I received an email from someone who received a Gospel Tract over the weekend. I wrote him an extremely thorough email and was able to answer all the questions he had. He has just emailed back saying that he is a little bit confused. This is what he wrote:"Thank you for having the time to respond to my letter, but I must admit I am a little confused. You speak of god giving us a conscience, but didn't we in fact steal this from him. Didn't we eat the forbidden fruit and in doing so it allowed us knowledge of wrong? So in fact it is our own initiative that allows us to determine right from wrong and therefore if we remain ignorant then we'll go to heaven anyway..."Did God give us our conscience, or did it come from the knowledge of good & evil? What is the 'work of the law' mentioned in Rom 2:15? Was God talking about all people when He said He would write His law upon our hearts or is that once you are born-again?If anyone has an answer to this question it would be greatly appreciated. I am just after a thorough, biblical understanding of this before I respond to his email. It was a good question and one I have never had asked before.Thank you & God bless you,Nath.
Did God give us our conscience or did we steal it?
Did God give us our conscience, or did it come from the knowledge of good & evil?What is the 'work of the law' mentioned in Rom 2:15? Was God talking about all people when He said He would write His law upon our hearts or is that once you are born-again?Hm. Did God give us a conscience at the initial breath of life? He gave us a powerful mind at conception but did He give us a conscience? I believe we had that conscience in us at conception. Conscious itself was not transfixed in us when we ate from the Tree of Life. I believe it came to life when we disobeyed the Creator, but nevertheless I believe it was always there. A baby, has no real discernment between right & wrong. But a conscience isn't instilled in him when he grows old enough, it is innately there.In Romans 2:15, I believe that it reads: Even though the Mosaic law was not applied to the Pagan Laws of the time, the pagans still honoured certain laws such as caring for the sick & elderly, honoring parents & condemning adultery (NIV Study Bible). These things were written on the hearts of all men. What the Jewish law did for Israel, the moral nature of pagans, enlightened by conscience fucntioned for them. Therefore saying that the natural conscience of the mind bore witness & their thoughts accused.All men =) As the explanation was revealed in the Italics.With His Love-TH
You're going to get the "go-around" with some unbelievers, to distract from the main message of Christ and Him crucified and WHY He was.But God gave man 'conscience', ALL good things, come from Above. But I don't see where it matters, 'where' it came from ... just that we're in a mess without Christ.But you could show him these Scriptures.Rom 2:15 is talking about all men, having a conscience, and in this case, it points to unsaved. The main message, is they are "Without Excuse" for refusing so great a Salvation.Rom 1:19 Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest it to them, Rom 1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead--to their being inexcusable; Rom 1:21 because, having known God they did not glorify Him as God, nor gave thanks, but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened, Rom 1:22 professing to be wise, they were made fools, Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of fowls, and of quadrupeds, and of reptiles. Rom 1:24 Wherefore also God did give them up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies among themselves; Rom 1:25 who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.Rom 2:14 For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law--to themselves are a law; Rom 2:15 who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending, Rom 2:16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my good news, through Jesus Christ.
...God IS our conscience. it kind of reminds me of the force in star wars. lol, but he's that voice of reason. so often we think that the part satan likes to play in our minds are a part of our conscience aswell, which is totally bogus, satan would love you to think that, it gives him a little more of a say over what you do. so dont give him that satisfaction.
...God IS our conscienceI don't think this is true; it sounds good but doesn't square up to the biblical revelation. Rom. 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom. 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) It is the function of the conscience to 'bear witness' to 'the Witness'. God's Witness is always infallibly right, but the state of our own 'consience' will determine the way in which it responds to God's Witness.We took a look at Conscience and the Hearta little while ago.
philologos, without using direct verses, there's something ingrained in each person that there has to be so much more to life than this. We all have this concept of 'right and wrong' perhaps it comes from conditioning, because when you're very early on in years 'sexual abuse' means nothing to you, but as we grow we come to realise that there is a right or wrong, even the unsaved realise and work with a 'conscience' so to speak when they work towards 'common sense' i see a lot of people who basically keep the law of the lord but in their hearts there's disconnection, hurt and barricades,like a preacher from my youth said the other night, there's something in each of us that still holds a vague memory of a perfect garden, a spiritual link through the generations that holds a sentiment of what it was to walk with God every day and actually talk directly to the creator of the universe, just like the inherited curse of the fall. that is, until we accept the fact that he's already paid for that fall in our lives, philologos i fully respect where you're coming from, im still trying to find a scripture to back myself up, but can i ask you to really feel for what i'm saying before you reply, just talk to the Holy Spirit.your quote in romans was really enlightening, i cant understand the king james version for the life of me, but i went away and re read the section in the NIV translation, after reading it i'd agree the conscience is a gift. but i let my conscience be of the Holy Spirit which is God, which brought me to my original conclusion, and since have been calling my conscience a communication method of God's. i don't want to come across asthough i've just accepted everything a preacher has said without chewing the cud but they said something that has just stuck with me and many others that i talk to about this, -the conscience is an in-built alarm system like emotions and physical pain its another instrument to help you navigate this world, its been given to you by God. but i wouldnt mind it if someone would like to clear this one and the next thing up for me:whats an unsaved person's conscience? is that to say that God doesnt talk to us via the Holy spirit before we are saved? i know the baptism of fire comes after the prayer of repentance but does that mean we can only be subjected to Jesus and God the father outside a relationship with him?
hi, dont mind this space, my computer was being a little dumb and i thought the first message didnt go through, this is just an edit to save space...
Interesting thought about stealing a conscience from God at the Garden of Eden. Eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.In Genesis 2, we see many trees made, but only two described:8 The Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there He placed the man He had formed. 9 The Lord God caused to grow out of the ground every tree pleasing in appearance and good for food, including the tree of life in the midst of the garden, as well as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God gives specific instructions concerning the trees and the fruits they bear:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die." As we know, Adam and Eve both ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil therefore defying the commands of God. Is it possible to say that this is where the conscience comes from? Sounds possible...what are some other thoughts on this?The main point though is that we DO have a conscience and the conscience convicts us on a moral level. It bears witness against or for us and it leaves us without an excuse before God.
Can we all agree that our heart could be our conscience?If so...1John 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. :20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. :21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God.This is saying our hearts can be wrong. Lets not forget, Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I am just saying that our conscience should be tought rightly in order for it to be of good use.By the way, I agree with philologos It is the function of the conscience to 'bear witness' to 'the Witness'. God's Witness is always infallibly right, but the state of our own 'consience' will determine the way in which it responds to God's Witness.
philologos i fully respect where you're coming from, im still trying to find a scripture to back myself up, but can i ask you to really feel for what i'm saying before you reply, just talk to the Holy Spirit. This sounds as if I am doing something different to what you suggest. What do you think I am doing? :-)
Can we all agree that our heart could be our conscience? These terms are much more difficult to put into little boxes that many imagine. Do you believe that we are given a new heart in regeneration? Does that mean we have been given a 'new conscience'? Can a 'new conscience' then become defiled and seared? Then what? would we need to be born-again again?
The following is my opinion, though I may state as fact for convenience sake. These are some observations and conclusions I've come to while focusing on these things in recent months. This is a deep topic it seems. I think it's important to first establish a common ground on what we believe about humans. I think most here believe that humans, like God, are tri-part. We are body, soul, and spirit. And then I think that most here believe that our souls are mainly tri-part. That the soul is primarily made up of the mind, will, and emotions (I believe those are the classic distinctions). I think it's better to think of the soul as composed primarily of thinking process, will, and instincts. Since these 3 parts of the soul are always influencing each other, they can not be separarted, but they can be distinguished (like God, I suppose). When we use the word "mind," we are referring primarily to the thinking process part of the soul. When we use the word "heart," we are referring primarily to the instincts part of the soul.I have heard some teach that the conscience is synonymous with the (human) spirit. But I am not convinced of this. I have recently come to believe that the conscience is like a link or bridge between the soul and the spirit, and it is most closely related to the heart (instincts). That is, the part of the soul that the conscience is most directly related (or possibly "connceted") to is the heart. So far, these concepts have seemed to hold up biblically. But I haven't held them very long yet. We'll see. I have also come to firmly believe that our conscience is not God. In fact, I don't even believe that our conscience is the same thing as God's voice. I do, however, believe that God uses our conscience to communicate with us, so perhaps in an indirect sense one might consider it like His voice. But it seems clear that they are not synonymous, and that obeying our conscience is not necessarily the same as obeying God. But we do need to keep our conscience clean, so they may often go together.
Do you believe that we are given a new heart in regeneration? Does that mean we have been given a 'new conscience'?I might think so. Remember that when we were not Christian, our desires were our own and were selfish and worldy with the world's values. When I became saved, my desires turned from the world's and my own desires to God’s.Before I was saved I never desired to do anything with God, but now my desires are only with Him and for His glory. Philippians 2:13 “For God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey him and the power to do what pleases him.”God puts His values and HIS desires to into ours hearts. HE wants our life and our actions to reflect or be replaced by His.Before we are save our minds (hearts, conscience) are reprobate.Romans 1:28 “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting.”But, when we become saved we receive the mind of Christ.1Corinth. 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ."Can a 'new conscience' then become defiled and seared? Well, Yes. 1Timothy 4:1,2 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; :2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Then what? would we need to be born-again again? Yes, What do you think some shall depart from the faith, means?
Hi Logic,Good to see you up and about today. :-) I am glad you have joined SI, in case you hadn't picked up on that, since my First post to you, on the other thread.Anyhow, I don't want to stir up a hornet's nest here, on the topic of "reprobates", but, there is a difference between just "unsaved", or just "backslidden" and then "reprobate".Three different spiritual states.The first two 'can' repent. The differentiation with 'being given over', and by GOD no less, in which being 'reprobate' is ... makes repentence impossible. :cry: There are reprobates in the Church ... and that is the scariest scenario of them all, because they usually spout off a lot of Scripture or other spiritual manifestations.Now 'that' is the "mystery of iniquity".Those 'religious' spirits, that claim to be "doing God a Service" (that wind up killing us, b/o it), are Reprobates, and the 'mystery of iniquity' (the spirit of antiChrist), are a type, that in very most cases, are 'religious' in nature.That is why it is called "Mystery".It's not your average 'sinner'. These are the creepy things, that will and are manifesting increasingly, as we enter the Last days.They are 'crafty', in so much that, "If it were possible, even the Elect will be deceived."If they were not 'religious' in nature, the Elect or 'Christians', could see the deceit or counterfeit spirits in them, all the more easily.But because they are Reprobate, and by 'God's' giving them over, then they are all the more plugged into Satan then you're average unregenerated, or unsaved person ... because, you're average sinner, still has a chance to be saved/repent.When God gives one over to reprobation, they are "cut off - totally rejected", because the Lord knows (only He does), that these people never will, nor want to repent. They had rather serve the creature (one being Satan), than The Creator.I didn't want to bring this up, because a lot of young in Christ folks, get this fear that they are 'reprobate', just because their walk is not Strong yet.Only God, and occasionally the gift of discerning of spirits, or other revelation from God, can and will, show the Elect when they are dealing with a reprobate.A reprobate loses all fear of Hell. And the Mystery of Iniquity, is where they feel they can defeat Hell. Some get to where they even "want" to go there. (Just as Satan)It's a 'deep' delusion. Or "strong delusion".One that God has "given them over to".Not the sin or the state of your average sinner.Welcome to SI Logic, and pray it is mutually beneficial for you too.God be with us...In HIS Love.Annie
There are two verses which interest me here...1Cor. 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 1Cor. 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; They're interesting because, without trying to set it all in concrete, Paul seems to link 'knowledge' with 'conscience'. Conscience might almost be described as 'the knowledge within every man'. He makes it personal in the first reference my speaking of 'in every man' but apparently 'knowledge/conscience' is not the same in 'every man'.The word for 'conscience' is 'suneidEsis' which is made up of sun - as our syn-thesis, syn-chronise meaning 'together' and is the prefix we get in a little flurry of words in Ephesians; co-crucified, co-raised, co-seated. eidO is one of Greek's words for 'know' and really means 'to see' in the sense of perceiving something. I don't want to create a definition of 'conscience' from this but I would suggest that the 'conscience' is a faculty of the mind which enables comparison or 'seeing things together'. It enables us to put one action alongside another action and 'to see' that they are of unequal length, morally. The highest 'morality' that we have known becomes the measure and we compare our action (or intended action) with that 'highest standard'. Even here we 'fall short' of what we 'see' to be the 'higher' standard. However the Jewish people had this 'inward measure of the highest morality' strengthened and increased by revelation. God revealed His truth to them, and their consciences now became 'honour bound' to compare any action or intended action against the 'highest that they knew'. In this the Romans references to 'conscience' are very helpful. Romans 2 does not compare those without conscience to those with conscience, but those without the revelation of the Law to those with that revelation. Rom. 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, Rom. 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; The Jew had no excuse for an 'untaught' conscience; he had received revelation. That 'revelation' immediately added to the 'highest' that he knew and became his standard. Failure to choose the 'highest' known to his conscience was 'transgression'.The Gentile, however, did not have the Sinai Law in its form of words, but he did have the 'work' of the Law written in his heart and consequently was 'a law unto' himself. Rom. 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom. 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) As with the Jew the 'organ' of comparison/measurement was the conscience. However the 'knowledge' in the Gentile was not the same as the 'knowledge' in the Jew. We see an illustration of this in the Acts. To the Jew, with his specific Sinai revelation, idolatry was 'transgression', but to the Gentile God calls it 'ignorance' Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men From the moment of this revelation the Gentiles continuation in idolatry would not be 'ignorance' but 'transgression'. There consciences were now 'educated'; there was 'in them that knowledge'.Sometimes a conscience can have received a bad 'education' so that he 'knows' duff information. Even if the information is inaccurate it will inform his conscience if he believes it, and he will be conscience-smitten if he goes against it. To develop a practice of going against the counsel of the conscience will 'confuse' this 'organ of comparision' and leave it feeling defiled even if the counsel was inaccurate. eg I am driving at 70 mph in an area I 'know' to have a limit of 40 mph. This will defile and dull my conscience, even if I later discover that the speed limit on this stretch of road was actually 70 mph all along. James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. This 'knowing' is our word 'eideO', perceiving. To go against what my conscience 'perceives' is sin. (wow!)I will pause to give folks an opportunity to reply...
Anyhow, I don't want to stir up a hornet's nest here, on the topic of "reprobates",Might be a good new thread.When God gives one over to reprobation, they are "cut off - totally rejected", because the Lord knows (only He does), that these people never will, nor want to repent. Sound like you are saying that "reprobates" are the ones who committed the unpardenable sin.where do you conect them two in Scripture and how do you come to this conclusion?Go ahead and start a new thread if you want, since this is off the subject.
Hi Logic - I got off the computer, to go do housework, but then felt I needed to come back on, because something got on my heart, that I wanted to post as a thread ... but came to see your post first.If you don't mind, I'd rather not start a thread on this topic, because from my experience, it can scare the heck out of young folks, as I said before. I've seen it happen enough to be careful with this discussion.But just to give the few places this word is used and how ... And then below, give 'assurance' to any here about "deception" and 'how to handle it' and 'not to fear'.I love His Words better than mine, so please accuse the amount of His Word on here.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Reprobate is only used 4 times in the Bible. Once in the O.T. and 3 in the New.Greek #96 adokimosFrom G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.Hebrew 3988 maw-as'A primitive root; to spurn; also (intransitively) to disappear: - abhor, cast away (off), contemn, despise, disdain, (become) loathe (-some), melt away, refuse, reject, reprobate, X utterly, vile person. Used in Jer. 6:26-30The 3 times used in the N.T. Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind ................ Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. If you have an e-sword or something, do a study on 'reprobate' and see where it says, as in "Rom.10:1" etc. "That Paul would have Not Prayed for Israel, if they were "reprobate". (Quote from just one Commentator-Word Study).~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Those Deceitful ....Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. Angels of light2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their worksDamnable Heresies2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.We should examine ourselves1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. 1Co 11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. 1Co 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come Also...2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobateLast days - departing from the faith.1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truthCommand them not to teach false doctrine.1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. 1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. Unable to endure sound doctrine.2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. Antichrist with all deceivableness2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. The unlearned and unstable.2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. 2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen. Many false christs.Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man beMany shall say LORD, LORD on that Day.Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock. Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.Because straight is the gate..... Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.Many shall come in my name., Take heed that no man deceive you. Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Wolves in sheeps clothingMat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Because iniquity shall abound....Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Satan blinds.2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. There will be a great falling away,plus a strong delusion.2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"Strong" here means "effectual". When The Lord does something "effectual", (so in turn they accept the antiChrist), then that is permenant.And the reason "why" He gives them over to this, is because they did not Agape Love (Unconditional, GOD'S type Love) The Truth.My sheep will not be deceived.Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. Joh 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. Joh 10:12 But he that is a hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep. Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.Those that are His, will not be deceived.Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: This is the condemnation.Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. A condition for beliefJoh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (Joh 15:12)Holy Spirit will lead into all truth.Joh 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. Joh 16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. Joh 16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. Joh 16:5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? Joh 16:6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you. Joh 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.Our weapons of warfare.2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;) 2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ LOVE God - His Truth - Others ... (Jam 2:8-9)If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God. (Eph 3:19)Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Rom 13:10)1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (1Jo 4:17)"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." (2Ti 1:7)
philologos, sorry i spoke too quickly. i am sorry and i totally acklowledge that i was wrong to speak out like that. i lent too much on my own understanding and stepped out of line.and grannyannie... wow...
Hi LogicRonB wrote:Do you believe that we are given a new heart in regeneration? Does that mean we have been given a 'new conscience'?Logic wrote:
I asked my question to probe into the idea of whether or not our conscience is completely renewed in regeneration, or does the process start in regeneration? I note what you say above but I am not talking about 'desires' but conscience. I came across an interesting comment on the conscience today from the writings of F B Meyer; the conscience... is a soul conscious of itself, and passing judgement upon its own states and actions. It is the judgement seat of Christ set up in our nature. It is the Great White Throne in miniatureJottings and Hints: F B Meyer If Meyer is right, and I am not saying that I think he is, the conscience almost seems to be a place rather than a thing. Or an event rather than a thing. Does our conscience begin again brand new at the point of our regeneration or does is undergo a fundamental overhaul?RonB wroteThen what? would we need to be born-again again?Logic wroteI might think so. Remember that when we were not Christian, our desires were our own and were selfish and worldy with the world's values. When I became saved, my desires turned from the world's and my own desires to God’s.
I didn't really expect you to answer like this. I am probing again and really asking the question 'how many times would we expect regeneration to have to take place if our conscience became 'unreliable' again. I think 'departing from the faith' is referring to apostacy rather than to a failure in the conscience.Here's another interesting feature about the conscience...2Cor. 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. This is an important passage because it shows that when Paul preached he was thinking about the conscience. He knew that somehow a person's conscience had to be involved in the matter of conversion. It would never force another man's conscience but would only progress as the man's conscience could keep pace with what he was hearing. This truth now becomes very important for our evangelism.I find it intriguing that Paul respected another man's conscience and never rode rough-shod over it. He did not try to force his own opinion on another; neither did he use any 'tricks' to get his message across. This expression of Paul regarding preaching has long arrested my thoughts; 'the manifestation of the truth' which somehow impacted upon a man's conscience.Yes, What do you think some shall depart from the faith, means?
philologos, sorry i spoke too quickly. i am sorry and i totally acklowledge that i was wrong to speak out like that. i lent too much on my own understanding and stepped out of line.That's OK. We are all learning here.
Did God give us our conscience, or did it come from the knowledge of good & evil? What is the 'work of the law' mentioned in Rom 2:15? Was God talking about all people when He said He would write His law upon our hearts or is that once you are born-again?If anyone has an answer to this question it would be greatly appreciated. I am just after a thorough, biblical understanding of this before I respond to his email. It was a good question and one I have never had asked before.On further thought this is 'an interesting question' and like yourself I have never heard it asked in quite this way. Your own question "Did God give us our conscience, or did it come from the knowledge of good & evil?" is also a good one. I wonder if we can get an answer by thinking about Adam in his pre-fall state of innocence. Did Adam have no 'conscience' before he ate the fruit of that forbidden tree? If my own understanding of conscience is anywhere near right, I would say he did have a conscience prior to the first sin. Conscience does not only seem to pass sentence on acts already performed, but seems to compare prospective actions so that we (and Adam) are able to 'judge' future acts/thoughts and approve or disapprove them. What do you think to that? Isn't acting with a 'good conscience' just this? The action we take is taken with the permission of the conscience; yes?If all that is true then conscience predates Adam's taking of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
That's OK. We are all learning here.Ahh, isn't this refreshing. I fully and totally agree whole-heartedly.Rom 8:28 if FOR 29 !Happy Day y'all.
Isn't acting with a 'good conscience' just this? The action we take is taken with the permission of the conscience; yes?I think you may be moving to Bubba's thinking. :-D I have'nt read the whole thread, but is conscience a free moral agent? Thinking about Adam, if he did not have the Holy Spirit in him would that have been Gods warning system for him?Now us in the New Covenant, we both have the Holy Spirit and a conscience which bears witness together?
I think you may be moving to Bubba's thinking.Mebbe, but I really don't see that. Even so, everybody's though has to warrant some consideration.Conscience - stealing conscience. First off, conscience isn't a limited concept. Watch a dog. If a well-trained dog is left unattended in a house for a day and night, it is going to have to do something it knows it is not supposed to do (i.e. soiling a floor). Now, most of the time the animal also doesn't want to participate in this act - either from a desire of cleanliness or something else. And when the owner returns home, the canine will also show remarkable remorse even though it was through no fault of its own that the animal perpetrated a "forbidden" act. If we are describing this as conscience, then there is no way that one bite of a friggin' fruit ever gave it to the human race, and it is also not entirely spiritual. If conscience consists of more - well, this conversation really isn't spiking that much.Second off, I'm going to launch into a topic that I haven't really researched all that well (not denoting inattention to personal study) - but seems an inherent fallacy in many places. This would be the fall of man. Now, to have most people describe it, man gained something and so lost his place as "perfect" in the sight of God. It also permanently ruined him. Note that this knowledge of good and evil doesn't necessarily represent much.In examination - when Adam ate of the fruit, the two were capable of perceiving themselves as naked. Well, they both knew they were naked beforehand. Man wasn't stupid, he knew he wasn't wearing clothes. He was probably also perfectly aware that there were certain acts and actions possible in a state of nakedness that weren't possible while not naked. So these two intimate people sewed aprons from fig leaves. Also please note that as far as I am aware, the bible never says childbirth was not possible before mans' fall - just that woman would be cursed with pain.For a second point, as a general consensus, we accept conscience as a check against sin (as it were.) Well, if this really is the case, how would it have been instilled upon eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil? Adam and Eve were obviously capable of sinning, because they did so. If knowledge gave them conscience, then disobeying this command of God was not a sin because there was no real record of good or bad in their mind. By inference I gather that they already knew what they were doing was something they shouldn't be. After eating of the fruit, they sewed aprons. But when Adam and Eve hid from God, it was because they had disobeyed his command. The assumption that the knowledge that disobeying his command was bad came from eating the fruit suggests that God perpetrated the act of causing man to sin and thusly condemning His own creation. This doesn't seem just, fair, or merciful as our God must be.This "wisdom" or "knowledge" as the book of Genesis describes the concept in English doesn't seem to fit well in my thinking. It did not seem to make Adam or Eve wiser at all. It didn't seem to teach them anything, in fact. It made at the very least Adam "aware" that he was naked (at which point - if this be the case - he would have informed his wife - that particular discussion would have been the mother load of all "birds and bees" talks.) But it also did not seem to give them a complete understanding of right and wrong as we would assume. They had to know they were sinning in order to actually do so - else why would the crafty serpent be necessary to lure Eve into eating?Yeah, I know this whole post is only about three points - but I think I attempted to approach it from at least two different angles. ...I'm pretty sure its relevant.
I think you may be moving to Bubba's thinking. Gee, you know how to hurt a guy! (Just joking Jake, if you should read this ;-) )Now us in the New Covenant, we both have the Holy Spirit and a conscience which bears witness together? This will show I am a non-repentent non-bubba-ite in that I would want to add the scriptures to this couplet. Martin Luther was famously asked to compromise his position and said 'my conscience is subject to the word of God'. I think the whole question of how the conscience is 'informed' is an important aspect of this. I put some thoughts together here along the lines of the link between 'knowledge' and 'conscience' but I think they were quickly overtaken by other facets of the discussion.
If knowledge gave them conscience, then disobeying this command of God was not a sin because there was no real record of good or bad in their mind. Did you read the earlier posts which looked at scripture for information about conscience, attempted to define it, discussed 'education' of conscience and answered the original questions?
Watch a dog.There's a lot in your post which is good to think over. As regards this quote however I think we are 'anthropomorphising' to attribute conscience to a dog. (Although Chesterton jokingly once said that both dogs and cats had a conscience, but whereas the cat had a good conscience, the dog always had a bad one.) A dog is essentially a pack animal and will usually be conscious of the alpha male in its new pack (your family). It will usually submit to the alpha-males demands because that ensures its safety within the pack. This however, is not virtue but instinct. For the same reason your dog cannot 'steal' your sandwich although it may well take it when your eye is turned away.I think it may be worth commenting that some things that we attribute to conscience may actually just be social conditioning. I mentioned on an earlier thread that what we call conscience may not always be conscience. Our dog has acquired the right to the first and last half inch of every banana consumed in this house! When I am away I feel really mean when I eat a whole banana; this is social conditioning, not conscience.I would like to think some more about 'the knowledge of good and evil' and it impact upon Adam and Eve.
Thanks so much for discussing this issue, you have all given me a lot of food for thought. I had to reply to him though as to not leave this lost person hanging on the end of an email...This is what I replied with:---BEGIN QUOTE---Adam & Eve had no knowledge of evil - but they had one law - which was to not eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. By eating from that tree they transgressed the verbal law given to them (which meant they were without excuse of knowing what sin was) and they knew the consequence of that would be death (spirituality and physically). The question really is whether or not transgressing the verbal law of God and sinning invoked or awakened the conscience which was already in His creation or whether eating from that tree 'gave' them that conscience. Either way, you are a descendant of Adam and were born with the seed of sin in you and also a conscience.I would think that the ability to not so much 'know' what is good and what is evil, but to have something that would 'bare witness' to what is good and evil, would be a good thing, and a gift from God, but something that would not be needed unless humanity enslaved themselves to sin by transgressing God's only commandment."Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above..." - Jam 1:17The Law of Moses (10 Commandments) is not your conscience, but is used to bring the knowledge of sin, and the conscience which is in everyone 'bares witness' to that.As I explained in the previous email you do have a conscience, which ultimately came from God. When you have sinned, you have done it 'with knowledge' that it was wrong. God must serve justice for law breakers. To the extent of his Majesty, Glory, Holiness, Righteousness, Goodness is also the extent of His Justice, punishing all sin, from murderers down to liars."But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." - Rev 21:8God will punish sin, the question is whether we will except the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ as the payment for our sins, by repentance and trust in Him, or whether we will go into eternity and have the pay the fine ourselves...eternity in hell. ---END QUOTE---Just so you know, he emailed back and wants to know how to begin 'worshipping God'. Never had anyone put it that way before but I will be asking for a contact number to have a phone chat or whether it is possible to meet with him as he is a local.Together In The Harvest,Nath.
Did you read the earlier posts which looked at scripture for information about conscience, attempted to define it, discussed 'education' of conscience and answered the original questions? Edited:To answer quite simply - yes. I don't think the gist of the comment was overly well caught here - this is not something I hold to be true and it was meant to shed light on what is being said (and almost somewhat tongue-in-cheek). Some times (and I'm often guilty of this,) though the information be right there, the course of our calculations don't change.And to philologos: interesting point, although conceptually as developed here, "social conditioning" and interference from my "conscience" aren't totally separate. Personally, where I think the conscience begins to show its most merrit is where it involves others - and more precisely to adequately judge seriously complex actions before their occurance (and thusly to somewhat judge complex and unknown results.) In essence, its still a bit more complex than we wish to give it credit as I'm reading things now.Edit: Mr_Nath - I think with the abundance of information, unfamiliar ideas and such, you have done a remarkable job in pulling together your reply. :-)
It seems from Hebrews 10:22 that before we were regenerated we had an "evil" conscience:Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.How though (and why) are our hearts "sprinkled" if we have new ones?Regarding Adam and Eve, what did it mean that they had no knowledge of "good and evil"?Could it mean that they knew what was good (i.e. God and His creation), but they didn't know what what evil?Therefore could it read as "knowledge of good and evil"I think they did have consciences that informed them that it would be "wrong" to go against God, but they (in particular Adam) decided to "ignore" their consciences.I am sense any making? :-?
In essence, its still a bit more complex than we wish to give it credit as I'm reading things now.Yes, it is 'complex' and that was what I wanted to draw our attention to, but its operation is wonderfully 'simple'. We 'know' when it is at work even if we can't quite nail down how it is doing what it is doing.There is a classic book on the conscience written by O Hallesby. Its chapters include1. What is conscience?2. How conscience functions3. The judgment of conscience4. The conscience of fallen man5. Conscience and the word of God6. The Awakening of conscience7. Conscience and our old nature8. Conscience and grace9. Conscience and faith10. Conscience and the new man11. The degeneration and death of conscience12. The growth of conscience.I read it years ago but will try to give it a quick scan in the next few days.
I have just read the first two paragraphs of Hallesby on Conscience... Conscience is the simplest and clearest expression of the exalted character and dignity of human life. Here we touch upon something which makes man a man and exalts him above the animals; we come in contact with that element which links him to the eternal.This makes it imperative for us to 'put off our shoes from our feet', so to speak, and tread carefully upon what is holy and mysterious ground, It also suggests to us that we shall come upon factors outside the scope of human reason alone, which will raise problems that are difficult to think through and even more difficult to express....sounds as if we are on the right track?edit: I am thoroughly enjoying O Hallesby on Conscience I would heartily recommend this book.
Quote: "Here we touch upon something which makes man a man and exalts him above the animals."I wouldn't hang too much on this as there is plenty of evidence that at least some animals -- primates, dolphins, even birds -- have a conscience, can reason, solve problems and have some sense of right and wrong. (Anyone ever have a dog that expressed remorse for something it did? I have.)Bub
This is a great topic. Very interesting to me.I have heard that Adam and Eve got their conscience from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (one translation [i cant remember which] even says tree of conscience)I guess the main question is 'did adam and eve know what was right and wrong before the fall?' 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. If Adam was not decieved did he know is was wrong?
I wouldn't hang too much on this as there is plenty of evidence that at least some animals -- primates, dolphins, even birds -- have a conscience, can reason, solve problems and have some sense of right and wrong. (Anyone ever have a dog that expressed remorse for something it did? I have.) It all depends on what you mean by conscience, and from the working definitions we have so far no animal has anything like it. Your dog knew it had done something which would incur your displeasure; that is not conscience but training.
I agree. Once when I was witnessing to a person, he told me I was no better than his dog. Instead of lifting my leg and marking my territory on him, which would prove I wasn't, I told him I had a conscience and his dog didnt. I still belive that. The person I was witnessing to belived strongly in reincarnation. I think when you begin to say that a dog has a conscience like a human you aren't far from saying a human is just alittle higher up than a dog. I belive God made humans much higher than dogs.
Quote: "I think when you begin to say that a dog has a conscience like a human you aren't far from saying a human is just alittle higher up than a dog. I belive God made humans much higher than dogs." I think that all of life comes from the same wellspring of God. I don't believe dogs or other animals have a conscience in the same degree as humans, but that it derives from the same underlying source of Life. Humans are distinct from animals because of their higher degree of conscience, but it all flows from the same source. The same loving God created all forms of life. Why should we humans be separately or specially created? (and please do not respond by saying 'because Genesis says so.')Bubbaguy
Why should we humans be separately or specially created? (and please do not respond by saying 'because Genesis says so.')Ok I won't say because Genesis says so, but I will say that in Genesis is says that we are created after God's own image. I havent read where animals were created after God's own image. Edit: then again this means nothing if you don't belive the Biblical account of creation. You would just have to go with your own thought or speculation to create your own thought of what happened "in the begining"
I have always interpreted this - that we are created in God's image - as meaning that, like God, we have special powers (abilities) to create (enable) or destroy life. Animals do not have the faculties (opposable thumbs etc.) to fashion sophisticated tools, although some, dolphins for example, have highly complex commmunication systems (language, if you will) and are reputedly nearly as intellegent as humans. You are correct that I don't interpret Genesis literally. I believe it is a representational story that presents many truths about God and man's relationship to Him, but which does not present a scientifically accurate story on the development and progression of life over the ages (nor was it intended to.)Bub
You are correct that I don't interpret Genesis literally.Bubba, here's a specific thought from Paul.Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth,Here's a general question, since dogs have been mentioned.Would the difference between training and conscience be that 'training' should produce a reflex response, whereas 'conscience' offers a standard which can be over-ridden, a facutly which is well beyond the reach of a dog?
Humans are distinct from animals because of their higher degree of conscience, but it all flows from the same source. The same loving God created all forms of life. Why should we humans be separately or specially created? (and please do not respond by saying 'because Genesis says so.')Humans are different to other sentient creatures in that they were expressly created in the image and likeness of God. This is plainly seen in that the creation of the human race is a specific creation after God had pronounced his approval for the animals (Gen 1:25ff) No other creature was ever 'built' to this specification to bear the image and likeness of God. To make this so man had to be a moral agent, hence conscience.BTW does your particular view of reincarnation include inter-species migrations in the oriental sense, or is it just that the same person keeps coming back until they get it right?
I have to say that I think we're a little to black and white on the issue of animals. Do animals have a conscience? The simple answer is no, because a conscience is not limited to simple questions. It is also most definitely not limited to past events.Animals do express remorse - which is something I hinted at earlier. Conscience, at a weak glance, can be summed up with emotion after the fact. Animals have emotions. Ever slight a cat? Ever tease a dog? Yes, animals have emotion - but that is not a signifying factor of conscience. Our conscience doesn't always seem to be separate of our emotions, but it is most definitely not the same thing.
Really it is all about how you define conscience. Do you define as the knowledge of good and evil, or do you define really what I take it to be laid out in the word to be, and that is that conscience is a judge of right and wrong. If conscience is the knowledge of good and evil then you could say that we stole it, because there was not a full knowledge of sin as long as Adam and Eve were in the presence of God before sin. But if conscience is the ability to judge what is right and wrong, then Adam and Eve had a conscience because they knew that eating from the tree was wrong.Romans 2:15 states in KJV: "Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;"If you look at the verse and break it down. The law that was written in their hearts outlines what is right and wrong, and the conscience is the judge and witness to what is right and wrong when confronted. The conscience does not need a full knowledge of good and evil, the purpose of the law is to outline that. The purpose of the conscience is judge something on being good or evil.To say that we stole conscience I think is really an interesting point but out of line. We are born with a conscience and a knowledge of what is right and wrong. Adam and Eve both knew what they did was wrong, and this is evident in Gen. 3:8. They hid from the presence of God because they knew they had sinned. When looking at conscience you really have to ask yourself what you are using as a standard of right and wrong. If you are looking at it in the literal sense of what is right and wrong according to God, then they already knew it was wrong to eat of the tree before they did, showing the evidence of conscience. But if you look at the standard of right and wrong according to world's principles. Then you can say that it is through reason, logic, and experience that people build upon or change their conscience. The second is not our true "conscience" though because we come to a realization of our sins before we become born again. Therefore saying that Rom 2:15 is only concerning those that are born again, really doesnt fit. I believe that people drown out their conscience and almost not hear it, but this is by the choice of free will, not because they were not born with a conscience.Adam and Eve reasoned through logic that it would be ok to eat from the fruit of the tree. Even though the law upon their hearts and God had stated it was wrong. If they had not realized that it was wrong they would not have hid, and tried to place the blame onto others.I understand where the question comes from. Because it was not until Adam and Eve ate from the tree that there was sin in the world. They were innocent, there was no knowlegde of sin. Really a more interesting argument is that the conscience is not necessary while in the presence of God because sin can not exist in the presence of God.
Hi Johnny,Really a more interesting argument is that the conscience is not necessary while in the presence of God because sin can not exist in the presence of God.At least not for long. ;-) God Bless,-Robert
saw this Oswald Chambers comment and thought about this thread..."A conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men." Acts 24:16God's commands are given to the life of His Son in us, consequently to the human nature in which His Son has been formed, His commands are difficult, but immediately we obey they become divinely easy.Conscience is that faculty in me which attaches itself to the highest that I know, and tells me what the highest I know demands that I do. It is the eye of the soul which looks out either towards God or towards what it regards as the highest, and therefore conscience records differently in different people. If I am in the habit of steadily facing myself with God, my conscience will always introduce God's perfect law and indicate what I should do. The point is, will I obey? I have to make an effort to keep my conscience so sensitive that I walk without offence. I should be living in such perfect sympathy with God's Son, that in every circumstance the spirit of my mind is renewed, and I "make out" at once "what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."God always educates us down to the scruple. Is my ear so keen to hear the tiniest whisper of the Spirit that I know what I should do? "Grieve not the Holy Spirit." He does not come with a voice like thunder; His voice is so gentle that it is easy to ignore it. The one thing that keeps the conscience sensitive to Him is the continual habit of being open to God on the inside. When there is any debate, quit. "Why shouldn't I do this?" You are on the wrong track. There is no debate possible when conscience speaks. At your peril, you allow one thing to obscure your inner communion with God. Drop it, whatever it is, and see that you keep your inner vision clear.My Utmost for His Highest: May 13th