God does not love me because I am righteous - I am righteous because he loves me.

" It is not false for me to say that I please God each moment of my life. He is pleased with all that I do. I have not sinned against him in twenty years "

Complete-IH
Welcome to the forum.
What you have written is not Biblical Christianity
May you be willing to learn from this forum and the messages that you find here.
May you find the true Christ.

Markus

Dear Complete-IH,

Thank you for your post! I am curious how long you have been following the forum on this site? Have you ever read any of the posts by beloved-vern? Your post reminded me a lot of his writings.

I appreciated your dog analogy. Well written!

From a practical standpoint, I too wrestle with what brother markus called out, yet I'm open to it just being a matter of semantics.

The way you wrote it, I can smell the aroma of the Apostle Paul who stated in Romans 7:17

But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Is that what you are getting at when you say that you have not sinned in twenty years, and won't sin in the next twenty years and that it's impossible to sin against Him? Because it's not you (your new identity in Christ) that sins? Rather, it's "sin" in itself, as an entity, but that it no longer defines you?

I sense that you are not saying that to make excuses, or to keep on sinning, far from it!

That said, do you also, like Apostle Paul, acknowledge that sin (the flesh) still is at "war" within you? It just no longer has power over you, nor is it part of your new identity?

Thank you for any clarification that you are able to offer to better help me understand where you are coming from!

Welcome to the forum. Since you have been following for a long time, you might know that what happens here is a good thing, at least in my opinion, but your perspective will be challenged for sure.

I understand the heart of what you are trying to say. When we are born again, we are declared righteous by the blood of Jesus Christ. Righeousness is imputed to us by Him. We are now right with God.

But I have to respectfully disagree with a few things you said.

Imputed righteousness does not mean that we are righteous in all of our actions. We still sin. If you claim not to have missed the mark, not to have committed any sinful acts, in 20 years, that would be quite a feat, one that no other human has been able to pull off.

We still sin, but our sins are covered. They are not being charged to your account because of faith in Christ for salvation. "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."

And God is not pleased with everything we do. Nor is He concerned with making sure we are happy. He loves us, and He is concerned with bringing transforming us into His image as we grow in holiness. I know that when I sin, it does not make Him happy. He brings us joy unspeakable. But this joy is not always happiness. Those who are martyred are not basking in happiness as they face the executioner. But they have a grace upon their life to face it with expectant hope, a joy that cannot be understood by their attackers.

I get your heart in what you are saying. I will even go so far as to say that I can almost pinpoint one or two of your favorite teachers. But I think we have to be careful not to overstate even a good thing.

IH ? Do you farm? Just wondering. International Harvester?

Abiding in Christ what a beautiful truth!
Keeping in step with His Spirit as our primary absolute.
Hidden within Him, so the world can see His unbelievable, unfathomable value and Him the truest first fruit.
Being dead to self, but alive within Christ through the crucifixion and His finished work!
All His accomplishments least any should boast, dependency fully on Him. After coming to the end of our own self-worth.
His righteousness alone, His blood, His Spirit.
How wonderfully, magnificent it is to know Him for ourselves, it being revealed to us through our second birth.
Who surrendered His life, that we might truly live, based soley on His eternal purpose through our repentance and His eternal truth.
Then He reminded us that we will know them, our brethren by their fruits.
For those who claim Him, should have within them His very life as their eternal lasting proof.

I realize that this does not clear everything up, but hopefully it is a valid start

Indeed it is! Thank you very much. I will be pondering these things. Grace to you!

As wonderful as it sounds to experience the awareness of God's imputed righteousness and the infilling of the Holy Spirit, what you present is not biblical truth. In fact this teaching has been around for a while and there are folks around me who have subscribed to this teaching and it is hard to disentangle.

You are presenting an important truth, but to the exclusion of other thruths that balance it out.

If you look at the life of the apostles, especially Paul, you find a different picture. He is arguably one of the best living human examples of how holy a man can be and live in Christ. This finds expression not only in what he says, but also in his life and suffering.

In his self-statements he started from seeing himself as been the least of the apostles and later the chief of sinners.

1 Corinthians 15:9
King James Version
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

and later

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

None has had a better understanding of grace in the bible than Paul. The work of the cross filled Paul with deep gratitude. He knew his righteousness was a invaluable gift from God and yet at the same time he knew he was the most undeserving of all.

Even in heaven the twentyfour elders cast the very crowns God had given them crying.

"11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Angels who never sinned covered their faces and feet before God, knowing that Gods Glory was to much for them to behold.

Everyone who has truly experienced God's grace will at the same time be aware of his utter undeservedness.

It is self-deception to think you have not sinned in 20 years and will never sin.

That means you should no longer pray the Lord's prayer, because you no longer need forgiveness if you had not sinned!

I am need in of forgiveness daily, and I am utterly grateful for it.

Hi Complete-IH,

You said:

I have not sinned against him in twenty years. I will not sin against him in the next twenty years.

And you gave the dog analogy:

Think of it like this - my dog is allowed in my house because he is clean. Because he is clean, I let him sit at my feet. Because he is clean, I will hug him close as I scratch his ears. Because my dog is clean, I am able to receive the dog with open arms. However, I don't love my dog because he is clean. Rather, because I love my dog, I use my own power and effort to ensure that my dog stays clean. If he roles in a cow patty when we walk in the field, I will use my power and effort to wash the dog off so he can continue to come in the house and lay beside me. Being clean is a condition of the dog being allowed in my house, but being clean is not a condition of my love for the dog. I loved the dog even when he was covered in manure; I then proved that love for him by washing him at my own expense. I don't love the dog because he is clean, but I cleaned the dog because I love him. And this is how is it between my God and I. He does not love me because I am clean, but he cleaned me because he loves me.

Just as the dog is still not clean sometimes and must be cleaned, wouldn’t you also sin sometimes and need to be cleansed from your sin?

How do you explain this:

1 John 1:8-10 ”“
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

I submit that Christians can still sin because the body is not yet redeemed, and we still live in this world and are vulnerable to the lusts of the flesh and the lusts of the eyes and the boastful pride of life that are from the world.

My great grandfather used to frequent the bars on Main Street in Joplin until God transformed his life, then he had a storefront church on Main Street. Joplin is a good town. Very cool that you lived here.

When does righteousness come?

I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but, two weeks ago my pastor allowed me to teach Sunday school and I taught on the divine exchange that took place at the cross, when, to those who believe, our sinfulness was exchanged for the rightoeusness of Christ being inputed to us.So I'm familiar with these doctrinal grounds. We inherit Christ's righteouness at the instant of our salvation and not some time later or years down the road as a result of a season of diligently and fervently seeking God as you shared. I'm a bit confused because you shared about coming into your belief twenty years ago and then in your last post you mentioned seven years ago. Maybe it's just me being confused.

At any rate, it may not be taught properly in the church, if taught at all, but we receive Christ's righteousness at the instant of our salvation. All who believe inherit this whether they know it or not. Some go on to different levels of sanctification as they progressively learn more and more to live it out. Yet, nowhere in any circumstance does scripture suport the notion that after coming to a fuller revelation of beingt the righteousness of God in Christ that this will enable one to stop sinning against God. This in actuality is an abuse of the doctrine. Is this maybe what the hyper-grace controversy is all about? I don't know.

None of us have the level of daily sanctification that we desire, but we are are learning to more and more walk it out. Based on Hebrews 10:14, which you might take a look at as to its meaning, our sanctification is progressive and not all at once. We all still sin. No one can claim different. I think you know this bro. You seem to have have a good heart, but if you have walked with God for any length of time, you have to know beyond a doubt that we all still sin. We will until that glorious day. Our hope will not be disappointed but meanwhile.

Just an observation:

Why would anyone argue FOR sin in the believers life? John never said "because we will always sin and we all know this" but "I write these things so that you may not sin, and IF any man sin" - notice he says if, not when - these are very different words.

(EDIT: Also, the preoccupation with sin instead of Christ is something to be examined. I think when sin is the primary focus, whether positively or negatively, we are off base.)

I praise God for the testimony of Complete-IH, it is very similar to my own, very profoundly so in fact, as my life in Christ spans about 2 decades as well, following a very similar course - albeit different in that Lord shows us these truths in very different ways, at different times, based on our circumstances and experience.

I went years and years struggling in my own self effort, only to find the Lord leaving me to that effort to show me it's futility and the evident truth it will only lead me the opposite direction of my desire - which even then was the Lord.

Amen Complete-IH, I would love to hear your understanding of "Christ in you, the hope of glory" after these dealings of the Lord.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that - ignore me otherwise.

You're assuming things ESchaible. No one, nor me, is trying to concentrate on sin instead of salvation and freedom from sin in Christ. Who is preoccupied with sin? Not I. Yet, our bodies are saved but not yet glorified. Our minds, really part of our bodies, are not completely renewed yet. Sure concentrate on Christ, but it's the "IF you sin" people are addressing. It is possible still to sin with our bodies and our minds.

It was stated,

/It is no lie for me to say that I am righteous. It is not false for me to say that I please God each moment of my life. He is pleased with all that I do. I have not sinned against him in twenty years. I will not sin against him in the next twenty years. It is impossible for me to sin against him. I can do nothing but please God./

"I have not siinned against Him in twenty years."

"I will not sin against Him in the next twenty years."

"IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO SIN AGAINST HIM."

I like the brother's heart toward God, and of course am not the final spokesmen all should look to. But I have just recently been looking into this very issue again, and it's just a simple undeniable fact that we all still sin and will until the glorious day. We don;tsin in the mass volume that we did before we were in Christ but we all still groan within this present body of ours. "IF you sin" days still occur. At this point though, it cannot be suppported by scripture, or borne out by real life experience, that it is impossible for an individual at this point to sin against God. Again, I appreciate the brother and his heart. I'm glad he has come into a deeper walk with God. Yet I know for sure he has consciousness of sins he has committed over the past twenty years. He is fooling himself if he denies it. He's just not calling them sins.

I's so very weary of all the never ending talk of revival at this point. I want revival, but I think if the church went back and studied again and taught with renewed intensity some of the more basic and foundational provisions coming from the cross we would indeed find a revival in our midst. Receiving the righteousness of God in Christ in place of our sinfulness is defintely part of what I think needs to have a fresh look taken at it. But one must stop short of the belief that a fuller apprehension of this righteousness would render it impossible for one to sin against God at this point. Bless IH, but a greater balance is needed here. Then, after a proper balance is achieved, I dare say the gift of imputed righteousness would mean even more to him.

David,

It's interesting how this could possibly a "both and" rather than an "either or" discussion. I could be wrong, but I see both sides clearly in scripture.

We have to be careful in these discussions, as these are different than the discussion we are used to on this forum, where there is clear deception and clear truth - as in these cases both views are scriptural, and should be sought to reconcile rather than correct and refute each other. The gospel reconciles the justification of sin and the sinner - forgiving the sin and making the sinner new, all by the finished work of Jesus.

I would submit to you though that mind rests solidly in the soul - our mind and brain are not the same.

As an aside, I am also extremely weary of, and at this point, suspicious of all of the revival talk.

I understand what you are saying. I can relate very strongly to laying down one's own works and efforts. The remedy of course is "those who are LED BY THE SPIRIT are the sons of God" and "there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT."

I would just offer a word of caution against expressing your beliefs in rightepousness by saying things like, "I have not sinned ain against Him." At this point in all of our walks, these things just aren't so good bro. Among the scripturally literate saints of God, these types of statements are never going to be accepted. So just a word of caution.

You said,

"Please don't get me wrong - I am not claiming that the work is complete..." That is what I am getting at by way of reminder.

Blessings.

A lot of saints still recoil when someone believes and states that there is a divine nature placed inside of us at salvation that cannot sin (I John 3:9). This new nature is of God and is a result of being born again by the INCORRUPTIBLE seed of the word (I Peter 1:23).This part of you cannot sin, but yet, we are stil living in a body that is redeemed but not yet glorified and changed. We need to concentrate more on the new sinless nature within. That's for sure.

Then there's Hebrews 10:14.

Quoting,

"Consider Hebrews 10:14" By one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

"He has perfected forever." The verb "has perfected" appears in the perfect tense. Only once was Christ's sacrifice to be offered, never to be repeated - a perfect sacrifice that would completely perfect all those who put their faith in it. What Jesus has done, and its effect in us, is perfect,complete, forever. Nothing can ever be taken from it. Nothing need ever to be added to it. What God has done is complete, perfect, final. Never will it have to be changed or modified. But our appropration of it is progressive. It is important to see this, especially as we want to continue to emphasize the perfection of Christ's work at the cross."

"You may be saying to yourself, "I don't have that type of perfection or sanctification." The truth is, none of us has it. I have studied and taiught on this themer for over fifty years, but I am still being sanctified. Our sanctification is progressive. We are those who are coming progressively closer to God, getting further and further separated from sin and the world, receiving more and more of God into our beings. That is what the revelation of the cross does for us and in us."

(From "Bought with Blood: The Divine Exchange at the Cross"- by Derek Prince; copyright 2000; Ch 2 - "Perfected Forever"- pg 20)

We are still waiting for the redemption of the body,

Rom. 8:23 ”“
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING EAGERLY FOR our adoption as sons, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.

The deeds of the body must still be put to death by the Spirit BY BELIEVERS.

Rom 8:12-13 ”“
So then, BRETHREN, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh”” for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but IF BY THE SPIRIT YOU ARE PUTTING TO DEATH THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, YOU WILL LIVE.

That is, believers can still be living according to the flesh and must be putting to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit.

Also, note that "flesh" and "deeds of body" are related.

It is no longer by our own work but by the work of the Spirit through our faith. But the fight of faith must be actively fought to the end of our earthly days. The crown of righteousness is not awarded at the beginning on conversion but when we have kept the faith TO THE END.

2 Tim. 4:7-8 ”“
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Matt. 24:13 ”“
But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Only those who are abiding in Christ are sin-free.

1 John 3:5-6 (KJV) --
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.

Are we always and continually abiding in Christ?

I do not think that we should be telling people that it is finished, we are entirely sanctified, and there is nothing more to be done.

We should be telling people that we are sanctified when we are moment by moment abiding in Christ and our confidence is in Him alone. It is easy not to remember Jesus and see Him and abide in Him and He in us when the cares of life crush us or when the riches and the glory of the world blind us.

(Edited)

Hi Complete-IH

I too have been around for quite some time though not as long as you, posting or just reading, mostly the just reading.

Thank you for your fuller explanation of your position with this last post. It is helping me see more clearly but I wonder if you would mind me asking some questions thanks.

Interesting that you say that you are in Christ yet scripture also usually says that it is the Holy Spirit that is in us whereby He comes to dwell and in fact the whole of the OT is using types etc to show this indwelling in His holy temple a picture of ourselves, can only occur if it has been cleansed which the NT tells us must be inward as well as outward and that He will leave if the temple is corrupted.

1) Can you lay out the progression of the disciples in their walk of faith, from being called by Jesus up till Pentecost with the important events like the breathing on them the Holy Spirit and the Transfiguration, what they mean spiritually to us and how your walk relates to all of this?

2) Could you tell me who is teaching this or are you saying that it has only been revealed to you?

3) What if a non believer hears you say that you do not sin but witnesses various sins in you?

4) Has this position of yours been in the church since the beginning and if not, why? Would it concern you if not?

5) Where does the Spirit baptism come in?

Thanks.

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires [Past tense]. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." Galatians 5:16-18,24,25

"I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes and are careful and follow My ordinances." Ezekiel 36:27

Just a few thoughts to consider. The teacher brother already presented the fact that John revealed sin was not to be the norm in our lives after the new birth, and I feel led to add that unbelief kept a whole generation within that wilderness till almost all passed away before entrance into the promise land was permitted! Just thoughts and a warning, may Our Heavenly Father have His way with each of us, knowing our journeys, and experiences are different in Him as He brings us each into Christ likeness. Through so many variables, experiences, and giftings! He brings forth for His purposes within us and through us for His glory. Face on the ground, love you all! Thank you for your post Complete-IH, I had hoped my try at a poem displayed that. I love you heavenly Father, your will be done on earth as it is already done in Heaven! Worthy is the lamb that was slain! Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God almighty who was, and is, and is to come.

Complete IH wrote:
"it is the product of years and years of being led and taught by God.."
IH, you never even mention the true Gospel.

We can't put our experience above the written Word of God.!
Cults like the Mormons also claim they have been led by God.
I'm more and more concerned what I read on this forum !

"God be thanked for the simplicity of the gospel. The longer I live, the more I bless God that we have not received a classical gospel, nor a mathematical gospel, nor a metaphysical gospel; it is not a gospel confined to scholars and men of genius, but a poor man s gospel, a ploughman's gospel; for that is the kind of gospel which we can live upon and die upon. "(Spurgeon)

May we discover this Gospel again and be deeply rooted in it.

Markus

Dear Complete-IH,

I greatly appreciate your analogies. The one with the helmet immediately reminded me of the helmet of salvation in Ephesians.

Anyway, thank you for engaging with the many questions people have as we seek greater understanding of the realities of which you speak.

Much grace and patience to you! ❤️🙏

Personally, I’m still processing on it, sensing that many of us here are much more united in the Spirit than even we know or realize.

I could be wrong about this of course, but don’t think so, despite the tenor of some of the posts that would indicate otherwise.

Brother Billy! I just read your poem. Brother, that was awesome! Praise the Lord! 🙌🙌🙌

Thank you Complete-IH for your answer and I will wait with anticipation for more enlightenment.

On the question regarding the source of your beliefs, I have been having a discussion somewhere else with someone who seems to have the same ideas, that they tried to do their utmost in obedience until one day they saw that Christ did not see their sins so they were relieved of this effort. So I wonder if this is a new movement that is coming into the church which does not have to have its source in man and in fact does not when it is heretical.

I wonder if you can answer the last one though? That should be easy? Thanks. Brenda

/David

This is what God did for me. The fact that this does not match your theology matters little to me. You approval and acceptance of this truth is not needed in order for it to be true/

That is well and good. I can agree with that. However, that does not keep other people and readers from being able to discern more than one basic flaw in what you have shared. Whatever has happened to you may be good overall in many ways, but I don't belive that you yourself understand it according to Scriptural standards and norms.

/If you read my original post you will notice that I never said that I have not sinned in the last twenty years. What I said was that I have not sinned AGAINST GOD in the last twenty years. To those words I hold./

To these words the Bible holds, there is no sin that is not sin against God. That is Basic 101 Christian theology that even spiritual babes understand. You can't sin and not be sinning against God.

/I know that I have not sinned against God in the last twenty years because it impossible for me to do so.

He cannot be offended by anything I say or do because he does not see what I say or do.

I cannot sin against God because the ME who was a sinner for the past 20 years has not been noticed by God.

My sins have had no effect upon God since I was placed in Christ because those sins just don’t exist. He doesn’t see them.

He can’t be hurt or angered by them. My sins do not cause him any grief because he is completely unaware of them./

You have a good heart I believe, but where would one even start to address these patently false assumptions. At best, assumptions is all they can because they are not scriptural in the least. God doesn't see your sins because they just don't exist? Because you now have the righteousness of Christ, God is completely unaware of your sins? These things just don't pass the muster good bro. Like I said, you may have had an experience with God but obviously don't understand what happened and the results. You can't base these beliefs on scripture because you can't find them there. I would go back to the drawing board if I were you. And learn how to express with more scriptural clarity what you think happened. Much of what you have shared could not have been taught to you by the Holy Spirit. That sounds overbearing and harsh I know, but it is what it is as they say. No one is against you and I sense several here have a concern for you. Please receive that. God be with you. You are precious and accepted by Him.

God does get grieved and sees our sin

29 Let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building up the one in need and bringing grace to those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

I wonder if there is a wrong emphasis somewhere deep in the center of this discussion.

The issue for all who have deeper experiences with the Lord centers around the futility of works to gain favor with God - but it must be stressed that works are not the absence of sin, but the death of trying to perfect yourself in the flesh after having begun in the spirit. Dead works are those that a man finds himself trying to perform once born again, in the futile effort to gain more favor than has been bestowed on Him through the finished work of Jesus. The work of Jesus on the cross, and the merit of His shed blood is perfect in the sight of God, it is the only value and merit we can lay claim to before the Father.

But this does not dupe the Father. He does not become blind or look away from obedience or disobedience. Jesus made plain the supreme act of love is obeying His commands - albeit through His indwelling by the Spirit and the enablement this gives to the believer by faith. It is sola gratia via sola fide, to both believe and obey. To obey one must believe, and to believe one must obey - and God is always previous. You cannot separate these things chronologically without falling into error on not just one side, but all sides.

God requires honesty before Him on our part - a putting away of hypocrisy and an acknowledgment of our true state, no matter what we think we should be, do or say. This honesty and casting away of all pretense is the practical meaning of walking in the light, and it's this brutal honesty that leads a man to come to, and do the truth. Jesus made this plain, "all those who do the truth, come to the light" - because when all things are exposed there is nothing to hide - no hypocrisy.

Reality in our lives is the issue - light. Walking in truth and light before God and men.

Neither side of this issue seems to afford much light on the truth of the matters being discussed, because it seems to me both sides are steeped in unreality. One is sinless by proxy, the other has reality lost in the dry interpretation of scripture that removes the reality of the living Jesus.

Maybe the "both and" I was trying to encourage earlier is that the both sides are missing it here.

It seems one side has thought to dupe the God who knows the words we speak before they are even on our tongues; the other side reacts to this view by saying, well, not much of anything at all other than the view they are opposing is wrong.

I could be wrong, but it seems that both sides are based in a view that is completely lacking the omniscient and omnipresent living person of Jesus.

/Neither side of this issue seems to afford much light on the truth of the matters being discussed, because it seems to me both sides are steeped in unreality. One is sinless by proxy, the other has reality lost in the dry interpretation of scripture that removes the reality of the living Jesus./

This is a good example of being limited by viral space instead of being able to address one another in person.

/the other has reality lost in the dry interpretation of scripture that removes the reality of the living Jesus./

This is your own assumption and again, stems from not being able to have face to face conversations so as to know where the other person is really coming from.

You're cluelss if it's me you are referring to. Or others who have suggested going to scripture for the answers to check out statements like when I sin God does not see these sins because these sins simply just don't exist. And the like.

/Maybe the "both and" I was trying to encourage earlier is that the both sides are missing it here./

Well, if that be true and it remains to be seen if it is so, the side you are articulating has missed it also.

/I could be wrong, but it seems that both sides are based in a view that is completely lacking the omniscient and omnipresent living person of Jesus./

Well, you are wrong and seem pridefully clueless. And very highly over presumptive. You may think you have discerned others correctly who have suggested a scriptural analysis of this conversation but you haven't. You couldn't stay your hand though and wait a bit and place your thoughts before God for review and clarity. You had to respond and you did so incorrectly. I know that compulsion. It has revealed my pride and my wrongful assumptions many times.

Meanwhile, bless you IH. I'll be glad to discuss any thing you may want to go over and get to know you in greater depth. As I said before, some of your statements are troubling in my opinion and would trouble many. May the Lord be with you.

Bless you Eschaible.

It seems to me that, when there are polar opposite viewpoints on a theological matter such as this one, and when each side has proof texts, then perhaps two things are happening.

Perhaps we are reading the proof texts out of context in an effort to support out point of view. And, in reality, these passages compliment one another to bring out a truth that neither side is considering.

The New Testament is clear that we have been declared righteous. It is clear that we, as born again believers, are new creatures, have the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit, and have God's righteousness, through Christ, imputed to us.

What I don't find clearly taught is that we had a "sin nature" or that we now have a "new sinless nature". These things are inferred from what is written. What I do see clearly taught is that I was dead in trespasses and sin, having inherited that fallen state from Adam. As a result I was, by nature of my fallen state, destined for the wrath of God. But Jesus, from before the foundation of the world, was to be born incarnate for the purpose of atoning for our sins. His payment opened the door for us to have His righteousness imputed to us so that we are now in right relationship with God. I also find it clearly stated in 1 John that His atonement for sin was on sacrifice that now advocates for my righteousness, even when I do sin.

Sin is still against God. Sin is still violation of God's law. Even sin against a human brother violates the law and the character of God.

Scripture tells us that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, ever living to make intercession for us. That verse used to be a little confusing to me. I somehow pictured Jesus praying for my needs to the Father. But it finally dawned on me what is going on.

Under the old covenant, there were sacrifices made every year for sins. But Jesus is the once and for all sacrifice. He not only offered the sacrifice, but rose again to forever be our high priest. That sacrifice continues to be "offered" perpetually until we are glorified. Every time I sin, the presence of Jesus at the right hand of the Father speaks for me and says, "Travis is declared righteous through my blood. He died with me, was buried with me, and was resurrected to new life (Rom 6). My sin is just as offensive to the Father as it ever was. If I sin, I sin against Him and the law judges me guilty. But I have been freed from the condemnation of the Law through the blood of Jesus.

These things the Bible states very clearly. I think if we stand on that, then we can reach out and grab the statements that seem to be on one side or the other and better understand them.

A few comments:

1. Perhaps there is a confusion, misunderstanding or miscommunication of the difference between being "accepted" by God, being "approved" by God and being "pleasing" to God.
There most definitely is an abundance of Scripture about how we should seek ( not in our own strength but certainly by our renewed desires and "effort" to please our Father as our Father). Likewise, if we shrink back, we can displease Him even to bad consequence (Hebrews 10).

2. We can definitely grieve God. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit.

3. We can most defiinitely sin against God as His patience and kindness is meant to lead us to Godly sorrow for rebellion against Him and repentance.

4. We did have a sinful nature taught in Scripture. I could supply the verse, but look up "nature". We "were by nature" sons of disobedience. We are called and recreated to share in the "divine nature" 2 Peter 1.

Can we sin against God, even rebel against Him, as born again Christians. Of course. All sin against God is rebellion. Again an abundance of Scripture.

I am thoroughly discouraged that each and every point that I've pulled out of inarguable Scripture is somehow in dispute. Maybe I'm totally confused and the arguments being set forth are above my pay grade. You'd have to start carving your Bible into pieces to avoid the obvious as far as plain meaning goes.

As for seeking to please God by our own strength, that is a fools errand as Evan points out. Worse, it is literally a dead end. But spiritual faith in the promises and power of God begets transformation and begets spiritual life. The only thing that pleases God is Faith Working through Love, and all of necessity in order to be pleasing, supplied by God. But we still work out that supply. And seeking to please our Father should never be a burden but our own eternal pleasure and we should be rightly disappointed in ourselves when the suffering of Christ for the direct undeniable purpose that we could be obedient children to the Father, pleasing Him in every aspect of our life as it brings Him glory upon glory is a worthy reward of His suffering .

And though my wording may not depict it well, I'm not teaching or teaching down to others. I'm just responding to statements and overlaying them against Scripture verses that shout out clearly.

//I know that I have not sinned against God in the last twenty years because it impossible for me to do so. He cannot be offended by anything I say or do because he does not see what I say or do. He only sees me through the veil of Christ in which I am hidden behind. I cannot sin against God because the ME who was a sinner for the past 20 years has not been noticed by God. My sins have had no effect upon God since I was placed in Christ because those sins just don’t exist. He doesn’t see them. He can’t be hurt or angered by them. My sins do not cause him any grief because he is completely unaware of them. All he sees when he looks upon me is a man who is doing his will, and he delights in me as a result. And now, because I am finally starting to understand this truth of being hid in Christ, the sins I commit that God does not see are beginning to fully fade away. I only sinned because I misunderstood the heart of God. I only sinned because I was afraid of God. But now that I no longer have a fear of disappointing God, the sins that were inspired by that fear are fading away for good.//

Holy mackerel.

Ah! I think I know the source of this.

I was watching a secular psychologist/psychiatrist last year on YouTube who said that he had the solution to mans' problems. I know, I should have made a note of it but I did not take too much notice of it at the time. But I think I see the connection now, which means it is getting into the church.

What he said was, that mankind would get over its' psychological problems if they would just have a better opinion of themselves. I think he blamed religion for this. In effect, it was to get rid of the idea of sin. Basically humanism which says that man is basically good, and if he was provided with his basic needs, he would be 'perfect'.

In Christian terms this means searing the conscience. The man said that the relief when hearing this new philosophy is tremendous.

I think the problem is that the west is open to this development because of its faulty idea of sin which is not the same as that of the early church. Protestantism especially sees mankind as standing in a criminal court and tried and found guilty. The early church said that man is psychologically sick and needs the healing that comes from Christ translating him into the perfection he was made for or Theosis and the job of that is the church.

That does not stop man being responsible for being in the sin state as it means that when the Holy Spirit begins His work in the young child, after the fall as in Adam, the person is quenching that work.

It is much easier in the west because the Divine Liturgy is full of this teaching and scripture from start to finish to teach the children this where secularization has not so far been so powerful. It is not happening in the west.

Our children have been brainwashed for a long time so they will accept this new idea.

Dear Jason, you are not being judged. I accept that you want to be a joy to your heavenly Father, but this is a 'new' thing but the Bible says there is nothing new under the sun. It sounds good because it is coming imo from the angel of light.

We are so rotten inside from our sickness, and some if due to the downfall of the west especially in the west and it is not scriptural. There is only the guidance of the Holy Spirit, confirmed by Scripture but not replaced by it, who will lead us to life. This teaching is from the tree of knowledge.

IH,

I fully understand what you are saying in that most recent post. It is very similar to what is contained in a few books written by Norman Grubb, except he stops short of saying God does not see us any longer.

I think the biggest issue here is articulation. You've had a deep revelation of the futility of works, and the love of God - sometimes Jesus advice to keep it to ourselves for awhile is good advice.

Knowing something is different than understanding it. We can know in our spirit something is true, and still lack the understanding to articulate it to others, and sometimes even ourselves. This is where the Holy Spirit will lead us into a fuller understanding, and I would say seek the Lord for a better understanding of these truths.

God is not a mechanic or proposition that can just have his eyes covered up, or tally certain amounts of sin and which sin it is until he casts you away (depending on which polarity you find yourself).

This is why I mentioned the reality of God before - I think to many people take this for granted and never ponder it in their mental gymnastics and systematizing.

These polar extremes would be avoided if we knew the God we are seeking to explain.

But as DocS (David) pointed out rather eloquently, I do tend to be rather, well all of the things he said, so it goes without saying to take my words and anyone else's straight to the living God and His book for confirmation.

One thing IH. In all your posts, from beginning to end, you have not referred to any scripture even once. As you are probably familiar with, the scriptures are given for doctrine, reproof, correction, and INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS (II Tim 3:16). Just by way of friendly reminder and exhortation, I believe it would help you to at least attempt to back your beliefs with corresponding scripture.

When you sin you said God doesn't see these sins because these sins just simply don't exist. Can you provide scripture for this and your other common points?

Thank you.

Well he actually said they don’t exist to God, which would mean there are objective facts God does not know. Not sure how that works.

Complete IH:

I have had many times in my life when I was very excited about something that I thought was sound scripturally. I had great joy in my heart over my revelation. But when the revelation was exposed to others who could test it, I found that my revelation was not quite so complete as I thought it was.

This process of being checked by others will not, nor should it, cease until I lay this body down one day. I am not God, and I am not infallible. I WILL be wrong in my understanding from time to time.

But this is why discussing things with people who might not agree with you is a valuable exercise. For example, your revelation was that a person, once hidden in Christ, cannot sin against God. And there are some scriptures which, upon cursory reading, make this a somewhat plausible idea. For example, 1Jn_3:9  "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." If this verse stood alone on an island, I might be tempted to agree with you. The problem is that this verse does not stand alone. It stands alongside everything else John wrote, everything the other Apostles wrote, and everything Jesus taught.

This is the Achilles heel of an open forum like this. We react to what one another says in isolation. If you could go back to all of my posts on this forum, you would notice something. I have been accused of saying things that I, myself, refuted in other posts because we read into what one another is saying. And this because we are saying it in isolation. You would also notice that I have shifted my stance slightly on a number of issues as I realize that my understanding was not quite right.

So, maybe a slight adjustment is in order. You have a partial truth that, in my opinion, has been taken beyond its limit. I have been declared righteous. PRAISE GOD! My sins are no longer being charged to my account. Rom_4:8  "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Because of Christ's righteousness being imputed to me, God receives me as His son, and His friend. The enmity of the law is gone. This is indeed good news. When I do sin, it does not cause me to lose my relationship with God. I hear this truth and its impact on your life coming through loud and clear in your posts. Its just that your doctrine on righteousness is very unorthodox and, honestly, violates some pretty clear scripture.

But if everyone on this forum would be honest, this has happened to ALL of us. If there is one of us who has not had to adjust our understanding of scripture, I will show you a person who is either lying, or is still stubbornly sticking to error.

You have a fantastic, personal revelation of the love of God for you. I just don't agree with your understanding of scripture in the matter, and I think some of what you are saying violates some very clear teaching of scripture.

Chose to Delete this Post for Now. Sorry. Hopefully I did so before someone responded to it.

I think I got to it first. But I hope you will read my response.

Thank you twayneb. Sound wisdom said in the right manner.

IH, I agree that you have had a fantastic revelation of the love of God for you. No doubt. It takes away a lot of performance orientation trying to please and look good before God and others. It's just some of the ways you have said things may need another look at.

If I may, I can suggest Hebrews 10:14 as a good starting point along with II Cor 5:21 of course. And there are a host of other scriptures that give a fuller context and meaning to those two verses. The total witness of all scripture on a certain point is what we try and ascertain and understand.

Thanks.

Oh, how I wish I could convey to you the beauty of this thing I am writing about.

Please don't give up dear Complete-IH!

For me, it would be helpful if you are able to practically give me a further glimpse into your everyday life, if you are comfortable being that vulnerable.

For example, are you married, do you have children? Or do you have a job where you interact with other human beings on a regular basis?

The reason I ask about your personal relationships with other human beings (day in and day out, in person) is because at least for me, those have proven to be the most tangible crucibles of the faith, where so much refinement and clarification about the realities of the indwelling Spirit of Christ gets worked out.

What I'm getting at, is an inquiry into the practical outworking of this sinlessness that you describe.

Maybe I should ask about your relationships from another perspective. For example, is it possible that someone who knows you in real life might say "yes, you still sin", to which you could admit why they see it that way?

But at the same time, based on the revelation that you have received from God, He Himself does not regard it as sin, because of your relationship to God in Christ Jesus?

So you are NOT saying "I am perfect and never sin", but rather that you do not sin on purpose, and that when you do sin (unintentionally?) that God does not regard it as sin, nor does he hold it against you as sin?

I know you said in another post that you do not claim the work is complete, but that you are further along then it was 7 years ago.

Thanks for bearing with my questioning. I completely understand if you would rather not open up about more personal details of relationships with others in your life, but I'm asking from a desire to glean more insight into your journey.

It is also refreshing how you are humbly engaging with the saints here, in spite of the tremendous amount of exhortations coming against you (I appreciate you giving everyone the benefit of good intentions).

Complete

In the hopes of clearing up any misunderstandings, it is not part one of what you have shared which is indeed beautiful and life changing, and I came to it myself when I saw that l had been trying in the flesh to please God but it was worthless. He loved me for who l am not what I achieved for Him.

It brought me down to the dust in thankfulness and repentance to think so little of Him.

It is the second part which frankly scares those that read it. It is saying that because of this very blessed revelation, you no longer need the Holy Spirit to convict you of sin and that is way out brother. It is deception and I for one hate to see a brother taken in.

Amen Brenda. I feel similarly.

These truths are precious spiritual knowledge, and it's an intuitive knowing that sometimes goes beyond our understanding. Scripture, the Holy Spirit and patience are the keys - and the Holy Spirit is faithful to guide us into all truth, with no need for any man to teach us, or tell us "know the Lord".

I believe we could all benefit from a prayerful reevaluation of our understandings, with full intellectual submission to the Spirit and a willingness to forsake creeds and prejudices. Its only then that the Holy Spirit will truly do His work, when we are authentic and open to the possibility of error - He is the Spirit of Truth, first and foremost.

In a separate thread, Evan and IH are discussing "Christ in You" and "You in Christ". The reason the Father loves you or me is because we are in Christ and Christ is in us. Jesus said exactly this in John 17. He prayed acknowledging that we are in Him and He is in us and based on that, He prays the Father that He would love us with the same love He has for Jesus. PTL !!

The separate question is how do we remain "in Christ" and likewise, how do we remain in His great love. John 15 answers that question. By our obedience to the word of Christ, especially that we love the brethern. IF we don't have that word in us and love flowing out of us, we will not remain in His love. In the positive, as we draw nearer and nearer to God by pursuing real love motivated and Spirit trained righteousness, we draw nearer to fuller and deeper experiences of that great inexhaustible, and "unknowable by knowledge", love He has for Jesus and consequently for us. It just isn't true in John 15, Jude tells us to direct ourselves into the love of God by our righteous obedience.

This is why the discussion of sin of the believer and how God loves us is important, maybe critically. Practicing and becoming righteous isn't a way to gain God's love for those in Christ, it's just a way, if we don't pursue it, that we can lose it and likewise, in pursuit of it, we grow in deeper experience of His love.

John 15, 1 John, Hebrews, Philippians, Hebrews, 2 Peter 1, and the letters to the churches in Revelation make this very clear.

Some may struggle with receiving God's love that is not based on anything other than the truth that the Father singularly loves us because HE loves the Son we are in and the Son who is in us. Yet, there are multitudes who falsely believe that He loves me no matter what. Most of the NT Scriptures about not presuming on God's love by walking outside the light, by not fleeing sin and pursuing personal righteousness, are largely reduced to an opt in or opt out kind of walk as a Christian. Big problem in the broader landscape.

I'm going to reply to my own post so I don't feel alone :).

The verse that occurred to me after my posting is from John 14 where Jesus said very directly and clearly to His closest friends, ministry partenrs and brethern that if they love Him ( because He first loved them), then they will obey His commands and then, the Father would love them and He would love them and He would manifest or reveal Himself to them in greater degrees( a strange statement to make to them as He had been with them daily). This verse alone has to be taken into account in a serious way not as a threat but as an incentive to have more of Jesus in spiritual revelation of love and glory to the soul.

And just to show the consistency of this truth and it's essential and critical application to His people, here is God speaking the same exact truth in the Ten Commandments which have been put on steroids in the New Covenant because of the gift of Christ to the heart and in the heart by the Spirit.

but showing faithful love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commands -- Exodus 20:6 (CSB)

Amen Robert, your post is along the same lines as my thinking.

""I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”” (John 17:20-26)

This and John 15 are some of Jesus most profound teaching.

"If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.” (John 15:10)

Interestingly, and something I hear very little about, is that Jesus is directly comparing His abiding in the Fathers love via obedience to our abiding in Him via obedience, and as we saw in chapter 17, our consequently abiding in the Father. We abide in the Fathers love via obedience to Jesus and abiding in His love - and His abiding in us makes this all possible, apart from Him we can do nothing.

(EDIT: one point to consider here as well is obedience to Jesus has nothing to do with sin. If we are focused on Jesus and following Him in single eyed obedience, sin becomes a non issue. If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of flesh, but exhibit the fruits of the Spirit, something that is largely overshadowed by the gifts of the Spirit these days. This is where the indwelling of Jesus comes into view, as it is His indwelling by His Spirit that we walk and obey. The positive life of obedience replaces the negative life of sin avoidance.)

The crux of it is that we are graft in by faith, and when we are in obedient abiding, we are enabled to remain via faith.

The servant is not above his Master - and Jesus gave the perfect example of what restful obedience looks like in a human life. Faith leads to obedience and obedience back to faith. You cannot obey without believing, and you cannot believe without obeying. If you do not believe, obedience is impossible. If you do not obey, you will never be a position where faith is possible - and as I said in a previous post, these are chronologically identical.

The sin of Israel addressed by Jeremiah the prophet is said to stem from "forgetting God", and God simply asked Israel to remember Him, repent, and He would heal their faithlessness - meaning when they repent and remember the Lord, He would again grant them the faith to continue to obey.

To abide is to obey - if you love me, you will keep my commandments and they are not grievous - because the Lord has worked in the obedient believer both to will and to do of His good pleasure, we are pleased to please the Lord.

Agreed Evan, we are called to pursue ( flee after) righteousness and if we are so fleeing we can be drawn by love in a closer abiding. It would be risky though not to also flee from sin and the idle things of life that would weigh us down. Alertness to such things helps us flee to Christ. Likewise, not presuming on the past and recognizing the trap of not moving forward in the race is very important. That's why Paul said I discipline my body (and spirit) constantly so that having preached to others, I myself might not be disqualified. If anyone knew how to abide in Christ on a daily basis for all his needs and desires to know Him, then we would be presumptuous if not foolish not to do as he did. As you say, Christ likewise was very careful to abide in the Father's love and not be weighed down with the cares of this life which is an astounding concept.

God does not love me because I am righteous - I am righteous because he loves me.

I think most are missing the hole point.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 4:9-10 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

God’s love is so great that we, as mere humans, cannot fully understand it. Humans’ love for one another often depends at least partly on the behaviour of the person being loved.

God’s love for us does not.

I am righteous because he loves me, he sent his Son and paid the price for our sins.

His Love for us is not based on our performance, that is the Old Covenant. If you do this, this and this, you’ll get this this and this.

I read this and totally confused - Faith leads to obedience and obedience back to faith. You cannot obey without believing, and you cannot believe without obeying. If you do not believe, obedience is impossible. If you do not obey, you will never be a position where faith is possible.

After I read it and thought about it, that’s the Old Covenant.

Then to prove what I had concluded this statement.

The sin of Israel addressed by Jeremiah the prophet is said to stem from "forgetting God", and God simply asked Israel to remember Him, repent, and He would heal their faithlessness - meaning when they repent and remember the Lord, He would again grant them the faith to continue to obey.

It seems we have forgotten the New Covenant promises of God, we should just believe, what he has said.

I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Ezekiel 36:27

Nothing that we have done, just a promise from him sealed with the blood of his Son, that he will do it.

Far better than this dancing from stone to stone "faith leads to obedience” "obedience back to faith” "You cannot obey without believing” ‘cannot believe without obeying” "If you do not believe” "obedience is impossible” "If you do not obey” "you will never be a position where faith is possible”

He loves me, and will cause me to walk in His statutes, and I will keep His judgments, and do them.

"He loves me, and will cause me to walk in His statutes, and I will keep His judgments, and do them." Amen Colin.

This is the enlightenment that comes from the Father to those who have struggled in the flesh even pious flesh. Flesh nonetheless, and it will always be tainted with self even in the minutest part.

The end of that is the Illumination the early church fathers spoke of, in the stage before entire sanctification, deification or Theosis:

"So ultimately purification, illumination, deification””it’s not the pursuit of enlightenment; it’s the pursuit of love: the love of God. It is the pursuit of a spiritual marriage, loving and receiving love. It is the marriage-feast, love being the wine that’s set forth on God’s table. In the deified man, it’s the man who is bathed in the light of God’s love to the point that it radiates from him"

https://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/orthodox_spirituality/
our_fulfillment_in_christ

But once we reach the ultimate of entire sanctification, how do we remain, we who are prone to wander? This question drove me nearly to despair until the ECF's came to my rescue and told me that it is part of our training to lose the blessing and regain it a number of times, and John Wesley spoke of this. It is the 'going out and going in' of the pillars of the temple that eventually remain as we reach the full stature.

As I have mentioned though, I see another spirit entering into this divine pathway which says that we can no longer be moved, we will never sin again. No man can ever say that and we can see in scripture that great men of God like the Apostle Peter, fell from grace and was restored by his friend Paul.

I discern that this other spirit is taking the place of Christ in His temple though, our spirits, and therefore the spirit of anti-Christ as men are searching for this truth in these latter times, but at the point of fulfillment, takes the throne room and makes men think that they cannot be touched anymore by the death of the tree of knowledge. Perhaps we are looking at the Great Deception. No matter how high man goes, he is always at risk of leaning again on his own understanding and therefore trusting in the flesh which will cause him to fall like Adam.

Brothers I am not wanting to brag about my spiritual understanding as it was gained through severe suffering. Even just the suicide of an adult child is enough to ruin the life of a lot of people, and that is just a glimmer of what I have been though.

But the Lord has brought me to a place where I am more than a conqueror and the enemy can no longer easily fool me. I say that with trembling. So I pour my love out to our dear brother whose only desire was to serve God with his whole heart soul and mind and is now unable to even bear scripture.

Dear IH

I feel I have to say one more thing before you leave the subject, and as a plea to you as I am not of the camp that says man cannot stop sinning in this life, if you have not gathered yet. It is honorable that you wanted to be clear and spend time enlarging on your position. For now, you are sounding like you are respecting God. For now that is. But there is something that stands out for me like a red flag, apart from you saying that you will never sin again, and it is your reply to my question:

3) What if a non believer hears you say that you do not sin but witnesses various sins in you?

Your (lack of) answer gave no indication at all that you understood the point of the question as regarding the damage you would do to the cause of Christ and the integrity of the church if you showed to an unbeliever sins when you claimed not to have any. In fact on hearing your claims, they would probably try to trick you into sinning even if they are none and they saw none.

If you are dead to the convictions of the Holy Spirit when you fall, which is pretty much guaranteed if you are sinless, even Peter or Paul fell as recorded, you will be in a sorry state and a huge burden to the church, bringing disrespect.

I can only hope that you will be open to God's voice.

Robert said:
"we are called to pursue ( flee after) righteousness and if we are so fleeing we can be drawn by love in a closer abiding. It would be risky though not to also flee from sin and the idle things of life that would weigh us down. Alertness to such things helps us flee to Christ."

Amen. I don't mean to subtract this from my views, just to emphasize the obedience, as the obedience to Jesus will automatically act as a fleeing from sin, the cares of this world, and this present world system - and with Jesus as our object of affection, we will be changed into that image.

IH said:
"And for what it is worth, I am fairly certain that this is what it means to truly be Holy. Those who are still ignorant believe that to be Holy means to be FALSE. Most equate "holiness” with PRETENDING. I on the other hand am extremely confident that being HOLY means being real and honest. This is the TRUTH that God so strongly desires of his creation. We do not become impure by living honestly; we become impure when we pretend to be something other than the person God created. Animals are always pure because they do not know how to pretend. An animal can be nothing but the creature that God created. Humans on the other hand have to learn how to be pure. God has to teach us that we are fearfully and wonderfully made so that we can become fully confident to walk without carefulness.

This has been the work that God has been doing in my life these past many years. He is slowly but surely teaching me to be holy and pure as I become confident in his workmanship."

Amen to this - and we are created new when we are born again. This I believe is the disconnect between views.

It's like I have pointed out as nauseum in other threads - the true genuine new birth is lacking in the world today, and the "little flock" is smaller than it has ever been. God works in us to will, and to do His good pleasure - and a truly born again believer can truly say, "I am a Christian and I do as I please" - because his will and desires are aligned to God, as God has recreated Him new in Jesus. This is dependent on our abiding in Jesus, and Jesus Himself made this abundantly clear.

This is why I think articulation is the issue - and why I do hope we can discuss this in the other thread.

I understand your sentiment and the seeming wisdom in your words. However, these words that seem so wise and logical to you seem like foolishness to me. I am not calling you foolish, I am just saying how they sound to me. And the reason they sound foolish to me is because (as I said in my last post - the one I used to replace my deleted post) I am 100 percent convinced as to who taught me. And this conviction does not leave room for reconsideration because random men on a web forum told me to reconsider.

Now, I hope you can see my point. I am not trying to convince you that anything I say or written is true, nor am I trying to convince you to believe that I have been taught by God. The only thing I am trying to convince you of is the fact that I am 100 percent convinced of who it was that taught me. And it is this conviction that prevents me from taking any rebukes to heart.

Could I be crazy, and under a strong delusion? Yes, I suppose. However, that delusion is very real and because it is real it cannot be penetrated with any argument one is going to give me on a web forum. Does that make sense?

I hear what you are saying. Let me put it this way. I think we would both agree that Mormonism is not of God, totally false. A consistently practicing Mormon will explain that the words of Joseph Smith are at least equal to if not above the Bible. You will object and you will get this reply. "Pray and ask God. See if the spirit does not give you a burning in your bosom, an inner witness that what I am saying is true." You see, the Mormon is totally convinced because "God" told him and he had a strong inner witness.

We cannot always trust what we think God is telling us. We have the capacity to miss it, to earnestly think God showed us something when He did not. I have done this. I think all believers have done this. What we can trust, 100% of the time is the written word of God. We might not always understand it correctly, but we can trust it. This is why bouncing things off of other believers is so critical. It opens us up to seeing scripture through their eyes. We can then begin to dig deeper into scripture and have our own understanding corrected if it needs to be.

I am just curious. Can you give a solid, Biblical argument for what you are believing? What if scripture were to disagree with what God told you. Which would you choose to listen to?

It is obvious that you love the Lord. It is obvious that you have a revelation of being made righteous. This revelation has to come to us. It is important. But are you sure you have not gone beyond scripture and how do you know that you have not? Just some things to consider.

Quote: Brothers I am not wanting to brag about my spiritual understanding as it was gained through severe suffering. Even just the suicide of an adult child is enough to ruin the life of a lot of people, and that is just a glimmer of what I have been though.

When I left the church, it was not a mere whim, but with much prayer but on the day that I walked out knowing That I will go back. I prayed and let the Father know that was me, I had enough.

However I told him that I still believe the call on my life and believed that he would it - but I didn't know how he would. The Spirit of God in spoke "You'll be like Job".

I don't say these things to boast but to help others, who may be going through these things. A few years later while I was in Africa I came out in boils and I remembered the words I heard. "You'll be like Job"

I went into period of fasting and prayer after that time, it was at that time the teaching that man could be Holy, pure and clean. For a month all I could was weep, it was there in that brokenness.

Quote: Flesh nonetheless, and it will always be tainted with self even in the minutest part.

I became aware of my condition even after being born again, that there was Sin down to the very core of my being, it is so entangled with my being.

Since then I have lost all the money that I had, twice and one of my children. The Spirit of God was right "You'll be like Job".

I cannot describe the pain and I don't want to share it here, but there I reached out to God in my brokenness, I have started attending church again, that was around a year ago.

8 months ago I also started to attend a Holiness meetings online, something they said at the start stuck out. You must come to the place of being nothing. At the start I pushed back on that thought, but I read the scripture.

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5

So I stuck with it, two months later I began to be aware of the calling on my life once again. This had an effect that I was not prepared for as I contemplated my condition and the call of a Holy God. In prayer I would cry out saying "I can do it" "I can't speak" "I know what I am", I will make a mess of it. This thought progressed to the point that I declared from mouth in prayer "I am nothing" you must do it.

It was there I got hold of a book "the new testament revealed" in it David Wilkerson describes his journey into nothingness. He says;

"It was while I was down in the depths of Nothingness that God unveiled to me the meaning of the Cross".

It was there it started with me, as I was reading his book God started to reveal the New Covenant to me. Oh the Joy that has come on me, the weight I had been carrying has lifted, I saw that he has promised to do it.

The New Covenant is all about God's commitment to keep his children, from falling, to console, comfort assure us that the power and dominion of sin can be and will broken by the Holy Spirit who indwells us.

So I now look to the Father, to keep his promise that he will do it. I am content to be nothing, I am full of joy for him to be everything. I wait as I stand on the promise that he will give me the promised Spirit, which has come through the death of his Son.

How deep the Father’s love for us,
How vast beyond all measure,
That He should give His only Son
To make a wretch His treasure.

I will not boast in anything,
No gifts, no power, no wisdom;
But I will boast in Jesus Christ,
His death and resurrection.

Colin thank you for that testimony, it is certainly of some comfort to hear of others who have been/are going through the 'stripping' in order for the Lord to pour His blessings upon them, even though the blessings may not be of this world.

I first heard of it from Jesse Penn-Lewis of the Welsh revivals and she said that some of us are only to be like wild violets, hidden from sight, ignored and often scorned by the world, but with the eyes of God on us, to whom we bring great joy and pleasure, to be content to just exist in His garden for His satisfaction, where the world neither understands nor appreciates their wisdom.

It gives great joy and peace to be nothing in Him. If you don't mind I will quote that wonderful hymn by Stuart Townsend in full as I sing it to myself:

How deep the Father’s love for us,
How vast beyond all measure,
That He should give His only Son
To make a wretch His treasure.
How great the pain of searing loss ”“
The Father turns His face away,
As wounds which mar the Chosen One
Bring many sons to glory.

Behold the man upon a cross,
My sin upon His shoulders;
Ashamed, I hear my mocking voice
Call out among the scoffers.
It was my sin that held Him there
Until it was accomplished;
His dying breath has brought me life ”“
I know that it is finished.

I will not boast in anything,
No gifts, no power, no wisdom;
But I will boast in Jesus Christ,
His death and resurrection.
Why should I gain from His reward?
I cannot give an answer;
But this I know with all my heart ”“
His wounds have paid my ransom.

Bless you brother. I have been seeing just how amazing His grace to me has been, in living the overcomer life.

"The New Covenant is all about God's commitment to keep his children, from falling, to console, comfort assure us that the power and dominion of sin can be and will broken by the Holy Spirit who indwells us. So I now look to the Father, to keep his promise that he will do it." Amen