Apostle John Alive And Well In Turkey?

Chris Reed from MorningStar ministries (the church Rick Joyner founded) is now saying the apostle John is still alive and well and is living in a cave in Turkey, and that he will reveal what the book of Revelation "really" means. He claims an angel showed him this in a vision.

He claims to have scriptural basis for this from John 21:22. However, it it clear from the text, if one keeps reading, that Jesus did NOT say that John would not die; John did see Christ at His second coming in his vision on Patmos.

He claims God told him this and that he even met with an angel. Are we supposed to just ignore this and parrot something about not being divisive or "touching the Lord's anointed" when someone is critical of these claims? This man clearly did not hear this from God. Joseph Smith (the founder of Mormonism) claimed the exact same thing.

One of the jobs of a pastor is to guard the sheep against wolves. If you don't do that, the scriptures say you are a hireling.

Here is a link to the original video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzTIYe59E2M

Wonder how he looks for a man age 2017?

So so many of these ministers and prophets say they talk to angels and have angels show them things etc. After a while, it begins to make you feel down here and them up there. Does communication with angels come with the modern "prophetic calling?" What are plain everyday saints to make of all this?

Sorry - duplicate

We should never seek conversations with angels, but it does happen, and it has happened to many godly men. Brother Buck wrote a book years ago, that I read, called Angels on assignment. He had many angelic encounters, and nothing that he wrote in that book that the Angels spoke to him, was contrary to the scriptures. .

I acknowledge Buck etc. and the reality of angels. It just gets a little daunting at times because there seems to be so much of it.

Amen! we definitely do need discernment brother!

Only 2 people in scripture did not die, Enoch and Elijah. The scriptures say clearly that they were taken to heaven; they did not stay on earth. There is no scriptural basis to say John hid in a cave for 2,000 years. Early church records indicate he was not martyred, but likely died of old age.

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not." Matthew 24:24-26

Might this not also apply to saying this about the apostles or prophets?

I have a question for people that seem to accept anything that is called christian: Can you name one false teacher? Just one? Jesus warned us that many (that means a LOT) would come in His name, deceiving many. He said tares would be sown among the wheat.

When I read the scriptures, it seems to me that when there were large prophetic movements, much of it was false, and there were only a few standing up against it. Those people were usually shunned, shouted down and ostracized.

"And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them: thus shall it be done unto them... For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men... A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; the prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?" Jeremiah 5:13,26,30,31

"On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation." (1 Cor. 14:3, ESV)

1. It doesn't say they hear from angels.
2. What Chris Reed claims doesn't build me up and it doesn't encourage me. Instead it grieves me deeply.

Markus

Heberws 1 13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

"Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

Hebrews 13 2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.

"Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God." Colossians 2:18,19

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." 2 Corinthians 11:12-15

Gary-

The issue isn’t whether there are angels or whether they intervene in the affairs of men. Of course they do!!’

The issue is whether one told some dude that the Apostle John is still alive in some unknown cave in Turkey.

Todd that might be your issue but I think the real issue is some people or many people just don't believe that angels minister to people anymore, and if they do it's more of just the theology they believe in rather than something they or there closes friends have experienced themselves.

When my dad was still alive, many years ago, he had his own business. He was an arborist, or "tree topper." A lot of his business was danger tree removal. If you know anything about this, it is dangerous work. He would climb trees, sometimes 80 or 90 feet, with a safety belt fastened around the tree, and metal spurs on his boots for climbing. He would then use a chainsaw to cut limbs off the tree, and sometimes the top.

One time when he was about 80 feet up a tree, he was cutting some limbs off the tree. You have to lean back in your safety belt to do this. The belt broke and he started to fall. He suddenly felt two hands on his back push him against the tree. He was able to climb down.

He believed it was an angel that saved his life. My dad was not given to making up fanciful stories. He was an old logger.

So yes, I do believe in the ministry of angels.

But I don't believe any old story that people tell, especially when it is questionable. I've heard some of the most outlandish tall tales about this kind of thing believed without question, because many christians have had "don't judge" pounded into them for years.

One "prophet" on Sid Roth's program said she went to heaven and said there is a candy land with dinosaurs roaming around up there.

Drifter You probably believed your father saw an angel because he was your father and if Chris Reed come out and said an angel protected him and kept him alive you would probably just dismiss it because of who he is.

But obviously Chris Reed has a lot of respect and family members and close friends who love him and would believe what he says as something that he has experienced as well.

Often our bias does play a major role in whether we will accept the word of somebody else, if John Macarthur came out and said that he started to see angels you'd probably get a lot of calvinists would just believe that.

I'm 100% sure that there would be thousands upon thousands of fundamentalists that would say your father is now a heretic for saying and angel did that or that your father is deceived at all depends on what camp you're in.

Greg made a good comment and I think it's very balanced and correct and it's one of the reasons why many people misinterpret their dream or their experience because often times it's not literal it's allegorical and it has to be interpreted, there's a message within the experience of the dream and or even the vision as we see in revelations it's not all literal but very allegorical

What does the Word of God say?

.......

20 Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them, the one who also had leaned back against him during the supper and had said, "Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?”

21 When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, "Lord, what about this man?”

22 Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? YOU FOLLOW ME!”

23 So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”

John 21:20-23 (ESV)

.......

So, here, the apostle John (who wrote this) wrote:

1.) "...yet Jesus did NOT say that he was not to die;"
and,
2.) Jesus did say (to Peter): "What is that to you? You follow me!"

Could God keep John -- or any others -- alive until he returned? Of course! God has no limits. Yet, the question is not "COULD GOD KEEP" but "HAS GOD KEPT" John (or anyone else) alive for thousands of years to await his return?

This posted passage from the end of John's gospel (in chapter 21) seems to indicate that John did NOT interpret the Lord's words the way that this man interpreted his purported dream.

Even if God had decided to keep John alive, what is it to us? Our responsibility is much more personal and direct:
"You follow me" (John 21:22).

No, there is a fundamental difference between my dad's story and Chris Reed's. My dad didn't say the angel told him that he would be given a new interpretation of Revelation, Chris did. This directly contradicts the word of God (Revelation 22:18). My dad didn't even see the angel that saved him. He just felt two hands on his back push him against the tree.

We MUST test any prophecy, revelation, word of knowledge etc. against the Bible. That is our only metric.

My dad didn't contradict the Bible in what he said. Psalm 91:11,12 says that we have angelic protection at times.

The scriptures seem to warn against people that go into great detail about new revelations given by angels. Islam, Mormonism and many other cults were started in exactly this way.

Chris I think to be fair the question remains an open question and the possibility that Jesus may have done that for John would have remained.

Most of the disciples had trouble understanding what Jesus was saying or what he meant but he did also say that there shall be some here that she'll not taste death until they see the son of man come.

I'm a partial preterist so it's irrelevant for me if John turns up at the end times, except for it would prove me to be wrong I would think.

Drifter that's a good example of what I'm talking about, that is according to your confirmation bias and personal interpretation of revelations which when you look at the different theologians from all the different camps and their interpretations you could possibly be wrong. When it comes to a book like revelations using that for proof texts it's probably not a good idea it's probably wise to not get dogmatic about our own personal interpretation of that book and possibly other books like Daniel and Ezekiel.

When it comes to us it's always good to hold our interpretation as very fallible and not put ourselves into position as the pope of the protestants.

Doing that also helps for us to be able to change our theology and our eschatology as we grow and study the word.

Drifter bringing ones self under a curse by adding to the book of revelations is not the same as having a different interpretation on a verse or a chapter.

From the video I watched, Reed says it was a dream he had that he was sure God gave him. In the dream, the angel that Reed says protects and helps Reed in real life guided him to a cave and there was John and much more. It's easy to pull up on Youtube. Several scriptures used.

I just don't know.

It's not a different interpretation, he says John will tell us what Revelation REALLY means; so for the last 2,000 years no one has really known. That is adding.

Every true believer agrees on the fundamentals of Revelation: Jesus is coming again. When this happens, whether there will be a 7 year tribulation, etc. is okay to question and study.

"I had a dream, or a vision, which of the two I cannot tell. But it was very real. I could see, hear, feel, and even smell the place to which I was taken. There I saw an angel of the Lord named Clarence. Clarence said that he was the angel assigned by God to guide me through life. He took me to a room in heaven with a porthole through which I could see the hidden places of Earth. Under Jerusalem I saw Peter and Timothy. The angel told me that they did not really die, but that they were preserved alive until Jesus returns. They have been living in that cave for the last 2000 years. The angel told me that they were soon going to emerge."

Now what I just wrote is entirely fiction from my own mind. But it begs a point. Since we have no direct proof of either Peter or Timothy's death, we could say, "Well, it is not impossible." But that argument can be used to justify any sort of bizarre false prophecy that we want to accept. The very fact that we would legitimately entertain this option and actually consider this "dream" to be from the Lord is beyond my ability to understand.

Amen Travis.

Drifter you'll find that many true Christians like Jonathan Edwards and John Wesley ,George Whitfield ,Charles Finney don't believe in a seven year tribulation period they're not pre millennialists but are postmilinalists. Many people don't believe in a literal thousand year reign ather Christ returns.

There's more division about interpretation regarding the book of revelations and there is any other book.

One thing is for sure but the body of Christ definitely needs to receive a revelation on what that book means regarding all the allegory and figures of speech.

That's some real strange logic twaneb.

Let's apply that same logic ok where is your proof that you're born again.

With that type of logic we HAVE got no proof that you're even a Christian just your word and testimony you could be a false Christian for All we know.

Gary, you completely missed my point.

It's not heresy to have a different interpretation on some points of Revelation. We know the main thrust of the book.

I am aware of the different eschatological positions regarding the end times. Holding any one of them is not heresy. We see through a glass darkly.

No prophecy in the scriptures is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20).

John was told to not seal the prophecy in Revelation (22:10). We can understand it.

So to say that John is going to reveal to us the REAL meaning of it, is heresy! The book is not sealed.

Gary, all of the false prophets are going to be put to shame on the day of judgment, all of their deceptions and delusions will be stripped away in a moment, and the people who followed them will know they were being fed with chaff. Please start to compare what they say to the written word of God. Please don't be afraid of "touching the Lord's anointed" or committing the unpardonable sin just by using basic discernment.

Many Genuine Christians can't possibly be right in their interpretation of revelations, this is the reason why we contradict one another it can't be post millennial and premillennial it can't be a partial preterest and a futurist view it has to be either or, one or the other.

And no one really knows for sure that's why great men of God completely disagree on the book of revelations.

The point is not really different interpretations etc. The point of condiseration is whether or not the apostle John, according to the word of this modern prophet is alive and well living in a cave in Turkey, to emerge at the end of tinme and show the church what it has failed to ascertain regarding the book of Rvelation.

Is the apostle John alive in Turkey? Isthis true or is this false?

I believe Chris definitely believes that the dream came from the Lord I don't believe he's making it up personally.

did it come from an unclean spirit or did it come from the holy spirit is the question and is the interpretation of the dream fully literal.

1 John 4 â–º
New King James Version\t Par â–¾
Love for God and One Another
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3and every spirit that does not confess [a]that Jesus [b]Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

4You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

I believe this is one of the most important templates in scripture to apply to a person to see whether they are a false Christian or a false prophet false teacher etc.

I think John simplified it to such a point that there was essential Christian doctrine that had to be confessed and believed by the person for them to be operating in the holy spirit.

I think we could probably widen it slightly but it's probably not a good idea to do that because we didn't see the apostle doing it in this case what he's dealing with here with a false teachers and profits of the gnostic religion which was a cross breed Christian pagan religion and so the fundamentals when not believed and for John the main fundamental was Jesus coming in the flesh if they don't believe that they're not of God. We could widen it safely to include the crucifixion the resurrection the Virgin birth etc.

Into that measuring stick Chris Reid would definitely be an orthodox Christian and not a false Christian like a Jehovah witness or a Mormon who clearly would not be able to profess the fundamental basics of the early Christian faith.

The apostle Paul made it clear that there were also false teachers that were Judaizers held on to true doctrine but they also added the Old testament law as a requirement to be saved or just stay safe this would be considered another spirit as well.

Chris Reed is definitely not in either of those two categories he professors all the fundamentals heartedly

Then the question arises, in the letters of Paul that when a prophecy was spoken in the congregation that was still to be tested by the other prophets and probably other elders, this was a test probably done through the gift of discerning of spirits to discern whether the utterance was from the holy spirit or was it from a demon who had crept in all was it someone's imagination or a lie.

Jesus said you'll know them by their fruits and I would think the apostle John was fulfilling that teaching of Jesus when they wrote their letters regarding testing the spirit.
John also goes further to say that evidence was also the one must love the brothers and the Christians and if they didn't they weren't Christians if they listen to the gospel and believed it unlike the gnostics then they were also Christian.

If they also outwardly practice immorality without hiding it and more or less promoting it as did the gnostics due to their twisted theology, that was also a sign that they weren't Christians

The issue is whether the apostle John is alive in Turkey or not.

If it's a true vision he's probably alive in Turkey, if it's a false prophecy he's probably not alive in Turkey. The issue is how can you tell whether it's a true prophecy or a false prophecy that was the reason for my post brother.

All that aside I wouldn't go to Turkey to try and find him

And a false prophecy would make Chris Reed a...?

If you ever in your life held too a wrong doctrine and you taught someone, for instance like Cessationism, what does that make you ? a false brethren or a false teacher.

Or maybe you got it wrong

Nope. There is a difference between having a wrong opinion and saying "Thus saith the Lord."

"And if thou say in thine heart, 'How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?' When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.” Deuteronomy 18:21,22

so you follow all the law Moses

or is that just your opinion ,

Just for the record, Chris has said he is also not a prophet.

But you can have an opinion

Nigel did you know the Testament puts false teachers and false brethren in the same category as false prophets?

I try to rightly divide the word of truth. Does that mean throwing out the Old Testament?

So are you saying in the Old Testament era, people were marked as false prophets who made false prophecies, but people in the New Testament era can make false prophecies willy nilly and still be true believers?

It seems to me that God was showing us how to tell the true from the false. Peter and the rest of the apostles had quite a bit to say about false prophets (none of it good.)

If I quote Habakkuk, that "the just shall live by faith", would you tell me "That's Old Testament, you don't need that anymore"?

It's odd how some people play "Twister" with the Bible when they defend unscriptural practices.

It's gotten so bad that people refuse to separate themselves from preachers and pastors who do things like cutting their hand open to put their own blood in the communion juice, calling the Trinity a "doctrine of demons", getting drunk in the pulpit, hoarding billions of dollars, etc etc.

â—„ Isaiah 38 â–º
New King James Version\t Par â–¾
Hezekiah’s Life Extended
1In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, "Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.’ ”

2Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, 3and said, "Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a [a]loyal heart, and have done what is good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

4And the word of the Lord came to Isaiah, saying, 5"Go and tell Hezekiah, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will add to your days fifteen years.

I just want to show you an example of where a a prophet spoke the word of the Lord and it didn't come to pass and he was obviously not put to death.

Even under the old covenant they were examples of God changing his mind. I don't think Isa was speaking false prophecies.

And it took many years for prophecies to come past up up to many hundreds of years so because a prophecy hasn't taken place it doesn't mean that it's a false prophecy either.

The New covenant repeats the laws that were
being used within the church and we don't see prophets and apostles being put to death or being called false apostles when they either spoke falsely in the name of the Lord.

The apostle Peter did this when he was considered a hypocrite by the apostle Paul for teaching the gentiles to become Jews this is such a serious sin in the eyes of Paul he considered those that were pushing that doctrine as false brethren and yet Peter and Barnabas all got carried away with hypocrisy yet none of them were considered false apostles because they fell into a wrong teaching the apostles were teaching it as if it was a thus says the Lord because that was how the apostles taught the new covenant as if it was the oracles of God.

You have to remember brother the new covenant is a covenant of Mercy and Grace the old covenant and the law was the ministration of death written and engraven on stones and didn't contain the same type of Mercy and patience.

The first council of the apostles in the book of acts clearly showed that the gentiles were not under the judicial or the civil law of the law of Moses and what you quoted would be considered a civil or a judicial matter.

You also have to watch out when you start to delve into the low of Moses and you say well this law is applicable today the Apostle Paul said that you're now obliged to follow every single law if you consider even one law like circumcision as applicable.

We have within the apostles r
Writings how they dealt with sin and wrong teaching or false prophets and how they defined a false prophet which really was similar to the way they did it in the old covenant.

False prophets primarily were not prophets of God and they were prophets of ashtaroth or baal or another another god.

We see Elijah putting to death the false prophets which would have been a part of following the law false prophets always LED people away from the worship of God they weren't just a prophet who got something wrong.

Prophecy doesn't work the same way under the new covenant you you will have prophets that prophesied but you will also have teachers and pastors that will prophesy you will have believers that are part of the congregation that will prophesy as lead by the spirit.

Paul commands us
To all covet prophecy especially out of all the gifts and then prophesy according to your faith you have .

Immature Christians will prophesy you'll have mature Christians that will prophesy , the Bible says your sons and your daughters Will prophesy ,just because someone gets wrong doesn't make them a false prophet in the same way a teacher or a pastor May teach a wrong teaching and then change and realize that he's taught something wrong and correct it and do his best to teach as the lord leads.

Prophets and false apostles were always promoting false doctrine that was considered not Christian it was always considered gnosticism or Judaism blended in with the new covenant, these people whether they were considered false apostles or false prophets always lead people astray from the orthodox religion from the basic fundamental essential doctrines of the crucifixion the Virgin birth the resurrection of the body, these types of Central doctrines were denied by false prophets and false apostles that was how people knew that they were wolves and this is the same way under the Old testament that people knew they would always lead people to worship another God like I said before mormonism and the Jehovah witnesses some would probably put seventh-day Adventists into the category of false religion with false prophets like someone as Ellen J white Joseph Smith, and and Charles Taze Russell. They literally preach another gospel. Men like Chris Reid and Rick Joyner preach the gospel.

I always hear this, that standards for prophecy in the New Testament are different from standards in the old. I see no scriptural basis for such claims.

God can change His mind if He decides to. Hezekiah's extension of life, for example, or Nineveh's averted destruction, were contingent on repentance. This is clearly explained by proper exegesis.

It is a giant leap to compare what the actual prophets said to the crazy things modern day "prophets" are saying.

I personally see nothing but bad fruit and false converts come out of ministries like Joyner's. Just because someone can tick all the right boxes and repeat an orthodox credo means nothing to me. If their lives do not align with the word of God, if they are producing bad fruit, nothing else they say matters. Satan himself could repeat a creed that sounds better than the Westminster Confession or the Athanasian Creed. Like A. W. Tozer said, the devil is a better theologian than any of us, but is a devil still.

The apostle Paul warned about "another Jesus." The prosperity gospel preaches this other Jesus, and men like Joyner are closely aligned with them. Joyner "restored" Todd Bentley into ministry after his adultery and drunkenness escapades, even though according to the scriptures, Bentley is living in unrepentant adultery to this day.

Who are theses false converts you speak of , and how do you know they are false converts out thousands that are part of the congregation . So how many of the congregation do you actually know or met to know there testimony.

Or are you stereotyping them and condemning them , according to your (opinion)

False prophets and teachers come to you on their own behalf. They do not glorify the Lord Jesus Christ who came from the Father. They do not warn others of sins like sexual immorality and food sacrificed to idols. They actually promote idol worship. Although they may display signs and wonders, they glorify themselves and their movements.
Does Chris Reed glorify Christ Jesus or himself? Is his motives for people to follow after Jesus Christ or himself? Seeing how he describes his dreams and visions and has angelic visitations frequently, does the result of that lead people to repentance and to the knowledge of Jesus Christ?

It is God that will judge and what we can do is discern and avoid evil.
If you have been following false prophets teachings, God is patient and kind. Repent and seek His kindness.
Christ Jesus died for you and rose from the dead. He will soon appear to bring judgment on this world. It is not too late to repent and seek His face. God is loving and compassionate.

Grace and Peace,

(Robert Y said) Do They actually promote idol worship? Although they may display signs and wonders, they glorify themselves and their movements.
Does Chris Reed glorify Christ Jesus or himself? Is his motives for people to follow after Jesus Christ or himself?

I thought I would share this sermon on Jesus the bible and the church from three days ago, (it just came up on YouTube), before you judge someone from a clip and wonder if they even preach the gospel, this might provide some balance about what Chris believes and preaches https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NPO6WkWiKE

I'm going to be honest here.

This thread is it's entirety is a complete joke.

A topic that is literally laughable in its subject matter; and everyone here is taking it more seriously than any of you have probably taken anything that's actually in the Bible in the last year.

Chris Reed already paid the guy too, he just has to get his vaccinations before he can fly to Turkey and continue this obvious distraction from following Jesus in reality.

This is exactly what it means, you have abandoned your first love.

Everyone in this thread, including myself, needs to repent; because anyone who takes this seriously enough to believe it, defend it, or argue against it deserves to have their candlestick removed.

People honestly think we are in any other age than the great apostasy? If anyone denies that, I'll point them here, and to Christ Reed and this nonsense. It has apostasy written all over it.

Agreed Evan,

Vain speculation. I wondered why the frenzy of activity on this topic and much less on others.

I posted something with my phone # and email for you and then deleted it several hours later. I'm assuming you saw.

If I set something off negative I can apologize if it affected others but I don't feel I was really doing something all that wrong. It's just that the more I thought asbout it, this thing about John and Turkey etc. might be the most astonishing way out there ripe to be questioned thing I ever heard from the modern prophetic movement or whatever it is called at this point. It also made me think again of how there seems to be a class of prophetic ministers these days who go about operating, or supposedly operating, way above what the normal plain everyday Christian experiences. Yet most of them believe and adhere to the fundamentals of the faith, so it is even more perplexing. They seem up there above to a degree and the rest of us down here. Maybe it is supposed to come with their calling. Who knows. I guess they have good fruit in many cases, Reid included. He doesn't seem apostate or anything in doctrine. But still, if this thing about John is true, he would be the only person in history God has revealed this to. One can't help but pause and question at such a staggering claim! I've heard many of these ministers talk about communicating with heavenly beings etc. as if almost on a regular basis. So much for the rest of us. No grievous sin is happening because Christian hash such things over. I won't come under condemnation for mentioning it. Jesus said deception will be so thick at the end of the age that if possible, it will deceive even the very elect. That means the deception will so resemble the real thing that it will be hard for even the elect who are walking close with God to discern the real from the false. Very very sobering. I'll try and say no more but no one has done wrong in my opinion discussing this a bit. The claim about John and Turkey is too bold and large to just let lie and say nothing. But let's put on charity and not give Greg a reason to have to close this thread.

Blessings upon every one. May your walk today with Jesus be fruitful and good.

Robert,
You will have to email me your number, i think I saved your contact incorrectly.

Docs,
They are false prophets. They masquerade as angels of light. Your perplexity is no surprise, their purpose to is to cause that exact confusion, and lead any and all astray under the mask of truth. They don't need you to accept them, just doubt the real. As long as they toss people around they are accomplishing their goal. If they are accepted, than by necessity any and all that don't accept them are doubted and cast aside, and those that don't accept them will be the true, the real, those sent from God in truth. So to even give them anything, even an inch, is to offer them the entirety; because to offer them a place at the table is to alienate the truth - as the truth is opposed to them.

For or against Jesus - all or nothing; truth or lies; curiosity or reality; Jesus or Judas; the kingdom of God or the kingdom of this present world/Satan.

Repent or... Well... perish.

It is the last time, Jesus warned us clearly what to look for. Follow Him, obey Him, trust Him, and nothing else, especially not your own understanding, let alone some other greedy false prophets. I wonder how much ad revenue he took in from all the social media clicks.

Disgusting.

Hi Evan. I tried to email to you at an email address beginning with "note.” I was notified that it was undeliverable. My email is (deleted.). Hopefully you now have).

MorningStar Ministries Statement of Faith

The following is a statement of our position of basic Christian doctrines. As once stated by a great missionary, "There are certain basic Christian truths about which there must be agreement. On all other doctrines there should be liberty. In all things there must be charity." It is our resolution to take an uncompromising stand on the essential doctrines of the faith, and extend "the right hand of fellowship" to all who hold to them. It is also our resolution to protect the liberty of Christians to hold different perspectives on the "non-essential" doctrines.

There are doctrines we may consider non-essential, but which are important. We therefore make known our belief on these, while presenting them with tolerance toward those who may hold a different position. We are committed to truth and accuracy in doctrine, but also understand that one can hold right doctrines and still do damage to the body of Christ by causing divisions over the non-essentials. We are therefore just as committed to the essential Christian character, believing that "In all things there must be charity." As the apostle stated, "The goal of our instruction is love, from a pure heart and a sincere faith" (I Timothy 1:5). That, too, is our goal and commitment as we promote the following teachings that we hold as truth:

On the Person of Jesus

There is only one true God, Who is revealed in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is the Word (Logos) of God. The Word was with God in the beginning, which states His pre-existence as one with God. "By Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth" (Colossians 1:16), therefore making Jesus the Creator. Jesus Christ is the Purpose of God found in all of creation. He is the Father's delight and desire, and the Father is looking for the reflection of His Son in all created things. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. In the beginning, it was the ultimate purpose of God for all things to be summed up in Christ (Ephesians 1:10).

Jesus Christ, Who pre-existed with God in the form of God, emptied Himself to become fully a man that He might be the propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Through His propitiatory sacrifice made on the cross, all who believe in Him and His sacrifice have their sins remitted and are restored to the fellowship with God lost by man's transgression.

Jesus was born of a virgin, by the seed of the Holy Spirit. His virgin birth is a testimony that only the Spirit can beget that which is Spirit. Those of the new creation are not solely of human origin, but are born from above by the Holy Spirit. The resurrection of Jesus' physical body after His crucifixion was literal, as will be the resurrection of both the just and the unjust on the Day of Judgment.

"There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Timothy 2:5). All who seek restoration and fellowship with God must go through Jesus and cannot approach God through any person, spirit or doctrine. It is also a supreme presumption for any person or institution to seek to be mediator for others in place of Christ Jesus Himself.

The apostolic commission was for His followers to labor until Christ was formed in His church, to present every person complete in Christ, and to manifest the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place. When Jesus is lifted up, He will draw all people to Himself. We consider it the primary purpose of the church to esteem and exalt Jesus in every way. It is the focus and devotion of MorningStar Ministries to know and preach Him, and not ourselves. We pray for the grace to continually respond to His call to return to our first Love, that we might passionately devote ourselves to pleasing Him in all things while preparing for His return.

On Man

We believe that man was created by God from the dust of the earth, without sin or the knowledge of good and evil. The first man, Adam, transgressed the command of God, and as God had warned, the process of death entered him and all of his descendants because of that transgression. Therefore, all have sinned and are worthy of the sentence of death. Because of our unrighteousness, we are unable to approach a holy God, except through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. Through Jesus, we not only can come before the Throne of Grace, but we may approach it boldly since our confidence is not in ourselves, but in the Lord Jesus.

On the Atonement

Because all have sinned and are therefore under the sentence of death, all must trust in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus for the remission of sins. There is no other way to reconcile with God or escape from eternal judgment, except through the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus.

Those who trust in Jesus Christ have access to the Throne of Grace by His sacrifice and by His sacrifice alone. Good works are acceptable to God only as a love offering given to Him because of His worthiness, and have no bearing on our acceptance, standing or approval, all of which were accomplished by the cross. Good works offered for the purpose of acceptance, standing or approval are therefore an affront to the cross by which all of these things were gained for us by Jesus. Good works are not offered for His approval, but for His joy and glory, and must be offered through the Son (I Peter 2:5) in obedience to Him. Therefore, the goal of our service is obedience and not sacrifice.

On the New Birth

Believing in our hearts that Jesus is the Son of God and in His propitiation made for our salvation results in a regeneration and renewal that constitutes our new birth into new creations. Although this does not imply immediate perfection in our temporal life or lifestyle, it does mean that true faith will result in a radical change in us. Being "born again" implies a new beginning, not an ending. Christian maturity in faith, truth and life is a process. Even so, this process must begin with spiritual regeneration or new birth. While it is possible to change our behavior without regeneration, changing our hearts requires the new birth, and it is our hearts upon which God looks.

On the Purpose of Faith

True faith is of the heart and not just the mind (Romans 10:10). God's purpose in requiring faith for salvation is to raise our focus and concentration above the temporal to the One who is eternal. Therefore, the gospel that is able to save souls must be preached in the power of the Spirit of God. The gospel is not dependent upon human eloquence or persuasion that may change minds, but cannot change hearts. Only the Spirit of God can reveal the Son of God, and only the Son of God can reveal the Father.

On the Authority of Scripture

We believe in the Divine inspiration and authority of the 66 books of the Holy Bible as the complete canon of God's testimony to mankind. We are committed to esteeming Scripture as the very Word of God, inerrant in its original form. We do not accept any doctrine which contradicts Scripture.

We understand that there are many practices and doctrines that are considered orthodox which do not contradict the Scripture, but which are not directly addressed in His Word. We are committed to giving liberty in the belief and practice of these teachings, but we will endeavor to maintain the simplicity of the biblical testimony and its stated practices as we are given grace to perceive them. We do not accept any spiritual experience as having its source in the Holy Sprit that does not have a precedent in Scripture. We do not accept any revelation, vision, dream, prophecy or discernment as truth which contradicts Scripture, or cannot be verified by it. We do not believe that any other writings have the same authority as the canon of Scripture.

On the Lord's Supper

We acknowledge the ordinance of the Lord's Supper in remembrance of Jesus and as a testimony of our communion (common-union) with Him in His body, the church. We consider it a holy ordinance, but we do not accept the teaching that communion is for the purpose of remitting sins, which Scripture testifies is based solely in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross (Hebrews 9:25-28).

On Water Baptism

We believe that water baptism should be by immersion and accomplished immediately after commitment to the Lordship of Jesus and His atoning sacrifice for our sin. This ordinance is a personal and public statement of faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ on our behalf, and is a commitment to lay down our lives to be one with Him in His death, burial and resurrection.

On the Baptism of the Holy Spirit

We believe that the "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is an additional impartation which may be subsequent to regeneration (see Acts 8:15-17 and 19:1-6). This baptism is usually accompanied by the gifts of the Spirit, such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc.

We believe that this gift is presently available to all who believe (Acts 2:38-39), but is not essential for salvation or regeneration. While these are accomplished by the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:1-7), there were disciples who did not even know that there was a Holy Spirit. Just as Paul made it a priority to instruct those believers and pray for them to receive this gift, we are committed to doing the same.

The purpose of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is to impart spiritual power to the believer to be a witness (Acts 1:8, 5:32). This baptism is to be distinguished from being filled with the Spirit (Acts 4:31, 7:55, 13:9,52), which can be a special and repeated empowering for specific purposes.

We believe that when Christians truly have been baptized with the Holy Spirit, they should begin to take on His nature and fruit, becoming "helpers" and "comforters", leading others into truth, and testifying of Jesus.

On the Present Ministry of the Holy Spirit

We believe that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8) and that His ministry in and through the church by the Holy Spirit has not changed from the beginning. We accept, acknowledge, encourage and seek all of the biblical gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit as present and vital for the church to accomplish her full purpose today.

On the Second Coming of Christ

We believe in the literal, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ to take authority and rule on earth. We believe that those who are alive and remain at the return of our Lord will be changed and caught up to be with Him in the air. Those who have died in the faith will be resurrected and precede those who are alive in being changed and caught up to be with Him.

We believe in the literal, physical resurrection of both the just and the unjust for the Day of Judgment. For those of us who have been justified by faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on our behalf, this resurrection is for eternal life in fellowship with God. Those who are not justified by faith in Jesus are resurrected for an eternal judgment. (END)

docs: Part of what I don't understand and is perplexing is that many of these ministers are sound in basic orthodox doctrine and aren't living lives of immorality etc. I don't guess all are rich and some live near modesty or in modesty.

People like Reid, leader of MorningStar Ministries, are sincere and help many peopple and are not two horned devlish prophets out for only their own good, deceiving and being deceived.This brother Reid is involved in the training of others and has many good sermons and teachings. But in many, not asll, there just seems to be loose ended type of things like the apostle John and Turkey. While living in Tallahasse, I attended a meeting and the best known prophet in America was ministering. He said many good things but at one point said that the fact that Coach Bobby Bowden's team won his very last football game before retiring was a sign of a new and fresh spiritual beginning coming to Tallahassee and Tallahassee would become a famous name for revival and spiritual things. Winning the last football game was a sign of this he prophesied. He also said that flying in to Tallahassee he could sense heavenly beings hovering around the wings of the aircraft. So there is lots of good many times but still things are also said that makes one wonder. Same with Reid I suppose. Not an evil guy dedicated to knowingly deceiving others at all. So most ministers who speak commonly of heavenly beings and speaking with them or being shown visions by them and other out of kilter spiritual things are also saved born again people in my opinion. So I remain a bit perplexed. Perhaps I'm not quite over the truckload upon truckload of "prophets" who unflinchingly prophesied that President Trump hands down beyond question would be elected again and serve a second consecutive term. So I remain a bit puzzled that many of the off the wall things and obvious outlandish claims ("the Spirit told me and would say"...) seem to come from dedicated ministers who love God and Christ. But something isn't right in my opinion. One doesn't feel at rest with all the prophets and prophesying going on as they run to and fro in the land. Many say what others have said and present it as fresh authentic prophecy. And I was reading again about prophets forecasting 2024 being prophesied as a year of divine breakthroughs. That's been the same word at the beginning of each year as long as I can remember. Far from fresh and authentic.

Sorry, I sat down and just started writing. I may have bored you. Likely I'm preaching to the choir, I know that. Venting likely. I guess I need to tend to myself a bit.

Blessings.

The best way to know what is a counterfit product is to get to know the genuine product.
And this is part of the problem. It is difficult to find genuine Gospel preaching.

Therefore I urge everyone who thinks there is some truth in such "prophets" and movements to keep searching for the true Gospel and the true Christ.
In another thread Y. Robert wrote:
"I fell into their deceptions long ago and was very intrigued by their movements. However, God never gave up on me and took me out. It was painful and had hard times during that process..."

Don't give up and be prepared to go through that process.
In the end you will find unspeakable joy and everlasting peace.

May the Lord help you and give you understanding

Markus

It's impossible for me to believe that the Apostle John has been alive all this time living in a cave in Turkey and not once done ANY ministry to the church or the world this whole time. Just not believable one bit.

-Daniel

Wonder how he looks for a man age 2017

Good question. I'm 61 years old and my hair (whats left of it) is turning white, lines grow on my face, and this belly fat stubbornly refuses to yield.

Also, I wonder if he's been collecting social security all these years (if they have such a thing). If so, imagine their shagrin at his longevity.

Docs,

Those are all just words on a website. They mean nothing.

Hi Gary. It isn't my opinion. People like Todd Bentley, who Rick Joyner fully endorses, preach a man centered gospel. As I've said before, I don't need to know every one of them, just like I don't need to know every Hare Krishna or Hindu to know they have a false belief system.

I know enough of them. I have seen the damage and ruined lives.

I've read books by Rick Joyner, Charles Capps, Kenneth Hagin, I've heard sermons by people like Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, Benny Hinn; I know what they say does not line up with scripture.

If I lived in the time of Ahab and Jehoshaphat, when they went to war against the Syrians at Ramoth Gilead, and I heard someone saying "That Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah sure is an awesome man of God! Look at his horns of iron! What a prophet!" I would know the person saying that is not hearing from God. Keep in mind, Zedekiah spoke in the name of Yahweh. But it took Micaiah the son of Imlah to expose him, and all the other false prophets. He was punched by Zedekiah and thrown into prison for his trouble.

Docs said:

But something isn't right in my opinion.

This cannot be overstated. For those of us who have been born again, the Spirit is faithful to help us discern and test the spirits.

The fact that something doesn’t sit right with us does not mean we are the ultimate judge, or that we are the best informed person on any given matter. Our reservation may simply mean that we should be slow to speak, even slower to follow or promote (a teaching, a word, or a person), and that we would do well to keep trusting God to lead us in the way, the truth and the life.

Like was said in another thread. Time will tell!

What is challenging on forums, maybe especially on SI because of how extremely serious many of the regulars that post here are, is that it can be difficult to have a "casual” sincere conversation exploring a topic, because some people have already made up there minds and are so confident that they are right, and in their assurance (combined with their personality and maybe even gifting) their words can come across like a hammer striking an anvil.

When all we have to go on is a persons posts, with so little context as to who they fully are in Christ, it’s easy to impute wrong motives and make hasty judgements about them and their views, let alone the people who we are talking about, especially if none of us know them personally (i.e. like with you talking about Rick Joyner as an example). I’m not saying we can’t or should not talk about such matters. It’s just very difficult on here, as conversations often devolve into (I perceive) fleshly rants or posts against a person on SI. 🫤😖

Docs, I appreciate your humility on here lately brother. It’s refreshing. I know you have some pretty strong convictions, but the way you write seems very careful and intentional to preserve as much unity in the bond of peace as possible, while at the same time not glossing over or avoiding things that concern you.

Bless you dear brother.

This was posted just now by SI from its vault. Not sure how these choices are made but it is apropos. Concerns nonsense prophesy praised by man centered folks and the kind needed in this time given the spiritual conditions.

Text Sermons : ~Other Speakers S-Z : Andrew Strom : IS THE PROPHETIC MOVEMENT FAILING GOD??\t

Open as PDF

In recent times I have come to believe more and more that the prophetic movement worldwide is failing God. In fact, I have become convinced that God is angry with many of His modern-day prophets.
The reasons are obvious. We live today in the age of the 'Lukewarm' church - a church that is at imminent risk of being "spewed out" of the mouth of God. I believe that God raised up the Prophetic move specifically to awaken and challenge and convict His wayward people before it is too late. But the history of the Prophetic - just like other movements that have gone before - is a history of compromise. Too many prophets have made themselves thoroughly comfortable with the present system. They know that if they keep their mouth shut in certain areas and "emphasise the positive" (as the old advertising slogan goes) then they can do quite nicely for themselves without too much risk. Thus, through their silence they have become nodding supporters of the status quo. They are Laodicean prophets in a Laodicean age.

But it is worse than that. You see, God gave to this movement an abundance of signs and gifts so that the people would listen when these prophets spoke on His behalf. But to a very large extent the visions and gifts have been used to thrill and entertain, rather than to make people sit and listen to an 'uncomfortable' word. In fact, there are no uncomfortable words coming from the mouths of these prophets! They are most unlike any prophet you will ever see in the Bible - men who knew how to "cry aloud and spare not". -Which is exactly the kind of preaching that a lukewarm church most needs to hear. Don't hold your breath if you expect to hear such preaching today!

Speaking specifically about the Laodicean church, Jesus said: "As many as I love I REBUKE AND CHASTEN: Be zealous therefore and REPENT" (Rev 3:19). Because He loves His church, Jesus seeks to warn and rebuke her before it is too late. It is totally obvious what message a prophet must bring in a lukewarm age. It is right there in black and white. "REBUKE AND CHASTEN" - a call to large-scale REPENTANCE. Prophets have always been appointed to be God's mouthpiece - to represent His heart. And there is simply no doubt what they should be doing in any "Laodicean" situation. Today's prophets are utterly failing God in this regard.

I believe that God gave one of the most key mandates to the modern Prophetic movement in 1982 when He said: "I am going to change the understanding and expression of Christianity IN THE EARTH in one generation." I believe this movement was sent to essentially proclaim this to the church - in the fullest degree:- A tidal wave of MASSIVE CHANGE. There is no doubt that it is a very threatening message to the Laodicean status quo. But we were supposed to STAND on it and PROCLAIM it in the most radical sense. The fact that the prophetic movement drew back from this radical role in the church is a travesty. In fact, it is a disaster.

What we have now is a prophetic movement that can live quite happily with the status quo - side by side with a thoroughly lukewarm church. We hold our conferences and give our positive and glowing messages of the "great days ahead" with barely a hint of "rebuking and chastening". After all, we wouldn't want to 'offend' anyone, would we?

The Prophetic movement that God desired to be at the centre of a great vortex of "CHANGE" affecting the whole body of Christ, is now little less than a "sideshow". -A safe, predictable sideshow that people can visit if they want to hear some warm prophecies about themselves or the church. We have sidelined ourselves with our compromise. The movement that was supposed to be a THREAT to compromise and lukewarmness - and its leaders - has now become compromised and lukewarm itself. It has lost its reason for being. It is an accepted part of the 'system'. It challenges almost nothing.

Church leaders talk about "making a place for the prophetic" in their church like it was some tame little dog that they need to find room for. Just another little flavour to add to the mix. But it was never supposed to be that way. The prophetic was supposed to THREATEN AND SHAKE EVERYTHING. That is what prophets were sent in to do when Israel was backslidden, were they not? It is the same with the church. Can you imagine Jesus arriving in a lukewarm church and NOT shaking everything?

There is all this talk about "coming Elijahs" today. I tell you, if Elijah did arrive in the church, most of these people would not know where to hide themselves quickly enough. Do you think he would stand for the nonsense that we call "charismatic church meetings" today?

The time has come for TRULY RADICAL prophets of God to arise. The hour is late and the time for measured and mild words is at an end. Prophets, let the fire of God consume you, and come forth bearing words that will SHAKE THE CHURCH. Nothing less will do. A tepid and insipid Prophetic? -AWAY WITH IT FOREVER!!

Andrew Strom... I haven't heard that name in a long time.

Me either.

Wow! Flashbacks! Andrew Strom’s teachings and prophetic voice were instrumental in helping me leave the institutional church system (the 501c3 business of church).

I even traveled to a conference he preached at.

There were many nights way back in the 2000’s that I would be awake in the night praying, studying the Bible, and reading (or listening to) Andrew Stroms messages.

But after attending the conference he peached at, and spending a little time with him in person, and seeing his family, it changed my perspective (of him as a husband and father).

I didn’t immediately dismiss his teachings, because much of his prophetic voice resonated with me, and still does.

But I would say it helped me take him of a pedestal (in my mind), which is something I’ve struggled with my entire life. Idolizing leaders.

Anyway, thanks for posting this timely message brother Robert.

The way you and Evan have been so present in many threads together lately has been interesting to observe. This thread is no exception. I’m glad the two of you are seeking to carry on conversations offline, and pray it’s mutually edifying.

I have tremendous respect for people that have the courage, love and determination to get to know other outside of the confines of a forum.

Much love in Christ to you both (and all). ❤️

Hi All,
I looked at this post and thought it was April fools day laugh out loud.This is beyond a joke ....Come on lets get back to reality here,
urs staff

Oh, this Reed guy is talking falsety. The enemy is using him to create distraction.

Maybe it was this fellow instead. ;)

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi1EEvpqMtm9QBqhaLRiOZu8RXe8F_HdeSpNgmOM0mHEjT-hu6O2myRXkrVXQFNNd8L5yDEfpcrq8A168grhAVj47S4byxHR0WSIlFTRA0JCLqRq6e9nZhxTOmM-kY3v8QH_q7xvEW1PxNvBT2d2-AZaULld_VG6fuQijHX3DevjvEIcVN9IejMgcEV/w640-h270/LC%20theory%204.jpg

Lol

Believe it or not the old knight from The Last Crusade immediately came to mind when I first read this story. Best choose wisely.