Commentary (a prosperity gospel) Barnes notes , Bible hub

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Beloved, I wish above all things - Margin, "pray." The word used here commonly means in the New Testament to pray; but it is also employed to express a strong and earnest desire for anything, Acts 27:29; Romans 9:3; 2 Corinthians 13:9. This is probably all that is implied here. The phrase rendered "above all things" - περὶ πάντων peri pantōn - would be more correctly rendered here "concerning, or in respect to all things;" and the idea is, that John wished earnestly that "in all respects" he might have the same kind of prosperity which his soul had. The common translation "above all things" would seem to mean that John valued health and outward prosperity more than he did anything else; that he wished that more than his usefulness or salvation. This cannot be the meaning, and is not demanded by the proper interpretation of the original. See this shown by Lucke, in loc. The sense is, "In every respect, I wish that it may go as well with you as it does with your soul; that in your worldly prosperity, your comfort, and your bodily health, you may be as prosperous as you are in your religion." This is the reverse of the wish which we are commonly constrained to express for our friends; for such is usually the comparative want of prosperity and advancement in their spiritual interests, that it is an expression of benevolence to desire that they might prosper in that respect as much as they do in others.
That thou mayest prosper - εὐοδοῦσθαι euodousthai. This word occurs in the New Testament only in the following places: Romans 1:10, rendered "have a prosperous journey;" 1 Corinthians 16:2, rendered "hath prospered;" and in the passage before us. It means, properly, "to lead in a good way; to prosper one's journey;" and then to make prosperous; to give success to; to be prospered. It would apply here to any plan or purpose entertained. It would include success in business, happiness in domestic relations, or prosperity in any of the engagements and transactions in which a Christian might lawfully engage. It shows that it is right to wish that our friends may have success in the works of their hands and their plans of life.

And be in health - To enjoy bodily health. It is not necessary to to suppose, in order to a correct interpretation of this, that Gaius was at that time suffering from bodily indisposition, though perhaps it is most natural to suppose that, as John makes the wish for his health so prominent. But it is common, in all circumstances, to wish for the health and prosperity of our friends; and it is as proper as it is common, if we do not give that a degree of prominence above the welfare of the soul.

Even as thy soul prospereth - John had learned, it would seem, from the "brethren" who had come to him, 3 John 1:3, that Gaius was living as became a Christian; that he was advancing in the knowledge of the truth, and was exemplary in the duties of the Christian life; and he prays that in all other respects he might be prospered as much as he was in that. It is not very common that a man is more prospered in his spiritual interests than he is in his other interests, or that we can, in our wishes for the welfare of our friends, make the prosperity of the soul, and the practice and enjoyment of religion, the standard of our wishes in regard to other things. It argues a high state of piety when we can, as the expression of our highest desire for the welfare of our friends, express the hope that they may be in all respects as much prospered as they are in their spiritual concerns.

Once again, I'll take the bait, knowing that this thread will not go well for me considering the pervasiveness of this teaching again. There truly is nothing new under the sun, and it's just like the world to recycle decades old deception and peddle it as new revelation.

This verse was used by most, if not all, prosperity preachers in the early days of the spread of this heresy. I don't use the word heresy often, because I think most of the time it is misused and misunderstood. Heresy is teaching that is not only deceptive, but at its core divisive and sectarian, or of a "party spirit". It's a teaching that intrinsically, and as its goal and motive, separated the church into groups. This teaching is heresy in the purest form, as it is purposes to separate the church into groups of believers based on their economic success, and bodily health.

To take this verse as anything other than a greeting from John, and his prayer that they walk and live a successful life in Christ, being taught in truth and continuing their journey in that truth until the end of their race, is reaching.

The usage of this verse in the prosperity movement always says this - "you see, if your soul prospers than you will be healthy and financially prosperous". They would have us believe that we will be healthy and wealthy to the same degree as we are spiritual. The more spiritual and holy someone therefore is, the more they will be physically and financially healthy. The Copelands, Hinns, and Bakers of this world call it "divine health".

This is a perversion of not only this verse, but the entirety of the new testament. It is impossible to reconcile this teaching with texts such as:

"Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated”” of whom the world was not worthy””wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.” (Hebrews 11:36-40)

The provision of God in Christ for us conquers sin and dead works, and allows us access to the Father. Our great high priest, Jesus Himself, by the power of and endless life, stands as intercessor and advocate that we may have all spiritual blessings in Him, and inherit the kingdom of God and His righteousness now, and in the world that is soon to come.

""Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. "The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.” (Matthew 6:19-24)

This teaching is self explanatory and need absolutely no comment - the prosperity movement would have us believe if we are strong in faith and spiritual, we are somehow exempt from this teaching and immune to the consequences of wealth and covetousness. We can somehow disobey Jesus and have an abundance of wordly gold and treasures, yet not grown fat and weary and forsake God in our own misguided self sufficiency. And pride comes before destruction.

""Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. "Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.” (Matthew 6:25-34)

Godliness with contentment is great gain - and the contentment is being content to rely on the Father to supply our daily bread. The gain is the ever present trial and testing of our faith to see the Almighty sovereign provision of God for our daily needs. Storehouses and savings are subject to the world and it's thieves, they will lead you to place your concerns, and set your minds on the things of this world. You CANNOT serve to masters, no matter what the property movement would have you think. We are never immune to the covetousness this message breeds, and the only fail safe in this world is the faithfulness of the Father to provide for His children just as He does the sparrow and the lily.

The most neglected command of Jesus is to consider the birds and flowers. It's just like our Lord to give us commands that force us to remove ourselves from ourselves and do the foolish things in this greedy and money driven world. The world says store up form yourself, Jesus says spend some time bird watching. The world says be anxious about your health and wealth and make that the gauge of your success; Jesus commands us to stop and smell the flowers and see the faithfulness of God in it.

When any man tells you that God will make you prosperous and healthy based on your faithfulness to Him... challenge that man to find the chapter and verse - it's not in the book.

The most heinous part of this teaching is that it denies the Lord that bought us - and makes His existence serve our purposes rather than our existence serve His. It makes God our means, rather than our glorious end.

God will provide your daily needs because He is a faithful and merciful Father - daily bread. Sufficient for the day is the evils of that day. Jesus commands a present walk with Him, depending on Him every second of every day to supply the necessities of life. He is faithful to do so. But He will never fill a storehouse for you, and we should thank Him for that mercy.

If the Father were to fill our storehouses and completely disregard His sons teaching (which are His words) - He would be tempting us to self sufficiency, covetousness, and evil; God tempts no one with evil under any circumstances.

I could go on, and on, and on, and on. I hardly think it's necessary as my God is the God of the present and perfect provision - provision that is perfect in every way and not subject to, or resembling at all the world. He will receive all glory as He supplies my needs in a daily way, as He knows my frailty and He mercifully will never allow me to trust in riches that perish.

My Father is the God that provides all my needs according to His riches in Glory.

The god of the prosperity message is the one that sets you on a mountaintop and promises you the riches of the world if you will bow down and serve him.

I don't care what man preaches it, I will always come out of any wood work I find myself in to defend the honor of my Lord Jesus - and He is much more faithful and glorious than the god of this heinous and villainous prosperity gospel.

I don't believe that Albert Barnes was a proponent of the modern prosperity heresy. He makes a good point that it is right to pray for a brothers success in life and that the standard of that success should be the spiritual prosperity of one's life.

Of course it is true that false teachers have wrested the verse to promote heresy, and as Carter Conlon said, "run for your life" when it comes to this prosperity gospel. but that doesn't mean we should rip the verse from our Bibles. Rightly understood it is an encouragement for our desires for brethren in prayer.

In Christ,

Barnes may not be, but Gary is. Look around this forum at his counsel, and than go groan and cry concerning the souls that may take it to heart as they think Jesus doesn't love them because they don't have this worlds definition of wealth.

It's a grief to me that Gary is taken up with this deception, and that it's still actually taken seriously in any circle anywhere. It has been so thoroughly refuted and rebuked it's only the deepest of blindness that keeps it afloat and in any preachers mouth.

It's heartbreaking.

It's a grief to me that Gary is taken up with this deception, and that it's still actually taken seriously in any circle anywhere. It has been so thoroughly refuted and rebuked it's only the deepest of blindness that keeps it afloat and in any preachers mouth.

Yes, it is a wonder that it's taken seriously. I appreciate your zeal and concern. We must be aware that humanism takes on many forms when couched in Christianity but in the end, as Paris Reidhead said, its using the provision of God simply to ease the misery of the human condition. God will not be used as a convenience. We must be careful to convey the gospel message of Jesus Christ because it is true, and not for some other reason.

In Christ,

Amen Ron.

And please do not take me the wrong way, I believe in the provision of God for our daily needs. By God's mercy I live by this provision and it is the most precious life, albeit trying in every moment. Nothing shows us our utter insufficiency and helplessness for even the most basic things in life more profoundly than realizing it is the Lord Jesus that holds up our every breath and without His mercy and provision, our very lives and livelihood will crumble.

This is a revelation of utmost importance in these last days as very soon, if we are not cast on God's mercy, than we will find our dependance on worldly means will never be enough, no matter how many figures our salary contains (this is already the case in much of the world, and the cares of this world are choking the Word and breeding deception upon deception).

I find reading and studying the lives of God's servants such as George Mueller, Rees Howells, CT Studd, Hudson Taylor, Norman Grubb, David Wilkerson (the early days of the teen evangelism mission), Art Katz, and others - most (Wilkerson being the exception) of these men made it a point to never even ask for money, fundraise, or make their needs known in any way. The sole purpose being the proving of God's promises and faithfulness apart from men.

Interestingly they lived in comparative poverty, knowing the supplying of daily bread and nothing more - only what they needed, often to the penny. Nothing compares to having a present financial need and seeing the provision of God to the very dollar of the need, exactly as it's needed - even with the bank account being at zero once the need is taken care of.

We serve a living God, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever - and will answer the prayer for daily bread.

It's just a commentary Brothers and it shows that even those then are not in any form of charismatic church still believe in a type of prosperity.

I think the ironic part about this is many people that are against any form of prosperity for a Christian are actually very prosperous themselves living in America or other countries and the probably considered in the 20% of most prosperous people in the world.

And hypocritically they promote a form of poverty gospel that is really one of the errors of the early church and the Catholic church.

Why not take a vow of poverty and sell everything you have and give it to the poor?

Just for the record I don't subscribe to an unbalanced extreme prosperity gospel at all never have.

But what I see in the scriptures is definitely not a poverty gospel but I see Jesus even saying that if you give it will be given back press down and overflowing.

And I do see the apostle Paul expecting God to give to those who do give so that you will have plenty for your family and plenty to be able to help others and even extended family.

And within his letters he commanded the rich not to give away their riches to become poor but to be ready to give and not to trust in uncertain riches which seems a very contrasting message to some of the things that Jesus said but it's clear that the apostle Paul understood the teachings of Christ better than many or many Christians in the past.

And it's clear that the apostle John was a great teacher on prayer and he taught for us to believe that we receive what it is we ask for in prayer and to pray according to God's will and we know that he hears us and so we get the petitions that we ask for, what we see is a petition and a prayer of the apostle John for the prosperity of somebody and we can be sure that John wouldn't have been praying a petition against God's will.

I Actually believe the commentary from Barnes is a very balanced realistic biblical version of prosperity and even Charles spurgeon himself promoted the works of barns he was a Presbyterian.

People esteem Billy Graham and he was quite prosperous many would consider him rich and there are many other ministers like David Wilkinson and Leonard Raven Hill who lived very comfortable prosperous lives you could get lists upon lists of ministers who were very prosperous though they didn't preach or promote a prosperity gospel.

But the facts are unless you prosper somewhat you can't possibly help the poor and the people that we come across in our life.

How can you do that if you can't pay your own bills and you struggle from week to week scratching and scraping just to make ends meet that is not God's will for people though he clearly takes people through stages of want so that they learn not to trust in their bank account or their jobs so hard trials and partaking in the sufferings of Christ I believe means that many will go through struggles but that in itself isn't God's will to remain in that state.

I know dominick's not the only person who's struggling at the moment but I'm going to pray for our brother Dom and come into a agreement and believe that God wants him to have a good high paying job like Dominic wants and that he can pay his bills and have extra money to go out and evangelize and help the poor without putting himself in risk of homelessness, and I 100% believe that that's God's will.

Especially for us in the west where we were sovereignly placed in prosperous nations where one can start a business and have a prosperous business that makes profits to be able to help the kingdom become manifest on the earth through the preaching of the gospel and through charity work and hospitality.

In the book of acts that says that God has sovereignly determined that we should live where we live in this time and this age so that we may seek God.

The gospel of poverty is also an extreme false teaching and a twisting of the scriptures and it's not what the apostle Paul taught the gentiles and it is probably just as dangerous as a false unbalanced prosperity gospel that's being promoted in the church today.

And it becomes a stronghold in the mind affecting the prayers and not allowing us to believe that God actually wants to bless us or anybody else but he would prefer people poor in poverty not being able to even pay for medical treatment.

The prince of this world system has got a big hand in the poverty of this world.

If we go into the Old testament and look at how God treated people under the old covenant and even before that covenant was in place curses of poverty and famine and sickness were all a result not of God's blessing but of God pulling his hand of blessing out of either Israel's life or people's lives.

Clear principle throughout the whole Bible that shows that being in a right relationship with God as the Israelites were and as others found themselves to be in, brought them into a place of blessing where God gave them the rain and the harvests that they needed to live.

We as Christians are also his people and are under a covenant with better promises and that same principal stands and frees us from the curses that the Israelites and the people of God went through.

And so all the curses mentioned in the law that would come upon the disobedient people of God are meant to be broken in Christ because he became a curse for us.

That's not saying that we don't go through as Christians trial and tribulation and times of need where God teaches us how to put trust in him alone but it does say that we are not under a curses that brought poverty,sickness famine destruction the sword for disobedience or for blatant and sinful practices.

What I see in the church is a severe knee jerk reaction and people running to the ditch on the other side we because of excesses in this prosperity gospel so to speak , we need to find the middle ground that's biblical and the principles that is clearly laid out with in scripture and in the apostle Paul's teaching.🙏✝️🙏🥰

Yeah Ron I definitely didn't say anywhere that Barnes was a proponent of the modern prosperity gospel.

I love Paris reid and even more Tozer.

But to be fair much of Jesus ministry was alleviating the suffering of people that rejected him and didn't receive the gospel and so if we are to walk in the steps of Christ we don't just heal people who believe we just don't help people who receive the gospel we try to help and love all people enemies included and that is a part of the gospel behaviour and a part of what the apostle taught and also Christ.

Definitely you can't separate that from evangelism but it was part of how Jesus evangelized it was his ministry to heal all who came to him he did promote helping the poor as did the other apostles, without doubt charity towards those that even reject the gospel and those that don't love God is still a major part of how we express God's love and God's character. ✝️🙏✝️

Evan you are very over reactive and make very wild assumptions about people can you show me what you're talking about and any of the posts or council that I've given as you mentioned there,may cause people to believe that God doesn't love them unless they are wealthy.

I would really appreciate you cut and paste one of my posts that would indicate anything like that. I actually promote suffering as a part of the Christian walk.

And partaking in the sufferings of Christ as vital experience for us to grow in holiness and this can include losing everything practically.

I clearly think you're making false statements about me again and don't know if you even realize that so if you could put one Post that would suggest what you've just said so that I can maybe clarified or explain what I said because if you believe that then you must have not read my post properly or I haven't written it clearly and explained it properly or you are just blatantly telling falsehoods about me.☺️

Gary,

You said to someone struggling spiritually in another thread:

"Brother I will be praying for you.

I think many things can also hinder our prayers brother especially when we don't believe God wants us to prosper.

Many of us promote a gospel of poverty and then when we go through struggles sometimes it's our faith and our belief coming to pass.

You must believe that God wants you to prosper and that he does care about your finances and that he does want you to have a high paying job."

In other words, the person being counselled by you is in unbelief, and as a result is not prospering in this world with high paying jobs and financial comfort.

You said that if we believe we will be poor, we will be.

You said if we believe we will be financially prosperous, we will be.

So if someone finds themselves poor according to this world it's either due to their own lack of faith and their own unbelief, or God doesn't care for them like he does for a globetrotting preacher in his private jet.

You can read this exact sentiment and teaching in books like "The Secret" and other movements that are simply the world systems perversion of faith in God's daily provision.

My Jesus, the true unchanging one, said this:
"Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”” (Luke 12:15)

I submit to you this is to be understood as both physical and spiritual life - because the true believe has Christ as their life, and He is their portion in this world. He will provide our needs, perfectly and exactly as we need them, because He is faithful.

Brother you misunderstanding what I said and why I said it.

I didn't say that if we believe we will be pour them we will be poor.

Nor did I say if we believe we will be financially prosperous than we will be I absolutely didn't say that.

I was saying to Dom was that when you pray and make petitions for certain things you must absolutely believe that what you say will come to pass as Jesus said we must believe and not be double minded.

And so when we have a strong doctrinal belief that God doesn't want us to prosper then it will be impossible to pray for a high paying job and a good job so that you will have plenty, in the back of your mind you don't believe that.

So it was about having Faith when we pray for something and that is exactly what Jesus taught and the apostle John taught the same thing.

John Teaches that if you doubt in your heart let not that man think that he will receive anything from the Lord so that it's quite possible that when we pray regardless of what it's for if we have doubt in our heart for whatever reason the apostle John taught we will not receive what we ask for.

You've twisted what I've said to Dom and turned it into some false prosperity message it was about having Faith when we pray and that is all.
There can be a number of other hindrances in prayers as well if we are angry with our wives it says that our prayers will be hindered..

Jesus also said if you have unforgiveness in your heart towards your brother that will also hinder your prayers for your offerings to God so this is about things that can hinder our prayers.

Having Faith to believe that we have received what it is we ask for is probably one of the harder things because we can have so many doctrines or beliefs that would stop our prayers from being effective.

I Also agreed with Billy that it's possible that God is working something in Dom by allowing him to go through struggle, I thoroughly believe the as Christians we go through that as well because of our leaning on our jobs and our trust in our bank accounts sometimes we trust in our own bodily health and in the end god wants a mature person who doesn't trust in any of those things, that aside we must learn to pray in faith and slay any doctrine or idea that can get in the road of our prayers causing us to become unsure and even pushing into double-mindedness, this sacred cow needs to be slaughtered by the word of God in the sword of the spirit.

So if Dominic reads this I'm going to come into agreement and believe that God wants him to prosper and have a good high paying job which is what he wanted because he thinks he needs that to be able to do what he has to do.

So what I was asking him to do was to stand in prayer and come into agreement when two or three agree on anything it will be done for them as said Jesus.🙏✝️☺️

Poverty is a curse. That is why people in third world countries that believe and receive the gospel of Jesus Christ are not only saved, but many are healed, delivered, and have their financial needs met.

God wants to bless His people in every way, but the principle of all financial blessing and having your needs met is to seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.

We are to be faithful stewards of every thing that God has given to us.

It is really selfish to believe God for only enough to have our needs met, but God wants to bless us so that we will bless others, and so that the Kingdom of God will be advanced.

When a disciple of Christ takes up the cross and forsakes all, allowing the Lord to deal with coveteousness, he makes himself a channel of blessing to others.

There are men of God that have great wealth, and because they love God and not money, the Lord is able to channel that wealth to wherever it is needed to fulfill His Kingdom purposes.

The irony in this, and the most illuminating thing about this is the thought that only through financial prosperity can someone be a blessing to others. Abundance does not make you a blessing to others, the Lord does. If He wishes you to be a channel of blessing to someone else, that to becomes a present need that He will meet, not through financial prosperity, but through the provision of daily bread - and in this case, the other persons daily bread becomes yours, in order to give it away to them.

Covetousness is manifest in the thought that the only way for someone to be a blessing to others is if the person that is to be a blessing is rich and increased with goods themselves - this is foreign to the entire tenor of, and teaching of the one true God, Jesus Christ, who had nowhere to lay His head; and the apostles who coined the phrase, "silver and gold have I none".

It's profoundly revealing of someone's heart when they state that you can only bless others if you are rich yourself.

My Father owns the cattle on a thousand hills, and if He wishes me to be a blessing to someone, He will gladly sell one of His cows, provide me the profit with the command to give it to another person. If my bank account is at 0, and the Lord desires me to give 100 dollars to someone, He will provide the 100 dollars in His perfect way and timing - leaving my bank account once again at 0.

To say that the only way we can bless others is through abundance and prosperity is to trust in riches and money, and to forsake the Lord that provides it.

It's obvious that once again, my Bible is different than yours - and this is yet another instance of me having to decide whether I trust in 20 years of the Lord revealing Himself to me and teaching me, and leading me to practically live what I am writing - or I trust some new fangled doctrine of men that seeks to place trust in riches and abundance rather the the living God.

I will bow out, leaving everything I have written in this topic to stand on it's own. I trust what I have written in this thread is of the Lord and glorifies Him and His truth.

May we see the one true living God and His present help for every present need - and trust in His love and faithfulness over uncertain riches and doctrines of devils.

EDIT: Mike you made the unqualified claim that "poverty is a curse". If this be true, than the Jesus that is my Lord, the apostles who wrote the doctrines and teachings I seek to adhere to, are all cursed.

It's interesting when you really look at that statement, "poverty is a curse", you are placing Jesus under that curse as well. This is why these these modern doctrines of the prosperity movement are so vicious and dangerous.

Do I condemn Christians who have money? Absolutely not, I condemn no one. But I do warn them that they are cast on the mercies of God, because it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God - and yet with God all things are possible.

Evan, As in so many of your other posts, you are totally out of balance on this subject, and you have misunderstood what I posted. I would like to be able to agree with you brother, but because of the critical spirit that you operate in, it is very difficult.

In his commentary, Barnes is not making any kind of a doctrinal statement about prosperity. He is giving information on the meaning of the words in the passage. This greeting is mirrored, humorously enough, in what Spock always said in Start Trek. "Live long and prosper." It is a greeting. It is like me, writing you a letter, and saying, "Brother, I have been praying for you that all of your needs will be met and that you will remain in good health."

Does God promise to supply the needs of His people. YES, YES, a thousand times yes. Does God heal diseases. Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. But God has not promised us abundant wealth and a total lack of sickness by continual healing every time we are sick. And this greeting is not a doctrinal statement of any sort.

repeat

Gary you said "But the facts are unless you prosper somewhat you can't possibly help the poor and the people that we come across in our life."

The best way to help the poor/anyone, is to lead them to Christ so that He will be in charge of their finances while meeting their physical needs if necessary, that is, if urgently needed. Only a century ago, it was not unusual to hear of a believer inheriting a fortune and giving it all away, often to buy a large building that could be used for His work.

They would say that it is much better to live day to day in dependence.

We must always be aware that by giving to other believers, we may be interfering with God's dealings with them and we could possibly enforce some error that God wants to free them from by stripping away the things they depend on unless it is very very clear.

Spiritual growth is way more important than wealth. I thank my God that my health was destroyed when I was 10 months old and therefore incapable of work through my long life, because of the things He has shown m

Mike wrote:
"Poverty is a curse. That is why people in third world countries that believe and receive the gospel of Jesus Christ are not only saved, but many are healed, delivered, and have their financial needs met"
That's a false Gospel

Here are some interesting quotes by Leonard Ravenhill:
"The early Church was married to poverty, prisons and persecutions. Today, the church is married to prosperity, personality, and popularity."
"Christianity is Christ plus nothing!"

Markus

Revenhill was right. The saints in the early church were, most often, castigated, persecuted, and suffering what we see as lack. Yet God supplied all of their needs. They promulgated the gospel that has changed the world. When we think God promises us a life of continual wealth and healing, we often reach a point of being jaded toward God. We either relentlessly chase the carrot dangled in front of us or, sadly, realize it is always just out of reach and give up the pursuit. Often the pursuit of God suffers the same fate.

Dear Brenda,

This really caught my attention:

Spiritual growth is way more important than wealth. I thank my God that my health was destroyed when I was 10 months old and therefore incapable of work through my long life, because of the things He has shown m

What a testimony! But it looks like your post was cut short and I am really interested to read the rest of it, if you had more on your heart to share.

Bless you and thank you for posting!

Why thank you Caleb! The only thing missing was the letter 'e' as in He has shown me.

My 70+ years of life has been filled with grief, poverty, trauma, abuse and loneliness but I have learned to thank God that He has deemed me honoured to share in the sufferings of His Son and through it have been allowed to enter into the Throne room in intimate fellowship with Him.

I have lost four children in adulthood, been rejected wherever I have gone, spiritually abused in churches, oh the list is long! But His peace and joy are always within me.

He has taught me the high road of holiness and without it no-one shall see the Lord. Blessings to you.

Some scriptures to consider, that shows one way or the other poverty is not a blessing from God.

2 Tim 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…

Proverbs 28:19
Verse Concepts
He who tills his land will have plenty of food,
But he who follows empty pursuits will have poverty in plenty.

Proverbs 23:21
Verse Concepts
For the heavy drinker and the glutton will come to poverty,
And drowsiness will clothe one with rags.

Proverbs 21:17
Verse Concepts
He who loves pleasure will become a poor man;
He who loves wine and oil will not become rich.

Proverbs 23:21
Verse Concepts
For the heavy drinker and the glutton will come to poverty,
And drowsiness will clothe one with rags.

Proverbs 10:4
Verse Concepts
Poor is he who works with a negligent hand,
But the hand of the diligent makes rich.

Deuteronomy 28:1-68 ESV /
"And if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God. Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. ...

Galatians 3:13 ESV /
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us””for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”””

2 Corinthians 8:9 ESV /
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich.

Proverbs 28:27 ESV
Whoever gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.

Malachi 3:10 ESV
Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.

Deuteronomy 28:45-46 ESV /
"All these curses shall come upon you and pursue you and overtake you till you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that he commanded you. They shall be a sign and a wonder against you and your offspring forever.

Gary,

Context.

And like usual nothing, as in not a single word I wrote so far has even been acknowledged - let alone discussed, except to offer insults and accusations.

Deuteronomy 28:1-68 ESV /
"And if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God. Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. ...

Galatians 3:13 ESV /
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us””for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”””

Unfortunately these verses are taken far out of context and mashed together to try to prove a doctrine that does not exist. The Deuteronomy passage were the pronunciation of blessings upon the literal nation of Israel if they kept the actual law of Moses upon entry into the promised land and the curses if they did not from the peaks of the two mountains. Paul references Deuteronomy and the fact that everyone that is does not keep the entirety of the law is under a curse to make the point that is the topic of the entirety of the letter to the Galatians. It is the fact that we can never receive righteousness by keeping the law.

He then goes on in Galatians to explain what the curse of the law is, and what the blessing of Abraham is. He also wrote about this same contrast in Romans 4. It is a companion passage and useful to reinforce what Paul is saying here.

The curse of the law is the literal damnation that the law pronounces upon us, the condemnation that comes from our attempting to be right with God by keeping it. The blessing of Abraham is made VERY clear in Romans 4 and in a contextual reading of the entirety of Galatians 3. It is, specifically and exclusively, righteousness by faith (Abraham believed God and it was counted unto Him for righteousness)and the fact that this was extended to the Gentiles as well by faith.

These passages have been twisted beyond any true Biblical exegesis by those who are grasping at straws to prove we are to be rich like Abraham.

We need to study carefully or we will wind up being deceived by those who twist scripture. Copeland, et.al..

I am getting ready to put a full teaching on this topic on YouTube soon. It has been in the works for several months now.

Evan I apologise that you feel insulted from what I've said so socal media text messages are not great for that reason can you show me why you feel insulted and what accusations you feel I made.

Travis I don't subscribe to the teaching that the blessings of Abraham or the blessings for believing god were only for Israel and clearly in the first century the apostles taught that the Jews were still to follow the law but the gentiles didn't have to keep many of the requirements but we fulfill the righteous requirements of the law..

If you read the book of acts it's clear that the Jews still followed the law even while they were part of the new covenant and we have been grafted into Israel and partake of the blessing that is in Christ because of him fulfilling that law and bringing about the blessings that were promised to Israel

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/covenant-blessings#:~:text=God%20promised%20the%20Israelites%20that,fruitfulness%20in%20the%20womb%20(vv.

This is ligonier ministries RC sprouls old ministry this may give you a bit of an idea on what I'm talking about this is basically the same type of principle that I'm talking about

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/covenant-curses
Application of covenant curses

Dear sister Brenda,

Thank you for your reply! Your strong spirit in Christ shines through your words and I’m greatly encouraged to hear of your perseverance in the faith, and joy to this day! Hallelujah!

Thanks again Caleb.

The idea of blessings on account of obedience was for the Old Covenant and we see that clearly in Job who was a righteous man but lost it all though he had not sinned.

His 'comforters' argued from that understanding and tried to make him admit that it was sin that had brought the calamity upon him but he knew it was not. He was walking under the New Covenant whereby he worshipped God for who is is and not for what He gave. His answer to his wife was:

2:9 Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast to your integrity? [c]Curse God and die!”

10But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Job was to undergo a trial that many have experienced at the Hand of God in order to bring them from out of the Old Covenant to the New, whereby man is crucified with Christ, the world and sin and walk like Job and Abraham before him walked before Christ in holiness or entire sanctification.

The new gospel going around takes men back to the Old and ties him to the things of the world under the pretext of 'you can help others' or it is a sin to be poor.

I have had this all of my Christian life if not spoken then thought, but through that suffering of judgement, it brings us closer to the Lord and therefore defeats the aims of the enemy.

Travis I don't subscribe to the teaching that the blessings of Abraham or the blessings for believing god were only for Israel and clearly in the first century the apostles taught that the Jews were still to follow the law but the gentiles didn't have to keep many of the requirements but we fulfill the righteous requirements of the law..

If you read the book of acts it's clear that the Jews still followed the law even while they were part of the new covenant and we have been grafted into Israel and partake of the blessing that is in Christ because of him fulfilling that law and bringing about the blessings that were promised to Israel

The problem comes when we conflate God's blessings on Abraham. "the blessing of Abraham" taught by Paul in Galatians 3 and Romans 4, and the blessings that God promised for Israel IF they kept the law in Deuteronomy 28 and 29. I don't believe that the blessing (singular) of Abraham is confined only to Israel either. God chose Abraham and Israel as a people through whom He would bring forth the Messiah, God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, to reconcile the word back to Him. Remember, I made a specific point that a major part of this blessing was that the Gentiles were also ushered in. "In thee shall ALL nations of the Earth be blessed."

But don't conflate the blessing of Abraham in Romans and Galatians with the blessings that Abraham had from God on this Earth or with the blessings pronounced in Mount Gerizim. They are NOT the same thing. Not even close! And the Bible is very clear about it. And don't conflate the curse of the law with the curses pronounced on Mount Ebal. They are NOT the same thing. Biblically, not even close.

But that is the problem. The prosperity teachers take these three things and mash them all together because Paul referenced Deuteronomy and the words blessing, curse, and Abraham appear in the text. They either don't know the Bible and don't study it to find out what it really says (genuine ignorance of the Word of God), or they twist it on purpose to justify their own desire for money and what it can buy. I really cannot see another option. They are wrong by accident, or wrong on purpose.

Bro. Gary:

As to what Sproul wrote. He is correct in one important point. God blesses obedience. God blesses those who have repented, been saved, and are now walking with Him. We have a good number of blessings under the New Covenant that are specifically given in scripture. And, the God of the New Covenant is still the same God of the Old Covenant. We find consistency, then, in His blessing of His people Israel in the Old Covenant and His blessing of His people in a larger sense, spiritual Israel, in the New Covenant.

There are also consequences for rebellion and disobedience. This has been a heavily debated topic here, to what degree do God's judgments come on man under the New Covenant. But the point is that rebellion against God does bring a curse on the person rebelling.

But the fact that there are blessings for God's people now does not mean that we can misrepresent or misinterpret what Paul is sayin in Galatians to prove that point and make the blessings into something more than they are for the sake of justifying what we want to believe.

By the way, although I agreed with Sproul on a general level, he says some things that are just truly bizarre. For example, this paragraph.

Ancient Israel was not to look at keeping God's covenant as a means to earn their salvation. Thus, for the old covenant people, faithfulness did not mean perfect obedience, which is impossible for sinners. They were to strive to obey, repent when they failed, and look for the Messiah to earn salvation for them by His following the law perfectly (Gen. 3:14”“15; Lev. 18:5; Deut. 18:15). But as they conformed, generally speaking, to God's law, they enjoyed a foretaste of eternal life in the new heaven and earth.

[Why thank you Caleb! The only thing missing was the letter 'e' as in He has shown me.

My 70+ years of life has been filled with grief, poverty, trauma, abuse and loneliness but I have learned to thank God that He has deemed me honoured to share in the sufferings of His Son and through it have been allowed to enter into the Throne room in intimate fellowship with Him.

I have lost four children in adulthood, been rejected wherever I have gone, spiritually abused in churches, oh the list is long! But His peace and joy are always within me.

He has taught me the high road of holiness and without it no-one shall see the Lord. Blessings to you.]

Dear sister Brenda,

Your statement made me weep and brought a beam of light into my soul, and I believe others, too. My troubles are light in comparison to yours. Bless you sister, you can minister to others who are in darkness and dispair.

One of the most balanced teachers on the blessing and the curse was Derek Prince, who was not a Word of faith prosperity preacher, but he also didn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Lord gave Derek Prince much revelation on curses and deliverance ministry, and many people were helped and set free through his ministry. Derek Prince was charismatic, believed in the gifts of the Spirit, but was also quick to point out the errors and excesses of Charismania.

The reason why I am referring to Derek Prince in these posts on prosperity and the curse is because it would be well worth your while to access his teachings on the subject.

Travis I clearly lean towards a covenant theology that is taught within The reformed camps and believe by many great men of God who are thoroughly filled with the spirit.

I agree with the original commentary from Barnes and also RC sproul on this.

I don't expect you to agree with them but I would say one thing I think you have a very low view of what it means to be in Christ and to be the seed of Abraham due to the fact that we are joined with Christ and being a seed of Abraham the blessings and the promises that came upon Abraham and that were given to him was due to faith which produced obedience and this is the same faith and obedience that we have acquired from God through the empowering of the holy spirit and because of that and what Christ did we become a part of the favored line of Abraham.

That favoured line upon which the blessing of Abraham came went through Isaac and into Jacob the very same blessing that was upon Jacob went through his lineage in those who had faith and believed.

It was Emphasized through the old covenant and made known to Israel , covenant that was made with Jacob and his sons and that those that would have faith under that system were also blessed with the blessing of Abraham and that is clearly taught in that covenant.

The righteous shall live by faith the Bible says and it is that faith that brought people into the blessings that God had promised Abraham and that he emphasized and reiterated in the law and because Jesus Christ was the seed through whom everyone was blessed whether it be the old covenant righteous faithful or today the new covenant righteous faithful we become heirs in the future we inherit the Earth just like they do.

But the blessing of Abraham included the breaking off of the curses that were plaguing the world at the time and the curses that would plage Israel if they if they disobeyed,

We are one in Christ, Abraham is our father and we inherit the same promise that passes through his maternal lineage and that includes Salvation, deliverance from demons healing prosperity success and authority over all the works of the Devil.

Jesus demonstrated that authority over the works of evil and passed it on to us by faith and that blessing and we are to pass on and bring people into the family of God.

But like I said before we still go through trials and tribulations to purify us which never seems like a blessing at the time.

This is nothing to do with a modern prosperity gospel this is the Bible and the covenant that we are under.

It has to do with us being able to love others and fulfill our desires of our hearts for charity to be able to help the poor and to promote the gospel and to bring the fallen world into the kingdom of God.

You Can thank the reformers for that like Jonathan Edwards and others.

What I've noticed and I was guilty of this in the past not that it's a mortal sin but we have such a knee jerk reaction to the things that we perceive as being wrong that we end up going so far in the other direction that we actually can't see the text for what it really says.

This was the normal prominent belief amongst the the major teaches in the first and second grade awakening who subscribed to a post millennial eschatology.

It's not some bizarre heretical teaching it's an extremely biblical interpretation.

Brenda wrote:
"The new gospel going around takes men back to the Old and ties him to the things of the world under the pretext of 'you can help others' or it is a sin to be poor."
Sadly there are so many new "gospels" in the church now that makes it difficult to discern what is true and what is false.

Paul wrote:
"But more than that, I count everything as loss compared to the priceless privilege and supreme advantage of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord [and of growing more deeply and thoroughly acquainted with Him””a joy unequaled]. For His sake I have lost everything, and I consider it all garbage, so that I may gain Christ, (Phil 3:8 Ampl.)

Markus

"Poverty is a curse."

"Blessed be ye poor, for yours is the kingdom of God."

I know which one I believe.

God’s promise to those that have forsaken all:

Matthew 19:28”“30

NKJV

"So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ," (Ephesians 1:3)

"for His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.”

"Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to set their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.” (1 Timothy 6:17)

Niegel, you’ve been asking us to pray for you for a better job, so if poverty is a blessing, aren’t you blessed not having enough without asking for prayer for a better job?

It’s kinda like the child of God that says this disease that God has put on me is a blessing, and then turn around and go to the doctors to try to get a cure for the blessing that supposedly God has put on them.

Mike you might be talking about Dominic rather than Nigel.

Jesus is not saying that you are blessed because you are poor he's speaking to followers and disciples who had been under a curse of the law being Jews and sinners and now they have the savior of the world discipling them and for that reason they were blessed

Gary:

Please don't take offense at this, but I am going to leave my discussion with you right where it is. You are straying from a discussion of the topic at hand and presuming to know what I do and do not have a high view of, and that I am having a "knee jerk reaction" to something. I'm sorry brother, but you only know what I have chosen to write about a particular topic, not what, indeed, is happening in my heart.

Blessings.

Dear sister Brenda,

Your statement made me weep and brought a beam of light into my soul, and I believe others, too. My troubles are light in comparison to yours. Bless you sister, you can minister to others who are in darkness and dispair.

Thank you for the encouragement narrowpath. I do believe that God has been preparing me for the time we are in and is to come, and am encouraged by the interest here in the 'higher life' doctrine.

I feel strongly that, those who will not enter into this level of the Christian life of denying self, will be those who will fall away when the going gets tough and persecution comes.

It is clearly found in the early church fathers teaching and is the purest form. It did not translate in its fullness to the west though, but has been found at various times of revival.

The west has mainly taught it to be in two stages, but the true one from early times and in scripture is in three stages, so one of the problems is that one stops before the third stage of divinization thinking that's all there is. Keswick theology is like this.

Brenda said:
"The west has mainly taught it to be in two stages, but the true one from early times and in scripture is in three stages, so one of the problems is that one stops before the third stage of divinization thinking that's all there is. Keswick theology is like this."

I like this breakdown of the stages of revelation: justification, sanctification/union, intercession/co laborer with Jesus (ministry of reconciliation, existing for God and others, etc.)

Obviously the explanations of these stages require much more meditation, prayer and revelation from the Holy Spirit to fully understand - and the light truly dawns when the Holy Spirit reveals to us in our depths it's all been given in Jesus through His finished work, by faith.

Keswick is mostly forgotten about these days, interestingly I was just the other day looking through the brethren that were involved in the early conventions and the list is illuminating - both in the names and the variation of thought brought together in unity through the mutual love for, and desire for Jesus to be all in all.

It's refreshing to see others coming back to the forum with this light.

I don't want to detract from the purpose of this thread at all, so please ignore this post unless its pertinent to you - I just wanted to offer an Amen to Brenda both for this and the other glorious testimonial posts.

Not God first, but God only.

Thank you Evan for this last post. I wonder if you would like to start a new thread with it so we can look into the three patristic stages of entire sanctification without distracting from this thread.

"Not God first, but God only." Amen and Amen!

I got fired from my last job after working there for 6 years. I never missed a day, and worked so hard some days I could barely walk up the stairs to my apartment. I worked my way up to supervisor, so I had to take part in the "sensitivity training" course put on by the HR department. It's the usual nonsense they try to spoon feed people these days, like "white privilege" and pronoun/transgender craziness. I of course would not let them brainwash me, and tried to tell my co workers how stupid it all is. Everyone there knew me to be a serious christian. I took every chance I could to share the gospel with my co workers. They ended up firing me without cause. I took a job in a similar company (seafood processing), where I have been for 2 years now. It pays less but I don't mind the work. I worked my way up to supervisor again. It is trying to be around godless people for so many hours a day; if I ever asked for prayer for a new job, it would be for a change of venue, not more money. I am content with my wage.

I believe in honoring God with hard work and that He does not reward sloth.

When I got clean from drugs in 2013, I left the house I lived in because of all the drug use there, and hitchhiked to the next town over with nothing but the clothes on my back and a backpack. I had no place to live, no job, no money in the bank. I slept on the street. I told Jesus "I'll follow You even if it kills me." When I prayed for a job and a place to live, I told the Lord "I love You no matter what circumstance I am in, but could you please provide me with a job and a place to stay. Everything I have belongs to You. I will always honor You with any money I make and help the poor and hurting. You know my heart, that I am not greedy, but could I please earn enough to make ends meet?"

He honors that kind of prayer.

To turn God into a slot machine makes me want to throw up. Jesus Himself was homeless during His three year ministry (Matthew 8:20). The apostles had no certain dwelling place (1 Corinthians 4:11).

Amen Nigel, I am happy for you and Praise God's goodness and mercy and covenant of blessing, that he didn't leave you in poverty in your trials but prospered you, that you can be a blessing to others.

Gary, I would be content if Jesus were to take everything I have away and have me live on the street again. I have asked Him if He wants me to leave it all. He can use me to bless other without a penny in my pocket.

The world can have all the filthy, moth ridden mammon. It's all dung to me.

"All who will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution." 2 Timothy 3:12. I name it and claim it! Lol.

Brother, I wouldn't boast about what you think your are capable of, spending 10 years on the streets, you may not be so content.

Its only Grace

Not boasting, just being content. Also, I'm 38, so it would be more like 30 years. Yes, it is NOT fun, believe me. But if I have Jesus, even if I have to sleep on a park bench, that's more than enough for me.

Brenda mentioned "the 'higher life' doctrine"
This can also lead us away from Christ, when we try and "overspiritualize" everything.

"The main thing about being a Christian is to see that the main thing remains the main thing." That is what Paul is saying. The "main thing" is that at the heart and center of your life is the "simplicity that is in Christ," a simple thing." ( Ray Stedman, devotional on 2 Cor. 11:3)

I don't want to go off-topic, so I just leave you with this clear warning.

Markus

Markus brother, I agree entirely with that quote. It is indeed simplicity when understood. What you are objecting to was the teaching of Wesley and that in the times of revival. It certainly went against Reformed doctrine of that is what you mean.