David Bennet War of Loves - is it ok for Christians be gay and stay celibate?

David Bennet War of Loves - is it ok for Christians be gay and stay celibate?

Recently this topic was brought up in our church. An elder used his book as his story line. I scratched my head to say the least.

I have not read the book but listen to David’s story and position in a couple of videos. You can check it on YouTube.
David used to be an atheist and gay activist but had a real conversion experience and was later filled with the Holy Spirit. He dropped his lifestyle and left his gay community. He went on to study theology and earned a DPhil. His position in brief is the following. He believes man is created in God’s image as male and female and that could me hetero or homosexual. He remains gay and but celibate and does not engage in sexual activity. In essence, he identifies as being gay. He believes it is ok to remain gay and that it is something to be celebrated, but he submits to the commandment of the bible, not to practice such things. This puts him at odds with the LGBTQA community and many gay Christian proponents, but he maintains friendly relations with the Christian gay community.

He justifies his position with reference to 2 bible passaged that deals with eunuchs:
Isa 56:4-5 For thus says the Lord:
"To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose the things that please me
and hold fast my covenant,
5 I will give in my house and within my walls
a monument and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that shall not be cut off.

and

Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

I do not think that the description of the eunuch can be applied to homosexual Christians. This applies to men castrated as boys, or those born with a physical disorder or those who chose not to marry so that they can do things that are inconvenient for those who are married.

While I believe it is laudable that David abstains from practicing homosexuality, I have concerns about his position. I also understand that gay people often struggle a great deal with rejection, bullying, self-rejection, and suicidal thoughts. Many have been abused before they came out as gay. So we deal with deeply wounded people.

Remaining gay and celebrating it
When someone is born again, he is a new creation in Christ, the old is gone. The first thing the born again does is stop sinning and break sinful habits. We know of countless testimonies of people breaking free from besetting sin in an instant. The second thing that must take place is the transformation of what we were into the image of Christ. This involves the continuous process of sanctification.

In 1 Cor 6:9-11 (KJV) Paul lists a number of people that will not enter heaven:
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
BTW the ESV, says only "who practice homosexuality”. This translation only excludes the practice, not the state of being effeminate or homosexual. The Greek text however uses the adjectival form μαλακοὶ meaning to be effeminate, and the abusers of mankind in the substantival form.

So that means that I not only have to stop doing sinful things, but it also involves ceasing to be such a person. It is erroneous to say that I stopped stealing but I am still thief, or a drunkard who does not touch alcohol.

I am asking myself, is it ok for a Christian to say I remain gay but just cease practicing it? What does the bible actually say to gays who become born again? Should they become straight and be attracted to the opposite sex? Should they become asexual if they cannot become straight? Does that solve the problem?

Continual struggle?
We all struggle with temptations, and we need to battle as long as we live in our fallen body. David’s position would mean that a Christian gay person will have continual desires in his/her heart that can never have a legitimate consummation. I think it is absurd to think that God would commit anyone to temptations that spring from an unchangeable identity. It is like Paul’s example of a sow that can’t help to wallow in mud, even after you washed it.

1 Cor 6:11 says "and such WERE some of you. This is past tense, the old is gone, we are justified and sanctified. Christ dissolves all bands of misaligned identity that are a result of sin. This is something every Christian is entitled to and we need to take it by faith.

What position should the church take?
These people need our help and love, but true love does not shun the truth. I do believe that a born-again Christian can cease to BE a drunkard, an idolater or a homosexual. These are not intrinsic identities we are born with but a besetting sins that distorts the identity of humans created in the image of God.

Danger
We Christians easily cringe being called bigots. That needs to stop. Nobody who is surrendered to Jesus and lives a godly life is a bigot, just the opposite is true. I believe David makes some good points, and again I applaud his conviction that homosexuality must not be practiced by a Christian, but he does not offer help to those who came out of this lifestyle and want to become completely free.
Could we trust such a person with children’s ministry? Would such a person not try to encourage young people to identify as gay?

I am also concerned that his position is a very cunning attempt to introduce and legitimate homosexuality into the church. We must not forget that the LGBTQ movement is the very edge of the sword of Christian persecution in the West. Countless Christians have been prosecuted or lost their jobs or business because of their campaigns.
They whine that Christians reject homosexuals but at the same time they are relentless in their effort to enter the church and turn things upside down.

I see it as a Trojan horse, we must be on our guard.

If the guy truly has homosexual feelings he can either be truthful about it, lie about it, or say nothing. A Christian alcoholic can either admit it, lie about it, or say nothing. What neither must do is submit to their feelings. Celibacy or abstinence is required.

I think it’s naive to suggest every born again homosexual will always be delivered of those feelings. So it seems the best course is to say nothing and stay celibate so as not to cause a brother or sister to stumble.

Narrowpath,

> I see it as a Trojan horse, we must be on our guard.

I had a forum thread on this issue back in 2016, where I expressed concern about unbiblical theological trends amongst evangelicals at the time. Everything I had predicted has since come to pass.

"The Trojan Horse of LGBT Concepts, and the Lack of Gospel Transformation"
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=58125&forum=35

The slope has definitely proven to be very slippery.

There's this concept known as "Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg

Many articles and books have been written on the LGBT issue - some are clearly unbiblical; others may provide refutation of certain pro-LGBT points, but usually fail to "refute the central point" or deal with the core theological issues (as per "Graham's hierarchy").

We must be clear as to what the central theological issues are, and address them accordingly. I believe these are the core issues at stake, all of which are related to the gospel's integrity and power:

1. LGBT lusts are a sin (Matt 5:27-30, Romans 1:26-27)

The usage of worldly vocabulary to substantiate unbiblical views is a sin (2 Timothy 2:15-17, 2 Peter 3:14-18). Likewise, the adoption of worldly identity labels (e.g. "transgender Christian", "gay Christian", "alcoholic Christian", "porn-addicted Christian") is a sin.

To that end, it is helpful if Christian communities stick to biblical vocabulary and avoid euphemisms conceived by man. For instance: the correct term is "same-sex lust", not "same-sex attraction" or "same-sex love" (the LGBT issue has nothing to do with attraction or love at all).

2. The gospel provides two central things:

(i) justification by faith in God's grace (forgiveness of sins) ”“ Ephesians 2:8-9

(ii) sanctification by faith in God's grace (set free from the power of sin; this reality is experienced through renewing of the mind) ”“ Romans 6:14, Romans 12:2, 2 Cor 5:17. Ezekiel 36:26, John 8:31-32

This sanctification is already 100% done (that's what "born again" as a new creation means). However, experiencing this reality is not automatic ”“ it needs to be actively believed, i.e. appropriated by faith. Transformation comes by renewing our minds with the truth (Romans 12:2) ”“ and this is an act of faith.

Christians can continue to struggle with addictions, heterosexual lusts, LGBT lusts and habitual sins because they do not know, or do not believe, certain truths concerning their identity or concerning who God is. Ask God and study His Word ”“ He will guide you to the necessary truths that you need to renew your mind with, that you too would experience transformation and freedom (John 16:13, Romans 12:2).

As people renew their minds, they will increasingly experience their new creation identity ”“ lusts and sinful cravings will diminish over time, and eventually will totally disappear. You will experience freedom from bondage in a very real way.

Whatever the struggle, the Lord Jesus guarantees 100% freedom for the struggling Christian in this life (John 8:31-32) ”“ it just has to be received by faith. The sanctification doctrine (a.k.a. "sanctification method") which works for others will work for you too.

TMK,

Know that I'm responding out of good will:

> I think it’s naive to suggest every born again homosexual will always be delivered of those feelings.

I cannot agree with that, because:

1. There is no Bible verse which substantiates that view (in fact, the Bible states the opposite ”“ as I articulated in my earlier posts)

2. It fails to explain: (i) why some people get set free while others don't, despite facing similar struggles and having similar backgrounds; (ii) why some ministries have many testimonies of freedom, while other ministries have zero testimonies (I had earlier attributed the difference to understanding of sanctification doctrine)

(continued in next post)

As I see it, in dealing with the LGBT issue, every Christian community has to decide between two theological positions:

”“ Position (i): Most, if not all, strugglers do not get healed in this life.

”“ Position (ii): There is healing available for every struggler in this life.

We have to choose carefully, together with God, which of the two positions on which to build our theology. There can be no middleground between the two, because: proper sanctification doctrine (a.k.a. "sanctification method") is either effective for everyone, or ineffective for everyone.

Some remarks:

1. We cannot surrender on the truth that is Position (ii), because truth builds upon truth, and error builds upon error (Galatians 5:9).

2. I've been a Christian long enough to remember a time when Position (i) was eschewed by many, if not most, evangelical churches. Sadly, Position (i) has become increasingly popular over the past decade - particularly amongst churches with zero testimonies of freedom. But the lack of testimonies and ineffectiveness of their ministries only prove that their "sanctification method"/"sanctification doctrine" is erroneous ”“ there is no evidence that their methods work whatsoever.

Some churches have instead built a huge theological edifice on the basis of Position (i), often referencing the fleshly opinions of man (e.g. preferred theologians; so-called "gay celibate Christians") rather than Scripture. I've observed these churches inevitably end in disaster, with untold damage done to people (including congregants departing from the faith, after being told they had no hope of transformation).

Position (i) is indeed one of the greatest deceptions of this era, as it directly negates the sanctification provisions of the gospel (this, in turn, invariably opens the door for other perverse doctrines). Rather than "having a form of godliness but denying its power" (2 Timothy 3:5), it would have been wiser for those churches to humble themselves and seek God ”“ reconsider their theology with Him, admit that their ministry lacks power, and admit there is much more in the Bible they have yet to experience.

3. We are living in a time where wives could be waking up and stating to their husbands, "I'm a man, call me he/him", and kids are being conditioned at an early age to adopt non-biblical identities and develop perverse sexual desires. If the preached message is that there is no practical hope of change for them (as per Position (i)), how can that message be attractive? How can that be good news? Is not such preaching "a form of godliness but denying its power"?

I'm glad that the Christian gospel offers a different message ”“ a message that has power. Everyone who actively renews their mind and appropriates their identity in Christ (acts of faith) experiences freedom ”“ I don't know of any exceptions.

Yuehan- I don’t disagree with what you are saying really. I think it would be nice if all persons had all their impure thoughts and habits instantly removed when they are born again but we know this is not true. But I also believe there is victory in the Lord.

I found a really good talk on this topic
Christopher Yuan used to be gay and a drug dealer. He got miraculously saved in prison and abandoned this lifestyle.

I find him much more biblical in his approach.

You can watch his video here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk4gqp4qTk8&t=3709s

He says some very interesting things:

Homo- and heterosexual are not attributes that identify a person. Christ is our identity and he created us male and female.

He does not believe that homo- or heterosexuality are an identity we can define us, he instead defines "holysexuality" as a more apropriate term.

Heterosexuality can only be consumed within a marriage between one man and one women, all other practises of heterosexuality are sinful.

A Christian can only live single and abstay from sex or have sex within marriage.

He does not condone Revoice's approach to homosexual Christians, but maintains that Christians who were gay should no longer use the term "gay" as an identifiying attribute.

As 1.Cor 6:9-11 says
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.\t10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11And such WERE some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.\t

//but maintains that Christians who were gay should no longer use the term "gay" as an identifiying attribute.//

I certainly agree- that’s what I meant below about stumbling other believers. There is no need to announce anything to anybody.

Let's have something practical and concrete on biblical sanctification doctrine ”“

If a person believes there is freedom from sinful desires (as per John 8:36), how can he experience that freedom for himself?

I believe the following are excellent resources, with a focus on real experience and practical application:

1. Dustin Horstmann's two-part testimony on freedom from lust:

Part 1: http://bit.ly/2fD8AmH

Part 2: http://bit.ly/2kgFOxg

Dustin used to be a missionary to Taiwan. He provides a very clear exposition of Romans, explaining how God taught him to move from the struggle of Romans 7 to the victory in Romans 8. He is clear that this freedom is available to every believer.

2. "The Power of Right Believing" (Joseph Prince)

Amazon link: https://amzn.com/dp/1455553166

This is a very practical book on how the believer can experience freedom from addictions, lusts, bondages, toxic thoughts and emotions, etc. It contains many, many testimonies of transformation testifying to the grace of God.

Theologically, it is broadly similar to the Keswick approach to sanctification ”“ i.e. "sanctification by faith" (see this video for an overview of Keswick: https://youtu.be/B521XpqmJVE). However, the traditional Keswick approach has certain weaknesses and errors. Joseph Prince and Andrew Farley are excellent at rectifying these flaws, accounting for the effectiveness of their ministries.

I've seen testimonies of people attesting to finding freedom from homosexual desires through his ministry. I know that Dustin agrees with him on sanctification matters too.

This is a very safe book to recommend to Christians ”“ I agree with every sentence that is written (which I might not necessarily say of the author's other books). So long as you're a good Berean, you'll be fine.

"However, the traditional Keswick approach has certain weaknesses and errors. Joseph Prince and Andrew Farley are excellent at rectifying these flaws, accounting for the effectiveness of their ministries."

Hi. Rather than having to buy the book, could you give a sum of their teachings please and the flaws as you see them? Thanks.

BrendaM,

Sure, I'll start a new thread on it. Time's a bit tight for me in recent days; let me do it sometime next week.

Narrowpath,

Regarding Christopher Yuan - you missed the subtle but critical flaws concerning Christopher Yuan's theology.

Before I respond, here are some questions for you to consider:

1. What does "homosexual" ("gay") biblically mean? (1 Cor 6:9-11) Biblically, is that in reference to a disposition/orientation or a behaviour?

2. What is the Lord Jesus' definition of "holy sexuality"? (Matthew 5:27-30) If someone is sexually chaste, but burning with lustful desires, is that "holy sexuality"?

3. What are the rightful sexual desires of the "new creation"? (Ephesians 4:24)

4. There are many Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists, even atheists and agnostics who struggle with LGBT desires, yet they remain sexually chaste. What practical difference can Christianity offer these people? Or is a Christian struggler identical to a Mormon/Muslim/Buddhist/atheist struggler?

Would it be ok for someone to say "I'm a christian pedophile but I don't act on it?"

The answer is self evident.

However, the traditional Keswick approach has certain weaknesses and errors. Joseph Prince and Andrew Farley are excellent at rectifying these flaws, accounting for the effectiveness of their ministries.

Andrew Murray and T. Austin Sparks are my most favourite Christian authors.

Major Ian Thomas’ books are also very good.

I know that Andrew Murray spoke at Keswick conventions. That was how I knew about Keswick. But I have not read other Keswick authors.

Andrew Murray’s teachings on holiness are very good to me.

I read Joseph Prince’s book "The Power of Right Believing” a few years ago. I agree with many things he wrote. But his teachings are certainly not superior to Andrew Murray’s teachings.

Hi Yuehan,

[1. What does "homosexual" ("gay") biblically mean? (1 Cor 6:9-11) Biblically, is that in reference to a disposition/orientation or a behavior?]

I would even go further; it is not only a matter of disposition but it has to do with identity.
There is a problem with bible translations involved.

The KJV reads
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
The ESV reads
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

The Greek TR uses the substantival form μαλακοὶ which means effeminate persons, homosexuals and ἀρσενοκοῖται practitioners of homosexuality.

There is a world of difference between the substantival state of being homosexual and the verbal form of practicing such a thing. The first one has to do with identity, the latter circumvents the identity issue and only rules out the practice.

The bible is clear, those who identifies as such will not enter heaven, regardless if the practice is stopped or not.

Further it says, in Verse 11 such WERE some of you, it is past tense, it has been done away with.
There may be still temptations but both the habit has been broken and the identity as a homosexual surrendered to Christ.

This is one of the reasons I do not trust modern bible translations, they take liberties not only in translation but almost always in softening and mellowing the meaning.

Yuan states, homosexuality is not an attribute that is created by God for good, such as male, female, ethnicity, and the like. It is not an identity that you can claim for yourself. It is not like Lady Gaga says: "Born that way” but it is a distorted false identity that is based on the desire to legitimize their sinful behavior rather than something that I am born with and cannot change.

Homosexuality is clearly defined as sinful in itself, and for a Christian homosexuality cannot be sanctified even if he stops practicing it.

Bennet believes homosexuality falls into the category of God created attributes, but the bible clearly refutes it. Bennet, as many homosexuals, claims that someone who rejects this identity rejects something that God created.

I find this argumentation very dangerous. Not only does he assert that God created homosexuality, but by leaning on Isa 56:5 thinks he is an eunuch for the Lord that has a better lot than others and celebrates his homosexuality though he rules out the practice as sinful.
How can you celebrate a propensity to restrained sinful behavior?

It is unfathomable for me that God would tell us to stop being a person who falls into the categories under 1 Cor 6:9 and not give the means to break free.

If an idolater, thief, drunkard or extortioner can stop being such an one, why not the homosexual?

[2. What is the Lord Jesus' definition of "holy sexuality"? (Matthew 5:27-30) If someone is sexually chaste, but burning with lustful desires, is that "holy sexuality"?]
Christopher Yuan wants to do away with the category hetero- and homosexuality. I can understand that through his past he may struggle to transition to a man attracted to females, but he says he does not rule it out and has seen examples of men who did so. He may be in a state of asexuality. Anyway, I wholly agree on his point that identity in Christ is far superior to sexuality, and that there is only singleness in chastity or marriage confined to a lifelong partner of the opposite sex.

In Genesis 2:24 it says
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

I see this as a point that opposite sex attraction is still sort of normative but we know from Paul and Jeremia that the bible also commends singleness in chastity as a virtue.

Christopher Yuan also explains the reference to Ro 1:24 ”“ 32 to homosexuality:
Homosexuality is a form of God’s judgement, where he gives people over to vile affections because they do not acknowledge God as God against the witness of creation but worship the creature, and that creature is SELF, and that is in essence narcissism.

Now about Joseph Prince:
He preaches what some call "Hyper Grace”. In very crude terms, you are in charge of applying Gods grace to yourself, instead of asking God to forgive you.
This is not biblical, I find this teaching very dangerous, and I am right now dealing with people in my house group who have fallen for this heresy. It is hard to disentangle.

David Pawson tackles this issue at great length. Here is a synopsis https://youtu.be/fr0LvY33bU8

Hi Yuehan,

I agree with many things that Joseph Prince said in his book, "The Power of Right Believing”, but I think they must be correctly applied.

When you start your new thread, I hope you can also address these:

Joseph Prince said:

The most important thing is to first learn how God sees you…………Learn to see what God sees. He sees you in Christ Jesus, through the lens of the cross and through the precious blood that was shed for your redemption. Flush out all your wrong beliefs and see yourself as a precious gem, dearly beloved and close to God’s heart.

There is a prerequisite:
We must be IN Christ and Christ IN us before God sees us as He sees Christ. Andrew Murray strongly emphasized this. I don’t get that message being emphasized in Joseph Prince’s book.

Joseph Prince also wrote:

Ask God for big things in your life and expect good. He is a good God.

He applied this to earthly riches and worldly success and gave the inspiring testimony of Olivia Lum, who followed his teaching, and rose from utter poverty to become the richest woman in Southeast Asia.

Hyflux, her success story, collapsed and was finally wound up in July 2021. That is the conclusion of her story.

Blessings

Yuehan - John

Over the years you have posted some of Dustin Horstmann's stuff. As you know he is no longer a missionary any more and I am not sure if he is even involved in any ministry at this time. I think he would tell his testimony different now because it has been a number of years when he told that.

I think his emphases would be on the fact that It is CHRIST'S LIFE alone that saves us. Now His LIFE is a continuous life that is by second and by second WITHIN US AND SUPPLIES all that needed to totally satisfy God. It is not potential righteousness but HIS actual LIVING RIGHTEOUSNESS within us.

Hi narrowpath,

Dealing with this LGBT issue from a theological perspective is like defusing a time-bomb these days, because: (i) many layers of theological confusion have been introduced over the past 15 years; and (ii) Christians tend to discuss these issues using the language of the world, rather than with biblical language.

So I believe it's important to discuss this topic in a frank and straightforward manner, that we may rightly divide the Word and see things with clarity. While my answers will be direct and firm, do keep in mind that what I write is out of goodwill ”“ out of care for God and His people, and that includes you.

My statements and assertions in the following posts are carefully considered, and carefully weighted. Let me know should you require further substantiation (evidence, Scripture backing) for any of those statements.

1. On the LGBT issue, the most important question for every Christian and every church to resolve is this:

- Does God provide freedom from LGBT desires for the struggler, in this life?

This is a YES/NO question, and your choice of answer will determine how you build the rest of your theology. We must prayerfully resolve this from God, who promises: "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine..." (John 7:17)

If you choose YES (as per John 8:36), then the next step is just a matter of seeking the right sanctification doctrine (i.e. the "right sanctification method") from God. And your life and your ministry will have power, which can make a practical difference by the grace of God.

If you choose NO, you would have to create new doctrines and new church practices to deal with the increasing LGBT crowd. Many churches have chosen this path, and built their theology on the fundamental assumption there is no freedom in this life for strugglers ”“ e.g. the "Revoice" movement, the "LGBTQ+ Audit" for church practices, the "no healing" movement etc. But take a step back and look at the outcome ”“ it looks nothing like the New Testament church at all. And the world knows that ”“ it sees an organization which is bereft of power, and incapable of making a practical difference in people's lives.

2. As you're aware, my answer is a firm "YES, there is healing for the struggler" ”“ I have nailed my colours to that mast. I did not grow up in a powerless Christian tradition, and I know that power from my own experiences.

And I'm not alone in that ”“ in my circle of friends and acquaintances, I've known people who were freed from lust addictions (homosexual lusts, heterosexual lusts). I've seen Youtube testimonies of total freedom from LGBT desires, delivered in foreign languages. Even on this forum, there have been several testimonies from past participants attesting to 100% freedom from LGBT desires.

Only the truth of God can accomplish such transformation. There is one common thread among such testimonies: "what I couldn't do in my flesh, God did".

Perhaps you can look up such testimonies of transformation (from porn addiction, from LGBT desires, from drug addiction). They might be ordinary people with no formal ministry or theological credentials, but they are all taught by God Himself in the School of Christ.

Do you know this transformative power for yourself? Do you believe it exists?

3. Answers to some of the questions I had posed earlier:

(i) Biblically, the word "homosexual" ("gay") refers to people who engage in homosexual activity (as per 1 Cor 6:9-11).

Just as someone who struggles with stealing desires is not a "thief", and just as someone who struggles with transgender desires is not a "transgender" ”“ someone who struggles with homosexual desires is not a "homosexual".

In general, I'm very wary of non-biblical labels ”“ because they ultimately affect how people view themselves. But it's probably better to refer to those who struggle with LGBT desires as "strugglers".

(ii) Holiness is about having zero lustful desires outside the rightful union of one's marriage.

If you are celibate, and yet struggling with sexual lusts for other people in your mind ”“ Matthew 5:27-30 makes it clear that you are a sinner, you are not living a life of "holy sexuality" (no matter how it is defined), and Christ had to die for those lusts.

The standards of God's law are incredibly high ”“ we dishonour Him if we water down those standards to just being "celibate" or "sexually active within a marriage". You can do both those things and still be lusting for other people in your mind.

And because God's standards are incredibly high ”“ this amplifies how incredibly good the gospel of Jesus Christ is, which provides (i) forgiveness of sins, and (ii) freedom from the power of sin. This forgiveness exist, and likewise this freedom exists ”“ as attested to by past and present saints.

(iii) Whatever the final answers you arrive at on the LGBT topic, you must be able to explain :

(a) why some people get set free while others don't, despite facing similar struggles and having similar backgrounds;

(b) why some ministries have many testimonies of freedom, while other ministries have zero testimonies;

(c) what practical difference can Christianity offer to the struggler (or is a Christian struggler identical to a Mormon/Muslim/Buddhist/atheist struggler, many of whom are celibate)

4. Some comments on Christopher Yuan and the "gay celibate movement", whom you brought up:

”“ Christopher Yuan himself does not believe that freedom from LGBT desires is available to strugglers, and his theology is built on that assumption. So while he disagrees with adopting LGBT labels, his theology is similar to the "Revoice" movement on many points.

Yuan and "Revoice" are both part of the "gay celibate Christian" movement (though Yuan rightly rejects the usage of the "gay" label). Both commit the error of thinking the solution to LGBT lusts is "celibacy", when the biblical solution is to "be transformed by the renewing of one's mind" (Romans 12:2). (note: in Scripture, the issue of celibacy has nothing to do with homosexual lusts ”“ c.f. 1 Cor 7)

That Yuan continues to regularly struggle with homosexual lusts (by his own admission) is because he does not understand sanctification doctrine, he does not know how to renew his mind, and thus continues to be in bondage to homosexual lusts.

In so far as he assumes that there is no freedom from LGBT desires available to strugglers, Yuan has departed from the Bible and teaching error. He needs to seek God for the truth, that He too may experience the same freedom from homosexual lusts enjoyed by other Christians. That requires humility (James 4:10).

”“ The "gay celibate Christian" movement has expanded over the past 15 years, and has endeavoured to shape the development of evangelical Christianity. Each Christian must discern if these new doctrines and new practices are aligned with the Scriptures.

The movement's influence has expanded because it has been heavily promoted by theologians and pastors who assumed there was no freedom for strugglers with LGBT desires. If you were to examine the origin of these wayward doctrines, many can be traced back to Mark Yarhouse (affiliated with Revoice), whose views were heavily promoted by Don Carson and Tim Keller from 2010 onwards in their unbelief.

I have no doubt that Mark Yarhouse is a wolf. Likewise with some of his co-workers, e.g. Wesley Hill (who nows believes he will still be gay after the resurrection).

Based on this assumption of "no freedom", we have even seen a proposed "LGBTQ+ Audit" of churches (promoted by Tim Keller) which do not even want Christian strugglers to seek God for healing of their LGBTQ+ desires (relevant link: https://banneroftruth.org/us/resources/articles/2019/lgbtq-audit/ ).

However, note that the demands of the "LGBTQ+ Audit" are merely the logical conclusions if you were to assume there is no healing for the struggler. So do you believe that the "LGBTQ+ Audit" is approved by God?

”“ Some Christian groups have grown very uncomfortable with the "gay celibate Christian" movement, because the theological ramifications have become more apparent, and it's clearer now that it looks nothing like the New Testament model of church.

Some of the reformed groups are split ”“ e.g. a majority in Keller's own denomination, the Presbyterian Church of America, rejected his promotion of Revoice views in their polity.

And thus these Christian groups have sought to re-evaluate their theology. But that just goes back to the original questions: "Does God provide freedom from LGBT desires for the struggler, in this life? If so, how?"

5. Do you know what the difference is between the stories of "gay celibate Christians" and those by Christians who were freed from LGBT desires?

- The "gay celibate Christians" talk about their striving, their faithfulness to God, their attempts at obedience (in spite of being in bondage to LGBT lusts, and utterly unfaithful to Scripture by concocting false doctrines and misrepresenting God). It is ultimately about themselves, and not about God.

I'm not being harsh here, because: (i) this man-glorying attitude is encapsulated by the title of Mark Yarhouse's, "Costly Obedience: What We Can Learn from the Celibate Gay Christian Community"; (ii) when people listen to their stories, they applaud the guy for his efforts and his determination; they never praise God.

- Whereas the testimonies of Christians who were freed from LGBT desires ("ex-strugglers", so to speak) is consistently focused on Jesus Christ: "What I couldn't do in the flesh, God did for me. I just had to renew my mind with His truth, and gaze upon Christ ”“ and I experienced transformation effortlessly by His grace".

The focus is always on Jesus and His grace. And the audience's praise is unto God, and not to the person.

”“ So between these two groups, which type of testimony do people want to hear? (I would be amazed if people prefer to listen to a story of no transformation over a testimony of God freeing a person from bondage)

And which group do you think has the true doctrine ”“ the man-glorifying one, or the God-glorifying one? (I believe the answer is clear)

Hi Yuehan, no need trying to convince me, I agree with you in essence.

Just to be clear, C.Yuan clearly distances himself from Revoice, see hih X post:
https://twitter.com/christopheryuan/status/1585285119476002817?lang=en

"With each conference, Revoice is misleading more people into believing their same-sex attraction and gender confusion are a fixed part of their identity"

Also, he clearly states that a homosexual identity and same sex attractions are sinful.
https://www.christianpost.com/news/bible-professor-says-same-sex-attractions-are-sinful-too.html

C.Yuan has not (yet) transitioned into a heterosexual, but he does not rule it out. As for the time being, he sees himself as neither homo- nor heterosexual and therefore stays single, abstays from sex and does not get involved in romantic relationships. I do not think that desire for the opposite sex is neccessarily a sure sign for having overcome homosexuality.

Having said that, I hear you, he struggles with temptations from his homosexual past. I must admit, I do also at times struggle not with homo, but heterosexual sinful thoughts that have to do with my past. Some temptations are done away with, others need to be consitently resisted until the devil flees. Sexual temptation is better avoided than resisted.

For me that is sort of ok. I would give him the benefit of a doubt, he does not have to become decidedly heterosexual and may stay aloof of both categories, if that makes sense. I understand that Daniel, Jeremiah or Paul stayed single and never talked about their sexuality. It was just not an issue for them.

C.Yuan has come a long way. What I am missing is solid advice for ex-gays how to transition into a person who is a attracted to the opposite sex and become ready for marriage and family.

Narrowpath,

1. I was charitable towards Christopher Yuan and gave him the benefit of the doubt too. You might have noticed that in my posts, I didn't question or speculate about his status with God. The Lord knows those who are His (2 Tim 2:19).

And in a lot of cases, it's difficult to tell the difference between the wheat and the tares. But Christians aren't exempted from being wrong or deceived, and it's good to point out their errors - it's ultimately healthy for everyone (Ephesians 4:13).

(Personally, I'm more distrustful of Sam Allberry ”“ who has attacked those who believe in freedom from bondage, and doesn't want people to seek God for transformation. He used to promote the idea that same-sex lust is not a sin too, though he seems to have retreated on that point. So is he working for his own glory, or for God's glory?)

I will say that Christopher Yuan fell into a trap similar to that mentioned in 1 Timothy 3:6, in that he published his book too early and was thrust into the "Christian celebrity"/"Christian expert" spotlight before he was sufficiently mature in his faith (perhaps that's how the religious industry works, but ultimately it damages him).

That maturity cannot be attained through a seminary program; it can only be wrought by God in the School of Christ, in which all children of God are enrolled. This process takes time ”“ all of us need time.

2. You indicated that there's some similarities between the struggle with heterosexual lusts and the struggle with homosexual lusts. That's my view too ”“ by that I mean, if a "sanctification method" can free those who struggle with heterosexual lusts, it can free those who struggle with homosexual lusts.

For me, I've been freed from bondage to lust for over a decade now! God opened up the Scriptures and gave me tremendous understanding concerning sanctification doctrine. Once I started renewing my mind with the identity God had given me (appropriating my identity by faith, confessing with my mouth what my heart believed), transformation came quickly ”“ and effortlessly. The main battle was not in overcoming the lust itself, but in changing my beliefs to match God's.

My heart is full of thanksgiving towards God for that incredible experience, because I could never have figured things out myself. And that same experience is available to every child of God, because that's what Jesus says in John 8:36.

None of this is about "Christian perfectionism" by the way (a pejorative label applied by ignorant religious folks steep in unbelief). It's about being freed from bondage by looking unto Jesus Christ and believing what He says, rather than striving by our own efforts.

As Dustin Horstmann once wrote, "The fact is, much focus on sin can be veiled idolatry of self. We keep looking to ourself for something that can only come from Christ (forgiveness, righteous standing, Life to change) ”“ something that comes dangerously close to, or is, self-worship."

I had earlier recommended Joseph Prince's "The Power of Right Believing" because it contains the same sanctification doctrine which I had learnt directly from God. The book contains a lot of real testimonies and practical advice. I stand by my comments that it is a safe book.

Joseph Prince's ministry is certainly effective in a way that many evangelical churches aren't. Indeed, many churches have not been able to heal a single porn addict, LGBT struggler, drug addict or even a clinically depressed person. It's not necessary to agree with him on every single detail (I certainly don't), and it's not necessary for him to be 100% correct ”“ but if he knows something that you don't, then there's something to learn from him.

3. On the issue of homosexual/LGBT lusts, which is this thread's focus:

Beneath every struggler, there is a wounded soul. Many of those strugglers seem to share similar background issues ”“ e.g. entertaining forbidden lusts, lacking confidence in their masculinity, dysfunctional relationships with their parents, sexually molested in their formative years, etc.

It's difficult to ascertain the root cause by introspectivity, but the Holy Spirit will reveal this to the believer in due time (some inner healing ministries may facilitate this process, but it's always the Lord who reveals).

Amongst the testimonies of transformation I know of, I have seen people renewing their minds in the following ways (under the personal guidance of the Holy Spirit):

(i) by believing their identity as the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ

(ii) by believing the biblical definition of masculinity, and appropriating their perfect masculinity (someone shared such a testimony on this forum in the past, about how God taught him to "Look to Me and take a stand, as a man" ”“ incredible testimony; I also personally know someone who was healed in a similar way)

(iii) by seeing God as the perfect father to them, thus healing their image of fatherhood

The testimonies I've read of those who found freedom from transgender desires are similar. It is their trust in God and His Word that made the difference.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:36)

That is the incredible, and unshakeable, promise of the Lord Jesus to all believers. Indeed, the work of God in a believer's life with power.

Amen.

[I had earlier recommended Joseph Prince's "The Power of Right Believing" because it contains the same sanctification doctrine which I had learnt directly from God. The book contains a lot of real testimonies and practical advice. I stand by my comments that it is a safe book (you've already read the deceptive stuff by the "gay celibate Christian" crowd anyway; how is it possible for this book to be more dangerous?).

Joseph Prince's ministry is certainly effective in a way that many evangelical churches aren't. Indeed, many churches have not been able to heal a single porn addict, LGBT struggler, drug addict or even a clinically depressed person. It's not necessary to agree with him on every single detail (I certainly don't), and it's not necessary for him to be 100% correct ”“ but if he knows something that you don't, then there's something to learn from him.]

Alarm - Alarm

Jospeph Prince's teaching is absolutely desasterous. He basically gives a license to sin. That should better go into a different thread, I just mention it here.

Jude 1:4 KJV
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Did you watch the little clip from David Pawson?
He talked to an elder of the church that has been infested with Joseph Prince's teaching and he said:
Our church is now plagued by immorality and divorce.

Narrowpath,

Stop judging what you don't know. You cannot judge something which you haven't read, and therefore cannot possibly understand. So you're being unfairly judgmental here.

Unless any of Joseph Prince's critics can actually set the struggler free from porn addiction, LGBT lusts, drug addiction, alcoholism, depression etc. ”“ they don't really understand biblical sanctification doctrine, as reflected in their ministries' lack of effectiveness and lack of testimonies in these areas. These critics are like blind men criticizing why another person's description of the sky's colour is inaccurate.

Talk about sanctification doctrine is cheap, but unless it delivers concrete outcomes and makes a practical difference in people's lives ”“ such talk is just meaningless fluff, and an unproductive usage of one's time.

What everyone ultimately desires is to experience the sanctification power of God in their lives ”“ that's what the gospel provides. We can be ignorant or even dismissive of this power; or we can seek God and know this power for ourselves, and thus help others to experience the same too.

I have comprehensively stated what needed to be said on this topic, and hope my posts prove helpful to someone. I will end with 1 Corinthians 2:4-5 and 1 Corinthians 4:20:

"And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God."

"For the kingdom of God is not in words, but in power."

1 cor 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Hi Yuehan,

I am not judging you, but we must make our own judgement about the teachings that are spread around. How then do you then judge that I know nothing about JPs preaching? That is an assumption from your side. I am dealing with his teaching in my cell group.

In very simple terms, here claims that God's grace is something at our disposal that covers past present and future sins without the need of particular repentance. He even mocks conviction, brokeness and repentance.

I have seen videos and know enough about his position that I can make a judgment about them. He comes accross extremely smooth and seductive and puts on a stage show almost like Michael Jackson. You can see how his listeners swallow down his stuff.

As I said before, David Pawson analysed and warned about his teaching, as do many others. This teaching has destroyed many believers faith. Eternity is at stake.

Narrowpath,

There is indeed a place for legitimate comment and legitimate criticism, based on facts and valid information. Unfortunately, what you have done is repeatedly attacking Joseph Prince based on a false caricature of who he is, and a false caricature of his teachings.

You cannot possibly form a correct evaluation of these things based on a few statements taken out of context, or based on the comments of a preacher whom you seem to idolize. You have not read "The Power of Right Believing", so how can you judge the teaching contained therein?

I had gently encouraged you several times to make a careful assessment of Joseph Prince's teachings by gathering valid information and assessing his statements in the proper context of his book ”“ if you want to make an assessment, at least make a proper one prayerfully done with God. But this you refused to do ”“ instead, you continued to issue blanket condemnations based on false caricatures and your inadequate doctrinal understanding (inadequate ”“ by your admission that your church community has not been effective at setting strugglers free).

If God were to weigh your every word against Joseph Prince's ministry, and ask for evidence from you to back up those claims ”“ how many of your statements do you honestly think will survive His scrutiny?

Perhaps someday you will give yourself a chance to make a careful and correct assessment of Joseph Prince's "The Power of Right Believing" prayerfully with God. That would be a wiser approach.

I was blessed by many of Joseph princes teachings on grace until one day I heard this: that Christians do not have to confess their sins that 1 John 1:9 was not written to Christians. This is false teaching. Grace is not a license to sin, but true grace is this:

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.” (Titus 2:11-14)

AbideinHim,

Eat the fish, and spit out the bones ”“ as the adage goes. But here's Joseph Prince clearly stating his views on confession on sins ”“ "I never said it's wrong to confess your sins, it's about *why* we confess our sins":

https://gospel-of-grace-faq.josephprince.org/article/261-confession

My view: I don't believe it is biblical to assert that we have to continually confess every sin to "maintain our salvation" or the like. None of us have done that ”“ we have way more sins that we can ever be conscious of, or feel sufficiently sorry for. If we think we've confessed every sin, God can easily point to other sins which we did not confess.

Salvation is simple, folks ”“ it's on the basis of faith in the blood of Christ. His work on the cross is enough for us, and we just have to acknowledge and receive it by faith (like the dying thief, who did not and could not confess every sin he had committed).