Nothingness

Hi just want to let you guys know, hopefully it maybe a benefit to some.

Around 8 months ago I started attending online meetings for those seeking holiness. There are three guys and a woman who are helping those who are seeking others into the deeper work of the Spirit.

Something they said when I first attended and it annoyed me, it was you need to get to the place of being "nothing".

So I looked up a scripture about being nothing.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing. John 15:5.

Okay I said to myself, let see where it goes from here.

6 months ago I became aware of the call of God on my life, it started during a Prayer for Scotland prayer meeting, I was overwhelmed with the desire to serve him and do his will all I could do was to sob and weep with so many tears flowing down my face it left my jeans sodden.

I don't know what the Church of Scotland Minister's that were at the meeting thought, but if God moves on you what can you do.

But how can I serve him in this ungodly condition, how can I serve my God, in this condition? As I sought him, seeking him I came to the point in prayer where I said, I can’t do it!

This thought has progressed to the point where I say in prayer, I have nothing to offer, I can’t do it, I will just make a mess of it and it eventually led me to say, I hopeless wretch. How can I preach and tell others about Victorious life when I am defeated.

I am nothing!

During the same time one of the guys said you need to look at the New Covenant and see the promises in it.

Around the same time I was listening to a Cater Conlon video message and he describes a time where he hit a wall in and sought God. Out of that message he went onto preach at message in times square church about it. David Wilkerson heard the message and look into it and wrote a book called "The New Covenant Unveiled"

So I ordered the book, because I want to find out more about the New Covenant and all the promises in it.

David describes a time in his life, where he came to the place of Nothingness. He says "It was while I was down in the Depth on Nothingness that God unveiled to me the meaning of the cross".

The cross is the place of helplessness, Father I have nothing to offer, I can't do it, I am hopeless, a unclean vessel compared to a Holy God, I need you, as I would just make as mess of the calling. Nothingness where no man can help.

Then the scripture started to pop.

I stumbled across the verse - 2 Cor 12:11

I have become a fool in boasting. You have compelled me, for I ought to have been commended by you, for I am in no way inferior to the leading apostles, though I am nothing.

He was not inferior to the leading apostles - although he is nothing.

David's cry in Psalm 16:2

I said to the LORD, "Thou art my Lord; I have no good besides Thee.”

David declares he a was no good, he is saying that without God he is nothing.

These men had come to the same point as me...

Then hope came, in the Book "The New Covenant Unveiled" I read about the New Covenant, I see the New Covenant the promise.

I see it like; I have never seen it.

Ezekiel 36:25-27.

- I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you will be clean.
- I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all
your idols.
- I will give you a new heart.
- I will give you a new Spirit.
- I will give you a heart of flesh.
- I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My
statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

The new covenant and the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.

Gods has made an oath - "I will"

No one in his own strength has the power to live the overcoming life, free from Sin's power and dominion. You may grieve and shed rivers of tears - but with your will power and ability you cannot beat powerful Sin.

This where I am at ”“ I will believe and pray the New Covenant, I will believe that he alone can deliver me from every chain that binds, I believe he will convict me, lead me and empower me to overcome, believe that he causes me to obey his word and that he will never depart from me. I won’t limit the Spirit in me, I will wait on him, call on him and trust on him for I want to be Holy.

He alone can do it and he has promised "I will"

Brother I believe in a form of entire sanctification and perfection.

But at the same time don't wait to become perfect to go into ministry or do the work of the Lord if you feel he's called you to do that.

Tell people about the freedom that you have received and what he has done for you and how much sin he has set you free you from,

Minister from where you are in your walk with God unlessyou have obvious blatant sins that your practicing and rebellion that you know you shouldn't be living in like fornication adultery ectra.

I think even for fivefold ministers like the apostles on the day of Pentecost when they first started to minister in the power of the spirit had a lot of growing up to do still and there would have been still things in their heart that God was working on.

So part of the strength that you'll get to walk in holiness and to receive perfection will be through doing some ministry because it will be doing ministry whether it's feeding and helping the poor and praying for those on the street and sharing the gospel or whether it's exhorting and encouraging one another daily
Like the writer in Hebrews tells us to.

Weather It's using our gifts according to the measure of faith through the commands of the apostle Paul to the church and how we should function and edify one another.

Encourage and build up your brothers in Christ that is the ministry we all have.

It will also keep us out of idleness and in a place where temptation can come into our hearts and influence us.

We Are Coming into the era of the ministry of the Saints and the ministry of the body of Christ where the body of Christ apart from the fivefold ministry will be raised up to function in anointing's and graces that have been given through the holy spirit by the five fold ministers.

We don't need to take on a mantle of a prophet or take on the mantle of apostle unless God of course has called you into that.

You will be led into fellowship and congregation and He will mantle you and you'll be recognized amongst the other ministers as having that mantle but until that happens do the ministry of the Saints if you feel called to evangelism do it because God works through vessels that are not mature and who still have imperfections .☺️✝️🙏✝️

Brother Colin, I know our heavenly Father works outside of us and within our individual circumstances differently as you very well know through what we see concerning our beloved prophets and apostles in our Father's precious Word! They were all different! He doesn't do cookie cutter children! This is why we need Spirit filled shepherds. The flowers are not all the same in Gods precious garden, they are varied, and He builds us each differently, with the result being Christ likeness! You keep looking to Christ, rebuke the demon of discouragement, and any other demons the Holy Spirit reveals to you in Jesus' name, that are attacking you through your thoughts brother! Our spiritual enemies are ever present, but you like Gideon gird your loins and keep pressing forward, repent, trust, and depend on our grace given through Christ, on the very life of Christ within you and you will receive your burning bush in the shape our Lord choses within your life! That bush varies from child to child. Love you through Christ brother! Keep the faith! Alot of times it is the spiritual battle stalling God's children from their advancement through Christ, Father's teaching us! Unfortunately, the spiritual side is little known, but God will teach! We must look past the physical into the spiritual through His Spirit. Brother Gary Amen, if God has called us, let us not shrink back but move forward through Him. God is the one who calls, prepares, and anoints through Christ and His Holy Spirit, least any man should boast! It is a work of God through and through. Let His Spirit lead you! Become the flower He choose you to be and blossom forth in that beautiful flower He creates, nurtures and grows, for His purposes, His glory, and His praise alone. Unless a seed die, it will never bring forth life.

BrotherGary

Thank you for concern; I am sharing this to help others.

What I am experiencing is a work of the Spirit in my life, the cross, a place of utter helplessness. When we are helpless Christ comes right on time.

At the point of my helplessness, help has come, I see the New Covenant in a new way, Billy in his post shared about the transformative power of the cross.

Crucified: "to have had self-put to death, and this by God Himself!”

What I sharing about is my reckoning, my reality the will of God for my life.

But there is hope, as I said when your helpless Christ comes.

I cant do it - God says "I can"
I am hopeless, a unclean vessel - God says "I will give you and make you clean"
I am not Holy - Gods says "I am"
I will just make a mess of it - Gods "I will not"
All I know is defeat - Gods says "all I know is victory"

There is the transformative power of the cross, it's not me or my strength (I am nothing) -

God has promised - "He will do it"

Billy thank for your concern, I am describing in my best words the deeper work of the cross as I am experiencing it, I am being as honest and open about my prayers, that I pray in secret, to help any others that God maybe bringing to the cross, at this time, or in the future, that may stumble across this post by chance.

I have been really excited over the last week as God is opening up the New Covenant in a way I have not seen before.

My prayers will be changing as the burden has changed.

I am nothing and I very happy to be nothing.

Thank God for the transformative power of the cross.

You're welcome Colin.
Your experience sounds very similar to what I went through in the past I was a very ardent proponent of calvinism even though I was still charismatic somewhat I was vehemently opposed to perfectionism and the idea of entire sanctification in any way shape or form.

Because at the time that seemed to line up better with my understanding of never really been free from sin and always having a consciousness of sin.

Also very doctrinally dogmatic and against much of the charismatic movement and so a lot of my religion was coming against false doctrine but as the years went on I realized to my shame and pain that what I had experienced during my new birth and an outpouring of the spirit that I considered baptism of the spirit was waning and waning and my passion for spiritual things started to dry up though I meditated on scripture every day I prayed every day in my own efforts I prayed many hours a day to God up to four to six hours of meditating on scripture on many a days yet still something wasn't right and this child like faith that I had in the beginning seemed to be disappearing I was smoking cigarettes and drinking to much wine in complete justification of it due to the calvinistic and the Spurgeon type of belief system that you could drink wine and Martin Luther drank wine and beer and you know how it is maybe you don't but a found myself with a very dry form of religion.

To a point where I started to get desperate and I started to look into Wesleyan holiness teachings which I was against and something in me wanted it to be true because this living in half of victory and still being in what would be sin it seemed.

This was not the state that I wanted to live in for the rest of my Christian walk, the desperation grew in the sight of my own wretchedness,Romans seven, I felt like I was in there living that wretched lifestyle seeing my worthlessness and other inability to live the Christian life that I saw in the scripture and the called
To holiness and sanctified, living that seems so far away from me everything I tried failed.

It got To such a point where I thought to myself Lord you would be better off taking me home because I don't want to live like this I could see the scripture that said be perfect be holy I could see the scripture that talked about the fruits of the spirit the chapters of love and these verses were so foreign even though I thought I knew these verses in the beginning of my walk.

I prayed sometimes for hours a day and yet I couldn't get into that place of joy and that place of awe that I was in in the beginning and slowly but surely fishing and hunting and general hobbies started to take away that pain which only made it worse because I knew that these things were getting in the road of a prayer life that I never had anymore or a passion in prayer that I never had anymore.

Long story short then the trials and tribulations came a complete turning upside down of life. My wife was given a death sentence from the doctor with incurable tumor and cancer through her body.

My Mother died our finances were ripped apart the dream of buying the house and living on the farm and growing our vegetables was completely torn away and I was left lonely not knowing when my wife was going to die in a total state of desperation and also the consciousness that I wasn't right with God even though I cried and wept in prayer but the verse kept coming back to me (whom the son sets free will be free indeed).

Going through trial that I wouldn't wish upon my enemies no other description other than I felt like I was under a curse.

The Book of Job became a reality and a comfort.

Seeing the verses in the scripture that I was always afraid of that talked about suffering for Christ I realized that this was the thing that I had always been afraid of that I would have to suffer and God would rip away every crutch that I leaned on and left me open bare.

This trial period is something I'm still going through but it waned for a period of time when my wife got healed miraculously.

But I had severed depression and anxiety for the first time in my life and I started to understand what that was like for people and I also started to drink and smoke cigarettes because I refused to go to the doctor for medication because I didn't believe that a Christian should have to do that because of the peace that passes all understanding and the joy that's available but I kept saying no the lord will heal eventually.

And as weak as what my trust in with God was I knew he was still there and he hadn't let us go and that gave me comfort to know that I will still alive and so was my wife and we had a Destiny obviously that God had planned for us and I held God to that one verse whom the son sets free will be free indeed.

I said in my heart and in my prayers you must set me free because your words says so and you don't lie and I can't set myself free I held on to that verse and refuse to let it go.

And then one day completely out of the blue I woke up and the holy spirit had filled the room and it's cast out my depression and anxiety , cigarettes alcohol basically broke off in that experience and on that same day my friend who I was living with who was a back slidden Lutheran with bipolar the spirit came upon him as well and he started to have a fresh experience with the holy spirit and on that same day the holy spirit touched my wife who was living 2000 kilometers or more away at the time.

I knew that this is what I had been waiting for and I'd received a prophecy ten years beforehand that this was going to happen and it finally happened and that kicked off a 40-day fast that I never ever had the strength to even think about performing and this entire sanctification this was I believe the power of the holy spirit to release us from all sin it happened and I experienced it.

But I'll be very plain that this experience was then followed up with warfare in the spirit and temptations after about two to three months of complete bliss and freedom the trials started and then temptation spiritual warfare began and I realized that this entire sanctification it's not something that will stay automatically one has to wage the good warfare according to the prophecies that have been spoken like the Apostle Paul said to Timothy and we have to pray and watch and submit and yield to the spirit so that we can remain in that state and even battle on .

The experience was a consciousness of brokenness and absolute peace, helplessness,Joy unspeakable and consciousness of the holiness of God all at once.

The complete and utter knowing that God sanctified me unlike I'd ever experienced before.

Now I know the Pentecostal movement talked about three blessings the original classic pentecostalism and for me it turns out to be something similar to that but my understanding and belief is that there's going to be another wave of the holy spirit coming and I'm waiting for that to come and praying and believing for it like I did for the 10 years previous.

God was completely trustworthy in answering that prayer and cry of the heart but it took 10 years.

And more than 7 years of very uncomfortable and sometimes extremely painful trials.

And I would say in comparison to my early walk, my first 18 years of Christianity was nothing like this and The trials were just very easy to handle.

I would hope that God would take over my free will and completely utterly possessed me and not allow me to ever fall back into sin again and he would force me to keep his commandments but in reality that's not how it is though I could wish it was, we have to endure to the end and we have to fight off demonic attacks at times through different seasons and so falling into sin is still a very real possibility and experience and more then likely because it's still growth in maturity, we still have to grow in Grace.

What I hold hope for Colin is the prophecies that I've received which God has been kind to fulfill so far talks about a time when he will raise up his bride and mantle her in his glory and she will have made herself ready this will be a maturing on a corporate level and a holiness that will come upon the many in church before christ comes back and that I believe is something to look forward to I've got no reason to believe that he will not do that and it'll be all about Grace it'll be all about God's power God's holiness becoming our own.

Nothing but Mercy upon mercy Grace upon Grace and it'll be received by a broken heart yielded to his purposes not through the efforts of the flesh or not through man's will.

Not by might and it's not by power but it's but by my spirit says the Lord.

It Really will be according to what Paul said it's not of him who wills nor him who runs but Of God who shows mercy, all the way until Christ comes all the way untill we are built up and matured to the perfect man to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

It will Be a part of the fulfillment of us being living stones being built up and matured into the holy corporate temple of God and God will manifest his glory in and over that temple as he did in the time of King Solomon.☺️🙏✝️🙏

Gary when I wrote this short testimony, I knew you would reply and it's good to hear about your walk so far.

I don't understand why we are allowed to be "sifted", but it does bring you into a deeper walk with God, it was in Job that I saw he went from hear God with his ears, to seeing God. Which lets me know there was purification of the vessel that came out of the sifting.

For me I was feeling the full weight of responsibility for the call of God on my life, it was something that I can't carry in my own strength.

That burden has been lifted, know I will go ahead from a different outlook seeing that it is him that has promised to do it. So I will pray looking to him and reminding him of his word and that he has said "he will do it"

Letting go and letting God do it.

Amen . Thanks for you testimony 🙏

In retrospect this is how it was for me; I see it could be different per brother or sister in Christ. I might be one of the harder headed brethren. Facepalm, He knows what we each need, He knows us each better than we know ourselves. Discipline is His tender love to mature us.

Being sifted awakens us! During such a time it feels like the darkness is trying to engulf us! Nothing else matters but God. Divine discipline hurts, but it brings forth the fruit of endurance to those who learn from it. We drop everything else looking to Him alone through Christ. Caring no more what man think of us. Everything else we held highly is burnt up within a time of sifting like a puff of smoke. Peter went though it to. It's a humbling, painful, disciplinary love directing our bottoms to drop everything else and fully bow and acknowledge our Creator and Sustainer! It's an awakening, the seed seemingly bursting open, and in God's mercy we walk away from it humbled and knowing Him more intimately and feel His greater control over our life through His Spirit within us. Knowing He is with us all throughout the day. Since walking out of it I keep a necklace with a cross on it on me as a reminder though I should never need one. Christ is all and through Him I have life alone.

When I went through a similar working (of what seemed to be protracted series of misfortunes upon my family), Job also came to my mind. I could not think of a sin I could ascribe the said misfortunes to and yet they were at hand. I tried hard to put things back to place (to the BEST of my knowledge and power) without success.

As hell seemed to continue to break loose thus, I prayed "God, I did not get us into this, and now know I cannot get us out".

P.S: At one point my wife said: "It is as though we are cursed."

When relief finally came, it was almost as what Paul said in Romans 8:28

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God"

All seemed to work towards our altimate relief. I had a few follow up questions/remarks on the given accounts but it seems they are not necessary here - lest I mar the (essentially a) picture of golden apples on a silver background. "Nothingness"

I was just reminded that reaching the state of nothingness may be short lived unless the Lord leave us with atleast one thorn (unremoved) so that we may be able to remain thus in state. This was so with Paul (he continued with a thorn). Yes this may be necessary only for some Christians (Especially for those in public ministry or so).

The awareness of me being "nothing" is where you are utterly helpless to do the things that I am called to do.

So it was a turning point a deliverance if you like. It was there that the New Covenant was opened up. A weight has been lifted off of me, joy has replaced the burden of the "I can't do it" as "there is nothing good in me".

Matthew 11:28-30 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

At work they speak about "chronic unease" be vigilant something could go wrong at any moment. The "chronic unease" that I felt prior has been replaced as I now rest (believe) on the promises of God.

Jesus said in John 5:30

"I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Christ himself said that he can do nothing on his own, because he wasn't seeking his own will, but the will of him who sent me.

What I saw in the New Covenant is that God promises that "I will do it" Moving forward as I seek to God will for my life, as he gets ready to send me to do what he has called me to do. I will rest (believe) on the promises of God.

Myself I think I understand. Unless if I missed something, I believe the application may differ based of the circustances of each one of us's calling. May his grace abound as you thus embark on what you believe to be a God given assignment.

I am led to the blessed conviction, I am nothing, my holiness is nothing, my resolutions are nothing, my faith is nothing, my energies are nothing, I stand barren and stripped naked of everything, I fling myself into the merciful arms of the Father. There is all the difference in the world between searching for evidence of my Sonship and seeking to get the conviction of God's fatherhood. There is one in an endless, profitless, self-tormenting task. The other is the light and liberty, the glorious liberty of the children of God. I

We can live incessantly tormented by trying to search out evidences that prove our Sonship, or we can seek to truly understand, how do we do so? By this spirit bearing witness with our spirit, that we are the Sons of God. We can therefore then seek to get the true understanding of the fatherhood of God with regard to our soul. That how can we say, God, you are our father, because, as Romans 8 just said, we have him dwelling in us, crying out, Abba, Father, and confirming by such a mutual bearing witness to our soul that our soul may come into a mutual agreement and concurrence with the spirit that we are the Sons of God and live as those who enjoy the relationship that God has wrought in us instead of attempting by whatever means we manufacture to establish one of our own.

Vern - I found this

Alexander MacLaren :: The Witness of the Spirit (Romans 8:16)

Ah, brethren! expand this thought of the conviction that God is my Father, as being the basis of all my confidence that I am His child, into its widest and grandest form, and it leads us up to the blessed old conviction, I am nothing, my holiness is nothing, my resolutions are nothing, my faith is nothing, my energies are nothing; I stand stripped, and barren, and naked of everything, and I fling myself out of myself into the merciful arms of my Father in heaven!

There is all the difference in the world between searching for evidence of my sonship, and seeking to get the conviction of God's Fatherhood. The one is an endless, profitless, self-tormenting task; the other is the light and liberty, the glorious liberty, of the children of God.

I like how he says:- the blessed old conviction - "I am nothing" but it's true when we are stripped and barren we do throw ourselves into the merciful arms of the Father.

There was, 'I am nothing””Thou art everything: I bring myself and my emptiness unto Thy great fullness: fill it and make me blessed!'

Alexander MacLaren :: The Dying Thief (Luke 23:42)

God is all, and I am nothing.

Luther often said to people, when they came troubling him about difficulties, "Do let God be God."

Oh, give God His place. And what is that place? "That God may be all in all." Let God be all in all every day, from morning to evening. God to rule and I to obey.

Ah, the blessedness of saying, "God and I!" What a privilege that I have such a partner! God first, and then I! And yet there might be secret self-exaltation in associating God with myself.

And I find in the Bible a more precious word still. It is, "God and not I." It is not, "God first, and I second."

God is all, and I am nothing. Paul said, "I labored more abundantly than they all; though I be nothing."

Andrew Murray That God May Be All In All

Norman Grubb signed all of his forwards (he wrote a forward for Andrew Murray interestingly), "Not God first, but God only".

This post is timely as I just reread a testimony from one of Grubbs books that deals with this exact thing -

"For me to live is Christ" - not some of Him and some of me, but all of Him, "not I, but Christ living in me", "hid with Christ in God".

Here is something to ponder.

If we are aware of the nothing we have become, we are in fact not "nothing". To truly be nothing, is to be completely unaware of self, even unaware of the unawareness - right and left hands never meet - unconscious and spontaneous holiness as the outworking of Jesus within.

If we are aware of our "nothingness" than we still esteem ourselves to highly.

The idea of Nothingness, can come dangerously close to the transcendent state in which there is neither suffering, desire, nor sense of self, and the subject is released from the effects of karma and the cycle of death and rebirth. It represents the final goal of Buddhism.

Col 2:10 however, tells us that "ye are complete in Him."

It comes I believe from the mistaken idea that self is to be crucified with Christ. No. Self is to be denied:

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Jesus example of being led of the Spirit - he could by himself do nothing. He is denying himself and doing nothing of his own will.

Philippians 2:7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

I am nothing, my holiness is nothing, my resolutions are nothing, my faith is nothing, my energies are nothing; I stand stripped, and barren, and naked of everything.

It is there that I fling myself, out of myself into the merciful arms of my Father in heaven!

There is a difference Colin between being able to do nothing, and to be nothing.

There is the stripping down to nothing as part of the sanctifying process, but once that has been completed, the denial of self is not the the death to self we find in eastern religions.

I am trying to be exact on this at the moment and hopefully Norman Grubb will help in his exegesis of Romans 7 and particularly if he is in agreement with the ECF's.

It is in these details that the devil is most active.

@brither Evan:

"If we are aware of the nothing we have become, we are in fact not "nothing". To truly be nothing, is to be completely unaware of self, even unaware of the unawareness - right and left hands never meet - unconscious and spontaneous holiness as the outworking of Jesus within.

If we are aware of our "nothingness" than we still esteem ourselves to highly."

How can we say with Paul: "For me to live is Christ" if we are unaware that this is the case? How can Christ say: "I can do nothing by myself unless he is aware of the same fact of helplessness when alone?

How do we settle it in heart to remain on the vine unless we know we can bear no fruit when disassociated with it?

Again @brother Evan:

1 Corinthians 4:7 KJV
"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"

Unless were are contatly aware of this, how shall we not glory (vain glory that is contrary to what is expected of us)

It seems to me that it is because this nothingness is never immune to being lost, that Paul needed something (the thorn) to frequently remind him that he can of himself do none of the glorious works he did (revelations, miracles, etc.).

But unless we are conscious (or frequently reflect on) about the same, how can we reason with our selves away from vain glorying when tempted to?

Quote: There is a difference Colin between being able to do nothing, and to be nothing.

Philippians 2:7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Christ was not able to do nothing, because he humbled himself and made himself "nothing” by taking the very nature of a servant.

Andrew Murray says - There are two great powers fighting each other-the self-nature in the power of sin, and Christ in the power of God.

I am nothing - is the place of surrender.

It is like when Ahab surrendered unconditionally to Ben-Hadad. Ahab believed he was in no position to resist Ben-Hadad.

In his Nothingness - Ahab said - My lord, O king, just as you say, I and all that I have are yours.

Nothingness ”“ is the cross, it is where you say - I am nothing, my holiness is nothing, my resolutions are nothing, my faith is nothing, my energies are nothing; I stand stripped, and barren, and naked of everything.

Nothingness - Is the transition where you surrender "your independent self” to the will of the Father and say I can do nothing on my own.

Nothingness - Is the transition from becoming a child of God to a Son of God, (Romans 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Nothingness - Is the transition from being under the law (Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.)

Quote: @brither Evan:

Now that's what I would say in the area of Scotland that I am from. I may spell it differently "brether"

What would say for church: I would say - Kirk.

//Nothingness - Is the transition where you surrender "your independent self” to the will of the Father and say I can do nothing on my own.

Nothingness - Is the transition from becoming a child of God to a Son of God, (Romans 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Nothingness - Is the transition from being under the law (Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.)//

There is indeed a place where we agree to be nothing, but as David Pawson (which I am listening to now) said that in Pilgrims Progress, there is a side road that leads to hell just before heaven.

There are two errors that I see affect us as we approach the entrance, and that is, that we are to crucify ourselves and that it means self is to remain dead.

Firstly, we are not to crucify ourselves, as it was done on the cross 2K years ago. What we have to do is to believe it and walk in it. Then about self: self is neutral, it serves the flesh or the Spirit. For the Christian, the flesh serving God is our own strength. It is for the stage when we have already accepted the old man's death.

I fear that eastern religion ideas are entering into the sacred place. I must look Nee up on the issue.

Looking at Job - I should have went there first.

I can remember walking out of the church, saying I won't be back, I prayed and acknowledged the calling on my life and that I didn't know how he was going to do it, but I believe that he would it and just didn't know how.

Then the Spirit whispered "You'll be like Job"

There was three questions that God asked Job.

1. If you can't understand these wonders in creation, how can you understand spiritual realities?

2. If I control all My creation, do you think that I couldn't control the lightning that struck your sheep, or the Sabeans and Chaldeans who killed your servants, or the storm that struck your children's houses?

3. If you can't stand in front of a crocodile that I created, how can you stand before Me.

Then he asks Job a question.

Job 40:2 NLT Do you still want to argue with the Almighty?

Look at how Job replies.

Job 40:3-5 NLT. Then Job replied to the LORD, "I am nothing how could I ever find the answers? I will cover my mouth with my hand. I have said too much already. I have nothing more to say.”

God showed Job His sovereign power and control over all of creation. That was all that needed to be said as Job was humbled.

All that I am saying is this:

God wants us to recognize our nothingness, so that he can be everything in our lives. Then our lives will fulfil His purpose and be a blessing to multitudes. But before God can use someone, He has to reduce us to nothing.

Indeed we are to be brought to nothing before Him. All of our works ie serving Him in the flesh, are filthy rags. That is, even with the best of our intentions and thinking that we are crucifying ourselves, are nothing in His service. It must be all from Him as the motivation and inspiration of everything we do.

However, it does not mean that self dies. The old man does and that is not the same thing. Self now has a new master, but if we think that self is dead, it opens us up to the enemy. In Satan's kingdom, self is dead - Nivana.

Brethren

It seems to me that this is a very important question, and the reason why there is no true revival which I mean one where the whole of society is changed for the better.

I hope that we can be in agreement that there is a danger as John Bunyan said, at the very entrance to paradise where we are led astray. If we agree we can work to discern what it is.

There is a division here and we all cannot be right and it behooves us to root out the truth in the matter as I am saying that there is error. If I am in error I will endeavor to see my mistake and hope all are in agreement there and admit our liability to be wrong.

Quote: There is a division here and we all cannot be right.

All that I am sharing is what I am going through - it started about 8 months ago.

It started at the first Holiness meeting when Frank said you must be "nothing"

My first inclination was to push back against that thought, but I saw in scripture.

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

So I have stuck with the Holiness meetings.

Two month later - the awareness of the call of God came.

This only intensified that thought - as I went to God in prayer, I found I was saying in my prayer "I am nothing"

I was recognizing my nothingness before him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWnKjGZtJr4

Quote: It seems to me that this is a very important question, and the reason why there is no true revival which I mean one where the whole of society is changed for the better.

Watch my testimony - In it I share things which I have hidden for years and what will be my part in the coming Move of God.

Thanks. I have watched your testimony before, but will try to find time today.

Once again, I am not saying we are not to become stripped of everything but that we are not to stay in Nirvana.

I watched your testimony at 1.75 speed as I just needed a reminder of what I had heard before, and in fact, countless times from charismatic claims of baptism of the Spirit. The same thing, an overpowering something then loss of physical control and intelligible speech.

Brother this is a new phenomena that developed 100 years ago and is not the traditional understanding that baptism of the Spirit is the HOLY Spirit for man to be delivered from this realm and be made HOLY as He is holy.

I might have been impressed had you brought your wife Jackie forward and asked her tell everyone if her husband no longer sins because of the HOLY Spirit.

It is the movement that has caused more division in the church than anything else and began to do that in Azusa. Wesley's baptism did not do that.

In case you want to ask - yes. I was on a forum discussing this and my husband now deceased came on and verified that I was without sin. Only my word I know.

If I did bring my wife out, you wouldn't believe her either..

How do you know that Colin? I would actually.

Life-Study of Jeremiah and Lamentations, by Witness Lee.

A PICTURE SHOWING THAT WE ARE NOTHING AND THAT CHRIST IS EVERYTHING TO US

The picture portrayed by Jeremiah concerning Israel is a picture of us as believers in Christ today. This means that we are the same as Israel. Like Israel, we once had a "bridal day" (Jer. 2:2), a time when we pledged our love to the Lord and told Him that we loved Him to the uttermost. However, many believers have left their first love (Rev. 2:4) and have become degraded according to the pattern presented in Revelation 2 and 3. We may be disappointed with such a situation, but God is not disappointed. He knows that there will be a time of restoration and that sooner or later we will be willing to be subdued.

Eventually we will all be submissive to the Lord and recognize that we are evil; we will confess that we are a totality of sin. When we realize this, we will say, "Lord, I am nothing, but You are my everything. I am sin, but You are my righteousness. I am dead, but You are my life." Moreover, we will realize that along with the divine life with its sense, law, and capacity, we also have the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). We will see that day by day we are being sanctified, renewed, and transformed, and that the time is coming when we will be conformed to the image of Christ and be glorified. Whereas God will always be God with the unique Godhead and whereas there will always be a distinction between us and God, we will nevertheless be constituted with God and be one with Him in life, nature, element, essence, image, and appearance so that we may be His corporate expression for eternity.

Some may find it hard to believe that this revelation concerning God’s economy with His dispensing can be found in the book of Jeremiah. We should be reminded that Jeremiah speaks of God’s being the fountain of living waters and of Christ’s being our righteousness. The book also speaks of the new covenant with all its blessings. After Israel’s failure, God came in to say, "This is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares Jehovah: I will put My law within them and write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they will be My people" (Jer. 31:33). In Hebrews 8 Paul quotes this portion of Jeremiah and applies it to us, the New Testament believers. This means that the new covenant with its privileges and blessings is for us to enjoy today. Israel will have this enjoyment later, after the Lord’s coming back.

Jeremiah truly is an abstract of the Bible. As such an abstract, this book is a picture showing us that we are nothing and that Christ is everything to us. If we see that we are nothing, we will not expect anything of ourselves. Rather, according to God’s economy with His dispensing, we will take Christ as our life, our life supply, and our everything.

"The traditional explanation of the Trinity is grossly inadequate and borders on tritheism” Lee (Life Messages, p. 164).

https://www.gotquestions.org/Witness-Lee-local-church.html

I am Nothing, I have Nothing, and I can do Nothing!

I am nothing, I have nothing & I can do nothing! These are some of the greatest words that a servant of the Lord can utter. These are not the ramblings of one with low self-esteem. These are the words of one who knows the meaning of reliance upon God. These are the words of those who have taken seriously what Jesus taught - "Without Me, you cannot do anything." (Jn 15:5)

Any Christian who has ever attempted to do anything great for God knows this to be true; though, coming to this realization often comes with a costly price tag.

Our pride gets hurt.
Our plans fail.
Friends and ministry partners forsake us.
Bouts of discouragement, depression, fear and stress come upon us.

It is during these times that the Holy Spirit takes us to school - sometimes to learn and relearn the valuable lesson of reliance on Christ.

The plan is that after we've had enough, we come to our senses and realize that unless God gets involved, we are doomed! Sadly, this process can be pretty extensive - we are stubborn creatures. So we keep fighting and struggling to make it happen. But coming to the end of ourselves is where we find God. In finding God, we find all the power and provision of heaven for the taking. God help us to come to the end of ourselves!

Remember this: God hasn't called us to collapse us. He hasn't sent us to sink us. He hasn't brought us this far to bury us. He hasn't loved us to leave us. If you believe that, you can make it through anything that comes your way. Believe it and don't let your faith fail now.

Throw your life and ministry on the faithfulness of God. Confess before Him your inadequacies. Confess before Him that you do need Him. If the shoe fits your situation, repent of your self-reliance and plead with Him for His presence. He will not deny your request

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=49602&forum=45

1. After having several discourses with sister Brenda, I am tempted to assert that she really would not believe if Jackie were to testify to brother Colins' victory over sin.

2. Sister Brenda not only seek to dismiss these types of baptism tokens but also thinks the tongues spoken of in the NT were foreign language meant to avert the need for an interpreter (she infact use Missionaries in here context of examples of this).

Then of cause she could not best explain the below 1 Cor. 14 verses:

"14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."

So I would suggest you hear her out with a grain of salt, brother Colins. I am not saying there are no Counterfeits, but I have often thought she tend to throw out the baby with the bathing water. We are neighter to keep the bathing water nor throw it out with the baby.

What I am saying it that you soon find that you do not only disagree with her over extra-Biblical cases but even with Bible Scriptures and their meaning.

So we may start there, to try and find out why it is so.

I never got to ask but if you would, sister Brenda, kindly advise on the following:

1. If tongues were for interpretation purposes, then what was the need that they came into the picture at Cornelius - when all along Peter and them spoke a language they both understood - to a point of them believing and then being baptised in the Holy Spirit?

2. What was the need for the tongues to come up from the 12 at Ephesus that Paul asked if they had received the Spirit since they believed? Because it is clear Paul and them could understand each other just fine up until they were baptised in the Holy Spirit too?

Well, if sister Brenda believes one's baptism is counterfeit, if logic must dictate, then she is compelled to dismiss any claim of virtue that may be tossed at her in support thereof (including claims of victory over sin). May God open this up to her.

Quote: So I would suggest you hear her out with a grain of salt, brother Colins.

Thank you for your advise; I cannot deny what happened, it may not fit in with what someone else may believe, but never the less, that's what happen.

On that day the Holy Spirit came as wind and I spoke in a new language, the tounges of Angels. I personally can testify that through that "experience" it was a turning point in my life.

It happened prior to me going onto church; I never shared do much about my past life in the testimony, but I was a very violent man. One of my fear's was that I was going to come out of the violent rages that I suffered from with someone dead at my feet.

But praise God, he heard my cry and came and delivered me. He sent people from different parts of the world, an Indian and Ex-Triads from Hong Kong, to a small fishing town in the North East of Scotland, so that I could be set free.

I sometimes think and wonder, that God could speak to man from a tea estate in Tamil nadu and say that he must go to Scotland. He obeyed and came and knocked on the Pastor's door and said "God has told me to preach at your church"

It's mind blowing - his testimony was like I was listening to my story, that night he preached, I got deliverance from demonic power. I can still remember the vile taste in my mouth when that vile creature came out.

Oh when the Triads came and prayed for me, nothing happened then, but when I went home into my room, the Love of God swept over me in waves, I cried and cried and cried because I knew that Jesus Loved me.

What a merciful, good and loving God we have.

He chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly and despised things of the world, and the things that are not, to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast in His presence.

So there is the range anywhere from foolish to those who are nothing, this what he chose.

Speaking as a Continuist and not a Cessationist, and having been trained in good exegesis during my time in Calvinism, I have to take other scriptures into account over the subject of tongues such as this warning from Isaiah 28: to the unbelieving Jews:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

I also have to take into account Acts 2:

And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Regarding the fall of the tower of Babel, Genesis 11:

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel[c]””because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

So we see that tongues was a sign at Pentecost of judgment to the unbelieving Jews, and was used to spread the gospel with the miraculous sign of foreign languages which had not been learnt. this was generally not continued through church history as can be shown easily until a new sort appeared in the last 100 years.

On the verses quoted, and considering the times of the miracle of tongues, I do not see anything unusual that at the Spirit Baptism and the ecstacy experienced that they would burst forth in the gift regardless.

I also read in my Bible that tongues will cease, and they did indeed according to church historians. It does not say that other gifts will cease and in the Greek from an outside agency and not from their own.

I am not however, called by the Lord as an apologist in this matter. My only desire is to get God's people to test their experience of Baptism.

Quote: I also read in my Bible that tongues will cease, and they did indeed according to church historians.

The church historians are wrong.

He chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise.

Edited
Like I advised once, sister Brenda, the God who gives tongues at an instant would not be unable to give me a tongue spoken by another nation when necessary. But where there is no need, he can very well let me partake on an angelic language. After all, the point is not always for men to understand what I am saying (without a gift of interpreting tongues - and more so when praying therewith)

1 Corinthians 13:8 is the passage cited for ceasing toungues, etc. But as advised, it is being taken out of context.

May God have mercy!

PS:

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

PS. May God have God have mercy

If he speaks a language unknown to the listeners or himself, only God understands. It is a mystery to all.

Edited

1. "speaketh not unto men, but unto God" = so he is atleast speaking to God
2. "howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries" = in the spirit he is speaking hidden things to God. And unless he can interpret these, he should not speak them publicly as he cannot edify thereby.

Tongues can be used for prayer (1 Cor. 14:14&15), prophesy (when there is an interpreter) and a sign (as you noted).

Else (again) why do we see a gift of interpretion of toungues on verse 10 of 1 Cor. 12? Why should that which is given to interprete again need to be interpreted?

INTERPRETER

"The ἀναπληρῶν was a person who not only led the affirmation but acted as an intermediary between the leadership and the laity. The duty of the ἀναπληρῶν was to ensure understanding for the lay-people. His job was to transpose high priestly thoughts, complex lectures, liturgical themes and practices, religious jargon, or any difficult instruction for the average person to understand. The ἀναπληρῶν would unpack them in easy to comprehend concepts so that the congregation could follow him with an amen.

If the presentation was done in a language unfamiliar to the ἀναπληρῶν nor was a translation given, then he could not fulfill his duty. He could not give an amen because both himself and the congregation understood nothing."

charlesasullivan.com/3235/the-mysterious-anapleron-of-i-corinthians-1416/

"Quote: I also read in my Bible that tongues will cease, and they did indeed according to church historians.

The church historians are wrong. Colin."

Yes I correct that. There were some instances of number 1 through history till 18th century. However, your understanding of tongues began much later.

"However, the definition of speaking in tongues (1) by those who practice and promote such a lifestyle is very mysterious and abstract. There is a complete lack of historical evidence to support such a contemporary phenomenon. This absence of historical literature has led to various conclusions and shaped modern practice.

The Gift of Tongues Project has revealed so far three important phases in the doctrine of tongues throughout history:

1 the traditional doctrine of miraculously speaking or hearing a foreign language. First to eighteenth-centuries.

2 the change to the doctrine of glossolalia in the nineteenth-century

3 the third mutation to a heavenly language in the twentieth-century

The project’s goal is not to trace every movement from the seventeenth century onwards but to follow why the definition had changed. The new meaning had stabilized soon after 1906, so it is not necessary to go any further into the genre after that."

https://charlesasullivan.com/571/introductory-notes-on-the-history-of-the-gift-of-tongues/

Please post your evidence that this writer was wrong on type 2 and 3 thanks.

Please explain to me why speaking in no 3 tongues - the heavenly language would help me in my relationship with Christ and my life. Thanks.

I cannot personally account for the implied evolution presented (especially due to the existance of conterfeit). My understanding of tongues does not largely come (if at all) from someone's definations but from what I find the scriptures to be saying. Like I said, it's prayer (also singing), prophesy and sign from scriptures.

I would also wish you leave what others are saying and openly go and study the topic based on what the scriptures alone say.

Bringing up all relevant verses and be open to leave alone any losse end in the process.

PS. I must note that I do not think tongues are for everyone. Just as other gifts aren't.

Kervin, I have been a believer for 50 years and soon came in contact with charismatics in my search for a church and so ,whilst getting no input from them regarding teaching on the subject, I endeavoured to find out if it is in scripture. So that is where I began.

I ended up in Calvinism but still knew charismatics and was able to observe their degree of conformity to Christ and scriptural knowledge.

I am now back in touch with Pentecostals/charismatics regarding Bible studies with them and left an Elim church due to the spiritual abuse from the pastor.

I have extensive experience plus Bible study from both sides.

The interesting thing is that there is neither Charismatic nor Pentecostal in the Scriptures. So it's either we understand what they are saying or we don't.

That is why a revival is the only solid answer I see. Then we should see no line of denomination whatsoever - only God as he is to be seen.

Let's get back to scriptures alone and pray to God where we have no understanding! And see if he won't revive our dry lands.

Of ourselves we cannot win this (or anything) , so let us admit our insufficiency and turn to him in prayer. Asking him to simply reigh over us. Then his Spirit alone shall direct us.

The tongue speaking you are talking about has only been found in Pentecostals/charismatics.

Edited

But I found it in the Bible, sister. I reckon they also found it in there too (excluding counfeit). So the issue is with interpreting scriptures. Which is to be God's office alone. If he lives us in the dark, we grop - if he shines his light bright, we see our way!

You are ignoring that there is a divide, and each divide - cessationism and continuism, see it in scripture. When there is a verse like the one you quoted, and it can be interpreted in two or more ways, good interpretation insists that you must bring in other verses that are connected.

We are unable to interpret individually without seeing though a mind set that we have learned which you have denied previously. We must look beyond the mindset we have learned and few believers are willing to do that. We must have a desire for the truth even if it will mess things up for us.

This involves more than just saying 'God will show us'. This is why brother there are over 40,000 Protestant denominations.

It is your failure to see people who have a desire for truth (amongst others) that makes me lose hope on your approach. Any theologian who does not regard prayer as intergral in their ultimate interpretations is proud I reckon. Like I am curious about your prayer life, sister?

PS. Like how much do you soak your efforts in prayer?

I do not do anything without prayer. Every single decision. My theology has prayerfully developed over 50 years and enables me to be an overcomer in difficulties few have to deal with.

You were quite happy to take money from me if that was from prayer and now you accuse me of having no prayer life.

A person who seeks truth will willingly examine the other side and most of all, understand the 'stable' the other one comes from. You had not studied holiness theology as part of our discussions which you admittedly had a low understanding of theology.

That is okay for those who just want to get on with their Christian life, but for those who wish to debate, it is a huge sign of disrespect and ignorance.

I have studied all versions of Christianity for that reason.

Brenda

"Pray at all times in the Spirit with every prayer and request, and stay alert with all perseverance and intercession for all the saints” Eph 6:18.

Scripture commands us to pray in the "spirit” with every prayer and request.

"But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life” Jude 1:20.

It Builds us up, it helps us be kept in the Love of God.

I could write pages and pages of testimony, from the little things for finding car keys, to help at my work, most of all it is the Presence of God that comes when I pray that way. I will pray in English but when I don’t know what to pray, I will start speaking in tounges pulling on the Spirit to help me pray, then I will switch back to English.

However, I will write of two examples while in prayer using both tounges and English the prayer transitioned from tounges to deep groanings.

When you pray in tongues, you are yielding to the Holy Spirit who dwells in you. Then you are allowing that same Spirit to pray through you. Roms 8:26-27

One example was while praying for my wife’s sister, this intense prayer can only be described by a deep groan. After a period and I can’t remember how long it was, the resistance broke and a breakthrough, this was followed by God’s presence flooding the room that I was in and then then there was great joy.

When I sat down after praying I got a vision in my mind’s eye of her sister doing certain things and then the Holy Spirit and told me what I should say. When I said "must I”, I was asked by the Spirit, "do you want to see her saved” to which I said "yes” . He replied and said "then you must do it”
Today she is saved and going on with God.

Another example of the same thing would be while in group prayer prior to evangelising we went from speaking in tounges and English into groaning prayer. I then went out on the streets and met a group of workers. When the partner I was with went to speak with them, I stepped into help. As I began to speak ”“ these words started to come out of me. I later spoke with someone about it and he said "that was prophecy”

The next day when praying again we ended up groaning in the Spirit, in my mind’s eye I kept seeing these guys that I had spoke to. Later on that night these 2 x guys and 6 family member came along to the meeting they got saved other family members who were Christian got baptised in the Spirit.

I asked you upto twice to go into joint prayer during my private discussion with you and it never happened. What was I to rationally make of that? Think you esteem prayer - or to think the contrary?

PS. So even if you may now say you do nothing without prayer, another question comes, how exactly do you pray as that is another subject by itself. How long as well - because this tells of our reliance thereon.

Amen, brother Colins

PS. I am not saying you have no prayer life. I am just curious about how it is as sometimes you seem to me to suggest that reasoning out this things is the best we can do. Where do we come to own our insufficiency and seek from God? You say good interpretation is looking at more than one verse but where is God in this? That is how I came to be curious about your prayer life.

I am not saying you have no prayer life. I am just curious about how it is as sometimes you seem to me to suggest that reasoning out this things is the best we can do. Where do we come to own our insufficiency and seek from God? You say good interpretation is looking at more than one verse but where is God in this? That is how I came to be curious about your prayer life

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.” 1 Cor 14:14-15

Praying in tounges - my spirit prays

Singing tounges - my spirit sings

There are worshipful flows, aggressive flows, prophetic flows, intimate flows; all proceed from the resident Holy Spirit within our heart.

"For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.” 1 Cor 14:2

And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues Mark 16:17

And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. Acts 19:6

So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 1 Cor 14:9-11

Clearly the Scriptures couple the idea of praying in the Spirit with tongues.

Kervin I did not feel led to join in with prayers. I need to know more about people who I pray with in case they are involved with any occultic practices. I am not saying I suspected it, I am just careful what I get involved in.

On prayer for you both - since I was ES'ed I pray without ceasing. That is, I spend all of my time in the presence of God which is easy being on my own all of the time.

Colin God answers my prayers sometimes amazingly when I pray for the salvation of others, two recently that I had never met. And almost daily I see the works of God in finding things, information I need coming to me for example for health issues instead of using medical care which is not suitable for my condition and so many things I can barely mention.

After my entering into His rest of ES, all of the nearness of God was answered with peace and joy and the ability to survive conditions that most would break down under.

If you are a good Wesleyan you will use the methods he prescribed for biblical interpretation, using scripture, the Spirit, reasoning and experience.

I find many leave out the reasoning.

Dear sister, none of the methods he prescribed helped his predestination difference with George Whitefield. When will we come to the same realisation that God does not always seek to bring us to seeing in the same way at all times - and leave things to him?

They probably reasoned a lot only to find that God is not granting any resolution there. And that is what I am seeing with us.

This thread is overtaken by introspective selfishness and a unholy lifting up of individual experiences and private interpretations - and the glaring omission in the whole thing is Jesus Himself.

The test of whether or not something is of God the Holy Spirit is whether or not it glorifies Jesus - "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15; ESV)

So I guess you could all read past this post - or seek the Lord in realization that the same sectarian party spirit that you all have decried in the denominationalism of the reformation is at work just as strongly right here and now - among you.

I echo Jesus words in the revelation - you have left your first love, repent and do the first works. But like another church to which Jesus issued warning, your fattened and wealthy spiritual lives are rich and increased with goods, and in need of nothing - often by your own admission.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit"

May you see it.

How shall we seek the Lord when we cannot agree and jontly go into prayer. There the sister says, she did not feel led and may still not feel led even now I fear.

It was largely due to our disagreement that I advised we pray and seek the Lord but she could not consent as she said.

//Dear sister, none of the methods he prescribed helped his predestination difference with George Whitefield. When will we come to the same realisation that God does not always seek to bring us to seeing in the same way at all times - and leave things to him?//

Some things yes, we all have different revelations on some matters so we can work together but some are unworkable and are salvific. Non tongue speakers say it is the language of satan so cannot join in a service.

Edited
There then. Sister Brenda also had to renounce Finney (during our private talk) because of him asserting groans I think. So it is not just tongues.

Please get my statements right. I said that I accepted Finney's witness.

I thought that is what you implied. I must have missunderstood you there. Because I mentioned that I could groan from the first day of baptism but you sought to dismiss that as foreign until I shared that Finney also knew groans as being from the Spirit of travail in prayer.

PS. So there was God giving me groans from day one. And tongues only later (after a week or two or so).

I test everything first by the witness of my spirit, by scripture and what the very early fathers interpreted from it.

Evan, as has been asked of you previously - you need to speak more plainly and especially during a quick-fire discussion.

My position now, sister is that: Just as you previously were foreign to groans (but eventually embraced them after I brought Finney's witness), so are you with tongues. With God's grace + continued prayer, you hopefully shall eventually embrace them too.

The issue is that it hurts a lot, sister, when you mercilessly attach our tokens of virtue like this.

It hurts when you attach our tongues as you do the same way it hurt when you mercilessly attached my groans. And I must have been 'very' happy when you accepted Finney's witness and excused them.

Why do you have to take it so personally when someone disagrees with you and call it 'attack' and even 'merciless'?

There is no way that agreement can be found when this occurs. I have changed my views a few times in discussion and nobody else acts 'wounded' by me at my disagreements.

How should I feel when you say tongues are the devil's language and therefore cannot join in the service, sister?

PS. I think I recall you blatantly calling my baptism 'psedo-baptism' and have several times inferred it was conterfeit. I am happy to find brother Colins has similar tokens to offer. Topped with claims of victory over sin. Which you also seem to dismiss.

I said there is a pseudo-baptism of the Spirit I did not say you had it. I said we should be careful to discern. That is up to you to do that.

It seems that you are unable brother to discuss differences without over-emotionality.

It's fine I will try to look into the inferred emotions. What I recall is that I tried to bear long with you during the early stages of our discussion privately. But at some point, it seemed to me that the longer I hang in, the longer I get hurt with no good hope of resolutions.

That is why I have often went into this mode here on SI - but only where you were involved (I think) as I still did not understand what made you to discuss from that stance (the hurting kind I would say). But it is okay we can rest all here for now I would say.

Oh, I wish to know what you meant here as I realise you only commented on psudo-baptism.

"Non tongue speakers say it is the language of satan so cannot join in a service."

Ravehill did not speak in tongues to my recollection but I do not recall him saying this? Only that it was of no use to speak in tongues on Sunday and use the same tongue for evil midweek.

Brother I think we should end this discussion.

Kervin, Brenda,

Seems to me that you may have some bitterness and resentment to work out between the two of you - I would seek the Lord. Lay your gift at the altar, go repent and find freedom, come back here and praise the Lord that He can deliver anyone (I think though Brenda, you will deny this due to your theology - and therein lies the danger).

It is glaringly obvious - but only the Holy Spirit can convince you.

"Non tongue speakers say it is the language of satan so cannot join in a service."

Not all Christians that do not speak in tongues believe that it is of the devil. Many non Charismatic Christians believe that they do not need to speak in tongues, do not desire to speak in tongues, or do not have the gift of tongues. You have some that are Cessationists that believes that this gift was for the early Church and is not for Christians today as well as all the other gifts of the Spirit.

I don't bear any grudges against brother Kervin. I would not have allowed any discussion with him if that was the case, after he warned Colin and everyone else about me (will try to find it if necessary) and said something else similar..

I don't see how further discussion is profitable to us. I believe that God can deliver anyone, you have go that one wrong. But thanks for trying to resolve things. I asked Kervin before to just agree to disagree but he cannot do that. It is all that is required.

//Not all Christians that do not speak in tongues believe that it is of the devil. Many non Charismatic Christians believe that they do not need to speak in tongues, do not desire to speak in tongues, or do not have the gift of tongues. You have some that are Cessationists that believes that this gift was for the early Church and is not for Christians today as well as all the other gifts of the Spirit.//

Yes Mike I should have made that clear.

Brenda,

While saying you don't bear any grudges you brought up at least one grudge your bearing.

Both you and Kervin should seek the Lord for cleansing and forgiveness, before your hearts become hardened - seek Him to see if I'm correct, what cannot hurt yeah? If anything, you'll find Jesus in prayer and perhaps be encouraged.

Don't let pride destroy you.

I forgive you Kervin. May God bless you.

Sister Brenda, my arguments are not of an empty origin. My dream is to get to a place where as many of us as can shall jointly pray towards the needed revival (joining whoever who already are doing so - whereever in the world). But I feel we are stuck on thrological differences (part of the reason why I opened the Moravian thread). That we may get over our differences and move on to prayer. But you confirmed today that your concerns of our baptism tokens leaves you unable to pray with us (including asking the Lord to help us get past our differences I reckon?).

And this also led to your withrawing from LCF for one - instead of us moving on to engaging in joint prayer that can add to making Kingdom difference.

This of cause leaves us with no choice but to continue ironing the topic until you hopefull come to embrace tongues (as you did groans) for one. Of cause provided you are open to further discussion - else prayer shall but be the only avenue left.

My cry has been essentially one, if you see as many of your wrongs (including the one of non-tongue speakers saying tongues are the language of the devil) it can hopefully bring you to check where else you might have been wrong - and ultimately bring you to true openness to restructuring your theology where necessary).

@brother Evan and sister Brenda, please see my last post

Kervin I cannot join you in praying for revival as I do not think there will be a true one. I believe there will be a false one which will bring in the anti-Christ.

After having studied theology, church history, doctrine and Bible study for 50 years, the idea that you can enforce change in my mind is not reality. I would have only be able to work with you if you accepted our differences.

I studied your charismatic doctrines a long time ago with an open mind and asked God to show me the truth.

Kervin and Brenda,

This discussion (hopefully Brenda agrees at this point), is so obviously sinful, bitter and proud between the two of you - and you are right Kervin, no ground will be covered because there is absolutely no love for each other between the 2 of you.

Kervin you are bitter about Brenda withdrawing from you online endeavor (which you also accused me of acting sinfully because I made an account and never posted...) - this has poisoned your entire conversation here. It is sinful and needs repentance and the blood of Jesus.

Brenda, you took a huge step given your theology, in offering Kervin forgiveness, but took no steps to even be authentic and honest about your possible roles in this entire debacle that has overtaken the forum at this point.

It's to the point where I feel completely at liberty to call this out, and call you both to repentance and point to to the Lord Jesus for cleansing and forgiveness.

Seek Him while He can be found.

There is another non religious reason which I cannot state without breaking your confidence. It makes it not feasible for me to remain in regular contact (20+ emails a day).

But you were this adamant about groans, sister. But Finney helped you embrace them. What makes you think we cannot have a similar thing with tongues. On the flip side, it also makes it hard for us to watch you try to indoctrinate those who embrace tongues, etc away and towards your version of ES.

So I guess we are both compelled to hear each patiently beyond what we would personally wish for? Because you wish to be heard and we also wish to be heard?

@brother Evan, I said I found it not Christ-like to just go quiet and expect me to add one and one by myself when you could have easily messaged me regarding your possible change of mind. I even emailed you privately though I was tempted to ask here on SI first.

Evan I appreciate your attempts to right things. You are spot on about resentment about leaving the LCF. Kervin shared with me regarding his over you not being in contact.

There are reasons stated that I do not want to get into, things that I had already spoken to Kervin about. I am sorry about the situation that has developed and see I should not have been in touch about the online church. I only wanted to know about it then quickly found myself as a member.

It is not about doctrines as I knew from the start the differences and have been attending a Pentecostal church for a while thinking I could perhaps fit in when I had to leave Calvinism.

I was mistaken to think that side could work though. I really wanted it to work as I have no church or much fellowship to speak of, amongst Pentecostals.

Kervin I will make one last attempt - you said about your groans instead of prayers and I said I thought that it was not a good substitute. You said Finney accepted groans during his ministry but then that was during a revival where all sorts of things happen due to the overwhelming presence of God so I said that if he did not stop them I wouldn't during a revival.

LCF cannot have resentment as it is ever open to release anyone who finds a worthy local Church. It is the condemnation you both left me with.

For brother Evan I had to guess what went wrong as he could not be bold enough (for Christ's sake I mean) to voice it out?

Sister Brenda did voice out but here are things she voiced out that I am struggling to submit to.

1. Psudo baptism
2. 20 emails a day were necessary because she was clear early in the chat that she doubted my baptism. Who would not be eager to prove oneself for Christ's sake?
3. Her differing ES theology which she probably believed I did not want to embrace.
4. Etc.

PS. I was beginning to justify you brother Evan thinking you never got any of my emails. I am surprised that you were receiving them?

To that I said the bible says we do not know how to pray as we aught. So the Spirit helps... I also said that true saints won't publish their private works of faith until necessary. I personally will groan steadily even when working in the garden. And I do not go around publishing that though the flesh would like to for vain glory.

As previously stated, it was not doctrines or practices as I have been fellowshipping with Pentecostals for some time. If they accept me as not agreeing that is.

Kervin,
I made an account on your site to show you support and never even posted - I didn't join a cult.

With that said, now you know exactly why the Lord wouldn't allow me to correspond with you - and that is all I will say to your bitterness, because that is what is talking.

I've said what I was given liberty to say - consider this matter closed regarding my involvement - you are in the Lord's hands and mine are clean.

May He have mercy and may you both find it.

" I didn't join a cult."

Please what do you mean by that brother?.

No, this is not bitterness, brother, but an effort to publicly and sharply rebuke those that would want to stand at a distance and condem others as though they have no omissions, etc.

As for the account to support, I wish you had simply replied and said that. But you left me wondering if you found something I may need to correct. Wondering if you do not voice it out due to fear of persecution (possibly from me), etc.

This is true - Kervin asked me if I knew why you did not post and were you upset about anything he had done and needed correction.

Edited

Just last week or so I sent him the below email and still got no reply (and that was after I was tempted to ask publicly - but resisted):

Good day

I promised to not email you again but yes this is not directly about LCF ”“ but was motivated largely by our recent interactions on SI. I first thought of asking this on SI but I again I thought it might be more appropriate privately via email.

I understand you may have changed your mind about your joining LCF but I thought your being just quite like you did was not Christ-like.

May I know you comment on this? I do believe you may have a just explanation but I felt I could not justify you in my heart until I hear it from you.

Regards

Kervin

Edited

@sister Brenda, if there is no grace for us to belong to a Church there is just no grace I guess.

Either than prayer I dreamt about jontly taking communion in remembrance of the Lord, jointly singing songs such "How I love Jesus... because he first loved me", etc. But yes one cannot insist on this I reckon (except through pleading further with the Lord in prayer).

PS. I say no grace because perhaps only a revival can make this possible. Until then, all manner of issues prevail against a true Church experience. Afterall, how can one get anything in any other that can only be gotten when God had come down like Duncan Campbell would say.

PS. Yes this is not generalized by me. But it applies for my circumstances and any other spiritual dry sects.

With all that said, brother Evan, I consider the following nullified?

"With that said, now you know exactly why the Lord wouldn't allow me to correspond with you - and that is all I will say to your bitterness, because that is what is talking."

PS: "No, this is not bitterness, brother, but an effort to publicly and sharply rebuke those that would want to stand at a distance and condem others as though they have no omissions, etc."

PS: Or shall we say Christ was bitter when he said: "Ye hypocrites!" Or John the Baptist: "You brood of vipers!"

Good day to all. Like I advised, My efforts were not from a selfish standpoint but indeed intended in servitude to the Lord.

That said, I would still like to 'heartily' apologise to anyone who feels unjustly hurt (and feel they deserve an apology)

I did not think what our sister brought up was personal as I saw brother Colins' baptism was, by her, also brought into questioning (this was infact where I first hoped in yeasterd). So for this I would not be tempted to take any personal grudge as brother Evan seem to have understood for one.

Yes I feel brother Evan would often come in with less information than would be necessry to best judge the disagreement in hand (as I advised that I have had an extended talk with our sister privately prior to this - I do not mean to start another fight by this, sister) - and I also feel he remains silent when direct questions are asked and his comment desired.

But it is all well. Again my appologies to all who feel unjustly hurt from it all.

"I watched your testimony at 1.75 speed as I just needed a reminder of what I had heard before, and in fact, countless times from charismatic claims of baptism of the Spirit. The same thing, an overpowering something then loss of physical control and intelligible speech."

May anyone who can, judge if this sounds like one who is suggesting to test the spirit by looking at relevant markers or it sounds like one who is conclusive that the baptism is conterfeit? Because perhaps I am missing it.

Interestingly, I did not speak in toungues (referred to as "intelligible speech") the day I was baptised - not until a week or two or so. This is why it seems pointless to speak to sister Brenda at times. And as hard as it has been to give in, maybe it is time to start looking at her baptism's authenticity. Because many of the fruits she has to offer do not appear Christ-like at all.

PS. Yes I shall certainly apologize should I eventually be brought to see I had missed something.

PS. For now what I am getting is that I am lying by the below:

"I did not think what our sister brought up was personal as I saw brother Colins' baptism was, by her, also brought into questioning (this was infact where I first hoped in yeasterd)."

A sample of my baptism's questioning during our private discourses:

"Brother you withhold the staple Pentecostal practices such as speaking in tongues brought about by their pseudo baptism of the Spirit and the whole system although you differ on various things it is a huge influence on your beliefs I believe but I will try not to say you are Pentecostal when you refuse it."