A longing for purity and for the presence of God

I think i battle with these things all the time

1 John 2:16
For everything in the world””the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life””comes not from the Father but from the world.

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God

I wish I could have a pure heart

Psalm 86:11
Teach me your way, Lord, that I may rely on your faithfulness; give me an undivided heart, that I may fear your name.

Exodus 33:15
Then Moses said to him, "If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here.

I so long for the presence of God as it feels like a billion miles away

Psalm 51
New King James Version
A Prayer of Repentance
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

51 Have mercy upon me, O God,
According to Your lovingkindness;
According to the multitude of Your tender mercies,
Blot out my transgressions.
2
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin.

3
For I acknowledge my transgressions,
And my sin is always before me.
4
Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight””
That You may be found just [a]when You speak,
And blameless when You judge.

5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6
Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.

7
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8
Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
9
Hide Your face from my sins,
And blot out all my iniquities

Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11
Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

12
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
13
Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners shall be converted to You.

14
Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,
The God of my salvation,
And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15
O Lord, open my lips,
And my mouth shall show forth Your praise.
16
For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart””
These, O God, You will not despise.

18
Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19
Then You shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
With burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then they shall offer bulls on Your altar.

There are three different hebrew words used for iniquity or sin used in this passage

and when we sin like we all do we sin against god

I feel like I have sinned against god whenever we sin

I so want to have a pure heart, I wish that like a computer that god can service me

Hello Dom

It is wonderful that you are hungering and thirsting for righteousness. God wants a pure heart for you as much as you want it. I encourage you to read the testimonies of those of the Great Awakenings in America.

What is the usual teaching is, that you 'make the way straight for the Lord' by writing down your sins and putting right the ones you can - like restoring things stolen in the past.

I found Oswald Chambers very helpful, and The Normal Christian Life by Nee and can give you some links.

The pure heart was considered by the early church as the psychological healing we all need on our way to full union with Christ and the peace and joy that brings. Praying for you brother.

Dom I don't know if you have come across this web site:

https://enterhisrest.net/index.htm

It has a lot of testimonies therein. I knew brother Tom Plumb for a few years before he went to be with the Lord and we discussed our disagreements about Keswick theology so I don't go along with everything he taught, but his teaching was certainly on the pathway to holiness therefore valuable, the history of the Holiness Movement very much so.

"What is the usual teaching is, that you 'make the way straight for the Lord' by writing down your sins and putting right the ones you can - like restoring things stolen in the past."

Brother it must start here, then admit any sins as the Holy Spirit pushes you to anyone you have sinned against period! At this point you know you need to apologize and come clean. One of the many things having the Holy Spirit living within us is He reveals things we need to correct, for peace to come sometimes we have to be honest with others. Listen to the Holy Spirit brother, it is better to obey God, submit, and let what may come, then to grieve the Holy Spirit of God. Better all to look down on us then to be at odds with God dear brother. He above all else matters.

Can you, dear brother, tell if you 'have received the Holy Spirit' since you believed? I ask because this requires a different approach if not.

brendaM

https://enterhisrest.net/index.htm

I know the guy who has taken over that website since Tom Plumb has passed away. I was attending online Holiness meetings with Him. Frank Warner, George Delo and Warren Larkin all attend these online meetings.

Don't know if you any of these guys.

DeltaDom Quote: I wish I could have a pure heart.

If you look at the scripture blessed are the pure in heart.

It also means being of a single mind.

Which ties in with the verse you mention

Psalm 86:11
Teach me your way, Lord, that I may rely on your faithfulness; give me an undivided heart, that I may fear your name.

The heart is the mind, will and emotions.

It's a worth while study..

Colin, I contacted George Delo, whose email address was on Tom's site, after I heard of Tom's death, when I could not get the link to work. George told me the circumstances surrounding his death that I was very sorry to hear as I was very concerned that Tom had started taking some medication which was very much contraindicated while there is a diet that would have been effective and safe to slowly detox.

I had been in contact with Tom for theological discussion and health issues, for a number of years, after hearing on Enter His Rest, that he, like myself was badly poisoned with mercury and looking for answers in natural medicine. His was not due to medications like mine, but from clumsy amalgam removal.

George put me in touch with Frank and I later met Warren at the online meetings and wanted to have contact with Warren because he said a few things that made me think he was in agreement with me, as opposed to the others and I still have not been able to make that contact.

I don't know whether you know or not, but the others all subscribe to Keswick theology whereby I differ. This theology was a later development to the traditional holiness one which has its roots in the early church fathers.

As the online meeting is for teaching, I foresaw that they would not offer me a place to with join that, but only for correcting me. I am not saying they are way out or anything, just that theirs is not the full teaching and misleads from that found in the ECF's which goes further than Keswick.

Hi - I think I remember you, your microphone wasn't to good, dark shoulder length hair, with glasses?

What is ECF'S?

Eastern Church Fathers? I also see you mention George Fox was you are Friend at some point.

Yes that's right!

Early church fathers. The early early ones definitely pre Nicene ones up to 3rd century. They soon had errors internally.

I came across the early Quaker writings at the same time as I was reading holiness writings from the great revivals and found Fox to be very enlightened taught directly from God, but soon the Quakers went south after he died. Quaker Barclays' Apology available online is a good read. It took me out of Protestantism way before Orthodoxy confirmed their writings on holiness and the pure heart.

And that is the issue I would say. Any good movement is never immune to going south. So we are ever forced to glen with caution here and caution there. And never to throw out a movement in a maner that would seem like a baby and the bathing water. Great revivals seem to end in sadness.

That's because they do not have a firm foundation that they are fleeting. There should be no such thing as a revival - we should all be revived all of the time.

I have mentioned one issue - the refusal to accept the authority of the church at the beginning on the Filioque - yes it makes a big difference to ones theology - and allow heresy in. The whole of the west has fallen step by step and just look at how western civilization has fallen - all due to the church failing repeatedly to keep to that which was once delivered to the saints.

Sister I agree with you. We at best are suppose to be revived at all times. But it sadly seems like we cannot pay the price required to sustain the fire. So we eventually fall back to lukewarm and coldness. And then have to start over to get back to the fire (revival). Or do you know of a place where this is the case (fire always) - yes I am ashamed to ask this? You mentioned that the Orthodox eventually drifted off too. It just seems evident that whenever the Church is on fire, the devil pull up his socks too!

The teaching that leads to constant revival aka entire sanctification or Thesosis continued till quite recent times (1990) in Orthodoxy but the opposing side gained more power over that time after being found even in the NT amongst those that opposed Paul. It has been wiped out in the rest of the church apart from a few pockets but is seeing a comeback.

They did not have revivals in the early church - they stayed revived or they never were.

I still do not believe that there was an age where error (the devil) was not threatening. Paul essentially said to the Galatians: "Who has bewitched you?" Having began in the fire (Spirit) now you are drifting away to coldness?

You did not read my post properly and I have no time to keep saying the same things to you as before.

I have already noted twice (on another thread) that it is possible to get wrong. Unless if you believe I am for the enemy I would expect you kindly point out where I am having you repeat your self like one whose time is not their own but the Lord's. You mentioned there were no revivals or they were never revived. Paul also said to a group that my rebuking you has led to repeatence. Shall we not call that revival? The Church of Laodicean was found lukewarm by Christ. Did they not need a revival. Really sorry if I am just missing your points.

I said 'the opposing side gained more power over that time after being found even in the NT amongst those that opposed Paul.'

Many in the early years were in error not surprisingly. Paul and the other Apostles had to labour with them to show them the truth as teachers of holiness. When there were more teachers, the church could grow with revived peoples which were called saints and had halos round their heads in early art.

Writing is a bit sparse during this change-over period.

Ok I see what I had missed. But take the church of Laodicean and duplicate its state a few times and lets see if we will not be having dryness that looks like our modern day? Notice Christ did not blame the Appostles for not ensuring the Church of Laodicea is sound but blamed the Church itself. Several (Laodicean churches) in our modern day needs a revival to get rid of their lukewarm and return to fire.

P.S: I say duplicate becuase Christedom has grown eversince them. So we wont have one church of Laodicean but a number of them. But the same way Laodicean grew cold can account for the many cold today. And revival is needed.

But they need a revival based on a firm foundation that will withstand the storms that follow. If they believe that we can only keep our 'old man' under control and not eradicated, then he will slip back so very easily.

This is what Keswick does, it promises much but delivers little because man does not like to accept that he should be without sin or out of the blessing. His sin nature wants a bit of 'elbow room'.

Kervin I suggest you get onto Enter His Rest:

https://enterhisrest.net/index.htm

and study the subject with its wealth of holiness writings to get a basis in it instead of asking me to hold your hand to understand higher teachings. Especially testimonies.

I will gladly answer questions from people who have done their own homework.

Exactly which revival quality is best is a different subject, sister. The point is that they needed revival after being taught by one of the best teachers. Meaning this can clearly repeat itself. Adam had been taught by God himself and needed revival later in his life. I therefore feel your last post is not warranted at all, sister?

I wanted to slip in a couple other very good resources regarding entire sanctification.

Oswald Chambers - Our Brilliant Heritage

Norman Grubb - Yes, I am

And both the biography of Rees Howells and the CT Studd

This little group is always overlooked regarding teaching the truths of biblical sanctification - but I think they are among the best of them (Watchman Nee is also very good, Corrie Ten Boom, Whitall-Smith). The teaching has never died out, just been held onto by the little flock - often in forgotten obscurity

Duplicate

Brother, sister brendaM purports that there were no needed revivals in the early Church or ECFs era. Any good teching that is presented incorrectly or unfairly runs a great risk of failure. Because the church of Laodicea is a good example. Entire sanctification is very much welcomed as far as the scriptues can support it.

P.S: Once proven that it was needed, then she moves on to the quality of revival they would needed. Why not admit that she was incorrect that no revival was needed first?

I never said that and it is why I am reluctant to get into discussion with you. I said that one who is truly revived with a firm foundation will not slip away like what we have seen so often in the revivals in the west. They stay revived. Laodicea may have had incorrect teaching we do not know. But there will always be some ES'ed in a church and some not.

You are trying to generalize too much. And also bring spiritual things down to mans' understanding.

I also said that man can fall from that position but the scriptural evidence is that he is restored. I agree with your list Evan.

"They did not have revivals in the early church - they stayed revived or they never were."

Am I missing something on the above quoted text?

P.S: Christ would not say they are lukewarm if they were never hot. Wont call them a church if they never were.

I will qualify - once revived they did not need to keep getting revived they tended to stay there or they otherwise had never been revived. Paul and Peter fell from it once each but were restored.

Israel needed revivals many times - despite getting it from the best men of God. I will let brother Evan reply to your comment if he would? As for me I feel you often discuss unfairly, sister brenda. I now need to facilitate class for my boys. I should hopefully catch up afterwards (around 1.5 hours).

In an effort not have my words twisted and misunderstood like those before me, I would much rather see believers accept Keswick theology, believe their old nature is subdued, find it isn't then come seeking further enlightenment, than not seek at all.

"If I made my case with the wisdom of words and you became convinced by my wise argument, you would choose to believe me because it would seem like the "good" and "wise" thing to do. As a result, the message that is designed to destroy our confidence in our own wisdom would ultimately strengthen your confidence instead. So, the entire purpose of God's plan would be destroyed by me breaking it all down in a way that you could understand in your own flesh. If I describe it with plainness and simplicity so that you do not need the help of God (the Holy Spirit) to understand, you will always see your belief as of yourself and not something that is of God. And because of this, you will never be able to cease looking down your nose at those who did not make the same wise choice that you made to believe something that was so clear and obvious."

Oh very good though not on the same subject thanks Jason.

Sorry sister but English is but a 2nd language for me. May you please clarify what you meant by 'I will qualify'. So that I can hopefully see how I may have misunderstood or twisted your words.

"They did not have revivals in the early church - they stayed revived or they never were."

I will explain, that there was no talk of revivals amongst the ECF. People came to see the truth through preaching and they thereafter walked as Christ walked. Of course some who heard the full gospel rejected it and said 'we cannot stop sinning in this life'. I have not found writings that talk about revival as such, that is revival of God's people after going lukewarm. Of course there is Laodicia where men were cold but the reason for it is not remembered by me though I will have a look again.

Please do kindly check because even when Paul asked Galatians who had bewitched them, they were drifting too I understand. If he never intervened like he did (a revivalist in a figure), they could have sank into coldness - and eventually deadness?

P.S: Were they not taught the truth? Paul testifies himself that they began in the Spirit. But there they were drifting therefrom later - so much that he thought them be-witched?

They had started well but did it go on to perfection.

Right, so Paul is dealing with pride amongst the Galatians in my understanding. They started relying on their own strength instead of God's. It is a danger in the spiritual journey, in forgetting we are nothing and He is all.

Someone has influenced them away from Paul's teaching that it is Christ's righteousness alone on which we stand but the temptation is always there to start to look at ourselves and our gifts and think we are superior.

Without Christ we are all wretched men.

Sister again I will say: it seems you have usable insight but the way you deliver it is very sad. Frankly, you exhibit confusion in a way that is saddening and you will not easily admit when you had been wrong. Trying to help the Kingdom of God by your strenght - or being consistent is just beyond you?

You first held there was no need for revival. After I proved there was, you got so angry that I said you said there was no need for a revival. One or two posts back you went back to mantaining there was no need for a revival. Now you are back implicitly agreeing there was a need for a revival after the Galatian folks had been enfluenced by someone who brought error (which is true but that is another subject).

I do not not know about others but I feel we need to agree when we had been wrong so that glory may be to God -

This is a complicated subject hence the false idea that there is confusion about it. It is also a subject that has just sort of sprung up and I have not had time to study it in depth as yet in my readings.

Using a second language will hinder one but also will firing random questions on minor details to the other end, distracting from the main picture, which has been going on for two months between us, barely giving me time keep up, in the 20 or so emails I have had a day and then picking up on a small thing to discredit everything else. This is what the Pharisees did.

The subject I am trying to address is why modern day revivals soon fade, and even within one generation the fire has gone. This is an established fact hence my attempts to show it was not the norm in the early years of the church once it was set up and functioning.

I am attempting to show that it is because the full state of entire sanctification was not taught or attained, and it will quickly prove to be disappointing to all involved, whereas in early times, after churches were established and where enough of these mature leaders were in place so that travel in often treacherous conditions were not as necessary, to deal with various the various crisis that developed in the churches..

During NT times, the church was in its infancy and although correct teaching was given, the teachers themselves were in short supply hence their need to travel in often dangerous circumstances (like the sea) in order to take the advanced teaching of ES to those who had heard about Christ and come to Him for forgiveness but still had no-one who could lead them on to perfection which is not so easy from distant writings without the sort of communication we have today.

I claim one sign that the truth that the full teaching is not being given today is that the early church fathers I have read, never spoke of a need for revival and they seemed to take for granted that people knew what Theosis was so by that time it was well circulated but I am not an expert on patristic writings.

John 14:26 Jesus says to His disciples, "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." This shows that once the Holy Spirit baptizes the believer, they are taught directly, so it holds. It does not 'hold' in the revivals we have seen here.

The teaching of Theosis or ES in the west, was not the same thing, in that there was another stage beyond what has been accepted by the mainstream denominations in revivals. Here there is the emphasis that it is not possible to be sinless in this life. But in the patristic period, it was taught. That is not to say that it was never taught over here. But in the main, not.

Perhaps I should not look to this area at all to show my opinions on what is going wrong and leave others to find out themselves from the Holy Spirit if indeed they are true seekers and not just looking from idle curiosity.

As a side note, the Galatians had not fully attained ES as they had not yet finished so no revival needed. They had not yet reached the stage of 'life' which needed to be restored, they had just got lost on their journey.

As a side note, the Galatians had not fully attained ES as they had not yet finished so no revival needed. They had not yet reached the stage of 'life' which needed to be restored, they had just got lost on their journey.

I have asked brother Evan on this thread https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=66535&forum=35 to advise his thoughts on when ES actually comes because I do not believe for a second that the Galatians were not Holy Spirit baptised (and you asserted previously that ES comes or is perfected at baptism). I will reserved the rest of my comments for now for Christ's sake.

Feels bad that we seem to have eventually taken over this thread. May brother Dominic both reclaim and retain it until the original purpose thereto is by him availed.

Feels bad that we seem to have eventually taken over this thread. May brother Dominic both reclaim as well as retain it until the original purpose thereto is by him availed.

Hello Dom

It is wonderful that you are hungering and thirsting for righteousness. God wants a pure heart for you as much as you want it. I encourage you to read the testimonies of those of the Great Awakenings in America.

What is the usual teaching is, that you 'make the way straight for the Lord' by writing down your sins and putting right the ones you can - like restoring things stolen in the past.

I found Oswald Chambers very helpful, and The Normal Christian Life by Nee and can give you some links.

The pure heart was considered by the early church as the psychological healing we all need on our way to full union with Christ and the peace and joy that brings. Praying for you brother.
---------------------

I actually read watchmen nee and oswald chambers quite alot when I was about 14 I have been meaning to post on here

With the world that we live in there is pornography and other things that we have to battle against in this world

oswald chambers only wrote one book :) his wife wrote all his other literature.

I want to answer all the other things that have been brought up and some emails

I need prayer for work at this time.

I think I have read most of the Great Awakening literature and I have read David Brainerds book

I sometimes wish that God could wash me in his blood and fire bombers of love in my life

goodness in them, than there would be in my paddling with my hand in the water, (which was the comparison I had then in my mind,) and this because they were not performed from any love or regard to God. I saw that I had been heaping up my devotions before God, fasting, praying, &c. pretending, and indeed really thinking sometimes, that I was aiming at the glory of God; whereas I never once truly intended it, but only my own happiness. I saw, that as I had never done any thing for God, I had no claim on any thing from him, but perdition, on account of my hypocrisy and mockery. Oh how different did my duties now appear from what they used to do! I used to charge them with sin and imperfection; but this was only on account of the wanderings and vain thoughts attending them, and not because I had no regard to God in them; for this I thought I had. But when I saw evidently that I had regard to nothing but self-interest, then they appeared a vile mockery of God, self-worship, and a continual course of lies; so that I now saw that something worse had attended my duties, than barely a few wanderings, &c.; for the whole was nothing but self-worship, and a horrid abuse of God.

Brainerd, David; Jonathan Edwards. The Life and Diary of David Brainerd . Kindle Edition.

I wish I had this type of love

"Out of the Wreck I Rise” Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Romans 8:35 God does not keep a man immune from trouble; He says””"I will be with him in trouble.” It does not matter what actual troubles in the most extreme form get hold of a man’s life, not one of them can separate him from his relationship to God. We are "more than conquerors in all these things.” Paul is not talking of imaginary things, but of things that are desperately actual; and he says we are super-victors in the midst of them, not by our ingenuity, or by our courage, or by anything other than the fact that not one of them affects our relationship to God in Jesus Christ. Rightly or wrongly, we are where we are, exactly in the condition we are in. I am sorry for the Christian who has not something in his circumstances he wishes was not there. "Shall tribulation . . . ?” Tribulation is never a noble thing; but let tribulation be what it may””exhausting, galling, fatiguing, it is not able to separate us from the love of God. Never let cares or tribulations separate you from the fact that God loves you. "Shall . . . anguish . . . ?” (RV)””can God’s love hold when everything says that His love is a lie, and that there is no such thing as justice? "Shall . . . famine . . . ?”””can we not only believe in the love of God but be more than conquerors, even while we are being starved? Either Jesus Christ is a deceiver and Paul is deluded, or some extraordinary thing happens to a man who holds on to the love of God when the odds are all against God’s character. Logic is silenced in the face of every one of these things. Only one thing can account for it””the love of God in Christ Jesus. "Out of the wreck I rise” every time.

Chambers, Oswald. My Utmost for His Highest: Classic Language (A Daily Devotional with 366 Bible-Based Readings) . Discovery House. Kindle Edition.

I hope god can do this with me

In one of david brainerds writing he talks about the presence of god and it is what i need so badly

I think I am following what you are saying, brother. I would like to assume that you reckon yourself baptised in the Holy Spirit of God right? If yes, then the best we others can do is pray together with you. However if not, then we would need to first understand how you remain without the baptism of the Holy Sporit of God. And like I advise, the approach would be different. I, by the working of God, do not voluntary navigate to pornography sources I can testify that (amongs many other victories).