An End of the Year Message from Israel

"These last months since October 7th are very hard to sum up. The war continues and hostages are still held in Gaza. We switched much of our efforts to war relief work for the first weeks of the war, delivering food and supplies to those who have been dispatched and soldiers. There were constant needs in the first month. Recently, as rocket fire has decreased, we have been able to resume in person Bible studies. Shabbat dinners and other efforts are along side providing aid and relief. People really need the fellowship and to be encouraged. We are hosting trauma seminars with a faith base to help people cope with practical tips and more to find hope and strength in the Lord."

"Every interaction these days goes deep quickly. Peope are hurting and need others. It's common to meet a stranger on the street who seems a bit confused or distraught and offer help, and they say they feel shaken to be alone. Would I walk them to a shop or home? We sit and talk. People's emotions are raw. We all know someone who was killed on October 7th. We all have family or friends serving in the military. It's such an important time to be available to people, listen and share and show God's love."

"The rise in global antisemitism is deeply concerning. Recently, so many people from other countries have stories of the rising antisemitism in their countries."

"The conversations and prayer times have been so meaningful. Worshiping the Lord together is healing and strenghtening for next things ahead." (END)

Meanwhile, I found a a contemporary check list of similiar characteristics, attitudes, and actions that preceded and led to the antisemitic actions that led to the events that occurred in WW II against Jews. They are marked with a check because we are seeing them again as if almost a carbon copy of former haunting events not so far in the past.

The dangerous rhetoric? ☑️
The scapegoating of Jews? ☑️
The blood libels? ☑️
Boycotting of Jewish businesses? ☑️
The verbal attacks in the streets? ☑️
The physical violence against Jews? ☑️
The political/diplomatic Jew hatred? ☑️
The cultural icons going anti Jewish? ☑️
Blatant discrimination against Jews? ☑️
Deafening silence from the world? ☑️

We have been here before.

David,
Honest question….
is there anything that a Jewish person or group could do that would merit criticism in your view?

Yep.

Could you elaborate or perhaps give an actual example?

I only ask because all the "checks” in the list could be applied to most people groups at one time or another, some being merited while others actual discrimination-

Again ftr, before the antisemitic accusations start flying, I love Israel and Jewish people but (for me) it would be a form of antisemitism to lump all Jewish persons in a monolithic group as tho they are all in agreement-

Why would such a soul searing emotional message from a dear saint in Israel cause such a question and comments to rise in you?

A host of reasons …

Well I'm not interested in that host. All I wanted was to share the heart and emotions of someone presently laboring in Israel.

Hi All,
I with docs here on this subject.
This antisemitism is unprecedented in recent times.
I for one cannot let this slide and everyone else can do what they please.
The ignorance around the situation in Israel is hard to fathom except to say that pro palestinians are under a delusion from the devil.The obvious is not obvious to them because they are married to a lie knowingly or unknowingly.
The enemy of anything good repeats the same lies over and over and we cant even bother to research them.
Lie 1:Genocide
Lie 2:Occupation
Lie 3:Apartheid
Lie 4:Zionism

Genocide:Their is no genocide going on just a country defending themselves.Their is genocide going on by Hamas however
Occupation:Their is no occupation of Gaza ,it was ruled by the Eygptians ,before that the British,The Turks and was never independant until the Israeli government gave left it in 1993/2005 in the misguided hope that they would rule themselves.
Apartheid:Their is no Apartheid in Israel,about 2 million arabs are full citizens in Israel and take up positions in the IDF,the political assembly and in the judicary.Their is Apartheid in Gaza and other Arab countries who dont allow any Jews to live.
Zionism:The most simple definition is Zionism is a movement to recreate a Jewish presence in Israel or that Israel a Jewish state has a right to be in the middle east.Most people believe that they do have a right to exist as a nation in the middle east.Zionism is a good thing.

So despite Israel's failings (like every country that ever was or existed)the fundamental truth is that Israel has a right to exist and has tried everything to exist peacefully and we have not seen this Anti Jewish hatred since 1930s Europe and the leopard doesnt change its spots,urs staff

No offense was intended, seems odd to need to make that disclaimer tho it’s not a problem for me to offer it -

I asked you this because I like your posts/perspective and generally agree with your positions as expressed here on SI. Likewise your posts have personally benefited my faith helping me grow in my understanding of how we are to walk out the life of faith in Christ alone.
This is something that I had been researching before 10/7/23 as I asked a couple of times here on SI for help with witnessing to Jewish/Israeli persons due to my Jewish Israeli friends that I hope to be an effective witness to for Christ -

And of course you are free to post things that are near your heart, even encouraged to,… tho this is a public forum and as such it is also equally within the normal usage of said forum to inquire regarding the disposition of the poster, no?

Again it is not my intention to frustrate you so much as to arrive at a better understanding of how a brother in Christ makes sense of all this as a Christian-

Thank you for your heartfelt response with what has to be me, since there is no one else that has posted on this thread - other than the OP.

Would you be willing to field the original question I had asked David ?

ftr, I’ve asked this of others and am trying to compile an aggregate of the replies, ultimately to come to an understanding of how what is happening, is happening…. if that makes sense-

/Genocide: There is no genocide going on just a country defending themselves.Their is genocide going on by Hamas however.

Occupation: There is no occupation of Gaza ,it was ruled by the Eygptians, before that the British,The Turks and was never independant until the Israeli government gave left it in 1993/2005 in the misguided hope that they would rule themselves.

Apartheid: There is no Apartheid in Israel, about 2 million arabs are full citizens in Israel and take up positions in the IDF, the political assembly and in the judicary.Their is Apartheid in Gaza and other Arab countries who dont allow any Jews to live.

Zionism: The most simple definition is Zionism is a movement to recreate a Jewish presence in Israel or that Israel a Jewish state has a right to be in the middle east. Most people believe that they do have a right to exist as a nation in the middle east. Zionism is a good thing./

Absolutely correct in my opinion staff. The MSM won't touch it.

Truth be told staff, I believe it even goes beyond Israel has a right to exist. It's a matter of what has God determined regarding Israel and the land. The heathen may rage and the kings of the earth imagine a vain thing but the word of God has already given us the answer as to the outcome.

/Again it is not my intention to frustrate you so much as to arrive at a better understanding of how a brother in Christ makes sense of all this as a Christian./

It didn't come across that way to me. It was rather that the grieving heart of the person who shared regarding the trauma and grief in Israel today was something you seemed to miss altogether. Instead, you asked me if there was anything a Jewish person could do that would offend me and could I perhaps give you an example. I appreciate what you have said regarding me and my posts on this forum etc. But like I asked you, how can a message of such searing grief and trauma and emotion cause such comments and questions to go off in you? You say you are trying to understand things better but I wouldn't go about it the way you did. To me, it came across like someone going into a funeral service and confronting the grieving family members with issues unrelated to what they are going through at the moment. To me, your response was cold hearted and more than a little callous in the face of tremendous suffering. There is no other way to say it. Whatever it was that went off in you that seemed to miss and ignore entirely what the person in Israel shared is not healthy in my opinion.

I only included the checklist at the last moment. Maybe it took away in your mind what the person shared in their message. I don't know. But in regards to the checklist, you ended up stating.

/Again ftr, before the antisemitic accusations start flying, I love Israel and Jewish people but (for me) it would be a form of antisemitism to lump all Jewish persons in a monolithic group as tho they are all in agreement-/

There is a suggestion in there that my inclusion of the checklist was antisemitic in itself.

So my original intent was to share a message from a person in the midst of very trying events in Israel. Maybe people would be more inclined to pray for her and the entire sotuation I hoped. But then I am asked,

- Is there anything a Jewish person might do that would offend me?

- If so, could I perhaps give an example.

- I'm also hit with the suggestion that my including the checklist might have been a type of antisemitism.

All this because of a grief filled message from someone in Israel? I've been told and studied the fact that the issue of Israel is divinely desgined to sift and test and expose the hearts of men. Perhaps this is a prime example. I don't want to get too preachy on that. But I don't understand what caused you to miss what the person shared. It isn't healthy in my opinion. I can't say it any other way.

Meanwhile, if we try we can work through anything maybe. If I'm over reacting or have said things wrong there is still hope for me I presume. But still.

Peace.

Hi JFW,
Is this the question?
"is there anything that a Jewish person or group could do that would merit criticism in your view?"

I personally have no criticism of Jewish persons or groups that merit criticism but others do I think,for instance many people criticize Bibi Nethanyahu and others criticize part of the unity government which Israel have at the moment.
Their is no problem having normal criticism of Israel or Jewish groups once its not a different standard of criticism from non Jewish groups.Its also very important who is doing the critique,for istance if it comes from left wing groups in Europe or the US or other western nations then automatically you know the critique is from a place that just wants the extermination of Israel.

So I would be interested in why you asked the question?your motivation if their is any?
urs staff

Again, thank you for your response…

I’ve noticed that there are and have been many issues facing Christians around the world that didn’t/doesn’t seem to get the same attention or concern for that matter as does the troubles in Israel. This is curious to me seeing how scripturally we are to be exclusively aligned with Christ & other Christians praying accordingly -

Likewise it’s been noticed how we can be somewhat tolerant of other peoples theology that may differ from ours but there appears (at least) to be a patented lack of understanding that leads to a deep seated offense when it comes to Israel and this is a curious matter of inconsistency (for me) wether here on SI or with the bulk of my research with friends, family, and clients.

(footnote for clarity)
As a barber by trade, I have noticed an extremely wide range of responses regarding Israel from those whom I serve, yet not so much regarding the plight of Christian persecution. This is odd to me 🧐.
Even amongst my personal Jewish Israeli friends (one of whom comes this week) there exists a gulf between how they view the situation. For example, the sister of one of my best friends is more liberal in contrast to her brother as she is not a fan of Bibi or his determined stance, whereas my friend is very much in support of him, his administration. Having the opportunity to observe how they handle that is very interesting to me in hopes of better understanding their respective positions.
Also regarding your OP, … no one else had responded and some time had passed so I felt it was ok to inquire of you without it being a lack of decorum-
No need to respond as I won’t press you any further on the matter and again hope you can understand my intention is exclusively in pursuit of the truth 🙏🏻

Thank you for your response. Of one thing you are right, mention Israel in almost any context and you may find you have opened a boiling cauldron of emotions and contrasting views. The issue of Israel does what no other issue does. I agree that is divinely designed to test, sift, and expose the hearts of men.

/This is curious to me seeing how scripturally we are to be exclusively aligned with Christ & other Christians praying accordingly -/

It's my opinion that if Christ is going to return to Jerusalem at His second coming and there are many prophecies regarding the eventual spiritual and physical restoration of Israel under Christ, then how can being concerned with events and issues stemming from Israel not be concerned with Christ?

But here I go. I willingly refrain from here.

Gee, I got a haircut the other day and she did a fine job but left it a little long. Is it wrong to ask a barber to go over it again and make it a little shorter. I usually end up too timid to do so. I'm serious or I maybe need to come to Dothan for a haircut. Are you available?

You and David both posted while I was still writing and had not seen either of them but it appears my footnote would serve to clarify the matter regarding your question ;)

It is very odd to me that some members of the body of Christ seem to have a disproportionate allocation of value towards unsaved Israel than other people, in some cases even fellow Christians. This is odd to me in relation to how the new covenant reads, as I can’t find a comparable parallel amongst the early church. So I inquire when the opportunity presents itself in hopes of compiling enough raw data to arrive at a common point whereby this inconsistency can be resolved (for me).

Your participation in this thread serves the point well as you have demonstrated a focus over the years on end times/rapture oriented posts, so I would factor that in to see wether it’s your predisposition towards these topics or your personal love of Israel/Jewish persons or if this somehow leads back to your allegiance to Christ and His body….
I’ve found that some of my better educated clients share a similar position to you and David, tho theirs is a more a political/cultural focus than one of faith and as such bears all the hallmarks of a "practical” secular disposition. That’s not to say yours or David’s position bears the same, rather they share some core tenants and it’s a curious thing to me how this occurs,… so I inquire when I can 🤷🏽”â™‚️
This inquiry has led to some very disturbing discoveries within the body of believers that have been inquired of… which I believe can pose serious problems going forward in relation to the greater ministry of the church to the unsaved world, tho specifically to Israel. This whole inquiry is the result my attempting to have a more refined approach to ministry, especially but not limited to Jewish persons. What I’ve observed is there seems to be a tendency to esteem one lost person over another based on their ethnicity and again this is grossly inconsistent with what the new covenant plainly states. So my inquiry is to arrive at a definitive conclusion regarding "how” this is happening in hopes of shoring up an effectual scriptural disposition where the spirit of the living God is not encumbered by my personal biases .

Ha! You can’t begin to imagine how your experience embodies the crux of the matter for me ”¼ï¸
firstly yes it’d be my pleasure to serve you 🙏🏻
Secondly, some people take it very personally and get offended while others would be hurt to know you didn’t feel comfortable to ask… there is a plethora of persons who pursue this craft, as such the experiences are varied. Perhaps that’s why there is such a loyalty when a client finds someone with whom they can effectively communicate. It’s like fried chicken in the south,… everybody can do it but each has their own personal taste and can lead to quite nuanced criticisms-

Now to the crux of your experience-
I’ve noted that my Jewish clients, while exceedingly gracious, are also by far the most particular regarding the service they receive. In fact, I can’t recall a single service I’ve ever performed on a Jewish person where I wasn’t asked to redo a part if not all of it…. this is irrespective of how far behind I am or how many others are waiting for their appointments 😂
It’s a cultural thing and initially it left a dent in my ego, tho later it served quite the opposite as I’ve found it to be a great compliment 😊
It’s been my experience that when a Jewish person finds a thing they value, they extract as much of the quality they can get regardless of the inconvenience. This is in sharp contrast to many other cultures due (in my mind) to the perpetual existential threat they live under since WWII. It’s a remarkable and otherwise unmistakable to behold.

Personally, I’m not a profit motivated person as the Lord owns not only me, but the business …as such I work for Him and He has been very kind to me even and especially when I fall short of what was otherwise expected. This is mainly due to me being distracted or getting into my flesh on an issue and harping on it for days on end 😔 there is a ton of testosterone in my house with only my wife to counterbalance (bless her 🙏🏻) this at times finds me going on rants at a perceived injustice and in many ways not living up to the faith I claim. It is something the Lord has been very patient with me on but has disciplined me publicly at times to the point of public humiliation tho He has always been faithful to restore His preeminent presence in the workplace, even when the lack of maintenance (on my end) lasted for a week or more.
Having said this, there are times when there have been palpable spiritual battles in my chair with an unclean spirit was hosted by a client, occasionally (tho rarely) resulting in a service being cut short and the client dismissed prior to conclusion of said services. I try to give people allot of space, just as the Lord does me, what they do with it is up to them but like you and most everyone else, I have limits on how far I can allow a thing to go. Having said this, it’s rare for me to shy away from potentially offending someone especially when I’m keeping step with the Holy Spirit which itself is not as often as could be possible if my eye truly remained singly focused on the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world-

Well now, I’ve said too much and am running behind schedule for what will be a full day of work 😅

Hi JFW,
Ok so let me reply as best I can in order so you can understand my position and others more clearly.

I am not drawn to the personal salvation of Jewish people more than any other race or country.Some people are drawn to certain people groups or countries or areas it has to be noted and this includes Israel.I am not.

My concern is for the Jewish people to have a homeland in the middle east and to live in peace as much as anyone can in this world .It is obvious that God has returned Jewish people to the land (although their was always a small presence) and it is also very obvious that the devil has worked tirelessly against their presence in the area.
Their is not as you suppose a tendency to esteem one lost soul over another and is not out of line with the new convenant.Israel gets mentioned more however because of its place in the bible and because of present news and because of the fullfilling of Prophecy and while this may appear that the souls of Israel are more important than other lost souls, its not the case.Israel as a nation though has a more important place than other countries.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating ,if Israel isnt important why is it being attacked by the devil through organisations and politicians and groups.
This can be clearly seen by who the devil uses to do the attacking ,leftist politicians and organisations who support the Arabs despite the Arabs hating everything they represent ie gay rights,women rights etc It doesnt seem logical for the left to support Arabs who bomb and kill indiscriminately except when you realize that they have a victim/aggressor narrative for every issue they want to advance such as gay rights or open borders.The devil is clearly behind this victim narrative not just when it comes to Israel but all issues and this is how he advances his kingdom.
So the key here as a Christian is to realize that some Christians are drawn to minister to certain groups or countries like Canada or Eskimos or Iran(come over here kinda of thing) and also Israel.Secondly Israel as a Jewish nation or entity is different than any other Nation.Thirdly it is clear that the devil is attacking the Jews like no other group and Christians offer protection against these lies not with arms,guns or bombs but by refuting the devils lies and exposing his schemes because we the Christians are the only people that know what we are talking about.We bring light where their is darkness not just by spreading the gospel but by telling the truth,this truth is that Israel is not perfect and may have the same problems other countries have corruption,greed or poor governance etc but their is no genocide,apartheid or occupation these are lies of the devil and they need to be called out,
If we do not call them out who will?
urs staff

Thank you🙏🏻
That definitely helps to better understanding and I appreciate your feedback:)

If I may ask, why would the devil choose to focus his attacks on unsaved people rather than Christians?
This, for me, gets us closer to the point I find baffling about these claims… perhaps I’m missing something but when I read the new covenant there’s not really a comparable argument that I’ve found, One that suggests the devil will turn from being against Christ and His bride, to an unsaved Israel …?
If the devil were to do this, what would be his objective?
I mean they already have and still do reject and deny Christ as the/their messiah and are looking for a primarily political one 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Hi Fletcher,

I hope that you don't mind if I converse with you on this too. I think that it's a very important discussion.

If I may ask, why would the devil choose to focus his attacks on unsaved people rather than Christians?
This, for me, gets us closer to the point I find baffling about these claims… perhaps I’m missing something but when I read the new covenant there’s not really a comparable argument that I’ve found, One that suggests the devil will turn from being against Christ and His bride, to an unsaved Israel …?
If the devil were to do this, what would be his objective?
I mean they already have and still do reject and deny Christ as the/their messiah and are looking for a primarily political one 🤷🏽”â™‚️

First off, I would point out that this has ALWAYS been the case with the "chosen people." No sooner had Israel crossed the Red Sea than people began turning away from the One who chose them. If you read through Exodus, Numbers and Judges, you'll see quite a bit of a nation that was quick to turn away from God.

In Judges, we often read the words "the people of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the LORD" (Judges 3:7, Judges 3:12, Judges 4:1, Judges 6:1, Judges 10:6, etc.). After the years of peace experienced with a righteous judge in Israel, it was always followed by a period of people turning aside from the LORD.

In fact, in Judges 2, we read something interesting:

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Now the angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bochim.

And he said:

"I brought you up from Egypt and brought you into the land that I swore to give to your fathers. I said, ‘I WILL NEVER BREAK MY COVENANT WITH YOU, and you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall break down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed my voice. What is this you have done?

So now I say, I will not drive them out before you, but they shall become thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare to you.”

As soon as the angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the people of Israel, the people lifted up their voices and wept.

And they called the name of that place Bochim. And they sacrificed there to the Lord.

Judges 2:1-5 (ESV)

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The problem was never with the LORD breaking his covenant with the people of Israel. Rather, it was always a problem the other way around. In fact, there is an interesting part written in the book of Judges shortly before God raises up Jephthah.

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The people of Israel again did what was evil in the sight of the Lord and served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Syria, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the Ammonites, and the gods of the Philistines. And they forsook the Lord and did not serve him.

So the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he sold them into the hand of the Philistines and into the hand of the Ammonites, and they crushed and oppressed the people of Israel that year.

For eighteen years they oppressed all the people of Israel who were beyond the Jordan in the land of the Amorites, which is in Gilead. And the Ammonites crossed the Jordan to fight also against Judah and against Benjamin and against the house of Ephraim, so that Israel was severely distressed.

And the people of Israel cried out to the Lord, saying, "We have sinned against you, because we have forsaken our God and have served the Baals.”

And the Lord said to the people of Israel:

"Did I not save you from the Egyptians and from the Amorites, from the Ammonites and from the Philistines? The Sidonians also, and the Amalekites and the Maonites oppressed you, and you cried out to me, and I saved you out of their hand. Yet you have forsaken me and served other gods; therefore I will save you no more. Go and cry out to the gods whom you have chosen; let them save you in the time of your distress.”

And the people of Israel said to the Lord, "We have sinned; do to us whatever seems good to you. Only please deliver us this day.” So they put away the foreign gods from among them and served the Lord, and he became impatient over the misery of Israel.

Judges 10:6-16 (ESV)

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In this passage, the Israelites once again cried out to God for deliverance. Yet, God pointed out this pattern to them. They were oppressed and cried out to God. He saved them. Yet, they subsequently forsook God and turned to idols.

So, in this passage, God tells them to cry out to those idols for help. He tells them that he will help them "no more."

Yet, in this, the people of Israel acknowledged their sins. They ask for deliverance. And, of course, they got rid of those idols and "served the LORD." Once again, this moved the heart of God. He could bear their misery no longer.

Why?

This is because of his covenant with them. While they could walk away from their part of the covenant, he would not walk away from his part when they returned to Him.

This is reinforced when Solomon prayed during the dedication of the Temple in 2 Chronicles 6:14:-42. Even during this gloriously remarkable point in the history of Israel, Solomon knew that a time was coming when the people would turn away from God.

At one point, he prayed, "If your people Israel are defeated before the enemy because they have sinned against you, and they turn again and acknowledge your name and pray and plead with you in this house, then hear from heaven and forgive the sin of your people Israel and bring them again to the land that you gave to them and to their fathers" (2 Chronicles 6:24-25 ESV).

Later, God responds to Solomon's prayer. He said:

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Then the Lord appeared to Solomon in the night and said to him:

"I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for myself as a house of sacrifice.

When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command the locust to devour the land, or send pestilence among my people, if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayer that is made in this place. For now I have chosen and consecrated this house that my name may be there forever. My eyes and my heart will be there for all time.

And as for you, if you will walk before me as David your father walked, doing according to all that I have commanded you and keeping my statutes and my rules, then I will establish your royal throne, as I covenanted with David your father, saying, ‘You shall not lack a man to rule Israel.’

"But if you turn aside and forsake my statutes and my commandments that I have set before you, and go and serve other gods and worship them, then I will pluck you up from my land that I have given you, and this house that I have consecrated for my name, I will cast out of my sight, and I will make it a proverb and a byword among all peoples.

And at this house, which was exalted, everyone passing by will be astonished and say, ‘Why has the Lord done thus to this land and to this house?’

Then they will say, ‘Because they abandoned the Lord, the God of their fathers who brought them out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods and worshiped them and served them. Therefore he has brought all this disaster on them.’”

2 Chronicles 7:12-22 (ESV)

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So, even under the Old Covenant, there was a condition on the part of the people of Israel who were chosen by God. We often hear the words "if my people" but seldom remember the "IF." God will ALWAYS uphold His part of the covenant He made with the people He chose. The problem is that the people He has chosen do not always reciprocate.

Of course, this brings up the underlying question about that Old Covenant. Once Christ Jesus died and resurrected, was that old covenant forfeited? Was God released from His part of that covenant? At that point, did this special distinction of the Jews end?

Consider this little anecdote:

When I was an undergraduate student, I needed to sign a degree plan. I scheduled a meeting with my freshman college advisor. This degree plan is something of a binding contract between the university and the student. If they fulfill all of the requirements in that degree plan, they will be awarded their bachelor's degree.

Yet, something interesting happened while I was an undergraduate student. Shortly before my senior year in college, the university created a NEW degree plan. This changed several of the courses necessary to obtain a degree in engineering. There were a few courses that would no longer be needed plus a few others that would be required. Their goal was to reduce the immense workload for engineering students. Why? The old degree plan, often necessitated attending college every summer simply to graduate in four years.

Going forward, no new students could sign the old degree plan. They could only sign the new.

So, I was faced with a decision. Should I stick with the old degree plan or sign a NEW and BETTER degree plan? It was a difficult decision because I had already taken most of the courses required by the old plan.

In the end, I chose to sign the new degree plan. After all, the courses that I had already completed would still be reflected on my college transcript (along with the grades). Plus, it was possible that I could use some of those courses in lieu of a few upcoming course requirements.

I would argue that God has not negated the old covenant that He made with the physical seed of Abraham. That old covenant stipulated faith in God too along with a decision to not fall into idolatry. However, going forward, salvation could ONLY come through faith in Jesus Christ. The old covenant was not "annulled." Rather, it was obsolete in the sense that a new and better covenant became available.

In this sense, God is waiting for Israel to once again cry out to Him. Physical Israel STILL needs Jesus -- because salvation is not found in any other name. All of the early messages of repentance and salvation were preached to the Jews. Even during Jesus's earthly ministry, the call for salvation was directed to them.

Yet, that old covenant was not annulled. It was made to Abraham and his descendants. In fact, Jeremiah prophesied that God would make "a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Notice the distinction of Israel AND Judah? The Old Covenant was one of both faith AND a physical nature. The New Covenant -- a better covenant -- is based upon faith. It is available to the Jew and the Gentile.

Personally, I believe that the period of "great tribulation" will cause physical Israel to once again cry out to God. And, I believe that God will answer and save them.

I’ll do my best to respond to both you and Staff tho I’d ask that Staff if we could stay on task and not get entangled in Christopher’s OC response -

I have a very busy day today as yesterday so it may take time for me to be able to respond today, tho rest assured that the importance of this for me requires an earnest effort to resolve this matter 🙏🏻

Regarding your post-
As always your post is thoughtful, well conceived and written, likewise I appreciate your patience with me as I attempt to sort this out-

(For me) it’s not that I disagree with your points as they are biblically sound yet i patently reject your conclusion, primarily but not exclusively based on the fact that the OC requires a sacrifice for sins, which God Himself provided in Christ Jesus-
Again (for me) considering that it would be an affront to the blood of the Lamb of God to once again offer the blood of bulls and goats in light of a more precious blood, a pure and holy blood that literally, in and of itself, takes away once and for all the sins of the world, I cannot but be repulsed by the idea that any other blood could prove more sufficient than that of Jesus of Nazareth-
In fact, it is the deception that any other blood could suffice, that itself is the premise of the false messiah (anti-Christ) setting up the daily oblation again that seals the fate that f those whom reject the blood of Christ ( per Rev)
I cannot find nary a NC verse that supports such an idea, rather quite the opposite (per Hebrews).
Reason being that the first was through the priesthood of Levi and the second through a better ministry, namely one after the order of Melchizedek- these are not the same.
(For me) in my rendering of the purpose of the NC when contrasted with the OC, it is the very fact that the first was found lacking and for God to accept it while the blood of His dear Son is rejected, would be for God the Father to count the blood of His only begotten Son, worthless and publicly trample it under feet -
Again this idea is repulsive, and flys in the face of all God accomplished thru Christ Jesus on the cross of Calvary ✝️

Art Katz, in many of his sermons touches on and at times directly addresses this issue, parsing it out to the point of redundancy so that their is no confusion left except that which will resist and reject the mercy of God.
The writer of Hebrews states ( to the Jews who were still under the OC)
2;
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
(((((3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;))))
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

3;
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
(Ps. 95:7-11”Š)
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
The Peril of Unbelief
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

7;
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
(Ps. 110:4”Š)
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

I hope this serves to rectify the matter regarding the annulment of the OC-
\t\t

Here is another end of the year message from a Christian in Bethlehem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l75yhhAAPt0

May the Lord have mercy on us !

Markus
Edit: removed a sentence

Hi JFW,

"If I may ask, why would the devil choose to focus his attacks on unsaved people rather than Christians?"

Firstly the devil wants everybody to die not just Christians or Jews.He revels in death,he cant help himself.The people in the most bondage to the devil are non Christians afterall.We know for instance that the devil is behind abortion and abortion is mainly effecting non Christians.
The devil comes to kill and destroy everything if he can.
Secondly
The devil is trying to delay the inevitable and the inevitable includes Israel being in the land and Christ coming back to Jerusalem.So if the devil can scupper that then he scuppers the plan of God.
Thirdly
The devil is against Christ and his bride and also against Israel (because he knows Israel is still in his plans)
Fourthly
I think its impossible to look at the lies being told about Israel as we speak and say this is from a human origin rather from the devil.The devil is driving the politics.

Your getting hung up on Israel being unsaved rather than the importance of Israel as nation at the end of this age.Nobody is replacing the bride of Christ who are saved,we can chew gum and walk at the same time,
urs staff
P.s Or should I say the devil can chew gum and walk at the same time

Thank you again for helping to parse this out 🙏🏻

Is there a NC scripture that you could share that would support this idea?

Thank you

//The devil is trying to delay the inevitable//

Isn’t that kind of.. dumb?

The devil simply wants to take as many souls as he can muster before the day of judgment. It does not take a genius to see he is succeeding.

Thank you🙏🏻
That definitely helps to better understanding and I appreciate your feedback:)

/If I may ask, why would the devil choose to focus his attacks on unsaved people rather than Christians?
This, for me, gets us closer to the point I find baffling about these claims… perhaps I’m missing something but when I read the new covenant there’s not really a comparable argument that I’ve found, One that suggests the devil will turn from being against Christ and His bride, to an unsaved Israel …?
If the devil were to do this, what would be his objective?
I mean they already have and still do reject and deny Christ as the/their messiah and are looking for a primarily political one 🤷🏽”â™‚️/

/One that suggests the devil will turn from being against Christ and His bride, to an unsaved Israel …?
If the devil were to do this, what would be his objective?
I mean they already have and still do reject and deny Christ as the/their messiah and are looking for a primarily political one 🤷🏽”â™‚️/

Do you believe present Israel will always remain this way?

From the view that you are investigating, what is equally baffling is that those who see Israel's present unbelief ONLY at the same time ignore the vast corpus of prophetic scripture that forecast Israel's eventual spiritual and georaphical restoration under the New Covenant. It was forecast that after many days Israel would return to the land largely in a state of unbelief before the events transpire at the end of this present evil age. So the question to many profundly stumbled at Israel's reappearance and resulting turmoil in the Land should be, believest thou the prophets? Satan knows that when Israel is located securely in the land with Christ as their head, with no one ever to abuse or molest them again, then his sway over the minds of men and this age is over. So he fights against all and Israel in particular. Israel has always acted several steps up the moral ladder compared to what their enemies practice, but there will come a day when they renounce guns and might as their guarantee of peace. They fight now to literally survive and their enemies will one day have to account for this. As so many have, the Jewish population of tHe world has not forgotten the events of World War II. And people ask why they fight so hard? So what do we do now, we are in a never ending predicament. When will the unceasing cycle of violence in the Middle East cease? I choose to believe the prophets and Jesus, not just concentrate on Israel's present unbelief. And it's not wise in my opinion to change the original meaning of the prophets's words so as to make them virutally unrecognizable in many aspects in regards to Israel, thus avoiding the controversy of modern day Israel as having any real spiritual signifigtane in the unfolding of God's pre-determined plan for them and the earth. It has nothing to do whatsoever with excluding the Gentiles or changing and twisting the New Covenant in favor of one people. That goes in one ear and out the other in the perception of many critics and opponents of Isaral. I didn't say it but others did when they say God has designed the issue of Israel, and Jerusalem, to test, sift and expose the hearts of men. Experience has show them to be correct I think. If one is stumbled at Israel's present unbelief, why pro-Israel proponents continue to say in spite of their sin and unbelief, God has vast plans ahead for Israel after their spiritual restoration the land, then what do the prophets, and Jesus, say? In spite of what we see in modern Israel's still continuing rejection of Christ and political motivation and leaning of their present government, can we believe the prophets even though we stilll do not see these things? That is the divinely designed test, whom do you believe? Do you believe what you see or what has been predicted and forecast and that you still can't see yet? If one only sees Israel's present unbelief then their heart has been revealed as dwelling in unbelief to much of what the prophets forecast. In vain do people get around this by changing the meaning of the words of the prophets. God is wise, He knew Israel returning to the land was not going to bring peace. But there is no unrighteouness in God, He doesn't make bad decisions. He can't be blamed. The issue comes down to what and whom do we believe in spite of what we see. This issue is not going away nor the ever growing intensity of the revealing of the hearts of men that accompanies it.

Peace.

THE NEW COVENANTALISM OF THE PROPHETS

The prophets not only sketched the essential features of the new covenant era, they also revealed important aspects of the manner in which it would come about. While they didn’t realize the twofold coming of the Priest-King to deliver Israel and the world, they do provide the roadmap of what’s ahead. This is critical to note because it was here that other versions of the Bible story begin imputing to the NT authors notions of "re-interpreting,” clever "new twists,” "re-defining,” and "new visions” to subsume the prophetic vision of Israel into the NT Church. Such invention is indeed needless if we attend to how the prophets themselves understood the manner the story should unfold. Four dimensions of the prophets’ new covenantalism are particularly important to set the stage for the subsequently for the Land and the People of Israel. Here is the first of the four.

People and Land

"In the view of the prophets there would be a literal, physical regathering of the Jews under a new movement of the Holy Spirit. The process ends in Israel’s spiritual as well as physical, restoration to their Land in a kingdom-state like other kingdoms and nations (Dan. 2:44; Isa. 49:6). In revisionist readings, Israel is replaced by a "New Israel” (Church), exile ends in Christ who is the "new Moses and himself "Israel,” and God gets the glory in the typological "restoration” of some other "Israel.” So also the Land promises are fulfilled by the Gospel outreach that is going on throughout the whole world.

(From "The People. The Land, And The Future Of Israel” ”“ copyright 2014; Chapter 10 ”“ "Israel As A Necessary Theme In Biblical Theology” ”“ Dr. Mark R. Saucy; pg 175-176)

//From the view that you are investigating, what is equally baffling is that those who see Israel's present unbelief ONLY at the same time ignore the vast corpus of prophetic scripture that forecast Israel's eventual spiritual and georaphical restoration under the New Covenant.//

Does this mean you think it is a "done deal?”

I don't hold to what I have come to associate with your view that any interpretation might be right, after all who really knows?

Mainly, I hold to the view of the trustworthiness of prophecy in regards to Israel. If all things prophesied regarding Israel have literally come true up to this point, why should we expect anything different in the future?

It would just seem that if it’s already a done deal then there would be implications for evangelism. But perhaps not. I’m unclear on that point.

I'll get back to you Todd. I've got to go with someone about 85 miles or so to pick up some new vans for work and drive the back here. So I'll be a bit.

You wrote "Do you believe present Israel will always remain this way?”

I’ll be honest upfront and say that I need not read any further after that question you are asking….

This gets to the meat of the matter, so I am thankful 🙏🏻

My answer is, I hope not and hold a very strong belief that we, the body of Christ have a significant role in bringing Israel to Christ (ROM 11)

It would also be true that what we have been doing is neither biblical nor effective to the task and that is plain to see for the whole world.
Jesus says, "if the Son be lifted up…..”
it’s quite apparent that the weak link in the chain is us, which is to say the onus is on us .

Certainly not limited to, but especially apparent regarding Israel, the modern evangelical cultural position towards Israel is patently unbiblical.
How can we know this??
By the fruit - or in this case the lack thereof .

We, the current body of Christ on the earth are called to evangelize Israel, full stop.

We have lost the fear of the Lord to such and extent that we have become calloused regarding the wrath of God that we know will come upon the unbelieving and ungodly and that does include Israel presently !

We say Oct 7th was a tragedy but what do we mean?
Are speaking as the world or as the oracles of God ??
The tragedy isn’t that Israelis we ambushed and viciously murdered dear brother, no…. The tragedy is that the church seems to be under some sort of delusion where they must assume that God is going to give these people a do-over or something because I’ve not heard nor read the slightest concern here on SI much less the world, as to the fact that the real tragedy is that the people who were murdwred in Israel are in hell or will be, full stop.

Where is the fear of the Lord!??
Have we gotten so comfortable, making our lives so convenient,… that we lie to ourselves about the condition of those we claim to care about the most 🤷🏽”â™‚️

In my heart I know, we are in big trouble and we need to repent and seek to bring as many to Christ as possible,… like our very lives depended on it- remember the parable of the talants, we’re acting like the one who buried it when it comes to Israel so for me something’s gotta change and the sooner the better because while we’re here debating, people are going to hell forever and we don’t really seem to mind much anymore 🥺

Very poignant and well-stated Fletcher.

I think a lot of the American evangelical church think that Jewish people are "kind of saved.” That they do have God’s favor. That He winks at their unbelief.

And I think that is why the Church has failed in regard to the Jewish people.

Which also hits on what I was getting at in regard to Jewish evangelism. If a lot of Christian’s think they are just all going to be saved in the end (and which a very large contingent of the American church thinks is imminent) there is no sense of urgency now.

Hi JFW,
Which specific idea?
Generally the whole bible new and old are accepted support for any idea and you have to take the scripture as a whole,
urs staff

Hi all,
Israel is different than any other nation but it doesnt mean that the individual people in Israel are saved anymore than any other country or nation or people.Also just because individual people arent saved in Israel like other countries it doesnt mean that Israel is the same as other countries.

It clearly has a destiny different than any other nation, doesnt mean the people are presently saved or godly but it does mean that the devil wants to devour them and it amazes me that the some parts of the Church thinks that what Israel is presently going through is just normal unorganised activity that other countries go through,wake up we know who is organising this,urs staff