house... and some of those houses are being leveled.