Romans 7.

Purely for the sake of argument, if one concludes that Romans 7 is a description of every born again saints’ spiritual problem and condition, What is Paul’s solution for delivery from this wretched condition ?

One would have to be bound in some teaching to avoid the patent answer provided in Romans 8:1. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus……blameless as to the law because the righteous conditions including the curses found in that law have been fulfilled and satisfied. NOW having been set free not to walk according to the law but walk according to the Spirit of life. NOW no condemnation.

How are we set free from the law and the sin that rises to life through it….. no condemnation. Freedom from the law, the works of the law for righteousness and the curse of the law as to any unrighteousness, is a "fulfillment” issue by another both as to His doing of it and as to His becoming a curse for the breaking of it. (justification).

The Cure for the Romans 7 condition is faith in Christ’s work on the cross where the law and its mandated curse for breaking of it were satisfied through fulfillment. Why would we try to fulfill something that has been fulfilled for us ?
Galatians 3.

The actual and complete fulfillment of the law is where the freedom that Paul cries out for in Romans 7:24 is found and trusted in. That is what Scripture says plainly. To trust in a second experience to get there is to automatically not trust in the first experience of "no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” where you were placed at your justification that is experienced simultaneously at new birth, forgiven, cleansed, given a new pure heart, a new spirit, and an indwelling Spirit when Christ Jesus was placed in you, now free from the law and free to walk in the newness of life. No longer married and subject to law but joined to another husband having become one with Him in Spirit in our new spirit given at new birth.

For those who slip back into the law as Christians described in Galatians, Paul says, "seek the second blessing ". Obviously not but that would have been the perfect place to say it. No, instead he says the answer of law keeping is……..What are you doing???? Who has bewitched you????? Remember what happened for you, to you and in you at the first when you first believed and the Spirit did miracles among you. Paul (the author of Romans 7) doesn’t tell them to seek the second blessing. He reminds them in their perilous state of going back to the law to remember their first blessing and to live out the Spirit given in the first blessing by faith that they received when they were justified, cleansed, given new hearts and given the Spirit of life. Go back to the first blessing and start believing in it and living it……,,faith in the finished work, the blood purchased promises and New Covenant secured power of God given through Christ on the cross and His resurrection and your joinder to all that and your uniting to Him in faith in a finished work, not a second work. Go work out what God has from the beginning worked in you and trust that what was worked in you will continue to work in you to will and to do according to what will fully please Him.
Romans 7 is not a pointer to a new or second blessing, it is a call to live out the first and all sufficient one.

Amen!

Brother Robert,

Are you saying that being born again there is not another Baptism that is a free gift for every believer?

"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said, Into what then were ye baptized? And they said, Into John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. sion
And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied,” (Acts 19;2-6).

I was led to speak strictly to the Romans 7 issue.

"The curse of much modern religion is that it makes us so desperately interested in ourselves, so overweeningly concerned about our own whiteness. Jesus Christ was absolutely interested in God, and the saint is to be a simple, unaffected, natural human being in dwelt by the Spirit of God. If the saint is paying attention to the Source, Jesus Christ, out of him and unconsciously to him are flowing the rivers of living water wherever he goes (John 7:37-39). Men are either getting better or worse because of us.” -Oswald Chambers

"Sin dwells in human nature, but the Bible makes it very clear that it is an abnormal thing, it has no right there, it does not belong to human nature as God designed it. Sin has come into human nature and perverted and twisted it. The Redemption of God through our Lord Jesus Christ delivers human nature from sin, and then begins the possibility of the manifestation of the life of Jesus in our mortal flesh. We are saved by God’s grace, but, thank God, we have something to do. We must take care to meet God’s supernatural work of grace by our human obedience.” -Oswald Chambers

"The Sermon on the Mount is a statement of the life we will live when the Holy Spirit is getting His way with us.” -Oswald Chambers

"We have to nourish the life of the Son of God in us, and we do it by obedience, that is, by bringing our natural life into accordance with His life and transforming it into a spiritual life.” -Oswald Chambers

Over the course of the last year or so I have purposefully and violently placed my theology on the cross to see what raises to life. It's been interesting.

I've since realized that the most scriptural proponents of entire sanctification equated the teaching with the new birth, effectively rendering it the entry to the kingdom of God. I believe Chambers to be, easily, the most profound and scriptural writer outside of the Bible, and he, as well as brother Robert, in the absurd timing of the Lord, have effectively rendered my previous understanding of second blessing holiness ineffective.

I spent the day reading through all of the writing of John the apostle, rereading the book "The Psychology of Redemption" by Chambers for the second time in 2 days, and have been thoroughly slain theologically. Chambers speaks of quickening, or an awakening that leads to the new birth. Many equate this with salvation and subsequently sanctification - I did for 20 years.

I think I may have been mistaken.

While I still do not hold to a process of sanctification (rather a growth in grace and knowledge, a nourishing and maturing of Christ in us, etc.), I am now not convinced that their are 2 distinct works in every Christian experience -

Just wanted to throw that out there for those of you that have use my words to cause division and bring a party spirit to many threads in the past few weeks.

//To trust in a second experience to get there is to automatically not trust in the first experience of "no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” where you were placed at your justification that is experienced simultaneously at new birth, forgiven, cleansed, given a new pure heart, a new spirit, and an indwelling Spirit when Christ Jesus was placed in you, now free from the law and free to walk in the newness of life. No longer married and subject to law but joined to another husband having become one with Him in Spirit in our new spirit given at new birth.//

We are not to trust in a second experience, but in Christ who delivered us on the cross. However just about all of us do not understand what this means, and without consenting to joint crucifixion, at that point, we carry on serving in the flesh or rather in our own strength.

They say that during revival, it does happen sometimes soon after coming for forgiveness whereby some are entirely sanctified. So why, if those who have not consented to the crucifixion of the old man and been delivered, did they have that problem of Romans 7? Why were they not walking in the Spirit and life? Why did they not have the ability to walk as He walked?

It is easy, they were not in the Spirit because they had not 'reckoned' they were dead to sin. They had that position gained for them but they had not yet been delivered. It was not yet in force so something further was required and the ECF's called it illumination which is a revelation from God not a reasoning of the flesh.

ES-

Thanks for all the OC quotes. I agree with your assessment of him, but I also find him sometimes difficult to understand due to his depth. I sure would have liked the opportunity to sit down with him and ask him about 1000 questions. Sadly he was only 43 when he died.

I am busy reading now 'The Psychology of Redemption' and finding it a good read, especially as he agrees with me about the Temptation of Christ!

He also says that baptism of the Spirit is born again into the kingdom of God. YES!

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"I am busy reading now 'The Psychology of Redemption' and finding it a good read, especially as he agrees with me about the Temptation of Christ!"

So you like Chambers because he agrees with you. You ought to like him because he agrees with the Word of God. I don’t believe that Chamber’s ever said that Jesus was never tempted. I have several of his books, and Chambers even said that sanctification was both instantaneous and a process.

"In the process of sanctification, the Spirit of God will strip me down until there is nothing left but myself, and that is the place of death. Am I willing to be myself and nothing more? "
"My Utmost For His Highest”

I read him many years ago and checked him out with scripture. I had just forgotten how good he is. He never said Jesus was not tempted but he did not say by sin.

Of course it is a process and an event.

Duplicate

"I read him many years ago and checked him out with scripture. I had just forgotten how good he is. He never said Jesus was not tempted but he did not say by sin.”

Sister, you are not making any sense at all, if the devil was not tempting Jesus to sin, then what was he tempting him to do, please explain yourself.

Well seeing as you will not pay a few pence for the master to speak on this, I will briefly say that He was tempted to obey God according to reason.

Brenda said:
"I will briefly say that He was tempted to obey God according to reason."

Make no mistake dear sister, fulfilling Gods will via shortcut, our own way, or Satans way, is sin. Albeit not "transgression of the law" - but "whatsoever is not of faith is sin". Trying to do Gods will our way is not faith in Gods way, will or provision, and therefore sin.

Oh well I did not explain it properly and am not willing to stop reading on kindle to go back atm. You should know the answer as you have the book.

Brother Evan,

I know that you have read many of Oswald Chambers books and have quoted from him frequently. Have you read any of Watchman Nee’s books? One brother has said that Oswald Chambers and Watchman Nee were in agreement on many of there teachings. I have read many of Watchman Nee’s books. The first one "Sit, Walk, and Stand” around 50 years ago.

OK here goes: The devil does not tempt us to do wrong things; he tries to make us lose what God has put in us by regeneration p 35

The devils attack is the same as was in our Lord; viz to do God's will our own way p36

That is to say, to work from our instinct or sanctified reason which is not sin itself, but leads directly to sin and a fall from grace. All must come from the inspiration of the Spirit.

I believe that WN was Keswick but OC was more traditional holiness teaching. He did not teach or speak with tongues whereas WN approved it?

Mike,

I've read a ton of Watchman Nee actually - in the past few months I've probably 10 of his books. I highly recommend:

The Spiritual Man
Let us pray (this book revolutionized my prayer life)
Normal Christian life
Sit, Walk, Stand
The latent power of the soul
Christ, the sum of all spiritual things
Love not the world (possibly my favorite of his writings)

Highly recommended:

The Spiritual Man
Let us pray (this book revolutionized my prayer life)
Normal Christian life
Sit, Walk, Stand
The latent power of the soul
Christ, the sum of all spiritual things
Love not the world (possibly my favorite of his writings)

I have got them all. What do you think about T. Austin Sparks?
Watchman Nee has quoted from Brother Sparks writings often.

"One of the dangers of the Higher Christian Life, is that it is apt to fizzle off to abstractions" Oswald Chambers. He goes on in The Psychology of Redemption to explain sinless perfection. This is the difference with Keswick which he has just criticized. I find his teachings to be the nearest to the ECF's.

Brenda,
The good is enemy of the perfect - this is a foundational revelation that actually led me to the current theological emptiness I find myself in.

I've found that, Like Abraham, not knowing where we are going is the only avenue through which the Holy Spirit will truly work - and also possibly the only way God will truly ever receive glory. "I delight to do your will" is the ultimate call of Jesus "follow me". In forsaking our theological prejudices God will show us truth, and not before - I'm proving this experimentally as we speak.

Mike,
I've not read Sparks, but I remember Art Katz speaking about him, and his story of death and resurrection - I do miss brother Art.

Yes it is something that OC said and I have always remembered it.

//"I delight to do your will" is the ultimate call of Jesus "follow me". In forsaking our theological prejudices God will show us truth, and not before - I'm proving this experimentally as we speak.//

Amen. It landed me in the middle of the Bosphorus.

Brenda,
That is why, tragically, most, maybe all, of the current professing church is sinful. I become more convinced everyday that nothing we see in modern Christendom is of God.

There is always scattered seeds, individuals sent to speak into it, but it's religion by and large. Maybe 1 out of 100 professing Christians is actually born again, maybe.

Well I agree wholeheartedly with that and my studies show it all goes back to Augustine and the entry of philosophy into the church.

The whole of the west is in heresy in that it accepts the filioque clause of the Nicene creed which was later anathametized by the One, holy, catholic and apostolic church.
And yes to no born-agains.

The Roman see broke away which was schismatic then Protestantism committed the same sin an hundredfold (thousands actually) God have mercy.

To go back to Brother Roberts original post - I would have to mostly agree at this point.

I think that it is extremely dangerous to isolate Romans 6-8, and already in the Lords leading me through it again, Romans 4 and 5 are the keys to properly interpreting 6-8. This should seem like something that goes without saying, but sadly most holiness teachers never seem to expound chapters 4 and 5.

Circumcision is a key factor in properly understanding Romans 7, and I think it's that misunderstanding that has led to so much misunderstanding and false teaching.

I plan on sharing what the Lord is speaking to me soon in this regard, but in the meantime, Roberts original post should not be taken lightly or forgotten.

Why not go back to the beginning and go through verse by verse here Evan.

Edit, l will follow with the commentary by John Chrystostom.

His church isn't built on all this. His church is built by Jesus through the Spirit, His Word, His power and His faithfulness through mature brothers and sisters speaking the knowledge of Jesus in love to one another and especially to less mature brothers and sisters for the building up of the body. Simple.

Just ask yourself whether that is what is going on here or elsewhere. Much of what is written has no place in the rest of the world where the books and testimonies mean little to simple people with huge spiritual problems. If it is all so important, why don't you see these debates in the Scriptures ?
That was the point of the original post. If Romans 7 is for born again Christians, which it isn't but I'll concede it for now, there was a simple problem, the war of the desires of the flesh against the desires of the Spirit, and a simple solution of No Condemnation, you are free from the flesh and the reign of sin over you. Like Naaman, simple cleansing isn't enough for some.

You guys should read Galatians 1-3 anew. That is really the applicable text. God addresses the problem quite clearly and cleanly in dealing with born again Christians who walk according to the flesh. Telling professing believers who don't have the Spirit (ie. aren't born again) to understand how to walk in the Spirit is foolishness. Much church life is focused on the latter because they haven't helped people test to see if they are truly in the faith when they lag in true Christlike living. 1 John was written to address both situations by focusing on being born again. Not that complicated. Not that sophisticated. Just God's foolish wisdom.

Walk in the Spirit, grow in the knowledge of Jesus, have faith in promises and power, love one another in action, flee temptation, resist the devil, endure in faith and love through hardship, heed the warnings, place your hope completely in the grace to be revealed at His coming, pray and rejoice constantly, share and show Christ. Grow the church, get the church ready for her husband, encourage one another away from sin and unto holiness and love. Become like Jesus.

This isn't only simple and practical, it's spiritual which is to say it is supernatural.

A lot of this seems self absorbed as Brother Evan has said. Sorry to say that, but if you look at the posts there is a lot of stuff about us and very little about Jesus. In fact, that is true on a lot of threads. One look at self and ten looks at Jesus. If we exalt Jesus, the Spirit will move.

The beauty of the Gospel and the plan of God to build His church, to prepare His Bride, to keep His people wholly blameless for the day of His coming is it's simplicity and it is intended by God to stay that way so that it can be propagated and used everywhere and by everyone, especially the poor whom He has chosen to be rich in faith.

Honestly, I would be hesitant to say the least to inject any of this into local churches around the world. They would be hard pressed to check any of it against the Scriptures "to see if it is so" as the Bereans did. It's all so personal and esoteric. It sounds lofty and unassailable but much is just hyper spiritualized introspection and musing.

Look at the warnings to the churches in Revelation and see if you see any addressing of all this stuff as problems or solutions for the churches. Faith, love, a hope in the future and faithfulness in the present is the solution. Lack of faith, lack of love and a simple lack of obedience is the simple problem that is of concern to Jesus for His Bride in the last day.

Robert said:
"Walk in the Spirit, grow in the knowledge of Jesus, have faith in promises and power, love one another in action, flee temptation, resist the devil, endure in faith and love through hardship, heed the warnings, place your hope completely in the grace to be revealed at His coming, pray and rejoice constantly, share and show Christ. Grow the church, get the church ready for her husband, encourage one another away from sin and unto holiness and love. Become like Jesus."

Amen.

//I spent the day reading through all of the writing of John the apostle, rereading the book "The Psychology of Redemption" by Chambers for the second time in 2 days, and have been thoroughly slain theologically. Chambers speaks of quickening, or an awakening that leads to the new birth. Many equate this with salvation and subsequently sanctification - I did for 20 years. I think I may have been mistaken.//

I've just re-read this one thanks Evan. Indeed, this teaching of the new birth by Chambers is easily overlooked when our mindset has been formed by Protestantism.

I had my awakening when I read 'The Royal Invitation' by Francis Havergal, kindle and highly recommended. I have an original copy I picked up in a charity shop. It had a profound effect.

Saved means saved from sin.